Outfitter reduns from CV cancellations?
General Topic
For you guys who have had hunts canceled because of travel bans, etc., how are your outfitters handling refunds, credit, whatever?
Gonna be a rough road for a lot of outfitters! I don’t see many good solutions.
I’m not even real confident that all of the fall season will happen. I have an AK sheep hunt in august, i feel its 50/50 at this point honestly.
—Jim
We have a bear hunt booked for early June, but we also have an alternate date set up for late August with the Outfitter. (Chris with Pine Acres in Ontario) Hopefully, things open up at least before mid August, but I’m confident that Chris will do everything he can to work with us.
I'm booked with Ken Moody in August in RSA. He's already assured his clients that he'll reschedule for 2021. I'm not worried about Ken, he's been awesome to deal with as I've had to reschedule before. I'm more worried about Delta airlines. . . .
Reason I asked is because the fishing lodge I go to in Chile is offering a rebooking next year for $1500 more, meaning they keep the $5K for this year, so next year will cost $6500.
Wondering how a $30K brown bear hunt rebook/refund would work?
Guess it depends on state law, the booking agreement, and/or how desperate the outfitter is. In fact, I wonder whether even trip insurance would cover an epidemic.
Interesting times we're in.
We will take all our booked clients in 2021 if necessary but sure hope it doesn’t come to that. Have a very busy Fall booked with bird, bear and deer clients; would seriously suck to lose a whole year’s revenue if the hunts can’t happen this year. 95% return clients, rest are directly referred so nobody panicking they know we’ll treat em right. I feel sorry for the young guys that are carrying a substantial debt load on camps or equipment bought recently. Friends that own large fishing camps are seriously hating it; they run 300- 400 guests/year and hire up to 40 people. Everyone says it is nobody’s fault we just gotta deal with it. Hello it is somebody’s fault: I’ll never buy anything made in China ever again if it is at all possible to avoid it. Or as Donald Trump said to a reporter, “Because it came from Chiiiinuh. I just want to be accurate.” He’s a beauty.
If anyone booked a 30K or higher priced Brown Bear hunt, you can be certain that those outfitters are going to work with the clients to the best of their ability. 30K is about the highest end of Brown Bear hunts and the outfitters offering a hunt in that price range are among the best. That said, not many will know for certain how it's going to shake out, the state is meeting next week to figure out how to handle tags, additional seasons, etc. in order to make as many people whole as possible, for the units that have draws or limited seasons anyhow.
The high-end trip insurance supposedly covers it. Airlines are giving full refunds, which is good. But most people don't buy the high-end insurance for 10% of the price.
I have no hunts planned for the spring but I had to cancel one fishing trip to Costa Rica and one to Honduras and although I'm not handling it one to Chile.
Full refunds on the Costa Rica and Honduras and the airline is giving full refund on that part. So that worked out. The Chili trip I don't know how that will turn out, no airfare involved just the lodge and fishing part and the leader of the small group is handling that part. I'll update when I know something
With not antivirus drug or preventive vaccine there is no telling how long CV will play out.
2020 hunts will be a crap roll- lots of variable have to be considered- virus life/status, season open/closures, allowable border crossings, airline flights available, allowable time off after a business restart, cash availability resulting from CV unemployment, etc.
About all one can do is stay well, stay prepared and be ready to roll, if the opportunity presents itself.
Wishing everyone the best outcome of scheduled hunts.
I don’t get how an outfitter can offer you a $5k hunt or fishing trip next year for $6500 and think that is fair. That’s a HUGE percentage price increase and only trying to recover lost revenue. I suppose if they can get away with it they will do it.
We had paid the full rental price for a house on Sanibel Island for the month of May. The management company allowed us to apply it to May in 2021. It's killing me to not be able to chase tarpon this year, but it's a small sacrifice to stay safe and healthy.
Matt
Steve, he said his fixed cost (insurance, leases, vehicles, overhead, paying guides, chefs, domestic help to keep them on his outfit, etc..) is $3000 per person per week, so he's splitting that cost. Seems a little high to me too. But he's also the lowest priced fishing in that entire area of Patagonia, and some charge $6500-7000 for a week, normally. So it's not out of line in the grand scheme, I guess.
Hey Bowsiters, man this is a difficult time for all of us! Some much more than others!! I can’t imagine what some people are going through?! Terrible stuff.
As for your hunt deposit I’m sure every outfitter would love to be able to send 100% refund checks back to all their customers or move all deposits to another year. That would absolutely be in the best interest, long term, of their livelihood! Period. No question. And I’m very happy for any outfitter who can do that.
BUT I ask you, for the full time outfitter who has dedicated his life to guiding and outfitting, has no other job options, wife doesn’t work outside the home, she looks after the kids and cooks, how does he survive? This could be literally like YOU having no job, no pay check, no unemployment insurance, no money coming in for maybe the next year. And the fixed yearly costs of your life continue to pile up? Would you be ok?
Thanks for weighing in, Mike. Best of luck to you and hopefully this will subside before your fall hunts start.
"BUT I ask you, for the full time outfitter who has dedicated his life to guiding and outfitting, has no other job options, wife doesn’t work outside the home, she looks after the kids and cooks, how does he survive? This could be literally like YOU having no job, no pay check, no unemployment insurance, no money coming in for maybe the next year. And the fixed yearly costs of your life continue to pile up? Would you be ok?"
Since you asked, I'll answer. First, your career choices aren't anyone else's responsibility. If your survival depends on client's deposits for services you have not rendered, yet, then perhaps you should consider a different career. Your client's may need that money just as much as you do, depending on their own financial situation. At the very least, those deposits should be applied to a later hunt, IMO. Sorry, if that upsets you, but that's how I see it.
Matt
Matt. Does anyone think their deposit checks are sitting idle in some interest bearing account for a year or two just waiting for the hunter to pull into camp. In many cases I expect the money simply is no longer accessible. Good people will do the best they can. That guarantees nothing.
Shortly before all of this craziness started, I booked a fly fishing trip to Labrador for August 2021. At the same time I purchased ' TRIP INSURANCE ' from Global Rescue, which at the time I thought was rather expensive. However, looking at all of the things that have gone on & are going on, I now believe it was a very good investment. Who knows when things will get back to normal & whether this situation will repeat itself again.
Just out of curiosity, have you filed a claim with globalrescue? Have you discussed with the outfitter? I am just wondering if you would have got the same financial satisfaction from the outfitter without the insurance.
—Jim
It's kind of off the original post. As much as I feel bad for anyone that's having financial issues thru this ordeal. I 100% agree with GG. Whether it's with a guide service, or any business having troubles currently.
I would assume that with such a recent booking the outfitter would probably make it right a lot more easily (for him) than say someone who had booked brown bear hunt moths ago, assuming much of that specific deposit was Already spent by the outfitter.
I had a similar situation and my outfitter called (I didn’t ask) and said he would not accept my deposit with current situation taking hold and would hold my spot without deposit until a later date.
—Jim
Personally I have hunt up in the air for august, while I may not like being out the 50% deposit if that happens it wont kill me. That said I think its everyone best interest to try to work together to remain whole. I am willing to work towards that end, even if the net result was some increase on my part
"Matt. Does anyone think their deposit checks are sitting idle in some interest bearing account for a year or two just waiting for the hunter to pull into camp. In many cases I expect the money simply is no longer accessible. Good people will finger best they can. That guarantees nothing."
I never implied that, Bou. I simply think the outfitter should honor the deposit for a later hunt, or return the deposit, like most any other business.
If you gave a contractor a deposit to paint your house next week, but he couldn't do it thru no fault of your own, wouldn't you expect your deposit back, or at least expect him to paint your house when he could?
Matt
I think it might vary from case to case. I have done a spring bear hunt in Manitoba with the same outfitter the last four years. In two of those years he went way out of his way to accommodate my issues. I am not about to bug him about however he wants to handle this year if, as seems likely, the hunt is cancelled. He's been more than fair in the past and I am sure will do the same now.
I paid in full, just prior to the outbreak, for my bear hunt this spring. Our outfitter said if the border does not open in time he will move our hunts to 2021, which is fair. Bottom line is we paid up front for a hunt and the outfitter needs to deliver the hunt or offer a full refund. Maybe the Canadian government can provide the outfitters with reimbursement for non-resident permits which the outfitters purchased but could not use this year.
I agree with GG as well.
Mike, I saw your recent post on another thread where you made some of the same points. I have always respected you as an outfitter, and would love to hunt with you some day. But to be honest I couldn't disagree with you more on this. I understand your situation and I feel for you, along with all outfitters in your boat, but to keep money that was given to you as a security deposit for a hunt that can't happen is stealing. If you were to have them come hunt at a later date then that is one thing. But to write off their hunt altogether and keep their money is just theft, plain and simple. The money was given for the agreement of a service rendered, in this case a hunting trip. If they back out, that is on them. If the hunt can't happen because of something like COVID, then it is incumbent on the outfitter to either issue a refund, or set up another hunt option with them. Taking the money with no return of service is unethical, even if the reason for the no return was beyond your control. No different if the client hunted with you, but then was unable to pay through no fault of their own. You would have provided a service to them for which they didn't pay. That goes both ways.
GG presented a great analogy. To piggy back, my brother is a contractor and has had to lay off all his guys. If his clients that had given him a deposit on a job to be performed, which can't happen now due to COVID, should he issue a refund or keep the money? I mean he has bills to pay and isn't sitting on piles of cash, right? The end does not justify the means. The homeowners have bills too. Regardless of whether or not my brother's livelihood may go under is not their problem, and would never justify him taking there money and not performing the work. Now when this is all over, if he is able to complete the work at a later date, that is a much different story, but that doesn't seem to be what you're saying. Maybe I am misinterpreting?
Mike, I’m not sure how your situation being an outfitter is different than anyone else? We are ALL in the same boat. How about that guy who saves for his trip for years and now you keep his money? How about that business person who now has to figure out how he pays for that inventory he bought right before this pandemic with no one to sell it to? Or how about that same person who is draining their own resources to continue paying staff that has been loyal for years? Your situation is no different than anyone else’s and you should suck it up like we all have to and do the right thing...whatever that might be.
Ollie hunting licences belong to the crown outfitters in Manitoba pay ahead for them but if there not used get refunded. Same as hunters that send deposits for a hunt or payed in full have a hunt coming to them imo if they can’t come this year some may have to wait a couple years depends how far out an outfitter is booked that’s fair imo. Most outfitters just get by with there business not much extra money lying around, hopefully most parties can find some kind of agreement that there both happy with. Blessings
I’ve already had to cancel a reservation for a cabin to fish for a week in early May. They gave me a gift certificate to use within a year and I was satisfied with that outcome.
I also have a drop moose hunt in September. While I’m optimistic this will be behind us by then, I’m also not buying anymore gear or plane tickets. Just kind of staying put.
This is going to be a tough go for lots of people. I wonder if it will be tougher for guys spending and maybe losing disposable vacation dollars or those using those dollars to support their family.
GG when you were an outfitter it sounds like you were prepared for something like this happening and it would have been no big deal. Might be helpful going into the future to let some of these outfitters know what they need to do to avoid this ever happening again to them
Hey guys please don’t attack me personally on this. I haven’t even said what I’m doing, I’m figuring that out and staying in touch with all of my hunters. I was simply trying to give a realistic insight into the other side of this. Many outfitters situations are very different, especially USA to Canada, big operators to small, part time or full time. I’m just saying that it may not even be possible for some outfitters to simply move all deposits to another year or send refund checks just like people can’t live without a job or any source of income for a year. Which many people may be facing. It’s a difficult time for all of us.
There should be no question -the deposits have to be honored.
Tutillik comes to mind. Several of you had skin in that game. Depends on the character of the outfitter.
Sleeve Lake is moving the hunts to next year if they cannot be completed this year. Solid character.
While I mostly agree with (GG) Matt, I bet bear outfitters have already spent money on bait that some of will go to waste. Hopefully the character of their hunters will realize this and help offset the increased costs with larger tips?
Wife & I had a Gulf Coast trip booked for mid March. Cancelled our lodging no problems. First year I had not set up hunts early & so glad. It's going to be tough on both outfitters & hunters as it's a new ball game with no real answers yet. I'll be fishing & hunting at home this year & any other trips will think about for next year. Take care all.
One thing is certain, this will separate the wheat from the chaf with respect to outfitters.
Matt.
I have two hunts this year with deposits out. Spring bear won't be happening but I'm not really worried about that one. A 50% deposit on a brown bear hunt in early September has be worried though. Nothing I can do but wait.
Im scheduled for a sheep hunt end of July in NWT. Crossing my fingers the border will be open by then
Mike, I hear where you are coming from for sure, and you are right you haven't said what you are doing, and I don't mean this as an attack on you personally. On the other hand the "other side perspective" your giving seems to have a moral flaw to it. From my perspective as a hunter, if an outfitter were to keep my deposit due to not being able to float it financially to the following year, that is unacceptable. Business is business, and that is why a solid practice in personal or professional life is to have a rainy day fund. For example, I'm pretty sure the bank wouldn't care the reason for my inability to pay my mortgage, if I can't pay they will foreclose. The personal and fiscal reasons of why an outfitter couldn't forward a hunt to the next year may be a sad and emotionally compelling argument, but if I had put $2k down on a hunt that ended up being lost because the outfitter has to pay his bills I would be beyond upset. You simply cannot justify it. If I can use it toward a future hunt, that would be a different thing entirely, but I don't think that's what you have been implying. Again, maybe I'm wrong? For sure it will need to be worked out to the satisfaction of both parties. All I'm trying to point out is that regardless of the outfitters position, there has to be some sort of workable deal. Whether it's a refund or a moved hunt. The idea that the hunter is going to forfeit his deposit because the outfitter may go under is not a valid reason to hold on to, and use their money. I am pretty confident it would not hold up in a court of law. I really feel for any outfitter in this position. It's a crummy deal the whole way around, and I am in no way trying to be calloused to the plight of the outfitter. I am, however, trying to show the moral and ethical side of things from a consumer - producer dynamic.
Deerslayer
Interesting comments. Probably all applicable in normal situations
Business is business and with this level of things Bankrupt is Bankrupt. May be the only way for some of the outfitters to survive to fight another day
IMO if the government shuts down your business then they should cover your losses.
Got a friend scheduled to chase Dall sheep in August ... what’s the over/under on that happening?
All because of the China virus... no fault of anyone but the Chinese. No one knew this was coming. Kinda hard to give back deposits when already spent on the upcoming season. Such as massive amounts of bait, food bought ahead of time for the hunters, vehicle insurance on many vehicles, camp and liability insurance and licenses to run a hunting business along with commercial property taxes. When a person dedicates his whole life to running an outfitting business full time, he cannot take a side job, unlike many others impacted by the China Virus. I've seen Outfits who have side jobs.... their success is not good. I understand where Mike is coming from.
I also understand where the booked hunter is coming from. Its their hard earned money ( Deposits )!!
Yes an Outfitter picks his profession, no one else did. The hunters pick certain outfitters because of this life dedication and awesome abilities. Outfitter risks devoting his life on his business, hunter risks there wont be a CHINA VIRUS when he picks this outfitter. ***Outfitter did exactly what the deposit was for, he spent the deposit on getting ready for the hunt....Again no ones fault!!!
Most Outfitters are booked for next year or near to it. How would an outfitter pencil in a 2020 hunter for 2021 when the dates are already penciled in. Tough dilemma. Especially when the Outfitter will need the income of 21' to catch up!! Most outfitters have only a certain amount of tags each year, can't double up to make up. Many outfitters are booked with Deer and cant take a Fall hunt. I am lucky that I have a Fall hunt available.
Maybe go on a moose hunt instead, wolf or Mule or Whitetail hunt if there is still openings with your outfitter. Its up to all to work things out. Good luck ALL.
I’ve got elk hunt booked Sept 18 in NM. If the country is still Locked down then, we are really in deep trouble.
I'm going to say what several have said. Just a little more blunt. Anyone who keeps a hunters money and does not offer a re booking time, just committed unarmed robbery. Its one thing if an outfitter works with a client and cannot get a re bookng date. In which he should return the fee charged. Minus the required, non refundable deposit that comes with all outfitted hunts.
Its is that simple. No figuring it out. No scenario's insinuating it's a trip insurance issue to get funds back. I get the deposit being kept. I have no problem with that. Its the prepaid funds past the deposit that's already been paid that really isn't even up fr debate. Work to reschedule or give back what doesn't belong to you. For the obvious reason affecting every single one of us.
I don't mean to sound callous. I empathize with every outfitter facing this. I can surely relate. As can everyone else for the most part. However, all that aside, I say join the crowd. If this keeps up, I'm bankrupt too. However, that in no way entitles me to other people's money.
Let's pray this changes so we can all look back at this as an uncomfortable, scary, difficult time for the whole world. And, not a financial disaster for many of us.
This kind of thing is why I will never pay in full before taking a hunt again. I hate it when an outfitter wants the full amount 60 days in advance. I am happy to pay the balance in cash on arrival.
I am out $10k on a trip that has nothing to do with Covid. The outfitter simply got sick and then got over extended. He isn’t able to honor the trip. He said he would refund my money and then sent me bounced check and has since filed bankruptcy.
Now he doesn’t answer the phone, oddly enough. He has changed his name and is back in business.
I honestly think he is a good person and had good intentions. I don’t believe he has the money to recover. I expect several outfitters will be in the same boat.
Bad things happen to good people. This sucks for everyone.
I am very fortunate to have first world problems. My elephant and leopard hunts got moved to next year. I doubt my sheep hunt in July is going to happen. If not, I will have too many hunts for next year.
I may have to retire and hunt all next year.
All in all life is good. I hope everyone gets through this safe.
BTW, this shit is real. We sold 25 Refrigerated vans to NYC to store bodies last week. Those issues are real.
Happy Easter!
If hunters can purchase trip insurance, why couldn't an outfitter arrange similar insurance to cover his season in the case of circumstances out of his control. Roll it in as part of the cost of the hunt.
"GG when you were an outfitter it sounds like you were prepared for something like this happening and it would have been no big deal. Might be helpful going into the future to let some of these outfitters know what they need to do to avoid this ever happening again to them."
It's really just common business sense, RK. Any business model that relies on customer deposits to survive day to day, before their services are rendered, is a poor model. That's even worse than living paycheck to paycheck. It's akin to living on credit, with no way of paying back the debt.
I don't mean to sound unsympathetic to outfitters, but they really aren't any different than any other businesses that may be struggling right now. As I said, this will separate the wheat from the chaff in many industries, not just commercialized hunting. Call it natural selection for capitalism. The strong and most well-adapted will survive.
Matt
Services are being rendered. Paid for by deposits. Deposits are used to stock up on large amounts of bait for the Spring. Paying for all insurances ( vehicle, liability, cabins etc ) for the upcoming season. Commercial property taxes. Purchasing hunters food for the season. Very intense spending in prep for hunters arrival. Exactly what the seasons deposits are for and why they are not refundable. But most will give alternate dates in case of emergencies.
I wonder if in the future we might see hunters insisting that any deposit money go into an escrow account dependent on delivery of the hunt. The outfitter could, perhaps, go to a bank and show the escrow account as collateral (Of a sort) against an operating loan. Obviously this would increase the overall cost of a hunt but I suspect that banks an outfitter might talk to would be in a far better position to analyze the outfitters business fitness, ability to handle the unexpected in particular, than the average hunter.
Had a spring bear hunt scheduled in New Brunswick. Got ahold of my outfitter moved me to 2021 no problem at all. Like he said we are all in this together. Not his fault my fault anyone’s just the way it is. Outfitters and clients going to have to work together. I do plan on paying my hunt off in full soon to help him out a little at this time. I’m sure these guys are still going to bait sites keep them cleaned and shooting lanes cleared. I am sure all reputable standup guides and outfitters out there will do there best to accommodate there clients and we owe them the same! Have a great day all and Happy Easter!
I dont have to worry about this year cause I didn't booked anything. Just being a smart ----ss.
"Services are being rendered. Paid for by deposits. Deposits are used to stock up on large amounts of bait for the Spring. Paying for all insurances ( vehicle, liability, cabins etc ) for the upcoming season. Commercial property taxes. Purchasing hunters food for the season. Very intense spending in prep for hunters arrival. Exactly what deposits are for and why they are not refundable. But most will give alternate dates in case of emergencies."
That may be your business model, Spike, but it's not every outfitter's model. In every business I've been involved in, including outfitting, customer deposits were considered an obligation to provide goods or services, or to refund the deposit, not a revolving credit card to pay for upfront business expenses. My partner and I always used proceeds from the previous year to pay for upfront expenses in the current year. Deposits were never considered useable cash until our services were rendered and our obligation was fulfilled.
Matt
I would not use next years deposits for this years hunt. Last years deposits went to rendering and fulfilling last years hunt. This years deposits are used to prepare for and fulfill this years hunt. There's no reasonable argument Grey Ghost by an Outfitter. That's why I have a plan to fulfill the hunters contract and offer them a hunt, no matter how long it takes. Been my plan since before closure of the border. Savings are used for emergencies, such as this China Virus, not planned on preparing for a hunt.
An outfitter deems his deposits NON REFUNDABLE... but every effort has to be put forth in full filling a hunt. Outfitter has not fulfilled his obligation until he has actually had his hunter show up for the hunt.
My point Grey Ghost of my other post was that the deposits have already been used for this year. They are already obliging..... but the end game has not happened yet, the actual hunt. So outfitter is still obliged!!
An Outfitter who does not fulfill his commitment to his clients, no matter what the reason, doesn't plan on being around long!!!
Deposits are fine Matt. And, should not be refundable if an alternate date cannot be set. If every outfitter used his money to buy these things ahead, he'd go bankrupt with typical cancellations. All kinds of guys talk about going hunting right up to the time to pay up and get in the truck. No deposit means massive no shows. So, deposits isn't a poor business model. I'd venture to say its the definition of a perfect business model. Its a insurance policy in itself. Its a smart and honest way to take a commitment and plan for a persons participation from 1000's of miles away and months out.
I had a brown bear hunt in May booked. Outfitter was really good to work with. He offered me a full refund or the option to roll it over to next year, so I took the option to roll it over till next year
I've never been a guide (I can barely find game for myself), but I have been a contractor. Our contracts always stated that deposits were refundable, MIINUS materials or time spent specifically on your project.
On most projects, work would be performed for the client almost immediately upon contract signing. Just because I wasn't at your site, didn't mean I didn't spend a lot of money on your project.
If the client wanted to back out, or the trip couldn't be shifted into a future trip, I would completely understand an outfitter wanting to retain some portion of a deposit for services rendered.
"My point Grey Ghost of my other post was that the deposits have already been used for this year."
Look, if your agreement with your client is that you will use their deposit to pay for upfront supplies for their hunts, then you are obligated to either provide them their deposit's worth of those supplies, carry over their deposits to a later hunt, or refund their money. Personally, I think that is a risky business agreement, for both you and your clients, but if that's how you do it, I wish you the best.
Under these circumstances, I can't think of any ethical rationale for an outfitter to just keep deposits, with no other obligation to their clients, which is what Mike was suggesting in his original post.
Matt
Good people will do the best they can and make things work out OK. Nobody is getting up in the morning trying to screw the other guy. The intentions are right and the situations complex.
"So, deposits isn't a poor business model. I'd venture to say its the definition of a perfect business model. Its a insurance policy in itself. Its a smart and honest way to take a commitment and plan for a persons participation from 1000's of miles away and months out."
I agree, and I never said otherwise. Deposits are fine, and useful to keep both parties committed. But they should be considered insurance for both the outfitter and the client, in case either party doesn't fulfill their commitment.
What I disagree with is a business model that spends deposits on upfront business expenses, with no recourse for the client, if the hunt can't happen thru no fault of either party. That's why we always treated deposits as a debt until our obligation was fulfilled. There was never a time in which we couldn't have refunded every dime of deposits in a scenario like this. But that's just how we ran our business.
Matt
Had previously put a deposit for a moose hunt in NL with the former owner. When a major health issue arose with going on the hunt, the new owner(s) refunded my deposit; no questions. Was very appreciative of that. Have not heard anything about our spring bear hunts in QC as borders are closed and any travel within QC is highly restricted. Believe that things will drastically have to change for the better over the next six weeks before any restrictions are lifted anywhere.
Using deposits to fund upcoming hunt is only risky if you don't have a savings account!! Savings are never used for what's intended them to be used for... retirement!! Back in 2008 many had good savings. What happened? The savings ended up being used for surviving through a crisis, such as a China Virus. That's life.
Using a deposit to fund current years hunt makes sense. If an outfitter uses his savings in place of deposits, he's going to have a problem!!! Means he spent his deposits recklesly. Especially when he comes upon a once in a Century China Virus.
My guess is that if everyone tries to work together we can get through this. This pandemic touched every single person in the world one way or another. Some people are going to be hurt badly, some not so much. Let us just pray this Easter Sunday for Gods protection through this .
"Using a deposit to fund current years hunt makes sense."
I agree, but only AFTER the hunt is completed, not before. If an outfitter needs to spend deposits before he's fulfilled the hunt, without a backup plan to reimburse his clients in case of unforeseen hardships like this, then he needs to reevaluate his business plan, or perhaps his career choice, IMO.
Matt
I absolutely cannot comprehend keeping any of the money....at bare minimum a full credit for future services. Outfitters (and I love and appreciate them) are no different than any other business. Of course there are always variables, as long as they are realistic and not manufactured.
Grey Ghost, I 100% agree. Must have a backup plan!! If an outfitter has never had to deal with this kind of issue, gotta give him time to figure it out.
My mainland brown bear hunt for early June is in limbo. Month of May bear hunts were already cancelled by the government, but the outfitter is clinging to slim hopes for June. Looks more doubtful by the day. He's already booked full for 2021 and 2022, so where to move all the people who've paid their 20k for this year's hunts? Hopefully the Board of Game meeting this coming Tuesday will furnish outfitters with the answers they need to move forward. No doubt the outfitters also need an answer about all their NR hunts that start in August (sheep, moose, caribou, etc).
In many cases, a hunt deposit is fairly substantial amount 25% or 50% due well in advance of services rendered. I understand the rationale for it however I am not sure that use model is correct. The idea that outfitters are the only ones that have overhead is totally ridiculous, we all have overhead and that doesn't mean we get to charge before services are rendered.
All that said this is a very novel situation that we all find ourselves in together and it's an all our best interests to work together to work towards mutually agreeable solutions. Some cases that may take some compromise and we will all be better for it
Life in a Small Town - Covid-19: [Insert your business / part accordingly]
Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody is living on credit.
A tourist visiting the area drives through town, stops at the motel, and lays a $100 bill on the desk saying he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs to pick one for the night. As soon as he walks upstairs, the motel owner grabs the bill and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher.
The butcher takes the $100 and runs down the street to retire his debt to the pig farmer.
The pig farmer takes the $100 and heads off to pay his bill to his supplier, the Co-op.
The guy at the Co-op takes the $100 and runs to pay his debt to the local prostitute, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer her "services" on credit.
The hooker rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill with the hotel owner.
The hotel proprietor then places the $100 back on the counter so the traveler will not suspect anything.
At that moment the traveler comes down the stairs, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, picks up the $100 bill and leaves. No one produced anything. No one earned anything...
However, the whole town is now out of debt and now looks to the future with a lot more optimism.
And if the tourist was from NYC, everyone is probably now infected. :-(
Exactly Stekewood. Imagine that 100$ bill had the virus on it. That’s exactly how it starts in small towns. All because someone couldn’t stay close to home for a few weeks.
Do you guys really think that this virus is going to be “gone” in a few weeks?
—Jim
I had an Alaskan baited bear hunt booked for this year and I was fully payed up for it. My outfitter who is an amazing guy by the way ( jonah stewart) is trying to work something out to get me up there in the fall for another species. If it means me kicking in a couple more dollars I will do what I can to make it work. I know he’s got a family to feed as well and I’m going to try my best to make it work. He’s been great every step of the way with communication We are in this together and hopefully it will be behind us soon.
Jtreeman, 1918 Pandemic lasted 3 years!!! This one will be quicker to resolve if the government plans work. Shutting down the world.The governments propped up the stock markets. Held off the crash till the late 20's. Everyone needs to be carefull after this. The soldiers came home from war and brought on another wave of the Spanish Flu. We wont have that problem this time. Spanish Flu died out because no one more to infect!!
Where I work now a normal 1 to 3 day job is $10k-$15k to the customer. Part of that pays for product, insurance, fuel, wages, shop, vehicles, etc.
It’s a minimum of 30 days to get paid by the customers.
When I worked in construction we wouldn’t charge until the work started. And then same thing. It took a little time to get paid.
I understand getting a deposit ahead of time. But outfitting is a business just like everything else. I would hope most outfitters and hunters can come to terms and make the best out of it.
When all is said and done there will be hunters that get screwed and outfitters that go out of business. And this won’t be the only industry this happens to.
Sucks all the way around.
Outfitting is abit different than other industries. The entire years income comes from a couple of months. Expenses happen year round.
On the other hand hunters give money for services. Hunts can't just move all the time
Outfitter leases land for 50k dollars. Spends 25k dollars in prep for a successful year. Gets 75k in deposits from hunters for the year. Lives off the additional 75k when hunters pay the balance for their hunts. If the hunt doesn’t happen, should the outfitter eat the 75k he spent in prep for the hunters? It could be argued either way. Cost of doing business? For the hunter? For the outfitter?
Someone earlier used the analogy of someone painting your house and then not being able to perform the agreed upon job due to nobody’s fault. What if it required the contractor to purchase items? What if it was a kitchen renovation and the contractor spent 25k in supplies? Who eats that 25k? Pretty applies to applies comparison to a bear guide that spent “insert amount” on bait, fuel, labor, gas, etc in prep for your bear hunt.
My leases are due no matter if guys come or not. If I dont pay them I will lose them. If I lose them you dont get to come next year either. Guides are also going to find out what clients they can count on and who they cant.
Outfitting is abit different than other industries. The entire years income comes from a couple of months. Expenses happen year round.
On the other hand hunters give money for services. Hunts can't just move all the time either other bookings by outfitter or hunters schedule
I can't believe some of you think this is a bad business model. Some outfitters have figured out a way to get a 0% interest operating loan with no payback terms should something crazy happen.
I'll bet there are some farmers that would love to get something like that!
Don't farmers have crop insurance?
I think we all knew the costs when we chose our professions, and hopefully the wise made provisions in case their Plan A didn't work out. My late father always taught me to have backup and I've always lived with that mindset. Any outfitter with integrity should refund as much as possible, especially if they have a long term investment in the business. Some outfitters do very well and spend much of the off season in vacation mode in between booking clients and trade shows. Meanwhile, Joe the blue collar guy just spent 8-12 hrs a day working his butt off for several years to afford a hunt that's over in a week. The other type of client may have so much money that he didn't even flinch when it cost $30k for a brown bear hunt.
I have a small business that currently employs about 35 people. We will not recover the revenue we are losing during the shutdown. Yet, our clients will get everything that they prepaid for once this is over. No questions asked. One thing I’ve learned in 36 years of doing it, is that sometimes you have to take one on the chin to build and maintain a reputation. It hurts, but you can survive it. It rewards you in the long run.
100% agreed Steve!! Businesses ( Outfitters) will be judged on how they react to this issue. Short term they get to keep the money for no return to client. Long term, business runs out. But I am sure no Bowsite Sponsor will run with clients money. Just give time to figure it out. An outfitter who's posting on this thread is not one who will run away with funds. Wish more outfitters would post their comments. Might help the situation a bit.
Not at all. I'm saying, if the agreement is the outfitter will use my deposit to buy supplies for a hunt that never happens thru nobody's fault, then he owes me those supples on a hunt at a later date, or he owes me a refund. Not sure why that's so hard to understand.
What if those supplies include a non-refundable lease for the year? What if those supplies include bear bait that’s already been purchased?
I’d be cautious about a hunt at a later date as well. I assume that means this years clients as well as next years clients. Sounds crowded!
I tried to say before. Difference with outfitters is they have a small window to make money for the year, miss that window and its a years income. Other businesses also lose money, but they also have of the year to make some money they won't loose a years income
So far this thread seems to place all on the outfitter.One can plan for just about anything but an act of God followed by a world in panic.How do you plan for that?A business with 100% of its business just canceled.That cannot be made up next month because the season is over.A plan usually involves unforeseen circumstances but 7.8 billion people and countless trillions of dollars lost due too a "pandemic" March 10th the calls started and lasted for two weeks with 99% cancelations.One guy did come out and complete a hunt.A quarter of the clients just called their cc and canceled the payment.Now those can go to dispute resolution if I wanted.The rest just cancelled most wanted their money back a small few asked to book next year. Many were here in the state all ready.Some did have to travel from one state to another. I have had several careers(construction,restaurant,outfitter and charter fishing). Outfitting is the most volatile of them.Deposits played a part in three the careers.I have seen the "deposit"change several times in all.It used to be easy to sign a contract and get a deposit.Then the scam artist became more prevalent which made it harder. Scammers are on both side's by the way. Deposits have slowly become a temporary term and payment.What I mean is that it's no longer deposit by a client to commit to the balance or show up for the hunt.Clients want to know if the deposit is refundable.If they get drunk,don't feel like going or get a better offer can I get my deposit back.Without a deposit it's 50/50 if client shows up.With a deposit there's no difference anymore.CC companies will just credit the card holder then ask what happened. How do I lease land alone forget buy supplies,vehicles,labor,etc.. This is not all on the outfitter all parties should be liable and very flexible. Whether this is legitimate pandemic is another topic.But to say we haven't planned should be no one's response unless you know for a fact. Here is some background over 20 years in outfitting.Been through three partners which is basically a divorce and survived.South central Florida been through 5 hurricanes with direct impact on ranch/lodge.Several more with indirect impacts.Went through Sept 11th. which the whole country did.Now a "pandemic" not to mention another a few years ago"zeka" which was brought here courtesy of Obama whom I and others lived through. Sorry for being so long and I waited to respond to see what was said.I'm not saying outfitters keep the deposits but it's not all on the outfitter. Best laid plans often go awry
You are lying if you want us to think you schedule a hunt, agree to a deposit and pay it, then expect the outfitter to start preparing for your hunt when you arrive to actually hunt. Period.
Things happen which is why deposits are required for services that require preplanning and preparation.
It a good thing there is no deposit required on common sense or a lot of money would be lost by some people above.
Some of you are tough on these outfitters! I guess they are also obligated to pay their employees' salaries while they are not working. Gosh, maybe I can use that on my wife's employer who laid her off?
Some great outfitters here, and if they go out of business who knows what will replace them.
Matt, you used to build houses. Robin and I built two together. Builders always required a hefty deposit and to pay as additional material was ordered.
Maybe outfitters need to include additional language in the future for incidents like what we are experiencing now just to insert some common sense where it is lacking.
Matt,
We are getting some where now. You, like outfitters used deposits for up front expenses. The outfitters are fulfilling their contractual obligations by doing the same. Realistically they can say they are ready to deliver the rest of their obligations, all we have to do is show up. Our showing up is not their responsibility. Legally I bet they could make an argument that our grievance is with a third party, the government, as they have no more of an obligation to make sure we show up than we do.
Evan, please don't use this against me:-)
Ha... good point Frank!!!
Mike,
I haven't bashed you, and I'm sorry if you've perceived it that way. I've only commented on what you implied in your original post, which was:
As for your hunt deposit I’m sure every outfitter would love to be able to send 100% refund checks back to all their customers or move all deposits to another year. That would absolutely be in the best interest, long term, of their livelihood! Period. No question. And I’m very happy for any outfitter who can do that.
To me, that implied you may not be able to offer those two solutions to your clients. That would be unacceptable, if I were one of your clients, for the reasons I've stated.
I'm sure you'll do the right thing.
Matt
Frank,
I'm not following your logic. I wasn't using client's money to pay for up front expenses. I was using my own money.
Anyway, it looks like the moderators are making a mess of this good discussion, so I'm done.
Stay safe, healthy, and honest out there, guys.
Matt
Matt, you and I agree on one thing on this post. The moderators have done their best to take an intelligent, civilized discussion and ruin it. The way bowsite is going lately. My prediction is it won’t turn out good in the end unfortunately. Why would they mess with this post? I’d love to hear from them.
In what way did they mess with this?
The disappear posts are making this site broaderline useless. It bad enough the syntax is archaic and it already impedes forum dialogue.
Frank, i like your reasoning as the fault isn't with the outfitter. There doubtfully was a condition of the contract that the border be open. I am sure plenty of in-country people hunt too that put deposits down and their hunts can still go on. I am not saying it would make good business to keep the deposits. But from a legal point of view, if the outfitter is ready, willing, and able to produce the agreed upon services; how is it his fault if the client doesn't show up? It is like when you book a room at a hotel but then your flight gets cancelled and you don't show up, they charge you anyway. It's not their fault you didn't show up. This isn't much different.
Ryanrc, It’s not the same. Those folks aren’t just not showing up. They have no choice - so why should an outfitter keep all of the money? If they’ve actually spent justifiable, documented $$ for hard costs in advance that cannot be “saved” to use in the future, then those can potentially be deducted. Soft costs and living expenses should not be in the discussion. Most hunters, especially the good folks on this site are reasonable as I believe most of the sponsors are. Bottom line, it’s going to be as tough on the hunters as the outfitters.
Of course as far as a cancelled hunt goes it is not as tough on the hunters. The hunters are out a vacation. They probably take 3-4 a year. It was purely a loss of discretionary funds to them. The outfitters in many cases are out their source of income. Their ability to feed shelter and educate their families in some cases. It’s a hobby to us. A livelihood to them.
Sorry Grant, what you’re missing is that those same hunters have lost income -plenty of it (except the wealthy) and even jobs in many cases. Also many traveling hunters are business folks who are now faced with survival. It’s the same on both sides. I see no difference. I feel just as bad for both.
Hers my final thought and what I believe to be the right answer.... use the Golden Rule to find the solution which is : “Treat each other EXACTLY as you would want to be treated”. If we all do this, the solution will work for everyone.
My recommendation is to just communicate with your outfitter. Come to an agreeable resolution and try to move forward. If it means putting up a little more money or waiting longer to take the trip. Be flexible. Most guys are hard working and have the best intentions.
Well, like a number of folks I have a few hunts booked for this year that are less and less likely to happen. Trying to be calm, cooperative and reasonable. Not looking for a refund, but will I have the opportunity to push the hunts to a later date - we’ll see. Some will absolutely work with me, others??? As with all business deals - everyone’s your buddy until something goes wrong. Then clients find out quickly who they’re really dealing with.
I’m also being realistic. Under the weight of this current crises some clients are going to lose deposits and some outfitters are gonna go out of business.
But going forward guys shouldn’t fall for the total BS we see being peddled by some outfitters and their apologist cronies trying to justify not developing options and just keeping deposits. Take note of any outfitters being totally self-centered and saying “that’s tough, I’ve got bills to pay.” Any potential client would be a complete fool to do business with them ever again. They’ve already shown the disregard they have for clients.
Also get a kick out of the many emails and online postings I’m still seeing that are pushing hunts that are not likely to happen while simultaneously pushing trip insurance. Now that governments are restricting everything and COVID-19 is a known hazard good luck getting new valid coverage.
So are these outfitters flat out broke by February every year? There is no projected overhead for the next year that these guys save and plan ahead for from the previous years clients? The only way they can acquire stale donuts and fast food fry grease is if I and five other clients, give them a five thousand dollar deposit? I thought a deposit was to protect the outfitters from saving limited space for someone who might just back out at the last minute and take a spot that could've been used by a paying customer. Is that not why we put deposits down?
Working out a deal with my outfitter was easy. AGF cancelled the hunt but as of Friday I was told they hadn’t made a decision as to whether they were going to refund my hunting license and brown bear tag. They said they were working on a decision. The lady told me the license and tag was good all year. I told her that the outfitter was fully booked for the fall and by being a NR, by law I had to use an outfitter to hunt brown bear. I’m going to be pretty pissed if they don’t refund it because they are the ones that cancelled the spring hunts
Seriously who in the hell can see in the future for what's happening right now? I know I didn't my company will survive for now our customers don't know. This conversation has gotten ridiculous ..
Be glad you weren't all paid up and scheduled to climb Everest in May.
Looks like my Brown Bear Hunt is being moved to next spring from what my Alaska guide is telling me. Will know more soon. Not losing any money.
This is an interesting topic for sure. Could not imagine keeping someone’s deposit without the option to reschedule. I can see a situation where Outfitters could be forced into bankruptcy over this and the deposit refund would be decided by a bankruptcy court. The question of when is the deposit money earned by Outfitter is complicated for sure. In my situation we are just starting to plant 50-60 food plots for this falls hunts. If we didn’t plant I would feel that is not living up to the deal I made to manage our land to produce the best hunting possible. Guiding and outfitting done correctly is a pretty low profit business model. I can definitely see a lot of Outfitters that lose a whole seasons income not surviving this. I have seen a Force Majure clause in contracts before I guess this is why.
I have an Alaskan spring Grizzly hunt booked in '21. I know my outfitter is in a pickle, because he can't reschedule the '20 hunts in '21, …...those slots are already taken. I called him and volunteered to push mine to '22, if it would help him out. He was very appreciative of the offer. I figure if we really are all in this together, then this was a small way for me to offer to help. Plus.....I'll have no problem filling that time with another hunt for something else.
Nice going Alan as if my opion means anything :)
I spoke with the Assistant Director of Alaska Fish and Game today. They are having a Commission meeting tomorrow to see if and how they can handle refunds for hunters that had already bought their hunting licenses and bear permits.
Spike Buck, the us/Canadian border was closed long before outfitters need to buy food and bait for spring bear camps.
I missed what was taken out of this post but that is pretty chicken sh$t if you ask me. Especially if it was just good conversation and opinions.
One thing that doesn't seem fair is to point the finger at an outfitter, and lecture him on having a poor business plan because he depends on deposits as part of his making a living. Maybe the hunter had a poor business plan when he didn't get trip insurance, or maybe the hunter had a poor business plan when he can't survive or feed his family or pay his mortgage because an elephant hunt was more important to him than having money in the bank to weather a storm like this. Ya can't on one hand blame a guy for not being able to stay afloat if your own boat has holes in it..
Having said that, how about we just eliminate outfitting/guiding and go to DIY on all game animals? Limit access via lotteries, jack the price of tag if need be, and let the hunter be 100% responsible for his food, travel, access, tags, and every other logistic pertaining to the hunt.
Fairly certain my opinion will be deleted, but to keep deposits for a trip the Hunter didn’t willingly choose to cancel and not offer changed dates or refunds, is a terrible business model and would be a business I would never book with in the future. This whole situation sucks for all parties involved, but that’s no different than theft in my eyes. I own a vacation rental that I’m hemorrhaging money on currently with thousands of lost cancellations and refunds, but it was my choice to invest in this and the travelers couldn’t legally get to my property currently. I even chose to refund those who cancelled mid summer trips after bans may be lifted, simply because it was the right thing to do.
Ollie, I bought all my supplies in January and early February on way back from shows. Most of my bait comes out of the States. Truck, commercial and liability insurances have all been paid for at the beginning of the year. Commercial Property Taxes already paid.
I do not offer meals at camp for the hunters, so that is not an issue for me.... but is for many others. We do own a restaurant a half mile from camp. Best Outfitters have to buy their quality food for their clients well in advance to get best quality. As this is the time all camps and hunting outfitters are filling their freezers. Many outfitters just bought brand new equipment such as ATV's, Boats and Motors, generators to run their camps. They still have to pay China Virus or not!!
As another Outfitter in this thread mentioned: Outfitting is his business... not part time like most others. He knows to gets camp supplies and Bear Bait well in advance to get the best. The part timers wait and get the least quality. It shows in their lack of success!!
Also paid income tax on most of the deposits for this year. Best outfitters have dates for next year penciled in already before the China Virus arrived. They also, if they do not have Fall Bear Hunt, have their Fall season booked with Mule Deer, Whitetails and so on. So they cannot move hunters to the Fall.
BUT..... I am lucky enough to be able to offer a Quality Fall Bear hunt to my hunters. ALL my hunters will not go without. I guarantee it. It might take longer than 2020 and maybe into 2022, but they will get to hunt.
Everyone has been effected by this, everyone has their own issues... sometimes a person cannot see past their own issues. Give time for others to adjust!!
I also understand some hunters might not be able to afford a hunting trip after this mess. Talk to your outfitter and figure out alternate plans.
It was also our Families choice to get into the restaurant business here in Vermilion Bay. We shuttered the doors till the China Virus gets out of here. The business we lose due to the shut down at the restaurant will never be recovered. Can't make it up... BUT, as SteveB said... it was our choice to pick our professions!! When you have a business in the province of Ontario.... its best to hurry up and pay off your mortgage and be ready for a downturn.
***As for Grey Ghost "MATT", you couldn't make it in the Outfitting business, so you bailed out!!! Blamed all your outfitting problems on your partner, typical... You can be a "Rocking Chair Critic" all you want!!! Madly tapping on your keyboard. But you would NEVER match Mike or I in the Outfitting Business.....
Have patience with your outfitter.... give him time to move thing around dates wise and everyone will be happy. Good luck to all and Happy Hunting.
Dakota, that’s been happening a lot lately. I’m not really sure what is going on with the mods. I Fail to understand why good, and for the most part polite, debate is being removed. It’s almost like if we dare to have an opinion about COVID-19 then the posts get yanked. Why take away the community forum, and then not allow a bunch of guys with nothing but time on their hands to have some healthy discussion about current world events. How is it any different than if we were all sitting around the campfire talking about non-hunting things. Pretty sure I’m not the only one in this boat, but when I am in elk camp hanging out with my buds, bow hunting is a large part of the discussion, but not the only part. Seems like a pretty liberal mentality to squelch any type of debate or opinions you may not agree with. I honestly have learned a lot from this thread and have appreciated both points of view. I really wish things would stop being edited it out so much.
For the third time what was censored out of this thread other than my prior two requests asking what was censored out of this thread
Bou it seems that lots of posts have been removed or lost. My thread asking about travel restrictions on turkey hunting also disappeared
Grant,
Just a few posts including one of mine but mostly an exchange between Mike and GG. I surmise because they went a little into politics more so than the original topic. The pattern I see is those in charge not allowing the BGF to become the CF. Hopefully you can read this before it is removed.
“Be glad you weren't all paid up and scheduled to climb Everest in May.”
Kevin, I threaded the needle on my trip to Nepal. The year before and the year after I went had tragic ice fall collapse and earthquakes.
I was lucky and bagged 3 peaks and got to 26k camp 4.
Frank, I suspect they were deleted because the discussion made a sponsor of this website look really bad.
Bou, Mike U. had a post about how he has devoted his life to outfitting and his wife doesn't work (she cooks and watches the kids). If they don't get to run hunters and have to refund all deposit how are they supposed to live? They have to eat too. I'm paraphrasing a bit, but that was the gist of it.
Lots of people disagreed with that stance (rightfully so IMO) and it started a good debate that's been ruined.
I actually had a couple posts deleted defending mike u. Nothing posted by anybody deserved to be deleted.
My deleted comment was simply a response to the criticism that outfitters should have been better prepared for this. If the rest of the country followed that same advice, our government wouldn't be sending out trillions of dollars to households and businesses. We are in this together, I bet all of us take at least a pinch. honestly, I am going to miss my drive up to MB, will miss the bear hunt and very much miss the Sleeve Lake crew, who are my people (inside chuckle there), but it really is not that important to me in the scheme of things. I most desire Robin, myself and our family and friends to come through this with good health!
"Fairly certain my opinion will be deleted, but to keep deposits for a trip the Hunter didn’t willingly choose to cancel and not offer changed dates or refunds, is a terrible business model and would be a business I would never book with in the future. This whole situation sucks for all parties involved, but that’s no different than theft in my eyes. I own a vacation rental that I’m hemorrhaging money on currently with thousands of lost cancellations and refunds, but it was my choice to invest in this and the travelers couldn’t legally get to my property currently. I even chose to refund those who cancelled mid summer trips after bans may be lifted, simply because it was the right thing to do."
Worth repeating, IMO. ^^^
Matt
I can’t imagine an outfitter cancelling a hunt without offering to reschedule. But I also by no means think hunters should request a refund. They were going to spend it anyway. It’s not like the $1000 or maybe more is going to change much for one hunter but collectively it’s a huge number, devastating to an outfitter. I feel sorry for the ones who are feeding and doctoring livestock.
I think everyone has a basic idea of costs that their outfitter has to deal with. If for some reason you absolutely cannot reschedule that is understandable. But if you can I’d say do unto others and reschedule letting the deposit ride.
There’s a difference. I said reschedule not cancel. You lose nothing. The bigger difference is that you cancelled. At that point it becomes a matter of the terms of your contract. I hate poor communication more than anyone! There’s no excuse for it. I’m not sure it’s valid reason to cancel your contract either. Or legal reason maybe I should say. I don’t know when your job was scheduled to start but when you have something like that done.... just like when you book a hunt you reserve time on a limited schedule. In states where the hunting license was by draw it’s nearly impossible to fill the spot. If it can be filled then ok you should get a refund. But if the business owner and his employees are sitting around next week doing nothing then that’s not the case. No refund. A deposit is non refundable for hunting outfitters. Just as lots of deposits are. And an outfitter should issue a refund under these circumstances if a hunter can’t reschedule. Your circumstances are completely different. And remember that even though he may not have purchased materials yet he still has operating costs which he is going to pay for during the time on his schedule that you reserved. Have you asked to reschedule?
I met my bear outfitter in 1996 in caribou camp and started bear hunts with him in 1999. Since then have hunted 12 times with him up to 2013. Booked with two buddies for this spring. QC is a mess with the pandemic and travel within QC very restricted not to mention closed borders. Would never ask him to refund my deposit though I cannot speak for the others. Best case; we get moved to 2021. During the last 21 years I have worked with/for 5 Canadian outfitters and 1 US one. All were decent, hard working folks...honest as the day is long. There was a 6th Canadian one that turned out to be questionable. Please do not bash the spring bear outfitters. We all need to work through a mess that is no one's fault.
A lot depends on outfitter and what and where they are hunting. Also method of hunting. My brown bear hunt was a boat hunt.
An outfitter has bills they have to pay. In my example , boat payments, mooring payments , state outfitter fees, insurance payments on boat and hunters, National forest fees , boat fuel , I guess my point is a lot of outfitters have year round bills to pay but usually only have a month or 2 in spring and a couple months during fall to have hunters for income to help them pay 12 months of bills.
Same go for bear or cat hunts with dogs. Even though they can only hunt 2-4 months they have to feed dogs 365 days a year, vaccinations, vet bills , etc.
Mule, your point is valid. If I were in the hunter’s shoes I would be very satisfied with a rescheduled hunt. But if the Outfitter took my deposit and never gave me the option of utilizing my deposit for a future hunt, I believe that is wrong no matter how you slice it.
Deerslayer,
Agree with you, and let's report here the ones that take your money and do nothing, as well as the ones who go above and beyond.
We need to look out for each other, when we don't that's when dirt bag outfitters get away with not delivering what was promised or keeping bear pelts of multiple hunters.
Our Outfitters Association is saying to their members….. Do not give back deposits. They suggest that Outfitters give alternate dates instead. They also suggest that ALL outfitters have faithfull clients and suggest there will be a backlash for not offering an alternate date.
I agree with the Associations logic. ALL outfitters will be judged in the future. If an Outfitter cannot roll over the dates for some reason or other. Future potential clients will book with other Outfitters. Can't just think of immediate issue... gotta think of what will be perceived by future clients and how you managed this crisis.
Good people will make the best decisions they can in difficult times and sleep well when their head hits the pillow. Those who are trying to please everyone will fail and will be insomniacs.
Mike, Alexis, Chris or other outfitters, Question for you all. The outfitter I am using in Ontario gets allotted 10 tags a year is all. We have a group of 5 that was booked for the last week of May. No way in heck are we going to be able to make it. For next year he already has a group of 6 booked which with our group of 5 is not going to work out. Do you think the Canadian or Provincial governments will increase allotments for next year given the decreased harvest this year? Thanks
I too have an Alaskan sheep hunt in August and that is all yet to be decided....I have made no travel arrangements yet as there just isnt any point until I know if its on. Alaska really needs to make a call here sooner than later otherwise making travel plans themselves could be an issue as well as determining the final negotiations with the outfitter.
Ontario will not increase allocations. Not sure about the other provinces. Shiras42, talk to him about 2022 and firm it up. He can also offer you 2020 Fall hunt also. Unless he is booked for this Fall.
The Manitoba lodge an outfitters put in a request to a lot the tags that don’t get used this year if they could split them in the next three years to recoup there losses. They won’t know till fall what they decide , They r going to wave the allotment rule for this year if u don’t use them u lose them I was told.
Here's an idea that may work for both the outfitter and the hunter. If a hunter can't push their hunt to the following year(s) and/or the border opens at the last minute and the hunter can't react on short notice, or any number of other reasons.....could the outfitter then allow the hunter to sell his/her deposit to someone else who could go in his/her place? That way the hunter gets his deposit back and the outfitter still gets a customer for this year or the next.
I could see that working out here on Bowsite. Someone puts down a $1000 deposit for a hunt this year and can't go for whatever no-fault reason....border closed or opens at the last minute, this was the only year he/she could go, etc. He could post up a deposit swap. Someone here gives the hunter his $1000 deposit and assumes his hunt. Everyone wins....
JL, that is fairly common with high $/ long lead time hunts. In this case I can’t see how it would work real great, simply so many will be available and not enough guys to fill them on short notice. And generally on a super short notice type deal like that guys are going to expect a discount, probably somewhere around the amount of the deposit that has already been paid ;).
It’s just gonna be ugly all the way around. Lot of guys on both sides are gonna get hurt I have a feeling.
—Jim
Chris, has that already been confirmed on the tag allotment (no increase)? He doesn't do fall hunts anymore and its likely I will be in NM elk hunting anyway. Hopefully we can work something out with him. Is there anyway for an outfitter to get more? I am surprised he only has 10. I saw that many bears getting to baits. :)
I think everyone should be patient. Give your outfitters a chance to process what’s going on and come up with a plan. It may not be possible for them to make you 100% whole. You are going to have to accept that and be willing to work with them.
Shiras42, unfortunately the Ontario Government has their hands full. Last thing they are thinking about are bear tags. The OMNRF use to be liberal on Bear tags. In 2016 they put all Ontario Outfitters on quota's and haven't budged. Many Ontario Outfitters will still use many of their tags in the Fall. It is in your best interest to do a Fall hunt. Use up your deposit. Talk to him about it. Or ask if you can do a DIY Fall Mid August 2020 hunt or *** book a fishing package in place of your hunt!! Also, quotas depend on BMA size and past usage.
Jim, I suspect some arrangement could be worked between the outfitter, the current hunter and the replacement hunter where all parties would be in agreement. John
JL. In a perfect world your plan would work perfectly
Treeman nailed it
I do hope your idea catches on and most can get things worked out
So I have Ikon season passes for my whole family. Cost for season pass for family was around 1800-2000. I forget the exact amount. Anyway, only skied twice, my wife once along with one of my kids. The other two twice like me. I was planning on skiing another 14 days in March and April as I and my kids hate skiing in cold weather. Today I got an email from Ikon reminding me to sign up for next seasons pass and given the economic situation they are offering $50 off per pass.... I emailed back and asked if I would be refunded or credited for this season since I couldn't go because they closed down due to the outbreak. I received a quick response that all passes are final and non-refundable for any reason. Seems a giant corporation with deep pockets has no intention to make anyone out whole, and my guess is they can afford to. Yet, we think people in way more desperate situations should. I am not on one side or the other by all means. I just thought I would share since I thought it was similar. I know plenty of people who had bought season passes to come out over spring break and got screwed. Now I will say this: it wasn't their fault at all that the governor of Colorado shut all the ski resorts down. I don't believe they would have if not forced to close. While it is not their fault, I have no intentions of renewing for next season. I am pretty insulted at a $50 off next season when the pass is around 700 per adult. If they would have maybe taken 30% off, I would have considered it, but $50 bucks is a poor bet on their part. They would have made up that 30% in no time with the way we eat and drink on the slopes......I don't blame them for no refund, but they are not handling next season, for me anyway, correctly. I at least got to ski a couple times, but it wasn't worth 900 bucks a day, that's for sure. I don't know what outfitters will do this season. I think legally they are not obligated to return deposits based on this situation, but I don't know how many will swallow losing a deposit and continuing patronizing. I feel for all involved it stinks.
The entire outfitted hunting Industry is based on trust and goodwill - looking at this thread it’s pretty clear that both are in some jeopardy.
Well, this thread has provided some information.
Ryanc. Yep skiing is a risky adventure. Good luck next year
Spiral horn. Outfitters are all you know. Different level I'm sure but not exempt for sure Trust is all you got. Like most of us
Yep, looks like RK nailed it. But somehow I doubt most outfitters will use personal insults to maintain trust and goodwill throughout this crisis.
Why would an outfiitter not carry catastrophic coverage himself for this or earthquakes, war, meteor strike, etc.? Yes, because even if he did you got Ins companies who would never pay.
K
It's December 2019. An outfitter and an insurance agent walk into a bar. The insurance agent makes a pitch to sell the outfitter a policy which will cover loss of income due to a global pandemic, global financial crisis, and government-ordered lockdowns on nonessential business. "Hey...it could really happen you know. Better to be safe than sorry". And the outfitter thinks......."
Maybe a feeler is in order to see if the above idea is even workable.
As far as I can tell...most of the outfitters posting on here are top notch and have a long track record of providing good hunts. Who is in a position (desire, time and money) to go on a last minute hunt if an existing hunter couldn't make it this year or next?
Funny you mention Business interruption insurance. Back in 1980, my dad had this insurance, forest shut down by the OMNRF. Had to cancel the 1980 Spring hunt. He tried to collect. They said Forest fires do not qualify for the insurance.
We have the same insurance, now they say only forest fires qualify. Apparently a bunch of outfitters have this insurance thinking they qualify. I had it but found out its useless for a pandemic.... Its called business interruption insurance. We were duped, but that's life!!!
If anything could happen to an outfitter, we went through it all. After 46 years, nothing surprises me anymore. I canceled the insurance about 2 weeks ago... now we are going to have forest fires come through LOL
Damned if you do damned if you don't lol
I received an email today from the outfitter for my moose hunt in September....
I didn’t email him asking any questions about the current situation. It was sent I assume to all of his hunters and it’s how I would hope all outfitters would handle the situation.
Hey all we hope you are doing great and staying healthy. Right now we are on a day by day operation with the assumption that our spring season has been cancelled, but are optimistic that things for late summer and fall will be as scheduled. So that being said Scott wanted to touch base with an option for getting to Atlin. Most of you are arriving the same time as other hunters and we thought with the hype going on everywhere a good option would be you flying to Juneau clearing customs with Ward Air over the phone and then them chartering you to Atlin. The expense could be then split by however many of you arrange this option. I would put you in contact with whoever is hunting the same time and you guys could work out the details. Probably will be a lot easier staying in your country as long as possible and limiting your travel through Canada. If things don't get better and for some reason they choose to keep things shut down that far ahead then we will look at moving hunts to 2021 or 2022. Rest assured your deposits are in safe keeping and being held till you come up and hunt. Don't worry about your hunt spot we will make sure everything works out one way or the other. In the meantime enjoy your families and any down town you may have. We are doing quite a bit of TLC on our yard at home and the hangar is being worked on as we speak. Fingers crossed it is finished by summer. Please keep positive and we look forward to seeing you all soon. We will touch base if things change either way. Thanks Scott & Jodi Mackenzie
Shug- Sounds like you booked that hunt with quality people....
At least The 2,259 people in the usa that died yesterday won’t have to worry about their deposits or changing dares. That suffering will be left for us hunters and outfitters
Focus on the boulders not the pebbles in life guys
