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Matt

Prayers sent

Simply awful. Prayers to all the families.

The investigation will come up with a root cause of failure. Tragic situation for those people.

The early news reports from that morning said there is a sister bldg the next block over. If I had a place in that one and I could see cracks in the structures....I'm outta there.

I don't think beach sand can support traditional sink holes as we often see them in Florida. I think that is mostly a freshwater thing where the roof of the underground cavern gives away. I'm thinking the engineers and scientists who study the building designs would know how far down and thick the bedrock is and what it could support. The news reports also said there were ongoing lawsuits about cracks in the building prior to the collapse. A working theory.....if the metal used in the initial construction rusted (like rebar), that rust would expand and cause cracks plus weaken the structure. Beach/salt life is brutal on metal things down there. As old as the bldg was (1980's)....I could see that as a possibility over time.

rising ocean levels, poor construction standards of decades past(ie... none of that government red tape to keep them in check), I've read that other buildings in the past used sand mix in the concrete that had too much salt thus reacting with steel and corroding it over time. Florida is also well known for sink holes.

I'm sure if this was "natural" the warning signs were there. Either they were ignored or just misinterpreted/didn't think it would be bad.

While authorities are understandably trying to frame Thursday’s collapse as a unique and freak accident, a few options have been raised about what possibly went wrong. Peter Dyga, president and CEO of a Florida chapter of the Associated Builders and Contractors, told the Miami Herald that investigators would be looking into numerous factors, including the building’s architectural plans, construction materials, and maintenance records. “This is going to be probably multiple years in trying to figure out what happened here. There are so many variables,” he told the Herald. “It’s probably more than likely going to be a combination of bad things.” Burkett told a local TV news station that “he couldn’t imagine any reason for the tragedy other than if a sinkhole occurred or someone pulled the supports out of the building.” The vice president of a construction company explained to another local news station why Florida is a particularly difficult place to build—if steel gets exposed to salt or chlorides, it can corrode; if soil subsides, it can affect the foundation and overall structure of a building

Pretty soon, however, news stories started to assess possible connections between climate change and the collapse. The Washington Post reports that “experts on sea level rise and climate change caution that it is too soon to speculate if rising seas helped destabilize the oceanfront condo,” and then goes on to explain all of the things we already do know that feel quite relevant: Miami is particularly vulnerable to sea-level rise—some estimates in Miami suggest it’s seen a foot of rise in the past century, half of that coming since the 1990s—and sea-level rise in limestone is a particularly worrisome combination (because the water goes through instead of being held back, which can exacerbate corrosion). The Palm Beach Post sorts through the same issues, with various experts weighing in from various directions about the most likely culprits. Some think sea level rise and its corrosive effects might have played a role, others are more inclined to suggest it was the crane on the roof that might have been a bigger factor. The experts largely dismiss sinkholes as a possible cause because they’re less prevalent in the immediate area, though for what it’s worth, a paper published in the Natural Hazards and Earth System Sciences in 2018 looked specifically at climate change’s effect on sinkholes in Florida and concluded that “for every 0.1°C rise in global temperature, the number of sinkholes increases by 1%–

lots of possibilities already mentioned, not sure the extents of the garage underneath but the collapse was isolated to one section of the building with the remainder following...looking at gjoogle earth, about 2/3 of the entire building collapsed, much more than the aftermath pictures seem to show

erosion, corrosion or possibly broken pt cables from roof work but it looked like the thing gave out at ground level or below, in the video

one or more adjacent columns slowly sinking while the rest remained stable would cause tremendous shear forces at the slab connections over time, possibly exposing the rebar to accelerated corrosion, especially down in the garage

concrete was basically useless as a building material until it was reinforced with steel, but they both work together very well until one or the other fails

the investigation should be interesting, i hope it's thorough and conclusive, not some expedient climate change rubbish

prayers sent to those dealing with loss of loved ones

This article is informative on concrete construction. Read about the affects of rebar in concrete. Having seawater intrusion in the parking underneath the building had to have created issues. Concrete has a lifespan depending how it is made. They used to use beach sand in making concrete. There was a large sand plant near we’re we used to live that was taken from the ocean.

35 W bridge collapse in MN due to Global warming, systemic racism or faulty engineering and decay????

great time to be a loy-yehh

Building on a barrier island, like Miami Beach, has got to have a unique set of engineering challenges due to the ever shifting nature of the ground/sand.

Matt

To WHOM? Clearly not to anyone with the authority to say, "Get those people out of there NOW."

The report didn't say whether the structure was at risk of collapse, but the group said it provided an estimate to the condo association to "make the extensive and necessary repairs.""

The report didn't say whether the structure was at risk of collapse, but the group said it provided an estimate to the condo association to "make the extensive and necessary repairs.""

It ain’t Joe Biden’s fault that this building came down.

And JMO, “if” salt water is bad for rebar AND the local (salt) water table has risen, it’s probably not a horrible stretch to think that just maybe there’s a link.

I haven’t looked at the report. I won’t either. But, if the concrete footings caused the collapse, it’s due to several things possibly. First, not being thick enough. The ground underneath the footings could have deteriorated. Causing the footers to float. Or, the concrete wasn’t reinforced properly with the proper rebar.

This is assuming the architect got the scale of footings correct. Or, in later construction, the engineer simply misfigured in footer requirements. The later two depends on how old the building was if incorrect load ratings were used in the design.

Im guessing the footers were compromised or under built to begin with. They shifted. Things went south from there. It’s really not as uncommon as you’d think. Residential housing country wide has these type problems routinely.

CAS is right on the money. Poor detailing for water drainage coupled with neglecting maintenance likely doomed this building.

I've seen some really alarming photos of concrete in incredibly poor condition. Failing to address that years ago sped up the corrosion and something failed that created a progressive collapse scenario.

I've read that the pool area slab failed prior to the rest of the building (which is identified in the Morabito report as being in poor condition in 2018). Depending on the framing layout this could have doubled the unbraced length of the main building columns. There isn't a structural engineer in the world that would have designed for that scenario.

based on geotech drilling reports, many (sometimes hundreds) of piles are driven or augered/cast to sufficient depths then groups of piles are isolated with massive 'pile caps' which support the building columns, grade beams are used horizontally between pile caps to support walls, kinda like a footing but they dont depend on the ground for support

The entire underside of the building should be able to wash out with no structural effect, which happens quite a bit on the coast during hurricanes.

one story mentioned that a lady in the building was talking to her husband who was out of town when she witnessed an area of the pool deck collapse, presumably to the garage below, just before her phone went dead....that's a pretty violent & powerful occurrence that may have started a domino effect towards the building, combine that with weakened structure from cracking, spalling, corrosion

if the garage outside the building footprint was only 1 story deep, its column footings may have been traditional 'spread' footings with no pile support, if that's the case they could have more easily dropped over time allowing slab connections to weaken and fail

all just speculation, wish it never happened

A rising water table could reduce friction and reduce capacity but pile failures alone wouldn't cause a collapse like this. Pile failure would be seen in increased settlement which could put stresses into column beam/slab connections that they weren't designed for. I'd expect for those stresses to be large enough to cause failure large differential deflections would be needed. There would have been cracking in walls or doors that wouldn't open/close.

Pile issues may be a small factor but I still think corrosion and lack of maintenance is going to be the main cause.

What I think is the foundation was compromised underneath. Like I said before, I haven’t read the first thing about it it watched the first show about it. First I heard of it was this thread. But, whatever caused it to collapse, my guess is it’s related to the foundation being compromised.

Here is a photo of a foundation to a big beach bldg in Daytona along with the story behind it.

I also ran across this link discussing who is responsible for condo foundation repairs. I don't know what state it is in....take it FWIW.

https://www.inman.com/2009/01/20/condo-owners-stuck-with-foundation-repairs/

""Condo owners stuck with foundation repairs? HOA denies responsibility when estimate hits $12,000

by Barry Stone January 20, 2009

DEAR BARRY: We own a two-story condo, located at the far end of our building. This year, we discovered foundation settlement when cracks and gaps appeared on the outside of our unit. The condo committee hired a structural expert who recommended pillars to prevent further settlement. The proposed cost for the work is $12,000. The attorney for the condo association says that we, not the condo association, must pay for the repair work. Unfortunately, we don’t have that much money. A friend suggested that we simply patch the cracks, repaint the exterior, and forget about the foundation. If we do this, do we have to inform buyers of the settlement problem when we eventually sell the condo? –Rosemary

DEAR ROSEMARY: You have raised three separate issues, each of which is critically important:

1. The condo association is totally off base in denying responsibility for the foundation problem. Condo owners are responsible only for interior maintenance. All exterior components of the property, including the foundation, are the responsibility of the owners association. To enforce compliance by the association, you should hire a real estate attorney to counter the claims of the attorney who represents the association.

2. You should not perform cosmetic repairs on the symptoms of a structural problem. This would be no better than putting fresh makeup on a terminally ill patient and pretending that good health had been restored.

3. If the foundation problem is not repaired, further settlement could become a problem for future owners of the property. Disclosure is therefore essential. Failure to inform future buyers would be illegal and unethical.""

Deep foundations are more expensive than a conventional shallow spread footing foundation so there is reason they are used. In the location in Florida of this condo, the unstable nature of the ground would require the use of a deep foundation.

Structural design and load resolution can be accomplished in tons of different ways - all driven by site conditions, costs, engineering/contractor expertise, etc. JayZ is on the money.

All I know is when you have repair recommendations in excess of $10M......you have some problems.

waterproofing and sealants long past their service life, they opted for crack injections on the underside instead of removing the toppings and replacing the deck waterproofing, saved a bundle up front

The guy in video hits on a lot of interesting points, he's reviewed much of the documents pertaining this building and its history

tragic

Here's a link to an article on the condo collapse where I'm quoted in. I get to tear down buildings like this for a living, so I'm typically on the end that is trying to undo all the safety factors that engineers have designed into a building to make it collapse. I've been in so many buildings that look much worse than what I saw in the 2018 report, but as mentioned, things can deteriorate fast once started.

The eyewitness info about the pool deck slab came out after I was interviewed, but if it is true that the pool level slab collapsed first and that entire level was in disrepair, it could have continued to the slab under the tower. This would remove the lateral support of the columns under the first tower section that collapsed as it was just a flat slab construction without beams as I understand it. As JayZ mentioned, this would make the columns stand twice as tall as they were designed, not to mention whatever damage was done to them when the slabs collapsed. I'm sorta surprised that the tower wasn't a separate construction with a control joint separating the pool deck from the tower. This would've likely stopped the pool deck collapse from migrating into the tower section.

The portion of the building that is still standing appears to be much more reinforced with stair towers, shear walls, beams and bigger columns. That's likely the reason the entire structure didn't come down in a domino effect.

It's definitely a sad situation and it will take some time for an official report to be completed for sure.

We work with Morabito in the Baltimore area all the time, and they are known for being extremely conservative in design and structural review. Not sloppy at all.

The pool collapse is the key. None of the photos of cracks and rebar were taking that building down for another decade at least....