Repeated Use?
General Topic
Hootchie Momma calls I have read here became ineffective because everyone used them.
Do deer and other animals learn products like Nose Jammer signal danger over time?
I believe that they do. In the 70s I started using skunk essence. It would do what nose jammer is advertised to do. At first the deer would get a whiff of it, it would inhibit their ability to smell and they would go about their business. It did not take more than a season and they would become alarmed and move away. When treestands first came into use a deer would walk under a stand 7' up. We were convinced that they never look up. Same with rattling, grunt tubes, sitting scrapes.
I'm not sure its the Hoochie Mama itself, but more how it is often improperly used by people wandering around squeaking in the woods, or squeaking it at animals that have already scented the hunter and are running away. Seems like Hoochie Mama users are very often inexperienced elk hunters.
Bugling, on the other hand.... Some scientists believe we are inadvertently selecting for silent bulls, which then pass on that trait to offspring. Silent bulls survive, while noisy bulls get shot. This year in my area of CO, bugling peaked during ML season. Every ML I know killed a bull after running to the bugles. After that 9 days, I think I only heard two bugles for the rest of archery season, even though bulls were still around.
^^^ I believe there is a lot of truth to that!
I think bugles and scent driven are not the same. NoseJammer etc, you are introducing into the woods for 1-2 months/year, the deer are there for 12 months. Not going to effect anything.
elk calls, yes, that MIGHT change things, since it's not a year round activity. Elk make noise in the woods, what I"ve noticed is cow calls are quieter than most calls, things like Hoochie Mama are one-trick ponies, they can, and do work, but you're better off having a call you can modulate volume, tone and duration with.
If no negative consequences occur, or close scares, how would the animal associate a smell or sound with a negative?
I think the deer in my area hear my tractor and Gator often enough that it doesn't scare them. They are cautious but don't take off. I think the deer on the public hunting area have heard deer calls so much they don't work like they used to. Years ago I could call bucks real easy. Some times two at a time but now it is much more difficult.
Sure, they associate the caller odor with danger. But there are always new animals running around so give it a try.
Sure, they associate the caller odor with danger. But there are always new animals running around so give it a try.
Repeated use... can make you go blind.
^^^ Thousands of hunters who have called in and killed bulls at the beginning of September or even the end of August would disagree with you. Pre rut can be the best time to call in mature bulls, and every elk bowhunter knows that.
Az, do you post ridiculous, nonsensical statements here and on the CO forum to troll, or are really as clueless as you appear? Do you even bowhunt? Doesn't seem like it from your posts.
I’m no expert by any means by the outfitter I’m booked with in Wyo let me know up front that “silent” is the way we will hunt.
I killed a cow elk calling her and three others in while using a hoochie momma. Granted it wasn’t the only cow call I used. I was blowing a reed and a fixed reed call too in order to mimic a herd.
Worked pretty good for me. Since then I’ve left it at home. Hadn’t killed an elk since doing so. Hoochie momma’s work. When used correctly and, at the right time.
Anyways, yes I believe game animals associate foreign calls from the real ones. I think they exhibit that trait in otc units and on public lands. I also believe they learn to associate danger with anything out of the norm. Like corn feeders, nose jammer, grunting sounds from the trees. No leaf noise when trying to call in whitetails, etc…..
Are you saying my "hoochie mama"is useless? Seriously though, I have found using calls sparingly and when "in season" is a good practice not educating your herd.
Elk(especially cows)are in groups a lot of the year. If I can tell it’s a hunter because of pitch, cadence, location or whatever, you think the elk can’t!!? They can tell individuals they hang with year round by sound just like we can recognize families voices in a crowd. I believe even if you’re a good caller they can tell it’s not one of the group(cows especially). I’ve witnessed a lead cow peel from group when none were alarmed and bull was responding to calls and circle downwind to see who newcomers were more than once! Especially in Colorado they are being conditioned to respond in similar ways because of all the calling pressure and bad experiences. And ditch the high pitched bugles, they have a metallic type sounding finish to them! Your educating bulls! Go deep!
Anyone who has any degree of observational ability knows that critters can and do correlate stimuli very well.
Trail cams and trapping taught me that decades ago. Even beavers will become set shy if they see too many 330's in their runs. Yotes that have had previous experiences with a buried trap will defecate all around it, marking it as a FU to the trapper and being very set shy...
I've shot many a doe that heard me in the dark, but didn't have the wind on me, come looking after daybreak to " see " what made that noise. Whitetail doe are always in the learning mode, IMO. Bucks have the luxury of turning and leaving. Does have more of a tie to a specific area, have the responsibility of raising the young ,and they will be very inquisitive at any intrusion.
So yes, animals DO learn and actually learn quicker than humans, IMO. My dogs were quick to understand when they were introduced to the shock collar. They are model citizens once the collars go on...My Irish buddy still hasn't learned about hangovers...still gets into his cup too hard. haha. Not too mention my other buddy that has been married three times....
Bake: "If no negative consequences occur, or close scares, how would the animal associate a smell or sound with a negative?" I'm in this camp. How can an animal not believe a totally realistic call made from a totally realistic location at a totally realistic time at a totally realistic frequency, etc. not believe it? Otherwise the procreation of all species...deer, elk, turkeys et al would cease. Where we err as humans is the violation of the "realistics".
Bake,
My own thoughts are deer have a nose that can detect the Jammer, and the nearby human scent, at least some of the time. They are smart enough to at least get wary over time?
30 years ago I also used Racoon scent for cover on my boots when I walked to my stands. In early years it was not unusual to have a deer follow my trail. After awhile, that quit happening, and I quit using it.
But honestly, I asked because I am still learning, I don’t know.
I’m no expert by any means by the outfitter I’m booked with in Wyo let me know up front that “silent” is the way we will hunt.
