My Covid Thoughts
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
orionsbrother 07-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 07-Dec-21
KSflatlander 07-Dec-21
Drnaln 07-Dec-21
Supernaut 07-Dec-21
Will 07-Dec-21
bigeasygator 07-Dec-21
MirageTC 07-Dec-21
Hancock West 07-Dec-21
timex 07-Dec-21
orionsbrother 07-Dec-21
Brotsky 07-Dec-21
Dale06 07-Dec-21
Quinn @work 07-Dec-21
Grasshopper 07-Dec-21
70lbdraw 07-Dec-21
Huntskifishcook 07-Dec-21
Cazador 07-Dec-21
deerhunter72 07-Dec-21
bigeasygator 07-Dec-21
SlipShot 07-Dec-21
[email protected] 07-Dec-21
TGbow 07-Dec-21
orionsbrother 07-Dec-21
Lawdog 07-Dec-21
orionsbrother 07-Dec-21
Mike in CT 07-Dec-21
ROUGHCOUNTRY 07-Dec-21
bigeasygator 07-Dec-21
Cazador 07-Dec-21
Ron Niziolek 07-Dec-21
TREESTANDWOLF 07-Dec-21
TGbow 07-Dec-21
Buffalo1 07-Dec-21
RK 07-Dec-21
Jaquomo 07-Dec-21
JL 07-Dec-21
2Wild Bill 07-Dec-21
JL 07-Dec-21
JL 07-Dec-21
Quinn @work 08-Dec-21
craigmcalvey 08-Dec-21
timex 08-Dec-21
Old Bow 08-Dec-21
SteveB 08-Dec-21
TGbow 08-Dec-21
ahunter76 08-Dec-21
Bob H in NH 08-Dec-21
JL 08-Dec-21
LINK 08-Dec-21
Cornpone 08-Dec-21
Jaquomo 08-Dec-21
70lbdraw 08-Dec-21
Brotsky 08-Dec-21
elkmtngear 08-Dec-21
elkmtngear 08-Dec-21
KSBOW 08-Dec-21
Jaquomo 08-Dec-21
70lbdraw 09-Dec-21
Jaquomo 09-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 09-Dec-21
Bake 09-Dec-21
LINK 09-Dec-21
BowSniper 09-Dec-21
TREESTANDWOLF 09-Dec-21
bigeasygator 09-Dec-21
WV Mountaineer 09-Dec-21
LINK 09-Dec-21
70lbdraw 09-Dec-21
[email protected] 09-Dec-21
70lbdraw 09-Dec-21
orionsbrother 09-Dec-21
KSflatlander 09-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 09-Dec-21
bigeasygator 09-Dec-21
soccern23ny 10-Dec-21
Hackbow 10-Dec-21
nchunter 10-Dec-21
70lbdraw 10-Dec-21
soccern23ny 10-Dec-21
Mike in CT 10-Dec-21
Hackbow 10-Dec-21
soccern23ny 10-Dec-21
Hackbow 10-Dec-21
spike78 10-Dec-21
soccern23ny 11-Dec-21
Hackbow 12-Dec-21
Bou'bound 12-Dec-21
orionsbrother 12-Dec-21
drycreek 12-Dec-21
spike78 12-Dec-21
rallison 12-Dec-21
07-Dec-21
I’ve posted some on the various Covid threads, but have tried to avoid repetition.

Because of a PM exchange where I misunderstood someone’s position slightly and because of events over the past week and this morning, I feel compelled to express something to you all that I had expressed in that PM exchange.

I believe that the vaccine offers benefits that are statistically sound. I do not believe that the vaccines are perfect, an all-encompassing panacea. I believe that getting vaccinated is prudent. I do not believe that pharmaceutical companies or government is without self interest. I do not believe that people should be forced to be vaccinated. I would hope that you would choose to get vaccinated.

For no other reason than the fact that I believe that there’s statistical benefit to you and I would miss the posts of many of you.

And Bowsite and Bow Hunting would be diminished.

“No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as any manner of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind. And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.”

Several of my bow hunting buddies are LEOs. That has extended my circle of friends in the LEO community.

Last week one of those guys passed away from Covid. Healthy, fit Reserve Military as well as being a Police Officer. He chose to not get vaccinated. He got Covid. It wasn’t a severe case. He felt as though he was recovering and then his wife found him dead. His service was last night.

Another friend, another police officer in the same department and circle of friends came down with Covid this weekend. He had also chosen to not be vaccinated. He was found dead this morning.

Our circle of friends is shrinking.

If you are healthy, you have a small risk of mortality with Covid. Natural immunity affords you protection, possibly better protection than the vaccine, for future infections... if you survive.

Because of some genetics or something, some of our friends have not survived to gain that natural immunity. Statistically, their odds would have been better had they been vaccinated.

I’m not demanding that anyone do anything. I am not berating anyone. I am not attacking anyone. I am respectfully requesting that you talk to your doctor, look at statistics from credible sources and consider your choices.

My opinion is merely my opinion. I do not believe that I have all of the answers. I do not believe that I derive physical benefit from you being vaccinated. The reservoir for the virus is too large. My benefit would be to continue enjoying your interactions here.

I wish you all and yours well.

That heartfelt expression was contained in my PM exchange and is my main point, why I felt compelled to post something.

Tough morning.

From: Grey Ghost
07-Dec-21
I'm sorry for your losses, Rick.

Matt

From: KSflatlander
07-Dec-21
Sorry for the loss of your friends.

From: Drnaln
07-Dec-21
Nice post Rick...I'm 68 years old & decided to get the 3 vaccine shots because my wife works 40 hours a week at Safeway. She's around more people in a day then I am in a year & I enjoy being around her. I also wanted to continue to be around all my kids, grand-kids & great-grand-kids so being vaccinated was best for me. Not sure if I ever got Covid but over 30 of my close relatives that were not vaccinated came down with the Virus. Some were hardly sick at all, a brother was in the hospital for 3 weeks & almost died & a 50 year old Step-Son died from Covid. I believe getting vaccinated is a personal choice each person should decide for themselves!

From: Supernaut
07-Dec-21
Rick, I'm very sorry for your loss. Thank you for your post. -Jim

From: Will
07-Dec-21
Nice commentary, and I'm very sorry for the loss of your friends.

You did a very good job speaking about the vax in a positive and factual way. It works. It is safe.

07-Dec-21
Sorry for your loss, thanks for posting your thoughts.

From: bigeasygator
07-Dec-21
Sorry for your losses, Rick and David. Sadly, I too have friends and family that chose not to get vaccinated and COVID took them too soon. Regarding everything else (vaccine choice, vaccine safety/effectiveness, etc.) you all said it as well as I could.

From: MirageTC
07-Dec-21
Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't. I'm sure we all know people that have had reactions to this vaccine. I know of one catastrophic reaction. I also know many people that have had covid without issues and some having/had a tough time of it. Like most of us I know of people, family even that has died with complications from covid.

So with that I feel it should be a choice and not a mandate.

From: Hancock West
07-Dec-21
Well said Orionsbrother. Sorry for your losses.

From: timex
07-Dec-21
7 weeks ago a coworker went out of state to a ball game contracted covid somewhere along the way. 4 people at work ended up with it. The 2 that were vaccinated were home & out for roughly 10 days. The 2 that wernt vaccinated ended up un the hospital one for 2 weeks & the other we buried 2 weeks ago. He was 43 years old. Iv never had the flue shot & don't intend on getting the covid shot but am definitely second guessing myself after my friend died.

07-Dec-21
Thank you everyone for your condolences. I will pass them along to my buddies. They worked with these guys day in and day out in a tough job. For them, it’s like losing a brother.

MirageTC - As I said in my post, I am not mandating or demanding anything. I am not berating anyone. Reinforced by recent events, I wanted to express that I wish you all well.

It is the season.

And respectfully request that you consider inquiring with a doctor you trust and check the statistics from credible sources to do your own evaluation of your options with current information.

My wife has a relative that can not be vaccinated because she has an allergic reaction to the carrier. She did not get vaccinated.

I am aware that people exist who would have an adverse reaction.

Anecdotally, I do not personally know of anyone who has been vaccinated and had a reaction other than some soreness and malaise. That does not mean that I claim that there’s zero risk. In my understanding, there’s reduced risk.

YMMV

From: Brotsky
07-Dec-21
"I'm sure we all know people that have had reactions to this vaccine."

I personally do not know any other than the sore arm or usual stuff people experience with any vaccine, and I run in a pretty wide and varied circle in my daily life.

From: Dale06
07-Dec-21
Sorry for your loss. I had a cousin and her husband, both mid 60s, both anti vaxers, now are both dead from covid. Would they have lived had they taken the vaccine, who knows.

From: Quinn @work
07-Dec-21
Sorry for your losses .

My reasons for getting the vaccine outnumbered my reasons for not. Therefore I chose to get vaccinated. I have lost a few unvaccinated friends and acquaintances to Covid and have been very lucky to have not lost any vaccinated friends and acquaintances. The math works for me.

From: Grasshopper
07-Dec-21
Sorry for the loss, I agree with your comments. While I am vaccinated, I stand with the freedom of choice folks.

My 85 year old dad who has smoked all his life had both shots, then the booster, then got covid. I know a number of folks who said worst flu they ever had. Some said no respiratory issues at all, just a constant headache and body aches so everyone's experience seems unique.

I do wish folks would move on from blaming unvaccinated. What is weird is no one seems to blame china or do anything about the fact is man made, but blaming an shaming their own neighbor apparently will help?

Rand Paul has it right, this virus has a 1% mortality, and you can be sure someone is working on the next one with a 50% mortality. We are doing nothing about that. In the beginning, it was clear so many critical items like common drugs come from China and 3rd world countries, yet we have done nothing and learned nothing to geographically move manufacturing. We cant find people to work at freaking Mcdonalds.

My Dad had the regeneron anti-body treatment immediately upon testing positive, but he had to demand it. The doctor never proposed or recommended it. He recovered really quick. Instead of focusing on treatment - the world is stuck in a vaccination strategy headed no where. When will we move on to treatment? I firmly believe that is how to solve this.

From: 70lbdraw
07-Dec-21
"I am respectfully requesting that you talk to your doctor, look at statistics from credible sources and consider your choices."

I've heard that statement quite a bit since the Vax came out. The problem is that when you tell someone that you have honestly and carefully chosen not to take it, you immediately hear the disappointment and criticism from them. It's been too politicized to believe anything about it.

One thing is guaranteed. If you live long enough...something is going to kill you. Maybe covid...or maybe a Capitol officer with an itchy trigger finger. Nobody gets out unscathed!

07-Dec-21
Sorry for your losses.

I had a change of position this past summer. I had originally decided I would not get the vaccine. Not because I thought it was unsafe or there was some governmental conspiracy happening. I'm youngish, eat clean, healthy, active, prideful, and hate being told what to do, so I chose not to get it. I'm glad I had a change of position. I unknowingly brought covid to thanksgiving at my parents house, despite having 2 doses of Pfizer. My Dad is severely immunocomprimised and had recieved his booster 2 weeks prior. We had zero precautions in place at their house, because everyone had tested negative the day prior. He didn't catch it. Nor did either of my in-laws, both of whom are in their 70's and received boosters recently. We will never be able to prove if it was their boosters, my vaccine that helped to lessen the risk of transmission or some combination of both, but the result was great nonetheless. That anecdotal evidence is proof enough for me. Whatever anyone else chooses to do is fine by me, but given those circumstances, I'm grateful I made the choice to get it.

From: Cazador
07-Dec-21
Sorry for your loss.

From: deerhunter72
07-Dec-21
This is a great, well thought out post Rick. Sorry for the loss of your friends. I also lost a coworker and friend about a year ago. He turned 45 while fighting for his life on a vent. He got sick about a month too soon to get the vaccine. Would the shot have saved his life? No one knows. But I do know that his wife and kids wish he had had the opportunity to try it. I find it sadly ironic that a lot of staunch "anti vaccers" have died from COVID. I just can't imagine what it would feel like to lose a family member and be left to wonder if a shot could've saved them.

From: bigeasygator
07-Dec-21
Sorry for your loss, Cazador. Did they say what happened or how the vaccine led to the death?

From: SlipShot
07-Dec-21
Rick well said! I have several friends pass, some before the vaccine was available. I have seen friends and family get it that I thought for sure were going to die and survive, and then I have a couple young health friends get it and die. I do not think it should be mandatory, but wish everyone would get the shot. FYI I have had 3 shots and while my wife and adult kids have refused to get the vaccine. My wife and youngest son (21) both had COVID. Proof the the vaccine works is that I did not get it, as I did not take any precautions when they were sick. .

07-Dec-21
orionsbrother...

so sorry for your loss. i pray for their families and yours. i also pray that those who for whatever reason have chosen not to get vaccinated have a change of heart. if they don't, i pray for their safety.

07-Dec-21
I don't personally know anyone who has had a bad reaction to the Vax and only know one person who died with covid complicating existing health issues. Everyone else had mild to normal flu symptoms. I meet with customers and vendors daily, have 2 kids in sports and haven't avoided any social contact.

My condolences for those who have had it effect their family and friends.

The response to Covid has effected my circle of friends and family much more than the virus.

From: TGbow
07-Dec-21
So sorry for the loss of your friends. That is about as good a statement that Ive read on this site. I agree. Me, my wife and daughter survived Covid but with this virus iy seems to take a lot of people that appear to be healthy. I dont blame anyone for getting the vaccine at all. My wife has lost a family member and a friend to Covid.

07-Dec-21
70lbdraw -

“ I've heard that statement quite a bit since the Vax came out. The problem is that when you tell someone that you have honestly and carefully chosen not to take it, you immediately hear the disappointment and criticism from them. It's been too politicized to believe anything about it.”

Well... I’m not laying any disappointment or criticism on you. So you won’t hear it from me.

Do I believe that I’ve made a rational decision and that it makes sense for me and my family? Yes.

Do I believe that mathematically it would make sense for others? Sure. I believe that the risk assessment is fairly clear. I suspect that the guys who just succumbed to Covid would have been better off being vaccinated ...But it’s not up to me.

And I would not want it to be up to me.

It’s like some twisted version of the “Trolley Problem”

The math is pretty straightforward. Less people dying is better than more people. Especially if you can think of people like commodities. But people are going to die either way.

Those who want the power of mandates? You want to pull the lever to save more lives? And then bear the responsibility for those on the sidetrack like Cazador’s friend?

That’s why I believe that my reasoning is sound and still won’t bust your chops.

I wish you and others nothing but the best and hope to see you on the other side. Odds of that are pretty good either way.

From: Lawdog
07-Dec-21
Sorry for your loss. I too have lost friends to Covid, and not the ones I thought I would. I still believe that vaccination is a personal choice period. I'm healthy, but I'm not a young man. My wife has medical issues. So, after consulting my doctor, I got the vaccine and never looked back. I've not had Covid, but I really believe that it comes down to don't do anything stupid. Hard to get Covid if your pastime is hanging out in the woods by yourself.

07-Dec-21
And I don’t want to keep going on this. I got some shocking news. I’m stuck at work and things were slower than normal. I posted contrary to my previous inclinations to let this topic set.

I appreciate the condolences and will pass them on.

Best to all of you.

From: Mike in CT
07-Dec-21
Rick,

I just saw this and I'm so sorry for your loss. Please pass along my condolences.

Best,

Mike

From: ROUGHCOUNTRY
07-Dec-21
I finally took the Phizer dual shot and as another stated: My reasons for outnumbered my reasons against or reasons to wait.

Should we be calling these various shots "Vaccines" since they seem to lack long term efficacy like traditional vaccines?

From a financial standpoint, wouldn't pharmaceutical companies benefit from a regular regimen of booster shots than a "one and done" solution?

My condolences for anyone grieving the loss of a loved one...………...

Perhaps I'm a lemming or sheeple that follows the crowd but has some lingering questions in my mind:)

From: bigeasygator
07-Dec-21
Just got my booster today. Other than my 5G service going through the rough and I having the powers of Magneto, no big deal.

From: Cazador
07-Dec-21
@ Bigeasy, underlying heart issues.

From: Ron Niziolek
07-Dec-21
Sorry for your losses, Rick. Thanks for the post.

07-Dec-21
Rick. My sincere condolences sir.

I wish I could write like you. Your words are exactly how I feel.

For me, my “ circle” is vaccinated and yet, we are all unsure. As you said, there’s some genetic thing or something that takes loved ones away with this virus.

Thank you for writing this. Surely, this is how I feel.

From: TGbow
07-Dec-21
I pray all of you stay in good health...thats the important thing

From: Buffalo1
07-Dec-21
Orionsbrother, I totally agree with your position on Covid. Very sorry to hear the loss of your friends.

From: RK
07-Dec-21
So sorry for your loss

This stuff really sucks

From: Jaquomo
07-Dec-21
Rick, you know what I think. And I'm Pro Choice, while accepting the reality that this is a bad one whether causing or contributing, and no matter what humans try to do it will run its course in some mutated form or another. A lot of undeserving people will die. Might be me. That's what happens. All we can do is strengthen our immunity by whatever means we choose, and hope for the best.

From: JL
07-Dec-21
Sorry to anyone who lost a family member or buddy. I lost my neighbor/fishing buddy last year.

FWIW...I was watching on the news yesterday I think it was....and I recall it may have been (Dr) Rand Paul saying that as viruses mutate, they usually get weaker. In this case....so much so it may end up being similar to the common cold/flu.

07-Dec-21
The virus gets weaker with mutations? Is that as true as the vaccine usually works.

Trublu, I agree it has been weaponized, but that worked because of great ignorance.

From: 2Wild Bill
07-Dec-21
Too many lies for too many years from too many people.

It is when a people forget God that tyrants forge their chains. - Patrick Henry

From: JL
07-Dec-21

JL's Link
HFW...take this FWIW. Note it has a section saying the SARS virus did this.

From: JL
07-Dec-21

JL's embedded Photo
JL's embedded Photo
BS wouldn't let me post this pic in the above post.

From: Quinn @work
08-Dec-21
"It is when a people forget God that tyrants forge their chains. - Patrick Henry"

"God" has nothing to do with if you die or not from Covid. Jews, Muslims, Christians, Atheists, etc have all died from this and will continue to. It doesn't matter what or who you believe in.

I'm just glad most of us have a choice to be vaxed or not. Hopefully your choice is the right one.

From: craigmcalvey
08-Dec-21
“God” has everything to do with the issue of death…regardless if it’s Covid or any other mechanism. your beliefs will color your opinions on many things, Covid included.

Craig

08-Dec-21
JL,

My point is we simply choose what to believe based on our biases. Anti-Vax folks will want to believe the virus will weaken most likely, while those of us vaccinated will believe it offers the best protection, most likely.

From: timex
08-Dec-21

timex's embedded Photo
I wouldn't hesitate to wipe this off on my pants & make a sandwich with it.
timex's embedded Photo
I wouldn't hesitate to wipe this off on my pants & make a sandwich with it.
I believe in natural immunity ya notice how the folks that are always sick & always at the doc & always taking meds & always sick & always at the doc & on & on & on. With the exception of heart disease I rarely if ever get sick. I don't take that great of care of myself not constantly washing my hands. Heck I'll even admit to picking boogers out of my nose & biting fingernails. I'm a true believer in what doesn't kill ya makes ya stronger. Absolutely do what ya believe is best for you. Myself personally believe in natural immunity.

From: Old Bow
08-Dec-21
Our southern border proves the truth

From: SteveB
08-Dec-21
I personally don't know ANYONE who had an issue with taking the vaccine. I do have a couple of friends who were vaccinated and still contracted COVID19 and recovered. Sadly the 7 deaths and multiple serious hospitalizations from COVID19 in my circle were all unvaccinated. Including my very healthy father. Also, my cousin is a lifetime ICU nurse and has cared for hundreds of COVID patients the past 1.5 years and he says that the VAST majority of serious infections are unvaccinated and it's not even close. He has seen zero deaths among vaccinated.

From: TGbow
08-Dec-21
SteveB, so sorry for your loss

From: ahunter76
08-Dec-21
I have been vax + booster. I am "old". I tested positive last week. Went in as I had a scratchy throat JUST LIKE when I get a cold (I get a scratchy throat, 2-3 days later, I have a cold). My wife, a Nurse (retired) that still works part time is vaxed & booster coming soon. She went in because of my results& tested negative. She has seen TONS of vaxed & unvaxed cases of covid the last couple weeks. I don't think we have enough info on how much vax helps & I doubt we will with the current health officials seeming to change horses every other day. We have had several family members get it in the last couple weeks (all mild) & all in different areas (1 hour or more apart). We also know a few who have passed & in these cases "all" have had some other serious health problems. Like ANY disease, we will have a seemingly healthy person pass & this puzzels us all. I do believe in natural immunity but went ahead & did the vax due to my "wifes" other health problems. My symptoms hae been mild & non existent now. I come off quarenteen in a couple days. When this all started we did everything recommended Stayed away from family, cancelled vacations, Masked & limited going into public. Now, I still do what a business asks but I frequent going out. We dine out, I grocery shop, go to places for other entertinment around crowds (ball games, G-kids sports, fairs). I mask IF required. Like someone said, blame China & our stupid do nothing politicians, not people vaxed or unvaxed personal opinions. So since I've done everything I have been told, vaxed, booster & had Covid, I must be immune & no worries, right???? I bet no one has the slightest idea on this since "we can't" trust our health official leaders. (my opinion) . I pray all get thru this & those responsible burn in hell.

08-Dec-21
SteveB,

One of my wife's closest friends is an ICU nurse here in the KC area at one of our largest hospitals, and has said the same...just about everyone in ICU is someone that is unvaccinated and zero fatalities with those vaccinated. I understand this is a limited sample size and we should not draw conclusions from that alone. Thanks.

From: Bob H in NH
08-Dec-21
There are people who die of Covid, there are people who die after the vaccine. That is, unfortunately expected. Immune systems are so complex they are all different. Add on top of that the underlying health issues, that often are unknown, add to it. The issue I have is the politics of it all

If you do your research, work with your doctor, make the best decision for you, and skip the vaccine, you get slammed.

If you do your research, work with your doctor, make the best decision for you, and get the vaccine, you get slammed by the other side.

There is so much anecdotal and miss-information, that many fear getting or not getting the shots.

Liken it to smoking and it's link to cancer. Pretty much an accepted thing. However I know multiple people who smoked packs a day for many years and lived to 90-100 years old and were VERY healthy.

Human biology and immunity is amazingly complex. There are ALWAYS variations.

There is also MUCH you can't say accurately. For example, a person who didn't get COVID, then got the shot, then died. would they have caught COVID and died anyway? IMPOSSIBLE TO SAY

From: JL
08-Dec-21
FWIW....Colin Powell was vaxed and didn't make it.

08-Dec-21
fwiw, colin powell was 84 years old...was being treated for parkinsons disease...and was immunocompromised due to terminal blood cancer.

From: LINK
08-Dec-21
??

08-Dec-21
“ The people that feel they are at risk would be better off to put down the big gulp and fries and start exercising their lungs than they will be taking the vaccine”

Link,

Care to state your qualifications that allow you to draw this conclusion, other than your limited sample size that runs counter to what others have stated on this thread?

From: Cornpone
08-Dec-21
I don't think anyone who doesn't want the vaccine should be mandated to get it. But don't be a hypocrite...if you get Covid don't go to a doctor or hospital. Stay home and you have a decent chance of getting over it. In fact, IMO, if you're not vaccinated a hospital should deny you admittance. I'm sick of the fact that the vaccine has been politicized. Personally I have two friends who opted out on getting the vaccine. They both got Covid and, after some rough going at home, got over it. Fine.

From: Jaquomo
08-Dec-21
God is really busy this time of year deciding the outcome of football, basketball, hockey, soccer, all the Olympic sports, even down to individual plays in each game, plus answering all those prayers for Christmas presents, that I'm not sure he/she has time to decide who lives and who dies from any diseases, especially COVID.

From: 70lbdraw
08-Dec-21
"In fact, IMO, if you're not vaccinated a hospital should deny you admittance."

Like they do when you get lung cancer? After all, it's the individuals fault for smoking...right? Or perhaps you should be denied hospital service if you crash your dirt bike. After all, you were being careless...right?

From: Brotsky
08-Dec-21
LOL Lou, you forgot all the prayers for the neighbors not to kill any target bucks :)

From: elkmtngear
08-Dec-21
"just about everyone in ICU is someone that is unvaccinated and zero fatalities with those vaccinated".

HFW, we have had several fully vaccinated individuals die, in our local Hospital (and we are not a large Metro area... 250 bed Hospital). That's not to say they didn't have some type of Co-morbidity, but the vaccine is certainly no guarantee against death from Covid.

The really interesting part, is how the local news buried the Story, within 24 hours, on the last vaccinated guy that expired in ICU.

08-Dec-21
"Like they do when you get lung cancer? After all, it's the individuals fault for smoking...right? Or perhaps you should be denied hospital service if you crash your dirt bike. After all, you were being careless...right?"

i dont think anyone should be turned away...but last i knew lung cancer or dirt bike accidents werent contagious.

08-Dec-21
Elk, I agree it is no guarantee, but it does increase your odds of survival. Most of us bet with the odds, usually. Why is this different?

From: elkmtngear
08-Dec-21
"Most of us bet with the odds, usually. Why is this different"?

I was very interested in the immunology aspect of my Nuclear Medicine Training/ Tuition. Learned how to maximize immunity at an early age. So, opted to never take a flu shot, but rather GET the flu. Covid was no different for me, I assumed I would eventually get it (I did), and life would go on.

I'm definitely not an "anti-vaxxer" (my kids got all their "Puppy Shots"). But, I am very pro natural immunity (and I have always had a strong immune system).

That's MY reasoning. Take it however you like.

08-Dec-21
Thanks

From: KSBOW
08-Dec-21
I have worked in a hospital throughout this process and wish there was more conversations going on like this. Do your research, and do what is best for you and your family. Will tell you I never saw coming what has happening in medical facilities right now. We are in a scary place, our health systems were already on the brink COVID has done good job of giving it a good push.

From: Jaquomo
08-Dec-21

Jaquomo's Link
I'm still wondering why there are no published statistics on infection rates among maskers vs. Non-maskers? Would be really easy to ask a couple questions when people test positive. Perhaps because it will show that masking with cloth or cheesy paper masks has no meaningful effect, as shown in a number of studies?

From: 70lbdraw
09-Dec-21
"Perhaps because it will show that masking with cloth or cheesy paper masks has no meaningful effect, as shown in a number of studies?"

Shhhh...You can no longer debate or question what most consider common sense. We'll have to lock you up if you keep spreading "MISINFORMATION"!

If you're confused as to what constitutes "misinformation", just ask a bowlib...they adopted that term quickly. Suddenly they think they're right 100% of the time.

09-Dec-21
Masks have very much negatively affected the teaching experience at my college. I know several excellent instructors that have retired due to masks being mandated.

My opinion, teach on-line only if you are concerned about contracting Covid and let those of us willing to do it in person have a choice about mask usage. I have the shots and booster, that’s enough precaution, at least for me.

From: Jaquomo
09-Dec-21
Masks have negatively affected a whole generation of kids. Humans interact nonverbally with facial expressions. This is an important part of socialization, especially with young kids as brains and personalities develop. We will never know the true extent of the retardation caused by forced masking in schools and elsewhere, but I believe the long term negative effects on society will far outweigh whatever risk COVID presented.

From: Grey Ghost
09-Dec-21
I'm not sure about the sociological effects of masking on young kids, but I think masks make me about 30% more handsome. And I've always been overly sensitive to people with halitosis. Masks certainly help with that too. ;-)

Sorry for making fun of the hysteria over wearing masks. Whether they work or not, they've just never been that big of a deal for me. I wear them were they are required, and don't where they are not. There are far bigger issues to worry about, IMO.

Matt

From: Bake
09-Dec-21
Since we're telling stories. I always hesitate to bring up my son with people, because I don't want people to think I'm seeking sympathy, but essentially, my son and my wife convinced me to get vaccinated. Myself, my wife, my 8 year old daughter, my brother and his kids, all vaccinated.

Prior to the vaccine coming out, I was in the camp of "I'll get it, but I don't want to be a guinea pig and I'll wait to get it after a while." Because of my wife and son, I got on an overflow list, and was vaccinated in the first round that was available to the general public where I live.

First of all, my wife "asked" me to get it. We generally let each other get away with a LOT, but after 15 years of marriage, if it's something serious enough that we "ask" the other, in all seriousness, then we know it's serious to that spouse, and we do it. It's worked for us :) My wife works in healthcare, she sees on average 20-25 patients a day, many of them have been Covid positive. When she asked me to get the vaccine, she let me know how important it was to her.

Secondly, my son had a seizure disorder. He was not able to get all of his normal childhood vaccinations (this was WAY before Covid). I can't remember all the reasons, and what he could be or couldn't be vaccinated for. But I remember he wasn't vaccinated for Whooping cough, and he had some significant health issues. Sicknesses were dangerous to him. We had multiple month-long hospital stays due to pneumonia that developed from regular sickness that other kids would bounce back from in days. In fact, complications from pneumonia was listed as his official cause of death.

He had a great babysitter at one time that truly truly loved (loves) him. And then she started to babysit another child who's parents were anti-vaxxers and that child was not vaccinated for any of those normal childhood vaccinations (again, this was WAY before Covid). We made the difficult decision to end that relationship, worried about exposure. And sure enough, that other child got whooping cough at a later date. That could have shortened my sons life even further had he gotten that.

So, my son convinced me to get it too. I thought "If this vaccine has any chance whatsoever of lowering ANY risk that I could transmit this to a person (like my son) who is compromised in any way, and keeps from killing that person. Then I should do it."

That was my thinking. If me getting vaccinated helps any other person in any little way, then it's worth getting. And I have family that are high risk that I see a couple times a week. A cousin that has had a liver transplant and takes anti-rejection meds that lower his immunity. An aunt who has had recent health problems and is 80 years old. My father and mother are 70 and statistically more likely to have complications, etc.

My .02. For what's worth

From: LINK
09-Dec-21
“ The rate of death from vax is less than Covid so if you were rolling dice the vax would be a better bet.”

What if your under 40 and have a bmi of less than 21%? I have “rolled the dice” knowing, that with a fair amount of heart disease in my family, I’m just as likely to die of the jab. My brothers 6 and ten years older and significantly heavier both had the China virus before the shot was out. Other than lost taste or smell neither knew they were sick. My 92 grandmother and aunts have decided they are better off without it. To this point they haven’t had it, that they know of. Knowing all that I still can’t figure out why I would need the jab. Now a month ago I lost smell, still don’t have it. So especially with my new natural immunity, what is the upside of the jab for me? I certainly understand why some elderly or those like Bake think it’s in their best interest. With nearly everyone I know having all ready had the virus, why is the shot still needed?

From: BowSniper
09-Dec-21
There are a number of good reasons for getting the Vax, especially age and comorbity risks. But if you remember back to the very beginning (before there ever was a vaccine) we found that 80% of covid cases were mild/asymptomatic. Some 15-20% were hospitalized, and roughly 2% tragically did not survive. But be honest.... are the results post-vaccine really all that different?? Deaths in 2021 with 70% of the population vaccinated even more than 2020. Is anyone else concerned/shocked by that???

I really question our entire approach. If this is a global problem (and it is) than vaccinating one country does nothing if other places remain where the virus can continue to mutate and spread to get around whatever benefit the vaccine had to offer. We appear to be spinning our wheels... and that is not simply anti-science heresy.

Aside from the obvious concerns (mRNA design, gov't coercion, etc.) I have a real issue with signing up for a LIFETIME of these shots. And the misleading way that fact is being withheld. It's NOT just two weeks to flatten the curve anymore. Maybe it never was....

I think we can all agree that covid is NEVER going away. And that the vaccine as it exists now is short-lived at best. The double shot is effective (depending on the ever-changing definition of effective) for what.... 6 months, maybe 8? A "booster" is now required. But who are they kidding??? The booster is the same exact vaccine formula. So just be honest, the booster is not gonna last either, and the TRUTH is that if you rely on this vaccine you are signing up for an annual shot. And the way this vax process is being forced and tracked, once you get on that ride they might not ever let you off. And if we manipulate our body's natural ability to react to a virus year after year after year, we might just wreck it's ability to do so on its own. And forgive me but yeah, I am more than a little hesitant to take that risk.

09-Dec-21
Link, valid points all around.

The sucky part.... we don’t know, what we don’t know. Unfortunately

From: bigeasygator
09-Dec-21
But be honest.... are the results post-vaccine really all that different?? Deaths in 2021 with 70% of the population vaccinated even more than 2020. Is anyone else concerned/shocked by that???

Yes, they are. It's not shocking when you also consider that the bulk of COVID related deaths come from unvaccinated individuals. Also remember that in 2020 we were essentially locked down and we've reopened in 2021.

That was my thinking. If me getting vaccinated helps any other person in any little way, then it's worth getting

That's my logic too, Bake. It's also where acquiring "natural immunity" through infection fails as a strategy for managing the virus. By its very nature, that strategy requires you to spread the virus and requires you to perpetuate infections. The data is clear that establishing immunity via vaccination is a much safer and more effective approach than relying on people getting infected.

So especially with my new natural immunity, what is the upside of the jab for me? I certainly understand why some elderly or those like Bake think it’s in their best interest. With nearly everyone I know having all ready had the virus, why is the shot still needed?

If you just had COVID, I'm not saying you need the shot but I do think it's prudent to get it at some point down the line. It will boost immunity. What is the downside of getting the jab? Even if "nearly everyone I know" has had the virus, that's not everyone and I would assume you're also around people you don't know.

09-Dec-21
Bake, I’m sorry for your loss. And, your reasoning sure makes sense to me.

I started not to post on this thread. Because I’m the guy Rick had a pm exchange with. We are great friends. He’s like a brother to me and I’ve never met him. It doesn’t stop either of our families to send the other things. Hunting things for Ricks kids and some really cool things and Maple syrup!!!! From Rick’s kids. Yep, we are family.

And, family tries to look out for each other. Which is what got Rick to pm me discussing how he was free choice but, he requested I give the vax shot another consideration. He was unaware that I have previously had Covid. I’m guessing my intent to keep things into perspective had misled him.

For the record, nearly all my family has been vaccinated or had the virus. About a 60/40 split on vax/unvaxed. I’m not anti vax. In no way shape or form. But, according to unbiased science, I don’t need the vaccine at this point.

That’s my refusal. That’s my whole point. Anyone who’s in my camp is being labeled by many as ignorant of reality, selfish, etc….. By people who do so with no regard to anyone else’s situation or reasoning. It’s beyond stupid. It’s arrogant and it something the security a computer screen allows. Because no one talks to another man like the Covid police do, in person. It ain’t happening. And, everyone knows it.

Anyways, it’s a choice and will forever remain that way. Politicizing this has forced lines in the sand. From both sides. The problem is there are a bunch of camps on both sides. Reason why the shot is a good idea and reasons why some haven’t gotten the shot. But, the truth remains that if everyone got the vaccine, this isn’t going away. For reason that bowsniper touched on and, the reality that these vaccines aren’t stopping the spread of the virus.

That’s reality. That’s the science I’ve been reading. That’s my hypothesis. What I do affects no one but me. That goes for everyone of us. Talk with your family. To the people you love. Get their opinion on how you having or not having the vaccine will affect them.

I’ve watched peoples families torn apart over this virus. Grandparents who haven’t seen their Grandkids and, vice versa for over years now? Why? Because there appears to be no grey area concerning this. You are either a good person or not. Defined solely on whether you’ve gotten a “vaccine”. SMH.

09-Dec-21
Lots of static analysis taking place. My bet is in the long run science will move us past regular vaccinations and there will be novel approaches discovered with benefits in fighting many infectious diseases. Look at the progress made just in our lifetimes.

From: LINK
09-Dec-21
It is sad how in some cases it has torn families apart. We asked my 92 year old unvaxed grandmother what she wanted for Christmas. Her words were “a hug from my grandkids every day from now until Christmas”. She knows what risk that brings with or without a vaccine. She would rather die living life than die living in quarantine and fear. That’s the American spirit most of us grew up on. It seams like that spirit has been lost on younger generations.

From: 70lbdraw
09-Dec-21
What urks me is the fact that we (vaxed or not) are forced to play Russian roulette with the information discombobulation. While the folks in China that created the issue, suffer no consequences what so ever.

09-Dec-21
I'm not convinced that all the blame for this virus lies with China. If we ever get to know, I won't be surprised if a lot of the finger prints are red white and blue.

From: 70lbdraw
09-Dec-21
Exactly my point Glunt!

09-Dec-21
I’m glad Justin felt comfortable posting. I did not want to intrude on the privacy of any PMs and name him. And I don’t think anyone should be compelled to disclose their “status” or have anyone else volunteer it for them.

I do not catch every post here. I bounce in and out multitasking at the same time. I missed something and misunderstood something in some of his posts.

So I sent him a PM.

And expressed my thoughts directly without recriminations, attitude and haranguing despite my misunderstanding his position. And I expressed that my (incorrectly) different viewpoint was driven by well wishes.

I think highly of Justin and many others here. If someone would have suggested to me years ago that I would consider people that I’ve never met in person and only interacted with over the internet and on the phone to be friends, I would have laughed. But I do.

So I thought it was worthwhile to post something about the situation in spite of my inclination to leave the Covid threads alone. I had expressed my opinion, respectfully, and didn’t want to continue beating a dead horse.

But I wanted to take a moment, as we are in the season, to extend my well wishes and explain that any request that you look at statistics and speak with a doctor you trust, getting the best information you can to make your decisions is driven only by my well wishes for you.

And you have those well wishes regardless of whether you come to a different conclusion than I do. And that extends beyond Christmas.

Undoubtedly, my opinions and desire to express them are reinforced by the recent cluster of deaths around me and the resulting reflection.

That reflection has also reinforced one of my personal philosophies. “Choose who you want to be.”

Justin touched on the politicization, arrogance and attitude that seems to be facilitated by a computer keyboard as opposed to face to face encounters.

My buddies and I all bust each other’s balls with regularity and I’m also married, so I can take it. I’m certainly not sensitive or delicate, but that’s almost all face to face. And we all attempt to deliver that with humor and in a colorful and creative fashion. Extra points if you’re capable of making everyone laugh at themselves.

I aspire to that here as well and welcome that coming in my direction too.

And to those who hold different opinions and strongly disagree with me... those who believe that I’m wrong, cite false information, wear tinfoil hats, am a keyboard warrior, couldn’t reason my way out of wet tissue, that I’m a simple sheep, a rube for the powers that be...

Meh.

I wish you and yours the best. Hope to see you posting well into the future. Have a great safe Christmas and New Year. Short bloodtrails.

From: KSflatlander
09-Dec-21
Shawn Magyar/SingleString- is this kind of like Cyber Ninjas predictions you had?

Tin foil hat crap…again…and again…and again…canceled…again

Just say condolences to orionsbrother and move on

From: Grey Ghost
09-Dec-21
Since none of his previous posts exist anymore due to being banned dozens of times, I'd also remind people that Shawn Magyar (aka: SingleString this go around) was one of the biggest Bowsite alarmists when Covid first hit. He also stated that he got the vaccine as soon as it was available, and was going to get the booster too for the "40% boost to his immunity". Now he's advocating the whole Faucci/Wuhan Lab/ biological warfare conspiracy. Take that for what it's worth.

Matt

From: bigeasygator
09-Dec-21
Rick, this (for the most part) has to be the most positive thread related to COVID on this forum and thank you for starting it.

I appreciate the heartfelt thoughts from all, and I am encouraged by the number of folks who believe in the safety and efficacy of the vaccine, understand the hesitancy of people who have gained immunity through infection to get vaccinated now, and empathize with those who have lost friends and family to this disease.

From: soccern23ny
10-Dec-21
Only a sheep goes goes to the hospital after getting covid. Real men tough it out at home.

From: Hackbow
10-Dec-21
Kinda like only real men point their loaded, safety off guns at noises....right little nicky?

From: nchunter
10-Dec-21
This is what I don't understand concerning the vaccine. I am vaccinated. But everything I have read says the only person I am affecting whether I was or wasnt vaccinated is myself. I know plenty of vaccinated folks that have caught covid. They can spread it just as easily as a non-vaccinated person. The only folks that are getting hit real hard by it now are the unvaccinated. I absolutely dont understand people that give others hell for not being vaccinated- the unvaccinated folks are only affecting themselves. This virus isnt being stopped by the vaccine,its only affecting severity of the illness. This could go on for years until a real cure comes around. I would love to know if the LEO's had any underlying condition that resulted in their deaths. I have known about 25 people that have had it and the worst so far has been a lite fever and lack of taste. Beats me, I'm no pro on it but these are my observations.

From: 70lbdraw
10-Dec-21
Those that aren't vaxed at this point, aren't vaxed because that's the individual choice THEY made. It's like volunteering to go to war. They know the consequences and have accepted them. To continue to push it on those of us that declined it, is an exercise in futility. Thus the benefits of living in a free America.

Let's go Brandon!

From: soccern23ny
10-Dec-21
Fake news hack hack. Try again

From: Mike in CT
10-Dec-21

Mike in CT's Link
NC,

I can't recall a time when it was more difficult to sift through "information" to find out where the truth lay than in this current pandemic. With regard to vaccination and disease transmission here are the key points; yes, a fully vaccinated person can still get infected and initially have a viral load that makes them infectious. Unlike unvaccinated individuals (absent a robust immune response (natural immunity) that clears the virus and reduces viral load) vaccinated individuals see a steady decrease in their viral load with many dropping to levels considered non-infectious within a few days.

None of the above should be misconstrued as an endorsement of vaccine mandates; from day 1 I have never been in favor of that and have advised all to weigh the risks versus the rewards and consult with a trusted physician. The choice to vaccinate or not for this disease should always reside solely in that camp.

Link attached, hope this helps....

From: Hackbow
10-Dec-21
Your words little nicky. So if it is fake news it was you lying.

From: soccern23ny
10-Dec-21
Hack is a hack... fake news. Quote me accuratly or say nothing at all.

From: Hackbow
10-Dec-21
little nicky: "Who here hasnt' drawn their bow or readied their firearm at a big rustle coming through the brush only to have it be a squirrel, or a fox, or a dog, or even another bow hunter. If you drew back and it turned out to not be your species you just put yourself in the same boat as me, just happened to not be a human popping out... You hear the noise, you see the movement, it's quick, your heart skips a beat, you've trained to draw when the animals eyes are concealed of your movement, it's draw now while it's coming out or when they are in the open to see you. BS if you have't drawn your hunting implement in this situation."

Were you not implying that you had done this? Words mean things.

From: spike78
10-Dec-21
Mike, not sure if I ever had a physician that I trusted. Seems they all take your symptoms down and go into a computer room and search Web MD. I wish I was joking. After all their are plenty that have amputated the wrong arm or leg.

From: soccern23ny
11-Dec-21
oh so, you're saying that it was more than just "sound/noise"... it included movement. maybe you should even find the original comment I made which was even more detailed.

so in sum, you miss quoted me and weren't factual with your portrayal, no surprise there. par of the course for the right.

From: Hackbow
12-Dec-21
little nicky, I quoted your exact words. I saved the original thread. No one came to your defense the first, second or third time around. You are a liability to others. Being a full-blown, libtard leftist, it is not surprising in the least.

From: Bou'bound
12-Dec-21
Anyone seeing any action on late season hunts by chance?

12-Dec-21
Actually, yes, Bou.

Excited. But I didn’t post anything about an encounter that ended with the buck walking, no shot and me being jacked up.

From: drycreek
12-Dec-21
I had covid a year ago this month. In March and April I got the “vaccine”. In May I had a heart attack. Up until that point my heart doctor said my heart was good except for afib, no blockage, no problems. Draw your own conclusions but I think the so called vaccine caused the heart problems. I can’t prove me right but nobody can prove me wrong either.

From: spike78
12-Dec-21
I’ve heard of numerous heart attacks from the vaccine so I think your assumption could be correct.

12-Dec-21
Boy,

Took one yesterday.

From: rallison
12-Dec-21
Sorry for the loss of your friends, mate! A week ago I lost a friend to covid...40 years old, wife and 2 young boys at home. He was anti vax...his choice. The last week of his life was in an induced coma, on a respirator.

I'm 69, with scarring in my lungs from being enveloped in a cloud of ammonia gas in a freak farming mishap at age 17. I got the 2 dose Moderna last March, and was going to get the booster when I contracted covid prior to Thanksgiving. I was lucky! I came off isolation last Saturday and my taste and smell has returned a couple days ago.

I credit the vaccine for getting me through with no serious complications...I still have the cough, tire easy, but returned to my part time retirement job and goalie coaching for a high school hockey team.

Even then, I monitor my temp and blood oxygen levels, and will do so until the cough clears up. I'll also get the booster when I'm cleared to do so.

This stuff is no joke, it's for real! That said, I'm against government mandates and respect personal choice.

I'm a bagpiper, and have lost a lot of "lung power" over this. Where I used to blow "30 inches of water" on a chanter reed gauge, I now fight to hit 24". In speaking with other pipers, I can plan on up to 6+ months to regain that power.

Freedom of choice...I made mine, y'all make yours.

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