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Apologies if I missed this being discussed already. Looks like Wyoming is going for another try at a big price hike. Seems like something similar was being discussed last year about this time. $600 for a pronghorn, $655 for a deer and $1100 for elk, amongst others. Plus a reduction in NonResident percentage. No mention of Special Permit pricing though?
Can’t say I have a huge issue with the numbers. The demand probably won’t be affected much in the near term. But seems like a blue collar fellow probably ought to live in his preferred state going forward to hunt western game with any sort of regularity.
I will send in my e-mails but I also sure hope that powerful outfitter lobby that kept us out of the wilderness steps up here to keep us in the tags.
And the lack of a change to the Special draw just shows that these Senators have no friggen clue about what they're doing.
Yeah, seems like a lazy NR gouge on the surface. I can’t imagine the outfitters would be in favor of a straight cut Justin. But they could probably be bought later down the road on something like a 10% cap where they get 4% or 5% of the tags.
Please pay attention. You also must do something about the quantity of Non-Resident flooding the state to hunt big game. It is out of control.
100% Kaleb, if they were given a 5% "outfitter pool" similar to NM they could definitely go that way.
I suspect they're trying to generate funds due the new president shut down the gas and oil leases. The bison tag is pretty pricey at $6k.
So, how many of you who want them to keep the price low would insist on the buyer of your home paying less than market?
That was my first thought Bowboy. Energy revenue fallout. I don’t think anyone is complaining about prices here LKH, yet. Definitely sucks for young guys and folks with tight budgets. But Wyoming certainly isn’t solely to blame.
Too much gray area in this thing to make much sense of it yet. For me anyway. If limited quotas are cut that means more general elk tags I believe? Can’t imagine residents want more general competition? Pronghorn quotas would get hammered and the price nearly doubled. Who knows how that plays out?
Also State Senator Hicks always submits crazy hunting bills every year during the legislative sessions. I'm sure the WY Outfitters Assocaition will stop it.
What do oil and gas prices have to do with Game and Fish funding? They get zero general fund dollars.
"So, how many of you who want them to keep the price low would insist on the buyer of your home paying less than market?"
I don't think the tag prices are anywhere near what the market would bear. That's because the Wyo G&F isn't a private business trying to maximize a profit like an individual trying to get the best price for the private sale of his home.
I live here and just WOW.
This Bill strikes the reference to W.S. 23?2?101(f); the special pricing chapter.
“And the lack of a change to the Special draw just shows that these Senators have no friggen clue about what they're doing.”
Ike, They are proposing the abolishment of the special draw.
How about we lower the fees to $100 and watch draw odds cut proportionately?
Yep, residents want a hard quota on NR licenses. I would be happy with just a hard quota on all licenses and not rolling any tags left after resident draw into NR. Put those into the leftover draw that all have a chance at, not just the NRs. Biggest push is for more sheep and moose tags for residents, can't say I'm opposed. Prices are lining up with other states so make your choices I guess.
If the number of NR general tags stays the same and demand is reduced, I'm all for it.
I've moved into the "Hooray for me, to hell with you" demographic.
Boy I sure hope this doesn't pass. This will keep alot of people out of Wyoming, myself included.
^^^ Now that's what I'm talkin' about!
Lol. There’s over 100,000 people with single digit elk points going into the draw this year. Take 6% off the limited quota table and units probably jump by a handful of points. All the guys who finally realize they’re in no man’s land for eternity will want to cash out on general tags. Even if general tag numbers get a little bump via the mandated NR percentage, demand will be overwhelming in the near term. That’s my take anyway. Good luck though Lou! :)
Thanks for the clarifications Bob and Jason.
As for tags being sold at less than the open market, this is true. If Wyoming were to list every sheep tag on eBay with a minimum $10,000 bid then everyone would sell. So, WY residents...are you in favor of pricing being at fair market and selling all tags on open market with the biggest bulge in the pocket getting the next tag? No need to limit to NR tags since F&G should not leave money on the table just as you would not selling your home. As an old guy with some idle change in my pocket, I like the idea of several dozen sheep tags hitting the auction market. Heck, list all the goat and moose tags, too, and about 100 each of the deer and elk tags with an extra week to hunt before the peasants from the draw show up to stomp around scaring the animals. I sort of like this.
One related thought, as prices increase and more "casual" hunters get priced out, do you think success rates will continue to increase and therefore lead to even fewer tags available in the future?
Nonresident grizzly bear license; one (1) grizzly bear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6,000.00 to 7,500.00
But there is no griz season.
Success rates for elk on public land aren't increasing. Have remained pretty much flat or even decreasing in some areas for the past 35 years.
Comparing the private market with the government managing a resource that belongs to all of us is a non sequitur.
Should fire services and police services only be available to people who can pay for them? What about bridges? If Russia invaded a poor area, would the military not be obliged to come and defend that part of America because people couldn't afford it?
There are some things, some public works, and National Defense is the best example, where taxes from all of us, no matter how much more or less we contribute, go towards the good of all.
The government is not in the business to make the greatest profit that it can. That's the job of private companies in a capitalistic economy. The government should be doing its job the most efficiently, cheaply, and quickly as it possibly can.
"The government should be doing its job the most efficiently, cheaply, and quickly as it possibly can."
Ike, I agree with "should" as the operative. But unfortunately that's the antithesis of how most government agencies operate. Big part of why I left government work early on, and why my wife retired early from the USDA. What you described is how publicly-traded companies strive to operate.
A side of Beef is starting to look mighty tasty. After all the points plus the tag, not to mention all the other costly variables, I’m thinking 50lbs of filet mignon is a steal.
"If the number of NR general tags stays the same and demand is reduced, I'm all for it."
Using 2019 as an example, there would be 1,995 lq licenses down from 3183, and Gen licenses would increase to 5255 from 4059, for a total nr quota of 7,250.
I did not see a regulation change that deals with the undersold non resident lq licenses that are now being distributed to special gen. I assume they would still issue those to the random draw gen pool as part of their quota balance procedure.
No TreeWalker we want your sheep and moose tags. This is about getting more highly sought after licenses back to residents. WG&F will not lose any money over this .
wytex: I understand getting the big three back to residents and agree with it but considering the price discrepancy how does income not decrease if all the tags are resident only?
So this is how everyone felt when Utah got greedy and allowed NR’s to start applying for ALL species rather than just picking deer or elk. Crushed your odds overnight.
I am so incredibly pissed I didn’t just burn my points this year.
[“And the lack of a change to the Special draw just shows that these Senators have no friggen clue about what they're doing.” Ike, They are proposing the abolishment of the special draw.]
["If the number of NR general tags stays the same and demand is reduced, I'm all for it." Using 2019 as an example, there would be 1,995 lq licenses down from 3183, and Gen licenses would increase to 5255 from 4059, for a total nr quota of 7,250.
I did not see a regulation change that deals with the undersold non resident lq licenses that are now being distributed to special gen. I assume they would still issue those to the random draw gen pool as part of their quota balance procedure.]
As I read the bill/proposal, it does NOT address either of these items. I do not read where this bill supersedes the previous approved bills which call these items out. These points appear to be verbal assumptions at this time. If passed as is, these points will be left to the State Attorney Generals opinion.
I have been involved in the legislative process in my home state. (I am plagiarizing but we call this the "silly season") The legislative process is similar to making sausage. Speaking from my experiences in contributing to drafting a bill, what you start with and how the bill looks (If it passes) might bear little resemblance. You never know who has the legislators ear. If you have not had an opportunity to say your peace, now is the time.
I can understand a residents point of view regarding moose, sheep, goat. These opportunities will never be undersold to residents no matter what the NR% is. (Even And the fiscal impact one way or another is minimal due to the limited number of tags for these critters.
I was hanging onto 14 points for a chance at a cow moose tag but for $2900.00 not so sure now.
The special draw is removed from the Bill by strikeout of W.S. 23?2?101(f).
Z Barebow's Link
I do not know where the numbers come from but they are saying a $ 8m increase in revenue with the changes. Fiscal notes on the bill presented by WG&F state the $ 8M revenue.
Like I said most residents also want tag quotas not rolled into NR draws for deer and pronghorn where they are all taken. Leave those un applied for tags in leftover draw for all.
Thanks WB! Here is section (f) that would be struck/removed if bill passes as is. I also included link to view entire Statute.
(f)?Forty percent (40%) of available nonresident elk licenses, forty percent (40%) of available nonresident deer licenses and forty percent (40%) of available nonresident antelope licenses for any one (1) calendar year shall as established by the commission, be offered to nonresident applicants upon receipt of the fee prescribed by this subsection. ?Seventy-five (75) of the nonresident deer licenses set aside pursuant to this subsection shall be used for a national bow hunt for deer. ?The licenses authorized by this subsection shall be offered by drawing to nonresident applicants prior to the drawing for the remaining nonresident licenses issued. ?The licenses offered under this subsection shall be issued in a manner prescribed by rules and regulations promulgated by the commission. ?Nothing in this subsection shall prohibit any unsuccessful applicant for a nonresident license pursuant to this subsection from submitting an application for any licenses remaining after the drawing during the calendar year in which the application under this subsection was submitted. ?The following fees shall be collected by the department and are in addition to the nonresident license fee for the appropriate big game species imposed under subsection (j) of this section and the application fee imposed under subsection (e) of this section:
If anyone has a question of where Wyoming Outfitters Association lands on this bill.
It is simple. If you do not like the fees, do not apply. I am quite sure there are others who will pay the price.
I personally will continue to apply and go elk hunting even if tags reach $3k plus.... to those that say big deal just don’t apply, that isn’t the point.
It should be concerning how quickly we are pricing youth and low income households out of legally hunting.
Should've done pronghorn a few years ago. The cost of a pronghorn licence gets me a plane ride here in MB to hunt moose. I guess that's not too bad!
There are many species to hunt that are dirt cheap. Elk are obtainable for those who make it a priority. Perhaps not annually, but nobody has to be a serial elk killer.
Trevor, I'm with you 100%.
Signed, wannabe serial elk killer.
You might notice 'ol Sy didn't mention being the guy responsible for them holding our Elk money for 5 months.
Or his support of NR wilderness hunting law.
"Signed, wannabe serial elk killer."
Justin, you sure you're a "serial elk killer" and not a "serial elk chaser"??? ;)
So, after all the dust settles here, does this thing actually stand a chance of passing? Elk and trophy species aside, who in Wyoming other than maybe a few resident hunters wants to see the NR pronghorn quota halved? Certainly not outfitters, landowners and small business people I would assume. I always kind of thought Wyoming antelope hunting was the perfect big game system. Good balance of opportunity and trophy quality. Tons of tags, public land access, pay to play options, an extra buck tag for residents, etc. And the Special option gave some of us who were willing a little leg up on the competition. If it does go through I’ll be hung out to dry with an embarrassing amount of not quite max preference points. Probably donate them to a family or buddy hunt instead of chasing one for myself. That’s assuming I can find anyone to pay $600 a piece to go with me.
I'm a wannabe Scoot, until then I keep chasing :)
Looks like the bill died 4-1.
Guess what the outfitters Association went on record to say they support $1400 regular elk licenses and $2000 special fees . The bill did not actually fail but was kicked the the WTF for tweaking, not twerking.
I do not see a future in which WY is not 90/10. The only hang up last time to that was revenue concerns. This new bill addressed the revenue and as a result has my support. At one point yes I was a NR, but made the choice to leave CO for better opportunities.
On some level this will come through.
The funny part is everyone is rallying with the Outfitter Association. The same people who forces you out of wilderness is not using to fight the split.
Bill didn't even make it out of the committee. 4-1 against.... Can we get back to non-res and wilderness now?
They should have change to 90/10 when they started Elk/Deer/Antelope points. 20 years of Sheep/Moose points and the last few years of high dollar points will make this awful tough to change.
Did anyone on that committee even understand preference point systems? I think the changes will come and should come but how they are implemented should also be more acceptable to those hauling the load (non-res). Implementing fee increases and resident allocations could be phased in over a 4-6 yr period. Give people invested in the system an opportunity to adjust their plans while keeping Wyoming a good hunting destination for non-residents.
They mentioned during the meeting resident prices have not had a significant increase since 2008. NR prices have gone up 100% since 2013 and this bill was adding another ~100% for next year.
Shrewski many residents support license fee increases but reasonable increases over time.
Well I guess I’ll eventually have no choice but to establish a Wyoming residency if I want to keep hunting elk.
On Thursday, March 11, 2021, 12:52:13 PM EST, Senator - Schuler, Wendy wrote:
Thanks for your email. This bill did not pass out of committee. The issues that were brought up will be moved to the Wildlife Task Force and hopefully they will find solutions that will be acceptable for both sides. Thanks for your input.
Wendy Davis Schuler
Wyoming State Legislature
Don, I received the exact same e-mail, EXACT same. I guess Wendy drew the short straw:)
Are "both sides" that Senator Schuler refers to the residents and WOGA or residents and non-residents? Non-residents have no position on the Task Force.
When I began applying 20+ years ago the NR Draw System gave NR hunters a legitimate chance to build points and eventually draw tags (albeit for more money and less chance than a resident, even back then) but it has devolved into a cruel joke. NR licenses and fees have already increased over 100% just since 2013 + an additional $150 for each Sheep, Moose of Goat Preference Point, all while R fees have remained somewhat stable. With many factors impacting harvest targets and expanding applicant pools, NR are a politically convenient target. In the long-run, will diminishing NR access have any lasting positive impact on addressing the real issues facing hunting and wildlife in western states? Absolutely not. However, it does deeply divide the hunting community, and while local headlines about NR tag reductions might make folks feel good for the moment, it will certainly have a negative effect on revenues and support from the broader hunting community. Wyoming is very vulnerable as huge chunk of it’s revenue is generated from energy, ranching and tourism. The recent EO about restricting energy leases on Federal land was a huge blow to their economy and just the first salvo of the struggle ahead. This really isn’t the time for WY to be alienating anyone - they’re going to need all of help, friends and support they can get.
Does anyone know what where to find the price of a WY elk tag in 1995. I was just doing some calculating and an $1100 tag now is comparable to a $635 tag in 1995.
Havent done the math for WY, but CO's NR tag cost has pretty much tracked inflation since the early 60s.
It was less than $635, because it got raised to the six-hundred-and-change price about 10 years ago.
:::::”additional $150 for each Sheep, Moose of Goat Preference Point, :::::::”
There never has been WY NR Mt goat point charge because NR mt goat points don't exist.
This year one can get in the random draw without paying the $150 point fee for moose and sheep . For anyone with less than 18 points its pure donation to buy more points.
I'm sure this isn't the end of 90/10. It's sad that there is no nonres input in the "task force". The only voice nonres have are outfitters on the task force. According to the website there is public input. If you are concerned about nonres getting stripped of 1/2 of their tags plus paying a chunk more for tags I would voice your opinion!
I drew 4 non resident Area 7 elk tags in the 90s 1990-$250, 1992-$350, 1996-$350, and 1997-$400, I made $17 an hour back then with a pension and family health insurance I can't even find a job anymore because of my age, (61) let alone one that pays that, my wife is a nurse and pays the bills, health insurance through her employer cost us $8000 a year I was able to hunt Wyoming moose in 2010 in area 38 but i'm pretty much priced out of hunting these days.
$400 in 1997 is worth $655 today. WY NR elk tag this year is $707, but you also get a fishing license, which is worth $102.
Of course, this doesn't factor in the cost of points, which definitely add up now that it takes 3 to draw general.
All my tags in the 90s were Elk and fishing.
Huntcell is correct that there are no preference point fees for goats, my bad - too quick on the keyboard and as I already have a Mountain Goat don’t apply for that species (Sheep and Moose are $150 each). But applying for non-resident tags is already a very expensive undertaking. I added it up and I currently have to pay over $1,600 in non-refundable fees just to apply and gain points for everything I want (over $400 in Wyoming alone).
I should have saved that money as I could just go out and by a quality guided elk and moose hunt.
Applied for multiple species in the majority of Western States for over 20 years and have yet to draw any prime unit or prime species tag anywhere. The only way I’ve ever been able to hunt Wyoming is in the secondary draw (leftover tags/after draw) in units with mostly private property. Did my homework and hired outfitters with access to good property. I was able to have a few wonderful bowhunts and took a couple of great bucks - but none of it through the NR draw or point system. So, how my use of non-resident quota has in any way impacted Wyoming residents is beyond me. Also read many of the reports on this bill and listened to the testimony and it is very clear from the official data that shifting NR quota will not significantly increase the odds of R drawing these tags, but the planned cuts in quota will all but make the points I’ve accumulated over 20+ years worthless.
This entire draw/point system was created by Wyoming (not the NRs) and we NRs were enticed to participate by the promise that building preference points would eventually lead to that prized tag. But alas, I along with many others were naive enough to believe that Wyoming would actually honor that agreement when it was only really just a ruse/shell game to get NR funding.
The ironic part is if Wyoming just made Sheep and Moose “Once in a Lifetime” tags the problem would be solved and there would be no reason to come after NR quota.
Just be happy you don't have to pay in Canadian Pesos. Might burn the antelope points this year, but would really suck to draw and we have a covid variant panicking the borders and can't get there or come back.
jeffkim's Area 7 tags from the 90's would take at least 10 preference points today for a Type 1
Jeffkim, not to minimize your gripe, but what you mean is that your life circumstances have changed so that premier western big game hunts are no longer a priority, given your finances.
But you certainly aren't being "priced out of hunting". Life is about choices.
Those who say that elk tags have been increasing for a non-resident at the same rate as inflation probably don't understand the difference between addition and multiplication.
The typical inflation rate for the past decade prices should double roughly every 30 years show me a non-resident elk tag in the Rocky Mountains that follows that? You can even ignore points