For folks who have an opinion either way on the effectiveness of the face masks, here's a new study that actually looked at the effectiveness of the different masks. Tucker Carlson was talking about this. Even those N95 series masks were shown to be only partially effective...60% at best. I've long contended that masks give folks a false sense of protection. I believe the particles that stick to any mask and then transferred to the wearer's hands is what provides the greatest vehicle to transmission. Anywho....this is a pretty good study. There is more to the article...I just pasted the meat and potatoes.
"The latest research on the matter, published in the journal Physics of Fluids on July 21, comes from the University of Waterloo in Canada. To test their effectiveness, a team of researchers simulated breathing using CPR mannequins in a large, unventilated room while wearing different types of masks, including three-ply cloth masks, surgical masks, N95 masks, and KN95 masks.
Results found that commonly worn cloth masks and basic surgical masks were only capable of filtering exhaled particles "at apparent efficiencies of only 12.4 percent and 9.8 percent, respectively." On the other hand, results also found that N95 and KN95 masks saw "substantially higher apparent filtration efficiencies" of 60 percent and 46 percent, respectively. This led the study's authors to conclude that the two premium masks "are still the recommended choice in mitigating airborne disease transmission indoors."
The team believes that the poor fit of most cloth and surgical masks is to blame for the major decrease in filtration capabilities. Photographic evidence from the study showed that spaces between the face and PPE allow particles to escape into the ambient air, most often redirecting particles out the top of the mask over where it touches the nose."
Of course. Nothing new here. We all know masks, even good ones, are less effective at protecting YOU. But if you are wearing one it protects ME quite well! Thank you. And hey now, If we’re both wearing one, a good one especially, it protects us both really well! Yes, this has been shown. With science, and data. A good friend of mine is a phd physicist in nanoparticles. She is engaged in a mask study at one of the most prominent research labs (maybe you’ve heard of Jonas Salk?) in the country. Their findings show that masks are 90%+ effective at stopping transmission if both parties are wearing one (surgical mask for basis of this study). 60%+ effective if the infected person alone is wearing one. And 20%ish effective if only the non infected person is wearing one. So one can see, at least in my eyes, what makes masks effective. And it proves they are effective if everyone wears one. And these numbers go up, with better quality respirator masks. But still the debate marches on because no one cares about protecting the other guy or gal, we care about our own freedom. This isn’t rocket science people! So if you expect results from masking we all need to wear them, but we’ve been there before and know that’s never gonna happen. That ship has sailed. Too many tough guys out there who can’t be inconvenienced. Sadly, they place their own personal “freedom” over public health so this disease continues to persist, mutate, get around vaccines, keep kids out of school and we all get to experience less freedom as a result. Wonderful isn’t it? Yet the anti maskers seem incapable of seeing the vicious circle they’re perpetuating. All in the name of freedom!
Sorry, I’ll probably regret this post, but it’s a sore subject with me. Having an immuno compromised young daughter will change one’s perspective. I’ll do anything and everything to protect her sweet little being, but I can’t control the other guy who is more concerned about his “freedom”.
And I say all this still as a staunch Republican. Not sure why that matters, but for some ridiculous reason BS politics enters into the fabric of every Covid conversation. I don’t even support mandates. I just wish people would do the right thing voluntarily, for the benefit of mankind. I know, wishful thinking. I only mention politics before someone brands me a libtard, or calls me sheep, or some other disparaging remark because I care about the health of my family, the health of society and just want to get back to normal ASAP.
Nothings changed. This isn’t new news to anyone concerned with getting it right versus just getting the last word. There’s been a lot of non Faucci equals saying the same thing for quite a while. But, it doesn’t fit the popular narrative to point that out. As this thread attests to.
Get busy living. Time is ticking. And, at this point the whole world has missed out on living due to faithless fear and, the idea we are in control of the events of our life. Not to mention the bloated bs that wearing a mask saves others. Are you dumb? The negative effects of a mask applies the same no matter the reason for wearing it. So, the other guy you are supposedly protecting is wearing that big germ catcher. Why? To make you feel better. Good grief there really are some stupid people in this world.
Claim all you want about it stopping the spread or, it’s important for your fellow men. But, it doesn’t change the reality of the guy standing next to wearing that huge germ catcher on his face. Does that not apply? Only if you are ignorant of reality.
It’s getting to the point that nothing matters except you do what you are told. Because it makes others feel better about their chances.
I can’t believe that masks are good for anyone to wear 8/10 hrs. a day. I wear one when I go to the Dr. , otherwise I’m not gonna wear one. I’m damn near a hermit anyway having had covid and both shots and still suffered from post covid symptoms since Christmas. I’m getting better every day now after taking a ten day regimen of IVERMECTIN and a couple other meds that no local Dr. would prescribe. So, you see, I just don’t believe most doctors when it comes to covid and I don’t think they know much more than I do about it.
“We all know masks, even good ones, are less effective at protecting YOU. But if you are wearing one it protects ME quite well! Thank you. And hey now, If we’re both wearing one, a good one, it protects us both really well!”
Do you even realize how ridiculous that comment is? And no basis in science…at all! If wearing a mask doesn’t protect You, and it doesn’t protect the other guy because he’s a “You” too then how can it suddenly protect “ME”?
Geez, after 18 months of this Covid crap there are still some on this site that think they might change someone else’s mind regarding masks and vaccination by posting their “facts”, going on a rant or expressing their opinion in a logical manner.
“Anyone with such a defiling disease must wear torn clothes, let their hair be unkempt, cover the lower part of their face and cry out, ‘Unclean! Unclean!’ 46 As long as they have the disease they remain unclean. They must live alone; they must live outside the camp."
Social distancing and mask wearing 2,500 years ago. Shit's so old it's Biblical. Literally.
Hand washing, social distancing, and mask wearing…basic tenants of infection control. Even without the vaccine it can “help” keep you safe. Down here in South Georgia this delta variant is raising Hell. Roll the dice. It’s your choice either way.
It is amazing to me that there are still people who think political will can trump biology.
And for the person who posted "there aren’t any studies showing that you are protected by someone else wearing a mask", attached is a link to an article dated 7/29/21 on a Mayo Clinic study that indicates otherwise. Took me almost 10 seconds to find it, yet somehow 18 months after the start of the pandemic this is news to some. Willful ignorance....
"Mayo Clinic researchers recently published a study that shows the proper use of masks reduces the spread of respiratory droplets. The findings strongly support the protective value and effectiveness of widespread mask use and maintaining physical distance in reducing the spread of COVID-19."
Attempting to put this in historical context. Before (and after!) this China virus, there were/are other airborne viruses that kill many people every year. We have the annual flu season deaths the CDC tracks as a good example. If we look at it from that perspective, we're all a little late to the mask game.
Just need the Bible. And your immunity. And some extra savings built up as some employers are increasing your monthly health insurance by $200 when no vax. And, some insurance companies are denying claims for Covid when no vax so may need a few $100,000 to pay off the ICU and ECMO and plane ride to another state to find a bed but we all got that laying around not needed for retirement or anything, right? Heck, never wanted to work for military or hospital of Feds or high-tech companies. I got my Uber driving gig to set me up for life. Anyway now am going to see this start to really pay off! Stay strong and don't fall for the vax in the way all living former Presidents, current Governors and 98% of medical doctors. Why do those sheep know that I don't with my schooling and advance driving certificate? You keep strong and stay on the side of 98% of the deceased this summer. Freedom!
No Links to any studies to make my point, no political or social agenda. Like many I watched all the Covid BS with great skepticism and was nervous about the Vaccines. After being hospitalized with Covid last November and out of wok 6;weeks I had 90 days before I could get the vaccine. Didn’t take me long to get convinced and get it
I’ve read many comments here and elsewhere , lots of conflicting “studies” and agendas Please me tell you what I see with my own eyes every day I live in the Deep South where vaccination rates are the lowest in the country. I Am sick of seeing people I KNOW put in the ground, especially the young ones. All unvaccinated. The hospitals are full with mostly unvaccinated at a rate that far exceeds the local percentage of the vax/unvaxxed. Many have told me they weren’t getting the vaccine and are now in the hospital or have been recently. All elective surgeries are on hold The unvaxxed die at a much higher rate and get far sicker even when they don’t die. Hundreds of thousands have died from the China virus in the US , very few from the vaccine complications . None that I know. I am a surgeon in a large practice that sees thousands of patients a year and all 22 of us see the same thing and are all vaccinated. Talked to my pulmonologist and our local infectious disease guys who are truly on the front line. They saw the dramatic drop in cases with the advent of the vaccine and the incredible rise when people stopped getting them. They are exhausted and they hate to see people die, it’s not politics or conspiracy or a desire to take away freedoms On masks- they appear to work to a reasonable degree but vaccines work better. I hate wearing a mask all day seeing patients but I do. If most were vaccinated it probably wouldn’t be necessary. The history of vaccines in this country is not perfect but hey have saved millions from diseases like polio and smallpox. Can I promise there will be no late side effects from the vaccines. No, but it is unlikely and I can promise some pretty serious and immediate side effects from our little Chinese friend ( death is a pretty serious one) Also, Just think how you would feel if you rolled into the operating room and your surgeon said he and his team didn’t think masks were necessary for your heart/ knee/ gallbladder or lung surgery. I don’t know a single person on this thread but cannot believe those who trash others’ thoughtful, reasoned posts ( like SDHNTR post). Please notice his disappointed response to the hate but didn’t respond with hate
I disagree with may opinions here but respect your right to give them. I Do not respect the venom you direct at others in what should be a band of bow hunting brothers with a special bond
Soccern - you totally missed my point which really doesn’t surprise me. You brought up the Bible passage not me. And the passage you brought up shows that process for handling sick people with leprosy. The sick quarantine and the rest of the population stay away from them and live the normal life - pretty novel idea.
In other words - where in that passage does it have a HEALTHY person wearing a mask? You are actually proving your oppositions point by bringing up that passage. No moving the goal posts here
Old School, the 'symptoms' of leprosy are pretty obvious, where the early or mild but still contagious stages of flu, Covid etc. are not. If all sick people would stay home, fine. BUT, many can not afford to. No paid sick time from their jobs, just for instance.
Before I retired I could count on getting a cold every fall when the kids went back to school, infected each other, and then their parents would come in coughing and sneezing and hacking. Hated their sorry plague rat a$$es...
The N95 can only prevent particles that are .3 microns or larger from passing through. The "virus" is .16 microns, almost half the diameter. That being said, just as in most transmissions, it is from hands to mouth, hands to nose, hands to eyes. Wash you hands and live your life. The outer protective shell of the virus is a fatty acid, so with warm water and soap, it will destroy it and kill the virus. That is why sanitizer, Lysol, etc... is effective, all of the above dissolve and remove fat. The only truly effective masks are FIT tested respirators. They form a seal around your face that prevents any outside, infiltered air in. You cannot have the flu disappear by saying people are wearing masks, then in the same breath say that the covid numbers are rising because people aren't wearing masks. This is how We The People have been manipulated by using skewed science and erroneous data. If false positives, positive anti-bodies, and triple counted positives are used for the analysis, how can a true result be presented. Does anyone care if I have HIV, Tuberculosis, Hepatitis, SARS, MERS, H1N1? All are highly contagious and very deadly, yet you only care about COVID. Obesity and Diabetes kill more people in this country than COVID. Check the CDC website for the real numbers. The numbers that the MSM refuses to tell you. 6% of all deaths attributed to COVID were purely from COVID. The other 94% of the people that dies had 2.6 or between 2 and 3 other serious, underlying conditions. These included cardiac diseases, pulmonary diseases, auto immune disorders, diabetes, obesity, cancer, etc... If you were in hospice and there someone had COVID within that facility, your death was attributed to COVID. These are the reasons why I call it a SCAMdemic. Let's see Obama can have a 3 day party at 3 different venues with over 400 guests from all over the world, all without masks, but because they are all allegedly vaccinated, or according to the MSM, "sophisticated and vaccinated", it is all okay. I have no problem if you want to get vaccinated by 1 or all 3, and get the booster every 6 months, or if you want to burn your lawn everyday to kill all the bad bugaboos that lurk outside, just don't impose your fear unto me. Wake up sheeple, Lenin is knocking on your door.
The ignorance being displayed in this thread is very, very disappointing and is just plain sad to read. How anybody can read a post like the one from glidingindian or read the results of peer reviewed studies and then determine that masks and vaccines aren't the most effective tools against stopping Covid is just amazing.
Everybody grab a mask! Whatcha gonna do about those 2 mucus membranes sitting ABOVE your mask? I can see it now, everyone wearing N95 and safety goggles, or better yet packing around a PAPR - a Powered air purifying respirator. I have been vaxxed, but I really can't wait to catch the Rona or a variant so I can build up some REAL antibodies - and I am immuno suppressed myself!
I hate the F*** out of masks and wearing them. But my own personal experience is this, I haven't been sick from anything, cold, flu, covid, or whatever else, when I had to wear one. I wear one at work because the Gustapo that I work for requires it. But I don't wear one otherwise and am vaxxed. But look at Israel, ultra vaxxed and still high covid rates.
I could post several studies showing that the one noted is pretty lame. A big part being that it was looking at how breathing dolls push material through masks, but I digress. Ample human research appears to not matter from what I've read getting to the box I can type into.
There was a fun one from JAMA that fox news did a "review" of for about 15' the other night - but the news anchor or his writers didnt know how to read and misunderstood that in preventing flu (study happened to have been done on that) procedure masks were nearly as effective as N95's at preventing disease transmission in health care workers. The Fox guy noted they were not - he or his writers misunderstood (me being very charitable) that the info they quoted was suggesting no statistically significant difference between the two masks and wearer becoming sick NOT any issue related to transmission of disease without a mask. It was mask v mask, not mask v nothing... They should have read the study while paying attention or something... Then they would have learned that procedure masks and N95's reduced disease transmission about 90% (slightly less for procedure masks, slightly more for N95's).
I'll now be laughed at by most bowsiters and told to go shove my head in a microwave, or whatever. That's fine. Really is.
Rather than cherry picking what feels good look for consensus, and if you are doing that via the evidence (NOT NEWS ARTICLES), the worst you could say for masking at this point is that it makes your face hot.
Not going to read it. There are surveys that will tell you anything you want to hear about covid, and there are surveys that will tell you 180 degrees from any survey. I’m tired of it, and am living my life the way I want to.
Did the regional mask police dismiss this linked article? Or are they only applying their narrative?
The article doesn't say masks don't work. It says some work better. Did you even read the article or did you stop at the headline? This quote is literally pulled directly from the linked article and quoting the individual leading this study.
Ultimately, the research team concluded that a combination of improved ventilation systems and higher quality face masks could go a long way in slowing the spread of COVID-19. "There is no question it is beneficial to wear any face covering, both for protection in close proximity and at a distance in a room," Serhiy Yarusevych, PhD, a professor of mechanical and mechatronics engineering and the leader of the study, said in a statement. "However, there is a very serious difference in the effectiveness of different masks when it comes to controlling aerosols."
For someone who's called out my reading comprehension skills in the past, perhaps it's time to take a look in the mirror.
I think the root of the problem has nothing to do with masks. It is all in the messaging coming from the experts. I've heard it called edicts, demands, mandates, etc. If the messaging about masks and covid was given in a different tone in a bipartisan setting I think we all might be having a different conversation. Bring in whichever president, whichever agency and leaders from both parties and see them all nod together. Changing the message to something along the lines of:
"This is what we know and understand right now, and why we feel it's in the best interest to wear a mask because..."
When the information we had changed, it would be explained. "We've seen results and some preliminary studies show that children under X should not wear a mask because..."
"What we now believe is that vaccinated people don't have to wear a mask because they can't get or spread covid..."
"What we now know if that vaccinated people can still transmit covid so they should wear..."
Instead I feel like the news media has created such a hype in order to get viewers to turn in that it's causing people to be overly stressed and angry about all of this. It's to the point that no one believes what's being said because we haven't had anyone just stop and explain anything. Instead it's been crammed down everyone's throat through mandates and emotion and hysteria from the news.
Again, wrong. Do people not understand the science behind facial coverings or are they just confusing masks not being 100% effective vs. not working at all? Because they certainly work when compared to no facial covering.
I like to use the following hypothetical...someone gets to piss on your leg. You have to choose how it's done amongst three options. (1) their willy is free and uncovered and your leg is exposed, (2) they have to cover their kibbles and bits with pants or shorts and your leg is still exposed, or (3) they cover their manhood and you get to wear pants.
Unless you're into that kind of thing (which I wouldn't put it past a few of you), there's a reason most people choose option 3. Masks work the same way.
The pathogens have already been shown to break through these cheap masks. It just depends who you talk to. The science is conflicting because of politics.. So If these masks are not 100%. Which they are not. Then its an epic fail and a waste of time. Thats my opinion. Given what this virus is capable of, right Your? Your opposed scientific facts are not 100% either because many "scientists or doctors" have come forward and shut down about their oppositions. That is a fact. So what do you mask wearers not understand? If you want a real mask that will protect. Strap up the N95. Or is a little bit of covid pathogens better than alot? I don't know that sort of logic?
There are a few topics within this discussion. The OP article was specific to the scientific tests to determine the efficiency of different types of masks or face coverings. The best of the N95 series were shown to be 60% efficient (effective?) in the tests. That means the best N95 mask demonstrated a 40% inefficiency in trapping or preventing the particles from the wearer's mouth or nose.
I feel masks can help the individual but they alone will not stop all airborne virus particles from getting behind the mask. That is why I feel they give folks a false sense of security.
I'm of the opinion AL Dente above identified the biggest source of virus transmission. I would add "hands to mask" to his list. If the masks filter the virus particles....your hands just picked them up when your touched you mask.
""That being said, just as in most transmissions, it is from hands to mouth, hands to nose, hands to eyes. Wash you hands and live your life""
I don't have a problem with the vaccines or someone who has the antibodies in there system. I think the floor on that is at what level of antibodies within a person is the minimum needed to be effective? I haven't seen that number mentioned yet.
As with the masks....I also think the vaccines and natural antibodies can also give a false sense of security or invincibility. It was in the news this week that actress Melissa Joan Hart who was vaccinated and a mask proponent got the virus. She thinks she got it from her kids. That would support the hand to mouth/nose/eye pathway from touching her kids or where they touched.
For my vaccinated self.....I clean my hands a lot when out and about. I wipe down the shopping carts and baskets I use at the Wallymartin. If I touch an entrance door or door knob, I'll grab a squirt of sanitizer and clean my hands. I keep some space between myself and others in the stores. Other than the occasional requirement to mask up, I go about my business as normal and try to keep things normal.
I also think the media does a disservice to the folks when they sensationalize or take out of context different aspects of the virus and prevention. They instill fear and push misinformation for their ratings.
Great post JL. That is an interesting study on the N95 if true. Really shows the efficiency of these cotton masks. Its bad enough that the majority of mask wearers do not even wear them properly to begin with.
Spike78, 110%!!!!! Unless the mask is fitted, it is just window dressing. I have been FIT tested several times over my career for lead abatement, asbestos abatement, etc... In every case, the mask must fit tight and no facial hair to ensure skin to mask contact.
Brotsky, what's the population density/square mile in SD versus the places where it's still a major problem? Here in Mass. we have one of the highest vaccination rates but in some areas very high population density, so still lots of cases. Comparing urban areas to rural is apples and oranges.
"...they just confusing masks not being 100% effective vs. not working at all?" Ding, ding, ding....
Cause everyone knows someone who has died in a car wreck wearing a seat belt. Illogical conclusion...seat belts do not work.
There is a slight difference, democrats didn't use car wrecks to change how votes are counted in this country to beat Trump.
My only issue at this point is I'm being told the vaccine is effective and I believe it is, yet I'm still being told to wear a mask because it protects others? I'm certain that by this time everyone who wants a vaccine has had ample opportunity to get one. I believe in personal responsibility. Choose to mask, vaccinate or whatever but don't expect me to protect you. It is easy for someone to call BS if you rant about the effectiveness of vaccines and then them to wear a mask even if you are vaccinated. If I need to wear a mask on top of the vaccine, what good is the vaccine?
There is a slight difference, democrats didn't use car wrecks to change how votes are counted in this country to beat Trump.
Cool. That has nothing to do with healthcare professionals saying that masks are good for you.
If I need to wear a mask on top of the vaccine, what good is the vaccine?
What good are anti-lock brakes and collision detection systems if I already have a seatbelt? In the midst of a public health emergency, why would we rely on the effectiveness of a single barrier that we know isn't 100% effective?
Al Dente is right on all accounts in both his posts as far as masks go. I want all of you to think about this just for a flippen second. The only remotely effective masks are the N-95's or the KN-95's to a lesser extent. I too have worked in industry that required "fitted masks" with rubber seals and they are probably the most effective and yet you see absolutely none of those in the public setting. To put it in practical terms that every one can understand- ask yourself this question? Does you underwear or even your underwear + your jeans STOP A FART???? I'll wait for a positive answer & guess what - fart molecules are larger than the virus. Live your life and forget the masks!!!! It all about politics and control!!!!!!
X master you can tell everyone the effectiveness of N95 and the effectiveness of those ridiculously laced up cotton face decorations to dana and bigeasygator, but to them. You and 98% of everyone on this forums page is just plain out uneducated and ignorant.
Cool. That has nothing to do with healthcare professionals saying that masks are good for you. It has everything to do with masks. Very few people trust that they are being told the truth.
What good are anti-lock brakes and collision detection systems if I already have a seatbelt? In the midst of a public health emergency, why would we rely on the effectiveness of a single barrier that we know isn't 100% effective? Why don't we double mask, triple mask or maybe even wear body condoms? It is a public emergency.
I have been saying for months. If the government was really trying to protect us and not control us. They would have had a big effort to get the N95 mask in to people hands. By now if they wanted they could of had a suitcase full of them on everyone's door step.
bigeasygator. 16 years in ER in direct patient care and I can tell you the masks do nothing more than catch snot. We all got covid wearing PPE and these worthless masks. In fact, I am my team are sitting around behind our desks at this very minute conversing with no masks on. We put them on for patient care simply because administration is down our throats if we do not. Only about 50% of us here today are vaccinated.
There was a video, during the SCAMdemic that an infectious disease doctor from Cornell hospital in NYC put up. He stressed the importance of... WASHING YOUR HANDS. He explains, as we all should know, that most diseases are transmitted from hand to mouth, hand to nose, and hand to eye contact. He said that after his shift in the COVID ward, he goes home to his wife and kids every night and everyone is safe, why, because he is diligent in washing his hands, and NOT touching his face randomly. It is not PPE (Personal Protective Equipment), it is common sense hygiene
When I look at people wearing masks and see the fit I don't see how they can work, to many air gaps. I also like the moving average graphs on the John Hopkins site and comparing them to when mask mandates were implemented to flatten the curve. The slope of the graphs kept going up with no change in slope which tells me masks have little to no effect.
Here is a good resource for what we know and don't know. https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data
I think it’s already been explained. Good hygiene and, not touching their masks and eyes. Like most everyone does when they wear a mask. Constantly fooling with it. But, don’t let common sense get in the way of your point. And, don’t let the “outliers” fool you.
I set at home with my wife for 9 days in a row. In the same rooms, without a mask when I had Covid. She never caught it. She also never caught it when the prison she works at had 174 active cases. She is very diligent in washing her hands and taking vitamin D. And not touching her face in between doing so.
There is a correlation there. This isn’t a solitary or even rare occurrence among households. Good hygiene discipline and getting amped up on vitamins isn’t a new phenomenon. Albeit, a more taboo approach then what you and, those like you prescribe too. But, it works.
On that same note....I know of numerous instances where husband or wife gets Covid, is sick with symptoms, and the spouse sleeping in the same bed doesn't. For something that is so contagious, I dont understand this?
^^^^Bingo^^^^. But, we’ve been told about how it shows no favors. How if we get within 6 feet of someone who has it, we get it. How masks are the only thing to save us. Minus the vaccine. Etc….
The simple truth is we knew so little about it when prescribing these actions. And, the results show. The terrible thing is s or rigid results are being dismissed for t by e good ideas we had about it in the beginning. SMH.
If you want to wear a mask fine. But this study suggests standard masks are only about 10% effective. What is the magic number that something should be deemed MANDATORY? What if a mask is only 5% effective? 15.7%? What if there isn't even any hard evidence, but it just seems like it's "better". Some of you are willing to roll over and do whatever people who are PROVEN TO BE LIARS tell you. Most of us aren't.
Here we go again, I’m falling for it and getting lured back in…. Last comment on the matter.
Why is it so hard to see that the salient point of masking has little to do with how effective they are at protecting the wearer? Yet that’s what people keep bringing up. From the standpoint of limiting the pandemic, protecting the wearer misses the point. Think beyond one’s self here please. What makes masks effective at slowing the pandemic (no, not perfect but still very meaningful statistically) is how they block transmission! They do a fine job of that! Which is why every public health agency, medical and nurse groups, the WHO and the CDC recommends them. Blocking transmission is what counts. The more people in a room wearing masks, the more transmission is quelled. Studies on the subject show a very clear consensus. They slow transmission. Period. Droplets and aerosols are not dispersed as far or in as great of number. Plain old common sense. It’s why we all cover our mouths when we sneeze. Exact same concept! And blocking transmission is precisely the viewpoint from which masking needs to be viewed, rather than how effective they are at protecting the only guy in the room wearing one. Which is why the whole “you do you and I’ll do me” argument doesn’t work if we all care about getting out of this mess. But I know, too pragmatic, so here we are.
I'm told vaccines work. I believe they do. I have been vaccinated. I have taken the step to protect myself and my family. My choice. Is it my obligation to protect others that choose not to vaccinate? The vast majority of these people don't expect me to wear a mask as they don't want to wear one themselves either? If you think that Covid might cause you serious harm..... vaccinate. If you think the vaccine is a bigger roll of the dice than Covid.....I support your right too.
SDHUNTER........A few thoughts on your post above.
I'm of the opinion while masks may have their place, I don't feel they are as effective as we're lead to believe. I'll take it a step farther and suggest if a mask is contaminated with virus droplets....it may be doing more harm than good the longer it is worn and touched. Especially if the wearer keeps putting his/her hands on the contaminated mask. A contaminated mask then becomes a vehicle for the virus transmission. Even though we might not be able to see these droplets with our eyes, if we're going to say the mask will stop them, then we have to say the mask will pass them on once it's contaminated. Maybe mask wearers should change out their masks more often. Much like an engine air filter...ya change it on a schedule basis. I think hand-washing and distancing is the best combo of things to protect each other.
If we continue to mandate mask wearing, at what point do we no longer need to wear them? Where is the finish line? Who draws the line and makes that decision? Once this China virus is no longer an issue, will the govt then want mandate mask wearing every flu season to protect people from dying of the flu? Can or would that ever happen?? I guess my point is ya have to be careful what ya wish/push for....and in this case....mandatory mask wearing.
JL, I appreciate your non combative responsive question. There is data on that. Surgical masks should be worn one time only. Regardless of length of time. N95s will actually have a rating on how long they should be worn before they lose filtration ability if you look up the manufacturer data.
Yes, hand washing and not touching the mask matters but like any other surface, touching stuff is not the primary means of infection. This is a respiratory virus primarily. You breathe it in. Fomite transmission is minimal at best.
Hmm, a guy gets on this thread and insults any and everyone with his mask protocol. Then dismisses the role a mask plays in the potential spread of this virus. Remember, it’s not about stopping the mask wearing person from getting the virus. It’s about stopping the mask wearer from spreading it.
Real life says unless you dispose of your mask every time you are finished, you potentially expose those to the virus if you have it. How many times do you touch that mask and then touch something untold numbers of people touch besides you?
How many are disposing and using new masks every time they interact with the public? How many pro maskers are washing their hands every single time they touch their mask. I’ll make it simple. Not one single person.
Life requires common sense. Life requires observation. And most of all, life requires people to practice what they preach. Non of that is happening as it is being portrayed here. That’s a simple fact.
And to top it off, you get people who accuse others of being combative when they point this out? You gotta be kidding me.
Life requires common sense. Life requires observation.
It sure does. And here is what the people who are literally paid to observe and understand these things say.
Researchers have found that 99% reduction in infectious SARS-CoV-2 on non-porous surfaces can occur within 3 days . In indoor settings, risks can be reduced by wearing masks (which reduces droplets that can be deposited on surfaces), routine cleaning, and consistent hand hygiene.
Conclusion People can be infected with SARS-CoV-2 through contact with surfaces. However, based on available epidemiological data and studies of environmental transmission factors, surface transmission is not the main route by which SARS-CoV-2 spreads, and the risk is considered to be low.
The principal mode by which people are infected with SARS-CoV-2 is through exposure to respiratory droplets carrying infectious virus. In most situations, cleaning surfaces using soap or detergent, and not disinfecting, is enough to reduce risk.
Again, I’ll pass on your “common sense,” Justin, and continue to listen to the people that actually do this for a living.
From the University of Minnesota Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy.
The guidelines from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) for face coverings initially did not have any citations for studies of cloth material efficiency or fit, but some references have been added since the guidelines were first posted. We reviewed these and found that many employ very crude, non-standardized methods (Anfinrud 2020, Davies 2013, Konda 2020, Aydin 2020, Ma 2020) or are not relevant to cloth face coverings because they evaluate respirators or surgical masks (Leung 2020, Johnson 2009, Green 2012).
The CDC failed to reference the National Academies of Sciences Rapid Expert Consultation on the Effectiveness of Fabric Masks for the COVID-19 Pandemic (NAS 2020), which concludes, “The evidence from…laboratory filtration studies suggests that such fabric masks may reduce the transmission of larger respiratory droplets. There is little evidence regarding the transmission of small aerosolized particulates of the size potentially exhaled by asymptomatic or presymptomatic individuals with COVID-19.” As well, the CDC neglected to mention a well-done study of cloth material filter performance by Rengasamy et al (2014), which we reviewed in our article.
“ From the standpoint of limiting the pandemic, protecting the wearer misses the point. Think beyond one’s self here please. What makes masks effective at slowing the pandemic (no, not perfect but still very meaningful statistically) is how they block transmission! They do a fine job of that! Which is why every public health agency, medical and nurse groups, the WHO and the CDC recommends them. Blocking transmission is what counts. ”
Utter nonsense. Do you even realize how stupid that is? It’s like saying yeah poison gas can still get in, but you won’t be exhaling it back out through the mask because it will block the exhaled poison.
I didn’t know mask had a one way value. But yeah what do I know I only have a Masters in Respiratory Therapy and worked in the field for over 14 years.
Basic common sense and hygiene. When sneezing or coughing, any civilized person is not going just sneeze outright or cough for that matter unless they're choking. Using a tissue, handkerchief to catch your snot, and coughing into the crook of your arm is common knowledge and courtesy waaaaay before the SCAMdemic. Whoever just sneezes into their mask is a slob and fooling themselves, thus rendering that mask useless.
I concur Rupe. I've worked ER for 16 years. We all got covid last year wearing these worthless things. I view them simply as a formality, to keep admin from breathing down our necks, and they make the patient feel safer lol.
What BEG actually did. Stop reading at the part he could cherry pick to make his point valid.
No, it’s the whole freaking point. No one…NO ONE…said masks are 100% effective. Furthermore, it falls in the category of “duh” that some masks are more effective than others - that was the whole point of the study. But even the researchers say any mask is better than no mask, and that has been the point this whole time. We can start splitting hairs - is it 10% or 25% or 50%. What about the vaccine? Is it 90%, or 75%, or 50%?
Well, the reality is when you start layering these things they start adding up. There’s a reason we rely on MULTIPLE barriers when managing risk…it’s because none of them are perfect and even the ones that seem mostly ineffective still add layers of risk management that when you start totaling things up make a difference.
This is fundamental risk management. Research the bow tie model to risk management. If you truly want to contain a risk, you layer protection - both to prevent an event from happening, and also to mitigate the effects of the event once it does.
It’s why this refrain of “see, it’s not perfect” is truly so shortsighted.
I like this one too. For every one person that has some sort of “healthcare” background saying “masks don’t work” or “don’t get the vaccine,” there are literally ten saying the opposite. This is like a case study in confirmation bias.
Mask, no mask is not the issue. OSHA, NIOSH, et. al. don't even consider cloth facial coverings PPE much less a respirator. They are source protection, minimal at best. Need to consider the full hierarchy of controls. It an inverse pyramid. Herd immunity, vaccinations, avoidance at the top along with distancing, barriers, reducing group sizes, increasing ventilation, staying home if sick, respiratory hygiene and hand washing towards the bottom, way below that is facial coverings. It is and never has been the sole remedy. Use all of your arrows in the quiver people.
One of the biggest problems we have in this country is the fact that we have a lot of sheepel ..thats obvious by the way they vote. Mask probably help to a degree, catching some fluids, but plain old common sense tells you they wont stop Covid from spreading. But then again common sense dont come into play in today's world, thats obvious when you look at the White House and the media
Did anyone care about masks or vaccines prior to this? We have had multiple instances where the MSM attempted to push a fear agenda. SARS, MERS, H1N1, between 2 and 4 strains of flu every year, all corona viruses, all airborne pathogens, yet no hysteria. And BTW, does anyone care to ask me if I have HIV, Tuberculosis, Hepatitis, etc..., The answer is no, only if I have been vaccinated or been tested for COVID-19. All are also very deadly and have killed millions across the globe, yet the only focus is on a virus that has a 99.7 survival rate.
"Great thread/post and conversation about bow hunting."
RIT - the title wasn't misleading. You didn't have to click on it. You didn't have to read it.
However, your desire to be hall monitor and control other people's actions is exemplary of those who demand that ALL subjects MUST wear behavioral control devices and receive the indoctrination inoculations. How enlightening to see default human behavior desiring to wield power over others.
/golf clap Hackbow. I didn’t read most of it so rest easy. I don’t really monitor bowsite all that much anymore. I have to be really bored with some downtime at work. Must be all the political and vaccination trash that is allowed to go on nowadays.
I don’t wear a mask and I am not vaccinated. Hopefully that doesn’t muddy your passive aggressive snide remarks.
The thing about face coverings is this: you constantly have your hands around your face. You are going into public areas, you’re touching surfaces, adjusting the mask. Most people don’t change or wash them. I rarely wear one and haven’t at all in the last couple of months. I have been tested 4 times, been negative, and never been sick with this crap, yet every single person I know that has had it has had to wear those things for one reason or another.
With regards to vaccines, get them if you want or have to in many cases. That said, I would like to see some studies on those that may have a natural immunity to these kind of things. My research leads me to believe that though these experimental jabs may help, they do compromise some of our natural resistances to COVID-19 types of illnesses as well as some others, like flus and colds.
Eat healthy, watch your weight if possible, exercise. Obviously if you have health issues, ramp up your protection. Employ the hygiene practices you should have been taught when you were 3 or 4 years old.
Please don’t ask me if I have or have not been vaccinated. None of your gd business. If you can still spread that shit after you’ve been vaccinated (and yes, IAW with the CDC you can) then I guess it really doesn’t matter if I have been or not, does it?
I have a wife & Daughter that are Nurses (long time) They see first hand ratios for our community population on Covid cases. Roughly 70 patients per day x 7 days (490 total) Currently averaging about 5 per week Covid positive..(walk in clinic) . Yes, they agree it is very contagious but feel the "news media" blows it out of praportion. Yes, we know several that have had it & a couple very sick but not hospitalized. Yes, we know of 1 case hospitalized, very sick but recovered. Yes, we know of TWO vacinated that got it again but not very serious. Yes, we know 2 that had it & got it again but not very serious. Yes, we know of deaths & they "all" so far had other serious health problems b/4. We are vacinated & yes, follow what ever guidelines a business or whatever requires. Personally, I am not to worried about it & actually less than the Flu. I (ME) feel it is more contagious but less deadly than the Flu. I know I have been to many outdoor events in Ill. & Ia. (in the last 3 weeks) & no one seemed to worried about distancing & or a mask (count them in the photos)
RIT - thought my remarks were blatantly snide and not passive aggressive at all. My typical arguments are against those that want to tell others what to do, how to live, etc. You went to all the trouble of opening a thread that you didn't approve of, just to make your own snide remark about the site (private) and what is allowed (by private site owner). Really don't care whether you wear face diapers or get jabbed...that's your choice.
“ The phrase “science is settled” is basically an appeal to authority. Which is a very common logical fallacy. It is a phrase used to marginalize someone who disagrees without having to consider any evidence they have to offer. It is often what we do when we don’t have knowledge ourselves, and are too lazy to look into it. It’s use is the exact opposite of science.”
What kind of masks were they doing the study on, N95? The vast majority of masks are just a piece of cloth.
Seems to me that what this all boils down to is the question of whether or not it is worthwhile to take reasonable precautions for the greater good. And evidently it has become wildly popular to say that no, it is not.
Evidently, wearing a mask that might be effective 10% of the time in preventing disease transmission is just too damn much to ask of a person. Wearing a mask that is effective 50% of the time in putting your fellow man’s mind more at ease is simply too great a burden.
So I gurss there’s a loophole in that old bit about loving the neighbor as thyself which exempts us from giving a shit about how our actions and choices might affect people whose views differ from our own. “Love your Enemy”? Yeah, that was about something else.
No, it has not been demonstrated that masks are a magic bullet. But even the studies which don’t find MUCH benefit, do find some.
If you were in a situation where you KNEW that putting on a mask would keep another person alive and well, you’d put it on, wouldn’t you? So if wearing a mask when you go out will spare 1 person (out of a thousand you interact with) from being hospitalized and either compromised for life or dying outright…. Why aren't you wearing one???
I don’t wear a mask outside. I don’t wear one in the car (because SERIOUSLY???). But I read people pretty well in person, and I have seen many times how much more other people relax when they see that I’m masked up. Even people not wearing one.
So even though I don’t really like wearing one, I do it as a kindness to others. Not because I think I’m being heroic, but because I choose not to be a prick.
If you're susceptible to infection, and you're counting on your fellow man to protect you; you have a lot more faith in others than I do. Take care of yourself like we used to do, and quit blaming others for feeding your fear.
GF: "So even though I don’t really like riding a scooter instead of driving a real vehicle, I do it as a kindness to others. Not because I think I’m being heroic, but because I choose not to be a prick."
Tidied up your quote for you. Don't humble virtue signal, man....yell it from the mountaintops....you're a full blown hero!
If you can smell smoke through your mask, it isn't working. Period. The virus is smaller than smoke particles. I led a fire brigade for many years. We had to be fit tested with our masks monthly. No facial hair was a must. Had to shave daily. We would put on our masks and go into a gas filled room for a few minutes. There was an indicator in the mask hose that would change color if the mask wasn't fitted properly. If you have been vaccinated and are wearing a mask, why worry about someone that isn't wearing a mask?
Science? You mean that "science" that has flipped every few weeks and not so much as "Sorry, I got that one wrong..." Studies? We have REAL WORLD data compiled from millions and millions for over a year and a half. There are stacks of data and stats from across the country from a wide variety of shutdowns and mandates, rules and regulations in a wide variety of conditions..... should be very clear what the death rates are with a given action and Show Me evidence that this mandate or that restriction was a marked improvement over others with different actions taken in similar populations and environments. Again.... it should be a CLEARLY better fatality rate if one action or another prevented it. Not "we did this study and that study in a lab...." We don't live in labs. Again..... we have a year and a half of Real World data. Not theories and hypothesis in labs. The vaccine isn't even the be all and end all it was recently touted to be "in clinical studies". Effectiveness rating/percentage has fallen through the floor. Data is coming out that herd immunity plays a much greater role. The "variant"??? My understanding is they have no testing out that defines or separates any variant.... fact is they don't know for sure. Nothing they want to share anyway.
I think if they HAD that proof and REAL WORLD definitive actions they could point to how this place or the other have beaten it in this year and a half..... we would be beaten over the head with it. Sure a hell of a lot longer beating than "2 weeks to flatten the curve".... if you still believe any of their lies and BS "for your own good" then might look a little deeper into who you're calling a fool. The Fausi God may likely be seeing perjury charges soon. He's a proven lying little weasel, along with the CDC witch. And the Chinese WHO? good grief....
Spot on BowenAero. For the "New World Order" salute and not even trying to hide it anymore. And some of you people TRUST these people with making decisions for you.... it's what every institution you have ever been in your entire life has trained you to do. Would fit well in Australia....
I lost a baby boy at 5 months. There are a lot of questions I ask myself. ..what would have made a difference. He would be 12 yrs old today. We dont live in a perfect world...for some people, they choose not to get vaccinated..should be our choice. Keep supporting these tyrants
I’m currently waiting on materials on 3 jobs. Not special order materials. Everyday type of stuff. Soffit, j channel, roofing, etc…. Some of this common stuff is 4 weeks past due with no idea from suppliers when they will be in.
This kinda of stuff is the new norm. It’s awesome too. To have that much money tied up and inaccessible. All due to the fear that individuals have and, insist on everyone having.
It’s not the unvaccinated causing the problems. It’s the people scared of contracting the virus that’s the problem. But, their paychecks are still coming. So, they are afforded that stupidity.
I don’t support tyrants. I support the constitution and it has the systems in place for us to figure out the balance of individual liberty vs the common good for all Americans. The constitution was specifically designed to prevent tyrants and I trust in it.
(those passing out regulations) Seem to say follow the science that fits "their" narative. I've been vacinated, I wear a mask "IF" where I go requires it otherwise "no". We have so many mixed messages I now plan on doing "only" what is required when I go someplace. I seem to be witnessing most people are less fearful & wanting to go about their own business as normal.. I have been to a whole bunch of outdoor events in Illinois & Iowa since spring. From 50-60 people to several hundred in close quarters (not practising social distancing or mask). All outdoors. No one seemed worried. Last night I was at an indoor school sport function in Illinois (mask inside required). I complied. During the game (1 hour plus) I looked around the stadium with probably 200 spectaters & another 60 athletes. In the spectators I rough estimate of 1/3 (at least) with their mask under their chin, not even over mouth or nose.. 5 of them were right in front of me... I know a couple that died from Covid (they said) BUT all had other serious underlying health problems. I know 3 that have had Covid & were very sick but recovered. I know 3 others that were told they had Covid & mildly sick. I know 2 that tested positive & down the road were said to have Covid a second time. 1 slightly sick & the other pretty sick. Wife is a long time Nurse & Daughter 15+ years. Both have worked Covid Clinics. Personally, I feel the FLU will kill you b/4 Covid. SCIENCE tells us less than 1% pass from Covid, right.. YES, it will happen but actually, as bowhunters we're probably at more risk when we walk into the woods to our stand... I mean hell, some critter may attack you, A tree could fall on you or you might slip & fall out of your stand caus you "didn't" hook your harness up.. Covid is not a joke BUT there are a heck of a lot more things in the world that will kill you faster. Without a mask I have been to resturants, Casinos, Dirt Bike races, Fair, Iowa sports school events, archery outdoor events, family gatherings, funerals. Where am I "required" to wear a mask. When I go to Dr., When I go to indoor "illinois" school events. I live on the Ill., Ia border & the rules are much more in "Illinois" but then Ill., is Screwed up big time anyway (my home state too)