It’s been an Eye-Opener
General Topic
It has been eye opening. Good luck Willie.
It sure has been eye opening. Thanks for sponsoring one of the best social media platforms available.
One more question - how far behind that deer is that fella sitting? ;)-
" Cherries for their customer list"...Willie just has to bash the other outfitters! He just doesn't get the fact that some guys don't like someone with a huge ego! I'll probably get a few more PM's calling me an "Internet Perv"....Oh well...
Willie it's impossible to win a mudslinging contest on the internet.It may not worth paying the sponsorship money to keep the forum supported so the trolls have a sandbox.
I for one am very grateful that, after TBM went away, we finally found someone willing to step up to the plate. Thank you sir!
Pete
JohnMC - i'd say he's not much further behind that muley than you are behind your 2018 elk.
Some of these guys must not have anything better to do put to get PC and complain about everything. Thanks for being a sponsor.
there are a lot of broke azz people on here who cant afford an outfitted hunt and they hate all outfitters for it.
"What did I miss?"
An entire thread in which Willie claimed that Covid-cancelled hunt deposits should be donated to the outfitter, instead of being honored with either a rescheduled hunt, or a refund. Oh, and anyone who disagrees with him is an "internet perv".
Matt
I don't think it has anything to do with "Broke Azz People" not liking outfitters!
Okay, I'm not going to read that entire thread but, If he is spending deposits rather than putting them in an escrow account then... he probably deserves a little poop sandwich.
I have read most of these threads from TDvorak and had a good chuckle. I prefer an outfitter with a little real world humility however. Although he may be a great outfitter and guide customers on some awesome hunts... I will never know. This kind of verbal cock sparring is best left at the bar and IMO, has no place in any sort of business relations. Good luck to all that hunt with his company!
I'm surprised that anyone is surprised about the internet.
Why continue to dig? That hole is plenty big enough already.
Pete is spot on.
Sometimes it's best to just not post Willy.
I don’t know what a sponsorship costs but if Willy threatens to leave we should all chip in to keep him active it’s worth the price
I have no dog in this fight but what I do know is that when someone resorts to name calling and bashing their peers/competition it demonstrates a lack of self-control and possibly integrity.
Good luck Willie. I hope you continued success even though I wouldn't do business with you.
I went on an outfitted hunt with the owner who had enough ego to compete here and probably win, but he did not deliver, just ripped folks off. I can handle ego if the person can deliver what he claims.
Interesting to me that none of his clients have spoken up in favor of him, yet Spike Bull has clients that sing his praises. Maybe he is good enough that clients don't want others to know so they don't have to wait to book another hunt? What doesn't make sense though to me is if you are that good and busy as one claims, it seems word of mouth is all that would be needed to market the business, so why be a sponsor? Or, he did exactly what his goal was, get his name out there?
Hancock I am gripping between the G4 and 5's bow is resting on middle of elk in my other hand. The dude in Willie Wonka's pic is far enough back he can't touch the deer.
well I haven’t said much about Td and his outfit, but I’ve been following and know I would rather hunt with about 90% of bowsiters before him, guided or not. I don’t know him or have anything against him personally but he comes across as a very different cookie to me. To me it would suck to pay the amount of money he needs for a hunt, and then be stuck having him PERSONALLY guide me. I would not be PUMPED about that! Also I don’t think that most hunters are different than bowsiters. I think Td has a few oddballs that are polite enough to give him repeat business lol. If I’m labeled as an internet perv by Td I’ll wear that title with pride! Thanks again for being a sponsor
I'm still trying to figure out who "Willy" is.
JohnMC....Your spot on...I looked at your elk photo & no comparison to other photo. The hunter is sitting in North Dakota & the deer is in South Dakota.
The classic Chuck Adams trophy pose. Nice muley, nonetheless.
What's truly eye-opening is despite the general consensus amongst Bowsiters, as well as most outfitters, that deposits should be honored, Willie still maintains the "fair" thing to do is for outfitters to pocket the deposits without offering any other alternatives. In addition to that, he thinks hunters should re-book their hunts, and send the outfitter another deposit. You can't make this stuff up.
Matt
Jeez.... one little anime and labeled for life.....
That is a gorgeous deer at the top of this thread. It is a great animal.
"That is a gorgeous deer at the top of this thread. It is a great animal."
Yes it is but, I can't see enough of the bow to make what what model it is. :)
The only other comment I have on this thread is for Embry. It's always better to wonder "who" Willy is as opposed to "where". :-)
Has anyone noticed the sponsors that have not signed up for another year? The 3 I can think of are outstanding outfitters who have been here for years!! 4 counting Bear Track. New owners didn't want to sign up. All bear outfitters. Just thought I would point that out. I will miss all but one of them as sponsors. Cant find them on the sponsor lists.
Mule Power, remember that outfitter, Elk I think from Washington State?? He only lasted a couple of day as a sponsor. You didn't like him much either!!
Habitat, it was Spike Buck that said that. The guy truly enjoyed his hunt with Willy. Is going back for another hunt. This time with a couple more guys.
They all left when the CF shut down, which killed traffic count;-)
Never thought of that... how would someone know the traffic count?? Activity on Willy's threads tells me its pretty good!!
Anybody operating a website who can’t tell you how many unique visitors they see on their site in a month is not in In Business.
And if outfitters bailed after the CF shut down, they must not have been paying much attention before. You guys think outfitters give a rip about their clients’ politics (or vice-versa)??
But if the CF stats were the only thing making this site look like a good investment, then I guess they were right to pull out. You might think that a reputable Outfitter would want NOTHING AT ALL to do with the political pissing contests that go on around here non-stop.
I'm happy with being a bowsite sponsor. Get many lurkers and regular posters as clients. I recommend Bowsite to a few good outfitters each year. Still will. I wince every time I read Willy's threads he starts!!
You regular posters are all good. Just a little rowdy at times. Outfitters need broad shoulders and they will do good here...
Took me a good 2 years before I started getting hunters from Bowsite. Might be that I never asked where they heard of me when they booked. I also notice that at new shows. Can't expect bookings right away. Indy took me a couple of years also. Being regular gives confidence. Also, how a sponsor or any other outfitter for that matter, responds to a negative review or posts, shows whether he's ready for the internet or not. Doesn't mean he's a bad outfitter, just not ready for you guys LOL.
I knew nothing of the internet when I started. Bowsite was the first site I visited. Joined same year. Was a rough start but learned how to take posters. Might not sound like I respect a couple of you, but I do. Grey Ghost, you are a fine gentlemen for sure. I do respect you!! Chris.
Pat and Charlie treated me like gold, when I was a Sponsor. I have to say, almost all Bowsiters did as well.
Not sure where else, you are going to find this many Bowhunters in one place...so, good luck Willie, in finding your "target market".
Generally, if someone has to repeatedly tell you how awesome they are they really aren't very awesome.
These threads are just so bizarre to me...
—Jim
Sponsors are what fuel the Bowsite (and every other thriving internet site). Much like magazine subscriptions. Pat couldn't keep it running on just our monthly dues alone. In my limited experience, there are some outfitters who present themselves as amazing, personable individuals, but when the hunt is on, they become dicks, even pathological liars. I guided for one. And vice versa.
Willie may be a real prince in person, and a helluva guide. He has his opinions on how to run his business. Can't judge his operation by how he presents himself on a forum, only from references who have been there and done that.
If some of you guys want to run him off, have at it. I'm just happy that he stepped up to pay for sponsorship. Ok, my sermon is over. Flame on!
Lou - Bowsite Life Member
I don’t think anyone wants to run a Bowsite sponsor off. I think what most would like see is fair and consistent handling of hunt deposits. Most outfitters have figured it out. Others haven’t.
Matt
Lou I don't think just because you are sponsor you have free will to say what you choose without being held accountable to the bowsite community. I think the other 99% of sponsor understand for it to be money well spend they must show themselves in a positive light which most do very well. Willie @ Jim Rivers is very much an outlier. It is obvious that the powers that be seems to believe that as well. They have a loud Willie to jump off in the deep in have not thrown him a life line.
Matt
It’s not that altruistic in reality. What hunters care about is how their guide handled their situation. Honestly nobody gives a flip about how some stranger outfitter handled some stranger hunters case.
Beyond that this is all just fodder for time killing entertainment and nothing more.
Really Bou?
You don't think hunters who spend hard earned money to book with outfitters care that their deposit is lost in the event an outfitter fall on hard times?
That is not what I said. I’ll take another Shot at it I said you don’t care about what my outfitter does to me and I don’t care what yours does to you. we both are highly concerned with how ours treats us.
Matt was suggesting across the board consistency was important to us.
I will add this....
I agree that sponsors pay to make this site run. However, without us, the target consumer, there would be no sponsors interested in signing up to pay for advertising to us, the consumer group. In other words, both sides of the equation are necessary to make the site function. If an outfitter/sponsor comes on here and makes waves, no one should be surprised that their boat gets rocked.
Willie, you seem to be an interesting dude for sure. I wish I had more expendable income so that I could verify your claims, and go on a hunt with you. I checked out your website. Looks pretty good. I will tell you most of the guys on here are top notch dudes and top end bow hunters. You may be an excellent outfitter with high success rates, but I say that your "aggressiveness" comes off more like abrasiveness. It's your business and your sponsorship, but I am learning in life that the old saying "You can catch more flies with honey" is very true, and certainly is true on this site. I wish you the best regardless.
Lots to consider during these times. I had 4000 out in deposits to 3 different companies for a keys trip in may. It was money that I was spending on.....vacation. An extra in terms of necessity. I called each party as things were being locked down locally and 2 of the 3 were after the refund of deposit in case of a cancellation date. The topic of refund never came up and alternative dates were discussed. I can live without the deposits and I am far from wealthy. This trip is an annual thing for us and its a big deal to say the least. I miss a year and lose some money I won't like it, nobody will.
Snickers hole? Put Willy and all his self grandiose threads in?
I care what your outfitter does to you as I can either add or remove him from my shortlist by the way he treated others.
I think the biggest issue (for me) was right from the get-go, he (Willie) trashed other "competitors", which is a VERY BIG shut down. Come on here and, with a bit of humility, say what your outfit is good at / offers us bow hunters.
Do not come on here and be like a "politician" and jank on other outfitters -- just not the way to drum up business. IMHO
And yes, I did get a PM form him.
" I don't think anyone wants to run a bowsite sponsor off"
Actually Matt that is exactly what some want to do. And the reason? Some want Willy to run his business like many of you want him to, not the way he wants too.
I may be mistaken but I don't think anybody on this thread or the longer thread have a deposit with Willy? That being the case why would any of you care how and why Willy does what he does with his deposits
Matt when you had your outfitter business you explained how your deposits worked. I think you handled that wrong. Spike buck handles his in a certain manner and I think that is wrong also. Old Mule Power handled his deposits in a manner that I think was wrong Also. That being said who cares, unless YOU have a deposit with me none of it is important
Willy has great hunt reviews. He has in the past not done a large volume of archery hunts so it is understandable that there are none showing up here. I have done hundreds of bowsite visitors on my hunts but only a few post and visit here on a regular basis. Willy has great reviews and from what my sources tell me runs a great operation. He just has a different way of communicating it on here
So get rid of him for that and for having a big Ego. But many of you need to x yourself out for the Ego issue at the same time. At least Willy will tell you how great he is. Others here just think they are but don't have the balls to let the rest of us in on it
Give it a rest and let him try to do some business here
Willy, good luck and hang in there.
“Beyond that this is all just fodder for time killing entertainment and nothing more.”
BINGO!
I ain’t got a dog in this hunt either, but why does anybody give a damn. If you want to hunt with Willy, do so. If you don’t, then don’t.
Lou and Rob have it right IMO, but my opinion is just as worthless as Willy’s detractors are.
RK , you asked why any of us would care about how Willie handles his deposits. It's because he posted a thread with several scenarios basically asking how we would handle it.
FULL DISCLOSURE: if your vetting this outfitter based on this thread NONE of these BOWSITERS have experience with this outfitter nor do I but he's not getting a fair shake. Every outfitter has there own way of marketing & some people dont like willie for his style. I personally want an outfitter who is damn proud of his work & ability and i want him to tell me he's the best. Then i want him to give me reasons explaining why he is the best. If im spending my hard earned money i want the best.
Hancock West, in the beginning of the last sentence of the original post, Willie asked "What should be done?" and the fellow bowsiters expressed what they thought should be done. What I read is that the majority believe the deposit should be either be refunded or rolled over to a future date. He asked for opinions and he got many.
-Willie brings it upon himself. (He even started this thread to complain) Not only discrediting other outfits, but other DIY hunters who don’t agree with him.
RK how did I handle my deposits? Not sure what you mean by that. I never had to cancel a hunt but if I did I would certainly have issued a refund. And if circumstances like the current ones prevented the hunt from taking place I would hope that my hunters could reschedule. If not then refund. The only time I wouldn’t issue one is if the client cancelled and didn’t have a legit reason such as a medical/health issue. By the way I did reschedule a few like that.
There are valid reasons for not giving refunds in many businesses. When you are an outfitter you have limitations on your income potential. Mainly they are the number of days authorized to guide in your area by the Forest Service. (Public land outfitters) as well as the number of days in the season. There can also be a limited number of licenses. After the application deadline the only people who can possibly be replacements are one who already possess a license. And if there’s a limited quota permit required the number of potential replacements is probably somewhere around zero. So if a hunter calls and says nothing more than “I can’t make it” and doesn’t want to reschedule what is fair?
To be honest if a hunter even had a half decent reason and I had money to burn I’d give him a refund. But not many outfitters have money to burn.
Mule have no idea how you handled it. But you were wrong. Gg was wrong etc etc ad naseum. In my opinion you all were wrong.
BUT that does not matter because I never had a deposit with you. Only matters to the clients that have a deposit with You. You guys are trying to tell willy how to run his business Which is none of your business
YES Willy asked everyone what they thought of his scenarios and that digressed into demanding him to tell everyone what he was going to do and what he should do.
For the sake of bowsite.com & its credibility i volunteer that Pat should send me out there to hunt grizzly bear with willie in alaska. He could cut him a deal on it & i'll do a unbias followup & put this to bed.
Spike buck... it was Mike Vaughn from Olympic Mountain Outfitters.
For starters I did... or attempted to do business with him. I brought several of my previous clients there to hunt as well as others I booked all based on the things he told me about his operation. I also took some of my employees there. In the end nothing he said was true. Nothing! He tried not paying the employees. And for what it’s worth I was appalled at the way he treated his kids.
But the big reason I didn’t care for the guy is the same reason why I take all dishonest outfitters a little personal. In that business your reputation is as of as much importance as the quality of your hunting. Some hunters hate all outfitters. Some have a good reason to. It’s because some outfitter somewhere out there treated them unfairly. To put it bluntly they just lied through their teeth. That affects all outfitters. I’m no longer outfitting but to this day I still despise the ones who make it tough on the honest outfitters by giving the whole industry a bad rap. I also have a huge respect for the ones who are doing it right.
I have no idea if Willie is an honest outfitter or not. Therefore I have no hatred for the man. But I certainly don’t care for him bashing other outfitters. Also the PMs were horrendous. And as No Mercy said a little humility... or some humbleness would certainly be nice. So even though I have no dislike for him I do find those things and his constant proclamations of self greatness to be annoying. That and the fact that his facts don’t always add up. Again I think it’s a black eye to the outfitting business.
But the whole thing about nothing being wrong with keeping a hunter’s deposit without even offering to reschedule just took the guy to the next level.
And for anyone worried about sponsorship income... this is Bowsite .... the good ones will do well and stay and Bowsiters will weed out the others.
Willie has gotten everything he's asked for. His other thread was nothing more than an attempt to justify keeping deposits without offering an alternate hunt, or a refund. Many of us called him out on it, and now he's pouting.
I'm glad he's "pumped" to have such "awesome" return clients, because I doubt he's drumming up many new clients here.
Matt
It all started on his original thread when a well known bowsiter questioned willie on his statement of whether someone will get arrested for being 2" under the moose antler minimum. After that people started taking shots & piling on & he's been defending himself since. Keep it up willie. Keyboard Cowboys at there finest.
Example of trying to run someone's business. Willie wasn't even in this thread until JayZ trolled him.
From JayZ - 2 simple questions Tdvorak, based on the assumption the state of Alaska is shut down this fall. 1) Are you going to refund deposits or offer an alternate date the following year? 2) If the hunter can't make your alternate date work will you refund the deposit?
From Mule Power - JayZ and Fubar I don’t think that’s an option for him. He has three hunts booked back to back that fill the entire season. If I recall correctly he is booked for next year as well. I’m sure lots of bear hunting outfitters have the same situation. But they may have the ability to add more stands (bait sites) and provide the accommodations to the rescheduled hunters. But Tdvorak is has a one man operation and is doing all 1 on 1 (or 2 on 1) fully guided hunts so there’s no way to double up on clients. The only option I see other than refunds is to hire another guide... assuming there is one as good as he is, and if the transporter can accommodate everyone, and set an extra camp next year. I personally would not like that option because as a business owner it means higher liability insurance, unemployment insurance, worker’s compensation etc. But I guess at 30k per hunt it’s worth it and if his user permit allows him possibly the best way out. Everyone gets to hunt and he can use the current deposits to cover living and operating expenses.
"Example of trying to run someone's business. Willie wasn't even in this thread until JayZ trolled him."
Umm...Willie started that thread.
Matt
Correction: he did start that thread but that doesn't change your comments
I stand behind my comments. Willie's intentions for that thread were obvious, and he got called out for them.
Matt
Hancock “Correction: he did start that thread but that doesn't change your comments”
No it doesn’t. But on that particular thread my comment which you just quoted simply offered solutions. I even said that although it could solve the problem for all parties as the outfitter I personally wouldn’t like the fact that it meant potential increases in operating expenses.
What’s wrong with that comment?
Handcock, Willie wasn't in that thread? He STARTED it. I didn't troll anyone. Maybe try not to throw around accusations.
Mule Power I hope people treat your outfit better than your treating Willie's. If people looked at your reviews & realized only 50% of your clients were successful I hope they give you the benefit of doubt. JayZ if you don't like being called a troll then don't act like one.
Handcock, how is asking him 2 simple questions trolling? Two questions that he's refused to provided answers to. If I'm considering booking a hunt with an outfitter I'm really interested in their responses to those two questions.
Willie started the thread and my questions were on topic bud.
You can fight with Mule all you want but leave me out of it.
50% isn’t bad for public land elk hunting! BTW I don’t outfit any longer.
Hancock West,
If you actually read the thread you linked to, you would know two important things.
1. Jim River Guide service started that thread describing the 3 different situations he felt hunters will be in with Covid 19.
2. He specifically ASKED what people on bowsite think is the fair thing to do.
He started the thread, and asked the members of bowsite how the situation should be handled.
Quote below copied and pasted from the first post starting the thread you linked to: “All three of these kinds of hunters/customers exist. I’m not trying to trick anybody, if you don’t think you know what the fair thing to do is just don’t post.
What should be done? Would it make a difference if the outfitter suggested buying trip insurance”
After a few people posted their opinion that the hunt should be rescheduled or the deposit for the hunt returned if the outfitter cannot provide the service he took a deposit for.
Jim River Guide Service then posted a long word circus insinuating he felt that was unethical to reschedule or for him to refund deposits he took for a hunt he can’t provide, and that he would not want clients line that. He would like clients that book a hunt, the hunt is cancelled by the government or outfitter, and then the client sends him a second 50 percent deposit for a rescheduled full priced hunt to make up for the one he or the government cancelled.
Some other well known and reputable outfitters said they are rescheduling hunts, answering how they would handle the situation Jim River Guide Service ASKED how people would handle. They didn’t bring his business up at all. Just rite what they are doing.
Below is the quote from the top of this thread Jim River Guide Service started, attacking them for the way they answered the question he asked.
“If you think the internet pervs that post such dishonest accusations and call me a liar have the high ground on me, please reward outfits like Wards, Adak Outfitters, MulePower or Dakota with your business. They want it. It sounds like you would be cherries for their customer list.”
"Keyboard Cowboys at there finest."
"Keyboard Cowboys at there finest."
LOL, I'm stealing that one Joe!
You're all being jerks with your potential future outfitter. An example might help.
Why in the hell does an outfitter think he is entitled to keep the deposit under these circumstances?
It as said best on the other thread: "To me, the nonrefundable part was always intended to mean if the hunter cancelled or didn't show up, his money was gone. Any outfitter that would use the "nonrefundable" word to keep someone's money when the hunt itself didn't happen is someone I wouldn't care to ever do business with."
Holy crap!!
I vote that this subject and all BS attached to it be filed into the same "infamous", sealed vault files that all things "TBM" was cast into.
Until a BOW hunter who has verifiably (is that a word Stekewood?) hunted with Uncle Willie comes forward and can corroborate the legend that has been presented to us by Willie, I'm agreeing with Willie that all future, derogatory posters are "internet Pervs". Even though I still don't understand what an internet perv, in the context of this subject, is.
Bustaribs, I know that you still are an internet perv. I get that one. Not this one.....lol
PECO, if the money is spent on operating expenses there might be no money to refund. Then what? Bankruptcy or take out a line of credit to refund the money? The second option might not be an option for some.
I think you have to question an outfitter's business plan if they are relying on deposit money to operate. Obviously, this whole situation is no one's fault, but what if an outfitter breaks his leg just before hunting season? He can't guide clients.
I would assume if there are outfitters that don't refund deposits it will end up in smalls claims court. Any guesses on how that turns out.
Whatever happened to the Bowsiters who lost all of that money with the Tuttillik caribou outfit? Did anyone recover their money?
In Canada poorly for an American and to expensive. In the US With all US Cotizens flip a coin, like any lawsuit
JL i dont think anybody got any money returned. That was a double whammy. Canadian courts plus indigenous people.
No one had a chance in that one
There was another one decades ago involving polar bears and deposits in Canada. Did not work out well either
A true pile.Grey Ghost for the win.
168 guys not a penny back
168 folks got burned...that is painful. Never heard about the polar bear incident.
I think there's a learning curve to becoming a deft communicator on web forums, especially for a sponsor. Perhaps we should give the benefit of the doubt to a relative newbie. I've hunted with a number of outfitters/guides that have given me everything I could expect out of a hunt. Some of them I've never seen on social media anywhere. So maybe they lack "internet savvy", and if they ever did start posting, they might come across poorly.....but I'd still gladly hunt with them. Most of the long-time sponsors here, like for example most of the bear guys, and Babine, Steven Ward, Ken Moody, etc....IMO they do themselves a lot of good with every post they make. Still, I know there's more to evaluating an outfitter besides his skill at engaging on bowsite.
I don't claim to know the secret formula but it never hurts to slow down, re-read before hitting submit, and follow the tenet of "less is more".
Got sucked into this thread last night, had to read the other thread, then come back to this thread - the Energizer bunny of Bowsite. I just want to know who the 'Pervs' are.
First and foremost, I don't have a dog in this hunt. I just happen to read this thread and the other thread. I will share what I have learned in life- successful people don't brag or bash, they simply produce. Also, the best advertisement a business/service can have is a satisfied customer.
Secondly, I have learned in the hunting world that there are a lot of good, knowledgeable, honest outfitters who are not even known, but good hunters know who they are and hire them for their services. Unless there is some unusual event/situation/circumstance happens, the outfitter most times presents the hunter with an opportunity to score on a hunt.
Thirdly, when I was growing up I aways know I was taught that "it takes one to know one." Now, since someone has accused others of being an "internet perv", I wish the someone who made the accusation would please define the term and use the term in a sentence so others could understand what exactly what is being talked about here. I can't find the term on Google and it is not a recognized species with SCI, B&C, P&Y or Record Book of Exotics.
Buffalo1 hope you had your browser in "Incognito" mode when doing your Google search. If not you probably have some interesting stuff in your browsing history! :)
JohnMC,
You may be on to something ! The voting machine knew I voted for Trump, that's why I've already gotten my check from the IRS and others haven't.
Buffalo - I own a Check Cashing Agency. Today is the first day we have had any Economic Impact Payment checks and we have had quite a few. All are dated tomorrow so I have decided to take them and just deposit tomorrow. I hope to make a handsome profit off of them! I love that they say President Donald J Trump on them. I reminded a couple people of that when I've been up in front. Believe it or not they are giving him credit. One gal told me I didn't really think he'd send them out until I got it in the mail. I said well make sure you vote for him in November.
Didn't a bunch of Bowsiters recommend Tuttillic right to the point of them closing their doors. They were well liked by many if I remember correctly. Its unfortunate what happened and maybe why there is so much distrust in Outfitters by many Bowsiters. Many lost large sums of money.
Yep. Right up to the end the loyalty was incredible. Totally understandable
Yes some of the distrust of outfitters here may be due to that, especially with the Canadian outfitters where there is very little recourse. Some is for other valid reasons and some of the distrust is manufactured
I hunted with Tuttilik a few years before they closed up. Had a great hunt. Some of the logistics were screwed up but the hunt its self was good. It was hard to watch them steal all that money and never be accountable.
I was flying out from my hunt and when we landed in that little town next to Hudson Bay we learned that Tuttilik was done. Our hunt was pretty crappy as far as game went but the cook, guides, camp help and the lead guide were all excellent. Even though they knew they were all out of work the lead guy (I think his name is Lou) led them to complete their task and give us a great experience. Sure, they were interested in tips but they did the best they could under the circumstances. It was likely crews like this that earned Tuttilk excellent reviews rather than the company that squandered funds and raped follow on hunters of deposits.
I had three great hunts with Tuttulik in three years and was on the last trip like the poster above and we locked the doors and boarded up the windows behind us when we flew out. The logistics, food, equipment, game care, meat process, hunting, fishing, camps, personnel, communication, prices, etc. were spectacular up until the plane took off with hunters guides and cooks aboard for the last time.
the fact the parent company defaulted on a charter plane balloon note was not something that could have been predicted. very unfortunate because the people associated with the execution of the operation were top notch as was the experience.
I believe that the only reason we ever got to fly in was because they needed to send a plane anyway to get people out of there from the week before and because they did not want to tell 28 people standing at the airport prior to the charter plane take-off that they we not going on the hunt and were not getting a refund. that could have gotten out of hand.
Has anyone ever taken over this operation? Sounds like it was top notch.
I was also at Tuttulik the last week before they shut the doors. The camp staff and guides were top notch. The booking agents, Gordy and Boney, may they rest in peace, were also great guys, who provided great service. The parent company is who to blame for that fiasco. Unfortunately there will probably not be a caribou season in Quebec for a long time to come. Tuttulik earned the respect they had from Bowsite hunters by providing a quality hunt. Nobody was here boasting about it-their reputation spoke for itself among the people on this site-including Pat.
"I have no dog in this fight but what I do know is that when someone resorts to name calling and bashing their peers/competition it demonstrates a lack of self-control and possibly integrity."
Amen to that! No idea about two of the outfits that were bashed, but I've had several good hunts with the third (Wards).
I remember Gordy (Tuttilik) from the Harrisburg shows. Mirage still has their website up but it doesn't look like it's active.
I was one of the many that was paid up for a Tutulik hunt that lost money. They took the final payment for the hunt just a short time before they closed up. They didn't wake up that morning and decide they would default on their balloon payment, that was know for sometime yet they still took payments. We found out they closed 3 days before our hunt. It appears the Canadian courts are useless when it comes to dealing with first Nation. If I knew then what I know now, I would never deal with First nation, especially giving them money in advance. I work every day with a Canadian Company, I have for the last 11 years. They also sell their product all over Canada. At some point in time the Tutulik thing came up in conversation. The response was, they would never provide credit terms to First Nation, if they default, they can't recover. If they sell to them it's by Check and it has to clear before they ship, they won't even take a credit card.
Someone mentioned that Deposits on Bear hunts are used for scouting and baiting and other related expenses for your hunt. That's understandable, but that deposit would have to be in relative close proximity to the time of your hunt (No more than a year) even then it's a risk. You pay deposits 2-3-4 + years in advance to most outfitters, you are taking a big risk especially if it's 50%. Paying a small percent that far out would be a more acceptable risk, but still a risk. Keep in mind none of your deposit that far in advance is used to pay for your hunt. 100% of your deposit is used for real time operating expense. When It comes time for your hunt, you have to hope the outfitter took enough deposits for future hunts to pay for your hunt. A lot can happen to a business 2-3 + years down the road, much of which the outfitter has no control over. I would roll a deposit over for a hunt the following year if It was at a time that would work for me. More than that I would want a refund and then re- book for a date that is compatible with my schedule. I'm not interested in providing long term loans with no interest to someone I may not have ever met and have no real knowledge of the condition of their business. So when you as a business owner come on a hunting forum and disparage competitors, disparage potential customers. Allude to the possibility that you would not refund a deposit if the situation was warranted. You make it hard to convince any potential new customers to send in a deposit. If I'm a customer that has already sent a deposit and then I read these threads. I'm not feeling real good about the state of my hunt.
Putting morals aside, I do believe in US law if a contract exists between a consumer and a business for a product or service, if the business is unable to fulfill the obligation the customer is owed 100% of their money back. That is why any flight that someone has paid for that touches US soil is refundable. The airlines are still attempting to have people take a credit deal instead of full refund, but my understanding of the law is that a refund is the legal obligation. Of course this also makes sense.
Where it gets muddy, is if the business is still ready, willing, and able to provide the service. In Willies case, with offering hunts all over the continental US and Alaska, I am unsure as to how he would be able to personally get to all those places with the travel bans and quarantine measures currently in place. If that lifts prior to hunting season, I wonder how the law would interpret the situation.
"If you are shocked at what you’ve seen like I am, and you aren’t like the internet pervs, I ask you to research my operation. Its pretty awesome. You and I would likely make a great fit. It would be worth your time. That’s no doubt."
Sounds pretty humble.
Isn't the general idea about being a sponsor to increase business?
I do not believe threads like this will help increase your client base or make hunters say "gee, I really want to hunt with that guy and support his outfitting business."
Ever consider threads like this will be harmful to your business?
I know the US govt works budgets 3 years ahead of time. That means the budget for 2023 is being worked on as we speak. The 2020 budget workup started in 2017.
No doubt small business owners, in this case outfitter, are in a different ball game. My thought would be is it possible outfitters could budget 1-2 years ahead? An example for a new outfitter would be all the 2021 and 2022 monies (deposits) go into some type of escrow account and are not touched nor to be used until that budget year. It would take some 2018/19 up front, start-up money on the outfitter's part to enter into the budget cycle for 2020. There's a few bennies to that for everyone. The outfitter and client are protected because the outfitter has the deposit money in some type of escrow acct and can do refunds should the hunting get shut down that year. The outfitter can safely plan and budget for the following year or two with minimal financial risk. The new outfitter will not have to use 2021-2022 deposit money for 2020 because he already planned upfront in 2018/19 to cover 2020.
I know some of the forward year planning will require the new outfitter to make deposits to his for supplies, gear, parts, pieces, airplane travel, etc for the following year in order to get the best prices. That should be able to come out of a separate pot of start-up money or operating reserve money and not the client deposit money that was in an escrow acct....unless it is that hunt year's deposit money. To me...I think the new outfitter is doing some risky gambling if they try to use or pull forward year deposit money for the current hunt year whether it's in an escrow acct or a bank.
Ya...it would take some upfront money, planning, financial discipline and ya have to operate wisely......but everyone is financially protected and the outfitter protects his good name and business. Obviously there is more to operating an outfit than just getting the client a shot opportunity. For a prospective client....their 1-2-3 year out deposit money should be a sacred cow.
Dvorak- I have read your posts and others. I don’t know you and have no skin in this game. You voluntarily gave up your Africa hunt deposit; therefore, you think you have the right to keep your clients deposit...involuntarily. Whet. Is that the jist of it?
“ I lost my overseas hunt due to the virus deal and I told the outfitter to keep my deposit and I rebooked first next year.”
To clarify: Did you tell the outfitter to keep your deposit and then you rebooked for the next year by putting down another deposit? Or did you roll that deposit over for the next years hunt?
And if you did tell him to keep the initial deposit, no strings attached, what percentage of the hunt was the deposit?
Very unfortunate situation many of us find ourselves in. I had to pull the pin on a BC goat hunt this fall. Fortunately before I sent in a deposit. I had verbally committed and deposit would have been sent there if there wasn't some delay on the other end. I felt bad because I know the guy personally and feel he would have done the right thing but you never really know.There are many types of hunters and outfitters. I'd guess just as many hunters that are hard to please as unscrupulous outfitters. Tuttulik is a fine example. Some members here have nothing but good things to say. My group of 16 hunter there several years prior to there closing and I'm sure none would say it was top notch. If I could say anything positive it would be that food and lodging was good every other aspect was subpar.
Rod, according to Willie on his other thread, he told his outfitter to keep his deposit no strings attached, then he rebooked his hunt AND sent another deposit. And he claims that's the fair and ethical thing for all hunters to do.
Matt
Sometimes I feel like I’m in high school. I see more bullying here than anywhere else in my day to day life. If people don’t like him then move on. The old saying “if you don’t have something nice to say, then keep your trap shut” should be followed by a lot of people on here.
Why do people have no trouble believing they do things others don’t but can’t understand that others do things they don’t. Just because you may not have played it the way he did does not mean he didn’t play it that way.
And in the end who cares anyway.
Obviously you care, Bou, or you wouldn't continue clicking and commenting on this thread. Same goes for me.
Does anyone besides Willie think that outfitters should keep deposits, without offering another hunt, or a refund, under these circumstances? If so, please explain your logic. Please don't use the "deposits have already been spent" argument. That's no excuse for an outfitter, or any business, to keep a deposit with no further commitment.
Matt
I think it all about trust. All my hunters understand the issues that the once in a lifetime crisis created. They trust I will fulfill my commitment and in the next couple of years, have them come up to hunt Bears. I have so many repeat customers, not only do I feel obligated to them, I owe them what they put a deposit down for. Each year I book new hunters at Pine Acres, have watched and eventually booked with us. Now I got to prove myself!!
I doubt there is even an issue with outfitters and deposits. Time will tell. But I am sure we will hear about it here on Bowsite!!
Bou always has something to say unless it involves him and his hunts. A real bowsite tool.
Absolute shame a man would attempt to profit off of something of that nature. (Cashing stimulus checks) To be proud of that and excited about it says more about you than anything Willie has even thought about.
So the man should provide his services for free? Pay his employees out of his own pocket, not pay rent to his big bad landlord? Does the land loads not have to pay property taxes or insurance? Where does it stop?
John, please sit at home and wait for your money from the government, they will take care of you, they promise. Socialism is great!
—Jim
There have been dozens of examples posted of how businesses, including other outfitters, are fairly treating deposits to the satisfaction of their clients. Willie and few others seem to be the only ones who think customer deposits should be treated like free bailout loans to outfitters.
Matt
Nice buck in the original post, but how is the hunter going to recover it with him in Canada and the buck in the US and the border closed?
Pop-r how do you suggest someone with no bank account cash a check? Someone needs to be there for them. How do you think that would happen if someone did not pay employees , pay rent, pay insurance, taxes, bank fees, utilities, not to mention checks that don't clear my bank. I have a lot of cash money set aside to have cash on hand to pay out checks. My overhead is quite high in order to offer a service that would leave many without a way to cash a check. I make about $20 gross on a stim check.
I guess you think it would also be wrong if I took the same money bought some apartments and rented them to the same people for $1500 a month in these hard times? At times I wonder if the cash I have in this business would not make more money in the markets, real estate or a number of other things.
I'd fill a lot worse if I owned a convenient store sell people cigarettes, beer, and junk food. I'll also say I could make probably as much doing payday loans as cashing checks. I don't because I think for many that get them dig themself a hole that never get out of because of interest rates that are require.
Matt
No again I will say I don’t care. What hunters care about is how their guide handled their situation. Honestly nobody gives a flip about how some strange outfitter Who is stranger to them handled a transaction with some hunter Who is a stranger to them
this is all just Fun fodder for time killing entertainment and nothing more.
It a blast to see what folks choose to get lathered up about.
You do have some morals or you would also be in the payday loan business. Any bank will cash a check from the IRS for free I figure.
Pop-r, are you in the business world, or do you work for the government? Seems like you don't understand how businesses work...
Edit - If I use my stim check to pay for auto parts and the parts store makes 40% gross margin, is the parts store owner "immoral"? Should he sell to me at cost because I used a governemt handout? Sheesh...
I haven't been in 13 months but I'm pretty sound in how things work. I guess it all lies with the idiot that uses his service. I apologize.
Availability is the problem. If you want to be in that business then by all means rock on. You are providing a much needed service and should be commended!
Pop-r try taking a IRS check or any check that is not to the bank listed on the check to any bank you don't have account with and let me know how that works out. My guess it is it would not matter what someone charged you to cash your stimulus you are not smart enough to not blow it on something stupid anyways.
An IRS check and "any" check are two different things. I could walk into any bank in my area with an IRS check without ID and cash it. If most don't with proper ID then I'm wrong. If you want to make your business based on that then so be it. It's America. I wouldn't be able to sleep. Thankfully I don't need an IRS check to spend altho that's not because of my stupidity or my stupid decision's on my check cashing as you would imply. You should be ashamed!
Pop-r maybe I should hire as a consultant.
No bank will cash any check without an ID (many banks two forms of ID) assuming your not depositing into your account you have with that bank. Banks will only cash a check for someone without an account there if it is the bank of the Maker of the check (Person that wrote check). A lot of times the bank you have your account with will not release the funds to you until the check has cleared the makers bank. The two banks I deal with would not cash an IRS check except for someone with an account at the bank. The problem most people don't realize is a check not worth the paper it written until it clears the bank. I expect there will be fraudulent IRS stimulus floating around hopeful if they come through my door I will be able to recognize as such.
Anyways we have both got this thread way off track.
Again, I figure there is a very large difference in "any check" and a real deal check from the IRS. That changes everything in my mind but maybe it doesn't to the banks. As I said, if that's the case then I'm wrong. You gather up all the 20's you can!
Ever consider threads like this will be harmful to your business?
Did anyone ever consider this is All fiction
Have all the fall hunts in Alaska been cancelled? NO
Has Willy had to make a decision on what to actually do with his deposits. NO
ALL that has happened is that Willy has told everyone what he will do. Not what he has already done
In fact since Willy has already been labeled a liar there is a possibility that his statements and position is a lie also.
I got no skin in this game either but it's incrdibñe how ignorant some of you seem to be with all of this.
And for the record I think Willy is not playing this well
WILLIE?!? Wasn’t that what Alf said.... :-)
He asked a question and for opinions. When he gets strong opinions that don’t agree with him, he calls them internet pervs.
All other things aside, not a good business move.
You know you're an internet perv if........
This thread is the Bowsite equivalent to Tiger King.
Now he’s gonna start blaming stuff on that b:tch Carole Baskin!
Tdvorak, you must also be the world’s greatest shoveler because you’ve dug yourself into a very impressive hole. Good luck climbing out of it.
Answer the question, Willie. Rollover, or refund? Yes or no?
Not sure why the moderators think that question isn't fair, but I'm going to keep asking it as long as Willie is allowed to post his derogatory rants.
Matt
"This thread is the Bowsite equivalent to Tiger King."
HAHA!!! YES!!
Killed her husband whacked him!!
Tdvorak: I implore you to get a good friend to read this thread and tell you how you are coming across. If he is honest, he will tell you it isn’t good.
And I am a guy who happens to disagree with your premise (which is obvious even though you haven’t clearly stated it), but am pulling for you as an outfitter and fellow businessman and hunter.
If none of your hunts have been cancelled, and none end up being cancelled, then you have stirred up a hornets nest that should have been left alone. IMO, there is only a down side to continuing this.
I wish you well in navigating thru these uncharted waters.
HUNt—-I think she actually “Snacked Him” ;)
—Jim
Better to remain silent and thought a fool then to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt.
CPAhunter X2-the ridiculous smugness of Tdvorak insulting anyone who disagrees with him is insulting to the hunting community in general.
Treeman, Can't convince me it didn't happen!
The joke will be on us if after this is over he has many new paying clients.
I hope he will let us know, maybe we will learn something about marketing?
Personally I wouldn't pay a sponsorship fee for the response.In the future no matter what you post on it will be a dog pile.Interedting to read you've never had a Bowsite member as a client so it's really not worth it.
The more I read, the more I believe this guy CAN'T be for real! No way, no how...…………………….
Habitat... omg you cannot be serious!
He said he was already booked solid anyway. I think he just paid the money to be able to create these entertaining threads.
Mule,
I am convinced you are correct. Either that or he did it for entertainment.
People play game on the site For entertainment but they normally don’t pay to do it and impact the good name of the business for the heck of it
For JohnMC
For JohnMC
P-r what you are missing is there is a certain percentage of the population that can not or do not want a bank account for various reasons. To use the PayPal check deposit above it say you must have PayPal Cash Plus account. From what I can tell that is very similar to open a bank account only online or applying for a credit card. There are many or at least enough people to keep me in business that won't qualify or not trust having their money there. You would be surprised the number of people that don't trust having money in a bank. I don't agree with them but I will cash their checks! I'd think anyone that this would work for also has or could have a bank account. If you read what they charge for most checks they charge a lot to cash most checks. It is only 1% for government checks or checks with pre printed signature. All the rest and what I mostly cash they will charge 5% and I'd guess not cash a lot of them they would not make through their approval process. I also guess they charge fees to access your money such as ATM fees or transfer fees. I charge 1.75% on payroll. A lot of checks I cash even if you have a bank account they will like hold the check for 7-14 days. Lot of guys that do contract work they need that money now to buy supplies for next jobs. I know that is a lot like the outfitter that spends the deposit to buy bait. But who are you or I to judge if someone wants to pay a small fee to have money today or wait a week or so to have funds clear their bank. Checks are risky that what many business will not accept them as payment. Every morning I hold by breath when I open my bank account on what will have been charged back to my account that did not clear.
That PayPal service doesn't actually give you the money. It only deposits it as credit to your PayPal account. And you also need to have a second PayPal account with a prepaid credit card. This is a convenience feature for people who do a lot of PayPal transactions. Has nothing to do with the type of clientele a check cashing service like John's services.
This reminds me of something I was told by my grandfather when I was a child. Translated to English, he told me " learn to keep your mouth shut, you will sound smarter."
This thread is my guilty pleasure
Lets get this thread back on track. This is a thread started by a paying sponsor to find clients that are not internet pervs. No one looks at an archery site for advice on the daunting process of cashing/depositing a check :)
Four things I learned from this thread:
Every outfitter handles this differently based on their personal circumstances.
Everyone has their own idea about how outfitters should handle it, realistic or not.
Some people have little understanding about how the free market economy works.
There are apparently a hell of a lot of people who have no bank accounts and will pay someone to cash their paychecks for them. Its no wonder Democrats are so focused on allowing people with no identification to vote.
Ha! That’s a perfect synopsis!
My wife says I’m a dirty perv so I guess internet perv isn’t to far of a stretch lol
