Contributors to this thread:
Sign Of The Times
I just got back from MT earlier this week. I was there about 3 weeks and heard about this from some of the locals I spoke with (more than one). One day, I was in Lewistown talking to a long time local (since 1961), older lady. While talking to her, another lady in her early 60's joined the conversation. She was passing thru the area. The conversation turned to tourism and people relocating. I made a comment regarding what I felt were people coming (fleeing) from Cali, OR and Wash moving to MT and WY and overpaying for property and driving up prices and taxes. Of course the 2nd lady was from Cali and judging by what she was telling the local lady, she seemed of the left-leaning persuasion. I was a touch surprised she told the local lady Lewistown needed more diversity and take up green initiatives. I checked out of the conversation before I said something I might regret. After the 2nd lady went about her business, I went back to the local lady. She was funny in that she whispered she could tell that 2nd lady wasn't a Trumpy and hoped she wasn't moving to MT.
Fast forward to this afternoon.......I got the below in the inbox.
"""Californians are arriving in Montana in droves. But they're not welcome.
Tessa McLean, SFGATE July 22, 2021 Updated: July 22, 2021 11:46 a.m.
Sasha Vermel had been sewing face masks locked down in her Oakland home for months during the pandemic when her hands gave out. She realized she couldn’t even open a door anymore.
It was the last straw. She’d been out of work as a designer and seamstress since COVID-19 hit, she’d been home-schooling two kids for months and the 2020 wildfire season had been relentless. She went to her husband and asked if he wanted to fly to Missoula, Montana for the weekend and look at houses.
That was in September 2020. By Thanksgiving, they had moved there, joining the thousands of people who have relocated from California to Montana in the past two years.
While the move was abrupt, Vermel and her husband had thought about leaving the Bay Area for years. She said they would often do “real estate tourism” on Zillow and browse houses in other cities they might move to. They considered Asheville, North Carolina, but there wasn’t much of a tech community there, something her husband was looking for. They also thought about Austin, but quickly realized it wasn’t quite as affordable as it once was, and it wasn’t going to be a big enough improvement in their living situation. They’d almost settled on Ashland, Oregon when the 2020 fire season hit, making the West Coast seem like a less desirable option.
Vermel is from Montana and still has lots of family there, so once they made the choice, the transition was fairly easy. They were able to sell their Oakland home and get a much larger property in Missoula, the second-largest city in the state. “Being able to sell a Bay Area home meant that we could have a lot more,” she said. “We went from 1,600 square feet with houses packed around us to 180-degree mountain views.”
But even though they’d found a great home, the real-estate transaction felt contentious and difficult — until the seller found out that Vermel “wasn’t really from California.” The median home price in Missoula has increased 20.5% in the past year, and according to a study conducted by MSU Billings, 75% of real estate agents surveyed saw interested buyers from California.
Many native Montana residents aren’t happy with the amount of out-of-state residents coming in and snapping up homes, and they’re not shy about saying so. Vermel says a friend was harassed at a gas station when she was filling up her car with California plates; Vermel's dad, who lives in town, has had to defend her right to move back to the state.
Still, this has happened before, Vermel pointed out. She remembers growing up and seeing anti-California bumper stickers in the late 1980s. She refuses to get discouraged. “This isn’t new. It's the same old pattern,” she said.
Lauren Craigie and her boyfriend, who moved to Bozeman in April 2020 and both work in tech, don’t say they moved from California when people ask. They mention the states where they grew up — Connecticut and Ohio respectively — and they changed their licenses right away. “Part of me is annoyed that [locals] even care. Why are they special for just being born here? Because I've lived in so many different places, I don't feel like a Californian. That was just part of my life,” Craigie said. “I think I'm still navigating the best way to handle that conversation.”
The couple had already planned to move from SoMa to Bozeman when the pandemic hit, hoping to take advantage of the city’s proximity to outdoor activities and lower cost of living. While they love the city, they said the transition wasn’t ideal, since it was hard to meet people during the pandemic. They wish they’d bought a house right away, instead of signing a lease to rent. In Bozeman, the median sales price of a home has increased 25%, and just a few months ago, they put an offer on a house, only to be immediately outbid by a cash offer. They have now decided to just wait it out another year.
“There’s a ton of anti-California sentiment in the area, especially from the all-cash buyers coming in...I do feel awful that if I do buy a home I’m taking it from like a teacher or a firefighter and some people can’t afford to live here anymore,” Craigie said. “I feel like I'm contributing to the problem, but I kind of felt that way in San Francisco too.”
While cost of living is typically a big driver for those leaving the Bay Area, Matthew Cooper wanted to move to a state with more right-leaning politics that matched his own. He’s a truck driver that lives in Sonoma County and doesn’t have much faith in where the country is headed. He wanted to find somewhere rural to live — he also considered Idaho — and learn to “live off the land.”
He’s already purchased 21 acres outside Helena, but he’s waiting to sell his Sonoma home until he figures out his work situation in Montana. In the meantime, he’s taken his family to visit, and they’re all excited about the move.
Cooper says that he’s also encountered people that are hostile toward another Californian moving in, but he deflects the conversation immediately. “I say yes, I’m from ‘Commiefornia,’ but don’t worry, I’m not bringing any of that crap up here. I’m escaping it. Then everything is fine. There is a lot of opposition to people bringing the politics from here to there.”
For Cooper, who has lived in Sonoma County most of his life, the only thing he’ll miss about Sonoma is the weather.
Former Marin county resident Megan Hansen moved to Bozeman, MT without having ever visited. Her interactions with locals have been mostly positive, she says. “When someone asks, you’re almost apologetic when you say you’re from California,” Hansen said. “...I do hope that the Californians coming here are figuring out how we can give back.”
Even in 2019, Carolyne Calvin, a realtor with Keller Williams Montana Realty, said 85% of her buyers were from out of state. Just in 2021 so far, Calvin said the market in and around Bozeman has been so frantic, she’s sold at least 12 homes sight unseen. Those moving from places like Texas, Seattle and the Bay Area know how hot the housing market is, and they don’t have time to come into town every time they want to see a property. She said that while it’s good for business and those that want to sell their home, she feels badly for local buyers that are getting priced out of the immediate market and have to go out to outlying areas.
As with most moves, there are trade offs for those migrating from the Bay Area. Vermel said she misses great restaurants, particularly Mexican food. But she loves that there are dozens of kids on her street the same age as her children and she doesn’t have to worry about them exploring the neighborhood on their own. What she misses most is the diversity in the Bay Area — the state of Montana is 88% white.
Lance Trebesch, CEO of Eventgroove, said diversity seems like it’s actually gotten slightly better since he moved to Bozeman 17 years ago from the Bay Area, but he believes the city and state still have a long way to go. Hopefully, the growing tech community, coupled with an emerging remote workforce, should help.
“People have figured out what a great place this is,” he said. “The level of outdoor activities is top notch. There’s an emerging tech cluster. The schools are excellent…it’s not perfect, but why not live in a place like this?”""
Regretfully, it's just the way life is now.
I remember what Austin, TX used to be like- but look at it now. The same holds true for many cities and parts of the U.S.
Times they are a changing !"
On the mountain lion guide's truck this January................
Why don't image tools work anymore?
There’s no doubt we’re being overran. Hell, even in our own state parks we’re made to feel like outcasts. Every day that passes makes me appreciate even more all the great years I was Blessed with “in the good ole days”.
If a person moves to a place and pretty much ignores or disrespects the culture of the place you moved to...... you should expect not to be made very welcome.
If you are bringing with you the very attitudes and actions that made where you moved from less desirable why SHOULD people welcome you?
A person is "free to move about the country". No one is obligated to welcome what they bring with them.
But no matter who they are and what baggage they come with...... I'm certain they will find a realtor who will be their best friend..... =D
Interesting concept, must get permission from the government to move away from one district and permission from the other district to move to.
Without the ok from both your staying put.
Well, the sprawl into farmlands, mountains, and woodlands will continue no matter how much one complains. The population is increasing, mobility is easier than ever, remote work is a powerful trend, crowding is unhealthy, high taxes cause dispersal, and we all know what has happened to most dem run cities. Social Science is an interesting field of study.
Isn’t it frustrating, They are smarter And more enlightened then most of us.
But don’t realize the cancer they were a part of and supported.
Then they try to bring the same cancerous policy’s with them. All the while thinking the locals are not educated or enlightened.
So then join local politics, and start to plant poisonous seed all over again
Just like the cancer cell itself doesn’t realize it’s a cancer cell
Iys ironic that people will flee from failed policy states but yet they bring the same mentality with them
That is ironic, how dumb can they be?
you can see Montana's future in Colorado's present.
With a thousand people moving to Texas every day, and many of them coming from blue states, I wonder just how long Texas will remain red. It’s already trending purple. I should have moved to Wyoming twenty years ago when I first considered it.
They go "out west" to get away from the very issues they want to push on other areas ..... """diversity seems like it’s actually gotten slightly better since he moved to Boseman"". Take your "diversity" and move back to California.
"Diversity" ........ what that really means is that even tho someone scores better on an interview/test for a job, because of "government mandated DIVERSITY" the job must go to a less qualified person ..... and I could care less about the color of your skin!
Although I'm from MN, I'm sick and tire of the "blue" policies set by Minneapolis / St. Paul. Unfortunately, I don't think this country isn't headed for better times. I think about that but don't dwell on it!
drycreek, Wyoming’s always been wonderful, but like most things anymore, every year we lose more and more of what we used to be. The NW corner of the state’s already blue and it’s only a matter of time till the rest of the state follows. Unfortunately, what kentuckbowhnter said about Montana holds true for Wyoming as well.
Californians need to stay in California. Idahoans dislike them hunting in their state so much, they discontinued OTC deer tags.
Wyobull, I suspected that. Unfortunately libs are gonna screw up the whole country with their failed policies. Textbook definition of insanity……
Yep^^^ to all the above. I live in Bozeman, MT. It ain’t what it used to be. I’m moving as soon as my kids finish school.
Dems are far and few between in my neck of the woods. There are still Trump signs out in peoples yard everywhere. I had a friend that voted for Trump in 16, then turned hard core dem after a couple years of Trump in office. About the same time his oldest son moved back from Portland. He got brainwashed by his son, then the MSM. A month or so ago, he stopped by and "defriended" me because I would not agree with him on politics. If that's how he acts then its no big loss to me, just sad they act that way. Their way or the highway.
Hell I’m in CA and can’t stand Californians…Especially from the Bay Area!
There are ways to deal with these people where they'll just leave.
I live in NE Nv. My wife sold real estate up until spring of this year. Nearly 50% of the houses sold in this area were to those fleeing the Socialist Republik of Kali. Many of them good, conservative people. Some just liberals escaping the societal disease they helped borne. Many out of staters come to work for the largest gold producers in North America. Jobs are plentiful but so is the crime that comes with it. Still pretty red here, but not so much in Reno and most definitely not Las Vegas.
Watching those house flipping shows my wife watches (barf), it is amazing what you can get for a tore-to-hell 3 br 2 bath home in the lower half of Kali. Sell that and buy a pretty damn nice place in one of the Rocky Mt. states, cash.
Lots of California plates on I80 heading east. SMH. Sad af.
Leftist always degrade the social fabric of a Community. They offer nothing of value morally or spiritually!
Same thing is happening in Florida too. Not only do we get them from California, but also from New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. Don't care as long as the lefties leave their leftist/socialist ideology behind. The real estate market is absolutely insane.
"Times are changing" because people are too chicken _ _ _ _ to do anything about it...
I spent 10 days in Montana at my buddies place in condon(swan valley) the small towns along that stretch were a blast. We went to kallispell one day and it was amazing the difference. Like walking into LA. Pretty much all the locals can’t stand the migration.
^.....I walked a property in Condon the other day.
I hope they are mostly conservatives fleeing their former states, but after seeing what happened to Colorado I'm not that optimistic. Look at Austin, that's where all the progressives go in Texas and it's changed dramatically in the last 10 years - not for the better.
It's happening to a much smaller degree in rural places too. I'm in SW Missouri, within 45 minutes of 2 different towns of 10k people with decent hospitals, and within 1 1/2 hours of KC, and within an hour of 4 different lakes, and we are getting Cali people moving in here.
^.....I walked a property in Condon the other day.
Hope u had bear spray. LOL
Florida has been an awesome place to live my whole life and especially with the way our governor has handled the last year and a half, but it is being overrun with people that don’t vote like what makes this state so great. 2022 is gonna be interesting.
A different experience here is my area of west central Wisconsin. The people moving into our area, or purchasing the land are the ones willing to do what's best for the land, community, hunting and habitat. They come from Chicago, Minneapolis, Milwaukee, La Crosse. I am a part time local, born and raised, army, college, moved back home, moved 1.5 hours away where I live now. I split my time, 25% or more on the farm. My mom lives on the farm her grandma settled. So, I'm not sure what I am. Anyway, when the wind turbine folks showed up, the locals (not us) signed away, when I started a DMAP Cooperative, the non-locals signed up as well as when I stated a QDM Cooperative. When there are workshops, field days, property tours put on by conservation groups, it's most the non-locals that attend. It's the non-locals that pushed for zoning to control unregulated growth. I could go on. Of course, there are local people very much doing the same things, but not at the same percentage as the non locals. One last thing, I have no idea if they are conservative or liberal, Trumpers or Bidenestas, I really don't care and they really don't care what I am. BC
There is nothing new here, urban shifts and flight have been a decades old movement. The loss of the traditional rural culture of farming, ranching, hard work, neighbor support and hunting and trapping is the most concerning. Cannot blame that one on the newcomers, the farmers and ranchers are the ones that left for an easier life. They sold there land to developers or consolidated with larger farmers. Oftentimes there is more money in land than crops and livestock. Nobody to blame, simply shifting values and a continuing trend away from understanding hunting and trapping.
Bow Crazy, I have seen that activity from nonlocals moving in. Be careful it may be more of the "I'm here now, eff everyone else, it is all mine."
PECO, it could happen I suppose, but I just don't see it. I started to reach out to the non locals in 2014 and most, if not all, just want to get along. They all seem to be moving here, or buying land here, to get away from the stress, the hassle of city living. They are open to change, new ideas, new ways of doing things and really seem to want to do what best for wildlife and the wood lands. Anyway, that is my experience and maybe our area lucked out, who knows. BC
"I hope they are mostly conservatives fleeing their former states, but after seeing what happened to Colorado I'm not that optimistic."
It's happened to NM Pat. NM is plagued with dumbass liberalism and is beginning to make CO look like it doesn't know what it's doing...
They just dont get it..the square wheel policies just dont work
I live in what used to be a farming community in Central Arizona. It is now the second fastest growing city in the United States. The people that move in here are a completely different type of people. It has become the armpit of the US in my opinion. The rural/country train of thought is nearly extinct and has been replaced by liberal urbanites. I can’t wait to get out of here. common courtesy is long gone and rudeness and a me first attitude are the norm.
been witnessing it for decades, hoping the latest surge brings sensible folks to the less populated areas, the bigger cities are just too far gone
I have a hard time seeing how our country will not continue to go towards liberalism/socialism. For every conservative they alienate - they garner about 4 votes as they continue to buy votes with helicopter money taken from the few and given to many. They push the debt down the road for someone else to deal with. If I was on the receiving end I might have a different viewpoint. How does a conservative compete with the buying of votes and anybody who has anything is the evil enemy?
Mark must not got one of those Trump checks. I’m pretty sure the checks had a Donald J Trump autograph. The largest single socialism spend in U.S. history. Maybe you missed it?
I wonder who was the last president with a deficit in the black? Or which president has the largest deficit in U.S. history?
Democrats and Republicans both have squandered our money and trampled on our rights. Im not sure if enough people in the US really want real freedom. We have a choice between Marxism and Socialism..neither one good but one is worse than the other
Most people in the US want to be controlled and told what they can and cannot do, they are weak. As a nation, we have lost our will and desire for personal freedom and responsibility, responsibility even for our own actions.
The times they are a changing…..
A conservative Californian is still a liberal Wyomingite...
Missourbreaks: "Most people in the US want to be controlled and told what they can and cannot do, they are weak. As a nation, we have lost our will and desire for personal freedom and responsibility, responsibility even for our own actions."
This sums up the whole problem we have in the US in a nutshell. I dont think enoigh people want pr realize what real freedom means anymore
" I dont think enoigh people want pr realize what real freedom means anymore "
If you mean that too many people confuse freedom with the 'right to be ignorant, self-centered, biased and intolerant' then, yeah.
Ignorance is a lack of knowledge , I don’t think it’s a “right”, it just “is”. I’m sure you know what “is” is, or do you ? Self-centered to me means looking out for yourself and your family and friends, what’s wrong with that ? You damn sure were doing that when you voted for Biden. Biased ? You kidding ? Who’s not biased ? Intolerant ? You’re not intolerant of my views ? Ha ! You are full of it Dana !
Danac. I mean not enough people want to be free of government regulations, taxation, entitlements, Social Security (legalized extortion), free from the government dictatining who gets to keep more or less of their money, government confiscation of their property, seizure of land in the name of endangered species, government extortion of their money and redistributed to other citizens, the government dictating what you can put in your own body, most of all...the government ignoring the constitution or going around the constitution by way of executive orders, judges ruling as if they were Gods, ..thats what I mean by not enough people want real freedom
Don, WHAT makes you think I voted for Biden? Yeah, he was the lesser of evils imo, but I abstained. I don't even know what your views are, but if you express them, and I find them bigoted or stupid, I will dam' sure call you on it. Because while you absolutely have the right to express your views, I absolutely have the right to call bs on them if I disagree. Freedom is a 2-way street.
Dana is still wandering around aimlessly, mumbling, "Orange man bad!" I just wonder how many illegal aliens he has living in his house? You know, since he is so non-biased, self-less, and tolerant.
Dana.....at that time in history you felt Biden was the lessor of two evils. Now having the luxury of seeing Prez Biden as a Prez, if you knew back then what you know now, would that have swayed your opinion on election day either way?
Democrats n Republicans both have violated our constitutional rights..Biden and his cronies are NOT liberals, they are Marxist. It is clear to me which party is the lesser of 2 evils. A choice between Socialist and Marxist..neither one is good but one is worse than the other. It amazes me folks that will vote for their own demise though
IL, Biden is marginal. Trump was and remains a criminal egomaniac imo. We'll see him in manacles before it's all over. But I'd still stay home rather than vote for either.
70, I despise Trump so I must be pro-illegal-immigrant, is that your position? Must be nice to live in a completely either-or world. (Actually you sound like I did back around 1980 when all I read was Ayn Rand ;-) )
I support people's right to vote for whomever they choose. But, for anyone that likes to hunt, own firearms, I cant concieve why they would vote for someone that desires to take away those rights..yes, the 2A gives us the right to keep n bare arms. Trump wasnnot perfect but at least he loves his country and didnt pander to the knee jerk leftist con artist in the media
You will see a lot more inflation and hidden taxes, somebody has to pay for all the increased production costs. Generally that comes from the consumer, whether they realize it, or not.
Exactly Missouribreaks! Amazing the people that dont realize that though
Exactly Missouribreaks! Amazing the people that dont realize that though
No people who lost their character kept their liberties. - Laurence W. Reed, President of The Foundation For Economic Education, author
"What those Founders were getting at is the notion that liberty is built upon the ability of a society to govern itself, without government intervention. This ability to self-govern is itself built upon—you guessed it—individual character."
So how are you doing?
Doing fine, shot 3-D and I think there were 11 of us with assorted wheel-less bows ;-)
“Biden is marginal” What a laugh if it wasn’t so pathetic. He’s a fool and a puppet who has nothing, absolutely nothing, to recommend him for the presidency. He wasn’t even a good senator. He’s been nothing except a drag and a liability on this country for damn near 50 years.
But he didn’t send mean tweets ! ;-)
Biden is a great president if you are a Marxist supporter
Biden got us out of Afghanistan,which neither Obama nor Trump could do. Drycreek, he was one of *many* in Congress who live as proof that we need term limits. 3 terms, then go find an honest living.
Dana, this is boring, but we were down to nearly nothing in Afghanistan when Biden came on board. Incidentally, I don’t think ANY president handled that war well because the Taliban is probably stronger than ever now. All they did was get our soldiers killed and maimed and changed nothing. So I f you want to credit Joe Blow with “getting us out” knock yourself out. They say Mussolini made the trains run on time too. Big whoop !
"Biden got us out of Afghanistan"
pretty sure kamala (comma-law) did that, she is an amazing leader and brilliant military strategist
i think she'll be president some day
Trump had set a timeline of Sept 21 2021 for troop withdraw from Afghanistan, Xiden moved the timeline up a bit.
Don't let your narrative get in the way of da facts.
Liberals have nothing to offer America. They need to leave the country. Period
" I don’t think ANY president handled that war well because the Taliban is probably stronger than ever now."
On that we agree.
It absolutely terrifies me that Pres. Biden came out and said it was unconstitutional for him to do anything about the eviction order expiring and then he had the CDC issue the unconstitutional order. My wife being from Venezuela saw this before with Hugo Chavez. Same with the border, we are being invaded and I can tell you first hand the people that emigrated to the US legally do not support illegal immigration by a large majority.
Pandering for support and party votes.
Mint, if I immigrated legally to the US I would really be upset. Illegal immigration is a slap in the face to the folks that immigrated legally
Prez Trump was correct in his description of then Prez candidate Biden during the debates........