Trail-cams; aid it Really Necessary
General Topic
Here we go again. More rules, more regulation. Several states are pushing to end the use of trail cams. What is the reason? Seems that overuses by outfitters and guides in a couple states have caught the watchful eye of lawmakers.
Should they be outlawed? Should stricter regulation regarding their use be tried instead? I mean I get that when you see 50-100 cameras around a waterhole in AZ, something should be done. I’m just not convinced outlawing them is the answer.
Once again our answer seems to be to punish the masses because of a few. Why not limit how many and where you can put these things instead of an outright ban?
How many cameras do you think are sold every year? I have 2. Doesn’t that money go towards Pittman Robert’s Act?
Should they be outlawed? Surely there is another solution that works for all. Past experiences tell me though that some just won’t budge. No compromise.
Probably end up with trailcam licenses. States love new revenue steams.
If i saw 50 cameras around a water hole the first thing i would do is find somewhere else to hunt. Any rules to limit how many you could use would be totally unenforceable. Wouldn't put it past states to require a license.
First I don't like to see any freedom's go away. BUT I'm also not a fan of the high tech camera's that you can watch the animal from phone or home. And I understand that it's keeps your scent out of the woods and the reason for using them. That just reduces the challenge, woodmanship IMHO. Let alone the camera's owner believing he now owns the territory on public land. I've now had a couple bad experiences with this.
The above post is why trail cams are under fire.
I truly don’t know how a mans life can be so simple that this is the topic that gets him emotionally involved.
And there's many that hate cross-"guns", but love trail cams. Go figger.......
What do you do if you're hunting by a waterhole, or some other trail cam magnet, and you have an "urgent need" you have to address from last night's burrito? Just smile and wave?
If there's 50 cams in one spot I have to assume it's public land, and NO WAY IN HELL would I put a camera where 49 other guys are stomping through. Or hunt there, no matter what the cams showed. Because five minutes after the season opens that spot is blown to crap.
There are non hunting public land users who feel cams are an infringement on their personal activities and privacy. While true, cameras watch us on highways, in cities, while we shop, and in other public activities.
I do feel cameras on private lands are the best way to catch trespassers. IMO, not really needed for quality hunting.
Lol WW. So on my way to CO this morning for another week of work there is a place where I lose my cell phone signal for about an hour. It’s very intermittent at best. However for some reason I can listen to podcasts for this portion of the drive.
So I was looking for something on Coues deer because I had an awesome time in AZ for a month of weekends with the intention of hunting rutting mule deer last month. I never knew what I was hunting from 1 day to the next. Mule deer one day and Coues the next. But I want to learn as much as I can about these ghosts of the west so next year I can be a little more knowledgeable.
So before I make the turn off, I decide to look for a Coues podcast and Jay Scott pops up and as I’m scrolling thru his podcast menu I see 1 regarding this trail cam issue and Roe is doing the interview. So I listened. Both of them did a whole lot of playing devils advocate and devils advocate to devils advocate.
I don’t think either one wants to take a stand because they both guide, and both “see both sides of the dilemma” and don’t want to piss one side or the other off. But it appears that there is riffraff between outfitters in the trophy elk units like 9 and deer units that take in “the strip”.
So in essence the G&F is getting tired of settling disputes between outfitters crowding each other out and fielding complaints from people not having quality experiences when hunting these areas. Meanwhile the average joe public land hunters who hike in and check a camera on a spring somewhere and never sees any people gets hosed if cams get banned.
One of the things they talked about was the shear amount of activity taking place around these water tanks when you have a dozen different cameras by a dozen different outfitters.
Another thing they touched on very briefly was the issue of fair chase associated. Jay Scott said absolutely if he as a guide sees animals on a camera, that’s a dead animal vs the guy who goes out and scouts and glasses and does things the old fashioned way.
Interesting podcast. Check it out if you get a chance. Maybe Roe will chime in here.
If we ban drones then we must ban stationary drones (cell cams) ...at least on public land. If you aren’t on public land in person you shouldn’t be there in digital form
Also private land is another ball game. I’m for them on private land but I see restrictions on their use in the hunt as a good thing. They are nothing but stationary drones
I guess Scott guides on a ranch in CO for elk and they literally have 100 or more cameras set up everywhere. That’s a bunch of cameras.
I have two, but honestly use them for entertainment more than scouting. I hunt with a group of guys in SD that is addicted to them. But bottom line is, there are always nice bucks on the property we hunt every year and we know where to hunt them, so what really is the point? I hunt with another group of guys in IA when we draw. We never have set a camera because we know there are nice bucks there and they will show up eventually. So I could take them or leave them.
Some of the above comments seem very limited to viewing one's own benefit or detriment if trail cameras were banned. Looking at how they may cause additional barriers to entry to the sport should also be considered, as well as how they affect the average guy just trying to be successful in these trophy areas when big guide services and big money are involved. Banning them in AZ may not make a huge difference to the success of those guides that have historically run hundreds of cameras in a unit, because they have used them for enough years to know where the best places are likely to be from year to year. However, places like the Arizona Strip are 400+ miles from the largest metro areas like Phoenix, and then another 100 miles perhaps to get deep into the hunt unit to find a place to hunt. It's not at all practical for most hunters, even Arizona residents, to make more than perhaps one scouting trip to the area. There are relatively few deer scattered across thousands of square miles (larger than the state of New Jersey). If they ban cameras, the average hunter that draws it after 15-20 years or more of applying (and never has previously hunted there) is at a huge disadvantage without the ability to use cameras. It will make it extremely difficult to find areas with deer, let alone deer of any significant size, and will force the average hunter to have to pay $7,500 and up for a guide. Although, in my opinion, the guides have caused these problems, they are really the ones that are likely to benefit, and the average hunter will be the one punished for it. I just don't think this will solve the real problems in hunting these areas, and it may even cause the guides to be even more aggressive in their interference with the average guy just trying to hunt on his own.
Trail cams have increased my success by about 0%. In fact ever since I have been using them I swear I see less deer.
I know about 20 deer and bear hunters who use cameras very effectively to pattern animals over bait and trail. It also lets them know what to " hold out for ".
It takes 15-20 years to draw a large area that holds relatively few deer? I wouldn't hunt there either.
Outside of a bear bait, i don't care for them much. Not saying i wouldn't put some out, but i do hate finding them on public land. I hate thinking I am in a great remote spot and looking over and realizing my picture was just taken.
My trail cams don’t make the kill easier they make it harder. Prior to running multiple cams I would shoot the first respectable buck I saw because I had no idea what caliber of deer was around. Now, I’m able to inventory my deer and the bucks I would shoot before get a pass because I’m focused on one or two exceptional bucks.
I run more cams than most across all the places I hunt, yet I shot nothing in Ohio, NY, PA or CT this year.
Not because I didn’t see nice bucks, but rather because I had identified very mature bucks that are hard to kill. No regrets, I had an absolute blast hunting this year and the cam pics made it a lot more fun and interesting.
I’m unapologetic about my passion and use for trail cams on private property.
“If they ban cameras, the average hunter that draws it after 15-20 years or more of applying (and never has previously hunted there) is at a huge disadvantage without the ability to use cameras. It will make it extremely difficult to find areas with deer, let alone deer of any significant size....”
So good-bye point creep? Good-bye to crowds on public land?
Where do I sign?
I enjoy using trail cams, I also enjoy using my Garmin livescope. Neither one guarantee's success though.
I love my trail cameras. I don't think of them as a hunting tool but they do serve a purpose. They teach us humility. I had twelve bucks feeding in an orchard most of the fall. I do not hunt there but I love the images of deer ,bears ,coyotes and an occasional fox. I don't see an advantage in knowing deer had been feeding there at night.
Been running trail cameras on the farm for years. Like Pat, our trail camera photos tell us what NOT to shoot. Prior to trail cameras, we took inventory by summer spotlighting in soybean fields. Trail cameras are a better tool which don't disturb the deer (or the neighbors) nearly as much as spotlighting.
Trail cams are also a great way to keep count of fawns and predators. Every so often, we catch trespassers as well. I have a dozen trail cams running right now...hoping to get a look at which bucks survived hunting season before they shed.
Pat -- "I’m unapologetic about my passion and use for trail cams on private property. "
Ditto!
Private vs public may be where the showdown becomes. Seems difficult to totally ban them on private because the line between a security camera vs hunting aid would be a blurred one at times. Public land is much different.
FTR - I think if guys want to use them on Private, that’s up to them. The animals are a Public resource, but if Private lang guys become more selective, it’s probably a benefit to anyone else in the area within the home range of a given animal. Just so the Private guys aren’t holding animals on the Private land with bait/feeders and they don’t prevent others from taking a reasonable & necessary number of does/year to keep the total herd size in line with what the area can support after the bait piles dry up.
It’s the privatization of the public resource that pisses me off. Tree stands, trail cams, food plots and bait piles are just three of the most common means of doing so.
PECO, there may be few deer, but the ones that are there are pretty big. That's why people apply there.
GF, so you're all in favor of the average hunter not being able to hunt (or at least not be able to be very successful) prime units and only those that can afford to hire guides will hunt there. Good for you.
I really don't know which side of the ban I fall on. I was just pointing out some (what I feel are) negative and likely unintended consequences.
It is all automation and lowering the cost of labor. If you are a businessman guide getting paid, would you hire 10 guys at $15 an hour plus transportation costs for a season, or deploy cameras across the landscape?
We raised the question to CPW some time back. One outfitter response was if your running a commercial operation on Federal lands you need to pay the fees & be licensed to do it, then your in compliance. The other question is does putting out a 100 cameras make you an outfitter based on the current language of the law because joe blow off the street can do this today and sell an animals location on the net like the guy in Utah doing it. In the end, nothing happened in Colorado, yet.
When we banned the use of drones some time back, we did nothing to ban the use of manned aircraft for scouting. What is the difference? The guy paying big bucks can still do it, the guy with a smaller wallet can't. Just another double standard.
It is interesting one can become an outfitter (in a sense) by selling public land trophy animal pictures and location coordinates. Think about the potential.
I use trail cameras a bit. This past fall I used them for bear hunting and then moved them to my family's property where I got a ton of pictures of some very, very nice bucks. Strange thing is that once I got a picture of the bucks, my desire to shoot them went way down. Right now I have 2 cell cameras monitoring some traps I have set for coyotes so I don't have to take the time to hike in every day and check them. It wouldn't bother me one bit if they became illegal. In fact, I'd probably prefer it that way.
I emailed the Utah lawmaker in support of a baiting ban and trail camera restrictions. It's out of control...even in nice wilderness areas. We have no choice but to get lawmakers involved. The wildlife board is full of SFW members/former members and the outfitters have too much pull with the decision making board and RAC's.
I think trailcams are neat. I don’t use them much. It’s hard to attempt to pattern western animals because they don’t pattern. But still fun to set them out. Half the time my camera doesn’t seem to even work ha.
But I do see the annoyance of having 100 trail cams around a stock tank or Something in some of these tough ti draw arid type places
One of the things Roe brought up during that podcast I thought was interesting was, and I want to be clear so people don’t think I’m trying to put words in his mouth because he was playing “devils advocate” or maybe he brought it up with CPW, I don’t know but, to fix the problem in AZ or UT, why not have the game depts put cameras out and sell to the public. That gives them all, including outfitters equal opportunity to buy the pics and coordinates, makes the dept money, and keeps the constant human traffic off these waterholes which indeed changes the animal behavior. My guess is these animals are pretty much only going to water at night for the most part if there is constant pressure during daylight.
That last idea sends shivers down my spine when I think about how many people would be showing up to the same water hole to hunt every day, a LOT more than the 10-15 that would have put cameras out on their own.
Public vs Private land as it pertains to trail cameras is a completely different argument. There is no good reason to ban them on private land; they do cause problems on public land in some instances.
Wouldn't bother me if they banned them or not ,I've got a couple and think there need. How come no one complains when theirs 50 people in! 100yard radius on a public frozen lake, ice fishing, they all have fish locators!
I’ve thoroughly enjoyed hunting a lifetime with never touching one.Kinda like pulling the wrapping paper on Dec 10th and seeing what you may get to me.My recipe is to always add mystique and uniqueness to the crucible in search of those 15sec encounters that make whitetails special.
Trail cams are for those who don't want to do the work, It's cheating. If it tells you what's around and what time that animal comes in , whatelse do you call it, scouting? Lol Now if you all want to use them then by all means do so, but it shouldn't be called hunting, maybe more like shopping? Its like when you were little looking for the presents you knew your folks had hidden until Christmas Day and you find them, Christmas morning is no fun because the surprise wasn't there. Same with cams, if you know there is a 12 point going by your stand daily at 3pm and your there when it happens takes all the excitement away. I'm sure the trail cam companies will start donating to politicians to keep there cams legal so don't worry guys, you'll still be using them for sometime.
I’ve never used them but I’ve been known to abuse them and give a public land camera a nice snap shot of my bare butt. Now that they’re banned on public land in NV, that probably won’t happen anymore.
On a more serious note, I’ve always preferred walking the perimeter of water holes and wallows, finding sign and then enjoyed the anticipation of what might show up when I’m hunting the spot or observing from afar during scouting.
"Trail cams are for those who don't want to do the work, It's cheating."
Hmmm, so it must be "work" like physical exertion huh? Well I guess we should ban sitting in a blind on a water hole, not enough physical exertion "work" there so it is cheating! How about tree stands, not enough physical exertion (work) there, so we should ban that too? How about goose hunting from a blind? Your just sitting a pit, not enough "work" so it must be cheating? Better ban it!
How about posse guide hunting for the spider bull? What is the difference? 25 guides out looking for the big one for the guy who has the governors tag, or some trailcams? The only difference is the cost and the price to the end buyer.
Is hunting on private land cheating then too?
Just because it doesn't fit a personal preference doesn't mean it should be banned. To each his own.
It is a free country, hope it stays that way and personal preferences don't get crammed down everyones throats.
Grasshopper sums it up great job.
“ so you're all in favor of the average hunter not being able to hunt (or at least not be able to be very successful) prime units and only those that can afford to hire guides will hunt there.”
What a car-load.
You think an “average hunter” can afford to make multiple trips out of state to monitor trail cameras on those “prime areas”? Like I’m gonna hop on my Lear jet once a week to go pull a sim card or something? “Average” hunters “being successful” is what has gone wrong with Bowhunting throughout the West.
Am I in favor of people having to hunt real-time, on the ground, read the sign and figure it out on the fly? Hell, yes. Would I be happy if people would say “screw it; it’s not worth it” if they couldn’t be sure that there was a “P&Y” bull up that drainage? Hell, yes. Do I think it’s an unreasonable burden to “have to” hunt the same way ABSOLUTELY EVERYBODY did 50 years ago? I’ll give you three guesses.
Whatever it takes to get archery season pressure back down to where it was 30 or 50 years ago WITHOUT resorting to a by-draw system would be JUST GRAND, as far as I’m concerned. Or even just down to where there’d be no need to even consider a lottery would be a good first step.
Fact is, most “bowhunters” didn’t take it up until they figured their odds were better during Archery season than during Rifle, and I’m pretty certain that most would quit if they were required to give up their high let-off and their releases and their rangefinders.... and Yup, deal me in.
I have no quarrel with sights; I’m not interested in hunting with them myself because there are pros and cons, but listening to guys who laser every shot and shoot 85% let-off with a release... when they get to whining about crossbows..... it gets pretty old.
Full disclosure...I was never a big fan of trail cams...until I got one. I can honestly say I have NEVER killed a trophy buck as a result of using a trail cam, but I will say that I enjoy seeing what's out there when I can't be out there all the time myself. Having said that, I truly believe for what they charge for one that they are a rip-off...they either shows signs of not working properly or giving up the ghost entirely in just a few years...almost "disposable" in manufacturing imho...so much so that when mine dies I probably won't buy a new one. Lastly, I truly believe if you're using trail cams on public land you have nobody but yourself to blame if they "grow legs". It sucks, but that's how the world spins these days and we all know it going in.
“ hunting is advacing at a great rate, bows , broad heads, cameras,feeders all just a tool in the hunters tool chest”
All the more reasons why we need increased restrictions. Before these “advances”, it was a whole different ballgame; one that non-hunters could respect and appreciate. That’s all headed out the window, now. Even Antis can appreciate what’s required to get inside of non-human predator striking distance; inside of an animal’s comfort zone. Even an Anti can appreciate the idea of getting back in touch with stone-age equivalent hunting skills.
But 24-hour surveillance? Laser rangefinders? Triple-digit ranges on “bow” shots, quadruple-digit yardage with rifles and shots at animals from so far out that they don’t even look up at the sound of the muzzle-blast because some pencil-neck wannabe wants to play Sniper?
How about this? Let’s put all of you guys under govt surveillance to the same extent that you think you have a right to do WRT the animals you’re after. Sounds fair to me. Public land AND Private, because they want to know where you live and what you’re up to at any hour of the day.
Even people who have never given any thought to going hunting can recognize all this stuff as NOT Fair Chase, and all of the tech involved absolutely GUTS any claim we might have to upholding “Traditions” or the idea that it’s about anything more than killing and bragging rights. Yeah, I know you say you don’t give a rip what they think. And then when they vote in a policy that limits hunting, trapping or fishing, it’s the end of the Free World, and you can’t figure out what happened.
“5 years ago I laid down the bow for western elk and deer and bought a 300wby.”
Good on ya. If you don’t want to bowhunt, a rifle is a fantastic option. Wish more people would follow suit.
Interesting and thought provoking perspective GF.
Grasshopper, of course there is work in getting to and from your stand, setting stands etc.. But, to have a trail cam(s) placed over the area you plan to hunt to see what animal is there and the time they walk through is not hunting, it's shopping. So when I say they don't want to do the work I'm refering to scouting. Placing 20 trail cams around an area is not scouting. Your not reading sign or using your brain. Guys take cams throw them up on a trail and make sure they are in the stand by 2:30 because the deer come by at 3. If you consider that hunting then more power to you. Hunting private land is not cheating, never said it was. Hunting private land is easier when compared to public land.
Grasshopper, of course there is work in getting to and from your stand, setting stands etc.. But, to have a trail cam(s) placed over the area you plan to hunt to see what animal is there and the time they walk through is not hunting, it's shopping. So when I say they don't want to do the work I'm refering to scouting. Placing 20 trail cams around an area is not scouting. Your not reading sign or using your brain. Guys take cams throw them up on a trail and make sure they are in the stand by 2:30 because the deer come by at 3. If you consider that hunting then more power to you. Hunting private land is not cheating, never said it was. Hunting private land is easier when compared to public land.
In Spring 2021 of North American Whitetail, on page 10. Gordon Whittington has an article on this very topic.
Sounds some of the biggest detractors have zero experience with trail cameras.
I find trail cams to be handy. I try to use them on all my Bear Bait sites, before I put a hunter on a site. With the regulations stating that there is a $25,000.00 fine for shooting a lactating female, you bet I will use them. While monitoring a bait site, I get to see what else is active at the sites. I use the cheapest cams. Bears eat them sometimes. Had cages ripped off tree's.
“ Sounds some of the biggest detractors have zero experience with trail cameras.”
Well, maybe they object to them just on principle, and therefore have not used them as a matter of personal integrity....
Besides… I believe that Bigfoot guy when he says the animals have a sixth sense that allows them to understand that trail cams are bad for them and so they stay away from them. How the Sasquatch know this without having checked the SD card, I have no idea, but I’m sure he’s right about it...
More importantly, I feel that it’s my moral obligation to do my part to help ensure the future of the species that I hunt by only killing the ones that are dumb enough to cross my path without a great deal of plotting and scheming on my part.
My buddy has Cellular Trail Cams set up as security around his cabin after a break in.
We have several regular trail cams that we use backwards. We pull the cards after the hunt to see what we missed. A couple of beers, some cutting up and fun scrolling through the pics.
I recognize that it’s irrational, public land is public, there’s nowhere left that has been unexplored, but when I “get back in” a ways, I feel a little deflated coming across a trail cam. I just give it a wave, but it feels like another intrusion to me.
So... my position on trail cams is backward, hypocritical and irrational.
"But, to have a trail cam(s) placed over the area you plan to hunt to see what animal is there and the time they walk through is not hunting"
you are lucky if deer travel the same trails at the same time and day where you hunt. I have used cameras on our ranch for many years now. I have not been able to pattern one mature buck as to what time and what trail he will be on. They are so random in their travels it is impossible to do. I use them to get an idea as to what I have around.
"you are lucky if deer travel the same trails at the same time and day where you hunt. I have used cameras on our ranch for many years now. I have not been able to pattern one mature buck as to what time and what trail he will be on. They are so random in their travels it is impossible to do. I use them to get an idea as to what I have around."
C'mon, that sort of things happens all the time for guys that spend a lot of time bowhunting. At their desks. On their computers.
I jest. Cameras on our lease are used the same way as on yours, and frankly the best thing about them are the pics of the bucks that no one sees all season, and all the other stuff: elk, lions, bears, pigs, coyotes, and even fishers. Most cams are on water and what it really reinforces is, if you kill a mature blacktail on water, you got damned lucky as most visit between 10:30P and 4:00A.
Is it just me, or are we now right back into one of those things where the experience EAST of the Mississippi is about 180 from the experience WEST of the Mississippi?
Because it just seems to me that whitetails are a lot easier to pattern than muledeer, blacktails, or Elk.
I think if you want to use east vs west as an example, you also must compare private land vs public land because we all know that there is hardly any public land east of the Mississippi. We have the coveted vast expanses of public land in the west. It still baffles me why this coveted land is constantly under attack by various so called hunters and hunting groups. But that’s another thread ;)
Because hunters as a group do not think long term like their opponents do. It is easy for the APR (American Prairie Reserve), Nature Conservancy and others to promise hunting in the foreseeable future and hunters do not ask what the foreseeable future means. The APR will buy your ranch and promise "some" hunting for a period of 20 years. Twenty years goes fast in this business, yet hunters call the APR a pro hunting group. Not real intelligent by the hunters. Easy long term victory for the anti hunters, likely on their way to a new National Park.
It’s a trail camera. You either think it’s cheating or you don’t. Not any difference for use in the East and the west. You put them out to try and get an idea of what’s there. What’s using this trail. What food sources are they preferring. Etc.....
I used to think using cameras were “cheating” because I wanted to be surprised to see what kind of big deer might be around. Using them has changed my mind. Bought my first 3 cameras year before last when I bought my own ground and was fortunate/lucky enough to kill the biggest buck of my life. I knew there was a good buck there based on sign but the cameras confirmed it a week before I killed him. This past season, no such luck. I have an idea of what deer are around but sure didn’t see any of the big boys at the right time. The most interesting thing I learned from the cameras this year is that the mainstay bucks early on either moved on or were killed I guess, but never had about them being killed. Another big camera plus for me is keeping an eye on predators and trespassers. Pulled the cards last week and the coyotes and bobcats were pretty prevalent. I’m going to try to kill a few yotes today if I don’t freeze to death first.
To each their own! We all have the option to change our minds on a subject. If you don’t like cameras then don’t use them, but don’t say I’m lazy because I choose to do otherwise.
LBshooter, I agree with almost nothing you post but I do agree with your last statement that “hunting private is easier than public.”
I've never had a desire to use trail cameras. They don't fit my definition of fair chase hunting, just like bait piles. For me, the challenge of finding and patterning animals with my own two legs and eyes, without additional crutches like cameras and bait piles, is half the fun and gratification of hunting.
That said, I couldn't care less what "aides" other hunters use on their own private properties, as long as they don't restrict the movements of game animals, which are a public resource. You can't grow a food plot on public land. You can't dam a spring and create a watering hole on public land. You can't cut trees to form travel corridors and/or bedding areas on public land. You can't set up feeders or bait piles on public lands (for the most part). So, I wouldn't view banning trail cameras on public land as a loss of freedoms. It would be just another regulation that makes sense in the spirit of fair chase hunting and other recreational uses on public lands.
I would be in favor of banning trail cameras on public lands.
Matt
My cameras let me know that I have a small pack of 4 yotes chasing deer. To me that’s useful information. It’s only 10 degrees here today but I went out and started calling and all 4 came in together. Only got the leader but that’s one down.
Before cameras I tried thread across trails, put out baking power on trails, small piles of sticks, etc.
Don't own but a few , use on private land and its pretty cool to see not only deer but other animals. That said hundreds of them on public land, trying to push others out and privacy issues, well that's another debate.
Here are the rules of fair chase define by P&Y, trail cams fit?
Seems pretty straight forward to me. "Locating" or "guiding". Yep.
