Thoughts?
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
Missouribreaks 24-Feb-21
Pat Lefemine 24-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 24-Feb-21
Zbone 24-Feb-21
BC 24-Feb-21
PushCoArcher 24-Feb-21
DanaC 24-Feb-21
Screwball 24-Feb-21
GF 24-Feb-21
trophyhill 24-Feb-21
tobywon 24-Feb-21
DanaC 24-Feb-21
PushCoArcher 24-Feb-21
DanaC 24-Feb-21
BC 24-Feb-21
goyt 24-Feb-21
Catscratch 24-Feb-21
stagetek 24-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 24-Feb-21
greenhorn 24-Feb-21
Brotsky 24-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 24-Feb-21
12yards 24-Feb-21
Jaquomo 24-Feb-21
LINK 24-Feb-21
Brotsky 24-Feb-21
wyobullshooter 24-Feb-21
tobywon 24-Feb-21
KY EyeBow 24-Feb-21
jdee 24-Feb-21
GF 24-Feb-21
Toonces 24-Feb-21
Screwball 24-Feb-21
skull 24-Feb-21
Brotsky 24-Feb-21
DanaC 24-Feb-21
Toonces 24-Feb-21
Jackaroo 24-Feb-21
Kevin Dill 24-Feb-21
tobywon 24-Feb-21
tobywon 24-Feb-21
LBshooter 24-Feb-21
MathewsMan 24-Feb-21
Toonces 24-Feb-21
Teeton 24-Feb-21
Ambush 24-Feb-21
DanaC 24-Feb-21
jstephens61 24-Feb-21
Toonces 24-Feb-21
lv2bohunt 24-Feb-21
GF 24-Feb-21
midwest 24-Feb-21
DanaC 24-Feb-21
Toonces 24-Feb-21
12yards 24-Feb-21
Brotsky 24-Feb-21
Screwball 24-Feb-21
GF 24-Feb-21
Brotsky 24-Feb-21
Toonces 24-Feb-21
Kevin Dill 24-Feb-21
Screwball 24-Feb-21
GF 24-Feb-21
4nolz@work 24-Feb-21
GF 24-Feb-21
Toonces 24-Feb-21
Jaquomo 24-Feb-21
WV Mountaineer 24-Feb-21
trophyhill 24-Feb-21
Jaquomo 24-Feb-21
Spiral Horn 24-Feb-21
Screwball 24-Feb-21
Gunny 24-Feb-21
trophyhill 24-Feb-21
Rocky D 24-Feb-21
GF 24-Feb-21
PushCoArcher 24-Feb-21
IdyllwildArcher 24-Feb-21
Jaquomo 24-Feb-21
gobbler 24-Feb-21
GF 24-Feb-21
DanaC 24-Feb-21
VogieMN 25-Feb-21
Catscratch 25-Feb-21
PushCoArcher 25-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 25-Feb-21
DanaC 25-Feb-21
PushCoArcher 25-Feb-21
DanaC 25-Feb-21
altitude sick 25-Feb-21
Pat Lefemine 25-Feb-21
Lawdy 25-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 25-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 25-Feb-21
12yards 25-Feb-21
PushCoArcher 25-Feb-21
Jaquomo 25-Feb-21
trophyhill 25-Feb-21
altitude sick 25-Feb-21
Lawdy 25-Feb-21
Screwball 25-Feb-21
deerhunter72 25-Feb-21
Pat Lefemine 25-Feb-21
Jackaroo 25-Feb-21
GF 25-Feb-21
altitude sick 25-Feb-21
Lawdy 25-Feb-21
Lawdy 25-Feb-21
deerhunter72 25-Feb-21
IdyllwildArcher 25-Feb-21
12yards 25-Feb-21
Pat Lefemine 25-Feb-21
Toonces 25-Feb-21
Toonces 25-Feb-21
trophyhill 25-Feb-21
Pat Lefemine 25-Feb-21
Lawdy 25-Feb-21
Kevin Dill 25-Feb-21
IdyllwildArcher 25-Feb-21
Owl 25-Feb-21
GF 25-Feb-21
Owl 25-Feb-21
GF 25-Feb-21
Pat Lefemine 25-Feb-21
Rupe 25-Feb-21
DanaC 26-Feb-21
Rocky D 26-Feb-21
DanaC 26-Feb-21
DanaC 26-Feb-21
altitude sick 26-Feb-21
Rocky D 26-Feb-21
Missouribreaks 26-Feb-21
Dale06 27-Feb-21
Grasshopper 27-Feb-21
GF 27-Feb-21
Grasshopper 27-Feb-21
Rocky D 28-Feb-21
altitude sick 28-Feb-21
Jaquomo 28-Feb-21
Stix 28-Feb-21
Grey Ghost 28-Feb-21
altitude sick 28-Feb-21
Stix 28-Feb-21
altitude sick 28-Feb-21
Stix 28-Feb-21
Jaquomo 28-Feb-21
DanaC 28-Feb-21
Jaquomo 28-Feb-21
wyobullshooter 28-Feb-21
Jaquomo 28-Feb-21
Rocky D 28-Feb-21
pronghorn21 28-Feb-21
DanaC 28-Feb-21
Rocky D 28-Feb-21
Jaquomo 28-Feb-21
WV Mountaineer 28-Feb-21
WV Mountaineer 28-Feb-21
Jaquomo 28-Feb-21
Stix 28-Feb-21
Jaquomo 28-Feb-21
Rocky D 01-Mar-21
DanaC 01-Mar-21
Missouribreaks 01-Mar-21
BC 01-Mar-21
DanaC 01-Mar-21
WV Mountaineer 03-Mar-21
Kevin Speicher 03-Mar-21
TrapperKayak 03-Mar-21
GF 03-Mar-21
Missouribreaks 03-Mar-21
IdyllwildArcher 03-Mar-21
Missouribreaks 03-Mar-21
Missouribreaks 03-Mar-21
Jaquomo 03-Mar-21
GF 03-Mar-21
DanaC 04-Mar-21
DanaC 04-Mar-21
Tonybear61 04-Mar-21
Kevin Dill 04-Mar-21
Kevin Dill 04-Mar-21
Rocky D 04-Mar-21
TrapperKayak 04-Mar-21
DanaC 04-Mar-21
TrapperKayak 04-Mar-21
DanaC 04-Mar-21
Rocky D 04-Mar-21
Jaquomo 04-Mar-21
Rocky D 04-Mar-21
Jaquomo 04-Mar-21
Rocky D 04-Mar-21
WV Mountaineer 04-Mar-21
tobywon 04-Mar-21
WV Mountaineer 04-Mar-21
Jaquomo 04-Mar-21
Jaquomo 04-Mar-21
Kevin Dill 04-Mar-21
GF 04-Mar-21
DanaC 05-Mar-21
Rocky D 05-Mar-21
PushCoArcher 05-Mar-21
Rocky D 05-Mar-21
Jaquomo 05-Mar-21
Rocky D 05-Mar-21
Jaquomo 05-Mar-21
Jaquomo 05-Mar-21
Rocky D 05-Mar-21
Jaquomo 05-Mar-21
Rocky D 05-Mar-21
Realwarrior 05-Mar-21
Grey Ghost 06-Mar-21
Rocky D 06-Mar-21
Jaquomo 06-Mar-21
Jaquomo 07-Mar-21
GF 07-Mar-21
Jaquomo 07-Mar-21
Kevin Dill 08-Mar-21
Missouribreaks 08-Mar-21
Missouribreaks 08-Mar-21
Missouribreaks 08-Mar-21
DonVathome 08-Mar-21
wyobullshooter 08-Mar-21
Jaquomo 08-Mar-21
DanaC 08-Mar-21
DanaC 08-Mar-21
Kevin Dill 08-Mar-21
wilhille 10-Mar-21
GF 11-Mar-21
PushCoArcher 11-Mar-21
GF 12-Mar-21
trophyhill 12-Mar-21
GF 12-Mar-21
trophyhill 12-Mar-21
Missouribreaks 12-Mar-21
Bake 12-Mar-21
Rocky D 12-Mar-21
Missouribreaks 12-Mar-21
Jaquomo 12-Mar-21
Rocky D 12-Mar-21
Kevin Dill 12-Mar-21
Rocky D 13-Mar-21
Missouribreaks 13-Mar-21
Missouribreaks 13-Mar-21
Rocky D 13-Mar-21
Missouribreaks 13-Mar-21
Rocky D 13-Mar-21
Missouribreaks 13-Mar-21
Jaquomo 13-Mar-21
Jaquomo 14-Mar-21
DanaC 14-Mar-21
Rocky D 14-Mar-21
GF 14-Mar-21
Kevin Dill 14-Mar-21
Rocky D 14-Mar-21
Jaquomo 14-Mar-21
DanaC 14-Mar-21
Jaquomo 14-Mar-21
Jaquomo 14-Mar-21
Rocky D 14-Mar-21
DanaC 14-Mar-21
Jaquomo 14-Mar-21
Jaquomo 14-Mar-21
Rocky D 14-Mar-21
Kevin Dill 14-Mar-21
GF 14-Mar-21
Rocky D 15-Mar-21
Rocky D 15-Mar-21
Jaquomo 15-Mar-21
GF 15-Mar-21
Jaquomo 15-Mar-21
24-Feb-21

Missouribreaks's Link

From: Pat Lefemine
24-Feb-21
I saw that earlier. She obviously knows what was going to happen by posting that pic. I’m 100% ok with her posting the giraffe pic but the bloody heart pic was stupid and unnecessary. All she did was turned off more people to hunting. Attention seeking at its worst.

When are all these hunters going to realize that social media is not our friend?

24-Feb-21
I agree, social media is not a friend of hunting.

From: Zbone
24-Feb-21
Will make a cool hide, pretty giraffe...8^)

From: BC
24-Feb-21
Not good.

From: PushCoArcher
24-Feb-21
Yea that photo will upset a lot of "bleeding hearts". Good for her!

From: DanaC
24-Feb-21
"Yea that photo will upset a lot of "bleeding hearts". Good for her!"

It's been noted that 10% of the population hunts, 10% is anti-hunting, and the other 80% are neutral. Stuff like this may 'upset the bleeding hearts' but it drives some of those *formerly* neutral folks into the anti-hunting ranks. Is that really something you want to celebrate?

From: Screwball
24-Feb-21
I understand all of your perspectives. But we cannot keep being afraid of these groups and people. It is time to take the fight to them. We need to quit being the silent majority. I know what many of you will say but it is time to take a stand and draw a line in the sand. It is no different then the silent majority in politics that are being shamed into silence.

From: GF
24-Feb-21
“ Van Der Merwe — who has killed as many as 500 animals including lions, leopards and elephants — said she posted the sickening photo to taunt the animal rights lobby."

With friends line that....

24-Feb-21
no different than any other successful hunter or fisherman posting a hero pic. the fact that it is a giraffe is irrelevant. if she took it legally, it's no different than posting pics of backstraps or salmon fillets.

24-Feb-21
That is no different than guys boasting on this site. Boasting is boasting no matter how you slice it.

From: tobywon
24-Feb-21
It is different, someone that posts a backstrap is not the same as her comments that she made holding the heart, It was clearly to get a reaction. I'm all for standing up for our hunting rights, but "taunting" does not help in any situation whether related to hunting or something in everyday life. She clearly has the wrong attitude and clearly states that she did it to taunt the animal rights lobby. Stand up for our rights, yes, but why poke the hornets nest. It does the hunting community no good, especially when we are the ones in the minority.

From: DanaC
24-Feb-21
"it's no different than posting pics of backstraps or salmon fillets. "

Bunk. We're not talking about a 'tasteful' picture of meat on the spit, we're talking about deliberate 'gross-out' photos here. And THAT alienates people who determine our fate as hunters. Is it really worth alienating 80% of voters to needle 10% ? I'd call that the mathematics of stupidity.

From: PushCoArcher
24-Feb-21
So hide and sanitize the gorey truth for the 80%? That's how we got to people thinking the process of cutting up a animal for food is "gross".

From: DanaC
24-Feb-21
Nobody said anything about 'hiding' it. But 'showing' it to needle people puts us in a bad light. When that is done ON PURPOSE, it's stupid. I don't need some internet-star bimbo making enemies for me, I'll choose my own fights, tyvm.

From: BC
24-Feb-21
Not good.

From: goyt
24-Feb-21
I certainly do not agree with posting a picture just to upset people. Not the right thing to do. I do enjoy seeing pictures of others sharing their successes even if it is boosting. It makes me feel good seeing others being successful and demonstrates that there is hope.

From: Catscratch
24-Feb-21
Thoughts? I would expect there to be harsh backlash. Turn your head, or live and let live are not very relevant ideas anymore. People throw a fit over emotional stuff and the person offended has more voice than the person in the right. Throwing a temper-tantrum is rewarded more than being justified or correct. I don't agree with it, don't like it, but it's common to see opinion trump all else.

From: stagetek
24-Feb-21
Just plain stupid.

24-Feb-21
Per the post above a few... does a picture of a salmon fillet evoke the same emotional response to voters as a bloody giraffe heart?

From: greenhorn
24-Feb-21
Where do I sign up for a $2000 dollar Giraffe hunt?

From: Brotsky
24-Feb-21

Brotsky's embedded Photo
Brotsky's embedded Photo

24-Feb-21
Don't confuse a hunt with what likely is a trophy fee.

From: 12yards
24-Feb-21
"We need to quit being the silent majority".

I didn't know we were a majority. Thought we were a very small minority.

I think the photo is stupid and not helping hunters at all. Keep that photo to yourself if you take it.

From: Jaquomo
24-Feb-21
The 80% who don't hunt and aren't against hunting (but vote) don't want to see the gory side of what we do, and don't want it shoved in their faces. That won't change anyone's mind.

And anyone who thinks this is a good way to "take the fight to them" has no clue about how emotional politics works. This is why we're losing the battle in many places.

From: LINK
24-Feb-21
You want to post bloody African pics to get at the antis then post pics of the grateful village people with their bloody bounty. That’s a much better message.

From: Brotsky
24-Feb-21

24-Feb-21
Another fine example that human beings sure can do stupid stuff.

From: tobywon
24-Feb-21
Great post LINK, totally agree!!! That message would have served all much better and still made the point.

From: KY EyeBow
24-Feb-21
+1 Jaquomo

From: jdee
24-Feb-21
Cook it up and show it as meal. We show heart shots on here all the time and then everyone wants to know what broadhead you were using. No big deal IMO she killed an animal, showed some pics now it gets eaten.

From: GF
24-Feb-21
“ We need to quit being the silent majority. I know what many of you will say but it is time to take a stand and draw a line in the sand. It is no different then the silent majority in politics that are being shamed into silence.”

Well, now that Biden has won the election… at least THAT part should be over.

Folks who share your politics may be in the majority where are you are, but If you think that can be applied on a nationwide basis, you’re absolutely freaking delusional. Go live somewhere where people will ask you if deer meat is actually even EDIBLE for a couple years and tell us what you think THEN.

You can tell yourself that it’s “all those other people” who are crazy or stupid or useless or whatever term you choose to apply, but they would cheerfully disagree, they ARE in the majority, and they VOTE. Dana is correct, except for the fact that it’s more like 2% or 3% of the population who still hunt in a lot of states.

If we cannot conduct ourselves in a manner which even ALLOWS non-hunters to at least RESPECT our traditions, we are never more than one ballot issue away from extinction, and crap like this drives the middle-of-the-road folks the wrong way.

And now we get to the really fun park, where all of the flamers come out of the woodwork to say what a completely effing liberal D bag I am and how I’ve completely bought into the whole agenda…

From: Toonces
24-Feb-21
Anyone who thinks that an in your face intentionally provocative strategy is not effective, isn't paying attention.

Every progressive cause that has become mainstream in the last 20 years got that way because they were in your face about and didn't care who they upset.

You don't further a cause by hiding, that only further marginalizes it.

From: Screwball
24-Feb-21
12yards, the vast number out there are not anti or pro they are noncommittal. We have numbers but look at the advertising the antis do, polar bears, shivering puppies. We need to take the fight to them and it takes money. Advertising to the non-hunting community about the benefits of outdoors people. We need an organization that will do what the aspca, peta, etc. do to us.

From: skull
24-Feb-21
How many of you posted a harts shot of. your deer on Facebook, just asking for a friend

From: Brotsky
24-Feb-21

From: DanaC
24-Feb-21
"Anyone who thinks that an in your face intentionally provocative strategy is not effective, isn't paying attention. "

That's fine when you're 49% of the voting population and trying to rally the troops. We ain't.

PS 'preaching to the choir' is easy. Educating the masses, or at least maintaining good relations with them, is hard, and idiots make it harder still. One jackass being obnoxious can undo a lot of 'bridge building' by people working quietly to put our best foot forward.

From: Toonces
24-Feb-21
30 - 40 years ago progressive causes, specifically about gender identity, orientation, etcetera wasn't supported by 49% of the public.

Now it is all considered mainstream.

It didn't become mainstream by people not being obnoxious about it.

From: Jackaroo
24-Feb-21

Jackaroo's embedded Photo
Jackaroo's embedded Photo
There is a movement building against factory farming in the pro meat eating hipster community. They consider it a public health crisis. This will groundswell in the next couple of years and hunting will get caught up in it. It’s interesting to watch a mostly pro abortion group more willing to stand up for baby animals more than their own species. The only thing you can count on from this point forward is that this world is upside down.

24-Feb-21
short memories.......

https://forums.bowsite.com/tf/bgforums/thread.cfm?threadid=490557&messages=335&forum=4

24-Feb-21
has anyone bothered to actually look at the pictures she posted? heck of a lot more suitable than many of the pictures posted here on bs.

https://7news.com.au/news/animals/hunter-merelize-van-der-merwe-poses-with-heart-of-giraffe-she-just-shot-in-south-africa-c-2214544

From: Kevin Dill
24-Feb-21
You don't win the bigger war by being tied to socially abominable and horrific (in the eyes of many others) images. This is how you directly generate huge support for anti-hunting causes, and how you eventually alienate those who may have an open mind to hunting... like kids. There's no reason to hide from what we do, and bloody death is sometimes the result. Pushing it in people's faces across social media is exactly how we hand the enemy just what they want: a weapon and the motivation to use it.

24-Feb-21
when it comes to young hunting ambassadors, she's a pretty darn good example if you ask me.

https://www.facebook.com/Merelizevdm

From: tobywon
24-Feb-21
Isn't it a stretch to compare posting photos on Bowsite, a hunting website, to Facebook? Two very different platforms. Maybe I'm wrong....lol

From: tobywon
24-Feb-21
Ricky, if she posted the giraffe photo and pictures of the village benefiting from the kill, I would agree. She publicly stated that she was taunting with that photo. She didn't need to stoop to that level. Sorry, for that reason, she is not a great hunting ambassador in my eyes. I know some will differ in opinion, but that's the way I see it. I wont allow my kids to taunt in sports, hunting, or anything else in life.

From: LBshooter
24-Feb-21
How is it respectful to grab the heart of an animal you just shot, hold it up and put a big smile on your face in a pose ? The hunting community prides itself as pro conservation and ethical in their hunting practices, to me that shot is really F-ing stupid,To the public eye it is even more idiotic. Respect for the game we take should last after the kill and the way she's posing is for from it. Understand she's excited but you can be pumped and respectful at the same time, I think she dropped the ball. She just gave some great ammo to the antis next time a debate on hunting comes up. I can see it now , they hold that pic up and say," this is not hunting, this is barbaric" and I bet they would get the majority of the public to agree.

From: MathewsMan
24-Feb-21
Heck we have all run into uneducated people who hear or see us talking about hunting pretty normal game species like bears, mountain lions, even moose or sheep and the typical statement oddly is that they thought that hunting those was illegal because they are protected. Even some serious hunters are clueless about some of the game animals and management.

From: Toonces
24-Feb-21
30 - 40 years ago progressive causes, specifically about gender identity, orientation, etcetera wasn't supported by 49% of the public.

Now it is all considered mainstream.

It didn't become mainstream by people not being obnoxious about it.

From: Teeton
24-Feb-21
If your going to post a hunting pic on facebook. Theres a proper way to post it and a way it should be worded to tastefully make a statement about hunting and hunting conservation. The heart with her statement was just plan bad. One more nail !! Ed

From: Ambush
24-Feb-21
I think Link wins. Show the Giraffe pic with an explanation that explains why it is good for the sustainability of the species. Then show all the people it feeds and employs. The people who would otherwise kill it after dark to preserve their crops and to sell what little they could without getting caught. A bunch of happy village women and kids would go a long ways to taking the edge off and gaining understanding.

From: DanaC
24-Feb-21
Sean, the key difference is that they can't legislate away people's sexual preferences, but they dam' sure CAN legislate away our hunting. No? Are you too young to remember the infamous 'Proposition One' in Massachusetts? No more fur trapping, no more bear hunting with hounds. Bang, gone.

From: jstephens61
24-Feb-21
Stupid is as stupid does?

From: Toonces
24-Feb-21
DanaC,

Sure they can. At one time the leaders of progressives (Bill and Hillary) were both vocally opposed to same sex marriages. There is legislation involved with that and other issues such as workplace discrimination, benefits, education, all involving gender identification issues.

Those folks won, and continue to win by being intentionally provocative and in your face at all times and in all media outlets. You ever seen pictures of the gay parades in California. Do you think they are trying not to be provocative? What the progressives do is strategic, and it works.

You do that long enough and things that seemed absolutely crazy thirty years ago you don't think twice about today.

You can't normalize behavior if that behavior is hidden. It has to be exercised notoriously.

From: lv2bohunt
24-Feb-21
Someone that supports the photos should tell the rest of us who exactly will we recruit into hunting and what group of non-hunters will we win the support of by posting pics like these.

From: GF
24-Feb-21
“ Those folks won, and continue to win by being intentionally provocative and in your face at all times and in all media outlets. You ever seen pictures of the gay parades in California. Do you think they are trying not to be provocative? What the progressives do is strategic, and it works.”

If you can’t tell the difference between not hiding and trying to piss people off, you’re beginning at a conceptual disadvantage.

All of the LGBTQEtc people I know have won me (and many others) over by being thoughtful, respectful, and generally just BETTER PEOPLE than the vast majority of people who can’t abide the idea of an “alternative lifestyle”.

You want to make friends for Hunting? Invite a non-hunter to dinner.

From: midwest
24-Feb-21
lol....Toonces actually makes a lot of sense. Maybe we need to be doing the exact opposite of what we think we should be doing.

It worked for George Costanza!

From: DanaC
24-Feb-21
Sean, we're not trying to 'normalize' hunting. We're trying to PROTECT it. This is why your analogy doesn't hold water, sorry. Being an obnoxious d-bag is NOT normal hunting behavior. (At least I hope not!)

From: Toonces
24-Feb-21
Honestly not trying to be funny here, I do believe it.

Agree or not, the political and social progress made by the gender identification movement is astounding. A lot of that was illegal not that long ago, and now gay pride flags are flown at state capitals.

I do concede a significant difference is they had nothing to lose. I am just not sure that playing not to lose means we will eventually win.

This movement isn't successful because they worry about not pissing people off who are on the fence. It is just the opposite.

From: 12yards
24-Feb-21
Screwball, to me that is not a picture of a hunter proud of her kill. It paints a picture of a sociopathic bloodthirsty killer. Not really sure what her point of posting the picture is. And if I, as a hunter, am confused, imagine what our non-hunting potential allies think.

From: Brotsky
24-Feb-21
George is getting angry!

From: Screwball
24-Feb-21
Doing what has been done and is being practiced is losing. Look at what is making progress in the US. BLM, ANTIFA, and yes alternative lifestyles, etc. Obnoxious, in your face, don't back down. We need to learn and adapt, to what is now main stream means to an end. Look at politics, agendas, Supreme court nominee attacks. Nothing is out of bounds. I live in a small rural community in Northern WI. I am a Teacher, Athletic Director, and Coach. I have learned in the last five years their are no boundaries any more, nothing is out of line that people will attack the personal parts of a person. Loud, in your face, and they are winning!

From: GF
24-Feb-21
“ This movement isn't successful because they worry about not pissing people off who are on the fence. It is just the opposite.”

Or maybe they’re successful DESPITE the minority of provocateurs among them. It’s easy to justify pissing off people you don’t have to deal with every day, but it’s the people you deal with every day who are most likely to shape your opinion regarding one group or another. Fortunately, most people do still trust what they see across the table/counter/back-yard fence more than what they hear and see on the national news.

And FWIW... You don’t suppose that your “news” channel of choice isn't presenting something that already matches your worldview, do ya? You know, just to hold onto Ratings??

From: Brotsky
24-Feb-21
You guys are forgetting the most important rule of success with "in your face" politics. You need a complicit mainstream media. That takes many years to obtain. Once you have a complicit media you can do and say whatever you want and the spin will be properly applied to make you look like the second coming. Anyone think we have a media that will support "in your face" hunting? If you do I have a dominion voting machine for sale. :)

From: Toonces
24-Feb-21
GF - not sure I understand your last comment. I really don't have a preferred news source. I haven't watched any news really ever.

I just see what I see, and one side is exceedingly successful at promoting their agenda and changing society. That is not a critique of them, it's a compliment. What they have accomplished is truly astounding in a short period of time. They must be doing something right.

From: Kevin Dill
24-Feb-21
2 steps above^. Brotsky....outstanding observation.

From: Screwball
24-Feb-21
Toonces is right and Brotsky I agree. That is where I am saying we need an organized group to raise funds, create a social media platform, wealthy donors, other media sources. We are being outmaneuvered. We want to play by the old rules, taking the high ground and we are losing all the ground. Their are no rules any more.

From: GF
24-Feb-21
Not so much you, Toonces - but watch the coverage of the same Gay Pride parade on Fox and on a national broadcast network, and tell me that you would have ever guessed that the two were the same event.

Brother Brotsky raised a good point in some respects; the “mainstream media” is mainstream mainly because it’s just so..... mainstream.

You can believe what you want about them, but whether people want to hear and believe the truth or they want to believe that what they are hearing IS the truth, the mainstream does both shape and reflect the majority mindset.

And anyone who disagrees with the presentation has a choice between offering a rational argument or coming across as a raving lunatic. I guess I have already made as rational an argument as I am capable of in favor of the former, so I guess I’m out. I mean, not Out, you know, but ... you know... not that there’s anything WRONG with that....

From: 4nolz@work
24-Feb-21
she wants to be controversial so she becomes famous its just unneccessary self promotion and shes doing it for the wrong reasons

From: GF
24-Feb-21
Well, that IS the worst of it, yet somehow she’s finding support among a lot of the same people she just threw under the bus for her personal gain....

From: Toonces
24-Feb-21
Of course her motivation is attention and personal gain. But lets not fool ourselves, most people that are universally considered to be good ambassadors for hunting aren't doing it for entirely altruistic reasons. They are earning a living or gaining fame and using hunting to do it, just less controversially.

From: Jaquomo
24-Feb-21
Toonce's strategy missed the most important factor - in every one of his examples, the global mainstream media promoted it nonstop, 24/7. Until that happens with hunting - and it never will, we will continue to be marginalized and decrease in numbers.

24-Feb-21
Sone things are best kept within the crowds that think alike. Unless you want to stir the pot. That was her intent and she made no bones about it.

I think Link said it pretty well. In translation, some tact is better then an in your face approach sometimes.

I won’t condemn her for her no apology approach to hunting. Because she is in the tent with all of us. But, had she shown the benefit of her investment besides using it to tick people off, she would have accomplished the support of that 80% group when the anti’s jumped on her. By default.

24-Feb-21
And Laura Boebert, God Bless her, didn’t have to have that interview with her sporting rifles in the background either. But she’s got bigger balls than our so called conservative politicians and she definitely has my support!

From: Jaquomo
24-Feb-21
Trophyhill, agree in principle. The difference is, Lauren Boebert doesn't have the liberal majority from Denver-Boulder-Fort Collins as her voting base.

From: Spiral Horn
24-Feb-21
To the hunting community the trophy pic and showing the size of the heart is actually quite interesting. And she is correct that Giraffe Bulls generally get much darker with age.

But the non-hunting public doesn’t usually see this stuff unless it is on the news or social media and unfortunately the press loves to stir, so naturally the pics get the widest distribution when coupled by the spin and outright misinformation from the antis. Where she really caused harm was noting that it was done to taunt.

She also picked a doozy of an animal to show off. Nothing gets a bigger emotional reaction than Giraffes, Elephants, and Big Cats.

If she wanted to help she should have shown all of the locals showing up for free meat, because that’s the way it really happens. And most of the meat the locals get is provided via hunting operations.

It isn’t just hunting pics either, the uninitiated public would likely be even more outraged if they saw a video tour of the average livestock processing facility. The majority urban and suburban population is often far removed from any concept of reality in how meat gets to the table, or anything in the natural world. When they see a nature show it is usually highly edited footage.

From: Screwball
24-Feb-21
In the public today "Perception is Reality". The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. All the approaches offered as counters to her tactic are the tried and true and again we are losing. She is financially able to confront others and not worry about the consequences.

From: Gunny
24-Feb-21
Haven’t read all the posts.

I get what some of you are saying. I wouldn’t post a pic like that, but also don’t kind she did it. Been hunting over 40 years in multiple states, and have never ran across an anti. Wish I could sometime. I’m not very tolerant of that.

My thoughts are, f*ckem! I’m not here to appease the anti wackos. Again, don’t go out of my way to antagonize, but sure as hell won’t go out of my way to please them.

24-Feb-21
True Jaq. But I view her as someone who stands up against tyranny for all Americans. Not just CO residents. She held a rally down here in Alamosa just north of where I’m working, and they love her down here. I don’t think this is her district either.

From: Rocky D
24-Feb-21
“Sean, we're not trying to 'normalize' hunting. We're trying to PROTECT it.“

DanaC, “normalize” hunting is exactly what we need to do.

From: GF
24-Feb-21
There’s no better protection than normalization; if it’s “normal”, them you have to be ABNORMAL to oppose it.

Wanting to be able to eat free range, organic meat isn't merely “Normal”, it’s relatively Virtuous. Being willing to take personal responsibility for the death of the animals you eat takes it to a level that 90+ percent of people can’t/won’t go to, and the reasonable ones have no choice but to acknowledge that they can’t honestly make that statement. Respect ensues.

Beating your chest over P&Y inches and big trophy rooms are not “relatable” to non-hunters; and what this Ditz pulled is just destructive to everything that’s good about hunting...

From: PushCoArcher
24-Feb-21
Right on Gunny!

24-Feb-21
Non-hunters who are not antis look at iconic animals that they usually only see in zoos (like lions, giraffes, elephants, etc) differently than say, a deer. These animals evoke more of an emotional reaction.

Posting a picture with a dead deer compared to a dead giraffe is very different to the non-hunting public.

From: Jaquomo
24-Feb-21
+1 Ike. I have nonhunting (voting) friends and relatives who are perfectly cool with what we do, get that we eat the meat and do it ethically but who also can't understand the overall picture. The media has done a great job marginalizing and vilifying western hunters hunting African zoo animals.

Even after explaining all the facts, they still argue the "Yeah, but..." logic because they can't grasp how much this benefits the people and the animals. Instead, "They're so BEAUTIFUL! "

From: gobbler
24-Feb-21
Nice giraffe

From: GF
24-Feb-21
"They're so BEAUTIFUL! "

Funny how much less beautiful they are when they’re eating your hedges or coming through the windshield....

Funny to me how many plain, heavy-set people are OK with eating cows, but deer are “too pretty” to eat....

From: DanaC
24-Feb-21
"She is financially able to confront others and not worry about the consequences. "

To HERSELF, fine. But the consequences to the rest of us?

25-Feb-21
if I had a dollar for ever "attaboy" and "great shot bro" response posted here for pictures of animals with gaping wounds, hearts with broadhead holes, etc., I could fund my own giraffe hunt.

if anyone cares to actually look into what the lady is all about, you will see that she is a tireless promotor of hunting and conservation in Africa (her home) and anti poaching causes. even the giraffe heart that everyone is so upset about was made into an education video for an African school project in order to teach African children more about the wildlife around them. check it out for yourself...

https://www.facebook.com/825866377497112/posts/3647016045382117/?d=n%3Cbr

and while youre at it, scroll through her entire facebook page and you will see that she isn't anything like the blood thirsty self promoter that she is made out to be by some here.

this young woman should be applauded by hunters, not degraded by people jumping on hit pieces done to disparage her in publications with an anti hunting agenda.

From: VogieMN
25-Feb-21
"Nobody said anything about 'hiding' it. But 'showing' it to needle people puts us in a bad light. When that is done ON PURPOSE, it's stupid. "

I agree with this completely. There's a HUGE difference between hiding something and showing it off. If I'm having a conversation with someone who isn't anti hunting but doesn't hunt, it's a much easier and smoother conversation to talk about a picture of a dead animal then it is a picture of someone holding a bloody heart of an animal.

From: Catscratch
25-Feb-21
Ricky, I actually researched her some last night and came up with the conclusion that she is doing a wonderful job promoting hunting. You detailed it well 2 posts above. I imagine she is doing far more FOR hunting and conservation in Africa than most... and she has the guts to attack the anti's head on. I'm impressed with her. I can't imagine a hit piece or MSM promoting something with bias (lots of sarcasm).

From: PushCoArcher
25-Feb-21
Yet so many on here saw one photo that upset their delicate sensibilities and rushed to judge someone they don't know. Dana hows the campaign of appeasement working in Massachusetts?

25-Feb-21
The one photo made Fox News, and millions of voters views. It is not the "delicate" hunters here anyone has to be concerned with, we know how most of them vote. Yes, there are a few real losers here, mostly uneducated. I expect from the posts on this thread, they are the minority of hunters. At least I hope so.

From: DanaC
25-Feb-21
William, try living some place where the sentiment is so far against you. I was campaigning for shooters' and hunters and trappers rights ages ago. I know what it's like to see our rights taken with the stroke of a pen or an a**hole 'referendum' vote. I'm *still* plugging away trying to keep our rights from further erosion. 'Appeasement'? Kiss this...

From: PushCoArcher
25-Feb-21
So if someone has a different opinion then yours they are losers and uneducated? Can't argue with that.

From: DanaC
25-Feb-21
William, don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say.

I will say this - if strutting your attitude means more to you than doing the work of educating the public, suit yourself. But don't tell me you're *helping*, cause you dam' sure ain't.

25-Feb-21
thank you catscratch. i bet most of the people that are tripping over themselves with their ethics virtue signaling never even bothered to look at the fb posts that generated all the hoopla, let alone her entire body of postings. there is nothing on her page that I wouldn't be proud to have my own kid post.

25-Feb-21
I can see both sides of this agreement.

It seems obvious that we should walk on eggshells around non hunters and non hunters and try to appease them to “allow” us to hunt a little longer.

The flip side is that appeasement has never worked in any area of life. To think by us hiding, that hunting will survive in today’s society where soon it will be outlawed to declare what gender your children are is being naive.

From: Pat Lefemine
25-Feb-21
It’s PR 101. A single horrific (to the non hunting public) image going viral on social media renders everything good about the person or her conservation efforts meaningless since nobody will see that. Certainly the Media will not call out her good work for conservation.

Nobody on this site is offended by the image. But she didn’t post it on Bowsite, she posted it on Facebook where algorithms controlled by a platform that is not friendly to hunters made sure that image went viral.

Social media is not our friend.

From: Lawdy
25-Feb-21
A colleague of mine worked for the Columbus Zoo in Ohio. They put down a giraffe and took out the tenderloins and ate them. He said the meat was elegant. I bet the natives welcomed the meat from that giraffe she shot.

25-Feb-21
I am quite sure he did not go on Facebook and post the butchering of a zoo giraffe for meat. However, consuming meat is fine.

25-Feb-21
By the way, if I was eating zoo animals (or knew someone who did) I would not post it here. I would simply utilize the meat, and be quiet. This too is a public forum.

From: 12yards
25-Feb-21
Bingo Pat!

From: PushCoArcher
25-Feb-21
Dana your first response made more sense. Why did you edit?

25-Feb-21
I agree with Pat, especially about SM not being our friend. FB will censor political stuff, but allowed this to go viral? Anyone surprised really?

25-Feb-21
bowsite IS social media.

From: Jaquomo
25-Feb-21
It's obvious some of you have never faced a statewide election about hunting methods or species where the opposition used our own graphic images and videos in their media campaign ads. I have, it ain't pretty, and we got slaughtered in the election both times (70-30%).

25-Feb-21
The easy answer to hunters is, just get off of social media such as facebook twitter and the others. It’s an addiction that you don’t need! I honestly don’t see why people feel the need to be on those sites where you do get sensor’d

25-Feb-21
its not like the opposition can't find all the pictures they need from hunting sites. youre dreaming if you think the opposition will just go away if we hide the reality of what we do. if a media campaign with graphic images and videos were all it took, abortion would have been illegal long ago.

25-Feb-21
Lou I agree with you and Pat and all Making the same point. It’s not a good idea to rub it in peoples faces.

But I disagree that in the long run it matters much.

Society is moving to a softer, phony existence and they will not put any bans up to a vote.

They will ban certain gun ownership and hunting without a vote . Non hunters will never get a chance to vote yes or no.

So you could argue. And some are

We may as well go down with conviction and stand up for our beliefs instead of hiding and appeasing.

What a sad state we are moving towards.

Many of us Remember the Sunday hunting shows on network TV with Kurt Gowdy. where a large portion of U.S. families watched. Now we are pushed into hiding.

From: Lawdy
25-Feb-21
That zoo giraffe was critically injured by another giraffe, they didn’t kill it for sport. Also, it happened back in the 80’s before we were all eternally offended. Lighten up guys, the rest of the giraffe became dog food. They didn’t post pictures of it, though the death probably made the paper. Pretty stupid to post pictures of an animal you killed I would surmise from the lecturing, after all, this is a national site and if we truly cared about feelings, we would shoot a deer, rush it home with a tarp over it, and butcher it behind closed locked doors. Finally, never even think of having the head mounted. What if an anti sees it. What the hell did you expect for Art, the giraffe, a big funeral with a high mass? Another giraffe kicked the living crap out of it, it wasn’t shot by a trophy hunter.

From: Screwball
25-Feb-21
Running and hiding is not the answer to our future. Social media is here. We need to use it to our advantage.

From: deerhunter72
25-Feb-21
My thoughts are that it was in poor taste to post those photos on social media. No matter what her intentions were or how much good she does, those pics are counterproductive and she will be seen as a maniac. I can kind of see her point to an extent, but using social media to further her cause is futile.

From: Pat Lefemine
25-Feb-21
Ricky, this site is not social media. It’s a bowhunting forum. Social media is a platform, not tied to any particular interest, for the purpose of sharing and connecting with friends, family and strangers.

Can they find pics here and copy them to Facebook? Yes. But do you notice we have no “share” hooks into Facebook like our competitors use?

There’s two reasons this: first, those hooks give Facebook access to our data (your data). Most importantly it makes it a chore to share our content on Facebook. If it does get shared, they violate our copyright which allows me to submit a violation to Facebook and demand it’s removal.

This has limited our reach into the hunters on Facebook no doubt, but it gives me and my visitors some level of protection from the viral mob that thrives on platforms like Facebook.

I also have no desire to add content to a platform that does not support or respect free speech and is partial to one political party.

From: Jackaroo
25-Feb-21
Life and death are abstract concepts to the masses. They weren’t raised on a farm where to get meat you have to kill and butcher. Meat to them comes from the waiter or on a styrofoam tray at the grocery. My vet told me recently that 90% of his clients don’t want to be present when the put the family dog down. They can’t deal with the reality. You see it in their reaction to Covid. They believe some government , policy or some person smarter than them can save them from a disease. The best tactic in politics is to use someone own words against them in this case pictures, as Jag said above. The interesting thing is it’s absolutely unnecessary to post photos of any sort. Some of the best hunting books in history painted the story in your mind.

From: GF
25-Feb-21
“ Social media is here. We need to use it to our advantage.”

Which is the opposite of what happened here....

25-Feb-21
Pat, Thank you for that background info. I really appreciate the fact that you try to keep a wall between this forum and Facebook. Which as you said, is not our freind.

From: Lawdy
25-Feb-21
Animal rights activists don’t realize that a chicken, hog, or steer has a zero chance of avoiding slaughter. I don’t release my hogs before I kill them and chase them down. A deer, on the other hand, has probably a 99% chance of avoiding my arrow. Up here, the little town newspaper in our county regularly posts pictures of deer killed by locals. Every so often some flatlander writes a letter protesting and an editorial follows, basically telling them to stick it and go back to where they came from.

From: Lawdy
25-Feb-21
Animal rights activists don’t realize that a chicken, hog, or steer has a zero chance of avoiding slaughter. I don’t release my hogs before I kill them and chase them down. A deer, on the other hand, has probably a 99% chance of avoiding my arrow. Up here, the little town newspaper in our county regularly posts pictures of deer killed by locals. Every so often some flatlander writes a letter protesting and an editorial follows, basically telling them to stick it and go back to where they came from.

From: deerhunter72
25-Feb-21
Pat, I appreciate what you do to keep Bowsite as is. It's a personal preference, but I do not use social media and wouldn't be here if this forum was linked to FB. Thanks

25-Feb-21
" i bet most of the people that are tripping over themselves with their ethics virtue signaling never even bothered to look at the fb posts that generated all the hoopla, let alone her entire body of postings."

I don't even look at my girlfriend's FB posts, so why would I look at hers? I don't care if she buys the entire country of Tanzania and turns it into a wildlife sanctuary - if you post a dead African animal on FB while holding its heart in your hands, you're going to irk a ton of people who do not hunt, but hold the power to vote against hunting rights here in North America.

Doctors still go to prison for murder even if they've saved countless lives.

From: 12yards
25-Feb-21
I and my friends have posted kill pictures on Facebook and I don't once remember getting negative comments about them. I don't do it anymore, mainly because I don't want to come across as a bragger. On here I don't mind posting my pics because my animals don't compare to you guys' animals, so I'm not bragging on here. I'm humbling myself, lol. My point is, posting a kill shot of a dead buck, elk, bear, etc. doesn't really elicit much negativity in my opinion. Now, if I'd posted a photo holding the bloody lacerated vitals, I think it might draw some criticism and disgust.

I've been through hunter education with a couple of my boys. One of the first things they talk about is maintaining a positive image for hunters and that the 80+/-% of non-hunters are who we need to worry about. I agree with that.

25-Feb-21

Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo

25-Feb-21
as I said, if she was my kid, there is nothing I saw posted on her page that I wouldn't be proud of.

From: Pat Lefemine
25-Feb-21

Pat Lefemine's embedded Photo
Pat Lefemine's embedded Photo
Sorry, but that definition does not define this website. We have no social networking component.

Or I can simply say ‘you are right’ if it makes you feel better.

From: Toonces
25-Feb-21
Pat,

You must really not want this website to be defined as Social Media for some reason to play this kind of gymnastics with the definition.

By any reasonable definition of the term, this website clearly is social media.

From: Toonces
25-Feb-21
This is taken from farther down the Wikipedia article you are quoting listing website forums as social media.

While the variety of evolving stand-alone and built-in social media services makes it challenging to define them,[2] marketing and social media experts broadly agree that social media include the following 13 types of social media:[34] blogs, business networks, collaborative projects, enterprise social networking, forums, microblogs, photo sharing, products/services review, social bookmarking, social gaming, social networks, video sharing, and virtual worlds.

25-Feb-21
There was no such thing as the term social media when this site was born into existence. It was and is a bowhunting site. There is no like button. There is no link to Twitter or Facebook. I agree this is not a social media site. It is a hunting site.

From: Pat Lefemine
25-Feb-21
I think a better definition for us would be an “antisocial network” ;-)

From: Lawdy
25-Feb-21
I am not allowed on FB as a coach nor would I want to be. This might be considered social medium, but it is not like FB, etc, where one can get into trouble conversing with athletes or students. Of course they could come on Leatherwall and get into a hell of an argument over instinctive shooting.

25-Feb-21

Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
we can play this game all day long if you want but it doesn't really matter. if an anti group wants to find ammo to use against hunters, there is plenty of it available here. whether it's a picture of a heart, a gaping hole in the side of an animal, or calling bucks on your land your "inventory," anti hunters will get what they need to attempt to paint us in a bad light. hunters attempt to kill animals that will do anything they can do to survive. that involves blood and guts but it is a hell of a lot more humane than dying of starvation or disease, not to mention that hunters fund virtually all wildlife conservation efforts. if hunters can't get those points across to non hunters, we aren't doing our job. all the cowering and sterilization of what we do wont mean squat.

From: Kevin Dill
25-Feb-21
If we are so intent on holding ground and never backing down, it makes no sense to taunt our enemies with images designed to elicit outrage. I feel extremely confident opinionating that better than 90% of all Americans would find that display of a giraffe’s heart offensive. It doesn’t matter WHAT the context is....the image is so grossly offensive to many that no backstory or justification for the hunt will matter. That’s the problem. She might be Mother Teresa but killing an iconic animal and holding up its bloody heart for all the world to see is getting US judged unfairly.

25-Feb-21
Kevin Dill... did you visit her facebook page to see the entire context of what she posted?

25-Feb-21
It's irrelevant RtCG,

the 90% Kevin is referring to is not going to look at it either. It's in bad taste because of how the content will be consumed and spread and thus, judged.

From: Owl
25-Feb-21
Gratuitous antagonism is not synonymous with unapologetic resolve. It's just stupid, degrading behavior.

25-Feb-21
so now hunters are supposed to cower to how biased news outlets take things out of context and misconstrue what hunters do? good luck with that but count me out.

From: GF
25-Feb-21
You just can’t let that whole “cowering” thing go, can you???

Let’s say you have a co-worker who’s gone Vegan. Do you want him to get in your face about The Evils of Meat every chance he gets, or do you want him to eat his damn tofu and get back to work?

From: Owl
25-Feb-21
She admitted to posting to provoke antis. That's not constructive behavior and that sort of thing reaps what it sows.

25-Feb-21
GF...either way it wouldn't stop me from enjoying every bite of my hamburger in front of him in the public cafeteria.

From: GF
25-Feb-21
Nor should it. Point is, we all eat. Eating a sandwich shouldn’t be an occasion for deliberate political provocation. Because who does that??

From: Pat Lefemine
25-Feb-21
Who does that?

Attention seeking people. Social media platforms like Facebook are infested with them. And about half of our youth is being wired for that behavior. It’s gonna be a weird world when these college kids are running the country.

From: Rupe
25-Feb-21
They would have been just as outraged if she hadn’t shown the heart picture. I’m not going to criticize her.

From: DanaC
26-Feb-21
"They would have been just as outraged if she hadn’t shown the heart picture. "

THEY. The question is, which 'they' are you referring to? I don't give a fig about the militant antis, you ain't gonna budge *their* opinions with dynamite. It's the majority, the 'fence sitters', that are in play here.

Maybe it makes some people happy to be all in-your-face towards the antis, but that doesn't play well to much larger group of voters who might have been our allies. Hard to make a case that we are 'respectful' when just one hunter acts like a jackass. Just one.

From: Rocky D
26-Feb-21
“ If we are so intent on holding ground and never backing down, it makes no sense to taunt our enemies with images designed to elicit outrage.”

I don’t want to upset anyone’s apple cart but what has this thought process done for hunters so far?

I wonder how gay pride marches were so effective as was the the abhorrent behavior of PETA protesters.

Ike, We have had this discussion before and it is the same old mantra that has continuously lost ground in the past. This is like the P&Y future thread maybe P&Y should be more inclusive and make a crossbow category and double their membership!

Hunters want to keep doing the same thing and while expecting different results! Didn’t someone say that this is the true sign of ignorance. So just keep on keeping on and see how that works for you!

This seems to be the same thought process that conservatives have used in their battle against the liberal left. In today’s society either you own the behavior or they own you!

From: DanaC
26-Feb-21
" I don’t want to upset anyone’s apple cart but what has this thought process done for hunters so far? "

Let me ask the opposite question - what has outrageous, or even unintentional, accidental 'bad' behavior cost us? A lot of people have labored long and hard to present gun owners and hunters as safe and responsible. (Remember the 'Eddie the Eagle' campaign?) Then someone has an accident, a child is hurt, and the antis push for more regulations etc. *and get them.*

I could give you a couple examples from this area that would make you want to cry. Cost a lot of time and money and effort for 'damage control' that would have been better spent on *expanding* our influence and *improving* our image.

Bad publicity comes at too high a price, in my experience.

26-Feb-21
"Eating a sandwich shouldn’t be an occasion for deliberate political provocation. Because who does that?? "

someone who has been attacked for being a hunter since she was a child...someone who has had physical threats against herself and her family...someone who actually cares about the animals she hunts and knows that hunters are the only reason they even exist in huntable numbers...someone who has been forced to fight back. its not like the giraffe was the first thing she ever posted about just to get in the face of the anti hunters...it is the culmination of years of abuse by groups and individuals that only read about wildlife conservation from their mothers basement. context matters. i admire her for standing her ground and not backing down or attempting to appease the bullies that want to cancel her and every other hunter. thats been tried...it doesnt work.

From: DanaC
26-Feb-21
On a slightly different note, how many of you (us) have read a magazine article on how to take good ('tasteful') trophy/hero pictures after a successful hunt? Pose the animal, make it neat etc. etc.

So I'm on the (yeah) Facebook page of a broadhead manufacturer and they have pictures of guys with their deer, and they have big red look-at-the-awesome-damage-our-heads-do bloodstains. Great publicity *for their product*. Probably sells some heads.

26-Feb-21

Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
wise beyond her years.

26-Feb-21
On The topic of not supporting Facebook or other entities that are anti-hunting. Here are all the companies that have recently signed on to help the Biden syndicate Ban Ammo & firearms

20/20 Vision A&M Records AlleyCorp Alphabet, Inc. Amalgamated Bank Ambition AMC Theatres AOL / Time Warner Ariel Investments LLC Artsy Ascend.io Aspiration AT&T Aura AutoZone Backpack Bad Robot Bain Capital Bank of America Beeswax Begin Betaworks Beyond Meat Bloomberg LP Bonusly Brat Brookfield Property Brud Bumble Burger King Cambly Catch & Release Cerebras Systems Chipotle Circle Medical ClassPass Clearbit Clever Clockwise CNN Color Genomics Comcast Conde Nast Costco Credit Karma Crunchbase Curalate Curtsy Dannon Delta Airlines DICK’S Sporting Goods Disney Company DoorDash Doxel, Inc. Ebay Ecolab Edelman Elektra Labs Emerson Collective Enterprise Eventbrite Farmstead Full Picture Fundera Gap Inc. Gateway Computers GE GEICO Goat Group Golden Graphic Packaging Group Nine Media Gucci Guru Hallmark Cards Hard Rock Cafe Havas Group HBO Hint, Inc. HipDot Hooked Horizon Media Humbition Impossible Foods Interpublic Intuit JOOR Jumbo Privacy Kabbage Inc. Kadena Kanga Knowable Lattice Levi Strauss & Co. Lucent Technologies Lyft MetaProp.vc MetLife Microsoft Modern Fertility MongoDB Inc. MSNBC MTV Navient NBC Universal NCR Corp. Neighborland NewsCred Nextdoor NowThis Nurx Oaktree Capital Oberndorf Enterprises Oceans OfferUp Okta Omnicom Group Openpath Panera Bread Parabol Paravision Paypal Pinterest Plato Design Postmates Presto Prima Progressive Insurance Prologis Publicis Groupe Quartzy Reddit Ribbon Health Ro Roofstock Royal Caribbean Cruises RXR Realty Sara Lee SelfMade Shoptiques Inc. Showtime Cable Network Shutterstock Inc. Sidewalk Labs Sift Skillshare SkySafe Small Door SmartAsset Snapdocs, Inc. Solve.io Sonic Southwestern Bell Splash Square and Twitter Squarespace Standard Bots Subway Sundia Corporation Sunlight Health Superplastic SurveyMonkey SV Angel Symantec ThirdLove Thisopenspace inc. Thrive Capital Thrive Global ThunderCore Inc. Tillable Tinder TOMS Twilio Uber Uniform Teeth Viosera Therapeutics Virtual Kitchen Voxer Voyage Watsi WayUp Whalar Wizeline WPP X.ai, inc. Y Combinator Yelp Yum Brands Zola

From: Rocky D
26-Feb-21
DanaC, as long you support the left then you are the anti hunting community...

26-Feb-21
If you voted for the left, you supported anti hunting!!!

27-Feb-21
^^^ true that.

From: Dale06
27-Feb-21
I personally have no problem looking at the bloody giraffe heart. However, I and those that think like me are in the minority. So why piss off the other side when they outnumber us by a big margin. Or why convert some from neutral on hunting to anti hunters. Stupid is a kind description of this situation.

From: Grasshopper
27-Feb-21
To be honest ,my first thought was "wow, wonder what she looks like in a bikini" so thanks ricky.

I never cared to much about LGBTQ issues tell they starting mandating confused boys can use the same dam bathroom as my daughter, and take her spot on sports teams. Now I am pissed off and offended, they crossed the line for me.

There really is no benefit in offending people to to the point they are just screaming mad and ready for a fight. That is not wise, and that is the reaction she is creating by crossing the line for whomever has a standard that crosses.

From: GF
27-Feb-21
Dude - leave the kids out o’ this. I agree 100% that anatomically/biologically male kids on girls’ teams are problematic as hell... but they are NOT doing it just to piss anybody off.

From: Grasshopper
27-Feb-21
FO

28-Feb-21
anyone who thinks she posted what she did just to piss people off obviously hasnt done their homework, they are just choosing to believe what news outlets feed them. her first post about this years long dream hunt was very classy and respectful.

https://www.facebook.com/Merelizevdm/posts/3639026542847734

it didnt turn negative in later posts until she was attacked, personally threatened and lied about. she didn't throw the first punch but she has no problem punching back. reminds me of someone else...good for her.

From: Rocky D
28-Feb-21
I wonder what the anti hunters think every time that they see see a bait pile? I bet it is close to what they think when they see a giraffe

28-Feb-21
I’m Not arguing for either side of this discussion. But you wouldn’t have search long or hard to find pictures and videos on this very site of people holding hearts of various species. Arrows entering chest cavities extolling the awesome blood trails.

I’m pretty sure there’s even a favorite post on blood trails.

If we think that if we hide in the shadows. And none ever sees our reality. That they will leave us alone. Well that’s debatable

Remember none of our hunting rights that slowly erode will be voted on.

It will be deemed so by the pious politicians

Also I wonder how many here that are so hurt and Disturbed by the post. Have actually read it.

28-Feb-21
"Also I wonder how many here that are so hurt and Disturbed by the post. Have actually read it."

yep. most people only read the fake coverage that the antihunters put out there and then its off to the races to see who can one up the next guy with their ethical virtue signaling.

From: Jaquomo
28-Feb-21
Our hunting rights here in CO sure are being voted on, and next up will be lions and bobcats. And if the EVP of HSUS is correct, bowhunting will be on the ballot in the near future. It isn't the antis who are voting against us, it's the ambivalent nonhunters who are fine with what we do so long as their noses aren't rubbed in it.

We absolutely know what the benign nonhunters thought when they saw videos of bear bait piles on TV. They told us so on election day.

From: Stix
28-Feb-21
If it causes a stir with the public,... why post pictures that cause a stir amongst the voting bloc?

The non-hunting public is on record as opposing trophy hunting. Why give them more ammunition?

Is hunting all about showing trophy animals solely to satisfy the human desire of recognition of self?

Use good judgement in today's climate, or we will we further ballot initiatives and legislation rammed down our throat.

In yesteryear without internet, these photos were only available to folks you had sound judgement to show them to. Now with the internet, they are shown on public forums, accessible to anyone, particularly those who are offended. These are to folks who will vote to restrict hunting.

Trophy hunting, horn porn, very long bow shots, and particularly satisfying a need to post photos solely to promote recognition of self will be a contributing factor in the demise of hunting.

From: Grey Ghost
28-Feb-21
I hope she skinned, sliced, and soaked that heart in milk for at least a day before frying it up with a bunch of onions and butter. Yummy.

Matt

28-Feb-21
Lou, unfortunately, I think Colorado is past the tipping point. Too many hippies and Californians.

Now that cancer is spreading to Montana, Idaho and Az.

I think liberals will take from us in every area of life. If we stand up for conservative values or not.

But I agree, many people don’t want to see blood and guts.

From: Stix
28-Feb-21

28-Feb-21

altitude sick's embedded Photo
altitude sick's embedded Photo
Hopefully no greenies are offended by this stump I shot this morning. I did however glance off a living tree on one shot and scratched its bark. I won’t post pictures of the injured tree.

From: Stix
28-Feb-21
As an addendum to my post above,.. the first line of a quote from my pastor has merit:

Why do we always try to impress people we don't know?,

Buying things we don't need,

With money we don't have.

28-Feb-21
"I think liberals will take from us in every area of life. If we stand up for conservative values or not. But I agree, many people don’t want to see blood and guts."

unless its human, then its their choice.

From: Jaquomo
28-Feb-21
Jay, back in '92 when the bear and trapping initiatives were banned by the voters by a 70-30 margin, Colorado was still mostly red (edit). The governor was a Dem but by today's standards he was very conservative. Nonhunting voters didn't care about these issues until they had them shoved in their faces by the antis and were forced to make a choice.

Now today we hunters are putting stuff in their faces that polls show are distasteful. CO will never return to what it was, but social media has made hunting a nationwide issue, and no matter how much macho "fight to the death" rhetoric we spit out there, our fate lies with our neighbors who don't care what we do as long as it doesn't make them cringe.

28-Feb-21
Lou,

Agreed! If we don’t want others’ alternative life styles shoved down our throats, we need to act accordingly IMO.

From: DanaC
28-Feb-21
" and no matter how much macho "fight to the death" rhetoric we spit out there, our fate lies with our neighbors who don't care what we do as long as it doesn't make them cringe. "

This ^^^

28-Feb-21
https://forums.bowsite.com/tf/bgforums/thread.cfm?threadid=491080&messages=59&forum=4

multiple heart pictures in this one...not one negative comment about posting them or the anits using them as ammo against hunters.

From: Jaquomo
28-Feb-21
Ricky, it's on Bowsite, not public world wide social media that can quickly be taken viral and show up on feeds of people who don't want to see it. That's the difference.

I'm tired of posting this but in case you missed it, the antis used our own video clips in the TV ads during the bear hunting election campaign here in CO. The EVP of HSUS told me they have a large library of horrifying video clips and still photos from bowhunters to use when they start putting bowhunting on the ballot. He was giggling when he told me this.

And what will be our defense?

28-Feb-21
if you think the anti groups don't know about every hunting forum the web and wouldnt hesitate for a second to use any picture or video they can against hunters youre very naïve.

28-Feb-21
It’s NOT the picture of the giraffe, or the heart, that has many/most saying that what she did was stupid. The overwhelmingly majority of those on Bowsite are hunters and have ZERO issue with someone posing with an animal they’ve legally killed. We proudly do the same thing. However, according to Van De Merwe, “she posted the sickening photo to taunt the animal rights lobby”. In doing so, she intentionally brought unwanted/unneeded negative attention to all of us. And yes, that was just plain stupid regardless of what kind of spin anyone wants to put on it. Fact of the matter, I could care less about it if she pissed off the antis. They are who they are and they won’t change their stance anymore than I’ll change mine. It’s the 80% that are neither antis or hunters, but may very well be offended, that I am concerned about. Enough of them get swayed to the other side and our way of life could end at the ballot box.

Maybe she has been a positive ambassador for hunting rights and has done things that put hunters in a good light. Hopefully she’ll continue to do positive things, but we as hunters can certainly do without the intentional negative crap. We had a saying in the military... “It only takes one “Oh Sh!t” to wipe out a whole bunch of atta boys.” In this case I’d say it’s equally fitting in the civilian world.

From: Jaquomo
28-Feb-21
Ricky, it isn't antis plucking pics from Bowsite that we need to worry about. It's the lady down the road who doesn't have a second thought about hunting, who gets the viral Facebook feed of the dead giraffe and bloody heart. She understands deer hunting for food and has no problem with it. But she doesn't like trophy hunting and doesn't want to see it with her breakfast.

In Colorado we will soon be voting on trophy hunting (for lions and bobcats). That is how it will be framed and the media will be 100% on board. "Trophy hunting" will be their next battle narrative in the U.S.

From: Rocky D
28-Feb-21
We continue to fight amongst each other all the while losing ground when it comes to the ballot box! We are fighting symptoms of the cancel culture that have been indoctrinating Americans in this nation’s finest institutions.

Educators from elementary school to college have been pumping John Muir to Rachel Carson for decades and have been very effective in pitching their positions on a variety of issues. The left’s mantra today is listen to the scientists but when it comes nature they historically have strayed on most issues when it comes to legislation.

Currently predators have more protection than the prey. Bobwhite qual are virtually gone in what was once their Mecca and the Eastern turkey is in decline in the South. Where are the animal rights people fighting for their survival. They are not concerned with animals because their fight is with hunters and many of the ladies down the road have been complicit because they have been conditioned by our own education system.

The cancel culture are so far ahead of conservatives because have been fighting the long game for years! They are engaging strategically with precision strikes and the right is just reacting to their ambushes! We do not have a clue on how to change the current paradigm and we just keep punching away at each other.

From: pronghorn21
28-Feb-21
I agree

28-Feb-21
Rocky,

I am so sick of educators all being lumped together. Christ, the left doesn’t have a monopoly on stereotyping I see.

Last year, one of our most popular educators on campus asked me why we hunters felt the need to post pictures sitting next to a dead animal with a smile on our face. He understands hunting, gladly accepts a package of venison summer sausage i gift him each year, but thinks the smile is disrespectful. He is part of the 80%, why piss him off?

From: DanaC
28-Feb-21
Frank, I don't think a self-satisfied smile is out of place. But 'hero' pix can be tasteful - or not. Respectful - or not. That's the whole point of this thread - we should be respectful - and not just of those who share our values.

From: Rocky D
28-Feb-21
HFW, I didn’t say anything about pissing them off. I think that you need to read the post again.

From: Jaquomo
28-Feb-21
Less about "cancel culture" and more about the massive shift in societal culture. Twenty five years ago a photo of a dead giraffe would be shown to a few friends and maybe posted on the board down at the hook and bullet store. Today it can go viral and be seen by millions within 24 hours.

28-Feb-21
My apology Rocky, too quick on the trigger, as I said I am tired of being lumped in, that approach alienates IMHO.

Dana,

I agree tasteful pictures are OK, my point is if a smile is discomforting to some of the 80%, imagine what a bloody heart does to their thinking.

28-Feb-21
Here’s reality. Had she posted a few pics of the villagers gathering around and partaking in the rewards of meat, and told that story with passion, she could have posted pics of that heart to piss off the anti’s with pride. With total support from all hunters and non hunters alike.

However, as it is now, hunting in general is standing in judgement of all non hunters. Because It’s getting ever easier by the day to paint all hunting as “trophy hunting” I the eyes of the public. In awe you’ve missed it, that’s how they intend to beat us. As hunters use social media to improperly represent what we do. Making the job of Villianizing it to the non hunting public, by anti hunters, as easy as breathing.

It’s a shame the hunters doing this do so with intent to not apologize for hunting. Well, that’s easy if you don’t paint hunting as an in your face cruel endeavor. If we would just be smart about it we’d never loose a battle.

I’m as prideful concerning hunting as anyone. I’ll give not an inch of my hunting rights for compromise short of the anti’s doing their thing and leaving us to do ours. And, I refuse to apologize or make excuses for hunting. But, I can’t see making hunters the bad guys in doing this. It’s so simple to get right if we’d get our heads in the game.

28-Feb-21
"Trophy hunting" will be their next battle narrative in the U.S."

if that's the case, its only a matter of time till the antis start throwing around sayings like let em go let em grow, hes not a shooter yet, hes on my hit list, and buck inventory around. those should play well with the non hunters who are ok with those who hunt for food but don't like hunting for trophies.

28-Feb-21
Ricky, I usually agree with most everything you say. But, that comparison is pretty far off base.

What they are doing is taking our own statements, pics, and actions and twisting it. Labeling it to the non public. And, when the knife is deep enough, hunting in itself will be considered taboo by most non hunters. And, we keep loading their guns for them.

I understand your sentiments. And, as I stated earlier, I’m forced to defend her because she’s in the hunting tent. But, it’d be nice if I could talk with a non hunter about the good her hunt did for the community and the welfare for hunting giraffes in the future. Versus defending her as a hunter. That’s a winnable discussion every single time. Period.

When we get good enough at communication to non hunters that we can stop segmenting hunters into groups, we’ve won the war. As it is now, we are losing enough battles to make that hard. Simply because we don’t think how our actions come across to those who have no desire to hunt.

Posting a story with pics is fine as long as you post the STORY. You can’t leave out the good or mask it with something most will fail to see a benefit too. Post pics of the villagers smiling while gathering their share of the meat. Post pics of them preparing the meat. Post pics of her helping them with their harvest. Heck, post a pic of her with sone villagers holding the heart. Tell everyone the story. And, then smile at the idiot anti’s who’d be throwing lob bombs trying to smear you. Because that’s what’s it’d look like in the eyes of a non hunters looking on.

Humans are very emotional. And visual stimulation is the first key to getting the emotion you want from them. If hunters would give the on looking world an acceptable look into what we do we cannot loose.

From: Jaquomo
28-Feb-21
Antlered game isn't "trophy hunting" to the nonhunting voting public. It is about predator hunting - the things we kill but (presumably) don't eat that bothers them. Bears, lions, coyotes, wolves, giraffes, elephants, African lions, etc.. The narrative has already been framed and solidified.

We can holler about the need to "educate" them until our faces turn blue, but without the help of the MSM, it ain't going to happen. Colorado Parks and Wildlife ran an extensive "Hug a Hunter" TV and media campaign which looked nice but didnt change anyone's mind about "trophy hunting".

From: Stix
28-Feb-21
Bear meat is one of my favorites. That's why I hunt them.

From: Jaquomo
28-Feb-21
Me too, Stix. And I like mountain lion meat too. But the popular narrative is that bears are only hunted for their hides. Which in most cases, is true.

From: Rocky D
01-Mar-21
HFW, I didn’t say anything about pissing them off. I think that you need to read the post again.

01-Mar-21
"But, it’d be nice if I could talk with a non hunter about the good her hunt did for the community and the welfare for hunting giraffes in the future."

if you cant find anything positive to talk to a non hunter about regarding what this young lady has done for hunting, conservation, stopping poaching, community involvement, work on her own farm etc, you are either ignoring it or you are just unwilling to see it. its all there for anyone willing to look but it takes going past the headlines. even the focus on the giraffe heart was mischaracterized. the focus on the heart was done to help school children understand the workings of the giraffe heart and hence the reason for the video.

https://fb.watch/3YBDLshtZ_/

in my opinion hunters actually help the anti hunting movement by allowing what we do to be mischaracterized by them and their willing friends in the media and allowing themselves to be used as useful idiots.

01-Mar-21

From: DanaC
01-Mar-21
" But the popular narrative is that bears are only hunted for their hides. Which in most cases, is true. "

I don't know anybody, not a single soul, who does that. Not sure how things shake out in your neighborhood, tho'.

01-Mar-21
at the end of the day the reason why a person hunts is not all that relevant. if its for nothing more than population control, that is commendable. its the best and most humane way of protecting wildlife and habitat. if you care about either, the only thing that matters is that you do it and do it legally. i have a friend that is an avid hunter and sportsman. hates venison and never eats an ounce of the deer he kills...but none of it goes to waste. he gives every bit of it away.

01-Mar-21
Many bears, especially in Canada and Alaska are killed only for their hides.

From: BC
01-Mar-21
I don't mean to hijack thread but this does tie into the subject at hand. I believe that the education system is part of the problem. The education system in this country is overwhelmingly liberal. I know there are many individual teachers who are conservatives but the overarching system is definetly leftwing.

Years ago I kept my son home from school for one morning so he could go with me to duck hunt on opening day. According to his teacher and principle you would have thought I had committed child abuse. Not because he missed a morning in school but because I was going to teach him about firearm safety and responsible hunting.

When he was older in middle school I was at a parent teacher conference and was browsing around in the student library. They had zero books on hunting or outdoor skills but multiple books concerning animal rights issues (and other leftwing subjects).

I agree that posting this heart picture on social media so that it's picked up by national news outlets is not good for the hunting community. But even without this, we have educators, from kindergarten through college indoctrinating our kids everyday. That to me is a bigger problem.

01-Mar-21
anti hunting groups are masterful at creating infighting between hunters. they love to play the emotional ethics card so one group of hunters are willing offer up another group of hunters or hunting method as a sacrificial lamb. lots of hunters are dumb enough to think that if they just give them that one thing, they will leave them or their method alone. that will never happen. they'll gladly take one group or method at a time...until its all gone. thats the end goal.

From: DanaC
01-Mar-21
"anti hunting groups are masterful at creating infighting between hunters."

We don 't need it. But we also don't need the 'turn a blind eye' attitude when a fellow hunter acts in a way that puts us in a bad light. If we don't police our own ranks, the antis will be happy to a) point that out and b) push to do it for us.

Bottom line, I'll continue to call slobs out for slob behavior.

(And yeah, we should continue to call out the antis for their emotion-driven, anti-scientific approach to wildlife management.)

01-Mar-21
"Bottom line, I'll continue to call slobs out for slob behavior."

anyone that would describe the young lady who is the topic of this thread that way has obviously not done their homework, is virtue signaling, or is just content to believe what certain agenda driven media outlets feed them. simply scrolling through her facebook page for 5 minutes would show that she is nothing like the way she is being portrayed, even by some here...especially by some here...hunters should know better than to buy into that garbage.

03-Mar-21

Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
in case anyone is interested in what this young woman has been up to. thinking this probably wont get nearly as much press coverage as a giraffe heart.

03-Mar-21
Ricky, if you can’t see all that won’t matter to those who don’t hunt. You might be adding to the discourse you claim other hunters are causing.

It won’t matter to any non hunters what she’s done. They’ll remember the self gloating though.

03-Mar-21
Thoughts? As a hunter, I think posting these types of photos is irresponsible. Kind of like riding around town with the tail gate down so everyone can see the kill.

Our lifestyle "hunting " is dying a slow death, some just seem to want to quickly put us out of our misery by posting these types of photos.

We are truly our own worst enemies, it is sad to see so many don't have the common sense to see what the effects really are.

From: TrapperKayak
03-Mar-21
Kiss and tell never worked for me, won't work anywhere IMO. No one need know...or care.

From: GF
03-Mar-21
“ When we get good enough at communication to non hunters that we can stop segmenting hunters into groups, we’ve won the war. As it is now, we are losing enough battles to make that hard. Simply because we don’t think how our actions come across to those who have no desire to hunt...”

There it is!

03-Mar-21
"Ricky, if you can’t see all that won’t matter to those who don’t hunt."

i didn't post it for those who don't hunt. i posted it for those that do hunt, and in my opinion shouldn't be throwing other hunters under the bus. hunters should know better than to side with those who wish to drive a wedge between us by mischaracterizing what we do and why we do it.

03-Mar-21
So, why does a hunter taunt on social media with a bloody giraffe heart? What positive for the hunting community was accomplished?

03-Mar-21
Just because the hide is taken does not mean that bears are hunted for their hides. Many or most sport-hunted bears, whether the meat and/or hide is taken from the carcass, are hunted for hunting's sake. And many for meat.

It's certainly a more difficult argument to make justifying hunting when meat is not consumed. But saying a bear is taken for its hide doesn't help our argument with an anti-hunter or a non-hunter more than saying that it's hunted for the sake of hunting. People don't like to hear that a large animal is taken for its hide. It comes off as fickle.

People just don't understand hunting as an instinctual part of who we are and if they did, they'd be more accepting of it.

Nonetheless, I would guess that the majority of bears that are killed via hunting in North America are consumed because they are black bears that do not live off of largely carnivorous diets. But that differs by location.

I've unsuccessfully gone after a couple grizzlies while hunting other animals, but at no time was I thinking, "ooo, I'm gonna get me some grizzly meat (or hide)." I just wanted to hunt it.

A grizzly hide is certainly an amazing thing to have (I imagine), but I'd still try to kill a bald grizzly. Because I'm a hunter and that's who I am and what I do. I hunt animals.

03-Mar-21
"So, why does a hunter taunt on social media with a bloody giraffe heart?"

did you even read her facebook posts about the giraffe hunt...all of them, starting from the first one? how about the thousands of posts by people who attacked her and threatened her for hunting legally...before she ever posted anything about the heart? what specifically did she post that taunted non hunters?

03-Mar-21
I will not try to explain it to you, others have already done so.

03-Mar-21
thats what I thought. I doubt if you read anything but the biased, factually inaccurate, and highly inflammatory news article you linked when you started this thread.

03-Mar-21
Ok, you win. The image is a great victory for hunters, how dumb I did not recognize it as such.

From: Jaquomo
03-Mar-21
The biased, factually inaccurate, and highly inflammatory news article is what the 155 million nonhunting voters are seeing. They will never know how many little puppies she saved or how much she contributes toward anti-poaching efforts when they vote on a hunting method framed by the media narrative as "trophy hunting".

From: GF
03-Mar-21
Jimmy....

You’re arguing with someone who thinks it’s a good idea to piss off 80% of the voting population in order to Get Even with about 2% who will never, ever, ever, ever agree with Hunting just on what they see as some kind of a principle.

I have the very good fortune to be well acquainted with a man who very quietly brokered the Good Friday peace accords in Ireland. It was no small task.

Suffice to say.... He would agree with you and Lou and the approach that you are taking/advocating in this matter.

04-Mar-21
"The biased, factually inaccurate, and highly inflammatory news article is what the 155 million nonhunting voters are seeing."

you can slam me all you want but the simple fact remains. that is exactly they way the antis will portray every one of us next, no matter how much we try to camouflage the fact that we kill animals for sport. the fact that we try our best for a clean kill, eat everything we kill, or we don't post a hero pic is completely irrelevant to these people. they will not stop until all hunting is gone. if someone isn't posting a picture of a heart, they'll use any picture of a dead animal they can find. if they run out of those, they'll use a beautiful taxidermy mount that they will portray as just another mean hunter shooting a beautiful animal just so we can hang the trophy on the wall. if we stop sharing pictures all together, they will insist that we are so embarrassed by what we do that we are ashamed to even talk about and we must hide it. if that doesnt work, they will show how we try to let their antlers get big enough, even pass laws to require that they get big enough, before we murder them so we can enter them in a record book somewhere, or brag to other hunters about we passed on them and kept them in our inventory until they reach shooter status...and actually get mad at our neighbors who are only concerned about meat and kill bucks before their antlers are big enough. or how about all the outfitters, guides and landowners and taxidermists that profit off the murder of wild animals...etc...etc...etc. we all know those things arent accurate or complete, just like the story about the giraffe, but apparently that doesn't matter now. accuracy better start mattering because we all know the antis have already used them and will use them again. no matter how much we try to sterilize what we do, we will not appease them...ever. hunters are welcome to throw this young lady, who hunts legally and works tirelessly for conservation efforts, under the bus for pushing back against thousands of attacks and threats...which came long before the heart pic was ever posted, but as far as im concerned, hunters who do that are part of the problem not part of the solution. like i said before, if this young woman was my daughter, id be damn proud of her and have no problem saying it.

From: DanaC
04-Mar-21
Ricky, you sound frustrated because 'we can't *win*.

Sometimes you have to play the game not to win, but to avoid losing.

Okay, this young lady got tired of the attacks, and 'fought back'. It's emotionally satisfying, but it doesn't really help. When you're playing to 'maintain', you work to maintain calm, to let the opposition make mistakes, rant and rave, go to extremes, to let them be the crazy ones.

If the young lady is going to continue doing good things for hunting, fine. BUT, she's in the public eye, and that's a tricky place to be. There will always be antis looking to get under her skin, to get an emotional, not-well-thought-out response from her. I hope she can maintain her cool under 'fire'.

(And if I've come across previously as too harsh and judgemental, I apologize.)

04-Mar-21
sorry but I think it is you that is missing the point.

1...nobody ever wins by trying not to lose. they just lose a little slower. you might not be trying to win but they sure as hell are and they are on the offense and we are on the defense. the sooner we realize that the better off we are going to be.

2...nothing this lady did was anything that hundreds of thousands of hunters havent done, and continue to do. it was not illegal, immoral or unethical. worse yet, she is being forced to fight back against inaccurate reporting and mischaracterizations, not only by the antis but by other hunters who havent even bothered to actually see what she is all about.

3...the only way we can protect what we do is to push back strongly against the misinformation (like the original article posted here). every time other hunters buy into the misinformation, the antis win.

4...every hunter is in the public eye, including everyone posting here. if you think the antis dont visit this site daily, you are naïve. so unless we are all willing to stop posting pictures and telling stories we are all next on the chopping block.

From: DanaC
04-Mar-21
And I think you missed my point, which is, you CAN NOT always 'win'. Sometimes you have to fight just to survive. This is, sadly, where we're at. Once you accept that, you learn to 'play the game' differently.

"every time other hunters buy into the misinformation, the antis win. " And every time they egg us on and we make fools of ourselves *in the public's eye*, they win.

" 3. every hunter is in the public eye, including everyone posting here. "

On that, we agree.

From: Tonybear61
04-Mar-21
My daughter who is in college in another town wants to know when we can eat the deer heart I saved from last season. A guy in her circle of friends made one for the group and they thought it was awesome. So there you go, not all kids in their late teens early 20s are nutty vegans, tree huggers or bunny thumpers.

I also found this out over 20 years ago when I used a deer heart I collected while bowhunting for a college physciology project. The Professor and other students couldn't believe I had shot it right thought the heart( that explained the weird cuts on the disection). Yeah I got an A. Only one classmate out of about 120 or so who mubled something about it not being fair...

From: Kevin Dill
04-Mar-21
One of the bottom lines here is this: Without the images of the bloody heart and the attendant statements placed in wide-open social media....there is very little backlash. It's really no different than having the teacher of the year post something on social media which is widely viewed as abhorrent and wrong. Consequences will be severe and deserved. No amount of explaining or contextualizing will matter. What matters is 100% what people see, and how they feel about it. End of story. She put the ball on the tee for the anti-hunters.

04-Mar-21
She said she did it to agitate the antis? If she did nothing distasteful why would it agitate anyone?

04-Mar-21
there is a reason they arent called anti kill picture groups. ALL hunting agitates anti hunters. everything having to do with killing animals agitates anti humters. when will people get that? nothing we do or don't do, short of never hunting again, will satisfy anti hunters.

From: Kevin Dill
04-Mar-21
"when will people get that?"

We get it. We really do. I'm actually with you on defending hunting. My only question is this: When will people get that it makes no sense to help turn non-hunters into anti-hunters? When will people get that you don't fight your adversaries by adding more fuel to their fire...and helping them swing the weight of public opinion in their direction?

We're not against this hunter. We're against flagrant inflammatory displays which are too easy to weaponize against us.

From: Rocky D
04-Mar-21
“ Consequences will be severe and deserved. No amount of explaining or contextualizing will matter. What matters is 100% what people see, and how they feel about it. End of story. She put the ball on the tee for the anti-hunters.”

Hunters have been espousing how hunters should conduct themselves and we are still losing ground. As far as the bottom line goes nothing that we have done has been very effective! Please don’t comeback with the fact that we may have lost more ground because that is by far a to simplistic approach to a very complex problem. As stated above, our society accepts abhorrent behavior in various forms but I can guarantee that they don’t accept if we do not accept it! Using logic to combat illogical ideology may not be the way to proceed in the future. All who think along lines of policing the policed are going to lose a war of attrition by one legislative act after another.

04-Mar-21
that young lady and her husband have done far more for the future of hunting in africa than all the posters on this thread put together...including me. you will never catch me trying to cancel her because she has chosen to fight back against the groups who chose to attack and threaten her first. if she poached that giraffe, id be the fist to call her out. she didn't. she took it legally and ethically.

her attackers are our attackers whether we like to admit it or not. killing animals is never pretty. it always involves blood, organs, and carcasses. that is the reality. some hunters seem content to virtue signal themselves out of existence, not me.

From: TrapperKayak
04-Mar-21
The lady is correct in her claim about trophy hunting in Africa. Displaying a picture of a riddled heart on social media and taunting animal rights activists might not be the smartest thing to do though. (They have penalties for such acts in Pro football..just saying). However..." A member of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals said: "Someone who kills another sentient being, cuts out their heart, and boasts about it fits the definition of a sociopath."One day, trophy hunting will be listed as a sign of a psychiatric disorder, as it should be today. It is grandiosity, serial killing, and bloodlust paired with a burning desire to show off," Elisa Allen told the outlet." is,pure BS. I suppose many who support PETA are also IN FAVOR of ABORTION AND women's right to choose. THAT to me is the definition of a sociopath... killing unborn children who you choose to do.

From: DanaC
04-Mar-21
" nothing we do or don't do, short of never hunting again, will satisfy anti hunters. "

I agree with that, I really do. BUT, I've decided to focus my attention, not on the antis, but on the 'silent' 80%. THEY are the ones who will decide our fate. That's where the antis are focused, trying to sway those folks with emotional 'tugs to the heartstrings.' Showing things in the worse possible light.

How do we fight that? By showing ourselves in the BEST way possible. NOT by responding to shrillness with more shrillness. WE are the quiet conservators of land and tradition. We are the ones spending millions to conserve the forests, open space, access to the outdoors for all. We are the ones who push for healthy wildlife populations, kept in balance with the habitat. We are the ones who press for proper habitat management, so wildlife , all wildlife, remains at healthy, sustainable levels.

No, this doesn't appeal to emotions like the poor puppy with its foot in a trap. But I believe there are far more reasonable people out there who WILL hear and understand a positive message if we send it.

And if that gets me labeled as naive, so be it. I'll die trying.

From: TrapperKayak
04-Mar-21
The lady is correct in her claim about trophy hunting in Africa. Displaying a picture of a riddled heart on social media and taunting animal rights activists might not be the smartest thing to do though. (They have penalties for such acts in Pro football..just saying). However..." A member of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals said: "Someone who kills another sentient being, cuts out their heart, and boasts about it fits the definition of a sociopath."One day, trophy hunting will be listed as a sign of a psychiatric disorder, as it should be today. It is grandiosity, serial killing, and bloodlust paired with a burning desire to show off," Elisa Allen told the outlet." is,pure BS. I suppose many who support PETA are also IN FAVOR of ABORTION AND women's right to choose. THAT to me is the definition of a sociopath... killing unborn children who you choose to do.

04-Mar-21
“Don’t poke the bear” mean anything?

From: DanaC
04-Mar-21
Frank, yeah, it's right up there with 'Don't show your red skivvies to the bull.' ;-)

From: Rocky D
04-Mar-21
Ok, got it, don't poke the bear!

So, does anyone have any recommendations other than continuing with the same mantra that has enabled the continued erosion of hunting opportunities?

Again, the true sign of ignorance is continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results.

From: Jaquomo
04-Mar-21
One particular subset of society with alphabet soup initials gained "acceptance" in the mainstream through continually portraying themselves as normal, everyday nextdoor folks who behave differently behind closed doors. They eventually rallied the media and politicians behind them and they effectively won the war. (Remember Obama's famous flip-flop)

If that same group had continually confronted the general public with explicit pornographic photos and videos of what most normal people consider to be their unnnatural, deviant acts, their fight for acceptance wouldn't have gone so well. We could learn something from them. We want those 150 million voters to say, "I don't care what they do, so long as they don't rub my nose in it".

Ricky, your passion is admirable. We're on the same team. But the tactics must change in today's society. Your approach was tried by leaders of hunting organizations, and even the Wildlife Commission themselves here in Colorado, and we lost the election 70-30%. And that was before Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.

This is a battle for the minds and votes of people who ordinarily wouldn't care what we do until it is shoved down their throats. That's why nobody straps a dead deer on the roof anymore.

04-Mar-21
for about the fifth time, anyone that has actually taken the time to look at her fb history, and not just about the giraffe, but long before the giraffe, years before the giraffe, they would see that she is definitely not the one that poked the bear. anyone who thinks that has obviously not done their homework. people here say if she would have just focused on the locals that would have benefited from the meat, it would be different. had they read past the biased headlines they would know that she DID focus on that, and the locals that were employed because of her hunt and every other one like it. what did it get her? The same mocking, attacks and threats that the heart picture got her.

im not the only one that thinks this way, my pms prove that. most people are just sick and tired of dealing with the "woke hunters" that think they can gain favor with the antis by showing their moral and ethical superiority. sorry charlie, it aint going to work. yep, if you think it will you are being naïve. even the mildest mannered dog will bite when cornered. she has been poked, prodded, attacked, physically threatened, had her family threatened, and everything else up to and including death threats. this has been going on since she was a child hunting with her dad. if he was anything like mine, he would have told her to never throw the first punch but if someone punches you, hit back and hit back hard. this woman is in the hit back hard stage and I respect her for it.

From: Rocky D
04-Mar-21
Joq, I have seen many of a picture of gay pride marches and PETA protest than that of a giraffes heart. This is always the end every discussion along these lines. We have a unique problem that follows the same story line of of many lost opportunities. Hunting is moving from normal to abnormal and we want to continue the party line of policing ourselves! I am just playing the devil’s advocate to try and stimulate some profound thought!

From: Jaquomo
04-Mar-21
Yep, but those pride parades don't show what they do behind closed doors. That's the difference. And the majority of voters don't support PETA largely because of their distasteful antics.

For the 5000th time, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE ANTIS THINK OF US! They are only a tiny subset of the voting public.

Question for Ricky - have you ever been involved in a campaign to vote on or against hunting in some manner?

From: Rocky D
04-Mar-21
Joq, I have seen many of a picture of gay pride marches and PETA protest than that of a giraffes heart. This is always the end every discussion along these lines. We have a unique problem that follows the same story line of of many lost opportunities. Hunting is moving from normal to abnormal and we want to continue the party line of policing ourselves! I am just playing the devil’s advocate to try and stimulate some profound thought!

04-Mar-21
"Question for Ricky - have you ever been involved in a campaign to vote on or against hunting in some manner? "

im not sure what you mean by involved in a campaign, but I have been involved in a number of hunting issues and I am no stranger to anti hunting groups and their attacks on hunting in my state. from bear hunting with dogs, to bear hunting over bait, to dove hunting, to wolf hunting, etc.

my experience has been that hunters can be and often are our own worst enemies. one group doesn't seem to have any problem throwing another group under the bus in an attempt to protect themselves. you can only offer up so many sacrificial lambs before you are the only one left and they come gunning for you but there will be nobody left to fight. the only way to defeat these people is to stick together and never give them an inch. whether we provide ammo for them or not, they will lie, steal, and distort or fabricate whatever they need to in order to win.

04-Mar-21
For the 53rd time, No one here is marginalizing the woman for killing a giraffe Ricky. No one says she doesn’t do great things for hunting. No one says she should cower to the anti’s. No one is saying she is wrong about being tired of fighting them. Finally, no one is saying anything other then sometimes you take one for the team when the end goal is victory.

It’s like we are discussing different things.

04-Mar-21

Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
"Here’s reality. Had she posted a few pics of the villagers gathering around and partaking in the rewards of meat, and told that story with passion, she could have posted pics of that heart to piss off the anti’s with pride. With total support from all hunters and non hunters alike."

i agree. but then again i also know she's already done that. she's made many posts like that many months and many death threats before posting the giraffe heart pic. so can she count on your support now?

From: tobywon
04-Mar-21
Ricky, what you posted above does show that she is a great ambassador for hunting. I initially painted a broad brush stroke with the giraffe heart post. I'll admit when I am wrong, but I still think that she could have handled that one issue a bit better and posted similar to what you posted above without purposely antagonizing the anti's with the heart (she even admitted to doing that). I won't fault her, I'm not in her shoes and living what she does every day.

04-Mar-21
I think if you’d go back and read my first post, you’d know she’s always had my support.

04-Mar-21
thank you tobywon. not one person here knows how they would react if they had to endure what this young lady has had to endure for years, just for legally and ethically pursuing her passion...the same passion we all have. I do know one thing, this virtue signaling and ethics shaming has got to stop. if it doesn't it will eventually be the end of all hunting.

From: Jaquomo
04-Mar-21
Ricky, what I mean is a political campaign where everyone in your state votes on whether to ban a type of hunting. A method or species. Where every time you turn on the TV you see ads that turn the stomachs of nonhunting voters, who until they saw that, didn't think one way or the other.

I have been engaged in two of them. It was ugly, and we got slaughtered on election day despite running campaigns the best we could by arguing science, wildlife management, and heritage. Those are losing arguments when fighting raw emotion. Someone could personally be responsible for saving hundreds of baby bears, but show a video clip of the same person sitting in a tree laughing while a bear is eating donuts from a barrel, then shooting the bear in the ass, and that's all the voters remember.

Here's a challenge for you - show that bloody giraffe heart pic to a nonhunting couple in your neighborhood and ask them what they think. That is the ONLY thing that matters.

04-Mar-21
Ricky,

No disrespect meant here please understand.

I guess I don't understand why she has been harassed and experiencing threats since she was a kid? Not trying to compare, I am a nobody and understand that. But I have been teaching at a community college for 30 years, granted in a conservative state. I don't hide that I am a hunter...pictures and racks in my school office...my zoom background includes two whitetail shoulder mounts...I share a log of summer sausage with students on the last day of class, in every class. They hear me present conservation and PR excise taxes etc, etc.

In 30 years I have endured one negative nasty note slipped under my door, never a bad word to my face. I get it, she is more in the public eye. She fails to get if you are going to accept being in the public eye you have to carry yourself that much better. We agree you shouldn't have to, but the reality is you do. We teach in our HR class that people can judge one another in as little as 8 seconds, and you really expect the 80% to read her FB page before making a judgment? They are not going to, and to think otherwise is a pure pipe dream IMHO.

A lot here will not like this next thought, but we wouldn't have an individual in the Oval Office right now whose cognitive function is questionable at best if another individual would have accepted that most Americans grow tired of in your face behavior. That behavior turned off enough women and college educated folks to throw an election that should have been a slam dunk for the incumbent. I get it, in your face feels good, but is also causes one to lose. I like winning more, and if that means accepting others will vote emotionally and decide emotionally, I will try and let only my good side show. The same people that turned their backs on DJT will decide hunting's future.

I applaud everything this lady does positively for our passion, but right now a lot of folks who probably never even heard of her think her "heart shot" represents what most hunters are, blood thirsty Neanderthals.

04-Mar-21
"Ricky, what I mean is a political campaign where everyone in your state votes on whether to ban a type of hunting. A method or species. Where every time you turn on the TV you see ads that turn the stomachs of nonhunting voters, who until they saw that, didn't think one way or the other."

yes, ive taken part in a number of such ballot proposals and the antis lied, distorted, and played on emotions regardless. its what they do no matter what.

From: Jaquomo
04-Mar-21
Thanks. Which ballot initiatives in what states, and how did the elections turn out?

From: Kevin Dill
04-Mar-21
The problem to the general non-hunting public is the photos. A zoo-type animal, generally thought of as benevolent. Dead. Huge heart dangled in this grinning woman’s hands.

We all know giraffes aren’t benevolent. We kill, and we know what it’s like to take the heart from an animal. We know it is real life and not the zoo. The non-hunting public does NOT get past the pictures. They don’t care about her history, her Facebook page, or her deepest thoughts. They lock on the photos and are repulsed. And there goes a couple of shiny new anti-hunters. So we can either insist it’s fine for her to show those images....defend them as good and normal....and directly help perpetuate the propaganda that this is how we all are. Or we can actually try to understand how our public actions are received by non-hunters and try not to alienate them. Done incorrectly, we are unwittingly recruiting for our enemy.

Edited to add: I don't consider this to be appeasement or backing down. I consider it to be an intelligent, logical approach to hold the ground we occupy. I wouldn't waste a calorie trying to appease an anti-hunter. It's the non-hunting majority of Americans who I believe will play a huge role in the future of hunting. as well as species management.

From: GF
04-Mar-21
“ 1...nobody ever wins by trying not to lose”

I dunno. I’ve been telling my sons their whole lives that there’s no point in winning a Stupid contest just because you can figure out how.

From: DanaC
05-Mar-21
Sometimes playing for the stalemate is your best option. Playing to 'win' can be a losing strategy. And playing just to score emotionally satisfying 'points' is absolutely a losing strategy.

From: Rocky D
05-Mar-21
So we just keep on keeping on listening to all who thinks that they know the correct response. Well, how has that been working for you?

This is like the age thread. Why have a minimum age when you don’t have a bunch kids accompanied by adults having accidents and or shooting people. The problem with governing bodies is that they think that they need to make laws and they do!

05-Mar-21
"Thanks. Which ballot initiatives in what states, and how did the elections turn out?"

three separate initiatives come to mind here in michigan. one was to eliminate hunting bears with bait or dogs...it failed about 2-1. the other two were to actually add seasons for dove and wolf and they both failed by the same amount. i still remember the anti dove hunting ads about what kind of monster would kill "songbirds" and the "bird of peace." just goes to show you, the antis don't need bloody pictures to pull on uneducated heart strings. they are very well funded, very well organized, very focused and very creative. we are none of those things.

05-Mar-21
"Sometimes playing for the stalemate is your best option"

with all respect, when it comes to anti hunters thats the dumbest thing ive heard so far. anyone who knows these loony lefties knows that their strategy is to chip away one animal one method one weapon and one season at a time. you will think you are holding your ground or appeasing them with little sacrificial lambs and before you know it its all gone. they never play for ties...they know better.

From: PushCoArcher
05-Mar-21

PushCoArcher's embedded Photo
PushCoArcher's embedded Photo
Many of you seem to have the mindset that hunting is a terminally ill patient and all that can be done is to make it as comfortable as possible and prolong it's life as much as possible. IMO this view point is as dangerous if not more then someone antagonizing antis and upsetting voters. Maybe I'm young and naive and damage control is all we can do but I just don't see how tearing a young lady down for one mistake moves anything forward. I don't think poking the bear is smart nor do I think censoring the bloody truth behind hunting and appeasing antis is smart. I know one thing if hunting is going to thrive not just survive we as outdoorsmen and women need to work together to improvise, adapt, and overcome the obstacles facing our sport. If you want to do something for the future of hunting take a kid hunting, fishing, trapping, or just outdoors explain the role we play and get them involved.

From: Rocky D
05-Mar-21
“ Many of you seem to have the mindset that hunting is a terminally ill patient and all that can be done is to make it as comfortable as possible and prolong it's life as much as possible.”

Great point!

From: Jaquomo
05-Mar-21
"Many of you seem to have the mindset that hunting is a terminally ill patient and all that can be done is to make it as comfortable as possible and prolong it's life as much as possible.”

Maybe not terminal yet, but definitely shriveling up like a sick old woman. A pursuit doesn't lose as many participants as ours for as many years and still stay healthy. If every hunter could positively influence 10 ambivalent nonhunting voters, we will stay one step ahead of the antis.

05-Mar-21

Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
"If you want to do something for the future of hunting take a kid hunting, fishing, trapping, or just outdoors explain the role we play and get them involved. "

you got that right. i know someone else who gets it too.

05-Mar-21
Nice, respectful picture! Much different than the one in the center of this discussion.

Lou, I agree that demographics are causing hunter participation to decline, yet Covid has caused an increase in recent participation. Will it continue? None of us know for sure, but with tasteful and defensible behaviors on our part the likelihood of hunting continuing to survive has much better odds IMHO.

From: Rocky D
05-Mar-21
“ If every hunter could positively influence 10 ambivalent nonhunting voters, we will stay one step ahead of the antis.”

Sounds like the status quo and if we doubled in size look at the competition for limited resources.

We should be talking how we unite those numbers into a collective voice.

From: Jaquomo
05-Mar-21
^^^ Even if they drop out as late teens, as most do, at least they will understand why we do what we do.

When I was a Park Ranger leading interpretive programs and hikes for school kids it was amazing and alarming how many have absolutely no clue, and whose parents never took them anywhere outdoors besides a city park.

From: Jaquomo
05-Mar-21
Rocky, agreed, but no ody has cracked that code yet. Look how many hunters don't belong to any influencing organizations. Hunters voted to severely limit bear hunting in CO. If every bowhunter simply belonged to their state organization, that would be a huge step forward.

From: Rocky D
05-Mar-21
“ Even if they drop out as late teens, as most do, at least they will understand why we do what we do.”

Hasn’t worked so far and just how influential are these influencing organizations?

Again, we must focus on a collective voice and not some “trickle down” economy like concept. That is not an action plan that could be implemented. Evidently, our cause is not great enough to force us to band together. The challenge is nationalizing the voice to actions that are controlled by the states.

From: Jaquomo
05-Mar-21
Nationalizing an effort to influence at the state level would be a real challenge, considering how few are willing to join their state organizations.

How influential are the state orgs? I can't speak for others but a high ranking official in the CO DOW told me once (he knew I was a hunter but didn't know I bowhunted) that they really wanted to lump archery and muzzleloading into one 9 day season because we are such a pain in the ass. He then said "If it wasn't for the damned CBA, we could make that happen."

05-Mar-21
a big part of the problem is there are a hell of a lot of hunters that while they say they want hunting to grow, it's only lip service. they don't want anyone else in the woods near them. they see every other hunter as competition for their deer. they hate youth seasons because some little kid, or worse yet his dad is might kill their deer before they get a chance. and dont even get me started with younger hunters like the age of the girl in the picture i just posted. no way is that ethical or safe!! nope, the game departments do everything they possibly can to attract new hunters and the current hunters fight them every step of the way...and then complain that we have no clout. we are our own worst enemies...say one thing, do or wish for another.

From: Rocky D
05-Mar-21
Jaq, you are right it would a challlenge and you have lost battles. All that I have said and will continue to say is that if we stay divided we will lose a war of attrition.

From: Realwarrior
05-Mar-21
I agree Ricky Jaquomo, I concur, emotional politics are real, pure and simple. It's how the image of the Napalm girl changed support for the Vietnam War.

06-Mar-21
anti hunter groups are more than happy to have us be their useful idiots. they will gladly use us as long as we are dishing the division up for them. throwing each other under the bus for what some see as tactics or statements or pictures that they think are inappropriate is extremely corrosive. the antis are masters at using us against each other. a very strong ad campaign could be built with nothing but quotes from fellow hunters on this thread. thats what pissed me off so much about this discussion. theyve done it before and theyll do it again...and it will be successful.

just wait until you see an ad somewhere that says "even the owner of one of the largest and most respected bowhunting sites on the web says XYZ..." or "research shows that even many avid hunters find XYZ hunter to be unethical..." whether its accurate or in context doesn't matter. the antis have proven that those things don't matter. once its out there, the damage is done.

06-Mar-21
“ whether its accurate or in context doesn't matter. the antis have proven that those things don't matter. once its out there, the damage is done.”

Exactly! Like a tasteless picture the antis have gone viral with to use against us. You are finally getting it!

From: Grey Ghost
06-Mar-21
I doesn't seem Ricky is capable of distinguishing between non-hunters and anti-hunters. Our concern should be not turning the former into the latter.

For perspective, I looked at the giraffe heart picture and thought to myself "wow, that's a lot of fine meals." My wife, who is a non-hunter but fully supports hunting, looked at the heart picture and was disgusted. She said, "why would anyone post that on social media?"

It's not a matter of "hiding" or "cowering" in the shadows. It's about being cognizant and respectful to the vast majority of our society who will ultimately dictate the future of hunting.

From: Rocky D
06-Mar-21
I hope no one that voted for Biden is giving Ricky advice since all anti hunting groups support the left...

From: Jaquomo
06-Mar-21
Ricky, did you show the photo to some of your nonhunting neighbors to get their reaction, like GG did with his wife?

07-Mar-21
pretty simple to me. a hunter posted pictures of a legally and ethically taken animal. whether I like them or not isn't the issue. the issue is who you support and side with, the hunter who hunted legally and ethically or the antis take on the situation. I side with the hunter...others side with the antis.

07-Mar-21
"Ricky, did you show the photo to some of your nonhunting neighbors to get their reaction, like GG did with his wife?"

i did ask my wife who does not hunt but fully supports me hunting and she was not offended at all. her actual response was "i see that stuff every year." i also showed her the video that was taken for the school kids and her response was "pretty interesting...wow that thing is huge." i will show both to non hunting neighbors later today.

07-Mar-21
showed both the video and the heart picture to my neighbors. neither are hunters.

him: (picture of heart) "damn that is huge." (picture if giraffe) "what is she going to do with that?" (video) "reminds me of when we dissected a cow heart in biology class"

her: (picture of heart) "that's gross" (picture of giraffe) "that would make a pretty rug" (video) "can you forward me that video, Lukey (grandson) would love to see it"

question: does either the picture or the video make you think any less of hunters in general.

him: "no"

her: "not really."

07-Mar-21

Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
final question: want some fresh smoked lake trout?

him: "hell yes"

her: "you better eat that stinky stuff outside."

From: Jaquomo
07-Mar-21
You're making this into a binary choice, and it's not that at all. But you don't get it, so carry on and fight your fight.

From: GF
07-Mar-21
Makes me wonder...

Do you think anyone has done a study to determine how many positive exposures it takes to turn a non-hunter into someone who will vote in favor of hunting and how many negatives it takes to turn them into a reliable Anti.

Because you know it’s not 1:1; we are hard-wired to reject the unfamiliar.... I’ll bet 5:1 doesn’t even scratch the surface....

So I try to keep it positive. I don’t know what the typical conception of a “hunter” is , but I’m always amused when people say they’re surprised to learn that I hunt. People around here just cannot seem to get it into their heads that hunting is any kind of thing that a “normal” person would do... just because they don’t know anybody who does. It’s a really stupid leap of logic, but there it is.

That’s what we’re up against.

07-Mar-21
"You're making this into a binary choice, and it's not that at all. But you don't get it, so carry on and fight your fight."

did i ask the wrongs questions...or did i not get the answers you wanted?

From: Jaquomo
07-Mar-21
Well, Ricky, you said we either side with someone behaving in a way that will turn some nonhunting voters into antis, or we side with antis. That was the gauntlet you threw down - the binary choice.

I side with hunters who dedicate themselves to portraying hunting in a positive light to the nonhunting public.

From: Kevin Dill
08-Mar-21
Aside from already-indoctrinated hunting families, the only group or demographic we can recruit future new hunters from is non-hunters.

08-Mar-21
Last two posts are true.

08-Mar-21
with all respect Jaquomo in my opinion you are the one really not getting it. it might not be a binary choice for you but it definitely is for the them. to them there are either good people who dont kill animals or there are bad people who do. in our minds there are good hunters and there are slob hunters and everything in between. in their mind all hunters are slob hunters...there arent any good ones...and they are more than happy to exploit any divisions to divide and conquer.

08-Mar-21
Sooo, a bloody giraffe heart will get them to come around to our way of thinking????

08-Mar-21
I think Jaquomo and GF have some you outclassed.

08-Mar-21
nope. nothing will bring anti hunters around to the hunters way of thinking...no matter how classy or invisible we try to be. no amount of virtue signaling or ethics shaming will change their minds...thats the whole point...all it does in create the crack between hunters that they are looking to exploit...and its working. a house divided against itself cannot stand.

From: DonVathome
08-Mar-21
I also think it was not helpful for us. There are a LOT of middle of the road people who can easily be swayed either way. I believe there are about as many hunters as anti hunters. 5% each of the US population. That leaves 90% neutral. I f we offend just 5% of the neutral we have doubled the anti's and are drastically outnumbered.

I fully support her hunting and being proud just wish she had been a little more tactful.

08-Mar-21
“that’s the whole point”

No, that isn’t the whole point. Ironically, you’re one of the very few that doesn’t get the whole point. Nobody’s arguing the fact that the anti’s mind’s won’t be changed. It’s not the anti’s we’re concerned about. It’s those non hunters that can be swayed either way. Senseless pics will not sway them to our way of thinking, but they may certainly push them to the dark side. How you can’t grasp this concept is mind boggling.

From: Jaquomo
08-Mar-21
Ricky's passion is in the right place. His logic seems to be focused on the 5%, while missing the 90%. Somehow he can't grasp the difference.

08-Mar-21
bull @#$%...youd be absolultely wrong if you think I don't understand what youre saying or understand the difference. i fully understand it, i just don't happen to agree with the strategy. im saying that there is no possible way that we can sterilize what we do enough satisfy those that wish to use whatever they can to paint us in a bad light. hell, if we stopped posting pictures of all kinds, they would use that against us. you could write the script. "hunters are so ashamed of what they do, they are actively trying to hide it..." just the idea that if "hunter A" doesn't post a picture of a heart or if "hunter B" doesn't post a picture of bloody wound, the antis will have nothing to use against us nuttier than a Payday bar.

From: DanaC
08-Mar-21
"im saying that there is no possible way that we can sterilize what we do enough satisfy those that wish to use whatever they can to paint us in a bad light. "

Maybe not, but we can clean it up enough that *most* people won't understand why the nut-cases are making such a fuss.

08-Mar-21
"Maybe not, but we can clean it up enough that *most* people won't understand why the nut-cases are making such a fuss."

you obviously dont know how the left works. a very good example would be cops shooting unarmed black men. in the last 5 years alone...that has been cleaned up by 63% but youd never know it. the left and the media would have you believe it is far worse than it has ever been. all based on lies, and exaggeration. what makes you think the way hunters are treated is going to be any different? the left only knows one way...scorched earth. you are welcome to buy into the lie that if we just play nice, theyll leave us alone. it never works. you cant reason with extremists.

From: DanaC
08-Mar-21
You're obviously not reading for comprehension. I know _exactly_ 'how the left works.' What I also know is that acting LIKE they do, which is what you're apparently advocating, makes us THE SAME AS THEM in the eyes of the voting public.

"you are welcome to buy into the lie that if we just play nice, theyll leave us alone." I don't expect _the antis_ to leave us alone. I want the MAJORITY to leave us alone.

The antis are living rent-free in your head. Not mine. I can ignore them and focus on the rest of the voters.

From: Kevin Dill
08-Mar-21
Thank you DanaC.

08-Mar-21
i guess well see how that works out for you. when its your ox being gored i hope theres enough people left to save it.

10-Mar-21

Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
dang...shes a bowhunter too. maybe shell join the bowsite some day.

From: wilhille
10-Mar-21
Nothing to add.... Just wanted to get the last word.

From: GF
11-Mar-21
“ in my opinion you are the one really not getting it. it might not be a binary choice for you but it definitely is for the them. to them there are either good people who dont kill animals or there are bad people who do.”

And ‘twould appear that in your mind, the binary is Hunters and Antis with zero population undecided.

Yes or No question, Ricky....

In your estimation, are there ANY voters left out there who have not yet made up their minds to be hard-core Pro or Anti?

From: PushCoArcher
11-Mar-21

PushCoArcher's embedded Photo
PushCoArcher's embedded Photo

12-Mar-21
"In your estimation, are there ANY voters left out there who have not yet made up their minds to be hard-core Pro or Anti?"

yes

From: GF
12-Mar-21
Good. And in that case, why shouldn’t we try to portray ourselves as thoughtful, responsible people in order to gain their support?

12-Mar-21
I had a female architect tell me she did not approve of me hunting earlier this year before I headed out to AZ for a January deer hunt. Easy answer to that. “I’m not looking for anyone’s approval, yours included”. To which she replied “arrogant alpha male” to which I just smiled. She stormed out of my office trailer after that

From: GF
12-Mar-21
She sounds like a real peach.

But wouldn’t we be able to help ourselves more by sharing stories of interactions with REASONABLE people which DID go well?

12-Mar-21
No. Her mind is made up that our food is made in the grocery store. You talk about out of touch.......

12-Mar-21
Most people I know do not hunt, but are ok with those who do. I have not tried sticking a picture of a bloody giraffe heart in their face to see if they would become hunters. Common sense leads the way for me.

From: Bake
12-Mar-21
I've got a story about a member of the non-hunting public that you would like. My mom is a Nurse Practitioner in a small town, and is frequently called to precept for students working towards their masters too. A LOT of them are from Kansas City area. Hard for them to find preceptors in the city so they come down to rural areas.

She had a student a couple years ago that was a really nice guy. I ate lunch with them quite a bit and he was really interested in the hunting stuff. I got to telling him about rhino and elephant hunts, and how they actually help with conservation because of the dollars.

He was very receptive to that, because it makes sense. Older, past prime males targeted, for big dollars, which goes into conservation.

By the time he was done with semester I had him convinced.

I'm confident he would vote for hunters.

From: Rocky D
12-Mar-21
Why are we not talking about organizing state and local bow hunting organizations, B&C, P&Y, and many other hunting groups plus those that make money from those that do instead of remaining to echo the status quo. You beat RTCG up but by sounding like a broken record. Keep pounding away with only the status quo and see where that gets you.

12-Mar-21
Unfortunately in most areas state and local bowhunting is in a serious decline, and so will be the organizations who supported them. This is not good, but no way to turn back the clock.

From: Jaquomo
12-Mar-21
^^^ this.

The state DNR and G&F officials I interviewed for my article on shrinking hunter numbers would be thrilled to maintain status quo for the next 20 years. And they accept that it won't be possible. They could give away free resident licenses and it wouldn't stem the tide.

From: Rocky D
12-Mar-21
State DNRs do not establish the measure of success for me and I would venture to say that it should not for anyone.

From: Kevin Dill
12-Mar-21
The state of Ohio shows decreasing license sales every year x many years. It’s not caused by anti-hunters beating up on us. It’s exactly due to 1) an overall aging demographic of hunters, 2) urbanization, and 3) progressive erosion of hunting as an important lifestyle. In short, we’re not replacing the hunters we lose to attrition. As our numbers shrink, we become less of a political force...social force....and economic force. If we don’t figure out how to reverse this trend, we’re going to eventually look like the Chiricahua Apache tribe. And if our overall society (NOT anti-hunters) view us as barbaric in our methods and attitudes, we will accomplish 2 unintended things. We will make it increasingly difficult to recruit new hunters, and we will make it much easier for the average citizen to make decisions which are unfriendly to hunters and our opportunities.

12-Mar-21
"Good. And in that case, why shouldn’t we try to portray ourselves as thoughtful, responsible people in order to gain their support?"

there are two answers to that question. 1. that is exactly what the subject of this thread has done...not to mention ethical, moral, and lawful. 2. regardless of how we think we portray ourselves, the antis will portray us otherwise.

From: Rocky D
13-Mar-21
“Here is a list of Animal Rights Groups, I am sure it is not all of them. Do you believe their membership numbers are higher than hunter/trapper numbers? American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA) Animal Aid (UK) Animal Defense League Animal Ethics Animal Legal Defense Fund Animal Liberation Leagues Animal Liberation Press Office Animal Outlook (formerly Compassion Over Killing) Animal Protection and Rescue League Animal Welfare Network Nepal AnimaNaturalis (Spain and Latin America) Animals Now Anonymous for the Voiceless Best Friends Animal Society Captive Animals Protection Society Coalition to Abolish the Fur Trade (CAFT) Comunidad Inti Wara Yassi Direct Action Everywhere (DxE) Equanimal Farm Animal Rights Movement (FARM) Friends of Animals (FoA) HAYTAP Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) In Defense of Animals (IDA) International Primate Protection League (IPPL) Italian Horse Protection Association (IHP) L214 Last Chance for Animals (LCA) Libera! Massachusetts Animal Rights Coalition (MARC) Mercy For Animals (MFA) Nonhuman Rights Project People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) People for Animals (PFA) Save Animals From Exploitation (SAFE) Sea Shepherd Conservation Society (SSCS) Western Animal Rights Network (WARN) Uncaged Campaign Rights groups.” PATF

Disorganized we will eventually lose the battle and probably sooner rather than later!

13-Mar-21
"Disorganized we will eventually lose the battle and probably sooner rather than later!"

i agree...infighting, ethics shaming, and virtue signaling within the hunting community will only speed the process up.

13-Mar-21
What will speed the process up is hunters who vote, and voted for the Liberal Dems who oppose hunters, trappers etc. And, there are more hunters than you think who did such a thing. That my friends is the real problem.

13-Mar-21

Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
"What will speed the process up is hunters who vote, and voted for the Liberal Dems who oppose hunters, trappers etc. And, there are more hunters than you think who did such a thing. That my friends is the real problem."

true.

anyone that thinks the antis need gross pictures to convince the uneducated is very naïve. bleeding heart pictures are just as effective as bloody heart pictures.

13-Mar-21
I think PETA, the ASPCA, and others have been very effective at creating anti hunting voters with their ad campaigns showing animals in traps, trophy hunting, etc. The Facebook bloody giraffe heart pictures speak to their audience very, very effectively. Why do hunter's help their cause ?

From: Rocky D
13-Mar-21
MB, I agree but the real problem is that we have been virtually ineffective because we cannot see beyond the bleeding heart.

13-Mar-21
What is the solution?

From: Rocky D
13-Mar-21
MB, I agree but the real problem is that we have been virtually ineffective because we cannot see beyond the bleeding heart.

13-Mar-21
We soon might have to teach where real meat comes from if Bill Gates has his way, petri dishes. That mindset will extend to there is no need to kill for food any longer. Hopefully the cons of that approach will become evident soon, or this development may be an even bigger threat than tasteless pictures?

13-Mar-21
We are already there!

13-Mar-21
...and you guys are going to bicker back and forth about who posts offensive hunting pictures on facebook. they play chess, we play whack a mole...with each other.

From: Jaquomo
13-Mar-21
Ricky, what do you suggest? That we all go like her FB posts as a show of unity?

14-Mar-21
only what I've suggested all along...stop being useful idiots. stop with the virtue signaling and ethics shaming. understand that the only hope we have is to support other hunters and their legal choices, even if they aren't what we would choose to do ourselves. understand that they hate all hunting and no matter how we try sanitize it, they want it stopped. recognize that we will never satisfy anti hunting groups no matter how we try to appease them, and every sacrificial lamb offered is one less that will be there to help the next person or group they target. i dont care if people like her fb post or not. i do care when other hunters demonize her or any other hunter, especially when they havent taken any time whatsoever to determine whether the biased reports about her are accurate. that is way more damaging than anything she has posted on her fb page.

From: Jaquomo
14-Mar-21
Sigh....

From: DanaC
14-Mar-21
" understand that the only hope we have is to support other hunters and their legal choices, even if they aren't what we would choose to do ourselves. "

First, 'legal' is the bare MINIMUM of 'ethical conduct', not the optimum. Second, I don't buy that that is my only hope, or choice. I believe that we have the option to 'clean up our back yard', and I accept it as MY duty. You want to play 'big tent' and never criticize behavior you don't approve, fine. I'll speak my mind and let the chips fall.

As for 'useful idiots', we could argue who that best applies to, those who rubber-stamp questionable behavior, or those who QUESTiON it?

From: Rocky D
14-Mar-21
“ First, 'legal' is the bare MINIMUM of 'ethical conduct', not the optimum”

Legal is the standard; to say otherwise is to provide the anti hunters more ammunition to be used against hunters!

From: GF
14-Mar-21
No, Rocky, Dana is being too generous.

“Legal” is the lowest standard of conduct which society will tolerate before responding by imposing fines or jail time.

It’s 100% legal for people to sleep around with whomever they wish, but I don’t imagine many of us guys would want to see our wife/sister/daughter/mother doing it and boasting about it or putting up explicit images of them in the act on their social media accounts...

But you know, that’s all legal and protected under the first amendment, so I guess we should all rally behind it.....

From: Kevin Dill
14-Mar-21
You can be legal and decidedly not ethical....and vice versa. Legal is an absolute while ethical is a judgment. I’ve always said that ‘legal’ is the lowest rung on the ladder of ethics.

I’ve seen plenty of legal behaviors which I consider openly wrong and abhorrent. Are they (the behaviors) legal and should they be defended for being legal? Probably in most cases. Does that make them (the person) ambassadors?.....ethical?....defensible on their ethics? Often not. Like it or not, there are plenty of hunters who do legal things we disagree vehemently with and get called out for it. That’s how it’s been for a long time, and you can bet it’s not going to change. If you doubt me, just watch what happens when someone gut-shoots a bull elk with a triple-digit bowshot. Of course a coyote killed that way garners kudos and high fives. See the dichotomy?

From: Rocky D
14-Mar-21
GF, sounds like we need to raise the standard! How about starting with bows! We know that lot’s of animals are wounded and lost so the moral thing to do would be to outlaw bows! Doesn’t this sound like the higher moral standard, thusly more ethical?

From: Jaquomo
14-Mar-21
Rocky, that's exactly the argument the SVP of HSUS told me they will use when/if they put bowhunting on the ballot in California (first).

From: DanaC
14-Mar-21
Sorry, the 'reductio ad absurdum' doesn't apply here.

14-Mar-21
"Rocky, that's exactly the argument the SVP of HSUS told me they will use when/if they put bowhunting on the ballot in California (first)."

and based on the legal vs ethical standard some employ here, what leg will bowhunters have to stand on? let's hope the gun only hunters don't decide to throw us poke and hope bowhunters under the bus. you know, superior ethics and all.

sigh...

From: Jaquomo
14-Mar-21
At the public meetings here in CO every five years to set hunting season structure, angry rifle and muzzleloader hunters line up to speak out against bowhunters, demanding that our seasons be shortened or eliminated altogether.

Hunters who didn't hunt bears voted to end baiting, hounds and spring hunting. Same with trapping. We have trad hunters on this site asking for trad-only seasons, who would gladly throw compound hunters under the bus if it benefitted them. Your idealistic view of "everyone sticking together is admirable", but will never happen. Never has, never will. Human nature.

14-Mar-21
...and i have no doubt they all think they have moral and ethical reason for making those arguments...the difference between us is that I try not to actively take part in hastening our suicide. thank you for making my point.

From: Jaquomo
14-Mar-21
" the difference between us is that I try not to actively take part in hastening our suicide."

Ah, but as I asked before, what have you actively done to postpone our inevitable demise? Do you speak at public hearings, call and write emails to congressional representatives, write articles, give seminars, write guest Op-Eds and point-counterpoint essays presenting the positive side of hunting in your local and metro newspapers, anything to bring your message to large swaths of the nonhunting voting general public? Because I do all those things. Please give us some examples of what you have done to preserve hunting opportunities and bring nonhunting voters to our side.

From: Rocky D
14-Mar-21
I wish that we could get past making points! We have a profound problem but we cannot get beyond each other to objectively look for solutions.

14-Mar-21
A commonly used approach regarding a possible ethical dilemma suggests using these three questions as a test;

1. Is it legal?

2. Is it balanced to all parties?

3. How will you feel about your decision later?

The picture and hunt were legal. For some, including me, the picture does not achieve balance because it ignores the reactions of many we no doubt want to keep in our camp. I would not feel good about it immediately or down the road, so for me it does not equate to an ethical act. Obviously others can conclude something different.

From: DanaC
14-Mar-21
"and based on the legal vs ethical standard some employ here, what leg will bowhunters have to stand on? "

The sad and sorry truth is that our ranks have ALWAYS included archers who had no (deleted) business launching arrows at live animals. They're 'legal' but they sure as (deleted) didn't/don't have an _ethical_ leg to stand on.

And no, that is NOT limited to 'traditional' shooters.

BUT, bring up shooting competency tests to qualify for an archery hunting license and listen to the fur fly!

And FWIW, this same discussion has been going on for at least 42 years I've been bow hunting. Plus ?a change...

From: Jaquomo
14-Mar-21
The solution is not that difficult. If every hunter ALWAYS portrays him or herself in an absolutely positive manner to nonhunting voters and if every hunter positively impacts just ten nonhunting voters we will win elections. We may not stem the tide of attrition, but that's a different issue.

The reason why antis can so easily portray us negatively to the general public is because some in our ranks behave badly in public. The stereotype of the half-drunk, sign-shooting, "Happiness is a warm gutpile" t-shirt wearing slob didn't come about by accident.

I didn't just fall off a beet truck. I studied this in college, and afterward when I was a Park Ranger. One senior-level course, called Natural Resources and Public Relations, dealt with this specific challenge on a broader scale.

From: Jaquomo
14-Mar-21
The solution is not that difficult. If every hunter ALWAYS portrays him or herself in an absolutely positive manner to nonhunting voters and if every hunter positively impacts just ten nonhunting voters we will win elections. We may not stem the tide of attrition, but that's a different issue.

The reason why antis can so easily portray us negatively to the general public is because some in our ranks behave badly in public. The stereotype of the half-drunk, sign-shooting, "Happiness is a warm gutpile" t-shirt wearing slob didn't come about by accident.

I didn't just fall off a beet truck. I studied this in college, and afterward when I was a Park Ranger. One senior-level course, called Natural Resources and Public Relations, dealt with this specific challenge on a broader scale.

From: Rocky D
14-Mar-21
“ The solution is not that difficult. If every hunter ALWAYS portrays him or herself in an absolutely positive manner to nonhunting voters and if every hunter positively impacts just ten nonhunting voters we will win elections. We may not stem the tide of attrition, but that's a different issue.”

This is only part of the solution and unfortunately only one cornerstone of a strategy!

From: Kevin Dill
14-Mar-21
Please define that strategy.... a realistic, winnable one.

From: GF
14-Mar-21
The strategy is to prompt a non-hunting voter to recognize that the simple fact that this is an activity in which they choose not to participate does not necessarily indicate that this is abhorrent behavior which needs to be outlawed .

A lot of times when people express an anti-hunting sentiment, I simply ask them if they eat meat. If they say “no” then I can tell them honestly that I respect the fact that their behavior is consistent with their convictions. If they say that they do eat meat, I ask them (in a non-confrontational way) whether they think it is reasonable to be OK with eating meat, but not with hunting. And then I tell them that I personally feel it’s hypocritical OF ME to eat meat, yet be unwilling to take personal responsibility for any of the deaths of the animals that end up on my plate.

Because if I point it out as a matter of addressing MY OWN hypocrisy... they have nowhere to go with that.

And if they ask me “why do [I] want to kill those poor animals“, I tell them that I really DON’T want to kill the animals, but I do want to EAT them, and it just seems more humane to not eat them while they are still alive (not that that that bothers wild canids any). And I mean, shellfish, yeah, I’ve pretty much made peace with that… But mammals, not so much. Besides, it’s really hard to get them to lie there calmly on the plate while you stick a fork in them.

Fact is, a LOT of people just haven’t ever thought about it. And I’m fine with that, and I don’t browbeat them for it. I’ve never wanted to or thought about kissing another man, but that doesn’t mean I think it should be illegal.... And I just choose not to live in a society where it is a given that something should be illegal just because some people are offended by it, even if they have a sincere belief that it’s “immoral” behavior; because we don’t all share the same set of morals because we don’t all share the same set of beliefs, because this country is the Great Melting Pot, and getting along with people who are different from us is what makes this country Great.

14-Mar-21
That’s a great post GF!

And Lou, I agree with you.

From: Rocky D
15-Mar-21
“ The reason why antis can so easily portray us negatively to the general public is because some in our ranks behave badly in public.”

Once again, this is not why we are losing. It is just one symptom of a disorganized group!

From: Rocky D
15-Mar-21
“ The reason why antis can so easily portray us negatively to the general public is because some in our ranks behave badly in public.”

Once again, this is not why we are losing. It is just one symptom of a disorganized group!

15-Mar-21
"If every hunter ALWAYS portrays him or herself in an absolutely positive manner to nonhunting voters and if every hunter positively impacts just ten nonhunting voters we will win elections."

I believe this might work...except for the fact that hunters aren't the only ones vying for the non hunting voters attention. regardless of what hunters do, the anti hunting groups are actively and ruthlessly trying to convince non hunting voters to see it their way. their anti hunting campaign goes on 365 days a year, not just when there is a ballot proposal to fight against...and then it's often too late.

when was the last time you saw a pro hunting ad on tv or in a magazine? especially in a magazine or a tv show that wasn't already only being viewed by hunters? when was the last time you saw a heart wrenching ad showing deer starving to death because of overpopulation. when was the last time you saw an ad campaign with celebrities explaining why they hunt from a wildlife conservation standpoint, not just to sell a product? when was the last time you saw a national or multi national fundraising campaign for a group focused on such things. HSUS, PETA and other such groups do this every single day of the year. unless and until hunters develop effective national pro conservation, pro wildlife, pro habitat campaigns, we will continue to lose at the ballot box. no amount of virtue signaling, ethics shaming or self flagellation will help.

maybe even more important, when was the last time you saw one anti hunting group throw another anti hunting group under the bus? when was the last time you saw HSUS slamming PETA for activities that they feel are over the top? when was the last time you saw one anti hunting group virtue signaling or ethics shaming another anti hunting group for posting a picture, running an ad, or staging a protest that was just a little too offensive to the average voter? when was the last time you saw an anti hunting group adopt a "winning by not losing" strategy? anti hunters bring a .50 caliber machine gun to the fight while hunters bring a butter knife.

From: Jaquomo
15-Mar-21
Colorado Parks and Wildlife flooded the TV and billboards with the "Hug a Hunter" campaign aimed directly at nonhunters. They explained how hunters fund wildlife and conservation, and showed families coming up and hugging hunters at gas stations, in restaurants, etc.. Polls showed they were very effective. The huge majority of Coloradoans approve of hunting, and "hunting" is safe here. Trophy hunting, on the other hand, will be decided on the ballot in 2022 or 2024.

And I take it from your response that you, personally, have never done anything proactive besides bitch at other hunters on internet forums for not supporting YOUR viewpoint.

From: GF
15-Mar-21
Interesting that Ricky seems to believe that a shocking/heart-wrenching TV spot is more influential than daily contact with a thoughtful, reasonable and decent person.

I think if I wanted to help the cause of Hunting by running a shocking ad campaign, I would expose the financial excesses of the people running the Anti groups.... Or expose their ties to outfits like the ALF, which is basically a domestic terrorist organization....

And in the meantime, let’s hope that any unpleasant encounters with suburbanized lions & bears get all of the attention that they deserve. I’m not going to wish any harm on anyone, but it’d be a shame to see the media sweep those incidents under the rug.

From: Jaquomo
15-Mar-21
BTW, Ricky, are you on all the different animal rights forums? How would you know whether or not they have internal squabbles? Have you ever personally spoken with anyone in senior leadership in animal rights organizations, as I have?

The Sierra Club used to be pro-hunting. Then they were virtue-shamed into dropping that position. BHA used to have a link on their home page to their "sister organization", Sierra Club. They were virtue-shamed by their own members into dropping that. RMEF leadership tried to eliminate "the hunt" from the Bugle masthead, and were forced to reverse that decision by members who didn't want RMEF to become the Sierra Club of Elk. It works both ways.

15-Mar-21
"And I take it from your response that you, personally, have never done anything proactive besides bitch at other hunters on internet forums for not supporting YOUR viewpoint."

wrong. but it wouldn't matter anyway. i didnt answer your question because youve shown with the last few that you are only really looking for the answers you want and if you dont get them, you immediately dismiss them with a "sigh" or some other bs. it takes me a little while to catch on to what a persons MO is but i eventually figure it out. i could go on to explain what i do or what ive done but why waste my time. kind of like the title of the thread. seems that the only "thoughts" some people are looking for are the ones that match theirs. how about if i ask you a question now. how is your way working out for us? is the ethics shaming and virtue signaling gaining or losing us ground. reminds me of the old saying...if you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got. at the end of the day, all I've done is attempt to support another hunter for her legal harvest and what shes done for hunting in her area. the only real bitching ive seen is from the virtue signaling and ethics shaming group.

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