Shoulder hits
General Topic
I’ve been bow hunting for about a year now and love it. I’m learning and would like your thoughts on what I experienced this evening. I pulled my shot on a whitetail buck and think I hit just above his shoulder blade. He ran about 30 yards then stopped, stood still for a few minutes, then laid down. I watched him for about 15 minutes before he started licking his wound, got up, and limped off. I waited for about 45 minutes then checked the spot where he was laying down and found about a 10”x10” puddle of blood. It wasn’t bubbly or coagulated and more bright red. I tracked him for about 30 yards then lost his trail. Searched for several hours then gave up for the night. When he laid down, he was about 75 yards from where I was setup. I’m second guessing myself for not trying to go shoot him. I didn’t have my pistol and didn’t want to push him. The arrow passed thru, but about 5” was broken off on the back end. Do you think the arrow passed thru and caught the back end of his shoulder blade? Thanks.
Ouch, wish you best on recovery... You got penetration of all but 5" of the arrow? With that much penetration, probably not a scapula hit... How high up the back did it hit and what broadhead?
If you hit “above the shoulder blade”, you would get nothing but meat. Unless, perhaps, you were shooting downward at such a steep angle that you somehow managed to clip the brachial artery under the off the shoulder blade.
So doing the math on your post, you figure he was about 45 yards out when you shot him? That pretty well rules out a steep shot angle, doesn’t it??
I don’t know what to tell you... Running only 30 yards before lying down sounds like he was hit HARD, but walking away from it 15 minutes later doesn’t. If you hit him in the shoulder region and below the spine, he should’ve been dead in 15 SECONDS....
But (JMO), at 40 yards, it’s pretty hard to be sure of where you hit. If you were able to check with binocs, that would surely have helped.
And if he walked off with 5” of your arrow in him, that’s not good. Good recipe for a bad infection, but if there is no arrow left in there, he may well make it.
About all you can do is to take closer shots. This is BOWHUNTING, after all....
My math on the distance he ran before laying down was off. He was at 25 yards when I shot him. I’m not positive how high up the arrow went in. I think I was more low than high after thinking more about it. I was shooting a 400 grain Easton arrow with a 100 grain, Rage Extreme 4 blade broadleaf. From 16’ in the air.
Ut-oh, a mechanical broadhead...
Yeah....The guy at the shop where I bought my bow set me up with the arrows and mechanical broad heads. I your opinion, are mechanical broad heads not as good as fixed blade? Thanks
Well I’ve had about 6 shoulder shots in almost a hundred bow killed whitetial. Only one or two losses that weren’t shoulder hits. Shoulder is bad, no vitals there in most cases. Worth a solid search but I’m betting a big massive wound that won’t prove to be fatal in and of itself...fatality in correlation with the wound is quite possible
I once hit a good buck in the shoulder with a 625 grain arrow and two blade single bevel head. I killed him about a week later with hardly a limp. A big rage might do enough damage to make a non-vital wound large enough to wreak havoc in the next few weeks
All re-thinking after the fact means is what you thought to be the situation was really only a guess in the first place and it’s still only a guess in the second place so there’s really no telling
Originally you thought it was a high hit and now you think it was a low hit. Too bad we can’t average those two guesses you would’ve 12 ring that thing
It happens in bow hunting. Play it out and move on from it regardless
What weight are you drawing? The angle at 16’ to 25 yards isn’t too bad.
But if the deer dropped slightly. It could have put your BH into the shoulder blade or spinal process. Or both. If 60# and below with a 400 grain arrow and expandable your not getting through those bones at that angle. At ground level, 90 degree shot angle, possibly through the thinner portion of the scapula.
That doesn’t mean your setup won’t kill a deer. I’m guessing he dropped at the shot. If a deer is spooked, or has you nailed, either pass or aim low Good luck and realize it’s happened to many of us.
Over 30 years ago I hit one in the shoulder and the broadhead did not enter the body cavity, but somehow it killed the deer. Deer traveled 250 yards and was stone cold. Hit another one low in the front and broke both humerus bones. Was not pretty, but we caught up to him the next day and had to put a finishing shot in him. Things happen! What you think you see at the time of the shot is not always reality. You just have to go and do your best to track and look for the deer. You owe it that much!
I'm thinking 400 spine not 400 grain.
In my experience we see what we want to see or what we fear we will see. It depends on your mindset at the time of release. I shot my first archery deer on my way to the stand on a rainy day. I released the arrow and was sure I got her right behind the shoulder. I was excited. If I wasn't why would I bother? I wisely drove fifteen miles to a friends house as I would have pushed too hard otherwise. My friend found her shortly after I found my arrow. I had cut her femoral artery and she traveled about forty yards. I was wrong with my perception. If I was in your situation I would have had a fitful night but would be out there at first light doing my best to arrive at two possible outcomes. 1. You retrieve your kill. 2. You know beyond reasonable doubt you will not recover the animal. If I believed I had killed the animal I would stop hunting but that is my personal choice. I hope you find your deer. Bob
can you find someone with a good blood tracking dog ? if so get it. Forrest
The sound of the arrow hitting the deer can also give useful information. A really loud whack sound in the shoulder area is heavy bone where as a shoulder blade hit is not as loud but very solid. Rib breakage is a sound more like hitting gravel. A spine hit sound is between heavy bone and a shoulder blade hit. These are somewhat subtle differences that veteran bowhunters have learned from experience. Bright fletching with a bright wrap can help you see the hit much better than without. Same with lighted nocks. As mentioned binos can help verify where a hit actually was. What is hard to figure is a rage pass through not leaving a blood trail for you to follow further. If a non fatal hit should leave a damaging hole that will bleed further than what you found. As you are relatively new to bowhunting the art of blood trailing is an art form. There are likely guys here that could have followed that deer for several hundred yard, would have a good idea which direction the deer would eventually have headed or the mostly place the deer went to bed down. Wish you luck and think you were smart to ask for info.
Busby- welcome to bowhunting! Glad you're enjoying it and having opportunities. In my experience, shoulder hits don't usually end well. Do everything you can to learn from what happened. Couple things to keep in mind next time, and its not easy to do but...REALLY pay attention to the shot and EVERYTHING that happens after it. Shoulder hit deer usually bleed great for 100 yards or so then dry up quick. You obviously didn't hit vitals or he would have died quick. In my opinion, I'd rather miss back than forward. A gut shot deer is a dead deer if you give him time. They can't live without that system working. That shoulder area has a lot of possible bad outcomes regarding recovery. Hopefully he survives and you can hunt him next year.
FWIW I also lost a buck this year to a shoulder hit. Made a terrible "THWACK" sound at impact and I had terrible penetration. He stood there at 75 yards and was pouring blood down his side. A LOT of blood. I could see the arrow hanging there and blood running down his leg. I thought I got lucky and hit an artery or got thru enough to catch something good but it wasn't the case. I backed out and came back the next morning, followed great blood for 100 yards....decent blood for another 50 yards than it disappeared completely. Never found the arrow.He looked really bad standing there bleeding but when he walked away, his head was up, and he walked like nothing had happened. I knew I was in trouble. Its a sick feeling to do that to an animal. Wish I could have that shot back.
“ I your opinion, are mechanical broad heads not as good as fixed blade?”
When they perform as intended, they CAN be spectacularly effective, but usually that involves a shot placement that would have had the animal down and dead in under about 20 seconds no matter WHAT kind of head was used.
The people who love them swear by them; people who acknowledge that they have some liabilities quickly get branded as “haters”.
But there are no outfitters who prohibit the use of fixed blades in their camps; there are no mechanicals designed specifically to take on dangerous game; and the super-high-end Dangerous Game heads are all just a much beefier version of a very conventional 2-blade.
The eyes play tricks. Once my hunting partner shot a nice bull elk on a steep downhill quartering away angle. The arrow disappeared inside the bull up to the fletching. Very little blood trail and from the angle we surmised the broadhead must have stopped in the brisket, so no exit wound. We looked for two days, never found the bull.
The following year he killed that bull 150 yards from where he had shot him before. The first arrow never penetrated the body cavity, but instead ran along the top of the spine. We recovered the year old Slick Trick broadhead up in the thick part of the neck.
Do your best and then move on. Strange things happen the instant the nock leaves the string.
My son shot his first deer this year and what I saw was poor penetration too far forward. Right away I started explaining what it appears we could be up against and prepping him for a tough tracking job. What actually happened was it was forward but the deer was slightly quartering towards us. He cut the aorta off the top of the heart and the arrow stopping on the offside humerus. The buck's initial reaction broke the shaft and it was backing out when I saw it. Short tracking job.
Good luck. Give it a good effort, you just never know until you put hands on them. I killed a hog with 9" of shaft and a broadhead in it. Big nasty growth around it and had obviously been there a long time. He appeared healthy and acted normally. I also shot a bear high and ended up killing him 3 days later looking totally fine not even realizing it was the same bear. Head was lodged in a vertebrae.
Good luck finding him. If ya got any pics of the scene/blood....that might help.
FWIW....if I'm going to have a bad shot to deal with....I'd definitely what to make it with a mechanical vs a fixed. IMO the chances of a recovery are better with a bigger hole.
We had a similar experience as Lou described above. My son shot a deer with an expandable that apparently had poor or along the skin outside the body cavity but it appeared like a good shot.
The blood trail quickly petered out. He ended up killing a deer at the end of that season I actually feel was a bigger more impressive deer.
The next year my daughter had a tag and killed the buck from the year before. The buck had some interesting changes to his rack on the opposite side of the injury but other than that and the arrow also split the bucks ear, the shoulder area showed nominal sign of the year before hit.
If you breached the lung cavity he will have trouble drawing breath. Because the hit was high, blood sign will be spaced farther apart. Get down on hands and knees and scan ahead before walking past the last known bloodspot. If you lose blood, consider a turn in direction from the last spot.
I wish you well.
Sorry but if you go through the scapula and get an exit hole that is a dead deer. I believe you were higher than ya think and shot him just above the spine. The backbone dips quite a bit right abouve the shoulder. This pick is of a buck shot from 16-18 yards about 12 ft below line of sight. The arrow went low through both shoulder blades and he was stone dead inless than 10 seconds and 60 yards, Shawn
As you can see the shot is above mid body and caught both shoulder blades, they are there for a reason, they help protect the goodies!! Shawn
I would bet you money you shot above the spine. If you look up proper diagrams of bone and vital structure you'll see how the spine dips towards the front. It's lower than you'd think. You hear a pretty loud whack due to the spinal process sticking up from the spine. With that penetration if you were under the spine it would have been a dead deer. High lung is still deadly. Many many deer get hit up high there. He'll be fine.
Welcome to bowhunting!! That seems about like the usual new bowhunter experience! Don't let it get you down!
I've seen deer shot in the ACTUAL SHOULDER BLADE about 5 times and never seen one penetrate the actual shoulder blade.
This deer was hit were you said. This was two weeks later.
Damn forest, that buck looks like he was hit several times,, jetta, ....f150. Lol.
Someone with some computer artistic skills should post up a diagram of the "not likely a kill" zones on a deer. Might be a bit of debate on that one.
You can see the hole. Stright up his leg, high above shoulder.
Bubsy2018 - Were you able to see where he was licking the wound, woulda gave indication of location...
Agree with others, a high shoulder hit is VERY survivable...
When young and experimenting a lot once took shots at a hanging field dressed 1-1/2 yearling basketrack probably weighing around 125 pounds with a low profile cut on contact Zwickey 2-blade Eskimo and a custom recurve pulling about 58-59 pounds from about 10 feet away... I literally butchered that deer's shoulder taking shots but if I remember correctly only one or two actually totally penetrated one scapula... Got VHS video of the experiment, but learned then, it'd take a heavy bow to penetrate consistently... After reading the Ashby report, imagine a single bevel low profile 2 blade with heavy FOC arrows would do better...
“ a high shoulder hit is VERY survivable...”
But probably less so with a big mechanical creating a large, open wound to become infected.
“ FWIW....if I'm going to have a bad shot to deal with....I'd definitely what to make it with a mechanical vs a fixed. IMO the chances of a recovery are better with a bigger hole.”
Difference of Opinion: Given the choice between 1 larger hole or two smaller ones, I would take 2 every time.
And Shawn.... Shoulder blades are NOT there as “armor”; they are there to provide attachment points for muscles used in locomotion. The fact that they get in the way of our arrows sometimes has nothing at all to do with WHY they are where they are...
“ FWIW....if I'm going to have a bad shot to deal with....I'd definitely what to make it with a mechanical vs a fixed. IMO the chances of a recovery are better with a bigger hole.”
Yeah, agree difference of opinion... Personally, on a marginal hits, I'd prefer penetration over cutting diameter.... Let's take a pool...
I would rather shoot a mechanical for whitetail.
I try to avoid the shoulder and shoot through the rib cage. No meat messed up and a double lung shot puts them down pretty quickly. I use Jackhammer expandables and have killed 72 deer with them. A shot through both shoulders puts a deer down very quickly but it messes up a lot of meat. I can do that with a Ravin crossbow but I try to avoid it. I killed a buck that my neighbor had shot a week earlier and it came to a grunt call. I double lung shot him and saw him fall about 50 yards away. When I got to him I was amazed at a big hole in him that wasn't where I had hit him I couldn't imagine how he was alive to come to me. When I gutted him I found that my neighbor's arrow had gone just above the spine. My neighbor had spent nearly a whole night, the week before blood trailing him with no luck. I told him if he had hit a couple inches lower he would have dropped it in it's tracks.
Shuteye - I agree - I shoot jak-hammers and avoid the shoulder. Most high and up front wounds end up with deer living and if not killed later that season they have messed up racks the following year.
OP - Bubsy2018 - got an up date for us?
Sorry GF but they are there for that reason just like a shield on a pig. African game they really protect the goodies that is why their vitals are so far forward and also cause of the climate. Ribs also serve that purpose!! That is why on a totally broadside shot guys wait for the near leg to move forward before they shoot! Shawn
If your setup won’t shoot through the scapula, you need to do something different. The shoulder blade can be a different story.
I think the scapula and the shoulder blade are the same thing.
If I hit a scapula/shoulder blade then I MISSED where I was intending to hit.
For me hitting the spine of the scapula is bad news but penetrating the thin part is very possible with my setup and can have a good result but I sure don't count on it. The problem is no one knows what part of the scapula they hit when the arrow strikes the animal. Eyes play tricks on us.
This is a good lesson to show that you should always have binoculars when you hunt.
Deer sitting down so quick tells me you got lung. That he got up and walked away tells me you got peripheral lung. I’ve had two forward-shot deer do the same thing and both were hit high and forward in the lung.
It’s speculation where you hit your deer, though, because you’re not certain. If you’d have had binos with you, you might know.
The shot on this deer was high scapula/shoulder (thick part)blade and went through and caught lower back part of off scapula (soft part). It was a complete pass through. 55#s super sharp 3 blade 175 Grain VPA total arrow weight 500 grains. Shawn
Last comment from me is I doubt very much any expandable would of got a pass through with this hit, he was dead in 60 yds. Shawn
If the OP is indeed in Texas....I'm thinking the yotes came into play on this one.
Shawn...I have a high degree of confidence my Rages in my set-up would be a pass thru on that shot. In this pic, note entrance by the string....this was a shot that passed thru the shoulder going in and the backside of the opposite shoulder going out. John
When I was a teenager I was in the stand and saw a deer off in the brush. Grunted at him and he whent to loop around and I let one fly at 20 yards. I watched that arrow fly true and hit hit him perfect right behind the shoulder and he bolted in a dead sprint out of there. I started texting people and telling them I just killed a big buck. I waited 30 minutes and got down to retrieve my arrow and there it was, stuck in the the in the mud with nothing on it but mud. I was shocked. I swore I watched that arrow hit him perfect but obviously that's not what happened. Even the way he reacted was the same way every other deer i had shot had acted. I still have a hard time excepting that I missed him but obviously I would have had to for there to be nothing on the arrow. The eyes play tricks when your that amped up
JL, poundage and draw weight are a huge help. I doubt you draw 27"s and shoot 50-55#s. When I was 18 til close to 30 I shot 90#s I am sure an expandable would of did ok with those weights. Sorry I will shut up!! Hope the OP learns a few things is all! Shawn
Well, I've been at this for awhile and the two things I want to stay away from are shoulder blades and guts. I do not want to be in a situation where I "test" my broadhead against either.
“I shoot a large mechanical (Spitfire Max) on deer and I've never NOT had a pass through on a deer. So, I've had two big holes every time on several dozens of deer. So, it's not simply a matter of fixed head = two holes and mechanical head = one hole/no pass through. But... you've heard that before...“
Yup, and I don’t disagree with you; anywhere through the thoracic or abdominal cavities, I’d be pounding sand to suggest that 2 BIG holes don’t have anything to recommend themselves vs 2 smaller/standard holes.
Just have to have the horsepower to burn; my bows aren’t exactly lightweights (#48-#62), but not even the #62 is a good bet for a mechanical....
Though I’m a little curious how it would do with an Ace Super-X up front on deer. But I think I’ll stick with Standards for the time being.....
Just seems kinda wrong-headed to be willing to compromise penetration on every shot in hopes that the extra width will bail you out on a poor one.
Scooby......I concur....set-up is one thing that dictates what happens down range. At that time....I was doing 80lbs and 29.5 or 30" GT Pro's with a Rage two-blade. The only Rage kill that didn't pass thru was a spine shot deer. It missed passing thru by about 6". I'm guessing if the deer had not of immediately dropped straight down, the arrow may have passed thru. Either way...it was a bad shot on my part and shouldn't of happened.
