Biden Is The Best! No Taxes Baby…
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
'Ike' (Phone) 03-May-21
Ermine 04-May-21
Snuffer 04-May-21
JL 04-May-21
StickFlicker 04-May-21
Dale06 04-May-21
Brotsky 04-May-21
Woods Walker 04-May-21
elknailer 04-May-21
Ken Taylor 04-May-21
snag 04-May-21
snag 04-May-21
newfi1946moose 04-May-21
DanaC 04-May-21
12yards 04-May-21
tkjwonta 04-May-21
DonVathome 04-May-21
KY EyeBow 04-May-21
lamb 04-May-21
JayG@work 04-May-21
EMB 04-May-21
krieger 04-May-21
Bake 04-May-21
WYOelker 04-May-21
Brotsky 04-May-21
Jackaroo 04-May-21
Bake 04-May-21
Glunt@work 04-May-21
midwest 04-May-21
greg simon 04-May-21
StickFlicker 04-May-21
BigOzzie 04-May-21
HDE 04-May-21
Missouribreaks 04-May-21
Z Barebow 04-May-21
Jethro 04-May-21
Buffalo1 04-May-21
Surfbow 05-May-21
DanaC 05-May-21
Supernaut 05-May-21
SteveB 05-May-21
DanaC 05-May-21
newfi1946moose 05-May-21
Owl 05-May-21
DanaC 05-May-21
'Ike' (Phone) 05-May-21
Jackaroo 05-May-21
DanaC 06-May-21
Missouribreaks 06-May-21
Cowdoc 06-May-21
DanaC 06-May-21
Norseman 06-May-21
Jackaroo 06-May-21
DanaC 06-May-21
Jackaroo 06-May-21
BC 06-May-21
Jaquomo 06-May-21
Jackaroo 06-May-21
Jackaroo 06-May-21
Jaquomo 06-May-21
Jaquomo 06-May-21
Norseman 06-May-21
DanaC 06-May-21
Missouribreaks 06-May-21
Norseman 06-May-21
Jackaroo 06-May-21
DanaC 06-May-21
Jaquomo 06-May-21
DanaC 06-May-21
keepemsharp 06-May-21
Jaquomo 06-May-21
Jackaroo 06-May-21
Jaquomo 06-May-21
Earltex 06-May-21
Rocky D 06-May-21
Jaquomo 06-May-21
KSflatlander 07-May-21
Jackaroo 07-May-21
Glunt@work 07-May-21
Rocky D 07-May-21
Rocky D 07-May-21
KSflatlander 07-May-21
12yards 07-May-21
orionsbrother 07-May-21
Jaquomo 07-May-21
WV Mountaineer 07-May-21
DanaC 07-May-21
orionsbrother 07-May-21
Jackaroo 07-May-21
Jackaroo 07-May-21
Rocky D 07-May-21
KSflatlander 07-May-21
Norseman 07-May-21
RK 07-May-21
snag 07-May-21
Woods Walker 08-May-21
Owl 08-May-21
Treeline 08-May-21
70lbdraw 08-May-21
Jackaroo 08-May-21
Lawdy 09-May-21
Jackaroo 09-May-21
Woods Walker 09-May-21
Jackaroo 09-May-21
KSflatlander 09-May-21
Jackaroo 09-May-21
70lbdraw 09-May-21
KSflatlander 09-May-21
Matt 09-May-21
Glunt@work 09-May-21
Rocky D 09-May-21
bowhunt 09-May-21
bowhunt 09-May-21
WV Mountaineer 09-May-21
Matt 09-May-21
Matt 09-May-21
WV Mountaineer 09-May-21
RK 09-May-21
WV Mountaineer 09-May-21
xtroutx 09-May-21
itshot 09-May-21
RK 09-May-21
bowhunt 09-May-21
bowhunt 10-May-21
Jackaroo 10-May-21
bigswivle 10-May-21
Stix 10-May-21
Surfbow 10-May-21
WV Mountaineer 10-May-21
Matt 10-May-21
WV Mountaineer 10-May-21
soccern23ny 10-May-21
bowhunt 10-May-21
soccern23ny 10-May-21
bowhunt 10-May-21
soccern23ny 10-May-21
Jackaroo 10-May-21
bowhunt 10-May-21
Bowbender 10-May-21
RK 10-May-21
bowhunt 11-May-21
Surfbow 11-May-21
WV Mountaineer 11-May-21
Ok...Russ 11-May-21
BC 11-May-21
greg simon 11-May-21
03-May-21

'Ike' (Phone)'s Link
I love this guy…No taxes as long as you don’t make 400K! I’m golden and hunting all year long…Lol

From: Ermine
04-May-21
Lol

From: Snuffer
04-May-21
He's not even cognizant. What an embarrassment!

From: JL
04-May-21
I heard on the radio this past week a good question about taxes.....when will the people using my fair share begin to pay their fair share?

From: StickFlicker
04-May-21

StickFlicker's embedded Photo
StickFlicker's embedded Photo
Yeah! The Top 1% make 20% of the total income but pay 40% of the total taxes. Let's make it "fairer" by making them pay even more!! 50% of the taxpayers pay 97% of all the taxes. Let's make it even fairer by making a smaller percentage of the taxpayers pay even more of the total taxes! That will show them for working hard and being successful.

From: Dale06
04-May-21
Good points stick flicker. Biden is an embarrassment to the USA.

From: Brotsky
04-May-21
It’s only a matter of time really. This model doesn’t work. You can’t have the takers outnumber the makers in a democratic republic and have it be viable long term. Eventually the tables tip to a point where it is unsustainable.

From: Woods Walker
04-May-21
What do you expect from an illegitimately elected President?

And as embarrassing as he is, what's even more embarrassing are the sheeple that laid right down an accepted it. We're being herded into the kill pen and we just line up and follow. Sad.

From: elknailer
04-May-21
Well said Brotsky!

From: Ken Taylor
04-May-21
I'm a Canadian, but I happened to see Biden on t.v. the other day and I could have sworn I saw thin strings raising his arms.

From: snag
04-May-21

snag's embedded Photo
Hmmm
snag's embedded Photo
Hmmm
He’s a puppet.

From: snag
04-May-21

snag's embedded Photo
snag's embedded Photo

04-May-21
November 2022 will hopefully put an end to the most politically stupid era in American history! GOP only needs to flip a few seats and President Harris's reign ends. A core Heartland movement has already started with the GOP run-off win in TX.

04-May-21
Agree Brodsky, will add though the growing perception of wealth and income inequality in America is what is fundamentally behind much of the social unrest we observe today IMO. The current policy options being considered will only placate the pitchforks in the short run.

We should never penalize work effort with income taxes, would love to see a consumption or VAT but those have challenges as well.

We need to focus on increasing incomes for all instead of fighting over taxes, and a complete revamp of our education system is one of the first places we should start IMO.

From: DanaC
04-May-21
The problem with 'consumption' or 'sales' taxes is that they hit the lower income folks harder than the uppermost. At the very least there should be NO taxes on food, clothing, shelter, heat.

From: 12yards
04-May-21
DanaC, right on. Along with higher fuel prices, electricity prices, significantly higher inflation (all things), higher food prices. Tack on you need an EV in the near future. What could be better for the poor, lower income folks. UBI, here we come. Which of course will by the Dems more votes.

04-May-21
Agreed to a point Dana and 12 yards, but the mentality has to change IMHO. All citizens receive benefits such as a secure nation provided by an outstanding military, so all citizens have to be expected to pay something, everyone, no free riders.

I can go with reduced taxes on necessities, but not zero. On everything else you decide how much in taxes you want to pay based on whether you buy or not. No cap gains or inheritance taxes, don’t penalize savings which ensures enough capital for growth. Privatize SS and have everyone control their own funds with help from planners and watch Americans embrace capitalism as their financial status improves. This is how you kill progressive nonsense.

From: tkjwonta
04-May-21
Great points everyone. Relatedly, I don't think most people realize how mobile wealth is. If you continue to punish the job/wealth creators they are liable to go elsewhere or just "take their ball and go home." Which I guess could be viewed as a positive for those whose ultimate goal is more gov't dependence.

From: DonVathome
04-May-21
I heard once that 40% of voters do not pay any taxes. Trying to get ANYONE into office that would change this is difficult at best...........................

When I started college I was clueless and it seemed to make sense to tax the rich. It did not take long to realize for to many reasons to list this does not work and hurts the lower class more.

What really stinks is everyone who supports it truly does not understand it hurts them.

From: KY EyeBow
04-May-21
Did you all see where recent "polling" shows that most Americans want the Biden Administration to spend MORE money!?!?!? I'm sure it was a CNN or MSNBC generated poll. If you don't pay anything into the system, why wouldn't you want more out of it? The problem is, many of these people do pay some form of tax, but they aren't astute enough to know it.................

From: lamb
04-May-21
Dana you already have that in massachusetts. mass. leading the country with illegals moving there. costing the mass. taxpayer over a billion dollars a year in social services. keep voting demo-rat. no wonder we can't pay off the mass. pike

From: JayG@work
04-May-21
If you look at what happened when the second to worst President this nation has ever had (Obozo).... Biden is actually proving to be worse than him.... Anyhow, remember when that incompetent Oboxo said, "those jobs are gone and never coming back and the American people need to accept that ". Then Trump lowered the tax rate on businesses, and lo and behold, the jobs came back... If the government, state or federal raise taxes, businesses WILL leave. They have that mobility. Just look at what happened to NY. Wall Street is moving to FL and the state is going to lose a Congressional seat because the citizens are leaving because of the stupidly high tax rate as well as onerous overregulation.

04-May-21
Jay,

Congress lowered the tax rate, Trump signed it.

From: EMB
04-May-21
In a college economics class a long long time ago we learned that if the effective tax rate exceeds 55% of income, the remaining disposable income is insufficient to sustain the economy. Some states like New York and California have exceeded that amount. No wonder to me why folks are leaving those states. They just need to leave the stupid politics that got them there behind. But, I'm with Ike on this one-hunting all year long.

04-May-21
Eyebrow,

I saw those polls, and even the FOX poll said the same. Scary!

That’s why I really liked Reagan as president. He used his positive charm and humor to help educate the masses against government control. And he had an influence for years after with his words while president. And that is what it will take to turn this around, a “re-education” of Americans to turn them back to market driven solutions and rejecting government.

What a missed opportunity for the last administration. Instead of the focus being on him and how unfair everyone was ( and he was right) and name calling everyone who disagreed with him which over-shadowed all of the good being done, conservatives lost the opportunity to explain why our solutions are better. And like Reagan, his words will have a far reaching impact, but in this case in a negative way by making it more difficult to get people to even listen to what we have to offer because of how turned off they are. It felt good to stick your finger in their eye, but in the long run it makes our goals that much more difficult to obtain.

From: krieger
04-May-21
Everyone needs to be paying taxes, IMO. I don't care how poor you are, pay your fair share, it's a PATRIOTIC DUTY, just as the suck-at- the gov't-teet-for-47 years, Biden says...

If i have to pay more taxes, I should get twice the preference points on all the draws. Fair is fair.

From: Bake
04-May-21
As someone who is not only self-employed, but has zero deductions, I'd like to see a flat tax rate across the board. Seems fair to me that EVERYONE pay the same tax rate.

From: WYOelker
04-May-21
The entire system is a mess right now. Hyperinflation is heading our way. The plan by the left sounds all great to the uneducated fools. But as we all know the wealthy have mobility and they will simply move the money out of reach. Then suddenly we will all be stuck with the debt and no one else to pay...

From: Brotsky
04-May-21
Your lips to God's ears Bake. Flat tax, no deductions, no loopholes, no child tax credits, etc. The tax code shouldn't be thicker than the constitution.

From: Jackaroo
04-May-21
If you are self employed and have zero deductions you need an accountant.

There will never be a flat tax. Government will never allow less government.

From: Bake
04-May-21
I do have one accountant, and one tax attorney. And they have my best interests at heart, I truly believe. I believe that because one is my father and business partner, and the other is my father-in-law :)

I know it will never happen. But how is that idea not FAIR to everyone? I understand life isn't fair. And I don't live in fairytale land.

From: Glunt@work
04-May-21
Paying my "fair" share is fine. It's the spending part that's broken.

From: midwest
04-May-21
Consumption tax is the way to go, IMO. Even criminals will pay taxes then, no reason to offshore money, and get rid of the frickin IRS.

Lower income folks can receive a monthly prebate to cover purchases up to the poverty level.

See "The Fair Tax Plan".

From: greg simon
04-May-21
Hey Bake, buy a farm. Then you will have tons of tax deductions...of course you won't have any money either...???

From: StickFlicker
04-May-21

StickFlicker's Link
"And I don't live in fairytale land."

Bake, the cancel culture woke people won't even let you live in a fairytale land if you wanted to. They want the new Snow White ride at Disneyland shut down because at the end the prince kisses his true love Snow White to wake her up, but the left said that since she was asleep she couldn't have given her consent for the kiss!

From: BigOzzie
04-May-21
All the forthcoming free stuff, could benefit me. or would it?

I am retiring this year and will go back to work part time to cover 2 items in the family budget

1. A "parent loan" from my sons education 2. Health care

If those two items make it on the free for everyone list I would benefit, until, the bill comes due to pay for it and taxes rise enough that I cannot afford to live on my fixed retirement income. Then I will be back to part time work again to pay the new taxes. I don't understand how I could be in a no tax income (less than 400,000) then pay sales (consumption taxes) Property taxes, income taxes, etc etc.

I just am not smart enough to put all this together.

oz

From: HDE
04-May-21
Flat tax is the answer, and not and idiotic amount either. Somewhere between 10 and 15 percent would suffice. Abolish the IRS and replace it with a much smaller book-keeping system. If the federal gov't can't make it on 15%, then the fed gov't needs an overhaul. Increasing everyone's income will not do it as it will only raise the price point on everything to cover the higher wages which will result in a net zero gain. The real change is to keep wages where they are and reduce taxes giving more disposable income to spend.

The other fix to this whole mess is to implement term limits, and make it retroactive. No more than two terms for a senator and 4 terms for a representative with not more than 12 years total, single or combined.

04-May-21
I would rather make the higher income, and pay the taxes.

From: Z Barebow
04-May-21

Z Barebow's Link
BigOzzie

The basic premise behind flat tax is to replace the current "bracketed" income tax structure.

A consumption tax (Value Added Tax-VAT) is levied at each stage in supply chain (vs a sales tax which is only levied at the consumer level) See link for detailed explanation.

The problem I see with politicians who promote these solutions is they will NOT replace the existing tax structures. (That is likely in the fine print) They view them as methods to raise additional revenue and augment existing income tax or sales taxes. (IMO)

The fundamental flaw with current systems is the majority of voters whom vote for the political leadership do NOT have skin in the game. (IE Pay income tax). There is a major disconnect between those who fund a significant portion of this countries revenue (the minority) and those who do not contribute significantly to the revenue stream. Far too many people think as long as someone else pays for every proposal presented, it is a good idea. (Think evil/rich/successful) These folks cannot connect the dots. They don't realize successful people are not going to shoulder additional costs. If additional costs cannot be mitigated, the costs are passed on to consumer. (Which includes the "majority" who thought those proposals were "good ideas" because they would not be paying for them) Think student loan forgiveness, Medicare for All, Green New Deal, etc.

From: Jethro
04-May-21

From: Buffalo1
04-May-21
"In this present crisis, government is not a solution to our problem, government IS the problem. It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." President Ronald Reagan

From: Surfbow
05-May-21
Democrats: "Trump is the WORST"

Uncle Joe: "Hold my beer"

From: DanaC
05-May-21
Independents: "Trump is the WORST" 'Old school' conservatives: "Trump is the WORST" 'Moderates': "Trump is the WORST" Libertarians: "Trump is the WORST" Greens: "Trump is the WORST" Nazis: "HEIL TRUMP!"

From: Supernaut
05-May-21
My best friend, he's been gone ten years now, never paid taxes. He rode in a 1% motorcycle club his entire adult life and just didn't care. I asked him once about 20 years ago if he was worried about getting caught and he replied, "F**k em', they can put me in prison. I've been there before and could use a vacation". I was always envious of him at tax time but I had no desire to go to prison then or now!

From: SteveB
05-May-21
Ask anyone who voted for Biden and they still love him. Don’t think 2022 will be a cakewalk to take Congress back either unless there is significant voter reform. Had a friend tell me the other day (republican) that he voted for Biden because we needed a “clean break” away from Trumps ignorant rhetoric. If Trump runs again, I for one don’t think he can win. He’s lost too many middle grounders. We need a new conservative poster boy and not Pence either.

From: DanaC
05-May-21
Steve, the GOP has a fair chance of taking the House, because of retirements and also changes in representation due to the 2020 census. Just for instance, New York state loses one rep.

Also, there will be redistricting in several 'red' states, and I'm betting the state GOP's can gerrymander with the best.

05-May-21
If Trump runs, it would not be until 2024. Agree w/DanaC. As to taxes, we below $60,000 (two incomes); we below $40,000 (2 incomes); may well take a nasty hit in the 'tax' as it looks to me that we are seriously headed for the nasty inflation of the Jimmy Cartier era....those of you who are old enough to recall that crap remember no mortages/car loans unless 15-21% interest rates. Just in the last 4 months have had to add $700 to cover increased lodging/fuel/food costs over the last time mom and I made the trip back to the northern part of the Adirondacks. Wish it were for our canceled QC bear trip.

From: Owl
05-May-21
The top 10% pay ALL of the net income taxes in this country.

From: DanaC
05-May-21
Owl, the top 1/10th of the top 1/10th of 1% are better at evading taxes and sheltering their income than you can imagine.

05-May-21
^^^ This

From: Jackaroo
05-May-21
Sounds like envy. The top 1/10 of the top 1/10th of the 1% are still in the top 10% and pay all of the net taxes. List how some of these shelters and evasion tactics work. You are just spewing opinions that are assigned to you as usual because you don’t have the net worth or the knowledge first hand.

06-May-21
flat tax is the way to go. consumption tax is an economy killer because it puts a wet blanket on on all consumer spending.

From: DanaC
06-May-21
Jackaroo, do you remember the big whoop-de-doo about the 'Panama Papers' - and did you happen to notice how quickly the story got squashed?

Do you even know what 'wealth managers' do?

I'm not 'jealous' of these people's money, I have my own. I do detest how they get the tax laws written for their own benefit.

06-May-21
Everyone has equal opportunity to take advantage of every tax law. To think otherwise is stupid.

From: Cowdoc
06-May-21
To preface this, I consider myself to be a conservative libertarian. I owned my own business and have never had a boss. But here is my problem. Do CEOs and top executives deserve incomes 1000-2000x their average employee? Are they adding that much value to a company? And what about hedge fund managers who are basically parasitical and add nothing to society. Would it be better that a companies wealth was more evenly distributed among its employees?

If that were the case, the top 1% would be paying less of the total taxes and the difference would be made up by the improved salaries of employees. Also there would be fewer "oligarchs" writing legislation beneficial to solely to them. Every politician knows there is a six figure position waiting for them when they end their service. Do you think that effects their thinking during their tenure in office?

Flame away.

From: DanaC
06-May-21
Good points. Henry Ford didn't take a 1000x salary, but his employees could afford a car, and _everybody_ did ok. Now it's 'all for me, and screw thee.'

From: Norseman
06-May-21
“Do CEOs and top executives deserve incomes 1000-2000x their average employee?”

Yes, it’s competitive market driven

“Are they adding that much value to a company? “

Apparently Yes. Ask the Board(s) that hire them.

Their salaries are a drop in the bucket, compared to overall financial operating structure of a company.

From: Jackaroo
06-May-21
Danac , it wasn’t squashed it was a nothing story because the vast majority of what was uncovered was perfectly legal. like I thought, you don’t have any idea of what these supposed shelters and avoidance tactics are. What the majority of wealth managers do is protect assets from transfer taxes upon death. You heard the media trumpet Buffets lie that his secretary pays a higher tax rate than he does and you believed it didn’t you? You are just a cheerleader yelling for something you don’t understand because your team says you should. Targeting Income taxes is a ruse to distract the stupid. Income taxes entrench the wealthy . The secret to wealth is holding assets , Unrealized gains is where all the money is tied up. No one would be worth a $100 billion if they sold all their assets.

From: DanaC
06-May-21
"the vast majority of what was uncovered was perfectly legal. "

It was *legal* because the tax-evading sob's WRITE THE RULES. I don't confuse 'legal' with 'right'.

From: Jackaroo
06-May-21
The majority were foreign. Legal has zero to do with right or wrong its a process not a virtue.

From: BC
06-May-21
A red flag goes up when people start saying how much someone "deserves" to make. If someone invests their money, talent and time and becomes financially successful as a result, good for them. This is America.

06-May-21
"Do CEOs and top executives deserve incomes 1000-2000x their average employee? Are they adding that much value to a company?"

first of all, the average ceo salary in the united states is about 800 grand. so unless the average employee is only making 400 bucks a year, that whole claim is total bs. if the average employee makes 30 grand, 2000 times that would be 60 million bucks. not many ceos make anywhere close to that and the ones that do are probably worth it. never let facts get in the way of a good story.

From: Jaquomo
06-May-21
My (liberal) mother-in-law complained that doctors make too much money. I asked how much they "should" makes and got crickets. Amazing how ignorant many people are about basic economics in a free market society.

When I retired early and had to go on Obamacare, I managed my AGI to be just above poverty/Medicaid level. I got a big subsidy that made insurance nearly free, even though my actual "income" was close to $100K. I wasn't cheating; I just played by the Dems rules. Businessmen will always be smarter and one step ahead of politicians.

From: Jackaroo
06-May-21
Cowdoc, you do know that conservative or right libertarians support free market capitalism and capital property rights don’t you. Your screed is just the opposite and supports the position of a left libertarian.

From: Jackaroo
06-May-21
Jaq, most people have no clue that you can have $100 million in assets and get free healthcare in the US.

From: Jaquomo
06-May-21
Jackaroo, so true. When I explained my formula to others who were paying full price for Obamacare, some said, "That's so wrong". Maybe so, but I didn't make the rules.

06-May-21
Lou,

Pretty ironic to hear you take advantage of rules to reduce your medical costs and complain about rules that limit your ebike access and trees cut to block your access to federal land from your plush cabin. Dana is right, it’s all about me any more and forget the other guy.

If an athlete, CEO, etc. is worth the money they are paid, so be it. Full transparency though, many of these boards are populated by close associates of each other who do in fact take care of themselves. Regulations giving shareholders more say in salaries are good, as is the elimination of golden parachutes which are not offered to average workers. If CEOsare worth millions on the upside, then they receive zilch as everyone else on the downside.

From: Jaquomo
06-May-21
Ironic? Haha, hardly! There is not one person in this country who agrees with every federal law or rule. I work and vote to change the ones I don't like, and take advantage of ones that benefit me and my family. That's how the system works.

As far as the tree cutting to block our access, this wasn't the result of a "rule" or "law". It was a personal vendetta by a USFS bureaucrat who has a problem with our community and our historical legal access to National Forest. Her tree cutting rampage actually violated her own USFS rules. If I did that, I'd be fined to high heaven.

06-May-21
the only people i know of whos income isnt tied to performance...including ceos... are teachers.

06-May-21
Ricky, you are right and why I support pay for performance in every industry and even provided a formula with multiple variables to measure teacher performance. Best way to revamp education, which is sorely needed, is to eliminate tenure and the union (of which I am not a member) and institute pay for performance.

Sorry Lou, that doesn't cut it for me. Conservatives, of which I am one, are constantly reminding us of living to a higher standard, that we are our brothers' keepers etc. And as Dana pointed out, today we have conservatives that are 100% out for themselves and respond to any challenges to their self serving behavior with "the rules are written that way". As someone said above, everyone can take advantage of the tax code. BS! Most don't have the monetary or political clout to influence legislators to have a tax code with thousands of pages that much of is directed to help specific individuals or causes. To believe otherwise is either ignorance, stupidity or a lack of integrity.

Doing what is right usually takes more than complying with the law. Ethics demands at least three questions, Is it Legal? Is it Balanced? How will it make me feel down the road? Too many of us are stopping with is it legal, and that is why so much of our behaviors are at odds with each other. And we even brag about when we can take advantage of something just because it is legal even though our own words betray we know it is not right.

Why not work on making the tax code balanced?

From: Norseman
06-May-21
Average guys have every right to golden parachutes in their contract of terms. Just like salary, It’s all in the contract negotiations. Everyone has the same right to be elite!

But as the great Judge Smails once said...”The world needs ditch diggers too”

From: DanaC
06-May-21
Norseman, how much money do the big corporations spend every year to dissuade workers from unionizing? Never seen a corporation that would negotiate fairly with just one person on the floor.

06-May-21
My father was a third generation union rat. Fortunately he instilled in me to become educated and get a job where I would not be held back by the unions. So I did.

From: Norseman
06-May-21
What is fair?

Whatever they agree on for their wage is what fair is. No one is holding a gun to their head to sign the contract or work at any corporation.

From: Jackaroo
06-May-21
These two statements do not foot Habitat,

“Regulations giving shareholders more say in salaries are good, as is the elimination of golden parachutes which are not offered to average workers.”

“Conservatives, of which I am one”

Dana needs to get out more “Never seen a corporation that would negotiate fairly with just one person on the floor.” He doesn’t understand how modern HR departments work. Any employee with equal tenure, ability or training is treated equally to avoid discrimination lawsuits. The employees are treated by class and not negotiated with separately in regards to wages and benefits which are one and the same. Anyone not treated the same is different in one of the elements, tenure or ability or training. It’s why the lie that women are paid less than men is a lie.

From: DanaC
06-May-21
Jacko, I spent 40 plus years working for corporations large and small. I got out, all the way out.

From: Jaquomo
06-May-21
I absolutely believe what I did to lower my insurance premiums was "right" and was ethical. I didn't cheat. I simply reported my honest taxable income on the Obamacare application, and the premium prices were shown for each different plan. I picked one that resulted in a very low premium.

Was it legal? Yes. Was it ethical? Yes, because it was in full compliance with the intent of the law, which was to adjust rates based strictly upon AGI. No one was harmed or compromised by my decision. I didn't write the law, and those I voted for, voted against it. Was it "balanced"? Not sure what you mean by that, but considering how much I paid in income taxes as a high earner for the last 25 years of my career, compared to many others I know who are sucking off the government tit because they can, it made me feel REALLY good to get a tiny added return on my investment.

So as far as I'm concerned, it helped balance out a teeny bit of inequity in our system, where those who make poor choices in life benefit disproportionately from the hard work and risks taken by those who made good choices and are punished for it. The top 50% pay 97% of total federal income tax (according to the Tax Foundation) and the bottom 50% benefit. (Don't bring hedge fund managers into it, because they are a microscopic proportion of the overall population. And what they do is wrong if they deliberately manipulate stock prices)

Of course the tax code needs to be balanced. But as long as "tax the rich" is a mantra it will never happen. And the "tax corporations" joke. Low information voters can't grasp how that means "raise taxes on everyone". What I would love to see is wealthy liberals write a check to the IRS each year beyond what they owe after all the loopholes, since they presumably want higher taxes for everyone. But that will never happen.

From: DanaC
06-May-21
"What I would love to see is wealthy liberals write a check to the IRS each year beyond what they owe after all the loopholes, since they presumably want higher taxes for everyone. "

When it comes to dodging taxes, 'liberal' and 'conservative' are pretty meaningless. Or D & R, red and blue. It's the same when it comes to taking campaign donations from the finance industry and defense contractors. They're all hogs at the money trough. ALL.

From: keepemsharp
06-May-21
The gov CANNOT get any program right, just cannot be done from DC. We recently recieved a direct deposit for $2800, don't have any idea how they got our bank number. We always say send us a check or we will send you one. We don't need the $2800 but lots of folks that have lost their jobs in the last year with a couple of kids really do. How about the 18,000 pipeline workers that Obiden killed on his first day? The gov is not smart enough to get the relief to the folks that really need it.

From: Jaquomo
06-May-21
Dana, of course. But it is only one side that keeps trying to increase taxes on EVERYONE, spouting disingenuous promises that only the "wealthy" will pay their mythical "fair share" with the increases. Which even functionally retarded Dems like Maxine Waters understands is phony.

06-May-21
Jack,

You and Lou are blind to the inequity in senior executive salaries. It simply is crony capitalism. You are no more conservative than I am, just one of the cronies who thinks taking care of their own is conservatism. If the CEO is worth it, pay them. When they are not, gone like any other with no exit payments.

From: Jackaroo
06-May-21
A true conservative would let the market work it out. A liberal wants the Government to intervene. A teacher telling someone who owned his own business for 30 years how the market works says all that needs to be said.

From: Jaquomo
06-May-21
What if the person the Board wants to hire as CEO asks for an exit package as part of the negotiation, in lieu of some other level of compensation? If the Board decides he/she is worth it, what's the problem? I negotiated some perks whenever I was recruited by a different company. That's not crony capitalism; it's good business.

I know some big league CEOs personally and very well, from big companies everyone knows. One was a sales guy competing with me back in the day, another was once my sales engineer. They chose that career path, and with it the sacrifices to lifestyles, family, marriage, along with extreme pressure. I chose a different path with more balance. Am I jealous of their financial success? Nope. Life is about choices.

Whenever anyone complains to me about CEO compensation, my question is, why didn't you become one, or start and build a successful business, instead of becoming a tree-trimmer, pottery maker, backhoe operator, teacher, whatever? Choices.

From: Earltex
06-May-21

From: Rocky D
06-May-21
“You and Lou are blind to the inequity in senior executive salaries. It simply is crony capitalism. “

I wonder why Democrats are so big on CEO salaries but they say nothing about actors, musicians, or sports stars! I wonder why they are not complaining about RG III, Dwayne Haskins, or Cristian Laetner be a flop and making big bank! What about an actor getting paid to $20M and the movie is a flop yet the theater industry has to show it so many times even though no one is buying tickets. Oh, the hypocrisy of the left! I wonder why they didn’t trash Melinda Gates when she rented an island for $132K a night?

From: Jaquomo
06-May-21
Haha, Rocky. Nailed it. The AVERAGE baseball player makes $4.38M per year to hit a ball with a stick and run around on the grass playing a kid's game. And if he fails 65% of the time, he's in the Hall of Fame and making $30 mil a year. Where is the fake outrage?

From: KSflatlander
07-May-21
Every baseball team has a general manager and owner who are making $$$$$$$. The players are the employees who also have a players union. Fans don’t come to see the GM or owner run the bases. They come to see the employees. The owners know this. Seems like the employees are getting their fair share to me.

The market pay structure in companies is way out of whack and it’s culture thing. It’s not something the government should regulate IMO. That’s what unions use to do. I wonder which political side is against the right of employees to organize? Hmmmm…let me think.

From: Jackaroo
07-May-21
Why should companies allow the employees to organize raise their expenses and make them less competitive? Do you pay more for goods and services to benefit employees of companies or do you act in your own best interest? Isn’t it hypocritical of you to do business with Amazon, target, Apple or any large multinational corporation that pays over seas workers pennies a day? If you sold your home would you sell it for $100k under its value to help out someone that makes less than you?

From: Glunt@work
07-May-21
Every corporation I have worked for or interviewed with negotiated fairly with me. They offered what they were willing to compensate me and I decided if I agreed to it. If I didn't, I explained what compensation I would need to work there and they decided if they agreed. If we couldn't agree we went our separate ways. Their loss ;^)

Same approach when I was on the hiring side. Ditched all that corporate stuff for something totally different and can't say I miss much of it.

From: Rocky D
07-May-21

From: Rocky D
07-May-21
KS, Check and see if Russell Wilson got his fair share on his first contract or that guy named Tom Brady. Players are accessed and paid by the hype they come out of college with and many are absolute bust. Where’s the fairness.

I hope that you are not dumb enough advocate unions and the promotion off less is more. Go do your research on unions. Much of what unions did the first part of the century was essentials in the establishment of fair labor laws. I can get many a former union rep that would say that unions have out lived their usefulness. While you are advocating for workers why should I have to pay union dues to get a job?

From: KSflatlander
07-May-21
Rocky D- I don’t need to research any unions. The heavy equipment operators union put food on my table all my life growing up. The labors union I was in put me through college. I have lived and worked with and without unions. You do know that worker unions also have apprentice pay scales too, right?

I also understand the disadvantages of unions to companies and workers in a competitive market. However, I also know most companies will do what is best for their bottom line and the top few who are getting incentive bonuses if there are no guardrails. It’s the way to system is set up. Same goes with environmental and worker safety issues. Without the threat of fines, penalties, lawsuits (punitive), etc., companies will try to get by with the bare minimum. Not all…but most. If you write laws that limit works rights to unionize, along with widespread non-prescriptive deregulation (financial, environmental, safety), then you basically take away the minimum conscience of boards, CEOs, and owners…companies. That’s why I do not support laws that take away rights for works to organize and non-prescriptive deregulation. Labor laws against unions and widespread non-specific deregulation may increase economic indices but at what costs to workers? It can’t be all one way either for the workers or companies. There’s a balance I guess.

I agree everyone needs skin in the game but if you make $30K and pay 10% in taxes (flat tax), that $3000 means a hell of a more than the $300,0000 does to someone making $3M per year. One is the difference between paying rent/mortgage and food the other is between a second lake house and new sports car. IDK…I guess I need to have a few more beers with HFW (Frank) and discuss/argue to figure out where I land on the tax issue as he is on the opposite side as me on some of this financial/tax stuff. If I open my mind to other perspectives and opinions then my stance on this issue will be more informed and solid.

From: 12yards
07-May-21
My dad's labor union bargained for such high wages the company moved to Toledo, OH from SW MI with basically no severence paid to workers who lost their jobs. My dad started over at min wage. I'm not a big fan of unions honestly.

07-May-21
Jack,

I owned my own business, very successful. One of my clients was the COO of a household name Fortune 100 company. You keep proving how little you know.

And all markets are not the same. Maybe you should try an econ course and learn about different market structures. CEO salaries are decided by Boards who are often deciding salaries for their cronies or that person serves on their board. Typical crap from extreme right wing self serving folks like yourself. It is killing true conservatism.

07-May-21
Lou, all others,

If you are going to try and summarize what I said, get it right, OK! I said if they are worth it, pay them. I worked at GE Capital when Jack Welch reigned there, he was worth it. When they are not worth it and they are let go, no exit pay because they were let go for a reason-lack of performance. And that lack of performance most likely negatively impacted scores if not hundreds or thousands of folks who have no parachute.

And I don't want to hear the whining about how tough a life it was, like any one else they chose that life and the high pay they received at the time they made the sacrifices was a fair exchange. The "line" workers don't get to negotiate a pay package with their cronies or else we would see them do the same. This is an imperfect market and why financial regulations have tempted to mitigate some of the behavior.

When athletes don't perform, they are cut and a lot of that pay was not guaranteed. If the shareholders grant the pay package, I am fine with it. But not a board of cronies being the only ones with say.

EDIT: Will add that there is no outrage for athletes because we are the ones who support their pay by listening to, watching games, buying caps, jerseys etc. etc. When those sales go down, so will the salaries. We are probably witnessing the start of that. And we did see outrage, from you so called conservatives that complained about the NBA players getting tons of money from China. Hey boys, it's a free market both ways but once again this has nothing to do with markets, this has everything to do with extreme conservatives demanding we live our lives according to their rules, the same as the loony left does.

07-May-21
Regarding consumption taxes hurting the economy by reducing spending...

JMO, a valid concern maybe but not in the long run. Consumption taxes will encourage savings, but at some point the marginal utility of another dollar saved will be less than the utility gained from spending that dollar. We just purchased Robin a UTV based on exactly this. We can save more for retirement, but given all likely scenarios she will be just fine so she would rather have the UTV now to enjoy it (at age 64) than more money to leave to a cause upon her death. Most people do think this way.

07-May-21
It’s very easy for me, or anyone, to have disdain for CEOs that are in a different economic stratosphere.

Doug McMillon, the CEO of WalMart will make approximately $22.574 million this year. Crazy, right?

I just had a customer here commenting on that “inequity”.

I casually asked him how he bills out the labor for his employees and subcontractors. He proudly informed me that he bills out their labor to make $15-$20 profit on each hour that they work. He marks up materials to have 35%-40% profit.

I have no real soft spot for McMillon , but his compensation amounts to less than $10 per employee per YEAR. It’s a matter of scale.

07-May-21
"The heavy equipment operators union put food on my table all my life growing up."

no they didn't, your father did.

From: Jaquomo
07-May-21
How lucky are we to have an arbiter of true conservatism right here on our very own Bowsite!

07-May-21
CEO’s are paid to increase profits. When they do, they do get compensated. When they don’t, they get fired. It’s sounds like a job to me.

Bravo to the person who put themselves in a position to be paid so well. The company agrees or they wouldn’t pay it. Any other interpretation of that agreement is not applicable.

Don’t like it? Don’t support the corporation doing it.

My guess is the men who disapprove have never done anything but work for other people. And, certainly have no idea of what supervising and management requires in private business.

From: DanaC
07-May-21
"How lucky are we to have an arbiter of true conservatism right here on our very own Bowsite! "

You're joking, right? This place has those in spades.

07-May-21
Thanks Dana, exactly. And Lou you have no shortage of times you let us know what an expert you are in a multitude of areas and the wisdom you have shared with so and so. Give it a rest.

I am right now aware of one of these "separation" agreements at a very high level in a very large company. The person is being paid to leave because they took the company a good way down the drain. Responsible Boards would write compensation packages that would not pay out for lack of performance, and spell out how that performance would be measured such as ROI or stock price valuation etc. Pay them big on the upside when the organization is successful because all stakeholders win, but treat them like anyone else on the downside. Think about it, if any of us received a huge payout whether we performed or not, that creates less of an incentive for us to perform. There is a reason athlete pay/bonuses are tied to specific performance objectives in many cases.

Responsible to do this because organizations have to protect all stakeholders, not just their buddies. Again, I have no problem paying people that perform. I agreed with the above that teachers ought to be paid on performance, and fired if they don't. You all have no problem with that but when one of your rich buddies doesn't perform you now contort yourselves to find ways their golden parachutes are justified. They are not, and that you believe they are makes you nothing but a crony capitalist, not a true conservative Lou.

07-May-21
I haven’t seen anyone contort themselves to justify golden parachutes for poorly performing CEOs.

The only comment that I noticed was that someone stated that exit packages or golden parachutes are negotiated at hire.

From: Jackaroo
07-May-21
“I am right now aware of one of these "separation" agreements at a very high level in a very large company.”

He reads the wall st. Journal and tries to pretend it’s real life. Never sat on a board, never recruited a high level executive, never negotiated a high dollar comp package. I read the book” the Outpost” I earned the Medal of Honor.

07-May-21
You are right, none of that except to talk to the high ranking executive who might be recruited to fill the position. Everyone else recognizes you are full of crap, maybe you will yourself one day Jack. Better get some more talking points from Tucker now!

The only guy here who is wanting to hold teachers to the same standards we hold executives and everyone else. Hmmm. Guys like you see and attempt to justify different standards for your buddies because you are simply arrogant, and cannot understand people don't have to have your experience to have a valid opinion. The same arrogance blocks you from understanding the majority of voters who said "no" to a second term for Trump. You actually think you know more than them and that the FF only cared about people like you and our sacred documents were written just for people like you. You keep getting it wrong, choke on that awhile Jack.

In the meantime, I will keep applying conservative principles for all people, not just those like me. Now get back to denigrating all teachers some more, it certainly makes you look like the fool you are.

From: Jackaroo
07-May-21
When someone over explains and rambles they are lying. So this random executive that “might” be recruited knows all the details about a separation agreement of the guy he might replace. Then he shares it with you. That would be unethical on two fronts, mr ethics.

From: Rocky D
07-May-21
Teachers denigrate themselves! If you do not believe me just look at their voting records. Talk about sheep...

From: KSflatlander
07-May-21
Once again Jackaroo has exactly 0 counter points.

From: Norseman
07-May-21
Spot on Jackaroo.

From: RK
07-May-21

From: snag
07-May-21
I never understood why some folks complained about how much someone makes a year…probably just jealous.

08-May-21
class envy and class warfare are the tools of socialists.

08-May-21
Jack,

You are the one who is lying and doesn’t know crap about the situation. The situation is public, reported on and I have numerous acquaintances who work there. The possible replacement just happens to be a friend. And I don’t lie, at age 62 and with my experiences I know people including my brother, a retired COO. Try getting your facts straight before issuing your proclamations, you keep looking the fool.

And you proved you are an elitist with your attitude if someone hasn’t been a senior executive, negotiated a compensation package, etc. their opinion doesn’t count. You are no different than the elitists on the left, and still don’t get the Constitution is for all Americans, just not you guys who think you are better. Wake up Trump cultists. Jack, you have the same attitude he does, you know more so there only needs to be one way communication. Start your next post, “From the desk of Jack...”. LOL.

Ryan is right, you don’t have a legitimate response to my position so attack the person.

From: Woods Walker
08-May-21
Oh yes Frank, lecture us about lying. You lied about me and never proved it and you STILL haven't retracted it. You have about as much credibility as Joe Biden. You're a joke. Too bad you're a teacher.

From: Owl
08-May-21
"It's a matter of scale" says orionsbrother. I agree.

In that light, folks like Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos are grossly under-compensated.

08-May-21
Wood,

Go back to your extremist site where you have stated the election was stolen and never challenged your fellow whack jobs when they posted BLM infiltrators were responsible for Jan 6th. When you don’t challenge the lies your are giving your tacit approval which means you are part of it. Good thing there are teachers like me calling out whack job extremists like yourself whose vision of the way they want everyone to live has been rejected by the freedom loving masses!

08-May-21
Woods,

And use your own standard, prove the election was stolen, prove it.

You can’t, makes you a liar. Some of you are pathetic, you have a different set of standards for yourselves than you do everyone else and too blind in your hate to see it.

Here’s an example from these latest threads...Ryan has a different view so that makes him not a hunter. What a joke that none of you address these childish attacks and debate just the views.

From: Treeline
08-May-21
Dang, and here I was planning how to use all that tax money that wasn’t gonna be taken from me for some awesome bow hunts and new gear...

Maybe save a couple of years worth and finally be able to do that Stone Sheep hunt that’s on the bucket list, if Canada ever reopens ;-)

From: 70lbdraw
08-May-21
HFW, I'm still waiting for Ryan to tell us who has been hacking his computer. He called me a liar and claims he doesn't remember it. And even tho I showed proof, YOU defended him. And he still hasn't addressed it. So take your 'holier than thou' "teaching attitude" of ethics and morality, and consider getting your 'moral compass' recalibrated!

Are you a member/supporter of the teachers union? They've been lying to us for years, and they're playing politics with our kids future's over this whole covid thing. Is that why you have so much time to sit here and lecture us on the joys of liberalism? You're still getting paid, and crying for a raise while sipping margaritas in Mexico!

Unbelieveable...who's pathetic?

From: Jackaroo
08-May-21
Look up the term “midwit” lots of them teach. Information to them infers status and is used like currency. They don’t have to know what the information means or how to use it. That’s why so many of them are envious of people that are more successful than them. It sends them into a rage that someone can be worth millions of dollars with less education than them. Lots of midwits on the internet too. Facebook, Wikipedia, Google are the tools of the midwit class. They can search a topic and pretend to be in the know. One of the tells of a midwit is when they say” your going to have to provide a source for that”. It does two things it gives them time to search more for counter points and it gives them a feigned victory if you refuse. Another sign of a midwit is when they post common information in the news as though they are informed on a particular subject. One of the midwits just did it on the “building anything” thread.

08-May-21
i think it was george bernard shaw who said "those who can, do. those who cant, teach."

From: Lawdy
09-May-21
Jackaroo, I just commented on the building anything thread and I didn’t see any comments that qualified as “mid wit.” I live in logging country and unless you sell to the Chinese, the price for loggers and truckers up here doesn’t support what lumber prices are. Low grade softwood, is unsalable. We are grinding fir and hemlock tops into chips and mulch. The loss of paper mills up here has really hurt. Hardwood is the only thing worth cutting. The Chinese want it so they can make cheap crap to sell to us.

From: Jackaroo
09-May-21
Lawdy that would make you directly informed with personal experience. Not a characteristic of a midwit.

From: Woods Walker
09-May-21
Hey Lying Frank: My thoughts on the election are my OPINION, and as a free American I have the freedom to do that, in spite of what people like you say. What I DO NOT do is make up pure lies about other people and then post them like you do. But I expected nothing less of you because we all know your game Frank. You're pathetic. Get help.

09-May-21
70,

The problem is yours. I already said above I am not a member of the union. Joined for one semester, ran for an officer’s position and won. Forced the union to return portion of dues used for political purposes, and then resigned. Members since then have some dues refunded each year. (Little old dumb ass who doesn’t know much according to you blow hards knows enough) Don’t know what you are talking about with Ryan specifically, I must have missed something? What I have defended since I know him personally is his integrity and that he has a good heart. We disagree a lot, but do so with the ability to remain friends and cordial, something most of you here are incapable of obviously.

Started as an adjunct while working for GE Capital. Because of my reviews was offered a full time position. We had our second miscarriage and could not have children, Robin was a dental hygienist so our income was solid. Decided to teach FT because it is very enjoyable. GE asked me to stay on as a PT manager. Don’t know anyone else they ever did this for. They made an offer I could not refuse. After two years they said come back FT or that’s it. I left and shortly afterwards started my company while teaching. Still go to lunch with my boss from 30 years ago.

I am 62, in the 94 percentile of preparedness for retirement. We are way better than most, I recognize God blest us.

I don’t say this to brag, but to say you guys have proven exactly who you are, biased jerks who don’t know squat and are too stupid to know it.

And while in college I graduated from Marine Corps OCS and was offered a full ride plus income scholarship for a Masters in Econ. Tell us all again how I don’t know anything jackapoo. You are an insecure little boy.

09-May-21
Hey lying woods stumbler, get help. We know you are an extremist who when called out on it runs away because you are just a coward. How’s that, now back to join your other radicals.

And have an informed opinion. Quit mocking educators because you obviously didn’t pay attention when they taught logic and critical thinking.

09-May-21
And woods, it is my opinion that when a person challenges all falsehoods from one side but does not do the same with the other side’s outright falsehoods, they are condoning those lies, which makes you a liar. Figured I better insert the logic for you.

From: Jackaroo
09-May-21

Jackaroo's embedded Photo
Jackaroo's embedded Photo

09-May-21
Glad you are finally doing a little self reflection Jack!

Here’s some more for you in case you missed the above points. You and others here are ideologues. When you cannot accept someone who thinks differently, you put them in a box you understand. I am a teacher, your box is then I must be liberal. I am not. Box broken.

Box 2, no golden parachutes for executives, your box, I am jealous of others’ money. I have enough of my own. Box broken.

Box 3, I have different opinions, they cannot be from experience, but only from what I have read. Facts are, I have plenty of varied experience, some of which you and others do not.

Funny how you want to attack me with someone else’s words, I am sure the irony eludes you.

No Jack, all I am is someone who kicks bullies right where they need it. I don’t look the other way while a bunch of insecure dolts think they can get away with attacking a decent person. I am sure as an ideologue you cannot understand someone coming to the defense of another who thinks differently, so let me give you a clue...it’s simply because what our FF stood for and wrote about includes the Ryan’s of this country. You don’t get that and I am convinced never will because of extreme bias.

From: KSflatlander
09-May-21
Where’s that from Jackaroo…some biography of Trump LMAO. Only you would post some words someone else thought of, not source it, and try to take indirectly credit for it. You just lack original thoughts.

By the way, I don’t ever remember calling you a liar in any thread. But evidently I did. I did send you a PM owning it even though I didn’t ever remember typing it. Sorry I hurt your feelings…I didn’t realize how sensitive you were. I’ve plenty worse said about me or my family and you don’t seeing me whining our it.

From: Jackaroo
09-May-21

Jackaroo's embedded Photo
Jackaroo's embedded Photo

From: 70lbdraw
09-May-21
No hurt feelings here. I'm just giving you a chance to own up to your false denials. You guys (KS, HFW) throw around the word "integrity" as if you actually had any or knew what it was. It's OK, in all my years I've never known a liberal to admit their shortcomings...I sure as hell don't expect that to change anytime soon.

From: KSflatlander
09-May-21
Robert Greene…that explains everything lol.

From: Matt
09-May-21
I had beers with 2 Aussies two summer back that had spent a few months travelling all over the US. Not just big cities, but lots of smaller ones and with a focus on the SE US. One was a teacher and one was en electrician. When I asked them about the differences between the countries they had observed their first response was that, in Australia being a teacher or tradesman was a solid middle class job (able to buy a house, save for retirement, etc.), but those jobs were more lower middle class in the US.

I am all about meritocracies and getting paid for performance, but there is growing pay inequity in the US that I believe will be the biggest factor if/when our capitalist system is eventually undermined.

From: Glunt@work
09-May-21
My electrician buddy lives in a very nice house on 40 acres (not cheap here in CO) and hunts all over the world. My wife works for the school system and we have a nicer home than I ever planned on and her retirement plan is the envy of many private sector middle class folks.

From: Rocky D
09-May-21
I am always amazed to see people complain about their pay when they made the decision to be in that career field. I joined the Army an served twenty four years and never complained about the pay because it was my decision. Worse yet, is to play on the emotions of society to lobby for your pay raise. Seldom do you see this tactic used by first responders even though many of their paychecks could use a boost!

From: bowhunt
09-May-21
In the northwest where I am electricians and teachers are definitely in the middle class.

From: bowhunt
09-May-21
Journeyman tradesmen get $36-$45 per hour + health insurance + pension. Definitely a good career making enough to have a home, retirement & healthcare is part of the pay package above the hourly wage in most cases for Electricians, plumbers, and carpenters here in Oregon. I have lots of friends in these trades and they make a good living with GREAT benefit packages.

If you had a husband that was an electrician, and wife that was a teacher (or vice versa) they would probably have a household income somewhere between $150 and $200k with with wages and benefits.

09-May-21
I quit a 6 figure job to take back up the trades. And as of right now, it seems like it’s going to be a smart move. Teachers here make an hourly rate equal to all but the highest white color job. When benefits, salary, and all compensation are factored in.

Your buddies are wrong. And, so are you for even repeating it. If not for illegal immigrant workers holding hourly rates of low skilled trade workers to a minimum, even those pay rates would be well over $20 is my guess.

It’s just a guess. But, from a guy that does it in this country. Instead of drink beers and chat about it with those that don’t do either.

From: Matt
09-May-21

Matt's Link
People who study this sort of thing disagree with you - at least on the teacher piece. But I am sure that comes as a surprise to absolutely no one.

From: Matt
09-May-21

Matt's Link
Data on tradesmen is harder to find, but this article from 2017 has US electricians at a mean annual compensation of $52,910 and Australian electricians at $81,536. Illegal tradesmen artifically suppressing wages definately plays into that equation - at least locally.

While I know folks on this site love their "alternate facts" and sample sizes of 2, the math is the $81K is 54% more than $53K, which validates the point made by my acquaintances.

09-May-21
How original. A educational piece on how educators are under paid.

Since you apparently are once again intent to be a wise mouth, let’s do a little figuring. You know. Common sense wise.

Teachers here are making $42,000 after three years. I can’t comment on before or how high the pay is. Because it’s a county issue. But, for working from the middle of August through the last day in May, with a Friday a month on half a day, along with 13 paid holidays a year and 10 hours of leave and sick time incurred for every pay period, with a week for thanksgiving, 7 working days for Christmas, a week on Easter, all equals 30 weeks of pay for time worked for that third year pay rate I’m no genius but, that is over a $1000 a week worked, not counting insurance and credit union, benefitted for. With almost 5 months of vacation to go with that.

Common sense tells me Either teachers in Australia are making huge coin or, you exercised poor judgement in reciting their BS. Feels good don’t it.

From: RK
09-May-21
Matt

Your last trip to Australia was when?

09-May-21
To answer your last post, common sense says everyone working blue collar jobs in America trails Australian’s median income concerning blue collar jobs.

From: xtroutx
09-May-21
I retired after 35 yrs of being a carpenter in 2010. Those numbers are not even close to what a journeyman carpenter or electrician make. I made that kind of money listed above in the early 1980's as a third year apprentice, working on the oil shale project in Parachute Colorado. Some people are happy if they can work 3 days a week, or for 3 months, others had families and worked full time and overtime.. I went 30 years without ever collecting an unemployment check. Its like anything, you get out what you put in.

From: itshot
09-May-21
lots of cali license plates here, lots more than years past, yup...nobody leaving cali, cnn said so

hopefully not leftist tools like those that stayed behind to obfuscate and post bs 'facts'

hopefully folks looking to leave a rotting mess and contribute to a successful society and not poison it

biden is awesome, probably best president ever

From: RK
09-May-21
Lots of Cali plates here on Texas coast also. We will see

Biden sucks so far for those of us that did not want higher everything. But for those socialists here, congrats on getting your guy

From: bowhunt
09-May-21

bowhunt's Link
I posted about friends in trades in the state of Oregon. They for sure make what I posted. They are journeymen in their respective trades. Both work in commercial. In this state they definitely make a good living, and have good healthcare + retirement packages.

The link shows Oregon teachers wages as of 2016, they make more now. Below is average salaries. They also have health care and retirement packages in addition to that.

Seems like that compensation package would put a person in the middle class category for 9-10 months of work per year.

Elementary school teachers $63390

Middle school teachers $66480

High school teachers $66010

I don’t think the 2 guys from Australia have an accurate impression of those trades pay in this country. At least in my state, they are in the middle class.

There’s not really an exact definition of middle class, but I would think that would be incomes in the $60-$80k range in my state. Here in Oregon the median HOUSEHOLD income is $62k The median PER CAPITA income is $33k.

10-May-21
I have never complained about my salary, in fact I am over-paid given it is a public service job. The benefits including health care and pension are first rate. Many of us have secondary incomes.

10-May-21
are people being forced to become teachers now? if people dont like the compensation prospects, they can always go to ceo school.

10-May-21
Ricky

Agreed. Income is not the only reason one chooses a certain profession. At least for me, teaching returns benefits I never experienced in the corporate world.

Further, if you annualized teachers salaries for their time off, like summers, they are extremely competitive.

From: bowhunt
10-May-21
Ricky no one on here complained about their own pay. Below is a quote from Matt. He had beers with two Australian guys in America on vacation.

“When I asked them about the differences between the countries they had observed their first response was that, in Australia being a teacher or tradesman was a solid middle class job (able to buy a house, save for retirement, etc.), but those jobs were more lower middle class in the US. I am all about meritocracies and getting paid for performance, but there is growing pay inequity in the US that I believe will be the biggest factor if/when our capitalist system is eventually undermined.”

People just posted information about the places they live in America that counter what the Australian guys “learned” about America, and Matt seemed to infer he agreed with their view of America.

In the areas me and others live teachers and high skilled tradesmen are solidly in the middle or upper middle class

From: Jackaroo
10-May-21
Typical midwittery,

My daughters boyfriend makes $120 k before overtime as an iron worker @26 yo. Bought a home at 22. When he was in the apprentice program at 18 he made $60k.

The guy that pumps my septic tank just retired as a lineman making $250 k plus a year with overtime. He paid $300k to buy a septic truck and a list of names from a guy retiring from the business 5 years ago. He set his son up to run the business while he still worked. The son built the business up and they now have 10 trucks and are billing more than $5 million a year. He jokes who ever thought you could be a millionaire pumping other peoples shit. America is a horrible place we all better move to Australia.

10-May-21
"Ricky no one on here complained about their own pay."

no but people did complain about ceo pay. if being a ceo is so easy, those people should become ceos. if they want to follow their passion, they can do that too but don't whine if others dont see the same value in it.

From: bigswivle
10-May-21
“ I had beer with two Australians”

LMAO!!!!!

From: Stix
10-May-21
Inflation is here. My sister in NJ says bacon is $9/pack, Eggs $4.50/doz. Predicting gas shortage due to pipeline stoppage and lack of drivers. Expect $7/gallon.

All these millenials who are supporting liberal policies werent around for gas rationing in the 70's. That's where were heading.

From: Surfbow
10-May-21
No kidding Jackaroo, trades are typically not lower class unless they put themselves there. My HVAC guy is crushing it but can't get anyone to come apprentice for him, all the young kids he tries to recruit don't want to do work where they might get 'dirty'. He said with for the first 2 years he'll pay $75k to a high school graduate and after that it's easily over six figures with him, and he constantly has more work than he can handle.

10-May-21
I wander what other topic of discussion the nutsack from California has flawed info on? The kind that is exact opposite of real world results? It’s almost like he hand picks his sourcing to confirm a desired result. SMH

From: Matt
10-May-21

Matt's Link
Bowhunt, these numbers are a bit dated (2019), but suggest that starting teachers in Australia make slightly more than the mean teacher salaries in OR - that is an average of all teachers.

Per you article, bginning teacher salaries in OR with a bachelor's degree are $36K-$51K.

"The starting full-time salary for a classroom teacher in most Australian states is between $65,000 and $70,000, based on every enterprise bargaining agreement (EBA) we examined."

WV, if my numbers ate flawed, please cited some counter examples. Just running your mouth based on what you think you know doesn't cut it.

10-May-21
I reckon it’s too much to ask you to consider something besides the hardline stance you portrayed on originally. I’m sure you’ll carry it to the end you are correct. You found a link to say so.

I posted real world, real life, factual info to dispute it. And, it’s been confirmed as the case by others. I’ve already shown you your info is flawed. But, In Typical nutsack fashion, you’ll pick something and argue on it. When it’s not even the topic.

I could care less what salaries are what. But, real life in America says your point of American pay equality in the teaching and trade fields is wrong. Period. You can site all the bs you want. But, guys making the median incomes you quoted don’t drive two $40,000- $60,000 vehicles, live in $250,000 homes, while supporting a family. That’s as simple as it gets.

From: soccern23ny
10-May-21
When the working wages for the proletariat are beyond low and don't amount to a living wage, the only option is to tax the bourgeoisie in order to make up for it.

Have you ever asked yourself where are the tax dollars going? Why do they need to raise taxes?

IE... If taxes are able to fund all the programs(roads, bridges, SS, etc) we need while taxing 100 million people at 15%. They should also cover all those programs for 300 million people getting taxed 15%

Now, if all of a sudden those tax dollars are covering costs, you have to ask yourself "why?". The only real answer is the tax rate has been cut and/or the people being taxed 15% are making less money. That means less money is being taxed and collected. Ie... insteat of 70k on average being taxed. It's 50k. That equals a lot less tax dollars. And where is all this would be tax money if it isn't being collected by the government or paid to the working class?.... It's at the top, it's in the hands of the rich. Being hoarded. It's impossible to spend all that money in one lifetime. Shit, they even made a movie about how hard it is to actually spend 30 million in 30 days

Now add onto that all the corporate elite tax cuts for the rich. Now what option are we left with?

We now need to raise the tax % from 15% to 20%. So we can get the same tax squeeze out of the 50k$ that we were out of the 70k$

...

and there you have it. Lowering taxes on the rich, while not increasing worker wages results in even more taxes for the working class, all while getting less programs with those tax dollars.

But i know... a person flipping a burger shouldn't make as much as a skilled blue collar worker. You're right, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be making more than 15$/hr. Most of the working class is underpaid. And you've been led to believe that you need to worry about what the bottom rung makes in relation to you, instead of worrying about what you are making in relation to the top.

We went from being able to get by on one blue collar income earner to both heads of households having to work multiple jobs to just barely scrape by. Fun fact... when that one income earner lifestyle was possible, the corporate elite were being taxed at the highest levels.

From: bowhunt
10-May-21
Not to beat a dead horse Matt, I never made any statements about Australian pay rates. I just posted AVERAGE 1st through 12th grade teacher pay in my state, not counting benefit packages.

Your Australian buddies made a blanket statement about the poor economic class of teachers and electricians in this country based of what they learned on their vacation here. You stated those aren’t jobs that pay enough to own a home and have a retirement.

I simply posted accurate information showing different in my state. I would assume California and Washington would have similar or higher pay scales as Oregon for the teaching and high skilled tradesmen careers.

Things could be different in the town they had a beer with a teacher in to come up with that assumption.

From: soccern23ny
10-May-21
Just a quick comment about pay rates in states vs countries....

they are averages. Sure 66k for a teacher in state xyz... but if that is the average for the teachers who work in a major metropolitan city in state xyz like portland or sanfransico, than those are almost poverty wages. Sure 66k$ in rural alabama is great for a middle school teacher?

In sanfransico? that teacher is eating ramen and living in the bad parts of oakland for 66k, while literally teaching the future of America

From: bowhunt
10-May-21
Median HOUSEHOLD income in Portland metro is $62k

Teachers are not at poverty level in the Portland Metro

Ridiculous.....

From: soccern23ny
10-May-21
@bowhunt

dude I was giving rough examples.

also... sanfransico https://sfgov.org/scorecards//safety-net/poverty-san-francisco#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20HUD%20defined%20%E2%80%9CLow,for%20a%20family%20of%20four.

perhaps the use of the word "poverty" was the wrong word. It's also out dated https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/poverty/news/2020/03/05/481314/poverty-line-matters-isnt-capturing-everyone/#:~:text=Despite%20being%20one%20of%20the,poverty%20line%E2%80%94is%20remarkably%20outdated.&text=In%202018%2C%20the%20poverty%20line,poverty%20rate%20was%2011.8%20percent.

since it can't possibly account for different geographic regions well(just like minimum wage can't)

You make 66k in San Fransico, you aren't sleeping in sanfransico unless you are homeless

Many places the '"average" wage qualitfies you for low income housing.

From: Jackaroo
10-May-21
It’s telling that Matt didn’t have any experience personally that would have told him that his info was wrong. You know like putting yourself though school by working in one of the trades Etc. Or have a relative or a friend in the trades that he could call and ask. Something tells me a rough day for him was waiting for mommy to reload his debit card. Habitat covered the Teachers , Matt should listen to him.

People haven’t traveled the world very much to believe that US workers are underpaid as a comparison. We don’t have a working class under paid issue we have two fundamental issues that are being ignored. 1. We shipped the majority of the living wage jobs to China, India , Vietnam Etc. Look at the last employment statistics or any for the last 20 + years most of the job growth is in the service sector , waiters and bartenders. 2. We have an education issue. We insist that everyone is equal in education instead of being realistic like say ,Australia. They test their students at every transfer point like elementary, jr high , high school. The people that don’t have an aptitude for higher education go into a vocational program. When they walk out the door they don’t have to work at McDonalds. They go into an apprenticeship program in what ever area they have aptitude. But the point is they don’t have to be trained at a basic level, they are job ready. The people that work at McDonald’s in Australia minus the handicapped , disabled Etc. are failures and deserve to be where they are. Same here with higher education. How many people were trained and ready to roll in a career straight out of high school or college? Raise your hand. Zero. That’s what I thought Take a look at the top 10 majors in Chinas universities vs US universities . 60% of the US are liberal arts ,nothing degrees, 0 LA degrees for China. We are discussing raising taxes instead of wages because we are a country that fixes the symptom not the problem. I can guarantee you what China would do in this situation they would fix the problem regardless of how it made people feel. We have lost the stomach to do what’s right and for making hard choice’s.

From: bowhunt
10-May-21
Soccern23ny

Median per capita income in Portland metro is $32k

Median household income in Portland metro is 63k

Average teacher pay across the entire state for a 6th grade teacher is $66480 as of 2016. You know they have had multiple cost of living raises since then.

The average pay of a 6th grade teacher as of 5 years ago is over double the average per capita income in Portland metro area.

That same average income for the 6th grade teacher is higher than the median HOUSEHOLD income in the Portland metro area.

I would venture to guess the teacher union contracts in the Portland metro area are negotiated with a higher pay then in a tiny city like madras Oregon in the country with lower cost of living.

In my zip code the median household income is $94000. Household income is everyone working over age 15 at a house.

2 houses up from me is a teacher, and 3 houses the other direction is a teacher.

Again just pushing back on the country being painted with a broad brush from a couple Australian guys impressions on vacation.

In Oregon they are dead wrong

From: Bowbender
10-May-21

Bowbender's Link
Average teacher pay in PA is $66K, with the highest average in Bucks county at just shy of $100K. Here in Lancaster county it's right around $70K. Hardly lower middle class. Interesting to note that the three teachers in our neighborhood all sent their kids to private schools. Of course they are pushing 15-20 years so they are closer to ~$100K. Tell the Aussies they're full of shit.

From: RK
10-May-21
For real the Aussie teachers make 60k a year Australian dollars. 50 k us

Somehow the conversion rate got left out. Australia Great place. Love it. But it ain't the United States of America!!

From: bowhunt
11-May-21
Ha ha this is the best thread ever. RK is on to something. Everything I can find on google from Australian websites shows the teacher pay there as $70-80k. BUT, that is in Australian currency. Converted to USD 72k Australian is $56k us.

So our teachers might actually be paid mor then there’s

Get those Australian boys another beer!!!

From: Surfbow
11-May-21
"You make 66k in San Fransisco, you aren't sleeping in sanfransico unless you are homeless"

HA, you can make $166K in San Francisco and you still won't be sleeping there...

11-May-21
"Ha ha this is the best thread ever. RK is on to something. Everything I can find on google from Australian websites shows the teacher pay there as $70-80k. BUT, that is in Australian currency. Converted to USD 72k Australian is $56k us. So our teachers might actually be paid mor then there’s..."

the school year is 4 weeks longer in australia...income tax rates for mid income workers in australia is 32.5% vs 22% in us...a gallon of gas in australia is over $4 per gallon...home price to income ratio australia - 7.38...home price to income ratio us - 3.99

11-May-21
Bingo. No thought on conversion between currency. No thought on living costs. Nothing but reciting info that was incorrect. He was just passing it on without vetting it. A poor decision indeed. After being a wise cracker over the same prior. What goes around, comes around when you act like that.

11-May-21
Now wait a minute...Biden is set to announce an agreement that Lyft and Uber will provide free pick up and return to vacation sites thru July 4th.

We can hopefully all agree this is leadership and will bring us all back together;-)

I hear he is working on free beer for all kumbaya parties!

From: Ok...Russ
11-May-21
Which vacation sites HFW? I'm going to Florida end of this month and could use a free lift from the airport to our hotel.

From: BC
11-May-21
Nothing is free. More tax dollars.

From: greg simon
11-May-21
Pretty sure he said vaccination sites. But if you were to get vaccinated while on vacation...???

HFW, where did you hear this talk of free beer? Imagine if there were a vaccination site nearby! See where I'm going with this...Free ride to a place with FREE BEER!!! Hell that might be enough get me to think about voting Democrat!!!!!!

11-May-21
Oh, vaccination sites, my bad :-). It might have been the beverage I was drinking.

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