Infrastructure Package Includes Vehicle
General Topic
Don't worry our "Hunters" here that supported and voted in this current administration will be along shortly to answer your question and remind us how much more intelligent they are than us knuckle draggers.
Biden and the Democrats are doing a better job of destroying America than any invasion from any foreign country could ever do.
They have not done one thing good for America nor the American citizens.
They have and continue to push the destruction of anything and everything that has made this country great.
Hard to believe we are witnessing the death of what was once the greatest nation in the history of mankind and the beacon of freedom for the world….
It could take the place of gasoline tax or be an additional tax. Guess which one it will be !
Biden administration may or may not implement this tax. Guess which one it will be !
Repubs, including McConnell voted for it. Well, imagine that !
Another jab to sell electric?
"Hard to believe we are witnessing the death of what was once the greatest nation in the history of mankind and the beacon of freedom for the world…."
Only if people stand by and let them. Who's ready to play hard ball?
bunch of cry babies on here, try being a real native american and hearing this crap everyday
All the articles I’ve read, state that the fee would be 0.08 cents a mile. That could get pricey real fast. It’s unimaginable to me. All of what this senile, halfwit has brought to the table, I think, is totally by design and coming from the people behind the scene who are actually calling the shots.
So... with the gps tracking to provide the needed mileage data as well as location and time to be able to demarcate whether the mileage is urban, suburban or rural and whether or not it is rush hour or off hour...
How long until your dash spits out tickets for speeding, improper lane changes without turn signals and language violations for swearing at traffic?
I can’t foresee any possible privacy issues or any potential for some third party to be hacked so that someone can have the ability to track you
Who would’ve thought that “Demolition Man” could one day be as prescient as Orwell’s 1984?
Lets not forget the $200 million for the P U Pelosi golf course. The current administration is lower than floating pond scum.
A "real" Native American? Explain what that means please...
KSPOS will be along shortly to straighten y'all out..
I’m gonna start driving in reverse :)
Hey now...that's what wire cutters are for!
Imagine the business you'd have if you're mechanical and you know how to disconnect all that government spy *hit!
I dont mean to be sarcastic but we have well over 50 yrs of leftist history to reflect back on. It should be common knowledge that leftist will always push for higher taxes, bigger government, less freedom and basicly anything contrary to the core principals of the constitution on the USA...and Im talkin about Democrat leftist and Neocon Republicrats.
HDE, I’d like to know too, what real Native American means? I think he meant was First Nations
tobywon, it didn’t work on the Ferrari for Ferris and Cameron
Driving backwards didn’t work for Ferris Bueller:)
To be clear, the infrastructure package does not include a mileage tax but rather funding for pilot studies to explore the feasibility of a implementing a mileage tax. On one hand, it would be good that EV's pay their fair share for road maintenance since many states fund this through a gas tax (which EV's do not use). Further, I am on board with charging mileage as a use fee (those who drive more pay more) - a consumption tax of sorts. On the other hand, if this represents an increase in taxes (not replacing existing gas taxes) or a mechanism to reduce/eliminate gas-powered vehicles, F--- them. I fear it is the latter as the $3.5B program has to get paid for some how.
I'm a Native American too. Born and raised in this country. The so called "First Nations" frauds who are claiming special rights slaughtered, raped, and enslaved the ones they called "Those who came before".
So is that $0.08/mile, or 0.08 cents/mile??
As one who endured a 1,000 gallon/year commute for over 15 years up until the lockdown started, I’m quite capable of doing the math on the difference in the location of that decimal point.
EVs need to pay the same for wear and tear on the road system. Or pretty nearly so. But we need data on net carbon emissions per mile for EV vs ICE before we can calculate how big a break EVs “deserve”…. Just because the car isn’t emitting doesn’t mean the power plant is carbon neutral, so the car ain’t either.
But letting Big Brother know where I am and how fast I’m going at all times? On the one hand, Hell, No. On the other hand, Siri and Waze and Google Maps and FB and the phone company and God-knows-who already do know, so what’s the diff?
I’m not saying that I want Uncle Sam watching my every move, but if you don’t think anybody already is, you’re fooling yourself.
Sorta like Obama’s point that if you built a business that could not function without publicly-funded infrastructure, you didn’t build that business without help. So yes, you do owe more for road maintenance than someone whose use of the road is not-for-profit, Otherwise, your business is being subsidized by all for the benefit of you and your customers.
And that ain’t right, either.
There are NO "indigenous" people in the America's. Anyone's lineage here migrated here. Some from Europe and some from Asia. Some from Africa and some from the Middle East.
Hey, I know it didn’t work to take miles off the car for Ferris, but did it actually add miles on that car? See, now I’m gonna have to experiment a bit….haha.
When I owned my own 18 wheelers 15 plus yrs a go, I payed $550 a yr per truck. Thats not including the road fuel tax. Just another leftist scam. Since my daughter is home schooled, I bet they would let me pay less school tax, since she is not utilizing the public school system...No, I dont think they will go for that. This is just another leftist scam to generate more revenue..thats what they do folks. Keep voting for these idiots and the the next thing you know none of this will matter because we will be paying 80% of our income in taxes anyway
Wow this is insane, there is no good angle to this, how Canadian of you guys.
Government owned GPS tracker in your vehicle, no comment
Somehow we were able to pay for the infrastructure until now, but maintenance and small additions suddenly need “more tax” for funding? Sounds like financial mismanagement, not shortage of funds.
We may or may not make it additional to tax on fuel. (I’ll take a guess) but if you don’t, this completely goes against their agenda of wanting to encourage electric. Instead of taxing fossil fuels, you are now taxing miles on the vehicle. Doesn’t make sense, unless of course there’s no plan to make it a trade off and it will just be an additional tax
Dumbest line in the whole bit “ If a vehicle miles tax replaces a gasoline tax, then drivers would be taxed based on how much they drive, rather than pay at the pump.” Haha what?? We’re people buying gasoline for fire starter or do most people use it to drive, I’m confused…
Your modern vehicle will not run with the GPS disabled. The computer will not put power to the fuel pump or ignition without everything in good working order. I "can" reflash the PCM and tell it I changed the tire size so the speedo recalibrates to show fewer miles on the odometer. However, the GPS will still show distance traveled. That information however is not wireless. One must plug into the car to retrieve it. Much like the "snapshot" devise from Progressive Insurance. Those can record distance, speeds, hard stops ect...
Only my wife's vehicle has an operational GPS. The rest of them are all old enough not to. Perks of being a mechanic and autobody guy. If this goes through, I am more than capable of building a brand new "old" vehicle. :)
If a vehicle miles tax replaces a gasoline tax, then drivers would be taxed based on how much they drive, rather than pay at the pump.” Haha what?? We’re people buying gasoline for fire starter or do most people use it to drive, I’m confused…
Not if you drive an EV, which was the point of the comment.
BEG, so they quit taxing fossil fuel and tax EVs equally? Right… my point was that none of it makes sense if you think about it
If everyone was complaining about the electrical grid last winter when it got so cold wait till they start plugging in all these EV's in the south during the heat of the summer with the A/C's running full blast. Freaking idiots...
A complete fleet of EV's for commercial and private use is NOT sustainable and don't believe any lies that they are.
Several states already have VMT programs of one form or another
Matt
BEG, so they quit taxing fossil fuel and tax EVs equally? Right… my point was that none of it makes sense if you think about it
That, I'm sure, is part of the conversation - ie, with the shift to EVs, how does the government raise funds to ensure streets, highways, interstates, and other infrastructure can be adequately maintained.
As Matt rightly pointed out, the only thing in the infrastructure bill is a study of the feasibility and potential outcomes of such a program. Whether this is in addition to or in lieu of a gas tax is unknown - whatever form it might take would need to be part of separate legislation.
Curious what about it doesn't make sense?
To me it's a fascinating problem - how do we continue to maintain our road infrastructure in the face of moving to EVs (or even just more fuel efficient vehicles), more remote working and working from home, etc? I've also always thought our road system was an interesting case study as well regarding public vs. private ownership. While in most cases I much prefer the free market to the government, I've always struggled trying to picture what a free market model for our road system would look like - at least one that I, as a consumer, could see preferring to the current model.
In my state of MA we already pay gas tax, highway tolls, and vehicle excise tax every year. We easily pay 50% of what we make in taxes and soon it will be 75%. If 18 wheelers are paying these mileage taxes now you have the companies raising cost of goods to pay for this so a double whammy to all us tax payers. It never ends.
Nowhere in any of these Biden /Dem tax increase bills does it ever show a negative/deduct figure for reduction of gasoline tax to be replaced by the vehicle mileage tax.
Nope, it's an added tax proposal without removal of the gasoline tax.
F those F'ers.
It’s because they are pushing electric vehicles that don’t use gas. So now we are forced to drive an EV that costs a lot of money and pay a mileage tax as well. I’m thinking democracy is slang for communism.
BEG .I use to drive on US Interstate Highways in the northeast and wonder why I had to pay a toll on a Federal Highway when I was already paying road fuel tax and tax at the pump. Yes, we have to have taxes to maintain highways but the problem is they dont need near the amount they extract. They simply squander it and then demand more. It happened a couple yrs ago in my state. Out of all the representatives in the Alabama state house, 1 Democrat and 1 Republican voted against it. When I was dating my wife she taught school at a public school, the state wanted to raise taxes for better upkeep of the school...4 yrs later...nothing changed to benefit the school buildings
Nope, it's an added tax proposal without removal of the gasoline tax.
As has been pointed out, it's purely a study of the effect of a potential tax. That potential tax would need to be passed under separate legislation. There are no details on what would be or wouldn't be included in any future legislation at this point.
Yes, we have to have taxes to maintain highways but the problem is they dont need near the amount they extract.
Can you elaborate on this? How do you know they don't need near the amount they collect? All the data points to us not collecting near enough to maintain our road system. At the Federal level, we have to dip into the general fund to close the gap - and even with that extra infusion, there are still areas where our road infrastructure is suffering. And thanks to the forces I've mentioned earlier, it's a situation that's likely only getting worse. What's the fix?
The Federal fuel tax rate hasn't changed since 1993. Meanwhile the majority of states have raised their fuel taxes in the last decade, according to the article I linked to earlier.
If that's true, I'm surprised this VMT concept hasn't been explored before now. I don't support it, and I can't think of any effective way they could enforce it. Some sort of tracking device on each vehicle? Not likely. Line items on your tax forms where you have to declare your mileage? Nope, no accountability.
In the end, I predict they will squander our tax dollars for another "study" that will result in nothing changing, at least for the foreseeable future.
Matt
BEG, if you dont know they are extorting more tax dollars than they need...I really dont know what to tell you. The fix is... the gov operates just like we have to do..within your means. Cut out all the pork, unnecessary spending that isnt absolutely necessary. There have been several studies every year that show how they could collect half the revenue they do now and still have money left over...of course that would mean a lot of people would be unhappy but it can be done. There has NEVER been a society that has taxed their way to prosperity...I know that is hard for some today to conceive but its a fact
If that's true, I'm surprised this VMT concept hasn't been explored before now. I don't support it, and I can't think of any effective way they could enforce it. Some sort of tracking device on each vehicle? Not likely. Line items on your tax forms where you have to declare your mileage? Nope, no accountability.
I haven't researched things enough to form an opinion one way or the other. With that said, I can at least understand the theory behind the VMT. Similar to a gas tax, you want the "users" (aka, drivers) to be the ones who pay for the services (aka, the roads). In the world of fuel efficient vehicles, EVs, etc taxing gas becomes far less equitable and is a poor proxy for road usage. Mileage would be a much more accurate reflection of actual use of the service.
This is only looking at it through that particular lens. There are plenty of other angles to consider as you rightly point out, Matt. Privacy, accountability, plus the myriad other costs and externalities that complicate the matter.
Furthermore, it's just another element that makes the whole energy transition complex.
I was self employed fir 13 yrs and most people dont realize how much taxes they pay until they have to fork out the money every quarter. Friggin taxes comin out the azz, there were times it was a matter of paying taxes vs investing in my business.
BEG, if you dont know they are extorting more tax dollars than they need...I really dont know what to tell you.
It's pretty easy to track down how much we collect related to the Highway Trust Fund. There is also plenty of information related to the state of our road infrastructure and estimates on what it will take to bring it up to grade from non-governmental sources like the American Society of Civil Engineers (see attached).
They estimate roughly a $750 billion backlog in needed repairs, expansions, and enhancements. We spend about $180-200 billion on these projects annually, and the backlog is only growing. Now sure, they're looking out for their profession and you can argue they may be a bit aggressive and conservative in their estimates, but I'd still defer to their opinions.
So, again, related to our road infrastructure specifically, can you tell me why these estimates are wrong and why we don't need more money?
They will just bury it in a new gas tax which will feel "invisible" and we will all just pull up to the pump and pay it.
I already told you why we dont need the money. Just like every other sect of the government when it comes to spending...they want more because they waste more...pretty simple. I dont have to look at numbers pumped out by the government to know that. Its naive imo not to see that..no disrespect to you Im just saying if they take more then they will waste more, an endless cycle. They do this because enough people vote for these big gov politicians
I already told you why we dont need the money.
What do we need? What is wrong with the ASCE estimates?
I dont have to look at numbers pumped out by the government to know that
Like I said, these numbers aren’t coming from the government. If it’s not the government and it’s not the American Society of Civil Engineers, whose numbers do you trust?
Its naive imo not to see that
First off, I’ve never said there is no such thing as government waste. But I also think it is an extreme cop out to stop at “government bad, we don’t need it.”
I don’t know of anyone that thinks that the infrastructure of this country isn’t underinvested in, in many cases woefully so.
To say “we don’t need it” to me is naive and shortsighted, and doesn’t address the reality and complexity of the situation we are in and where we are trending.
Yes, the poor will get poorer. The group Biden says he's helping most, and won't tax more, are going to pay more as well in one way or another.
We do not need the so called “infrastructure “ in the $3.5 Trillion bill. The term is totally misleading and preys upon the ignorant.
I never commented on what was in the infrastructure bill, beyond the study on the effects of a VMT.
BEG, its clear that you support big gov...I dont. It doesnt matter where the numbers come from ..I dont even have to see the numbers. You may assume some people are igonorant..I dont know, but I do have some common sense. Maybe when you end up paying 80% of your income in some form of taxes, you may get it, you cant argue with those numbers. Im just not ignorant enough to buy into this leftist big gov scam
Im 61 yrs old, Ive seen it all my life by Democrats and Republicans
It doesnt matter where the numbers come from ..I dont even have to see the numbers. You may assume some people are igonorant..I dont know, but I do have some common sense. Maybe when you end up paying 80% of your income in some form of taxes, you may get it, you cant argue with those numbers
That's the problem. Tons of "common sense," but doesn't look at the numbers and doesn't care to.
I'll ask again, how should we pay for our road infrastructure? How much do we need? If you don't want to pay the government to manage our roads, why would a privately owned road system be better? How would you expect that to play out? Do you have answers for any of these questions? My guess is no, because I've asked you to offer them up and you've responded with "I have common sense."
As a W-2 wage earner who makes a fairly decent salary, I'd guess my tax rate is higher than most. I don't like paying taxes. I loved Trump's tax cuts. I'd love for there to be additional tax cuts. That doesn't mean I think there should be no government programs. I love and take advantage of quite a few of them - our military, our public lands, and our public roads.
Well for starters we can stop handing money to other countries like billions in military equipment to the Taliban. Now they are talking about sending Israel a couple billion for a missile defense system. That could be starters on how we pay for roads. But I’m wondering why their needs to be taxes when apparently you can just print money out of thin air.
It’s being sold as an infrastructure deal in reality it’s an environmental play. They want to force people out of their cars. It’s been on the table here for the past 6 years. A state with one of the highest gas taxes. They are now floating returning a bunch of roads back to gravel as well. The beauty is you get to pay the tax for everything. You will see the surcharge on your Amazon delivery, refrigerator repair bill. At .08 a mile 12k miles a year is near $1000 in new cost. Now total up how many miles are driven by the vendors you use to keep your home running. Oh that’s right they don’t like people living in the suburbs because they are mostly white people. So let’s tax them out.
Spike78, he already knows that...he just wants to justify his love for big gov
You guys worry too much.
House Plant already told ya...... the 3+ trillion ain't gonna cost anybody anything......
Peppermint patty says it won't cost anything.
it wont cost THEM anything because its our money.
Maybe when we reach 80% extraction from our paychecks people will wake up
Mileage tax unfairly penalizes drivers in large, sparsely populated states, and rural parts of other large states, who drive more miles to get from point A to point B. Interestingly, people in those areas almost uniformly vote Republican, and will be the last to adopt EVs. Hmmmm....
Seems simple to put a mileage tax on EVs and just have fuel taxes on regular vehicles.
So... you know that’ll never happen.
I'm in favor of pay for use taxes, but the issue I have is they're in addition to our other taxes, not in place of them. We're already over 50% in taxes, we just don't get the benefits and our taxes come from 1,000 cuts, so it's not as easy to see. I wish all taxes were lumped together in one place and you really would see how high they are (off topic, but I'd add basic health care to that number too). America, the land of the fee and home of the slave.
Sounds like it would be very similar to a ELD which is used in commercial trucking. Not every app is the same, some provide necessary reports for DOT others are crap.
Truckers have been dealing with this for a while now. However, it is commercial use not personal use which should concern everyone.
Rick, since when is anything from the govt simple or logical? Hahaha! I need to replace a culvert under a road where a small stream runs through. Need a permit from Army Corp of Engineers for that. They are way behind on permitting because of "COVID". Is going to be a two year project for one day of work..
Jaq- that activity should be covered under a Nationwide Permit. Because of the small impact (less than 1/10 acre) a you don’t even have to file a Notice of Intent with the USACE. As long as there are no endangered species affected. Just follow the Nationwide Permit conditions.
Lou, before its over they will be telling us how offen we can flush our toilets, and will probably be penalized for having more than 2 toilets...Im makin a joke but the sad thing is its probably not too far fetched. Leftsit always go after higher taxes...whatever the details in the plan, thats what it will boil down to. The same old fairytale myth that more revenue will fix the problem
Lou - I have just gone through the wringer with the government because... apparently during COVID, government workers are not “essential workers” and they are understaffed.
But that’s a long story for a different thread.
I’m in favor of minimal taxes. If our government can give billions and billions to other countries for border walls and homosexual rights, they are getting too much tax revenue to begin with. I realize much of that money is “borrowed” but, the principle still applies.
The 5 G network will track everything
Thanks, KS. I'm checking with my colleague who does the permitting for our projects. I suspect the reason is because this stream is a tributary of a much larger river system that has Wild and Scenic designation, even though that designation is in place upstream from where our tributary enters (after passing through two reservoirs). Appreciate the heads up.
You cannot touch a culvert here with out a permit ( with exception of a specific flood disaster declaration) which entails a surface water management review , wetlands review and and environmental impact review. There is no such thing as a ditch they are all considered Streams even if they are intermittent. The regulations and fees have added 40% to the cost of building a home and from application to start it can take 3.5 years and 16 separate inspections. But they blame greedy builders and owners for the cost of housing and the low supply.
Vehicles and traveling equal freedom...so it's an obvious target. Similar to firearms, cash, privacy, speech, religion, healthcare choices and so on.
