Electric vehicles and hunting's future
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
Jaquomo 18-Jan-21
paul@thefort 18-Jan-21
Jaquomo 18-Jan-21
Empty Freezer 18-Jan-21
kentuckbowhnter 18-Jan-21
Jaquomo 18-Jan-21
Grey Ghost 18-Jan-21
Fields 18-Jan-21
Ziek 18-Jan-21
Teeton 18-Jan-21
Shuteye 18-Jan-21
trublucolo 18-Jan-21
Grey Ghost 18-Jan-21
DonVathome 18-Jan-21
HDE 18-Jan-21
Grey Ghost 18-Jan-21
drycreek 18-Jan-21
Matt 18-Jan-21
Jaquomo 18-Jan-21
JohnMC 18-Jan-21
Huntcell 18-Jan-21
kentuckbowhnter 18-Jan-21
Ziek 18-Jan-21
JohnMC 18-Jan-21
LINK 18-Jan-21
kentuckbowhnter 18-Jan-21
Ollie 18-Jan-21
Rocky D 18-Jan-21
Glunt@work 18-Jan-21
SBH 18-Jan-21
Matt 18-Jan-21
trophyhill 18-Jan-21
ben h 18-Jan-21
Surfbow 19-Jan-21
BULELK1 19-Jan-21
keepemsharp 19-Jan-21
NoWiser 19-Jan-21
woodguy65 19-Jan-21
DonVathome 19-Jan-21
NoWiser 19-Jan-21
Woods Walker 19-Jan-21
kentuckbowhnter 19-Jan-21
TrapperKayak 19-Jan-21
TrapperKayak 19-Jan-21
Woods Walker 19-Jan-21
PECO 19-Jan-21
drycreek 19-Jan-21
LINK 19-Jan-21
Tonybear61 19-Jan-21
12yards 19-Jan-21
Cornpone 19-Jan-21
Grey Ghost 19-Jan-21
keepemsharp 19-Jan-21
altitude sick 19-Jan-21
altitude sick 19-Jan-21
Grey Ghost 19-Jan-21
808bowhunter 19-Jan-21
JohnMC 19-Jan-21
altitude sick 19-Jan-21
altitude sick 19-Jan-21
Phaseolus 19-Jan-21
Woods Walker 19-Jan-21
Teeton 19-Jan-21
Matt 19-Jan-21
Woods Walker 19-Jan-21
Jaquomo 19-Jan-21
Grey Ghost 19-Jan-21
PECO 19-Jan-21
TrapperKayak 19-Jan-21
yooper89 19-Jan-21
Grey Ghost 19-Jan-21
altitude sick 19-Jan-21
jstephens61 19-Jan-21
IdyllwildArcher 19-Jan-21
PECO 19-Jan-21
Jaquomo 19-Jan-21
smarba 19-Jan-21
samman 19-Jan-21
KSflatlander 19-Jan-21
Matt 19-Jan-21
smarba 19-Jan-21
Ziek 19-Jan-21
Bowbender 19-Jan-21
HDE 19-Jan-21
Teeton 19-Jan-21
KSflatlander 19-Jan-21
rhoggman 19-Jan-21
rhoggman 19-Jan-21
JSW 19-Jan-21
wkochevar 19-Jan-21
TrapperKayak 19-Jan-21
TrapperKayak 19-Jan-21
rhoggman 19-Jan-21
12yards 19-Jan-21
JSW 19-Jan-21
Matt 19-Jan-21
SBH 19-Jan-21
Matt 19-Jan-21
kentuckbowhnter 20-Jan-21
Tilzbow 20-Jan-21
NoWiser 20-Jan-21
inyago. 21-Jan-21
altitude sick 21-Jan-21
Randy Green 21-Jan-21
12yards 21-Jan-21
altitude sick 21-Jan-21
Woods Walker 21-Jan-21
Matt 21-Jan-21
kentuckbowhnter 22-Jan-21
Woods Walker 22-Jan-21
spike78 22-Jan-21
Matt 22-Jan-21
Lawdy 22-Jan-21
From: Jaquomo
18-Jan-21
Has anyone here ever hunted using an electric vehicle as primary transportation? Will this accelerating push toward them end destination hunting as we know it?

I see a couple scenarios ahead. Hunting will become largely restricted to places close to home. And those who continue to drive gas-guzzlers will pay so much in mileage taxes and prohibitive fuel taxes (which will be enacted to disincentivize fossil fuel transportation) that only the affluent will be able to afford hunting beyond electric vehicle range.

Will the USFS install rapid charging stations everywhere? And what do you do when your charge runs low and you can't make it back?

From: paul@thefort
18-Jan-21
"can't make it back?" Well I guess I would be old fashion and just put boots on the ground as in the past. Matter of fact, I would trade in the electro machine for a new pair of boots right from the start. In my life time, I do not see electric vehicles taking over as a primary transportation tool unless they can improve not only the efficiently but the longevity of the battery and the power of the vehicle to haul and to carry loads.

From: Jaquomo
18-Jan-21
Paul, you're going to walk from Gould to Fort Collins? My question was about getting between charging stations on destination hunts.

In your lifetime, probably not. But within 20 years? Very likely if the greenies have their way.

18-Jan-21
About 63% of this electricity generation was from fossil fuels—coal, natural gas, petroleum, and other gases. ... What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source? Energy source Billion kWh Share of total Nuclear 809 19.6% Renewables (total) 728 17.6% Wind 295 7.1% Hydropower 288 7.0% This is just for generating electricity, gonna be awhile before they get rid rid of fossil fuel vehicles.

18-Jan-21
I was having a conversation with a business associate the other day about this. Between private companies and governments they have spent about 1.5 trillion on the EV movement and production in the last 15 years and they have garnered about 1.5 percent of the US market.

So, it costs about a trillion for each percent of market share and the reason is the public does not want EV's.

The government is going to have to legislate internal combustion vehicles out of existence and cure range anxiety and infrastructure problems before they will have a chance to even get to ten percent market share.

25 years away? 30 years away from that? The technology and infrastructure does not exist at this time to get rid of the problems, range anxiety. Therefore, in our lifetimes we will be burning gasoline and diesel and be able to get back and forth from the hunt. I worry more about hunting going away than the internal combustion engine in the near future. jmo.

From: Jaquomo
18-Jan-21
California EO mandates that by 2035 all new vehicles sold must be EV. Green New Deal is right in line with that, except nationwide. Going to be quite a market for used vehicles if that comes true.

From: Grey Ghost
18-Jan-21
I think the commercialization of hunting will be a larger limiting factor for hunting than electric vehicles will be, at least in the foreseeable future. It may be a cliche, but hunting will continue to move towards a rich man's sport, which will erode support and hunter numbers. Pat's "kicking yourself" thread is evidence of that. Soon, only private landowners and/or super wealthy people will be able to enjoy a quality hunting experience. The average working man will lose interest in hunting due to lack of opportunity and quality.

I've already witnessed this with a few young hunters I know. They can't afford outfitted hunts, nor can they buy/lease private ground. Their interest wanes a little each year after battling the crowds on public land and coming home empty-handed. I fear they will eventually give it up entirely, and I can't say I'd blame them.

Matt

From: Fields
18-Jan-21
"Their interest wanes a little each year after battling the crowds on public land and coming home empty-handed. I fear they will eventually give it up entirely, and I can't say I'd blame them."

Great post Matt!

Exactly this... This is my mindset right now and I am 52. I cannot imagine the younger generation keeping the hunting traditions going.. my son included, who at 17 loves to hunt, but the work and hassle doesn't always make it worth the effort to keep going...

From: Ziek
18-Jan-21
"California EO mandates that by 2035 all new vehicles sold must be EV."

So except for maybe Tule elk, who goes to CA to hunt?

All EV won't happen until recharge time is equivalent to gassing up time and recharge stations are as ubiquitous as gas stations. When that happens, I don't see a downside. Until then, it will be a slow transition to uses where it is not a major inconvenience.

From: Teeton
18-Jan-21
Lot's of good points posted. I truly think hunting will be gone by the time all vehicles are electric. I also see petroleum being replace with natural gas before electric comes in full swing for long distance travel. Natural gas is way more efficient and cleaner than gas or diesel. I believe that in 20 years you will be seeing opposed piston engines running on natural gas, powerful, efficient, clean and 500k engine life. We will see?? Ed

From: Shuteye
18-Jan-21
Well I will soon be 79 years old and my duramax diesel will probably last me until I go to the happy hunting ground.

From: trublucolo
18-Jan-21
I see natural gas trucks from the fields floating around here a bit, and agree that NG makes more sense than electric at this stage. Either way, transitioning to natural gas or electric fuel delivery systems nationwide is going to me a monumental task in itself. Look at the number of gas stations that would need to be replaced.

From: Grey Ghost
18-Jan-21
But, but.....electric vehicles have to be the future. Right? Just ask Elon Musk and his cult of investing worshipers. (sarcasm off)

I honestly don't understand the craze. 10 hr charging times and less than 400 miles per charge. One of those numbers will have to change drastically for them to ever be practical for anything but inner city travel, IMO.

Matt

From: DonVathome
18-Jan-21
I have a tesla. Charging is quick and easy. If you cannot make it back you need to call for a portable charger vehicle to come and charge you or a very pricey flatbed tow to someplace where you can charge. Here in Ohio charing is never an issue. Places I have hunted in the Rocky mnts would not have been possible (or very difficult), to remote.

My car gets basically the same range as a tank of gas. New super chargers can charge up to 1000 miles per hour. 12 minutes and you get 200 miles of charge.

I love my tesla - I let it drive and get to look around, text and relax.

I cannot see it affecting hunting in the slightest in the next 30 years or more.

From: HDE
18-Jan-21
The better question is are there enough metals to supply the battery storage for transportation AND residential use AND business AND all other infrastructure?

The short answer is No. As mentioned, NG is a much better option. And, the U.S. has as much as it needs if all it is used for is transportation.

From: Grey Ghost
18-Jan-21
Interesting, Don. I wasn't aware of the super chargers. What does it cost to supercharge?

Matt

From: drycreek
18-Jan-21
The quest for electric power above any kind of fossil fuels is largely an emotional thing with the greenies, as opposed to a practical thing. Substitute electric vehicles for wolves, it’s all the same in their minds. That said, if I could get 600 miles out of a charge, recharge at my motel overnight, and get this everywhere I was likely to go, I’d embrace an electric F 150 in a heartbeat ! I’m 74 in March, so I ain’t making any plans for that. It’s my guess that the “deadlines” for the US going all electric on vehicles will be moved, then possibly moved again. They ain’t where they need to be yet.

From: Matt
18-Jan-21
I am a bit surprised that, with all the things we are faced with currently, people are focusing on such whimsical issues which may or may not come to fruition.

"So, it costs about a trillion for each percent of market share and the reason is the public does not want EV's."

While i do not know how you calculated that, I have to imagine the reasoning is specious. There has been substantial capital investment to build factories to produce cars, charging infrastructure, etc. I imagine you are factoring that into your equation Since that investment has been made, the marginal cost of the next % of market share will likely be an order of magnitude lower.

From: Jaquomo
18-Jan-21
Ziek, nobody goes to Cali to hunt, but a hell of a lot of Californians drive East. Looking forward to seeing them lined up at the one charging station in Green River UT.

From: JohnMC
18-Jan-21
Lou said "Paul, you're going to walk from Gould to Fort Collins? My question was about getting between charging stations on destination hunts.

In your lifetime, probably not. But within 20 years? Very likely if the greenies have their way."

Are you betting againist Paul still chasing elk at 100 years old?

From: Huntcell
18-Jan-21
XxxxxxxxBiden pledged on his first day in office he would take actions that require “aggressive methane pollution limits for new and existing oil and gas operations.” He said the goal is to develop “rigorous new fuel economy standards aimed at ensuring 100% of new sales for light- and medium-duty vehicles will be zero emissions and annual improvements for heavy duty vehicles.” Xxxxxxxx

18-Jan-21
Maybe a program can be developed for the liberals to hold lightning rods during thunderstorms, for charging purposes of course.

From: Ziek
18-Jan-21
Many of you would have fit right in with all the other shit-kickers when the "horseless carriage" was first invented.

From: JohnMC
18-Jan-21
What Ziek is saying is he happy with whatever he has to drive as long as there is room for his "I love Bernie" bummersticker.

From: LINK
18-Jan-21
What powers a charging station? Cars don’t run on static electricity. Drill baby drill!

18-Jan-21
I imagine you are factoring that into your equation Since that investment has been made, the marginal cost of the next % of market share will likely be an order of magnitude lower. "It will not be lower because of infrastructure build and there is not a customer base for the product. "

From: Ollie
18-Jan-21
Liberals will not care that there will be no remote charging stations. They will dismiss your concerns and say that you deserve to have your atv battery go dead in the middle of nowhere.

From: Rocky D
18-Jan-21
Ziek, it’s deplorables not shit kickers and you are talking about 75 million Americans.

From: Glunt@work
18-Jan-21
I hope technology keeps pace and we get a capable, dependable 4x4 pickup with a 500 mile+ range. I'm not concerned about what makes it go down the road if it works. Electric, propane, gas, diesel, hydrogen, nuclear, whatever. I can make 500 miles work anywhere in the lower 48. If I have to put a contraban generator in the back to get cherged up to get home, so be it. People will still want/need to travel, haul boats, campers, hay, horses, construction equipment, etc..

I am concerned about the trend towards pretending people are climate murderers for doing normal stuff and living normal lives. That could very well limit freedom to travel.

From: SBH
18-Jan-21
Its gonna be awhile Lou. I don't see it happening like that. The truth will come thru.

I'm always surprised how ignorant people are as to where "electricity comes from" I was in a meeting with clients the other day that wanted to have their project built using no fossil fuels and completely sustainable. I didn't have the heart to tell them the most sustainable thing they could do would be to buy an existing home. Building a new home takes a lot of Mother Earth! I make a living building houses so I sat there and listened to them. They went on and on about all the "green" solutions they would be doing. They even hired a "sustainability director" to work with the architect to set the projects goals and make sure the design/build would be up to their standards. "The whole project will be electric! They boasted. No Natural gas! No fossil fuels!" so proud of their ideas. Well I couldn't help myself...... I had to ask them....."you do know where electricity comes from right?" Came off like a fart in church Sunday morning.

Eitherway, the battery building and mining required for the batteries is mind boggling. 10x worse then any mining currently going on. What it takes to get lithium out of the ground and into a battery is a rape on the earth. The hypocrisy is staggering.

I don't have anything against electric vehicles. They definitely have a place at the table. They will grow in popularity and market share.

Newson is a damn fool and only a clown would make that proclamation while his state is reeling in self inflicted nightmare and mass exodus....yes, lets get rid of gasoline vehicles! Nothing else going on that needs to be addressed right now. Hell, I'll just proclaim it and they will have to follow my orders. I am King NEWSOM!! HA:) Rolling on the floor laughing in MT.

From: Matt
18-Jan-21
"It will not be lower because of infrastructure build and there is not a customer base for the product."

The article below is titled "Against the odds, Tesla’s Model 3 became the best-selling luxury car in America". Becoming the best-selling luxury car in America is even more impressive considering - at least according to some - "there is not a customer base for the product".

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/07/success/tesla-model-3-best-selling-luxury-car/index.html#:~:text=The%20Tesla%20Model%203%20is%20the%20best-selling%20luxury,that%20the%20luxury%20vehicle%20market%20is%20highly%20fragmented.

18-Jan-21
I’m sure BHA or NWF has an answer for this. Can’t wait to hear it.......

From: ben h
18-Jan-21
I think electric trucks will be very common for hunting as soon as they get the battery range up to around 600 miles. Quicker charging would also be a plus.

I think they'll be pretty popular for local/city fleet use much sooner due to the charging and mileage limitations.

From: Surfbow
19-Jan-21
Battery technology will have to change, and soon, or the electric car market will not grow much further past its current novelty stage. I don't see EV use as being a contributing factor to more difficult hunting access though. The green crowd on the Left and their supporters are going to have some bitter pills to swallow in the next ten years or so I imagine...

From: BULELK1
19-Jan-21
Before my hunting partner, the Ole Marine moved, we use to take his Hybrid Escort on scouting trips.

Never used a drop of gas on the mountain as we stayed under 30 mph, something like 45 miles per gallon for the whole trip, up and back home.

I can see more and more electric truck options coming in the future for sure.

Good luck, Robb

From: keepemsharp
19-Jan-21
CA is already having rolling brown outs because they can't supply the kilowatts what will happen when 3 million people get home from work and plug their cars in?

From: NoWiser
19-Jan-21
Hunters don’t have a monopoly on cross-country travel to recreate outside. End destination hunting and the fishermen, backpackers, climbers, mountain bikers, etc will also be toast. I see plenty of dangers to hunting as we know it, but electric vehicles aren’t one of them.

From: woodguy65
19-Jan-21
"Eitherway, the battery building and mining required for the batteries is mind boggling. 10x worse then any mining currently going on. What it takes to get lithium out of the ground and into a battery is a rape on the earth. The hypocrisy is staggering"

What about iron-ore?... To get steel to make the giant steel windmills? The amount of earth displaced, the amount of diesel consumed in the process....mind boggling, kind of goes in the opposite directions of their intentions.

From: DonVathome
19-Jan-21
SBH is right about battery building being pretty bad from what I have heard fyi.

Ignorance is bliss. Kind of like what many think about hunting - most non hunters are way off in the take on hunting. A gentle explanation and a fine elk steak can sway a neutral person to our side of the fence. I like to start with there are more polar bears now then at any other times since we have been keeping records (true). It lets them know the media is really biased.

From: NoWiser
19-Jan-21
Hunters don’t have a monopoly on cross-country travel to recreate outside. End destination hunting and the fishermen, backpackers, climbers, mountain bikers, etc will also be toast. I see plenty of dangers to hunting as we know it, but electric vehicles aren’t one of them.

From: Woods Walker
19-Jan-21
I remember back in college at the University Of Wyoming back in the early 1970's seeing a bumper sticker on a truck.......

"For Lights And Heat, Let's Beat The Ecology Freaks, Let The Bast*rds Freeze In The Dark"

At the time I saw that as being pretty outlandish because at the time my view of that was for us to keep a "clean house", not dismantle the house and live in the dirt.

Here we are 50+ years later and THEY WERE RIGHT!!!

19-Jan-21
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/07/success/tesla-model-3-best-selling-luxury-car/index.html#:~:text=The%20Tesla%20Model%203%20is%20the%20best-selling%20luxury,that%20the%20luxury%20vehicle%20market%20is%20highly%20fragmented.

No matter how popular one model is all ev's are 1.5% market share. comparable to Amish buggies.

From: TrapperKayak
19-Jan-21
I never used or use an electric vehicle to hunt. I have used a dirt bike and horses though. I mainly go on foot, but do like the horses. I don't need a quad, ebike, just a truck to get me there, and an able body to get the job done, back to the truck, and home again. I have also used a mountain bike quite a few times come to think of it. It is preferred over motorized....

From: TrapperKayak
19-Jan-21
IMO, hunting is not in jeopardy due to technology advances, it is in trouble due to the attitudes and egos of the ignorant.

From: Woods Walker
19-Jan-21
Just wait until the AOC's of the world proclaim that hunting is not "GREEN", and then take their turn operating the Biden puppet.

I will have a LOT of fellow "OUTLAWS"!

From: PECO
19-Jan-21
"No matter how popular one model is all ev's are 1.5% market share. comparable to Amish buggies." I did pass 10 Amish buggies on the 15 mile drive to the lake yesterday, and zero Teslas. Now to be serious, I agree EVs will not be the end to hunting. I agree with all of the other reasons stated. Especially the higher costs, and all of you advocating for higher price tags are a bigger part of the problem.

From: drycreek
19-Jan-21
Woodguy65, liberals ignore all of that. Either that, or they are too stupid to realize how all this works. May be a combination of both. I reiterate what I said above, it’s just like the wolf introduction, on the surface it looks good to them, and they never go beyond that. They never care to understand what the “carbon footprint “ is to produce a windmill and get it set in place and running. They never care to understand what the “carbon footprint “ is to produce electric cars, charging stations, and the batteries that it would take to maintain them. Then there’s what to do with all those depleted batteries but I’m pretty sure they haven’t thought that far ahead.

From: LINK
19-Jan-21
We are a long way from replacing coal and oil. As others have said batteries aren’t efficient and have to be charged by oil, natural gas, coal. Wind turbines are bankrupt without government subsidies and you get power when the wind blows. Solar panels have come a long ways but still aren’t there and without the expensive batteries you’re without power on cloudy days or at night. When all these things hit their weak spots what do we turn to...coal, oil, natural gas. It’s driven the world for the last 200 years and I don’t see it changing anytime soon.

From: Tonybear61
19-Jan-21
Steam engine, biodiesel either openly or on the black market. Its highly unlikely every wild rural area will be populated and controlled by the greenies. For the most part they are wussies and can't chop wood, dig ditches or farm. That's why they are pushing the new green deal, because they are in effect clueless.

From: 12yards
19-Jan-21
I will need a new vehicle in the next few years. I don't know what to do right now quite honestly. I'm hesitant to buy a gas truck as I don't know if gas will cost a fortune or I'll be taxed into bankruptcy to drive it in 5 years. I can't imagine the poverty this will cause people. Expensive gas and/or having to buy an expensive EV will kill poor people. Hopefully they will vote out people that want to rush into this and we can have a sensible transition over a long period of time. And I think it can't be done without nuclear.

From: Cornpone
19-Jan-21
IMO for electric vehicles to be a viable option a couple things have to happen. 1) battery technology such that a vehicle can go as far, as fast and as loaded as your car/truck. 2) a couple battery sizes only such that you pull into a "gas station", open the hood, crane removes discharged battery and replaces with charged of the same size. And as quickly as going through a car wash or filling your tank. Until then EVs will be more of a novelty than a solution. Recharge station? Who wants to sit on their thumbs for several hours waiting for a charge?

From: Grey Ghost
19-Jan-21
The more I read about EVs, the more interested I get. The technology has come a long ways in a relatively short time. And every major auto manufacture is making huge investments in EV R&D. Tesla's stock price has surged an incredible 600% in just the last year. GM's stock is up 30% in just one month, since announcing their massive investment into EV. They are up 8% just today on news that they struck a deal with Microsoft to commercialize self-driving cars. Those are just a few examples of many that show investors are very bullish on EV.

If/when an EV pickup truck hits the market, I may have to take a test drive. The performance specs on prototypes are very impressive. A pickup that does 0-60 mph in 3 seconds, and has higher hauling/towing capacities and less maintenance than current gas offerings, is intriguing to me.

Matt

From: keepemsharp
19-Jan-21
A friend works on a local turnpike and his bosses tell them if they come upon a wreck of an electric to cut the cables to the batteries. They are 32 to 48 volts and will knock you on your butt.

19-Jan-21

altitude sick's embedded Photo
altitude sick's embedded Photo
Matt our company just bought 27 Lordstown electric pickups. (GM off shoot) 600 hp. Only a 250 mile range. All the weight is below the frame so they corner like a sportscar The motor is in each wheel. A computer selects which Wheel to send voltage to. Very simple drive train. The big hurdle is charge time. And the cost of the quick charge stations.

19-Jan-21

altitude sick's embedded Photo
altitude sick's embedded Photo
Pretty much the whole drive train. No belts or pulleys.

From: Grey Ghost
19-Jan-21
Jay,

I read about the Lordstown pickups. The GMC Hummer is also interesting. I hate the looks of Tesla's Cybertruck, but the specs are impressive. I think it's just a matter of time before they improve on range and charge times.

I tend to follow the money when it comes to new technology. The dollars going into EV right now are off the charts.

Matt

From: 808bowhunter
19-Jan-21

808bowhunter's embedded Photo
808bowhunter's embedded Photo

From: JohnMC
19-Jan-21
Maybe I should start a Sonic type chain along the interstates across america where you pull up plug in, order, and eat while charging. I am all for electic if it because of demand but totally against if it is the goverment shoving down our throats.

19-Jan-21
I think initially the OBiden regime is going to subsidize them heavily. Then eventually we will be taxed into submission. Gas and Diesel trucks will be taxed so heavily you won’t have a reasonable choice. With the large government tax credits. The urban driver will probably benefit. The rural guy will be harmed. Hopefully their are good tax breaks for farmers and ranchers, small businesses. I hope I’m wrong.

19-Jan-21

altitude sick's embedded Photo
altitude sick's embedded Photo
808, It’s already being built small generator trailers. And reserve battery pack trailers to extend range.

From: Phaseolus
19-Jan-21
I Think (hope) that at some time fossil energy and renewables will reach a point where reality sets in. It sounds good now but when greenies figure out it will cut back on their ability to travel and even have lights on at night and rolling blackouts they might be a bit more ‘flexible’ in accepting where their energy comes from.

From: Woods Walker
19-Jan-21
altitude: That's why they will need to have the 25,000 armed troops in DC PERMANENTLY!

From: Teeton
19-Jan-21
Over the years I see/hear so many against electric cars, windmills and so on. Now I ask for those that are against them,, why?? So many are against anything green.

From: Matt
19-Jan-21
"No matter how popular one model is all ev's are 1.5% market share. comparable to Amish buggies."

It is projected that EV's will approach 3.6% of new car sales in 2021. While that is still a small %, when one charts growth trajectory compared to the 2.3% estimate for 2020 and 1.9% for 2019, coupled with the impact of likely legislation from the incoming administration, we could see EV market share approach 10% by the mid-2020's.

From: Woods Walker
19-Jan-21
Let's see...ineffective, unreliable, expensive? Has to be forced on us by politicians rather than free market demand? Naahh.............

From: Jaquomo
19-Jan-21

Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Teeton, coming soon to public land near you if the new administration gets their way (notice I didn't mention BHA.....). This doesn't include the massive transmission grid and roads needed. Is this "green"?

From: Grey Ghost
19-Jan-21
"Let's see...ineffective, unreliable, expensive? Has to be forced on us by politicians rather than free market demand? Naahh............".

Nobody is "forcing" investors to dump billions of dollars into EV. And the only current subsidy is a consumer tax break for a limited number of vehicles sold by each auto maker. I'm pretty sure "free market demand" is what caused Tesla's Model 3 to become the best selling luxury car in the US.

Matt

From: PECO
19-Jan-21

PECO's embedded Photo
PECO's embedded Photo
Windmill blade graveyard. Wyoming is going to dump them in abandoned coal mines. So green.

From: TrapperKayak
19-Jan-21
Jaq, exactly, no diversity there, its a biological desert far more of a negative impact to the envoronment than fossil fuel extraction and use...imo.

From: yooper89
19-Jan-21
Hell once Tesla releases their truck, what’s the difference between it and an ebike?

From: Grey Ghost
19-Jan-21
"Hell once Tesla releases their truck, what’s the difference between it and an ebike?"

About 800 HP and 14,000 pounds of towing capacity.

Matt

19-Jan-21

altitude sick's embedded Photo
altitude sick's embedded Photo
Peco, Get one of those old turbine blades and keep it for when the ice caps melt.

You can surf the front range.

From: jstephens61
19-Jan-21
The difference is my wife won’t have to ride on the handlebars.

19-Jan-21
Lou, that picture is the area around Palm Springs. That area's land has no other use and has wind howling between those mountains almost daily. There are areas where it makes sense to put wind turbines. Like in the windiest places of the desert.

From: PECO
19-Jan-21
Surfs up braaaaa!!!!

From: Jaquomo
19-Jan-21
Oh Ike, typical insensitive Republican talk. That desert may look useless, but it is both fragile and rich in biodiversity that's critical for the long term survival of the planet. I know this because I saw something about it on Nat Geo channel on a show opposing drilling in the Wyoming high desert.

From: smarba
19-Jan-21
Good one Jaq. The double-standards are infinite.

From: samman
19-Jan-21

samman's Link
Unobtainium, it's just smoke & mirrors. Think of all the recreation jobs that would be lost. ATVing, boating, dirt biking, small aircraft, etc. Not only manufacturers, but sales, recreation dependant destinations, etc.

From: KSflatlander
19-Jan-21

KSflatlander's Link
Lou- how can you (with a straight face) take the high ground about biodiversity with your views posted on the ESA?

Samman- you might want to check your sources. See link.

From: Matt
19-Jan-21
"Oh Ike, typical insensitive Republican talk. That desert may look useless, but it is both fragile and rich in biodiversity that's critical for the long term survival of the planet. I know this because I saw something about it on Nat Geo channel on a show opposing drilling in the Wyoming high desert."

CA WSF (hunter-directed conservation group) is on record opposing a number of clean energy projects in a CA desert due to the impact to desert sheep travel corridors.

From: smarba
19-Jan-21
KS, I may be wrong but I believe Lou was not taking the high ground but instead pointing out the hypocrisy: Windmills on barren desert great (because after all the desert is barren); drilling in barren desert bad (because after all the desert is a fragile biodiverse resource that's critical to save).

From: Ziek
19-Jan-21
You guys do know that deplete-able energy sources will someday be, well, depleted? Should we start developing alternatives now, or wait 'till it's too late? All the major auto makers are already starting to respond to demand. Right now, some uses make sense, like urban driving. Some day...who knows? In the meantime, maybe we can prolong fossil fuel uses for applications where there is no other good choice.

From: Bowbender
19-Jan-21

Bowbender's Link

From: HDE
19-Jan-21
Simple concept in economics about substitutes and compliments. Renewables today are a compliment and are not ready to be a substitute, if ever. That was the message of the PragerU video clip.

KS - might want to check the source for media factchecking as they in no way have any political leaning bias either...(insert eye roll here)

From: Teeton
19-Jan-21
Growing up in Pa in the town of Carbondale where coal was king. Let me tell you about the area around Carbondale. Large giant holes from strip mining, areas called black deserts, mine subsidence, water coming out of mountains that's rust (acid) color, no fish in small stream where the rust (acid) colored water is going into, soil ph below 4.5, large black mountains of coal slag, mine fires.. Now just about every mountain around me has windmills.. Just north of Carbondale lots Natural gas, with fracking, lots of roads across mountain from the gas lines. plus the cuts thru the mountains for the gas lines,, just like Jaquomo windmill farms have.

If you talk to any locals they will take the windmills and there pollution over the coal's and so will I.. I just don't understand the hatred for green. I bet it they were going to build a coal burning plant next to your home you would not be happy. They built a huge natural gas plant about 5 or 6 miles from Carbondale, I think there was more opposition to the windmills. This area still has not recovered from the coal industry and I think coal stopped in the late 50's, so that's 70+ years ago. Pretty much one life time!!!

Respectfully Ed

From: KSflatlander
19-Jan-21
HDE- I have checked it. That’s why I use it (eye roll).

From: rhoggman
19-Jan-21
I would be more worried about the criminalization of legal hunting weapons. Electric vehicles may be the future, but their detrimental affect on hunting doesn't come close to the likelihood of politics becoming a barrier to our ability of enjoying a time honored tradition. The morals of ethical hunting will likely become a new taboo in 2021-2030. Post a picture, get fired. Offend the community, get barred from everything. Our new world is an information war, and you, as a hunter, are on the wrong side of the playing field... Good luck. We all need it!

From: rhoggman
19-Jan-21
The technocracy doesn't need you. Meat can be made in a petri dish. You're already the new caveman. The propaganda parade hasn't eaten your soul yet, but it will if you are a hunter. Your time is coming. I am not a troll. I love hunting. I do however fear that a majority of Western society is on a social evolution roller-coaster that is unstoppable. The roller-coaster does not care about the past, only the future, and the majority doesn't have any incentive to include us in their destination. I'll be a proud has-been while I still can, but short of retreating into the real Amazon, the dust cloud of tomorrow now impairs my vision. I seriously doubt my son's kids will ever have an opportunity to hunt, but who knows... Mother nature is a strong force, and much can change in no time.

From: JSW
19-Jan-21
Teeton, Two things you stated need addressed.

The easy one is what you say about how coal mines create pollution that last lifetimes. You are complaining about something that happened long before we realized as a society that we might want to do things in a more eco friendly way. Comparing coal mines of today to those of yesterday is disingenuous.

I live near 2 coal fired power plants and have no issues with them. American coal power plants have lessened their emissions dramatically due to technology and ingenuity. Sadly, the over regulation of Obama and his lefties have caused 3 power plants to be closed near me, which has a huge negative affect on peoples lives.

Your other question is much more complicated but I'll give it a shot. "I just don't understand the hatred for green" In order to understand that, you have to open your eyes to the entirety of the "green" movement.

There has been since the beginning of the "green" movement what has been called the "red/green alliance". Socialists, communists and fascists have for over 100 years used the green movement to further their cause. The leaders of these movements don't really care about saving the planet, they primarily care about changing the world to fit their very narrow view of how things should be. Simply put, they think they are the only ones smart enough to run the place so we just have to give them more power so they can tell us how to live.

In order for the socialists to gain full control, they first have to control the industries and services that allow us to be a free nation. They already control our children through government schools, They are pretty much in control of our healthcare through massive regulations and classically fascist partnerships between big medicine and the government. What they need now is to control our energy and how we are able to use it.

All you have to do is pay attention. Even AOC's green new deal was not originally intended to have anything to do with saving the planet. The architects admit that it was originally intended to bring about social change, first and foremost. By giving it the name "green" they can convince you that it has to be good.

Here's the really sad part about that. When it first came out she was the laughing stock of DC. It didn't take long for the rest of the lefties to realize that this was indeed the perfect tool to gain the most power in the shortest amount of time. Only 2 years ago it was nothing but a joke but now even China Joe wants it implemented. Power!

Being green isn't bad. We all want a cleaner planet or at least one that doesn't get any dirtier. The problem is with the "green movement" The green movement is the perfect tool to enslave a free society. Those of us who deal in reality and not emotions (conservatives) can see through the farce that it has become. I could give a thousand examples of why they are wrong but that would take too long.

Take a look around you. We live in the cleanest, healthiest, safest environment in the history of mankind. Hands down. There is only one reason for that. Fossil fuels and what they allow us to do and how efficient and economical it is to do it.

We will run out of fossil fuels some day but right now that day is over 150 years away. We were supposed to be under water, fried to a crisp and starving to death 20 years ago. Every prediction to date has been wrong. That's why we hate the green movement. Unbelievable dishonesty and extreme scare tactics.

Another reason to hate green. Wind and solar are terrible replacements for coal, gas and nuclear. We are years, maybe decades away from them working the way they say they can already work. Right now it's nothing more than a massive money grab.

Let technology and free thinkers decide when and how we switch to something different. I have no doubt that we will figure out the replacement for oil, gas and coal before we run out. Bankrupting the nation by committing to shut down the cleanest economy in the world will only make the planet dirtier, not cleaner. And make no mistake, unobtainable regulations and goals, will cost us millions of jobs, not to mention the massive brown outs because they can't supply the energy we need.

You better buy a backup generator if you want to ensure that you have enough power to keep your freezer running. It's going to get bad.

From: wkochevar
19-Jan-21
"Ziek, nobody goes to Cali to hunt, but a hell of a lot of Californians drive East. Looking forward to seeing them lined up at the one charging station in Green River UT."

It may be time to be looking for some cheap desert property right on the CA/NV line... storage fees for their gas burners when they leave could make a guy rich pretty soon.

From: TrapperKayak
19-Jan-21
'We were supposed to be under water, fried to a crisp and starving to death 20 years ago.' Good point JSW. To expand on that, Why is it that if 'global warming' is so God-awful bad, that the vast majority of humans live in climates that are in latitudes smaller that 45????? Most people live where it is WARM!!!...AND, in lowlands, close to or adjacent to water!!! And why, if flood potential is so terribly threatening due to polar ice caps melting, do so many people build in floodplains and alo,g coast and shorelines? The very people, who whine and cry that their homes are going to 'sink' when the ocean rises so much... Where is that fear supported by such behaviors? Are they not speaking with double tongues? The hypocrisy is mind blowing, and the,truth could not be plainer.....they have no clue about the dynamic earth, and do not care. They care about their cause only...the obtain power, which 'Green agendas' promote.

From: TrapperKayak
19-Jan-21
'We were supposed to be under water, fried to a crisp and starving to death 20 years ago.' Good point JSW. To expand on that, Why is it that if 'global warming' is so God-awful bad, that the vast majority of humans live in climates that are in latitudes smaller that 45????? Most people live where it is WARM!!!...AND, in lowlands, close to or adjacent to water!!! And why, if flood potential is so terribly threatening due to polar ice caps melting, do so many people build in floodplains and alo,g coast and shorelines? The very people, who whine and cry that their homes are going to 'sink' when the ocean rises so much... Where is that fear supported by such behaviors? Are they not speaking with double tongues? The hypocrisy is mind blowing, and the,truth could not be plainer.....they have no clue about the dynamic earth, and do not care. They care about their cause only...the obtain power, which 'Green agendas' promote.

From: rhoggman
19-Jan-21
46,000 years ago megaflora and megafauna flourished in climates with exaggerated CO2 levels and much higher temperatures than now..... point being.... life FLOURISHED during that time.

Those who want to steal your future bank on you not knowing the past.

What happened during the ice ages and Younger Dryas???? Oh yeah, asteroids hit the earth and melted the ice or released pollution that blocked the suns rays causing the ice to return. Bottom line, catastrophic events outside of human control caused MAJOR changes in the climate in drastic fashion.

The industrial revolution has nothing on events that killed dinosaurs, ended ice ages, and restarted them.

Got news for you.... ocean fossils in central Ohio have 0% to do with man's influence on the world. You probably learned that in 2nd grade.

From: 12yards
19-Jan-21
I see the 800 hp and 14000 pounds towing. Does it have to be that high? I mean, I'd rather have 350 hp and 5000 pounds towing and 500 miles of range while towing in 20 below zero temps.

From: JSW
19-Jan-21
Trapper, you hit the nail on the head.

I've never seen one single positive outcome from global warming. Every single prediction is doom and gloom. If there was one bit of integrity among these "scientist" wouldn't there at least be one benefit of rising temps? Climate crisis this and mass extinction that, WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!!. Wouldn't a warmer Canada be a good thing? Wouldn't they be able to have a longer growing season and higher yields? I'm just sayin.

If you clear your mind and use some common sense you realize that if they are lying about half of it, maybe they are lying about it all. The left lies and the left lies about everything. Change my mind.

From: Matt
19-Jan-21
"If you clear your mind and use some common sense you realize that if they are lying about half of it, maybe they are lying about it all. The left lies and the left lies about everything. Change my mind."

Both sides lie, it's just that people look the other way or rationalize it when it is done by their side.

From: SBH
19-Jan-21
Matt- you are right about that. Totally agree.

I have a friend that has a Tesla. It's an incredible vehicle. I'm not against them. I'm against the way its being forced on us. If that were true, you wouldn't have to have a mandate forcing gas vehicles out. Regarding statements about the market driving demand and what not. That would be fine if it were the case. Thats not what we are dealing with here. A jackass in California who decided he knows what's best for everyone has mandated no more gas vehicles. Thats a bit different than market demand. When you are forced into something, based on a damn fool and a clown that doesn't follow his own ethics he puts on his people......not quite the same as market demand. As far as market demand goes...These people are not telling you the truth about what it takes for batteries and electric cars. You won't see anyone complaining about mines in their backyard in America. Don't worry, that won't happen here. We will just do that in Africa. Most of the lithium is being mined over there. That way its all nice and pretty over here, while we rape and demolish someone else's backyard. But we don't have to talk about that part. Thats the liberal way. Do some research on lithium mines, what it takes to make batteries and where these mines are. They won't tell you, because its ugly and contradictory. A few years back Congress passed a bill saying any new propositions had to be presented with a way to pay for themselves. I think both sides would agree that's a reasonable thing. Thats why the new green deal has a built in bypasse on having to pay for itself. It can't. Anything deemed social justice or environmental good doesn't have to have a way to pay for itself or justify itself in that sense. This is being pushed by AOC and will be passed once Biden takes office. None of this works and its actually in some cases worse for the environment.

That picture of the gas powered generator charging the electric vehicle is spot on. I've seen it in real life. Its hilarious. I asked the guy about it and he didn't understand where the electricity came from. I told him COAL. He said, no that's not true. I thought the irony was funny. He didn't get it.

People will not think about what they are doing. Blindly do what they are told. This isn't hard folks. When the technology is right, when its BETTER than what we have, it will happen and it will happen with the market driving it. Yes Ziek, we should be working on alternatives, not forcing them down our throats when they are actually WORSE then what we are doing. Of course automakers will respond when the government forces people one direction and throws money at them. Lets keep working on that technology until its better but mandating and shutting down other industries prematurely is foolish.

From: Matt
19-Jan-21
"I have a friend that has a Tesla. It's an incredible vehicle. I'm not against them. I'm against the way its being forced on us. If that were true, you wouldn't have to have a mandate forcing gas vehicles out. Regarding statements about the market driving demand and what not. That would be fine if it were the case. Thats not what we are dealing with here. A jackass in California who decided he knows what's best for everyone has mandated no more gas vehicles. Thats a bit different than market demand."

I don't disagree with how bad a law that is. Having said that, Newsome's effort to end gas cars in CA doesn't kick in until 2035. It certainly has a signaling affect, but it is hard to argue that a law that doesn't kick in for 14 years in CA is driving national EV demand today.

Ironically, CA's roads are in large part maintained with funds generated through a gas tax. Our genius politicians, in their effort to enact legislation to drives adoption of EV's, didn't consider that EV's don't use gas. They are now having to rejigger the entire tax scheme.

20-Jan-21
California can't keep the grid up now with power outages almost daily. What the hell they gonna do when they add ten million vehicles to the grid. I tell you what they are going to do, they are going to go dark and everyone will be staring at a car that has a dead battery. They will never allow more power plants to be built.

From: Tilzbow
20-Jan-21
CA’s roads are maintained? Damn sure could’ve fooled me during my 10 hours of driving those horrible things Saturday while running errands in the Bay Area.

From: NoWiser
20-Jan-21
"Take a look around you. We live in the cleanest, healthiest, safest environment in the history of mankind."

Serious question. Are you on crack?

From: inyago.
21-Jan-21
I would say you are all on crack of one kind or another. Have you actually looked at the pollution/ co2/ toxic chemicals, ect ect of electric vehicles, besides where the power to run 500 million of them is going to come from. The batteries are not lasting 200ks, i have seen a lot of cars at 30ks only charge 50 to 70% of capacity, at 60/80 ks needing new packs. Anyway fools and money are soon parted.

21-Jan-21
Remember it’s never about actual results. It’s what makes them FEEL good. They convince themselves they are enlightened and are therefore better people. Because they care about the planet and future generations. Every subject is not a logical decision, it’s how that topic makes them feel.

Migration caravans heading north because President Biden says there will be no more deportations of non felons. And no more wall construction. He and his supporters FEEL superior because they have compassion for their fellow man.

So instead of THINKING the problem through. (Current pandemic), it’s now illegal to separate the coyotes from any minor they are smuggling in and they won’t put them into Obama’s cages. So they will all be turned loose into the the bordering states and given court dates in 2023.

But hey it makes them compassionate people. We are not allowed to eat a cheeseburger in a restaurant. But people with no screening will be able to enter the country.

This works on every topic. Feeling not facts as long as AOC feels good about herself it’s all good.

From: Randy Green
21-Jan-21
When I see China and India reach our current emissions, I’ll then take it more serious

From: 12yards
21-Jan-21
Virtually every climate change virtue signaler that I know has a much larger carbon footprint than I do. Two homes, big trucks, fishing boats with massive horsepower. You would think that if they were serious about what they believe it would have an impact on their personal lifestyle. Apparently even for a virtue signaler, either everyone has to comply, or they won't either.

21-Jan-21
Biden has 3 mansions. Al gore lives in a huge mansion and both fly private jets. Instead of a bus, train or ship. Biden got those 3 mansions on a government salary. And now he will talk about EQUITY for everyone Everyone deserves an equal outcome. No matter the level of effort Equity, Equity, Equity. Get used to their new lingo. Which is code for income inequality and wealth re-distribution

From: Woods Walker
21-Jan-21
China Joe is on a roll! And we're the floor he's rolling over.

From: Matt
21-Jan-21
"California can't keep the grid up now with power outages almost daily. What the hell they gonna do when they add ten million vehicles to the grid. I tell you what they are going to do, they are going to go dark and everyone will be staring at a car that has a dead battery. They will never allow more power plants to be built."

You might want to change the source from which you get your news, because you seem to know a lot of "facts" which are actually poorly informed opinions that are not true.

22-Jan-21
show me the facts that CA can keep their power grid operational 7 days a week. go ahead, waiting.

From: Woods Walker
22-Jan-21

Woods Walker's embedded Photo
Woods Walker's embedded Photo

From: spike78
22-Jan-21
Oh please Paul, I’m nominating you for the worlds oldest man record in the future!

From: Matt
22-Jan-21

Matt's Link
"California can't keep the grid up now with power outages almost daily."

That's not how debates work. You made the claim, you back it up with data. Show me evidence of outages that are almost daily.

"show me the facts that CA can keep their power grid operational 7 days a week. go ahead, waiting"

Here is an excerpt from a Forbes article written in 8/20 that indicates "The California Independent System Operator (CalISO), the entity tasked with managing roughly 80% of the California electricity grid, ordered rolling blackouts last Friday for the first time in 19 years."

See, that's how adults do it.

I can only presume that you will respond back with a Foxplanation that "once in 19 years = almost daily".

From: Lawdy
22-Jan-21
The nation’s electrical grid is very vulnerable. I live mostly off-grid. Up here, blackouts are very common. My brother, a nuclear engineer with another degree in EE, worked on the Whoops project in Washington, a nuclear generator. That got shut down and he moved to Arizona to work on a solar project, but the enviros shut that down because it shaded the desert floor. He said the hell with working here and went to France to work on nuclear projects, and has spent several years helping build nuclear power plants in the Mideast. He also spent time on Johnson Atoll decommissioning the weapons, which supposedly never existed, taken out of Iraq. I asked him about that, because the press claimed there were no such weapons in Iraq. He just laughed. Last we heard he is in Kuwait. The only answer to the massive electricity use in this country is nuclear or go back to living in caves and wearing fur. One thing to ponder, he told us that Russia can’t account for 2 suitcase bombs in their arsenal. Apparently they weren’t very good at protection.

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