Why the vaccine matters
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
elkmtngear 19-Dec-21
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19-Dec-21
Repeatedly on multiple threads people ask “why should the vaccinated care if I am vaccinated or not?”

Assuming the unvaccinated are using health care services more than the vaccinated, and based on the numbers reported this is a good assumption, the unvaccinated are causing externalities/spillover costs for all others. Greater demand drives up the price and reduces availability of said services for everyone else.

So our decisions affect the entire community, and this is the basis for the argument that government does have the authority to mandate vaccinations. The government pays for Medicare/Medicaid and they are paying more due to the actions of some members of society,

I am vaccinated and boostered, but do NOT believe enough evidence exists as of yet for the government to compel vaccines or masks.

From: elkmtngear
19-Dec-21

elkmtngear's embedded Photo
elkmtngear's embedded Photo

From: BOWUNTR
19-Dec-21
Take this somewhere else... start at the southern border... Ed F

From: elkmtngear
19-Dec-21

elkmtngear's Link
Numbers actually may not justify your rationale as of recent, per the CDC (see link)

From: drycreek
19-Dec-21
I believe the so called vaccines caused my heart attack. “Vaccines” in March and April, heart attack in May. Anybody tries to mandate anymore of that chit for me is barking up the wrong tree. I also think ivermectin, in a pill form prescribed by an M. D. plus a couple other meds helped me kick covid’s ass, but the CDC and most of these cookie cutter doctors treat it like nuclear waste. You do you Frank, and I’ll do me. I’m 75 in March anyway and ain’t gonna live much longer but be damn if I’ll go out with the kung flu wearing a frickin mask.

19-Dec-21
I am not advocating anyone do anything. My only motivation was an attempt to explain why government feels they are justified with their actions. My position is based on the evidence right now, they are not. If I am advocating something, it is to make a rational decision after consulting with your doctor and your family.

From: Thornton
19-Dec-21
I just finished a 13 week ER contract in Reno County Kansas. 9 out of ten of our positive covid patients were unvaccinated. Very few met criteria to be admitted to the covid unit or ICU. That being said, I did treat a few vaccinated patients that were very ill. Also, several of my coworkers became ill for several days after the vaccine. I am still unvaccinated, and have taken another ER contract in a tiny town farther west that does not require the vaccine. I am not an antivaxxer and I do think it will help many people. I do understand that viral vaccines are not 100% effective or even close, thus the requirements for booster shots. I do enjoy informing snobby vaccinated people that yes, they can still get covid, and yes, they will have to be tested for covid before they are admitted to the hospital despite the fact they are vaccinated.

19-Dec-21
Elk, that is for the new variant only, not the history of previous variants, nor are many of the new cases needing medical care. Many of you have pointed out the new stuff is just like a cold. Who goes to the doctor for a cold? No spillovers if you don’t use the services.

We educators do a lousy job teaching critical thinking, eh?

From: elkmtngear
19-Dec-21
Another factor that seems to never make the cut, is the huge amount of Covid Survivors, most of which have immunity to handle any of the variants that come down the pipe (no "booster" needed).

Why do they get no mention, when it comes to Mandates? Apparently, they are expected to bow their heads, and file right into the pen, with all the other sheep.

We had 4 (fully vaccinated) people out with symptomatic Covid about 3 weeks ago, at my Office. The ones who didn't get it...already had it. We (the "unvaccinated") have to test weekly, so there is no guesswork here.

From: McCree
19-Dec-21
"the unvaccinated are causing externalities/spillover costs for all others." Heart disease remains the leading cause of death in the United States, it is now estimated that obesity may be equivalent to smoking as the leading cause of preventable death in America. None-the-less there is a McDonalds on every corner in the US. If spillover costs from others are the concern maybe we should focus on all the fat Americans out there thriving on feed sacks from fast food joints.

From: txhunter58
19-Dec-21
Stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results

I will give $50 to the first person who can prove they changed someone’s mind because of one of these threads. Before this moment…

YOU CANT BECAUSE IT HASN'T HAPPENED. SO:

Stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results

Like they asked Forest Gump: Hey, are you stupid or something?

From: Jeff Durnell
19-Dec-21
Anyone wishing to influence ANYthing china Flu related on me can take a lick. I'm done. Been done. Saw the truth on the wall early on. Had it. Everyone I know has had it. Epitomizing my immune system now as I did long before it even started. Zero fear. Ain't wearing a mask. Ain't "locking down". Ain't accepting any sort of "vaccine"/clot shot for any reason... seen some horrible effects on those I know. I don't care whether the jabbed care. I don't care if this authoritarian gub'ment cares. I don't care if big pharma cares. I don't care if YOU care. Their hypocrisy, bias, fear, agenda, and profit hold no significance for me. Bye Phylishia. Next subject... archery related I hope.

From: Matt-6
19-Dec-21
"government pays for Medicare/Medicaid"

Government doesn't pay for anything. Government takes money from people, and gives it to other people. If we had free market healthcare and people had to pay their own way or be denied service, incentives would be properly aligned and there'd be no problem. As it is now, we reward idiots by paying for their stupid decisions. Its like giving your dog a treat for crapping on the rug lol. Expect more crap America!

From: JohnMC
19-Dec-21
Habitat what if they tell you no more double stuffed Oreo because they are not healthy and you are going to be a burden on the health care system. There is lots of stuff they can mandate next to keep you from being a burden on the health care system. Guess it depends how much freedoms you are willing to give up. FJB

From: Matt-6
19-Dec-21
"Habitat what if they tell you no more double stuffed Oreo"

Exactly! Why cant the left understand slippery slopes?

Bring on the Soylent green lol!

19-Dec-21
I actually believe our healthcare should be priced on our behavior/excluding genetics.

But help me understand something, it SEEMS some of the same people against government mandates for Covid vaccines want that same government to take action against fat people.

Anyone…anyone willing to admit the hypocrisy on both sides? Sorry I started this, the same tired arguments broke me down.

Back to Christmas, hope you all have a great one if you celebrate it.

From: SB
19-Dec-21
Uh...the government does not pay for medicare!....we do,and have been for decades . And it dosn't cover 100% of any medical bill...the rest comes out of pocket! Is this another Liberal fairy tale?

19-Dec-21
Just for grins…

The government doesn’t pay for it, the taxpayers do, right?

So, private sector employers don’t pay their workers, their customers do then, right?

Hmmm, maybe that’s what my second least favorite president meant by “you didn’t build this”?

19-Dec-21
Habitat, for the free healthcare proponents, (Obamacare) cost has never been a concern in the past. and remember the big enchilada, (pre existing conditions).

That didn’t seem to bother them then. Why all of a sudden are someone’s risk factors measured.

Smokers, obese, alcoholics, IV drug users. AIDS patients.

Can you imagine the uproar if someone suggested that AIDS patients shouldn’t be covered if they led a risky lifestyle? I think they should get medical treatment just like everyone else. Because I care about fellow human beings. Even if they made choices I don’t agree with.

From: HDE
19-Dec-21
"If spillover costs from others are the concern maybe we should focus on all the fat Americans out there thriving on feed sacks from fast food joints."

Fast food is not the true contributor. It's inactive lifestyles and stress. Very few laborers are fat. Athletes aren't.

Sedentary and lethargic lifestyles cause pounds to add up. Stress as well as it messes up metabolic chemistry.

As far as gov't being justified, they are hardly justified in doing anything these days.

19-Dec-21
AS,

Very valid points sir. My thinking though is elective behaviors that have spillovers for others ought to be paid for by those causing them. Smoking, drug/alcohol use, high sugar diets etc. would force higher premiums. This is the intent behind the “Twinkie taxes”, which I agree with.

Conservative ideology believes we should pay for our own actions. I do separate harmful elective or by choice actions from the uncontrollables like genetics.

And yes, implementation would be messy most likely. Thanks!

From: Matt-6
19-Dec-21
"I think they should get medical treatment just like everyone else. Because I care about fellow human beings."

How about YOU pay for it then?

When evil knievel breaks 18 bones jumping over school buses, i dont want to pay those medical bills.

My philosophy is let people do whatever, but they gotta pay for their own mistakes.

From: Matt-6
19-Dec-21
"implementation would be messy most likely."

Implementation of a free market would be messy?

19-Dec-21
From a local news station this morning in Massachusetts: 2/3 of those hospitalized in MA are unvaccinated, 1/3 are vaccinated. I'm surprised to see the number of vaccinated individuals at 33%. That is far higher than any data I had read previously. I normally take the "news" with a grain of salt, but I'm not sure why they would fudge that figure.

From: Grey Ghost
19-Dec-21
"Uh...the government does not pay for medicare!....we do,and have been for decades "

Uh...I'm pretty sure Frank understands that. His point is, since we all pay for medicare/medicaid, if unvaccinated people cause medicare/medicaid costs to rise, we all wind up paying for it. So far the data suggests that's true.

That said, I'm also in the camp that thinks we don't need any more COVID threads. By this point, nobody is changing their minds, and the threads all result in the same handful of guys arguing the same uninformed opinions.

My hope is, time will prove that the vaccines served to minimize the impact of COVID, just like other highly successful vaccines have in our past. No one worries about polio, measles, mumps, rubella, etc... any more, all due to vaccines.

Not too long ago, I shared a link to a fascinating article written by a respected medical professional back when the polio vaccine was only a few years old. He was skeptical of the vaccine, and he cited lack of testing, breakthrough cases from vaccinated people, adverse reactions to the vaccine. and unknown long term side effects as reasons for his skepticism. You could have substituted "COVID" for "Polio" in his article, and it would have sounded exactly like the arguments we hear today over the COVID vaccinations. Hopefully history repeats itself.

Matt

19-Dec-21
Matt,

Yes, I think so. Healthcare is not so cut and dried. Eg, people might argue their obesity is genetics, not lifestyle or diet. That’s one reason I support higher taxes on certain products as opposed to trying to price their premiums to reflect their responsibility.

And STDs and AIDS etc, yes, it was their choice but many people throw good decision making out the window when passions run high. This would be messy, just like telling teenagers to quit having sex.

But messy is no excuse not to try.

From: Thornton
19-Dec-21
Natural immunity seems to be working for me. I've literally treated hundreds of positive covid patients over the last nearly two years, and I wore nothing more than a cheap surgical mask.

From: Ollie
19-Dec-21
The government does not pay for anything. They confiscate money from working Americans to fund their crap.

From: 2Wild Bill
19-Dec-21
"I am not advocating anyone do anything." - Pure BS!

From: peterk1234
19-Dec-21
Thank god we have a another covid thread. But okay, I will play.

Habitat for Wildlife stated, "Assuming the unvaccinated are using health care services more than the vaccinated, and based on the numbers reported this is a good assumption, the unvaccinated are causing externalities/spillover costs for all others. Greater demand drives up the price and reduces availability of said services for everyone else."

The same can be said for fat, out of shape people that eat and drink crap and never move. They are a much bigger burden than a handful of unvaccinated people. Maybe you should focus on them first.

Good lord. Will the stupidity ever stop? And let's call it what it is. It is a shot, not a vaccine. Maybe if everybody would have been truthful about that simple fact then we would not have such a divide. Oh right, you can't force people to take a shot.

From: CW
19-Dec-21

19-Dec-21

Alexis Desjardins's embedded Photo
Alexis Desjardins's embedded Photo
Looks like the shots r hurting the immunity it sure isn’t working.

From: CW
19-Dec-21

19-Dec-21
It was always about money root of evil.

19-Dec-21
Another thought I've had recently, is now that we have enough vaccines to boosterize all Americans, I can only assume that we have a large back stock of vaccines available. Considering this is a global pandemic, doesn't it make more sense to look at this more globably in terms of vaccination, than just the vax rate of our country? It seems we should be tracking those who have acquired natural immunity so we can more equitably distribute the vaccine to countries that do not have the same access as we do in the States. In my mind, it would be a better strategy to help contain a global pandemic, but big pharma would likely take a big hit to their margins if they did more distribution to less fortunate nations.

19-Dec-21
Covid is working great. Americans are spending 99% of their time arguing over forcing mandates, masks and restricting the economy and 1% solving who is responsible for creating it and making sure it never happens again.

19-Dec-21
If they can shutdown again they can make the claim for mail in ballots game over

From: BowSniper
19-Dec-21

BowSniper's embedded Photo
BowSniper's embedded Photo
Stand strong ??

From: DanaC
19-Dec-21
I take it you didn't read the Harry Potter books ;-)

From: DanaC
19-Dec-21

DanaC's embedded Photo
DanaC's embedded Photo
DanaC's embedded Photo
DanaC's embedded Photo
lmao!!!

From: DanaC
19-Dec-21
Laughing at the 'pure bloods' because the alternative is a replay of WWII when we put the Aryan terds in their place. You, being the military sage here, ought to know all about that one.

From: Poppy
19-Dec-21
Just wondering how many of ya’s get a pneumonia or flu shot and why?

From: Catscratch
19-Dec-21
Health insurance should not be mandatory and the argument that mandates increase its cost is not freedom (it may play out that way though). Mandate my wt, my exercise, my seat belts, my super-sized meal, oreo intake, etc. It's nobodies business. I'm wasn't put on this earth to save you money and vice-versa. Take care of you and yous.

From: Grey Ghost
19-Dec-21
Need I say more?

Matt

19-Dec-21
Bill,

I was totally honest. I suggest you look inward at your own heart.

From: Rub Line
19-Dec-21
First you needed a mask, then you needed to get the vac, then you needed a booster, now you need another booster. The true believers like the ass clown that originally posted this are going to look like drug addicts with all the track marks on there arms from boosters! Probably have to take it in the ass when their arms have to much scar tissue from booster. Get back to Kansas Dorothy!

19-Dec-21
Lol, yeah, that plays to the choir GG referred to, and exactly no one else.

From: bigswivle
20-Dec-21
Habitat what if they tell you no more double stuffed Oreo because they are not healthy and you are going to be a burden on the health care system.

I will go to the capitol and riot

From: sitO
20-Dec-21
How bout a Bowsite mandate on endless babble and mindless threads?

Go hunt somethin

From: APauls
20-Dec-21
Fixed vs Mech debates are much more fruitful.

You got a better chance getting a trad guy to wear Sitka than whatever these threads have become.

20-Dec-21
Grey Ghost

"Not too long ago, I shared a link to a fascinating article written by a respected medical professional back when the polio vaccine was only a few years old. He was skeptical of the vaccine, and he cited lack of testing, breakthrough cases from vaccinated people, adverse reactions to the vaccine. and unknown long term side effects as reasons for his skepticism. You could have substituted "COVID" for "Polio" in his article, and it would have sounded exactly like the arguments we hear today over the COVID vaccinations. Hopefully history repeats itself."

can you post it again please...i missed it.

20-Dec-21
Bigs,

No mandate against anything…freedom rocks.

But yes, make me pay for my behavior that causes externalities either thru higher taxes on the product or higher healthcare premiums.

This is a real conservative position, not that of a clown;-)

Kyle, I have killed enough this year, the least I can do is give you something to read while you watch nature;-)

From: Will
20-Dec-21
100%. It's safe (FACT). It helps a lot (FACT).

I'd like it to "not" be a mandate, and that people would be able to make well informed decisions based on the best available information... But, with the epic volumes of pseudoscience, misinformation and grift which has been pushed, for to many people, the ability to make a well informed decision has been stolen. And that, frankly, pisses me off... Hence my trend to grumpy irritated and frustrated comments on these sort of threads at this point. In this case, I read HFW's first post, 100% agree, he is factually correct. I've skipped over the rest, because I want to have a nice Christmas week Monday.

From: LINK
20-Dec-21
This list of vaccinated people getting Covid is stacking up in my neighborhood.

20-Dec-21
Link,

We are starting to hear more of that in my area, talk is that Omni is the culprit. Remains to be seen I guess if the vaccinated will use less healthcare services with this variant. And, let’s wait for the numbers.

Moderna announced today that their vaccine is somewhat effective against the new variant.

From: Mike in CT
20-Dec-21
I'm in agreement with those who feel these threads have reached the point of diminishing returns; that being said I see a few common misconceptions still circulate and I'll address them (hopefully for the last time).

Those who do not see any value in the vaccines continue to point to the number of cases in the vaccinated population. This misses the point in 2 ways; first and foremost the vaccines were not designed to prevent infection, they were designed to prevent serious illness and lower mortality. They have accomplished that goal even in the face of emerging variants.

The second way people misunderstand the cases in the vaccinated is a failure to recognize the design of the vaccines coupled with a failure to understand two things; first, as the % of the population that is vaccinated is substantially larger than the unvaccinated and the vaccines were not designed to stop infection it is simple math that the number of cases in the vaccinated population will be larger.

Second, people need to understand exactly what a case is; it's clear from some posts here as well as commentary in general (all forums, etc.) that too many people have the perception that a case is equal to anything beyond a person having a positive test and detectable levels of virus in them-period. Many people that are tested are in fact asymptomatic; they are getting tested as a precaution when they have been exposed as a "just in case" response. The bulk of cases in the vaccinated population that are symptomatic are only displaying mild to moderate symptoms, the former being the larger percentage.

I advised a long time ago that the focus on cases would cloud the picture; the only metrics to focus on should be hospitalizations (especially ICU bed occupancy) and mortality. On a state-by-state basis the numbers are as clear as they are striking; between 80-90% (in some states higher) of the ICU bed occupancy and mortality are in the unvaccinated population.

In the even anyone is unaware of my position on a vaccine mandate I'll repeat it; I've never been in favor of one. I have advised any who asked that this is a healthcare decision best made by them as individuals and with a trusted family physician. The risk versus reward should be weighed and only then should an informed decision be made one way or the other.

For those who feel the risk outweighs the reward I have clearly stated both full respect and support for their decision and simply advised them to take every available precaution to protect themselves and their families.

While this storm will eventually pass it will have been for naught if we do not learn some of the painful lessons this pandemic has taught us; we must keep politics out of medicine and public health discussions. If we fail to understand that one fact then we will travel down this same road again, and that would be the greatest tragedy of this pandemic.

Godspeed to all and I hope you all are and remain healthy and can enjoy the holiday season.

From: Grey Ghost
20-Dec-21
Thanks, Mike, it's always refreshing to hear from someone who is actually qualified to comment on this subject.

Have a happy and healthy holidays, my friend.

Matt

From: spike buck
20-Dec-21
In Ontario Saturday, little over 905 had covid that were "unvaccinated", 2977 "vaccinated" had tested for covid. I dont see why the "Booster" is thought needed when the first 2 doses did not keep you from getting covid. Now, most will have a mild case of covid. Who's to say it's mild only because Omnicron has lessor symptoms overall not because of the vaccine!!

20-Dec-21
Mike, thanks.

I am not trying to make a statement on the health aspects. I am totally unqualified.

My intent was to look at the disagreements between personal freedoms versus public interests, and at what point is an entity, let’s say government, justified in placing public interests over personal freedoms?

It would be great if folks could understand people can disagree on exactly when, or even if that would ever occur, instead of resorting to insults. At this point I , me alone, do not feel the government has met the burden to place mandates that restrict freedoms. But, after enough data is amassed, if vaccines, pills or whatever, prove as effective at controlling Covid as our successes with polio, smallpox etc., then my position would change even with recognition that a minor percent of the population would have severe reactions to the vaccine, pill etc. it simply is a cost/benefit analysis.

Hope this makes sense?

As with regards to threads on these types of topics, most know me as a supporter of markets. The “market” is speaking loud and clear. There are many “consumers” of these types of threads. They remain amongst the most popular. Interesting to me that those screaming the loudest about freedoms are some of those wanting to take freedoms away from posters who want to participate.

Don’t click on these types of threads, and they will die. You posting your disagreement with them is a perfect example of irony.

20-Dec-21
3X vaccinated here, and proud!

From: Joey Ward
20-Dec-21
Mike.......always appreciate your input on these type subjects......

One question though........and this is regarding this... "this is a healthcare decision best made by them as individuals and with a trusted family physician."

Have you, or anyone else here or those they know, asked about the vaccination and have had the doc advise against the shot? I'd think that scenario is an extremely rare possibility. Not likely to occur because of the liability, I'd think. Boils down to a personal decision. My wife recently had a surgery that she AND the doc agreed was necessary. The doc performing the surgery required that my wife provide proof of vax AND proof of 3 day covid test showing negative prior to surgery.

My wife, an RN with 35 years experience, and who has worked this whole pandemic, unvaxxed (her decision based on her knowledge, experience, and research) was basically forced to get the vax. This was even after the hospital issued a mandate for ALL employees to get the vax by Dec 14th........and 1 day before mandatory release without providing prove, the hospital then issued a statement recanting the mandatory issue, per gov statement. The whole shenanigan was basically a scare tactic and pissed off many of the dedicated health care professionals employed with the company that went ahead and got vaxxed because of the originally issued mandate statement and fear of release.

20-Dec-21
What part of “the vaccine doesn’t prevent someone from getting Covid” don’t some people understand?! It’s purpose is to lessen the effects if someone DOES get the virus. No wonder there’s so much divisiveness, thanks to all the misinformation that’s continually regurgitated everywhere you turn.

From: spike buck
20-Dec-21
Omnicron was said to have lessor symptoms from the start.... Being vaccinated is not why there are lessor symptoms with most of the cases now.

20-Dec-21

From: Grey Ghost
20-Dec-21
"What part of “the vaccine doesn’t prevent someone from getting Covid” don’t some people understand?!"

All of it, apparently. Or, they willingly ignore the truth.

Matt

From: Nemophilist
20-Dec-21
Fauci was caught lying by his own emails. The CDC, and the government has been lying and have been caught lying numerous times. Politicians have been caught breaking their own covid rules many times. How many times are you going to be lied to before you wake up and realize they are going to keep lying to you. It's about money and control. There are people making billions of dollars on these so-called vaccines that don't work. These people who have investments in the drug companies are laughing all the way to the bank.

From: spike buck
20-Dec-21
Matt, do you have shares in one of the vaccines??

From: Mike in CT
20-Dec-21

Mike in CT's Link
Joey,

I was not advised against getting the vaccine and I'm not personally aware of anyone I know receiving that advice. I understand the liability issue but can see some circumstances that might prompt a physician to advise against the vaccine. People with underlying heart issues might be dissuaded, particularly from the J&J vaccine. Those with autoimmune diseases (e.g. lupus) might also and I think a physician might advise caution in patients under 50 years of age in "robust health" as they would likely either only be asymptomatic or only have very mild symptoms.

I know a number of healthcare professionals who have been put in the position of having to get vaccinated or lose their job; given their likely exposure I think they should have been given the option of getting an antibody titer taken and if highly positive, exempt them from the vaccination requirement. I could agree with a re-test period, perhaps somewhere between 3-6 months.

Spike, you're not alone in drawing a misleading comparison between the US and South Africa (where Omicron has been largely mild). This is truly an apples to oranges comparison as the population of SA tends to be much younger as a whole than the US; what we know about all preceding variants and the parent strain is that the elderly are the population most at risk and the younger have consistently been asymptomatic or only had mild clinical presentations.

We're nowhere near the point of being able to assess the virulence of Omicron in our older population so vaccination offers them protection.

One last point I think needs to be addressed; the misperception that a requirement for boosters somehow equates to a vaccine being ineffective; link attached is to many very common vaccinations; pay particular attention to those that require not just 2 or 3 doses, but as many as 4 or 5. Prior to politics being injected into the discussion this reality was never the cause for concern and worse, unhealthy skepticism as it is with the COVID vaccines.

Who knew Pogo would be so prescient?

From: Nemophilist
20-Dec-21
https://rightsfreedoms.wordpress.com/2021/08/25/official-data-shows-many-more-people-have-died-due-to-the-covid-19-vaccines-in-8-months-than-people-who-have-died-of-covid-19-in-18-months/

From: spike buck
20-Dec-21
Good explanation Mike, makes sense.

From: Grey Ghost
20-Dec-21
"Matt, do you have shares in one of the vaccines??"

I'm sure at least one of my medical ETFs has shares of Moderna, Pfizer, and J&J. So yes, I guess you can say I'm indirectly invested in the vaccines, as well as all the other drugs those companies make. So what's your point?

Matt

From: Quinn @work
20-Dec-21
Come on Mike in CT. Stop posting facts on our vaccine bashing thread of misinformation about the efficacy of the vaccine. :^)

I can search the internet and find a few reports of more vaccinated people getting sick than non vaccinated people so the vaccine must be bad. :^) This is 'Merica! No one's gonna tell me what is best for me. (sarcasm)

From: Surfbow
20-Dec-21
If the Covid vaccine were a contraceptive it would be considered a massive failure...but let's go get more shots and maybe it will work! LOL...

From: Joey Ward
20-Dec-21
Thanks Mike......I guess my point is, unless someone has underlying health issues, I can see no reason asking a doc, for vax advise. It just would lead to, yes, go ahead and take it.

Personally, I see no need in paying a co-pay to have that discussion.

From: Stix
20-Dec-21
I don't rely on rumors, conspiracy theorists, or internet armchair infectious disease specialists. I listen to my doctor, who recommended to be immunized. I listen to him just like I would if I caught any other disease and his recommended treatment.

That being said, that's how I feel, and I would never support any mandate by the gov't to be vaccinated. That's an individual right, upheld by supreme court. Now if a private employer were to require vaccinations for their employees, they also have the right to this requirement. Dozens of cases like this have been approved in the federal court and appeals system, many by Trump appointed judges. What the courts did find is that local, state, and federal government cannot be the one to require private businesses to do this. They can only require this for civil service employees under their realm.

From: LINK
20-Dec-21
“ What part of “the vaccine doesn’t prevent someone from getting Covid” don’t some people understand?! It’s purpose is to lessen the effects if someone DOES get the virus. No wonder there’s so much divisiveness, thanks to all the misinformation that’s continually regurgitated everywhere you turn.”

How many people do you know that would have had it worse had they not been vaccinated? I can’t really say I know any. The vast majority barely knew they had it and weren’t vaccinated. My preacher had the disease, got vaccinated and got the disease again. He was slightly worse after having the vaccine. Anecdotal I know but I think that’s the same as people saying “ they would have had it worse” .

From: Mike in CT
20-Dec-21
Joey,

My apologies, I could have been clearer in my meaning of consulting a trusted family physician; it would be to get medical input on risk vs reward for any and all issues and certainly underlying conditions would be the main reason for soliciting medical input.

I agree with you; absent any underlying conditions anyone with a history of being in robust health could find better ways to spend the money instead of a co-pay!

From: spike78
20-Dec-21
Last year 400,000 deaths with no vaccine. This year 400,000 deaths with vaccine. So tell me what the vaccine is for?

20-Dec-21
"Last year 400,000 deaths with no vaccine. This year 400,000 deaths with vaccine. So tell me what the vaccine is for?"

how many of the deaths were among vaccinated people...there's your answer.

From: JohnMC
20-Dec-21
Mike said "comparison between the US and South Africa (where Omicron has been largely mild). This is truly an apples to oranges comparison as the population of SA tends to be much younger as a whole than the US"

I don't disagree with that but my question for you is - has Omicron been significantly milder in folks in SA than the Alpha and Deltra strains? That is a apple to apple comparison and give us a gage to what to expect here. I have not seen that do you know the answer to that?

From: spike78
20-Dec-21
Ricky if the same amount of people died before and after the vaccine came out your point is moot and makes no sense.

From: Mike in CT
20-Dec-21
"Ricky if the same amount of people died before and after the vaccine came out your point is moot and makes no sense."

Actually it makes perfect sense; when you understand R0 to begin with your realize viral diseases tend to expand exponentially. As you move farther from Patient 0 the number of potential hosts for a virus increase exponentially absent either a)some form of natural immunity, b)vaccination or c)both.

And Ricky is spot-on with bringing up which patient populations have had the greatest mortality; as I mentioned earlier a state-by-state survey will show that both the greatest percentage of ICU bed occupancy and mortality lie with the unvaccinated population.

If anyone doubts how effective the misinformation campaign has been all one has to do is look at data showing 80-90% ICU bed occupancy and mortality in the unvaccinated and note how many people question if the vaccines have worked or not.

" For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible."

From: Mike in CT
20-Dec-21
John,

It's been a mixed bag on if there's been more severe symptomology associated with the Delta variant. I'm not aware of any studies out of South Africa (that would have been very helpful!) but there are a few studies that have shown symptoms to be more severe. Outside of those most speak to the Delta variant being more infectious but not any more severe than any of the variants or the original strain.

One of the studies that did show more severe symptoms was out of Scotland though and they have a higher % of aged population than SA; I don't consider this to be a robust enough sampling to extrapolate it into risk for the US but we'll find out soon enough.

20-Dec-21
"Ricky if the same amount of people died before and after the vaccine came out your point is moot and makes no sense."

false. the number of total deaths isn't as relative as the number of deaths among the unvaccinated vs the number of deaths among the vaccinated. 2020 doesn't mean much because nobody was vaccinated. no comparison could be made. now that millions of people are vaccinated, and there are still millions of people that are not vaccinated, the comparison between the vaccinated and unvaccinated shows that the overwhelming majority of the seriously ill and dead are among the unvaccinated.

20-Dec-21
Mike,

God loves you! Thanks!!!

From: Grey Ghost
20-Dec-21
The data has consistently shown that somewhere around 9 out of 10 Covid hospitalizations and deaths are unvaccinated people. Yet, we still have some who point to the 1 in 10 exception as evidence the vaccines are ineffective. Unbelievable.

Matt

20-Dec-21
Anyone seen numbers on how many hospitalizations or deaths are people who were reinfected after recovering from covid?

From: Grey Ghost
20-Dec-21
Glunt,

I have never seen any data that tracks reinfection hospitalizations and deaths, but I'm guessing it's pretty low. As Mike stated, the fact that the vaccine mandates have ignored positive antibody tests as an alternative to getting jabbed makes absolutely no sense to me.

Matt

20-Dec-21
Ignoring natural immunity is one of the biggest reasons people are hesitant to believe many experts and policy makers.

It's likely as good or maybe much better than vaccination but doesn't allow the same lack of restrictions as being vaxxed.

That gets people's spider sense tingling.

20-Dec-21
Grey Ghost...

"Not too long ago, I shared a link to a fascinating article written by a respected medical professional back when the polio vaccine was only a few years old. He was skeptical of the vaccine, and he cited lack of testing, breakthrough cases from vaccinated people, adverse reactions to the vaccine. and unknown long term side effects as reasons for his skepticism. You could have substituted "COVID" for "Polio" in his article, and it would have sounded exactly like the arguments we hear today over the COVID vaccinations. Hopefully history repeats itself."

can you repost the link to this article please. id like to read it.

From: spike78
20-Dec-21
I guess my problem is that honestly I don’t whether to believe a word that comes out of Faucis, the media, or the CDC, or Biden’s mouth.

20-Dec-21
"Ignoring natural immunity is one of the biggest reasons people are hesitant to believe many experts and policy makers. It's likely as good or maybe much better than vaccination but doesn't allow the same lack of restrictions as being vaxxed."

you are probably right but from a population wide monitoring standpoint, vaccines are easily recorded and trackable...not so much positive cases. im not saying that natural immunity isn't equal to or better than vaccinated immunity but there is no feasible way of proving natural immunity.

20-Dec-21
All the contact tracing starts with agencies knowing an individual had Covid. Obviously untested and many asymptomatic infections aren't in the system but there is a huge database to reference to look at reinfection. Also, when someone is hospitalized I assume a prior confirmed case of Covid is usually known or inquired about.

From: Grey Ghost
20-Dec-21
Glunt,

I agree 100%. The lack of transparency about natural immunity data is the most concerning aspect of this mess, to me. There is certainly enough data available for it to be considered in decisions about vaccine mandates, but it's never mentioned in the mainstream media or from our policy makers. The only time I hear about it is from people who ask "I've recovered from Covid, and should have natural immunity, so why should I have to get vaccinated?" Nobody wants to tackle that question, and that's alarming to me.

Matt

From: Grey Ghost
20-Dec-21
Well, this may be a first. Shawn posts comments that are actually legible with good grammar, and I agree with them. Makes me wonder why most of his posts are illiterate alt-right gibberish.

You feeling OK, bud?

Matt

From: KsRancher
20-Dec-21
I pretty much agree with Shawn in most everything he says. But I truly laughed out loud at what Matt said "You feeling OK, bud?"

From: Grey Ghost
20-Dec-21
Shawn, are you vaccinated and boosted? Just wondering if your answers have changed from your previous non-existent posts.

Matt.

From: scentman
20-Dec-21
After over 60 decades on Earth I have thought over many things.. First ten, wishing I could be Joe Namath, a Beatle, Superman, and John Glenn.

10 to 15... Evil Knevial, Roger Decoster, Ken Dryden, Phil Esposito, and worrying about acne.

20's ... Myles Keller, Roger Rothar, Bruce Springsteen, and Swanson TV dinners.

30's... can't remember, Bill's four appearances at the Superbowl and the Clinton's erased my memory.

40's... started thinking of a 401k plan, health insurance, and job security.

50's... high blood pressure, pension plans, gluten.

60's... retirement, sitting on stand when the sun comes up, venison recipes, loving my wife of 22 yrs, and The Almighty looking down on me and mankind.

From: Jaquomo
20-Dec-21
Just heard on MSDNC that the entire country is "in a state of fear and anxiety" and Joebama is going to address the nation tomorrow with a stern warning to the unvaxxed. Oooohhhh... That ought to convince them.....

From: KSflatlander
20-Dec-21
“ Im a pragmatist and glass half empty critical thinking type dude.”

LMAO. I’m confident you don’t know what a pragmatist is or ever had a critical thought. I think sociopath is the word you were looking for.

“So, tell me why we do not have immunity labs at every drug store, clinic or grocery store! Funny how you can get jabbed there but get immunity check there isnt it?“

First, a titer check requires a blood draw and a lab to process/test it. Most clinics don’t even have the equipment to do the titer check in-house. They send it to labs. Second, Mike in CT already explained here that there is more to a “titer” check than just testing antibody levels. Tests vary and what’s acceptable levels is not standardized. But you’re a critical thinker so I’m sure you already consider these things.

Shawn- why do you brag about these PMs and affirmation from others? Why is this a must have for you?

Simply…because you are a follower and always have been. You need acceptance from others which is not in the list of traits for a pragmatist or critical thinker. Safe to say a QANON follower is not a critical thinker lol.

From: HDE
20-Dec-21
"Joebama is going to address the nation tomorrow with a stern warning to the unvaxxed. Oooohhhh... That ought to convince them....."

And it will be as annoying as the mosquito buzzing around at 2 a.m. on a warm summer night...

From: RK
20-Dec-21
Sociopath ? Really KS?

Pretty sure you don't have a grasp on any of this either BUT. lmao anyway.

From: Stix
20-Dec-21
Covid and treatment further polarizing every aspect of America.

From Hydroxychloroquine, to UV exposure to injecting disinfectants to Ivermectin. Bashing those who chose to get vaccine and those who don't. Bashing the medical community for following protocols. Anti-vaxers, pro-vaxers.

Politics further divisive. Suspected rapists with outstanding warrant shot with gun thought was taser. Election fraud, or maybe not. Revenge tour 2024. Winter of death. Rioters & Looters are protesters.

Bowhunters attacking fellow bowhunters over politics.

Mission accomplished. I'll be surprised if humanity pulls out of these times.

Maranatha!

From: Jaquomo
20-Dec-21
Stix, you might be the winner. Except you forgot wolves. ;-). Humanity will certainly adapt and evolve to whatever comes down the pike. There will be some readjustments and realignments and it may be ugly at times, but most of society will adjust in one way or the other.

Politically, things will look very different in 18 years, in one direction or the other. But we will survive.

20-Dec-21
They've had plenty of time to setup standardized titer testing.I think they ignored it expecting the vaccine was the answer.Ive had the titer test as part of my regular Dr visit labwork.A big company like Quest could handle it.

From: Stix
21-Dec-21
Jaq, This ain't humanity anymore....just one big cuckoo clock.

From: azelkhntr
21-Dec-21
I hadn't heard of this till today. Guess the cows are coming home.

https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/gates-fauci-and-daszak-charged-with-genocide-in-court-filing/article_76c6081c-61b8-11ec-ae59-7718e6d063ed.html

From: Treeline
21-Dec-21
The lack of critical thinking with respect to Covid brings to question human intelligence on a global scale.

From: DanaC
21-Dec-21

DanaC's embedded Photo
DanaC's embedded Photo

From: AZ8
21-Dec-21

AZ8's embedded Photo
AZ8's embedded Photo

From: buc i 313
21-Dec-21
Being an old and long time bow hunter I can make a few observations of some of these posts.

This being said, for those who do not believe in the science or the statistics of the severity of covid-19 or it's variant's you just keep on believing it is hog wash, or a government plot to control us or what other wild though you can come up with you just keep on believing this silliness !

When this disease knocks on your door (heaven forbid) and strikes you or one of your loved one's or a close friend then perhaps just perhaps you may have a rational reaction of Covid's deadliness.

Hopefully it never happens to you or yours.

Remember if it takes one of our brother or sister bow hunters it will just leave one less hunter to compete with !

Now my last comment is in jest, so before you get your panties waxed up you need to read some of the comments posted here.

Asking yourself, am I really this unhinged, do I look as dumb as I write or do I have any compassion or ethic's ?

Sick humor is just as stated.

SICK !!!

Let us get back to a hunting forum that WE ALL can enjoy .

From: Orion
22-Dec-21
Saw this on another thread the guy has some good points.

"Why is it that nearly two years into covid we still dont have a treatment for those get ill with covid? There aren't multiple global studies going on to prove or disprove possible treatments. There are no treatment protocols from Johns Hopkins, Mayo Clinic, Havard Medical, etc, pre hospitalization. I just dont get it. We dont treat any other illness this way. Two good friends of mine tested positive last week and one of my sons today. All three were told to go home and if they got really bad to go to the ER and ask for monoclonal antibodies. SMDH."

From: midwest
22-Dec-21
Orion, That came from Joe Rogan's podcast with Dr. Peter McCullough.

22-Dec-21
Orion’s quote is spot on. Only treatment is hospitalization by most Dr’s and medical organizations. They have treatments that work, prescribe them to people that test positive at home and the hospitalization rate would drop significantly. Once your in the ER, you’re just about fooked because it’s way past the time that it should’ve been dealt with. Makes zero sense to wait until you’re knocking on death’s door before getting some sort of treatment. Antibodies or any of the drugs that the news has deemed not safe actually seem to work in the majority of people that actually got them. Literally makes zero sense to me why as a developed country we wait until the last second to treat people for this. Not for or against vaccine but should be individual choice, as well as honesty about the potential side effects of the vaccine and the seriousness of those as well.

From: Tilzbow
22-Dec-21
I just read this:

Walter Reed military scientists test vaccine that could protect against Omicron

Scientists at the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research spent nearly two years developing a COVID-19 vaccine that should protect against the new Omicron variant, plus all past and presumably future SARS-origin coronaviruses, Defense One reported Tuesday. The Spike Ferritin Nanoparticle (SpFN) vaccine showed promising results in animal trials and Phase 1 human trials that wrapped up this month; it still must undergo Phase 2 and Phase 3 human trials. "We decided to take a look at the long game rather than just only focusing on the original emergence of SARS, and instead understand that viruses mutate," said Dr. Kayvon Modjarrad, director of Walter Reed's infectious diseases branch. "Our platform and approach will equip people to be prepared for that."

From: Grey Ghost
22-Dec-21

Grey Ghost's Link
As I understand it, Pfizer and Merck have developed early Covid treatment pills that are only a fews days away from getting FDA approval. Apparently they both have proven very effective in clinical trials.

Matt

From: KSflatlander
22-Dec-21
“Makes zero sense to wait until you’re knocking on death’s door before getting some sort of treatment.”

Yep, like getting a vaccine as a preventative to stay away from deaths door.

“Once your in the ER, you’re just about fooked because it’s way past the time that it should’ve been dealt with.”

Spot on. Another good reason to get the vaccine and boosters. You can get vaccines way before you contract Covid and it greatly reduces the chance you need the ER. Makes total sense.

Azelkhntr- a shining example of what happens to the gullible on social media. The most unpatriotic thing is to spread misinformation.

From: ohiohunter
22-Dec-21
To the overbearing proVaxxer Karens in the room. What do you think about the adverse effects of the vax, including death? ie.. Kyle Warner. A few colleagues of mine have noticed some higher than normal occurrences of soft plaque and thickening of valves in vaxed patients, both of which will shorten your lifespan, how would you explain this? I suspect pro vaxers and anti vaxers fall into slightly different political spectrums, I could be wrong. Just b/c you've been forced or duped into vaxxing doesn't necessarily make you provaxx.

Furthermore, what impact will these mRNA drugs have on a patients future? Do most of you know the role of mRNA? Why is the CV vax an mRNA drug while the flu vax is still a traditional vaccine? BTW, where did the flu go?

From: Mike in CT
22-Dec-21

Mike in CT's Link
Given the plethora of reliable information on morbidity and mortality between the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations it's nothing short of astonishing that there are still some who insist that the unvaccinated are not dying.

The fact is they are and they are dying in numbers that significantly dwarf the vaccinated population.

The link is an excellent presentation of the realities I just described. For the US Section I'm sure there will be some who note that the data is published by the CDC and immediately deploy the straw man argument that the CDC is not to be trusted so this data must be inaccurate.

The CDC does report the data but they do not generate the data; this comes from each states Department of Health and they get the data from each healthcare entity (e.g. hospitals) who are required, by law to complete a reportable disease form.

The data is rock solid and the evidence couldn't be clearer.

From: KSflatlander
22-Dec-21

KSflatlander's Link
Ohiohunter- the answers to your questions are easily found on credible websites and in peer reviewed scientific/medical journals. See attached.

Some Karens actually have degrees in biology and microbiology and fully understand what mRNA does and doesn’t do…is and isn’t. Based on your questions, it appears that you don’t know the role of mRNA in cell processes.

Deaths due to the vaccine…I think risk of death from Covid far outweigh the risk of death from the vaccine. That’s easily verifiable if you care to look. Seatbelts have killed people but we adults understand risk assessment and know our odds of living through a car accident is far better with a seatbelt on. It’s so overwhelming that we as a society made it law that you must wear a seatbelt.

The flu…it makes perfectly logical sense the flu cases dropped considerably when using mitigation efforts (masks, social distancing, canceling public events and spaces, etc.) as flu is a communicable disease (spread person to person). If we limit contact with others (like we did for Covid) other communicable disease would also drop. How do you not get that?

“A few colleagues of mine have noticed some higher than normal occurrences of soft plaque and thickening of valves in vaxed patients, both of which will shorten your lifespan, how would you explain this?”

Please provide credible evidence that the Covid vaccines caused soft plaque and thickening of valves. Thank goodness we do not rely on anecdotal data for medical and scientific conclusions. How do you know the vaccine caused these issues?

From: Grey Ghost
22-Dec-21
For the record, boys, Mike in CT has 30 years of experience in virology and infectious diseases. From what I understand, he consults some of the largest medical facilities in the New York area. He's also very conservative politically, a great Christian and family man, and a good bow hunter. He's been one of the most respected Bowsite members for over 20 years.

IMO, you can take what he says about this topic to the bank, instead of believing memes and other social media nonsense.

Mike, please correct me, if I've misrepresented you or your credentials.

Matt

From: ohiohunter
22-Dec-21
Karenflatlander... The fact you took my blanket post personally is fascinating and even more fascinating is you think I am genuinely interested in finding formal "google" answer to the questions. I could careless if you're vaxxed, muslim, catholic, gay... etc.... don't impose your convictions on others.

By all means, please identify what in my post precluded your assumption of my knowledge?

From: Jaquomo
22-Dec-21
Our doctor just gave us prescriptions for ivermectin, hydroxychloroquin, and a Z-Pac to keep on hand at home in case we develop symptoms. She said the testing is so inaccurate that we shouldn't bother, just get on the prescribed dosage regimen as soon as we feel something resembling the symptoms.

I chose to get the shots because I have asthma and another underlying incurable pulmonary issue, and if the virus got into my lungs it may very well kill me. So I'm covering all the bases, for me, personally. What someone else does is their business, between them and their doctor, not the government.

From: KSflatlander
22-Dec-21
“knowledge you haven’t yet acquired or refuse to consider or accept is not “misinformation”.“

Well it sure the hell isn’t fact as you portray it. Nearly everyone of your posts can be traced back misinformation meme and social media posts. You never ever post any scientific evidence links to back up anything you say…because it’s MISINFORMATION a.k.a FALSE. Knowingly spreading misinformation (as you are doing) has consequences and is unpatriotic. If you disagree then go look at the capital on January 6th and see how many QAnon flags, banners, and t-shirts you can count. QAnon…a public IQ test and branding.

22-Dec-21
What I would like to see is this stat:

Covid hospitalizations and deaths comparing unvaccinated who have never had Covid previously vs unvaccinated who have previously had and recovered from Covid

Plenty of data showing that vaccinated are doing better than unvaxxed. I want to know how natural immunity does vs nothing.

If it's as good or better than how the vaccinated are doing vs unvaxxed, that's important information when weighing whether or not to get vaxxed.

Vaccinations have some risk. So far pretty small but if beating Covid is as good or better, those that have beat it could use more info.

It seems like a huge puzzle piece to me but doesn't seem to be focused on when looking at data coming out. It's all vaxxed vs unvaxxed.

From: Bou'bound
22-Dec-21
Is there any correlation between vaccination rates and crossbow usage

From: ohiohunter
22-Dec-21
Glunt, that information probably isn't even considered or collected b/c it doesn't fit the agenda. At what point is incomplete data considered misinformation?

KarenFL... you've not answered anything... please inform the less informed.

From: KSflatlander
22-Dec-21
Ohiohunter- nice strawman argument shift.

“The fact you took my blanket post personally is fascinating and even more fascinating is you think I am genuinely interested in finding formal "google" answer to the questions.“

We’re you inferring your post to me or not? If no, who are these overbearing provaxxer Karen’s you speak of? You don’t want answers to your questions then don’t post them on a DISCUSSION thread. Seriously, I don’t get the statement LMAO. You have questions but could care less to get answers?

“I could careless if you're vaxxed, muslim, catholic, gay... etc.... don't impose your convictions on others.”

Another strawman. At no point did I say I was or was not vaxxed nor was the discussion about my vaccine status.

“I could careless if you're vaxxed, muslim, catholic, gay... etc.... don't impose your convictions on others.“

Strawman again but the feeling is mutual. So only you can express your opinion here but not me? If you want to challenge anything I’ve posted have at it. It doesn’t change the fact that risk of death in contracting Covid vs vaccine is clear. Mike from CT has discussed this many times.

“By all means, please identify what in my post precluded your assumption of my knowledge?“

I could ask you the same thing…overbearing provaxxer Karen’s. You’re the one who asked the question now your offend you got replies. I’m going to start calling you the x-wife as you make about as much sense. See my previous posts and you can clearly see where I got my assumption about your knowledge. Where did the flu go…seriously?

From: Jaquomo
22-Dec-21
I'm waiting for data on masked vs. unmasked cases, hospitalizations, etc.. If they can collect that info on vaxxed vs unvaxxed, they certainly can ask the masking questions. Perhaps a reason for that?

Also curious about why politicians can pick and choose when to mask, while demanding the rest of us be masked in public. Do they have some special immunity? That image of unmasked Creepy Joe bending over and sniffing that little unmasked boy's hair in KY last week tells us all we need to know about the hypocrisy behind mask mandates.

From: Grey Ghost
22-Dec-21

Grey Ghost's Link
Glunt,

Since you and I last beat the natural immunity drum, I've been doing some reading. The link above is an article from John Hopkins that cites 4 different studies, all of which conclude getting the vaccine after you've recovered from Covid provides additional protection beyond the natural immunity. Below are links to all 4 studies. I know most people here won't take the time to read any of this information because they are used to getting their information from memes. But, you seem genuinely interested in finding the truth, as am I, so I thought this information may interest you.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/vaccine-induced-immunity.html#anchor_1635539757101

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34383732/

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7044e1.htm?s_cid=mm7044e1_w

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/9/21-1042_article

Matt

From: ohiohunter
22-Dec-21
Typical. Cherry pick irrelevant statements (not questions) and never address the relevant material, but unlike you I will respond to your last statement.. Its simple, "overbearing provaxxer Karens" is broad.. yet you responded. Kind of like yelling hey dumbass and you look up... well this time you definitely looked up. How about you try again.

From: KSflatlander
22-Dec-21

KSflatlander's Link
Glunt- great questions I would like to know the answers to also so I did a quick search. The link has some info from John Hopkins et. al.

“Vaccines add protection.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) released a report on Oct. 29, 2021, that says getting vaccinated for the coronavirus when you’ve already had COVID-19 significantly enhances your immune protection and further reduces your risk of reinfection.

A study published in August 2021 indicates that if you had COVID-19 before and are not vaccinated, your risk of getting re-infected is more than two times higher than for those who got vaccinated after having COVID-19.

Another study published on Nov. 5, 2021, by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) looked at adults hospitalized for COVID-like sickness between January and September 2021. This study found that the chances of these adults testing positive for COVID-19 were 5.49 times higher in unvaccinated people who had COVID-19 in the past than they were for those who had been vaccinated for COVID and had not had an infection before.

A study from the CDC in September 2021 showed that roughly one-third of those with COVID-19 cases in the study had no apparent natural immunity.”

My wife had Covid a few weeks ago and were wondering if she should get a booster. It appears the science says “yes” get a booster even if you have had Covid. But I should do some more digging to understand the results of the studies. I wonder how long to wait to get a booster after you had Covid?

Oops…looks like GG beat me to it.

From: KSflatlander
22-Dec-21
Overbearing antivaxxer Karen

I did reply to your questions. Anyone can clearly see that. But if it makes you feel better lol.

Maybe I misunderstood you. What was the point of your original post so I don’t have to make any assumptions?

From: Mike in CT
22-Dec-21
Data on masked vs unmasked would be difficult, if not impossible to correlate with disease. For instance, you'd have no way of tracking exposures in either population and that would be the first important data point in getting a baseline to base any extrapolations on.

It's much easier to track cases (infections, whether asymptomatic, mild or severe), hospitalizations (and drill down to ICU bed occupancy) and mortality as we have a robust reporting system in place already. Patient histories will provide insight into exposures, past infection/suspected infection, etc and reportable disease data shows the rates of hospitalizations and mortality well.

Likewise it's difficult to track infected & recovered versus either vaccinated or unvaccinated as those with asymptomatic infections or so mildly symptomatic they sought no medical treatment don't go into the system so we lose a large set of data points in any possible comparison.

If you had the means to determine antibody levels in the unvaccinated who had an infection (assuming they realize they had one) you'd have a starting point but you wouldn't have the complete body of data to make a meaningful comparison.

We can safely say that recovery from infection (especially moderate to severe) is a good predictive indicator of a robust immune response and as natural immunity includes a cell-mediated response it's highly probably this population would have good protection against most of the current strains with the possible exception of the omicron variant (due to limited data to date).

Those were good questions by the way, I hope I helped a little in my response!

Matt,

Thanks again for the kind words and you didn't misrepresent anything!

From: Old School
22-Dec-21
Mike - always appreciate your input. Thanks for posting solid medical advice.

From: Orion
22-Dec-21
Mike curious about your take on this and why the pill was needed when Zinc and Ivermectin may actually do the same thing?

The new Pfizer pill is a protease inhibitor that inhibits viral cell replication. Zinc does that as well when it can get into a cell. HCQ helps transport zinc into cells so it can do its thing. Ivermectin has protease inhibitor properties as well as a bunch of other things that may contribute to its success in fighting COVID.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s414...491-6/tables/1

From: KSflatlander
22-Dec-21
Orion- FYI the website you posted is broken.

22-Dec-21
This thread has changed folks’ minds…finally!

;-)

From: Stix
22-Dec-21
Actually Bou'bound's last post is the only one that shouldn't be deleted. I didn't hear a correlation between vaccine and crossbows, but I did hear there is a correlation with injecting disinfectants and crossbows.

From: spike78
22-Dec-21
CDC website says over 10,000 people dead from the vaccine. Yeah such a minuscule number compared to the number vaccinated. Insert roll eyes here.

From: ohiohunter
22-Dec-21
Spike, and those are just deaths. What about other impairments? I highly doubt those are tabulated. Example.. Kyle Warner professional mtb'r: 1 month post vax developed pericarditis and pots which ended his career. Cardiac arrest all time high among soccer players.. just sayin.

22-Dec-21
Soccer players aren’t that tough. And some are probably faking it like injuries in their matches.

Good thing real football is dominated by tough guys like Kapernick.

;-)

From: Grey Ghost
22-Dec-21
"CDC website says over 10,000 people dead from the vaccine. "

No it doesn't. Here is what it actually says.

"Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. More than 485 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through December 13, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 10,483 reports of death (0.0022%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. CDC and FDA clinicians review reports of death to VAERS including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records."

I know reading comprehension, math, and statistics are hard, but do you realize how statistically insignificant 0.0022% is?

Matt

From: spike78
22-Dec-21
Really Matt so 10000 plus deaths are insignificant? How many of those 10,000 were actually going to die from Covid? Try telling the families that it’s JUST insignificant.

From: Grey Ghost
22-Dec-21
I never said any death was insignificant, Brad.

But when the data shows you are more likely to die from a lighting strike than from the vaccines, I think it speaks for itself. The fact that you continue to spread lies, fear, and misinformation about the vaccines also speaks for itself.

BTW, how's your $120-125K Bit Coin price by the end of the year prediction working out for you? Feel free to admit you were wrong, and I was right on that bet.

Matt

From: KSflatlander
22-Dec-21
Where are you getting 10,000 confirmed deaths from the vaccine? Can you post a source?

From: Grey Ghost
22-Dec-21

Grey Ghost's Link
Ryan,

I quoted what the CDC has actually posted about post vaccine deaths above. See link.

Brad's attempt to mis-represent the information is a classic example of someone who gets his talking points from memes that his Facebooger buddies send him.

Matt

From: Stix
22-Dec-21
"How many of those 10,000 were actually going to die"

Every single one of them. Maybe not from Covid, but all will die.

23-Dec-21
You just have to have enough sense to put (and keep) all of this in perspective… Pretty safe bet at this point that more people have been vaccinated than have had the virus, and deaths among the vaccinated at 10.5 K are just a very small fraction of deaths reported in connection with infection.

“ How many of those 10,000 were actually going to die from Covid?”

That is not the pertinent question. The question is, how many of the people who received those 485 million doses could be expected to die from a Covid infection if they were not vaccinated?

In (REALLY) round numbers, we have about 300 million people in the US, so figure the 485 million doses went to about 2/3 of the population… So that’s 10 1/2 thousand dead out of about 200 million versus 3/4 million dead out of the remaining 100 million… Does that sound about right? Just in really round numbers…

I guess the most important thing about gambling is understanding the odds.

And just for the record… Don’t forget for a minute that the entire Trump clan has been vaccinated and even The Donald has encouraged others to get their shots… as I recall, He Himself considers the quick rollout of the vaccine to be a personal triumph, so you know it must be a good thing, because The Donald would never lie to you…

From: pav
23-Dec-21
I typically read this debate much more than post...primarily because I've been pro choice on the matter since day one (but reevaluating as we speak). Yes, I am vaccinated. My wife is not vaccinated.

Last night, I learned that my daughter's surgery, scheduled for next Tuesday, has been cancelled. My daughter is a RN at a local hospital and the hospital is currently busting at the seams with Covid patients. All scheduled surgeries have been cancelled until further notice. As of last night, according to admission records, every Covid patient currently admitted to that hospital is NOT vaccinated. There are zero vaccinated patients being treated for Covid in that facility.

I don't bring this up to debate the vaccine itself. I bring this up because people (vaccinated and not vaccinate) are being denied proper medical attention (including life saving surgeries) due to Covid...and the sheer numbers of non vaccinated individuals crowding hospitals.

I've read reports of vaccinated individuals landing in the hospital with Covid. Accurate or not, at least those people did what they could to avoid hospitalization. I have a difficult time believing these unfortunate people contribute a significant percentage of the total.

The title of this thread is, Why the vaccine matters. It matters because of all the non-Covid related patients being denied medical attention because of Covid. Whether they had the virus or not, people dying from delays for heart bypass, cancer treatment, organ transplants, etc... are actually Covid victims, right?

These delays hit home for me personally because I was fortunate to have life extending surgery in March 2020...mere days before Covid shut down surgeries the first time. I would be in a much different place right now had that procedure been delayed. At the time, shutting down was unavoidable. Times have changed...options are available...but we're still shutting down.

To be clear, my daughter's surgery delay is not life threatening, she will just have to deal with her pain for awhile longer. Not sure why I took the time to post this...because even my own wife remains adamant against getting vaccinated. I'm not changing anyone's mind, just speaking my own.

From: bigeasygator
23-Dec-21
Spot on, Pav. While it’s good to hear your daughter’s surgery is not life threatening, unfortunately that has not been the case for all - there are numerous examples of individuals being denied life saving medical care because hospital capacity has been taken up by COVID patients. And one doesn’t have to look too far to see who is taking up that capacity (it’s not the vaccinated). Unfortunately, there still are 40% of the people in this country who either ignore or don’t care about the safety and efficacy data and choose not to vaccinate against this disease, so the pool of potential ER and ICU patients is still deep.

From: KSflatlander
23-Dec-21
Thanks GG. The CDC link says:

“During this time, VAERS received 10,483 reports of death (0.0022%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. CDC and FDA clinicians review reports of death to VAERS including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records.“

It doesn’t say anywhere that all 10,500 deaths were confirmed due to Covid. As you pointed out, stating that all VEARS reported deaths as confirmed is a misrepresentation of the data. Even if your making this wrong assumption, dying from Covid vs from the vaccine is an easy risk assessment. You have a much higher chance of dying from Covid than from the vaccine. This is true for all age groups. It’s pretty simple math.

If you don’t want to get the vaccine then don’t. It’s your choice. But don’t try to rationalize it based on false or misrepresented data from memes and social media. That’s not a good idea when it comes to public or personal health decisions.

Anyone have a credible link to the actual confirmed deaths from the vaccine?

From: KSflatlander
23-Dec-21
Sillystring/Shawn Magyar- no doubt Paxlovid is a big deal and will help fight Covid. I’m not a doctor but I’m confident that doctors will always recommend a preventative (vaccine) vs therapeutics (Paxlovid). Paxlovid is not not meant to be a replacement for the vaccine.

So much for critical thinking.

From: Mike in CT
23-Dec-21

Mike in CT's Link
Ryan,

The number of confirmed deaths from the vaccines is quite small (from linked article):

"Continued monitoring has identified nine deaths causally associated with J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccination. CDC and FDA continue to review reports of death following COVID-19 vaccination and update information as it becomes available."

As has been addressed VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System) allows anyone to file a report; all reports are then reviewed and adjudicated by a team of medical professionals. It should come as no surprise that those who are most stridently anti-vaccine would misrepresent VAERS statistics as confirmed vaccine-caused deaths.

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-21
Hey Mike in CT,

What's your thoughts on blood types contributing to the severity of Covid symptoms? I've read several articles that suggest the less common blood types, like A and AB, are more prone to a severe symptoms. And from my own anecdotal evidence, there seems to be some validity to this. Thoughts?

Matt

From: KSflatlander
23-Dec-21
Thanks Mike. Always appreciate your posts. Also thanks for all your work on the front lines of this pandemic. Much appreciated.

From: DanaC
23-Dec-21

DanaC's embedded Photo
DanaC's embedded Photo
Shawn, you'll be the first to condemn those same countries as 'socialist'. But their medical data gathering and reporting is impeccable?

From: Mike in CT
23-Dec-21

Mike in CT's Link
Matt,

I'd say at this point it's still unclear; there were a number of studies that seemed to suggest a link and historically we've known that surface antigens on red blood cells have acted as receptors or co-receptors for not only some viral diseases but bacterial and parasite-caused diseases as well.

The link is to another study that some suggest has closed the door on this possible link; my opinion is this serves to underscore the need for a well designed RCT to look at a potential link.

From: KSflatlander
23-Dec-21
Sillystring/Shawn Magyar- by your post it’s clear that you don’t understand what VAERS is. It is unverified “raw” data. To figure out if there are side effects of vaccines you have to start with all incidents that my be related (raw data). This is a must. Then you filter the raw data through verification and statistical analysis to see if the post-vaccine effects were random or statistically significant. This is the same for most scientific research.

You ok? Where did those self-professed critical thinking skills go?

From: LBshooter
23-Dec-21
Regardless of what resources are used by who, the one fact remains and that is we live in a free country. So your free to say yes or no to a drug shot into your body, period. The Supreme Court will be hearing this mandate bs next week I believe and they will shoot this mandate down. It's amazing to me how the liberals who all fight for a woman's right to choose now want to dictate to the people that they have to take a shot lol only in America. 2022 can't get here fast enough to slautgher liberals out of office and 2024 with a new president who knows what day it is.

23-Dec-21
On a side note…

I facilitate our Business Advisory Board at my community college. The Board is comprised of private sector leaders who advise us of curriculum changes they see are needed as part of their commitment to the community.

For better than two years they are wanting our course work to have more data analytics. They have expressed the need for graduates to be able to compile and interpret raw data in a useful manner that allows proper conclusions to be formulated.

After reading threads like this, I agree… more training in this area ought to be required.

From: 70lbdraw
23-Dec-21
"If you don’t want to get the vaccine then don’t. It’s your choice. But don’t try to rationalize it based on false or misrepresented data from memes and social media. That’s not a good idea when it comes to public or personal health decisions."

The only rationale I need is the fact that I'm free to choose for myself. Its nobody else's business as far as I'm concerned. All of the facts and science coming from the bowlibs hasn't swayed me a bit...but then again, I've never regretted ignoring anything the liberals have tried to push.

From: Huntiam
23-Dec-21
Hot dam y’all go stick something boys…Corona it’s all about money and power…has been since the beginning open your eyes

From: TreeWalker
23-Dec-21
Long Covid is destroying many more lives than severe, lasting reactions to the shot. Buddy of mine has a BIL that spent over 100 days in hospital, "survived" but without a double lung transplant is expected to die in less than 5 years. 40 year old, very good health pre-infection, not vaccinated by choice after doing his research. His BIL is now a dead man walking as is no longer eligible for transplant due to other persistent issues from his infection. The BIL was full of piss and vinegar at every family gathering for 14 months then got Covid. His body, his choice, his death sentence. He used a lot of hospital resources and his family now how to watch this play out for the upcoming months or years. Sometimes the screw around and find out is not as good a path in retrospect.

From: KSflatlander
23-Dec-21
“The only rationale I need is the fact that I'm free to choose for myself. Its nobody else's business as far as I'm concerned.”

Agreed. However, if public health is involved there has to be a balance. What if the next pandemic had a 10% death rate? What about 20 or 30%. Do you still agree that the government plays no role in a public health crisis involving a contagion? You should not have the individual freedom to walk around in public with a communicable disease (if the risk of death is high enough) when it can affect the personal health of others. Your freedom does not trump my right to live. We already do this with HIV. It is against the law to not disclose that you are HIV+ and have sex with a partner. Why isn’t 70lbdraw up in arms over this law? Personal freedom right? Also, there is still a choice with the mandates…quit/fired or go through rigorous testing. I’m not aware of anyone being strapped to a table and involuntarily given the vaccine (forced). If anyone gets, or doesn’t get, the vaccine it is still their choice although they may not like the consequences. Also, private employers still can make vaccine a requirement of employment to ensure a safe work environment. I agree with that. You can choose not to work there.

“All of the facts and science coming from the bowlibs hasn't swayed me a bit...but then again, I've never regretted ignoring anything the liberals have tried to push.”

Facts are not “coming” from anyone. Facts are just facts that come from science. True facts are not liberal or conservative. Alternate facts…well that’s a different story. Agreed that the left and the right can spin, misinform, or lie about “facts.” If that is the case then they are not facts…it’s misinformation. If you look at the true facts with the vaccine and your conclusion is that you shouldn’t get it then you likely are not being honest with yourself. You’re letting public politics decide your personal health choices.

As Mike in CT says, consult your doctor. Ask them if you should get the vaccine. Regardless of the answer ask them to explain why. If you go against their advice and explanation as to why then it’s all on you. And that is your right with this current pandemic. If the death rate was higher then I would hope the government would step in to protect public health. But I agree it is a fine line that should be guided by our public health experts…collectively.

From: 70lbdraw
23-Dec-21
"You should not have the individual freedom to walk around in public with a communicable disease (if the risk of death is high enough) when it can affect the personal health of others."

The flu can kill, yet, we dont have mandates for it. You could very well be spreading the flu without knowing it. What's the difference? Contracting AIDS is a choice as well. Abstinence and avoiding inter-vienous drugs is a good start. But that's just common sense.

From: ahunter76
23-Dec-21

ahunter76's embedded Photo
ahunter76's embedded Photo
This is me...I did it all 2 shots, booste & THEN got COVID.. Mild syptoms, scratchy throat. I am in the "very old" vulnerable age. I think our health leaders have NO FRIGGINN IDEA what they are doing.

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-21
Thanks Mike,

From my informal polls with people who have struggled with Covid, and who knew their blood types, inevitably they are A or AB. For example, my best friends type AB wife got Covid and was down for about 2 weeks. They took no precautions to protect my buddy who is type O. They continued to eat and sleep together, and share the same living spaces, etc...without any PPE while she was sick. My buddy never caught the virus. I've heard dozens of similar stories. On the other hand, I've heard just as many stories of the virus spreading like wildfire thru entire families after only a brief encounter with an infected individual.

I understand that everyone's immune systems are different, some more robust than others, but I feel there has to be some genetic factor, beyond the individual's immune systems, that is at play. But, I'm just a curious onlooker with no formal medical background, so.......

Matt

From: Mike in CT
23-Dec-21
Matt,

The key point is that you describe yourself as a "curious onlooker"; I can't emphasize enough how important I feel it is (especially when social media can amplify misinformation!) to be naturally curious and to seek answers.

People like you tend to weigh all available information and not consider the source but how solid the information presented is when challenged. This topic in particular I've encouraged everyone who's asked me to get all information, pro and con and not just look for information that supports your position.

I'd rather be proven wrong and learn something than look to validate a belief that may be completely off-base.

Keep questioning and stay curious-those are the traits of a good scientist by the way.....

From: midwest
23-Dec-21
"This is me...I did it all 2 shots, booste & THEN got COVID.. Mild syptoms, scratchy throat. I am in the "very old" vulnerable age."

In other words, the vaccine did what it was supposed to.

From: KSflatlander
23-Dec-21
“The flu can kill, yet, we dont have mandates for it. You could very well be spreading the flu without knowing it. What's the difference.”

COVID is about 10 times deadlier.

“Contracting AIDS is a choice as well. Abstinence and avoiding inter-vienous drugs is a good start. But that's just common sense.“

With HIV it is your choice of you choose to have sex. But nobody directly choose to get HIV. That’s just silly. If you believe that then everyone chose to get COVID by being around people including family and friends. You know this logic holds no water.if someone in the U.S. contracted Ebola your response would be for the patient to do as they please. Or would you prefer the government mandate they stay isolated to protect public health?

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-21
"So the question becomes; what are the jabs really doing?"

Your question has been asked and answered thousands of times with solid data to back the answers up. You just refuse to believe the facts because of your biased partisan blindness.

The vaccines have proven to reduce the risk of severe symptoms and death from Covid by at least a factor of 10-15 times. That fact is indisputable based on mountains of available data.

Are the vaccines perfect? No. None of them are for any disease. I also suspect the Covid vaccines will continue to evolve, just like other vaccines have in the past. The current Polio vaccines, for example, are different than Dr. Salk's original formulation. The flu vaccines change every year based on the medical community's best information on what strain of flu will be prevalent. None of them are 100% effective in preventing disease, but they have proven to help for decades.

Matt

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-21
I'm so glad we have medical experts like azelkhntr to help us sift thru the information. He's truly an asset to our community and we are blessed to have him. (dripping sarcasm off)

Hey az, what is your professional background and education, BTW? Was the 3rd grade the longest 5 years of your life? ;-)

Matt

From: ohiohunter
23-Dec-21
Throughout this entire thread the only thing parroted is reduced symptoms and reduced mortality rates, great, but at what risk? Zero information beyond.

The seat belt analogy is fantastic. How about this.. I'll never be in a car accident if I never get in a car, but thats a risk I'm willing to take. I know what potentially lies ahead of me if I contract CV, I do not know what awaits me with the jab.

Since there seems to be some experts on the topic here... well.. 1 and pseudo 2. What are the potential long term effects of mRNA drugs? Why does the vax have to be (adimently) mRNA based instead of a traditional vaccine? Would you vax your adolescent kids when mortality rates are vastly different for varying age groups? Myocarditis seems to be a fairly common side effect, I'd rather take my chances with 99.7% survival rate than the absolutely unknown or a poor quality of life from here on out... if need be I'll gladly lay in a coffin for my convictions.

** if mRNA vs trad vax is preferred simply due to production rates.. is a trad vax in the works?

From: KSflatlander
23-Dec-21
I’m not falling for the okie dok again. You will just straw man it again and your only point will be Someone answered a question you posted as “general.” In addition, you have already stated you don’t want answers to questions. They are all rhetorical. ;)

From: ohiohunter
23-Dec-21
Karen... you've done nothing but skirted questions and parroted Mike. So, no I'm not interested in your pseudo intellect... not one bit. Steal someone else's oxygen. You've honestly contributed nothing to the topic.

From: 70lbdraw
23-Dec-21
"I'm so glad we have medical experts like azelkhntr to help us sift thru the information. He's truly an asset to our community and we are blessed to have him. (dripping sarcasm off)"

...and YOUR contribution Matt,... IS an asset,...how? You're no different; just the opposite side of the confused and clouded Faucci spectrum!

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-21
The J&J vaccine IS a traditional virus-based vaccine. Its use was also paused for safety concerns, after a few reports of blood-clotting, especially in women. The recommended pause was lifted after is was determined the clotting risk was very minimal, and the vaccine was safe.

The more you know.....

Matt

From: Mike in CT
23-Dec-21
"What are the potential long term effects of mRNA drugs?

You're confusing a limited exposure (dosage) with pharmacological agents that are meant to be taken over the long term and in some cases indefinitely. The mRNA vaccines are quickly degraded in the body and any adverse impacts will manifest within days, a few weeks at most.

"Why does the vax have to be (adimently) mRNA based instead of a traditional vaccine?"

The science behind vaccines has evolved since the days of Jenner's use of cowpox as a vaccine and will continue to evolve. There are a number of factors involved and they include the reduction of exposure to substances that can lead to adverse events (e.g. the move from live virus in vaccines to attenuated (weakened strains to inactivated virus (dead)). Over the years we've learned that even inactivated virus has properties that may lead to adverse reactions (e.g. allergic reactions or cross-reactions). The mRNA technology removes many of these risks and also improves upon the delivery system; studies now show it not only provides the production of IgG antibodies but IgA (attack a virus upon entry) as well and additionally, a robust cell-mediated immune response.

"Would you vax your adolescent kids when mortality rates are vastly different for varying age groups?"

I'd look at the data first and that would include the infectivity and virulence of any new variant(s). As we moved on from the original strain we have seen an increase in both the number of infections in a younger population and an increase in severity of symptoms. Thankfully, mortality has not shown a similar increase (yet). As with any medical decision I'd make as informed decision as is humanly possible, sifting through all available evidence, consulting with my kids pediatrician and assessing (in consult with him/her) the risk versus reward.

"Myocarditis seems to be a fairly common side effect, I'd rather take my chances with 99.7% survival rate than the absolutely unknown or a poor quality of life from here on out... if need be I'll gladly lay in a coffin for my convictions."

What inevitably (and inexcusably) continues to get lost in the weeds is that the majority of cases of myocarditis are mild and self-resolving. What also never gets discussed in enough detail is "what exactly is myocarditis?" When you get to the root of the condition and learn it is an inflammatory condition you should realize that there are many inducers of an inflammatory response in basically any organ in the human body.

What also gets poor attention is providing a clear definition of "risk"; I've seen countless references to "risk of myocarditis" or "risk of clots", etc. but never an explanation that risk does not universally translate into an outcome. A good example would be smoking being a risk factor for cancer; how many of you know someone who spent their life smoking like a chimney and never developed cancer? Risk should of course be avoided and if impossible, mitigated against. What risk should not be is a blockage to clear and reasoned thinking.

"** if mRNA vs trad vax is preferred simply due to production rates.. is a trad vax in the works?"

See my earlier response; there are many advantages to the mRNA technology and I expect to see this used not only in the development of future vaccines but in other treatment modalities such as the treatment of some forms of cancer (certainly much less toxic than chemotherapy for example.)

FYI, I didn't forget about your question on the COVID pills versus things like Zn, HCQ or Ivermectin. Anything that interferes with viral replication has potential application and provided there are no inherent risks should be pursued.

What we've learned from well run studies is that given early onset, HCQ can produce good results against COVID. Ivermectin was touted (and still is) largely owing to promising studies that showed good efficacy against SARS-CoV-2. Unfortunately, that study was an in vitro (basically in a lab/test tube) study and used levels that would be toxic in the human body. Subsequent studies have not shown any value to date.

Paxlovid (Pfizer) has better performance data than the Merck offering and we may see additional antivirals targeting SARS-CoV-2 in the future.

From: ohiohunter
23-Dec-21
Not exactly pseudo science #2... J&J uses a vector virus.

What were ya'll saying about misinformation?? Go on.. the more you don't know. If the pseudo scientists would shhh.. maybe the people who do know can chime in.

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-21
"And your great contribution to humanity is Matty?"

I stayed at a Holiday Inn once. ;-)

Wow! "Careered as a Certified Surgical Technologist for 25 years specializing in Neuro, Ortho and Vascular trauma." I'm impressed. Where'd you practice?

Matt

From: ohiohunter
23-Dec-21
So we are trading one set of possible side effects for another, yet you say there is no risk? Yet documented 10,000 deaths, relatively small % but deaths nonetheless. What is the death rate for the flu vax? Considering cardiovascular disease is #1 killer in America I think the induction of myocarditis should be a bit more of a concern. What cells are being modified by the mRNA? Once it modifies the DNA how and why is that not repeated through subsequent replication?

I've talked to several patients who've successfully treated their CV with ivermectin, but ivermectin isn't profitable. I believe in India CV+ patients are given a package which includes ivermectin, but if it doesn't work I guess its a waste of $0.50.

From: 2Wild Bill
23-Dec-21
pav,

Around here the delay of attention in hospitals treat sick people has more to do with lack of staff. It seems that people who were once "heros" for working throught the beginning of the sickness, many of whom contracted the virus and recovered, are not being accepted on the basis of their natural immunity. From "heros" to unvaccinated killers in a few short months has depleted the healthcare industry of valuable and experienced people who don't need a shot.

The hysteria over omicron is way overblow for sniffles and maybe some body ache symptoms.

From: Mike in CT
23-Dec-21

Mike in CT's Link
"So we are trading one set of possible side effects for another, yet you say there is no risk?"

If we're going to have a real conversation it has to begin with honesty; I've never, ever said there was no risk; if you need straw men to prop up your position that should be an indicator that you may need to re-evaluate how valid it is.

"Yet documented 10,000 deaths, relatively small % but deaths nonetheless. What is the death rate for the flu vax?"

I'm sorry but I really can't give you the benefit of the doubt on this one given it was addressed in this thread not that long ago. You're citing VAERS data which has to be adjudicated by a medical panel; that has been done and the number of confirmed vaccine caused deaths (as of the latest update I had) was 9; not 10,000.

"Considering cardiovascular disease is #1 killer in America I think the induction of myocarditis should be a bit more of a concern. "

Again, I've never stated it's not a risk; please do yourself a favor and look up all other etiologies of myocarditis and then compare those percentages to those attributed to the COVID vaccines. The answer will surprise you based on the position you appear to have staked out. There is also a world of difference between legitimate concern and misplaced paranoia.

"What cells are being modified by the mRNA? Once it modifies the DNA how and why is that not repeated through subsequent replication?"

This is another myth that has been addressed multiple times; the mRNA vaccines do not "modify" anything and they don't corrupt human DNA. With all due respect it staggers the imagination that any rational, thinking person would give this any credence let alone repeat it.

"I've talked to several patients who've successfully treated their CV with ivermectin, but ivermectin isn't profitable. I believe in India CV+ patients are given a package which includes ivermectin, but if it doesn't work I guess its a waste of $0.50."

Or there COVID was taken care of by their immune system, or we're seeing another example of the placebo effect. It doesn't take much digging to uncover other anecdotal events but as someone once pointed out to me the plural of anecdote is not data.

Link is to numbers that are not purely anecdotal and that may in all likelihood have grown since this publication.

I am always willing to engage in any productive discussion, particularly on such an important topic. What I won't do though is devote any time to any poster who seems determined to recycle discredited theories and/or conspiracies.

From: spike78
23-Dec-21
Yup plenty of treatments out there just ask Joe Rogan and all the other millionaires they received them and pulled through Covid with no issues. But us peasants must rely on a vaccine that has killed over 10,000 people and I’m pretty sure that number is WAY off. PS Matt, not worried about the Bitcoin price!

From: Jaquomo
23-Dec-21
I wonder, if the Left had been as crazy in the 70s as today, would they have reacted to Ehrlich's severe "Population Bomb" predictions by mandating abortions?.....

From: azelkhntr
23-Dec-21
Wow! "Careered as a Certified Surgical Technologist for 25 years specializing in Neuro, Ortho and Vascular trauma." I'm impressed. Where'd you practice?

Matty

Only Surgeons and Doctors practice. I worked in a Level 1 trauma center of course.

From: KSflatlander
23-Dec-21
Mike in CT- you once told me you felt like the Dutch boy plugging holes in a damn regarding Covid misinformation. It’s abundantly clear that the analogy was perfect.

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-21
Brad,

Considering you keep repeating the same debunked misinformation on vaccine-caused deaths, and you can't seem to understand the actual truth, I think the price of Bit Coin should be the least of your worries.

Now, can we get back to the discussion between the guy who pushes patients to and from the OR, and hands instruments to a surgeon, and the guy who has made a career as a virologist and infectious disease consultant for 30 years?

Thanks,

Matt

From: spike78
23-Dec-21
So your saying the 10,000 plus vaccine deaths are not true? Right off CDC’s own website?

From: ohiohunter
23-Dec-21
Pretty sure you said "removes risk" which now says "removes many risks".. I'll chalk it up to just being a discredited poster... moving on.

I'm fully aware of MY interactions are anecdotal (relatively speaking) but it doesn't explain successful treatments well beyond my reach.

Ok, no DNA impact. So proteins are made via the introduced mRNA and how do they prepare the immune syst for CV? I don't quite understand how they are short lived if the synthesized proteins should become part of a cell, that cell should replicate thus passing along the newly coded protein? yes no? how far off am i?

From: spike78
23-Dec-21

spike78's Link
Mike stated we should consult a physician and make our own decisions so I have done just that. In fact he’s in the link ha.

From: KSflatlander
23-Dec-21
Spike- that link explains everything LMAO.

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-21
Brad,

For God's sake, read what Mike and others have posted about the CDC's post-vaccine death information. There have been a total of 9 deaths confirmed to be caused by the vaccines. The rest were determined to have died from other causes. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

Matt

From: ohiohunter
23-Dec-21
Yeah, and I know of a guy who was shot in the chest but the COD was covid.

From: Mike in CT
23-Dec-21
"Pretty sure you said "removes risk" which now says "removes many risks".. I'll chalk it up to just being a discredited poster... moving on."

In the interest of clarity here is exactly what I posted (and this has not been edited): "Over the years we've learned that even inactivated virus has properties that may lead to adverse reactions (e.g. allergic reactions or cross-reactions). The mRNA technology removes many of these risks and also improves upon the delivery system; studies now show it not only provides the production of IgG antibodies but IgA (attack a virus upon entry) as well and additionally, a robust cell-mediated immune response. It should be clear that I was speaking in reference to advantages of the mRNA vaccines over older approaches to vaccination-period.

"Ok, no DNA impact. So proteins are made via the introduced mRNA and how do they prepare the immune syst for CV? I don't quite understand how they are short lived if the synthesized proteins should become part of a cell, that cell should replicate thus passing along the newly coded protein? yes no? how far off am i?"

The mRNA in the vaccines codes for a specific protein fragment of the spike protein of the SARS-CoV-2 virus; this is all the genetic coding it contains-period. Upon uptake into the cellular ribosomes the mRNA "delivers" the code to manufacture the protein fragments after which it quickly degrades. The manufactured spike protein fragments are what stimulate the immune system to produce antibodies specific for that protein fragment; we have learned that they also elicit an IgA and cell-mediated response as well.

This in no way affects normal cellular replication processes; that is simply Twilight Zone level mythology and needs to be put to bed asap. I don't fault you or anyone else not intimately familiar with the processes involved; that fault I lay at the feet of all the alleged members of the medical/scientific community who know better but for whatever reason have chosen to fan the conspiracy flames to the detriment of the general public.

From: spike78
23-Dec-21
Lol you just lost all credibility by even thinking just 9 people have died from the vaccine. So you think that all these healthy people that died 3 days to 3 weeks after taking the vaccine are all just coincidence? I’ve read about people who got the vaccine and never even made it out the door! Boy some of you are beyond gullible. Do you actually think the government is going to push vaccines so hard but also report the TRUTH about how many people died from it? Hell New Zealand just posted that a 26 year old died from it but I guess he’s only one of 9 LMFAO!

From: spike78
23-Dec-21
Not to mention their are hundreds or thousands of people in the health care field that have now lost their jobs for not taking the vaccine. Hmm I wonder why they refuse to get it?

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-21
Mike, close your italics and bold formatting. Thanks.

Brad, this will be my last attempt to hammer some sense into you. The VAERS is a system in which medical facilities are required by law to report any post-vaccine adverse events to the CDC, including deaths. A panel of medical professions are then tasked to determine if the adverse events were in fact caused by the vaccine, or for other reasons. So far, they've confirmed 9 of the reported deaths were caused by the vaccines.

Now, run along and find your next misinformed meme talking point to repeat over and over and over.....

Above all, have a healthy and Merry Christmas.

Matt

From: spike78
23-Dec-21
And I will repeat again do you honestly think they can get people to take a vaccine by truthfully reporting that it has killed so many people. Their stance is that they cannot confirm deaths were related to the vaccines. You honestly think that if 9 people were confirmed dead from the vaccine that out of all the other people that died their could not be more then 9? Really come the Ef on. If you honestly think the government is truthful then you are exactly what they want.

From: Mike in CT
23-Dec-21
"Lol you just lost all credibility by even thinking just 9 people have died from the vaccine. So you think that all these healthy people that died 3 days to 3 weeks after taking the vaccine are all just coincidence?"

Again you're mistaken; I don't think just 9 people have died from the vaccine, I know this to be a confirmed fact. What you continue to post is the reports to VAERS which are only raw data, yet to be confirmed. When reviewed by qualified medical personnel (this includes reviewing patient history, test results, autopsies) the adjudicated results were only 9 of the reported deaths were confirmed as being caused by the vaccine.

" Boy some of you are beyond gullible."

I'm sure you are blissfully unaware of the supreme irony in you posting that statement.

"Do you actually think the government is going to push vaccines so hard but also report the TRUTH about how many people died from it? "

Actually, it's the CDC that reports these statistics and as I've posted numerous times their data comes from each of the 50 states' DOH's who in turn receive their data via the reportable disease system each and every healthcare system (hospital, nursing home, rehabilitation facility, etc) are all required to report with.

Try reading that with comprehension and sparing us future displays of what has to be almost deliberate ignorance.

"Hell New Zealand just posted that a 26 year old died from it but I guess he’s only one of 9 LMFAO!"

I did take a nap earlier today so maybe I missed the news bulletin about New Zealand becoming the 51st state.....

"Not to mention their are hundreds or thousands of people in the health care field that have now lost their jobs for not taking the vaccine. Hmm I wonder why they refuse to get it?"

Some did so out of conscience; they felt this was not a decision that should have been mandated and I've been against a mandate from day 1. Some, sadly did so because they have bought into the same conspiracy nonsense you seem almost orgasmic about.

Now you can either avail yourself of the facts or you can continue to regurgitate nonsense; the choice is entirely yours.

From: Jeff Durnell
23-Dec-21
Not required. Voluntary.

And anyone who who puts their health and/or blind trust in the cdc, fda, niaid, big pharma, or even local medical 'pros' will ultimately reap their just dessert. Many, many do... and will. Be critical, inquisitive, untrusting, and vigilant.

From: Orion
23-Dec-21
Mike why is the FDA delaying the release of data on why the vaccines were approved? Don't you think they need to be transparent for people to make an informed decision?

From: Bowbender
23-Dec-21
Well it finally hit our house. My middle one came down with it Friday a week and half ago. She tested positive the following Monday. Since she lives close my wife was stopping in to check on her each day. Said it was like a bad case of the flu. Lost her sense of taste and smell which is slowly returning. My son's girlfriend came down with it on Saturday, she tested positive on Tuesday, which coincidentally was the same day my son stayed home because he didnt feel well. He tested positive. GF is doing better still a bit of a fever. Son is achey with a headache and sore throat and some aches, but well enough to hide away in the family room to play Xbox. lol

So far, wife and I are OK. So wishing you all a Merry Christmas from our quarantined house to yours!

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-21
Damn, that sucks, Tom.

Just to continue my informal poll, do you know the blood types of your son and daughter? What is the vaccination status of your household? If that's none of my business, I understand.

So far, my little bubble hasn't been penetrated. Other than the occasional trip to town, my wife is usually the only person I'm around for sometimes weeks on end.

I'll pray your kids recover quickly, and you and your wife don't get infected.

Matt

From: Orion
23-Dec-21
I believe obesity and/or heart issues seems to have more data showing bad/severe cases of Covid then any other trait.

From: ohiohunter
23-Dec-21
Finally some coherent answers. These Iga's, are they prevalent in the pharyngeal? (answered my own question, yes.. respiratory and gi) As anyone who is anyone can see there are varying degrees of CV, aside from different immune systems the only factor I can understand would be viral load. Have you, or the industry, identified why some people suffer tremendously and others brush it off as a cold?

From: KsRancher
23-Dec-21
GG. Really small sample size here. My uncle was type A blood, 56yrs young and a healthy dude. From 1st symptom he was on a ventilator in 4 days and dead after 5 days on it.

From: KsRancher
23-Dec-21
And since guys on here like anecdotal evidence. I personally know 5 men that died from covid WAY before their time. The amount of people I know that have been vaccinated is 20X (that's a guess) the amount of people I know that have had covid. I don't know 1 person that an issue with the vaccine other than feeling like crap for a few days. YES, I still believe it should be a choice.

From: spike78
23-Dec-21
Yeah ok you guys go live in your world of being gullible and in denial for the only 9 vaccine related deaths and I will keep my thoughts to myself.

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-21
Rusty,

I'm sorry for your loss.

Thanks for adding to my growing poll results that show the most severe cases are with type A and AB blood types. Type O blood remains the clear winner for less severe reactions, even though it's the most common blood type. My poll is still very anecdotal, but the results are consistent enough for me to raise an eyebrow. It seems like such an easy variable to track, but I'm just a medical neophyte, so what the hell do I know. Maybe Ohiohunter, or azelkhntr, can offer some explanations.

Matt

From: Old School
23-Dec-21
Matt - my wife and I both had what I would call “moderate” Covid. We were sick for 10-14 days with lots of symptoms but never felt close to being hospitalized. A+ and AB+ for blood types. I’ve read many of the same reports regarding blood types. Both my sons never contracted it or if they did they were asymptomatic. My youngest son is AB+ not sure what my oldest sons blood type is.

From: ohiohunter
23-Dec-21
Once again he divulges his ignorance but continues to clog the thread.

From: Grey Ghost
23-Dec-21
Mitch,

Thanks for your information. In my totally non-scientific poll, I've considered 10-14 days of sickness with lots of symptoms in the moderate level. So, your info is consistent with my poll results.

The last mild cold I had was over 5 years ago after taking a vacation by plane. I took some Advil and went on with life as usual. So I'm not really familiar with common colds, flus. and other viruses. Maybe that's why this subject interests me so much.

Matt

From: KsRancher
23-Dec-21
GG. I wish I could say the se thing. But my situation is much different. Wife is a 4th/5th grade teacher, a freshman, 7th grader and a 1st grader. They drag home more stuff than you can imagine. I usually get a sinus thing 1 or 2 times a year. I have had one a month for the past 3 months, each lasting 10 days

From: KsRancher
23-Dec-21
Some things are hard to figure out though. 2 years ago my youngest 2 were positive for type A flu. My daughter was 5 at the time and she was running a high fever. She was wanting someone to hold her, so she was sitting in my lap. She let out the biggest sneeze. I felt the "spray" splatter all over my face. I spent the next couple weeks waiting to start feeling bad. Not sure how, but didn't get it.

From: Quinn @work
23-Dec-21
Wow this thread blew up. How much time do the 5 or so of you have in one day to argue here? Who said Pat got rid of the Community Forum? It's alive and well right here.

From: Candor
23-Dec-21
Freedoms are not free, for sure. I do not think vaccines should be mandated, nor do I think masks should. But I do think if hospitals in a given geography reach a certain percentage of critical care capacity then you have to either look at lock-downs or something to slow the flow to the hospital. We cannot put ourselves in a health care shortage position.

From: 2Wild Bill
23-Dec-21
"We cannot put ourselves in a health care shortage position."

Then why are health care facilities firing staff with natural immunity who don't want to get the shot?

From: Mike in CT
23-Dec-21
Orion,

To understand the rationale for the FDA doing the slow walk you need to know what's involved in clinical trials and FDA submissions, whether they be for an EUA or full 510k clearance.

While the trials are ongoing a manufacturer is required to track any potential (and that's a key word) adverse events up to and including death. Until the trial is completed all adverse events are unconfirmed; that part comes when the trial has accumulated sufficient data and then all adverse events are reviewed and every effort is made to assign cause to each event.

One aspect that is included in this tracking of preliminary data is "All Cause Mortality"; this is a critical concern as it counts deaths from (as the name implies) all causes. If a link is found to a vaccine for example when the review is done than that death (or deaths) is (are) assigned as a vaccine caused death.

I don't know if you caught this but about a week or so ago when the initial release came out there were misrepresentations of the Pfizer "all cause mortality" statistics as vaccine caused deaths; obviously this created quite a stir. The actual number of vaccine caused deaths was significantly lower which was why an EUA and then eventually full 510k clearance was granted.

The FDA was probably well aware given how politicized the pandemic and vaccines have been that this type of gross misrepresentation was likely to happen. I would ascribe the motivation for the slow walking of the data to "postponing the inevitable."

It's always easy to second guess but in all honesty I think they felt they were in a no-win scenario.

23-Dec-21
Appreciate your thoughtfulness, Mike.

And Pav. Awesome post to put it all in perspective.

From: spike78
23-Dec-21
Ks I have had that sinus thing twice this year although last time same as wife and I kind of wish I was tested.

From: Orion
24-Dec-21
So Mike that takes 55 years to figure out and publish?

From: Mike in CT
24-Dec-21
"So Mike that takes 55 years to figure out and publish?"

No, it takes almost as little time as it does to purposefully misrepresent the data and stir the pot....

From: bigeasygator
24-Dec-21

bigeasygator's Link
Orion, I came across this opinion piece titled “55 years to fulfill a records request? Clearly, the FDA needs serious reform of its data-sharing practices.” Seems to be a few contributing factors to the FDA response all centered around staff levels, agency policy, the work required to respond to FOIA requests, and the backlog of outstanding FOIA requests that still need addressed. The authors agree that 55 years is absurd, but it’s not without reason.

From: ahunter76
24-Dec-21
"This is me...I did it all 2 shots, booste & THEN got COVID.. Mild syptoms, scratchy throat. I am in the "very old" vulnerable age." In other words, the vaccine did what it was supposed to.

They don't have a clue if it did or not (my opinion).

From: DS
24-Dec-21
I have never commented on this but I want to say a few words. "This is me...I did it all 2 shots, booster & THEN got COVID.. Mild symptoms, scratchy throat." "the vaccine did what it was supposed to." And your not mad at them for lying to you? What do you think a vaccine is? You just accept that it wasn't going to protect you from getting it and just assumed it helped your symptoms to be mild. There is no way to know.

I got the virus a few months ago. I took Ivermectin, big doses of Vitamin C, D and zinc. Had a mild cold with off and on temp, cough for awhile. Lost sense of smell for a little while and water had a metallic taste and coffee had no taste for a little while. but I kept on working. I am self-employed so I had no choice. I will not get the vaccine. My body made a better vaccine for me.

From: Treeline
24-Dec-21

Treeline's Link
Very solid interview by Joe Rogan of Dr. Peter McCullough.

Worth a listen…

From: DS
24-Dec-21

DS's Link
Media and government is mostly lying to you. It has nothing to do with health. It has to do with controlling people. And so many people just accept what they are told. Alex Berenson is a former New York Times journalist and he is one of the best reporters on this virus.

From: Grey Ghost
24-Dec-21

Grey Ghost's Link
Very solid article that debunks multiple claims made by Dr. Peter McCullough in the Joe Rogan interview.

Worth a read....

From: TD
24-Dec-21
Our front tenants are all 3 positive tested covid. All are vaxed. All are sick, fevers, etc. None are gonna die. I'd bet a chunk of money none were gonna die even if not vaxed. Same with my daughter and her family a couple months ago. She was vaxed, her husband too. Granddaughter not. All got it. All tested. All were sick with flu like symptoms. Nobody went to the hospital. Vaxed or unvaxed..... that's the way it's been. 99+% that get it are not hospitalized. Less serious cases? Who knows, lots of unvaxed folks who got it were asymptomatic. Would they have been any less symptomatic with a vaccine?

Untold millions upon millions upon millions of people have had it, I'd wager the vast majority never even tested much less in any serious health threat. Yet to hear it from many, half the people that get it are hospitalized and of those nearly all die. But it's the non-vaxed spreading "misinformation"? Crazy wrong gets a pass.....

Mike, I get what you are saying.... appreciate it very much. And what you are saying makes sense from the "science" and "development" end of it. Those in health care likely treat that info as common knowledge.

But that is not how it was "sold". Was touted as "effective" in the high 90% when that went out the window fast. Did they know that? If so why were we not informed, told the truth. I could link up several statements from both Biden, Fausi..... dozens of others like Newsome, the Michigan monster etc. who have leveraged this into authority and power over the public with statements like "If you get the vaccine you won't catch covid, you won't have to wear a mask, you can travel and gather in groups, etc." All clearly false.

It wasn't sold as "you can still get it, still spread it... you just maybe won't get as sick..." which again may be common knowledge among those in the practice. It is STILL not being sold like that. Maybe those in the health industry all know these facts. Politicians in "authority" over us commoners and Big Pharma are not making facts and reality.... lets just say common knowledge.

We were openly lied to. Again. Over and over in cases, such as the virus coming from a Chinese lab was "conspiracy theory!" and "misinformation!" right up to being accuses as "extremists, qanon!" by, um, some. Well, that is before facts and truth comes out and clearly show they were knowingly lying. AGAIN. Seems over and over. But.... it's OK because, um..... it's for your own good. Nope. Not acceptable. I hear one knowing lie from someone I'm done with anything else they may say.

Now it's do it or lose your job. Your rights. Certainly your freedoms. For what? You won't get AS sick? Maybe? Letting the psychos and power hungry loose on society was a yuge mistake. Should have been made to keep the crazy to themselves and ignored like always.

I want truth, and I want facts.... scare tactics pizz me off. Scare tactics are used for bad ends by bad people... who think they are doing the world a favor.

If you are "at risk" and not a healthy person.... likely should have the shot (or rather.... multiple shots and endless boosters....) it certainly seems it could save some lives. Although my understanding is more people have died of covid in this last year even with the vaccine out than the year before prior to the vaccine? (Ssshhhhh.... that death count was for Trump) Bottom line if you're healthy..... your chances of serious case is pretty low as it is regardless. Children? Many other illnesses are more threatening.... including the flu. But we must give children vaccines they tell us. Mask up the 2 year olds. Nucking Futs.

Misinformation? How about outright lies. And that is from the folks in charge, not the unwashed masses and deplorables. Lock down and mask up. Unless you are one of the Chosen. Then party on dude.

Two years of this crap being shaken in your face. And some wonder why folks are pizzed? Good grief.

From: txhunter58
24-Dec-21
I don’t think I have enough info. Please tell me again why the vaccine is necessary.

From: txhunter58
24-Dec-21
I don’t think I have enough info. Please tell me again why the vaccine is NOT necessary.

From: spike78
24-Dec-21
Matt so claim number 15 is inaccurate? I’m pretty sure it’s well known that these vaccines can and have caused myocarditis and blood clots.

From: Grey Ghost
24-Dec-21
"I’m pretty sure it’s well known that these vaccines can and have caused myocarditis and blood clots."

So can the common cold.

Matt

From: scentman
24-Dec-21
This thread is like a 90's Wimbledon tennis match... You cannot be serious!!!

From: Grey Ghost
24-Dec-21
John McEnroe was almost entertaining enough for me to watch tennis. Almost. ;-)

Matt

From: bigeasygator
24-Dec-21
But that is not how it was "sold". Was touted as "effective" in the high 90% when that went out the window fast. Did they know that? If so why were we not informed, told the truth.

I feel like people just want to hear what they want. Because from day one I’ve heard that vaccines aren’t 100% effective, but they greatly reduce your chance of catching or spreading COVID, and more importantly, it is highly effective at preventing significant illness and death. I’ve also heard that as the virus mutates and new variants are created, the vaccines may lose some effectiveness. I’ve also heard from day one that we don’t know how long our immune response will last and boosters may be necessary to continue to fight the disease. Literally none of what has been happening is surprising and none of it is a departure from what we’ve been told.

Two years of this crap being shaken in your face. And some wonder why folks are pizzed? Good grief.

And two years of people refusing to wear masks and now after a year of vaccines being available we still have 40% of the people in this country who refuse to get them. People love to say “see, here we go again with another wave, these masks and vaccines aren’t working, so why should we continue to do the same thing.” Well, it’s hard for them to work when nearly half the country refuses to follow the guidance of healthcare professionals.

From: scentman
24-Dec-21
Matt, just a break in the action... your good dude, real good... carry on.

From: ohiohunter
24-Dec-21
I wouldn’t lump healthcare professionals into one United proVax group, many are not and many regret being bullied into getting the jab.

From: Orion
24-Dec-21
You honestly cannot believe that a mask that you can smell through is stopping any virus particles

24-Dec-21
Japan's Covid cases are falling and there as of yet has not been a good explanation as to why. We are still learning right? That's my reason for believing people should do what they think is best but deciding what is best from solid sources that have recognized credibility.

From: ahunter76
25-Dec-21
Yes, I did it all & still got Covid.. Was not a fan of the vax but did it. Now, most of us should think the so called health experts & politicians have NO idea what is going on. I can't change what I have done but I can in the future.. Yes, it spreads fast, yes, it MAY kill some BUT for me, I'm gambling the Flu is still more deadly.. I have never gotten a Flu shot...

From: Treeline
25-Dec-21
GG, I think I would put a bit more faith in Dr. Peter McCullough’s credentials and experience than in some unknown entity that goes by the name “ZDoggMD”!

“Physician Zubin Damania, who also goes by the name ZDoggMD, published a rebuttal of McCullough’s claims on his podcast.”

A little bit of a review of this source “ Health Feedback” indicates that they “debunk” any world renowned, experienced Doctors that say anything against the “Covid narrative” and, most of the writers seem to be foreign with strong ties to China. Not obvious at all.

From: Mike in CT
25-Dec-21
"GG, I think I would put a bit more faith in Dr. Peter McCullough’s credentials and experience than in some unknown entity that goes by the name “ZDoggMD”!"

While sometimes prudent to discount "questionable sources" it is a sword that cuts both ways; for that reason it's always wise to examine the material contained and ignoring the source, weigh its validity.

In the case of the cited source many of the exceptions taken with Dr. McCullough's positions are accurate and are supported by bodies of evidence significantly greater than a few foreign writers. (If you check the bibliography you'll find many who are most definitely not foreign.)

Examining some key claims of Dr. McCullough can also lead one to find them to be either completely false, or misleading.

A few glaring examples

1. EUA-the rebuttal is completely factual; contrary to what Dr. McCullough claims the EUA for the mRNA vaccines was hardly a novel program, unused before COVID.

3. He completely misrepresented the SPARS teaching and training resource.

4. As the table clearly shows multiple boosters are hardly something "wild"; many common vaccines, particularly those developed for children require multiple doses, some up to 4 or 5 doses.

7. Completely wrong on asymptomatic spread; the spread of any viral pathogen is directly related to viral load, not symptomology.

I could go on but the benefit would be greater to actually research the counter claims and not discount them out of hand because of the source of the claims.

FYI, Dr. McCullough is also being sued by his former employers and it's not because he's anti-vaccine; it's because he's demonstrably wrong on many of his claims.

From: Huntiam
25-Dec-21
This thread shud be locked with TD’s last post…I believe we can all agree with that..excellent post buddy and the way we are all feeling for sure .

From: bigeasygator
25-Dec-21
You honestly cannot believe that a mask that you can smell through is stopping any virus particles

Sneeze into a mask. Does it get wet? If so, it’s stopping virus particles. Not all of them, but certainly some.

25-Dec-21
TD always puts things into perspective. As always, a great post.

Everyone look to the sky and wish the only reason you are alive today, happy birthday. And, no matter how much someone tells you how to approach this debacle, just smile and do what you think is correct, as you go on with the life you’ve been given by God himself. Not doctors or, the bowsite Covid police.

A good bit of this whole thing has been a lie. Anyone stating different is a likely a knowing liar. Saying over and over that our situation is due to anything other then the virus is the political partisan letting common sense overrule reality. It does nothing but to further validate the lie.

If everyone would allow others the same, we’d be long past this “epidemic”. And, you wouldn’t have the Covid police ruining a wonderful hunting site with the regurgitated nonsense propagating this lie.

At this point, by default a good bit of us dismiss anyone who is incapable of saying the shots is a choice. And, has done little to stop the spread of the virus. It wasn’t marketed to prevent severe illness. It was marketed as being over 90% effective at stopping the spread. You know, what we were all told by our health officials originally.

Merry Christmas gentlemen. Remember the reason for the season.

From: scentman
25-Dec-21
I think it's now 4 or 5 Buffalo Bills are on covid watch... I believe four are fully vaccinated and one is not, Cole Beasly... and the local press lets everybody know. One of the vaccinated is on his second bout, full vaxed.

From: TGbow
25-Dec-21
Covid is real..and it can potentially kill you.

Air planes can crash, vehicle accidents, treestand falls, so many things can potentially harm tje general public.

The question is...do we keep allowing the gov to control every aspect of our life. We live in the most blessed nation on the planet, inspite of our faults, but we only have a "degree" of freedom thanks to our 2 major parties . Most people dont realize how conditioned we've become to accepting whatever the gov pushes on us.

To most folks it is the norm..but it shouldnt be. Democrats do it, Republicans do it...chip chip away at our rights. Yes, we need common sense laws but anytning beyond the basics is gov over reach. I think we are better off getting vaccinated but it should be our choice.

From: scentman
25-Dec-21
When Mr. Trump was president most politicians on both sides said not to trust the Vax, just Google it you can spend all day on it. Pharmaceuticals were rarely mentioned and that's still the case. Jab, jab, jab means money, money, money... many in the health profession have much death on their hands for not prescribing life saving drug's and vitamins... China brought this scourge to the world for reasons i believe Stonegirl described... spot on girl! scentman

From: 70lbDraw
25-Dec-21
2 years later… nothing has changed or benefited from all of the mandates and Chicken Little panic attacks. People continue to get sick, and some continue to die. Yet the bowlibs continue to support and spread the fear mongering in the exact same way misinformation is spread. Common sense says, change your habits to change the outcome. Yet we all stand-by and watch as these so called professionals keep kicking the Covid can down the road. If you’re scared, stay home and take care of YOURSELF instead of demanding that everyone else needs to cater to YOUR selfish misconceptions.

I was taught that we were all created equally…not EXACTLY the same. I think a lot of people forget that fact.

25-Dec-21
If you think that this entire pandemic has been fear mongering then you either haven't been paying attention or have a political viewpoint that prevents you from accepting reality.

The way I see it is folks with viewpoints like yours have selfish misconceptions. Everyone needs to do their part in this and if a person sees getting vaccinated or wearing a mask see as an infringements on their rights they are only interested in themselves and not the good of others.

From: ahunter76
25-Dec-21
TD-Our front tenants are all 3 positive tested covid. All are vaxed. All are sick, fevers, etc. None are gonna die. I'd bet a chunk of money none were gonna die even if not vaxed. Same with my daughter and her family a couple months ago. She was vaxed, her husband too. Granddaughter not. All got it. All tested. All were sick with flu like symptoms. Nobody went to the hospital. Vaxed or unvaxed..... that's the way it's been. 99+% that get it are not hospitalized. Less serious cases? Who knows, lots of unvaxed folks who got it were asymptomatic. Would they have been any less symptomatic with a vaccine? Untold millions upon millions upon millions of people have had it, I'd wager the vast majority never even tested much less in any serious health threat. Yet to hear it from many, half the people that get it are hospitalized and of those nearly all die. But it's the non-vaxed spreading "misinformation"? Crazy wrong gets a pass.....

Mike, I get what you are saying.... appreciate it very much. And what you are saying makes sense from the "science" and "development" end of it. Those in health care likely treat that info as common knowledge.

But that is not how it was "sold". Was touted as "effective" in the high 90% when that went out the window fast. Did they know that? If so why were we not informed, told the truth. I could link up several statements from both Biden, Fausi..... dozens of others like Newsome, the Michigan monster etc. who have leveraged this into authority and power over the public with statements like "If you get the vaccine you won't catch covid, you won't have to wear a mask, you can travel and gather in groups, etc." All clearly false.

It wasn't sold as "you can still get it, still spread it... you just maybe won't get as sick..." which again may be common knowledge among those in the practice. It is STILL not being sold like that. Maybe those in the health industry all know these facts. Politicians in "authority" over us commoners and Big Pharma are not making facts and reality.... lets just say common knowledge.

We were openly lied to. Again. Over and over in cases, such as the virus coming from a Chinese lab was "conspiracy theory!" and "misinformation!" right up to being accuses as "extremists, qanon!" by, um, some. Well, that is before facts and truth comes out and clearly show they were knowingly lying. AGAIN. Seems over and over. But.... it's OK because, um..... it's for your own good. Nope. Not acceptable. I hear one knowing lie from someone I'm done with anything else they may say.

Now it's do it or lose your job. Your rights. Certainly your freedoms. For what? You won't get AS sick? Maybe? Letting the psychos and power hungry loose on society was a yuge mistake. Should have been made to keep the crazy to themselves and ignored like always.

I want truth, and I want facts.... scare tactics pizz me off. Scare tactics are used for bad ends by bad people... who think they are doing the world a favor.

If you are "at risk" and not a healthy person.... likely should have the shot (or rather.... multiple shots and endless boosters....) it certainly seems it could save some lives. Although my understanding is more people have died of covid in this last year even with the vaccine out than the year before prior to the vaccine? (Ssshhhhh.... that death count was for Trump) Bottom line if you're healthy..... your chances of serious case is pretty low as it is regardless. Children? Many other illnesses are more threatening.... including the flu. But we must give children vaccines they tell us. Mask up the 2 year olds. Nucking Futs.

Misinformation? How about outright lies. And that is from the folks in charge, not the unwashed masses and deplorables. Lock down and mask up. Unless you are one of the Chosen. Then party on dude.

Two years of this crap being shaken in your face. And some wonder why folks are pizzed? Good griefD, excellent & agree.

TD-GREAT-Agree. This is some stats I do know. Family vaxed 9. family unvax 13. Vax that got covid 6 of the 9. Unvaxed that got covid 6 of 13. All mild symptoms except ONE VAX was Hospitilized several days & recovered. So in our family more vax % got covid. Oh, 1 of the VAX got it twice & was 2nd sickest of all. 6 are 65+ 6 are in early 40s & the rest are 5, 9, 9, 10, 13, 15, 16, 17, 25, 27. 1 vax, 65+ hospitilized had previous health problems (recoverd from Covid ok) Other sickest was vax that got it twice was 27. Sad thing is how our Gov. is trying to "force" people to get it with threats of losing jobs.. Wrong.

From: scentman
25-Dec-21
I read 70lb's contribution totally different... I do believe politics plays a big roll with some on this site, hence the back and fourth volleys that just go on, and on, and on, and on and on.

25-Dec-21
What sticks out to me, pun intended, is the same folks who have constantly told us how incompetent our government is now want us to believe these same idiots have successfully implement a grand control plan where the majority of the population has been duped into believing in this scheme.

I guess this is what they mean by having your cake and eating it too?

From: Mike in CT
25-Dec-21
https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/1600/coronavirus/data-tables/421-010-CasesInNotFullyVaccinated.pdf

https://www.gpb.org/news/2021/07/28/despite-breakthrough-covid-almost-all-georgia-cases-and-deaths-are-among

https://www.media.pa.gov/pages/health-details.aspx?newsid=1595

https://www.media.pa.gov/pages/health-details.aspx?newsid=1595

https://scdhec.gov/covid19/covid-19-data/cases-hospitalizations-deaths-among-not-fully-vaccinated

https://www.marylandmatters.org/covid-19-in-maryland-2/#fullvax

https://www.dshs.texas.gov/immunize/covid19/data/cases-and-deaths-by-vaccination-status-11082021.pdf

FYI, I could cite similar data in all of the remaining states; all the missteps, intentional or unintentional at the Federal level (and as TD cites there have been some doozies) aside the evidence is clear and indisputable; the incidence of severe illness/hospitalization/ICU bed occupancy and mortality is overwhelmingly in the unvaccinated population.

I have no issue and only full support for people who feel that vaccination should only be a fully-informed, personal decision. I have serious issues with those who insist that this is some Machiavellian scheme and the vaccines aren't making a difference.

Liars lie, facts don't.

From: LINK
25-Dec-21
Now habitat, don’t go thinking you’re in the majority…. Let me quess… Fauci told you that you are so it must be true. Walk around and do some man on the street interviews and step away from CNN.

From: Hackbow
25-Dec-21
"If you think that this entire pandemic has been fear mongering then you either haven't been paying attention or have a political viewpoint that prevents you from accepting reality. The way I see it is folks with viewpoints like yours have selfish misconceptions. Everyone needs to do their part in this and if a person sees getting vaccinated or wearing a mask see as an infringements on their rights they are only interested in themselves and not the good of others."

Thanks for the drive-by comedy Phil. You truly bring incredible entertainment value when you've had enough and just must make your party-approved thoughts known.

"Everyone needs to do their part..." HAHAHAHAHAHA..... in other words, "Workers of the world unite!"

From: 70lbDraw
25-Dec-21
“If you think that this entire pandemic has been fear mongering then you either haven't been paying attention or have a political viewpoint that prevents you from accepting reality."

Just telling it from my viewpoint. We have a small family. It’s just her and I in our house, and we don’t do much as far as hanging around with crowds or social groups. If we aren’t at home, we’re in the woods somewhere enjoying the solitude. I don’t know anyone that has passed away from this. I wore the mask and got mildly infected. My wife had 1 shot and a mask and still got infected. Other than that it’s been a big nothing burger for us. I don’t feel the need to be ashamed of myself because I have a strong immune system! But apparently that is what is expected us all. I haven’t hogged up an emergency room, nobody I’m my circle has died.

By the way, I consider myself a realist. I believe most of what I witness and only a fraction of what I hear.

From: bigeasygator
25-Dec-21
I have no issue and only full support for people who feel that vaccination should only be a fully-informed, personal decision. I have serious issues with those who insist that this is some Machiavellian scheme and the vaccines aren't making a difference.

Liars lie, facts don't.

Worth repeating.

From: bigeasygator
25-Dec-21
I have no issue and only full support for people who feel that vaccination should only be a fully-informed, personal decision. I have serious issues with those who insist that this is some Machiavellian scheme and the vaccines aren't making a difference.

Liars lie, facts don't.

Worth repeating.

From: azelkhntr
25-Dec-21
Mike what happened to most of the patients for the first 3-4 months of hospitalizations in an ICU in 2020? On a positive note your chances today of dieing with the rona are only 0.0679% worldwide. Your chances of dieing from the rona are far far lower.

From: Orion
25-Dec-21
Sneeze into a mask. Does it get wet? If so, it’s stopping virus particles. Not all of them, but certainly some.

You do know that viruses are transmitted many different ways. I also believe that Covid being transmitted through water droplets was debunked as a main source of transmission. I'm curious how often you are changing your cloth mask once it gets saturated from your breath, sneezing, etc.?

From: bigeasygator
25-Dec-21
You do know that viruses are transmitted many different ways. I also believe that Covid being transmitted through water droplets was debunked as a main source of transmission

The virus can transmit multiple ways, all related to respiratory fluids. The same ones a mask helps contain.

SARS-CoV-2 is transmitted by exposure to infectious respiratory fluids The principal mode by which people are infected with SARS-CoV-2 (the virus that causes COVID-19) is through exposure to respiratory fluids carrying infectious virus. Exposure occurs in three principal ways: (1) inhalation of very fine respiratory droplets and aerosol particles, (2) deposition of respiratory droplets and particles on exposed mucous membranes in the mouth, nose, or eye by direct splashes and sprays, and (3) touching mucous membranes with hands that have been soiled either directly by virus-containing respiratory fluids or indirectly by touching surfaces with virus on them.

People release respiratory fluids during exhalation (e.g., quiet breathing, speaking, singing, exercise, coughing, sneezing) in the form of droplets across a spectrum of sizes. These droplets carry virus and transmit infection.

And I clean my mask about once a week. Yet to contract COVID.

25-Dec-21
Hackbow, Trying to label me in an attempt to discredit me is foolish. This has nothing to do with my party, or any other party. That's a game you and some others try to play but it doesn't work in the real world, only here.

Yes I don't post much here because, clearly, there are so many people here that think they have this figured out that any opposing opinion gets ridiculed immediately.

Go read what Mike posted. He is informed and a voice of reason. Unfortunately you and the other "experts" think science and facts don't mean anything because you know a cousin who's brother-in-law got COVID and didn't die.

I am going to keep trying to avoid commenting on the ridiculous things said here but I can't promise anything. At time the stupidity gets to be too much .

25-Dec-21
Link, I talk with people everyday, but since I am not in a bunker I am guessing we receive polar opposite views. ;-)

That’s what is killing us, the desire to make everyone/everything fit into a simpleton view, ie since I believe the Covid vaccine shots work as intended I must be a liberal that watches CNN. It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.

From: KSflatlander
25-Dec-21

KSflatlander's Link
“On a positive note your chances today of dieing with the rona are only 0.0679% worldwide. Your chances of dieing from the rona are far far lower.“

Huh? Makes absolutely no sense. Regardless it’s all BS without something to back it up. How about a source for your number.

“I also believe that Covid being transmitted through water droplets was debunked as a main source of transmission.“

And you would be wrong. See source.

“ The principal mode by which people are infected with SARS-CoV-2 (the virus that causes COVID-19) is through exposure to respiratory fluids carrying infectious virus. Exposure occurs in three principal ways: (1) inhalation of very fine respiratory droplets and aerosol particles, (2) deposition of respiratory droplets and particles on exposed mucous membranes in the mouth, nose, or eye by direct splashes and sprays, and (3) touching mucous membranes with hands that have been soiled either directly by virus-containing respiratory fluids or indirectly by touching surfaces with virus on them.”

From: spike78
25-Dec-21
I don’t trust any source with .gov in it ha

From: DanaC
25-Dec-21

DanaC's embedded Photo
DanaC's embedded Photo

From: Nemophilist
25-Dec-21
I believe there is a virus, but I also believe there are people cashing in on it big time. And if you don't believe this virus is being used politically and to make a ton of money for some people, you're living in the land of make believe and denial. As far as the vaccines I'll wait to see what happens in two to three years. My sister and her live-in boyfriend both got vaccinated and both ended up with inflammation of the heart. Both had no prior heart problems. They both had to take medication for the inflammation. Thank goodness they are good now. People have died from these vaccines, and not just a few. Get away from the mainstream media and do your own research with an open mind. If you want to get vaccinated go for it, but don't force your choices or a guilt trip on someone else. A virus that is 99.8% survivable without the vaccine according to the CDC and other health organizations and some want to act like it's the black plaque.

From: KSflatlander
25-Dec-21
Nemo- If the extent of your research only involves your sister and brother-in-law and not the totality of medical research…oh never mind.

You really can’t see the contradiction and irony in your statement? You make a decision based on the anecdotal sample size of 2…then recommend doing research and keeping an open mind. Seriously?

From: Nemophilist
25-Dec-21
KSflatlander, there is none. My research was a lot more involved than just two people. My sister and her boyfriend where just two I know personally. I'm not going to mention every person that has had problems and every website I read. If you want to get the vaccines and all the boosters by all means do it. It makes absolutely no difference to me. Seriously I can care less what happens to you, just like you can care less what happens to me.

25-Dec-21
Nemophilist, I agree with you that people are cashing in on the pandemic big-time. I'm not sure we see the same people cashing in. There is over $100 billion in fraud related to the pandemic relief money. That money was taken by people and businesses regardless of their political leanings.

At least 75 members of Congress - from both parties - hold stock in Moderna, J&J and Pfizer, possibly opening up some ethical questions. Lawmakers from both parties made suspicious trades on stocks that had a relationship with COVID.

I don't fault the vaccine makers because getting a vaccine to people was a priority for the Trump and Biden administrations.

From: Nemophilist
25-Dec-21
Phil. I never said one party was cashing in on it. And I never said I agreed with Trump.

From: Nemophilist
25-Dec-21
I know all these articles are lies. There is a lot more than these four.

https://nexusnewsfeed.com/article/health-healing/how-the-covid-19-vaccine-destroys-your-immune-system/

https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/11/17/covid-vaccines-damage-the-immune-system-and-cause-illness-and-death/

https://www.christianitydaily.com/articles/13729/20211026/covid-vaccines-destroy-natural-immunity-to-make-people-dependent-on-booster-shots-uk-health-security-agency-reveals.htm

https://lifeanddeathandallbetween.wordpress.com/2021/08/23/pfizer-vaccine-destroys-t-cells-weakens-the-immune-system-study-dr-eddy-bettermann-md/

From: KSflatlander
25-Dec-21
Nemo- I would love to see a peer-reviewed medical study journal paper that recommends against getting the vaccine. A research study and not an article filtered by some non-medical author. Please provide.

From: Nemophilist
25-Dec-21

Nemophilist's embedded Photo
Nemophilist's embedded Photo
Maybe you want papers by the CDC that has been caught lying along with Fauci by Fauci's own emails. Like I said I can care less what happens to you. It's a fact even by the CDC that the vaccinated can still get covid, still spread covid, and can still die of covid. Like I said all of them articles are lies. "LOL" You must be a very fast reader if you read all four of them articles and passed judgment on them in less than 5 minutes.

From: DanaC
25-Dec-21
"Get away from the mainstream media and do your own research with an open mind. "

That's just a euphemism for "go find 100 trolling bullshit sites that confirm what I want to hear." Research? Open mind? Bullshit.

From: KSflatlander
25-Dec-21
And not one of them is a peer reviewed medical study journal. Imagine that…lol.

“It's a fact even by the CDC that the vaccinated can still get covid, still spread covid, and can still die of covid.”

You keep repeating this ad nauseam. You know it is misleading. It’s also a fact that the vaccine reduces transmission rates and risk of death by significant amounts.

It’s a fact that those using seatbelts still get in car accidents and still die. Your logic…seatbelts don’t work. See how stupid you sound.

Agreed…I could care less if you get vaccinated or not. Just stop with the spreading of misinformation and BS. Do your medical research using medical journals and keep an open mind.

From: Grey Ghost
25-Dec-21
Phil,

Your point about members of Congress owning stock in Big Pharma companies is kinda meaningless. Anyone with a medical-related mutual fund in their retirement account is likely to be invested in Pfizer, Moderna, J&J, etc.... I made a nice chunk of money off Pfizer and Moderna stock after the Covid market crash. That was a no-brainer call, since those companies were always touted as the most likely to develop a vaccine first. I applaud the members of Congress who had the foresight to invest in them.

Anti-vax denialism and conspiracy theories is nothing new. I've been reading about the history of the polio vaccines, and much of the rhetoric was the same. Don't trust the science, it's all about government control, ineffective and deadly, long term side affects, a Big Pharma scam, yada yada yada....same playbook different disease.

For a real hoot, research what the chiropractic profession had to say about the polio vaccine. They claimed polio was from "spinal tension" caused by over-fatigue and it should be treated with hot packs and rest, not "injections from diseased animal cells." That nonsense went on for years, even after polio had been eradicated from the US due to the vaccines.

"History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes." Mark Twain

Matt

From: Nemophilist
25-Dec-21

Nemophilist's embedded Photo
Nemophilist's embedded Photo
Interesting

From: Nemophilist
25-Dec-21

Nemophilist's embedded Photo
Nemophilist's embedded Photo
Interesting

From: Nemophilist
25-Dec-21
KSflatlander You want to call me stupid. Doesn't surprise me that you would go to name calling. Look in the mirror if you want to see stupid. Keep getting the boosters just for me. You can have mine.

From: Nemophilist
25-Dec-21
DanaC I guess all your websites are 100% true. "LOL" Hey right. Talk about bullshit. "LOL"

From: Nemophilist
25-Dec-21
DanaC and KSflatlander demand real proof but don't show no real proof of their own. Typical. Instead, they resort to name calling and bashing someone else's opinions and someone else's research because they don't agree with it.

From: DanaC
25-Dec-21
You have yet to present ONE 'website' that doesn't reek of Russian trolling. You say 'bashing', I say 'calling bullshit'.

From: azelkhntr
25-Dec-21
From: KSflatlander “On a positive note your chances today of dieing with the rona are only 0.0679% worldwide. Your chances of dieing from the rona are far far lower.“ Huh? Makes absolutely no sense. Regardless it’s all BS without something to back it up. How about a source for your number.

OK KS. Simple math. Divide all the reported WW covid deaths by 7.9 billion times 100 and the percentage is as noted. The numbers don't lie. Your chances of dying of or with the rona are 0.0679% as of today. 6 tenths of 1%. Now does anyone seriously believe a major big pharma corp, let alone 4, would even bother to create a brand new vaccine with such an incredible rate of survivability? The answer is emphatically NO. So now you're stuck with having to entertain other possibilities for the origins of these magically appearing x-vaxs. The only rational conclusion must be that they existed prior to the release of the plandemic upon the population. Now I agree the x-vaxs are effective but effective at what? Clearly they don't stop the spread or even cure the rona so what are they doing? And now were back to the mRNA and DNA in these jabs changing your DNA. If you've taken the jabs you've been injected with nanoparticles, HIV DNA, aborted baby fetal material and graphene oxide. I don't trust any studies coming out of big pharma, the cdc, nih, who, naiad or the fda. The fact that they all are attempting to discredit naturally acquired immunity; a biological fact; should send alarm bells ringing. Not to mention the still active suppression of known cheap and incredibly effective therapeutics. And since the therapeutics do work exceptionally well there exists no need for anyone to submit to the EXPERIMENTAL gene therapies being passed off as vaccines.

From: KSflatlander
25-Dec-21
“On a positive note your chances today of dieing with the rona are only 0.0679% worldwide. Your chances of dieing from the rona are far far lower.“

Please read that out loud to yourself and tell me it makes any sense.

Thanks for the explanation on your number. Death risk is not equally distributed across the population unlike your rate calculation. Your number may be relevant to a healthy 18 year old but be misleading to someone over 65.

From: lamb
25-Dec-21
dana my neighbors mother had all the shots died last tuesday from the kung flu. hoorah for the vaccine hoorah of course if you had the shot your gonna live! right???

From: btnbuck
25-Dec-21
It’s a fact that those using seatbelts still get in car accidents and still die. Your logic…seatbelts don’t work. See how stupid you sound.

What about the millions of people that didn't need a seatbelt in the first place. I guess they're causing all of the accidents because they aren't wearing them?? Stupid is as stupid does.

From: Grey Ghost
25-Dec-21
"Divide all the reported WW covid deaths by 7.9 billion times 100 and the percentage is as noted. The numbers don't lie. Your chances of dying of or with the rona are 0.0679% as of today. 6 tenths of 1%.

Umm....not to nitpick, but that percentage rounds off to 7 hundredths of 1%. But math is hard.

And, to assess the risk of dying form Covid by dividing the entire world's population by the reported deaths, is kinda silly. It doesn't account for demographic variables like age, health, and exposure level to the virus, etc....

But, hey, if it fits your narrative....

Matt

From: KSflatlander
25-Dec-21
“What about the millions of people that didn't need a seatbelt in the first place.”

If you’re in a car and use a seatbelt you reduce your risk of death in a car accident. If you human you can get Covid so if you get a vaccine you reduce your risk of death. Both are factual but some may be more high risk than others. But vaccines aren’t just to reduce your risk of death. It’s also to reduce chances of transmission, hospitalization, mutations, and chronic issues.

From: Orion
25-Dec-21
ksflatlander I'm curious what you think the survival rate of Covid is.

From: DanaC
25-Dec-21
Dave, nobody ever said the vaccine - or *any* vaccine - is 100% guaranteed, regardless of your physical condition. I've had my two covid shots, get flu shots every year and at 68 I'm still alive and pissing a few people off. What more can I say? ;-)

(And yes, I will get the booster, because there are still people out there who love me ;-) )

From: Jegs.mi
25-Dec-21
It's a shame there's no useful information available. As in all things these days facts have become relative to the whim of the fact giver. I am unable to trust anything. All involved do not seem trustworthy. I wish we had a government we could trust had our best interest at heart. I wish when they said my family needs a vaccine and I knew it was true. I believe you need a much higher pay grade than a doctor to have a idea. Since this is an archery site here is something ishi said about our society. We are like sophisticated children, smart but not wise. Advising people one way or the other is a waste of time. We have all decided. Chips fall where they may. The healthcare cost argument is B's healthcare cost are shameful to begin with.

From: KSflatlander
25-Dec-21
98.4% survival chance in the U.S. for all ages and demographics. If your over 50 your risk goes up.

But vaccines are not simply about your own risk. In making my decision to get the vaccine I also consider the risk of those i care about…family and friends. I considered the risk of side effects of the vaccine itself (from credible peer-reviewed medical journal sources). I also considered overall public health and the livelihood of those whose jobs and businesses that were affected the most. The least I could is get vaccinated and follow public health guidances and recommendations to help.

Call me crazy.

From: TGbow
25-Dec-21
I have natural immunity because I survived Covid.

Unfortunately, some people dont survive. There has been so much BS floating around I understand why some people have had a hard time deciding on whether or not to get vaccinated.

One thing is for sure...more people have died from the Covi than those that have died from the vaccine.

The problem I have is people trying to force people to do something that should be their choice. The leftist are for choice when it comes to snuffing out the life of an unborn child but thats just about where their free choice ends.

I dont like gov infringement be it Democrat or Republican. Leftist and Neocons both have done a good job at infringing on our rights. Its clear we have a lot of folks in this country that dont have a clue what real freedom is. Just because the gov says so dont mean its the right thing or the just thing to do. I think we should get vaccinated but only if its our choice.

From: Mike in CT
25-Dec-21
"I don’t trust any source with .gov in it ha"

I don't fault anyone for having a healthy level of skepticism regarding the government, particularly during this pandemic.

Where I take issue however is simply dismissing easily confirmed facts; if you feel the facts presented are wrong present a counter argument; this is how productive discussions begin. You're simply taking your ball and going home; given the gravity of the situation shame on you.

"On a positive note your chances today of dieing with the rona are only 0.0679% worldwide. Your chances of dieing from the rona are far far lower."

I think your understanding of how case fatality rates (CFR) are calculated is seriously flawed; you don't take the entire population as the denominator in the calculation you only use the total number of confirmed cases, hence the term "case fatality rate".

In the US as of mid-December the overall CFR as Ryan pointed out above is approximately 1.6%; this number is an overall CFR and when you look at age demographics once you hit 70 years of age the CFR is higher and it is higher still at the 80 year old mark.

I've posted 7 sources, some of which not only give breakdowns of vaccinated versus unvaccinated but also give increased risk based on vaccination status; review those numbers and if you feel you have a valid argument, by all means make one.

"People have died from these vaccines, and not just a few. Get away from the mainstream media and do your own research with an open mind."

If you are using figures from VAERS you'd be correct but only in the sense of reported numbers, not adjudicated ones. Anyone can report a suspected adverse event with VAERS, no medical background or even playing a doctor on TV required. Adjudicated VAERS data (and I posted this earlier, perhaps on another thread so apologies if it isn't on this one) confirmed only 9 deaths as due to the vaccines out of over 10,000 reported to VAERS.

If you saw the first release of the FDA trial data for the Pfizer vaccine you may have seen something along the lines of 55,000 deaths from the vaccine during the clinical trials. Again, this is a gross misrepresentation of actual data. During clinical trials vaccine manufacturers are required to list "all cause mortality" in trial participants. Again, this is simply a raw number of mortality due to any cause; only later are the deaths reviewed by qualified medical personnel who then examine patient histories, test results and autopsy results to ascertain if the death was caused by the vaccines. Again the number was exponentially lower and well within acceptable standards for EUA granting by the FDA.

All of the information I've just shared on vaccine deaths is easy to obtain, unless you're looking at websites like www.bigpharmaiskillingusall.com.

"A virus that is 99.8% survivable without the vaccine according to the CDC and other health organizations and some want to act like it's the black plaque."

I posted data as I mentioned from 7 states; I could post the other 43 states data and it would show the same picture; the overwhelming number of ICU beds taken up and mortality are among the unvaccinated population. Again, very easily confirmed information. Survival rate isn't 99.8% and again, looking at numbers for the entire spectrum of ages paints a misleading picture. When you also factor in underlying co-morbidities the numbers get still uglier.

FYI, the meme about the vaccine manufactures raises the art of dealing in half-truths to new heights. While there is truth contained in the meme what's left out is especially telling. None of the claims, even with misleading presentation come remotely close to dealing with the crux of the matter, the safety and efficacy of the vaccines.

Again, anyone inclined to research the claims in the meme can easily peel back the onion and see it's what the meme isn't telling you that's most important.

A few "for examples"

"For instance, in 2004, the Warner-Lambert company — which Pfizer acquired four years earlier — pleaded guilty to illegally marketing the epilepsy drug Neurontin “even when scientific studies had shown it was not effective,” the Department of Justice (DOJ) said in a statement.

Pfizer agreed to pay $430 million, said that it “cooperated fully with the government to resolve this matter,” and stressed the alleged violations occurred before Pfizer acquired Warner-Lambert."

"Then, in 2009, the company paid the largest settlement for health care fraud to date, totaling $2.3 billion, according to the DOJ.

In that case, the company’s subsidy Pharmacia & Upjohn Company pleaded guilty to promoting a painkiller Bextra “for several uses and dosages that the FDA specifically declined to approve due to safety concerns,” and paid a $1.3 billion criminal fine, the DOJ said in a statement. Bextra had been taken off the market four years earlier.

Additionally, Pfizer paid $1 billion to resolve civil claims regarding not only Bextra but also the antipsychotic Geodon, the antibiotic Zyvox, and the anti-epileptic drug Lyrica, per the statement. Pfizer denied all of those accusations, aside from acknowledging the improper promotion of Zyvox, Reuters reported at the time."

"“Moderna: Has never brought a vaccine to market since its founding, despite fielding 9+ vaccine candidates, none of which made it through phase 3 clinical trials,” the meme alleged.

Similarly to the Pfizer allegation, the claim was rooted in truth. But the statement failed to explain how it was relevant to Moderna’s COVID-19 vaccine, as well as erroneously implied the company’s other vaccines did not reach mass distribution solely because of shortcomings in the products themselves, such as their effect on patients or alleged lack of success preventing viral outbreaks.

Rather, other barriers — such as a lack of funding for research — also played a role in the pharmaceutical company’s vaccine history."

"Moderna’s Influenza H7N9 vaccine was only advancing “subject to funding,” negating the meme’s implication that the company halted development solely due to safety concerns or ineffectiveness.

Furthermore, Moderna’s Cytomegalovirus (CMV) vaccine was the first of its kind to enter a Phase II clinical trial, showed “promising” results so far, and was scheduled to progress in 2021, The Medicine Maker reported. Studies on the company’s other immunizations remained ongoing, too."

That's enough of me doing someone else's homework; you can find similar lack of context for J&J and AstraZeneca if you are inclined to research the facts.

What's become abundantly clear to me is that some (here and in general as seen on social media, etc) have adopted the worst type of "scientific process"; start with a conclusion and then work backwards, often leaving themselves with having to force facts to fit that conclusion.

That approach is best summed up by the acronym GIGO-Garbage in, garbage out.

As I said in my last post, liars lie, facts don't.

From: azelkhntr
26-Dec-21
From. Grey Ghost

And, to assess the risk of dying form Covid by dividing the entire world's population by the reported deaths, is kinda silly. It doesn't account for demographic variables like age, health, and exposure level to the virus, etc.

WTH? That number is the raw data. It hadn't even occurred to me to break the SJW obvious down; "demographics" (rascist); "variables like age" (ageism) "health" none of my bizness and last but not least perhaps the st thing I've read today "exposure level to the virus, etc". Measured how?

From: Jegs.mi
26-Dec-21
Who paid for and owns all the information and studies on COVID. It's impossible to know with out accepting someone's information on faith. Covid is real I had it it sucks. I guess when human beings mess with things they shouldn't bad things happen. Smart but not wise.

From: LINK
26-Dec-21
“ 98.4% survival chance in the U.S. for all ages and demographics. If your over 50 your risk goes up. But vaccines are not simply about your own risk.”

Once I have the disease, how does being vaccinated lessen the odds of me spreading it to others? It doesn’t and if the vaccine puts my health more at risk by having it why do I need to get it for others?

From: KSflatlander
26-Dec-21

KSflatlander's Link
Link- you could not be more wrong. The vaccine can and does reduce transmission by ~50% or more for symptomatic or asymptomatic people. Studies are ongoing. This is a key benefit of the vaccine. It greatly reduces transmission rate by greatly reducing the viral load in your body more than 2x faster than unvaccinated.

Mike has discussed this multiple times and posted links to studies. There is one medical journal article in the link. There are many out there if you look.

The scientific data shows that vaccines significantly reduce transmission rates. Fact.

From: LINK
26-Dec-21
I see. The kinda thing like it lessening the severity of my non existent symptoms.

From: KSflatlander
26-Dec-21
If you are asymptomatic then you can’t lessen symptoms. But you could be asymptomatic and unknowingly pass the virus onto others. The vaccine can help reduce the risk of transmission.

It’s still a fact.

From: stealthycat
26-Dec-21
NBA is approaching 25% infection rates - and they have almost 100% shots rate

the NFL is changing their testing - if you had shots, you'll not be tested unless you have visible symptoms. So many players getting positive covid testing they have decided they don't want to know. 99% of NFL has had shots

these are not breakthrough cases - its simply that the shots don't give anywhere near the protection they were sold to

also, its really flawed to take millions of people who were 99.99% likely to NOT get covid bad anyway, give them shots, and say '"hey look, they didn't get covid bad"

From: KSflatlander
26-Dec-21

KSflatlander's Link
Stealth- why do you care about what the NBA or NFL is doing? I’m not making medical decisions based on sports teams. Where are you getting the information of “25% infection rate of NBA players?”

“ The NBA is aware of 34 cases of fully vaccinated players or team staff becoming infected with a breakthrough case of COVID-19 through November 19, including 31 that had detectable levels of antibodies significantly lower than those observed in the remaining testing population, according to the report. Three of the 34 infections happened with "not detected" antibody levels, the study said.”

“ these are not breakthrough cases - its simply that the shots don't give anywhere near the protection they were sold to”

Call it whatever you want but we know for sure that antibodies drop over time whether from vaccination or natural immunity. That’s why me and my family got boosters prior to the holidays. We knew we would be at family gathering.

Again, the benefits of the vaccine is more than protection to yourself.

From: Jegs.mi
26-Dec-21
It is interesting that anyone would feel the need to justify the position of the federal government.

26-Dec-21

Phil Magistro's Link
azelkhunter, I have no idea where you are getting your information but you are not correct.

This is from nebraskamed.com -

"If you've had COVID-19 before, does your natural immunity work better than a vaccine?

The data is clear: Natural immunity is not better. The COVID-19 vaccines create more effective and longer-lasting immunity than natural immunity from infection.

- More than a third of COVID-19 infections result in zero protective antibodies - Natural immunity fades faster than vaccine immunity - Natural immunity alone is less than half as effective than natural immunity plus vaccination."

There are many more credible sites with the same information

From: DConcrete
26-Dec-21
Actually, what’s funny about reinfect cases is, there isn’t a lot of information about it.

The studies are small, and fairly inconclusive. If there were huge waves of people Becoming reinfected, it would be all over the news daily. Myself, and my personal Dr cannot find a whole lot on the subject. There’s a lot of speculation yes. But very little fact that even he can find.

From: DConcrete
26-Dec-21
And yes, I did read your article Phil.

From: DConcrete
26-Dec-21
The reason I became very curious about reinfect is because I had Covid back in early august. The rest of my family had it in mid - late July. My 13 year old just got done with Covid 2 weeks ago. So, naturally, I was curious if we’d end up with another round of it. So we began researching the topic. And looking into ACTUAL reinfect cases, there’s just not a lot there. I found one study that showed in November 2020, it was around .07 percent of cases were reinfect.

Now keep in mind, Phil, your articles are talking about antibody counts in the body. My brother was double vaxed plus booster recently. And he’s not showing antibodies in his system.

Now, the reason I view that as valid is, an ACTUAL reinfect and antibody counts are different to me. Sure, there’s lot of information on which one provides a better antibody count in the system. But, there are very very few reinfect cases documented.

26-Dec-21
Thats what I want to know:

Number of recovered, unvaccinated who later get hospitalized or die from Covid

VS

Number of vaccinated with no previous infection who get hospitalized or die from Covid.

Anecdotally, I know quite a few vaccinated people who have then had symptomatic Covid but zero people who had Covid, recovered and then had symptomatic Covid again.

That doesn't prove anything but we are all making decisions on information we have. Its human nature to be hesitant when what you see, hear and personally experience is different than what you are being told. Especially when the one telling you has a history of being wrong or shaping a narrative to fit an agenda.

From: DConcrete
26-Dec-21
I personally do not know a single person who had Covid. Recovered, remained unvaccinated, and then got Covid again.

I do however, know many people who have gotten vaccinated, and then got Covid later on.

I also know people who have gotten vaccinated, and have had way more sickness in their lives this year than they’ve ever had.

I am still of the belief that, Many medical professionals who are virologist profession, are being silenced. The bigger belief is, it’s the NEEDLESSLY vaccinated that create these variants.

Just like broad heads and bows, there’s opinions on BOTH sides of this coin.

What scares me is, we can’t ever hear the other side. There’s never been a true debate and a lot of medicalProfessionals are quiet about it for fear of being canceled.

Everyone needs to do what they see fit for themselves and their families. This thing is barreling towards enormous civil unrest.

From: Jaquomo
26-Dec-21
DConcrete, the interesting thing is that many studies by credible doctors and research teams have been pulled from the internet. These are studies showing the efficacy of alternative and prophylactic treatments for COVID besides, or in conjunction with, vaccines. Click on the links and get the "404 webpage not found" message. Hmmm...

I saw a polling statistic this morning showing @37% of Republicans are not vaccinated, vs. 8% of Democrats. If they can find that by polling, they sure can ask the questions you are asking, as well as my big question about maskers vs. non-maskers. Sure, it wouldn't be "scientific", but neither is a lot of the "official" information being fed to us by Fauci and the media. I know a number of dedicated maskers who are also vaccinated, who got COVID anyway.

From: KsRancher
26-Dec-21
Easy Jaq. Someone will be along soon to tell you your putting out "misinformation" about articles that had "misinformation" in the articles is why they were pulled.

From: bigeasygator
26-Dec-21
I clicked on the abstract of the first paper you posted that was a direct comparison of natural immunity and vaccine induced immunity. Conclusion: “Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.”

From: TGbow
26-Dec-21
Bigeasy, thats pretty much what the Israeli study said. The vaccine seems to be a little more protection when you have natural immunity and then contract the virus later. I had the Delta variant along with my wife n daughter. I believe natural immunity is better than the vaccine but that is a big gamble to take IMO. Thankfully we survived we survived it but some people dont.

From: azelkhntr
26-Dec-21
Sung to the tune of O'l Tannenbaum.

Oh omicron oh omicron; you came too late for fauXi to ruin Christmas. Oh omicron oh omicron; you only bring us sniffles and sneezes. A runny nose; some itchy eyes; a cough or two and a chilblain to shiver our hides. I remember in days of olde; (2019) we knew you as the common cold. Oh omicron oh omicron you came too late for fauXi to ruin Christmas.

From: spike78
26-Dec-21
So what is the actual death rate before the vaccines? 2%, 3%? Have they come up with an actual number? Now what is the actual death rate after the vaccines came out? Anyone know?

From: Grey Ghost
26-Dec-21
So, I walked another 11 miles busting brush for pheasants today. Fewer birds than previous weeks, but enough to make it fun. Did you boys figure it all out in my absence? :-).

Matt.

From: Jegs.mi
26-Dec-21
Azelkhunter, I can't believe you are taunting them. They built the last one. They can build the next one stronger just to spite you...........

From: spike78
26-Dec-21
Around Thanksgiving my sisters family caught the Fauci Flu and her husband was laid up in bed for 2-3 days feeling like crap. My niece and nephew only had the can’t taste symptoms. My sister tested negative and was the only one in the family to get the vaccine (J&J). Now people would think that she did not get the Covid because of the vaccine BUT during the first pandemic before the vaccines she works at a grocery store as a manager and went through the whole year without catching it meanwhile her coworkers caught it and I’m sure many customers as well. So can we conclude that the vaccine resulted in a negative test or that she is just somehow immune to the virus? The answer is we will never know but the government would say in its studies that it was due to the vaccine. On a side note I have yet to catch it (knock on wood) despite being around coworkers that did have it. My mom did test positive but had zero symptoms at 80 years old and with lung cancer. Can we conclude that certain family genes may be immune? Who knows? I just thought I’d share this as some interesting facts.

From: yooper89
26-Dec-21
People forget that it was Trump that fast tracked these vaccines

From: DConcrete
26-Dec-21
Yep you’re right yooper . But that still won’t change anything for me.

From: Jaquomo
26-Dec-21

Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Matt. no pheasants here, but catching a lot of big rainbows through the ice. Woke up to 31 elk in my yard on Christmas morning!

From: Knifeman
27-Dec-21

Knifeman's embedded Photo
Knifeman's embedded Photo
fixed

27-Dec-21
I mostly stay off these threads. No one reading this is changing their mind no matter what. Everyone has “their” facts that they believe. I am an Emergency physician and work in an Academic Medical Center. At my hospital we have a team of experts from our ICU, Pharmacy, Infectious disease and so on that meet every week to do their very best to set policy and procedure to do our best to care for people with COVID and prevent spread in staff. These people have dedicated their entire adult lives to helping people with a wide range of health problems. They treat COVID like every other illness they regularly care for. Carefully evaluate the scientific data and make recommendations based on the information. Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine were carefully evaluated at my hospital and didn't meet criteria for use. Vaccines did. Monoclonal antibodies did. At our hospital and region 75% of hospitalized patients haven't been fully vaccinated. About 80% of our ICU patients haven't been fully vaccinated. (2 shots). Our team reviewed data that showed that vaccinated people are less likely to spread COVID. That is the guidance we give. What I can assure you is that everyone I work with is doing their best to help people and make them better. We get no extra money for using monoclonal antibodies over Ivermectin. None. We use what we believe is best based on scientific evidence to do our very best to help people get better from whatever they are suffering from including COVID. I know I havent changed anyone’s mind but please know that the therapies I and my colleagues use are what we believe are best after careful , data driven research. Hope everyone has a restful holiday and be safe.

27-Dec-21
Dr. Steve, thank you for sharing.

Obviously there will be folks who believe the story of a brother-in-law’s grade school friend over your rational post.

27-Dec-21
Stonegirl do you not believe anything your rheumatologist tells you or only the COVID information?

27-Dec-21
Better yet, tell us your qualifications Stonegirl, besides your open mind to question everything.

27-Dec-21

Ricky The Cabel Guy's Link
"Whatever, be scared. For smart people, stop giving your loved ones graphene oxide."

covid19 vaccines do not contain graphene oxide.

27-Dec-21
retarted

OK, LOL! You are so much smarter than a doctor, you just don't know how to use spell check.

27-Dec-21
Don’t trust your doctors, so tell us where you get your expert advice from? Newsmax, Tucker Carlson?

If doctors are so terrible, why do you even bother consulting with them? That’s stupidity!

Any of you have loved ones who have faced serious health challenges recently AND realize the major advances taking place with complex issues like lung cancer and how many lives have been extended? Science is causing this to happen, not rhetoric from ignorant keyboard warriors.

You bet China is laughing at us and our education system.

27-Dec-21
You are not as smart as you think you are, not even close.

I don’t get advice from a mechanic I don’t trust, why would I take advice from a doctor I don’t trust.

From: Mike in CT
27-Dec-21
Frank,

Well "Stonegirl" may have just broken the Bowsite record for "fastest new poster to be shown the exit door".

I wonder if not knowing the difference between "you're" and "your" was the last straw after "retarted".....

27-Dec-21
LOL!

27-Dec-21
Reminded me of Shawn. Probably thought the female pseudonym would garner some emotional support.

From: Orion
27-Dec-21
I would take natural immunity over manufactured any day of the week. The way they have underplayed natural immunity during the course of this whole pandemic is very questionable.

From: scentman
27-Dec-21
I'm not sure bout the subject of this thread other than your assessment of Stonegirl... that I agree with. Bou has made me a skeptic;0)

27-Dec-21
^ No I suggest you look into polio and smallpox vaccines just to name two.

27-Dec-21
AZELK I think you have brought a big spoon to stir this pot. You are good at it.

From: bigeasygator
27-Dec-21
Natural immunity has always trumped anything that man can concoct in a lab.

LOL. azelkhuntr, you provide some of the most uninformed posts on these COVID threads, but that one may take the cake!

From: azelkhntr
27-Dec-21
From: Jerry Leblanc27-Dec-21Private Reply AZELK I think you have brought a big spoon to stir this pot. You are good at it.

I resent that thought of yours. I, unlike one in this discussion, have zero skin in this farce. I stand to gain nothing if you choose to take the experimental drugs, or not. My motivations are Christian in nature. If I can convince one man not to make a catastrophic decision for his family and self then I've done my Duty. You have zero responsibility to have strange and unknown substances injected into you for the good of the whole. That's a Marxist philosophical prelate. I'm a champion for the individual and their Rights to Freedom of choice and conscience. My conscience is clear. As long as the powers that be keep pushing the individuals into corners I'll keep pushing back. This is a man you should listen to.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/12/italian-archbishop-vigano-sends-message-american-people-2/

From: TD
27-Dec-21

From: stealthycat
27-Dec-21
"Again, the benefits of the vaccine is more than protection to yourself."

The more time that goes by, the less and less the above is true.

Biden said "very very low" chance to get covid if you've had the shot - that's has not proven to be true at all.

The NBA/NFL is healthy strong young men .... and they're getting covid at high rates and the shots are not preventing/stopping that. I think it matters to look at things like that

and again, you cannot take 100 people that are 99.9% chance not going to get sick from covid, give them shots and say "look how great the shots worked, they didn't get bad sick from covid !!"

that's what's happening - how about take sampling from 65 years and older people who are already sick/compromised/obese and tell me what % success the shots have been at preventing covid - I'd like to see those stats

I was forced to get the shot - and I will never get another. I felt horrible for 72 hours physically but mentally, I still feel horrible from being bullied/threatened with my job to get it. Next time, they can fire me and I'll get a lawyer and see where it goes

From: azelkhntr
27-Dec-21
Another voice in the wilderness.

https://rumble.com/vrg9nv-dr.-nathan-thompson-bloodwork-on-vaxxed-patient-is-terrifying.html

27-Dec-21
AZELK I stand corrected as to your intent. I mistakenly interpreted your sometimes outrageous statements to be intended to promote a response. Now that I know you believe what you write it I am even more concerned for your lack of research and willingness to express opinion as fact. One thought I had is what if you are wrong and you convince someone's to avoid a vaccine and they die from covid when had then been vaccinated they might have survived. I know you will say what if the opposite is true and you save someone from the vaccine. I think you should leave the advice to the experts.

From: 70lbDraw
27-Dec-21
“One thought I had is what if you are wrong and you convince someone's to avoid a vaccine and they die from covid when had then been vaccinated they might have survived?”

Are we removing personal responsibilities from our social construct? Is this why the left wants to censor everything? Because some people are too ignorant to think for themselves. Life is difficult…even more so if you go thru it deaf, dumb, and blind.

From: Mike in CT
27-Dec-21

Mike in CT's Link
"and again, you cannot take 100 people that are 99.9% chance not going to get sick from covid, give them shots and say "look how great the shots worked, they didn't get bad sick from covid !!""

I'd advise you to research how data has been compiled for the COVID-19 pandemic (and this is exactly how it has been kept for every preceding epidemic by the way); it's obvious from that statement that you lack an understanding of the process at even the most basic level.

The attached link is but one of literally hundreds I could post that show essentially the same success story; for your edification I'll highlight the >65 year old demographic (FYI-if you are in the camp that sees "CDC" and immediately discounts what follows let me advise you that MMWR comes from reportable disease findings from every hospital and health care entity in all 50 states; they provide the data to their state DOH's who in turn roll it up to the CDC):

For the period of data collection in the cited source (up to July 17, 2021)

85% of the cases of COVID occurred in the population not fully vaccinated

88% of the hospitalizations for COVID occurred in the population not fully vaccinated

90% of the deaths from COVID occurred in the population not fully vaccinated.

With all due respect; anyone who opines that the vaccines haven't been effective in preventing serious illness and mortality is either in complete denial or simply hasn't been looking very hard to find the mountains of evidence supporting their effectiveness.

27-Dec-21
Or Mike they have an agenda.

27-Dec-21
70,

Private freedoms must be balanced against our responsibility to society at large, at least for those of us who interact with others.

This position is ethically and morally sound, we have responsibilities to life, both born and unborn.

27-Dec-21
or theyre as dumb as a bag of hammers.

27-Dec-21
Chuck,

Let’s say you are correct and that natural immunity will prove to last longer.

At least for many here, that does not negate the position of encouraging safe vaccines to reduce suffering and death in the here and now as we learn more with passing time.

Again, I am convinced this is the moral and ethical position on par with protecting the unborn that so many rightfully advance for a just society.

From: 70lbDraw
27-Dec-21
"70, Private freedoms must be balanced against our responsibility to society at large, at least for those of us who interact with others."

My point is, if I had a reason to feel I was in grave danger with Covid, I wouldn’t be counting on my fellow citizens to keep me safe! Would you?

27-Dec-21
I count on fellow citizens to act responsibly so as to reduce our risk. I believe in karma, if you treat others like they are losers and idiots, they will extend the same back to you.

From: spike78
27-Dec-21
Well now the word is that the vaccines aren’t effective against Omicron and also that Omicron is less severe. So now should the vaccines still be pushed and mandated? I’d much rather blow my nose with Omicron then have potential blood clots by a vaccine that won’t work.

From: azelkhntr
27-Dec-21
"70, Private freedoms must be balanced against our responsibility to society at large,"

This is absolute hogwash. I have zero responsibility to society at large. ZERO! I only have responsibility to GOD, my family and my country but not to society at large. However how I conduct myself personally and professionally is a benefit to society and its advancements to maintain our Liberties. This hits at the endless propaganda that says "you need to get vaccinated so that my vaccine will work."

From: 70lbDraw
27-Dec-21
"I count on fellow citizens to act responsibly so as to reduce our risk. I believe in karma, if you treat others like they are losers and idiots, they will extend the same back to you."

So, if YOUR life depended on it, would YOU still be out in public feeling comfortable that 100% of the people around you give a damn about your health risk?!

27-Dec-21
Keeping freedom is the best thing there is for society

27-Dec-21
My read on the Bible is we are our brothers’ keepers. You stand before Him and explain it was only about you and nothing more, then explain why the need to send his only begotten son and disciples to spread the word.

From: Orion
27-Dec-21
Well the CDC just lowered the quarantine period from 10 to 5 days even for the unvaccinated.

From: 70lbDraw
27-Dec-21
"My read on the Bible is we are our brothers’ keepers."

As we all know, not everyone follows the same religion.

So are you saying you trust everyone around you, or that god will keep you safe from everyone around you? It really is a simple question.

27-Dec-21
70,

Juvenile debate tactic. Ask a ridiculous question trying to walk someone into to a non-defensible position.

No, especially at my age, I don’t trust everyone. Nor do I find a conspiracy in everything as your history here shows.

Those not willing to accept moral/ethical justifications still lose on the secular side as pointed out with my first post. We must be held accountable for our externalities.

No man is an island Az, no matter how much you try and sell it.

From: Shuteye
27-Dec-21
Japan and India have stopped using the vaccine. They use ivermectin and some other stuff and just about have Covid whipped. There are a couple other countries that are starting the same thing.

From: bigeasygator
27-Dec-21
Japan and India have stopped using the vaccine. They use ivermectin and some other stuff and just about have Covid whipped.

That’s not true. In Japan, they are still using the vaccine, they have a relatively high vaccination rate, and ivermectin is not approved for use on COVID.

From: 70lbDraw
27-Dec-21
“70, Juvenile debate tactic. Ask a ridiculous question trying to walk someone into to a non-defensible position.”

Like I said, it’s a simple yes or no. What’s juvenile or ridiculous about a straight forward question? It doesn’t give you the opportunity to twist your reply with if’s and butts? Seems the juvenile action is your effort to deflect a simple question. You’re on the side that wants to convince everyone to participate. So, sell it to us in a way we understand. Problem is, over the last 2 years it’s made no sense at all. I believe there are plenty here that agree with that statement. I think you agree as well, but after 2 years, nothing has changed to bolster your stance. Or anyone else’s for that matter.

From: Mike in CT
27-Dec-21
Chuck,

I have no problem with you or anyone challenging anything I post; with respect though I'd take it much better if it wasn't so apparent that you didn't read what I posted. Your referencing 2020 is odd given the link I posted was for the MMWR data from April-July 2021; 2020 data wasn't included.

Additionally, I also said the following: "The attached link is but one of literally hundreds I could post that show essentially the same success story;"; if you look up what population is comprising the bulk (80-90% and up) of hospitalizations, ICU beds and mortality it is the unvaccinated. In the spirit of generosity I'll give you a head start; look up PA, WA, IN, SC and GA. You'll find data that runs along the exact same lines as what I posted and in some cases (some other states you can look up if you like) the data is as recent as a few weeks ago.

I'm sorry but the vaccines are being effective in mitigating against severe illnesses and mortality; this point is not even remotely arguable.

I'll reiterate my earlier point; those who claim otherwise are either deep in denial, haven't been looking very hard or to quote Ricky, "have an agenda."

From: Grey Ghost
27-Dec-21
Confirmation bias is such an ugly plaque on our society these days. Shuteye's post is proof.

Matt

27-Dec-21
70,

You received an answer, one that fits the complexity of the situation. Simpletons like simple answers, too bad most of life is not so simple.

From: Shuteye
27-Dec-21

Shuteye's embedded Photo
Shuteye's embedded Photo

From: Grey Ghost
27-Dec-21
We're in a world of hurt when more people choose to believe misinformation from social media memes instead of peer-reviewed and published information from the likes of the Mayo Clinic, John Hopkins, Cleveland Clinic, and our own Mike in CT. I guess the concept of critical thinking using credible sources is gone. Now, it's all about finding rhetoric that supports your own desired biases, regardless of how credible and factual it is. Back in the day when I first joined the Bowsite, you'd get shamed and disgraced for that type behavior. And you'd often get banned from the site all together. My how times have changed.

Matt

From: Jegs.mi
27-Dec-21
Habitat, Why are you being rude. If you're frustrated take a walk. If you're desire is to change someone's mind talking down isn't going to get it done. Do doctors practice medicine or healing?

From: scentman
27-Dec-21
No one person knows the long term effects of a vaccine shot, especially in a young person... five yrs from now and you start seeing birth defects or long term health problems added on to our already staggering health issues in America. What than will your responses be? Oh, we had no idea??? Like one poster stated... you don't care about me... basically you care about how you are seen in others eyes... pompous bs... just want to one up the next guy. That's my vent, I feel better;0)

From: spike78
27-Dec-21
Matt when Covid numbers are inflated by labeling every death due to Covid we tend to dismiss as one of the other stuff spewed to us. Go to Infowars and look up Covidland and watch it with an open mind. I know you will scream conspiracy theory but funny part is everything I watched was actually valid and even had things to back it up. When you hear about everything where you just shake your head like collapsing this economy on purpose you then realize it’s by design and people highly more intelligent then you and I can’t possibly be that stupid.

From: 70lbDraw
27-Dec-21
“70, You received an answer, one that fits the complexity of the situation. Simpletons like simple answers, too bad most of life is not so simple."

I got your answer…all I can say is the more you deflect, the more obvious the real answer becomes.

From: Grey Ghost
27-Dec-21
Brad,

Why would I go to a source like "Infowars and Covidland" to find information? I've never even heard of those sources. Thanks, I'll stick with proven sources like the Mayo Clinic, John Hopkins, and Mike in CT for my information on Covid. YMMV.

Matt

27-Dec-21
400 woohoo! And not one of you have changed anyone's mind.

From: Grey Ghost
27-Dec-21
"400 woohoo! And not one of you have changed anyone's mind."

So you're a mind reader? That must be a great talent to have. Care to share how you acquired it?

Matt

27-Dec-21
Go easy there Matt. I'm kinda sensitive :^) Can you say that you have changed anyone's mind? I'm sure another thd. will eventually pop up and the same people will be arguing the same thing. Over and over and over and over..........

Happy New Year bother.

27-Dec-21
Kegs, 70,

“ No, especially at my age, I don’t trust everyone.”

I answered with a yes or no. How am I being rude?

From: Shuteye
27-Dec-21
The Mayo Clinic did an article on Ivermectin and reported good results. Also doctors that actually see patients every day report Ivermectin is very good. However, they are kept off TV and banished by the drug companies. Ivermectin is very cheap to produce and millions of people have been using it for years with no problems. 'The drug companies make a fortune on the vaccines and do not want the word to get out that therapeutics are very effective. The media and many politicians are owned by drug companies. A close relative of mine is not vaccinated and he got Covid just before Christmas. His mother got him Ivermectin and the hospital let him take it. Two days later he was home feeling fine. They were getting ready to put him on one of those breathing machines but didn't have to. She told me she had to jump through hoops to get the pills but has more if I get sick.

From: Grey Ghost
27-Dec-21
Shuteye,

Cite your sources, or I’ll continue to think of you as a sheep who believes any misinformation that confirms his biases. I can’t find a single Mayo Clinic article that supports the use of Ivermectin to treat Covid.

Matt

From: Jegs.mi
27-Dec-21
If you have to ask reread your post.

From: bluedog
27-Dec-21

bluedog's Link
Here is one from the Mayo Clinic...

"Ivermectin. Ivermectin isn't a drug for treating viruses and the FDA hasn’t approved use of this drug to treat or prevent COVID-19. Taking large doses of this drug can cause serious harm. Don't use medications intended for animals on yourself.

Hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine. These malaria drugs were authorized for emergency use by the FDA during the COVID-19 pandemic. However, the FDA withdrew that authorization when data analysis showed that the drugs are not effective for treating COVID-19. They can also cause serious heart problems."

27-Dec-21
It wasn’t rude, I called it the way it is.

From: Grey Ghost
27-Dec-21
Bluedog is no sheep. I’ve known that for over 20 years.

Nice to hear from you, Dan

Matt

From: Stix
27-Dec-21
There's alot of false information on the internet regarding Ivermectin. From Japan discontinuing the vaccines and using solely Ivermectin to false info regarding it's efficacy.

I wonder if the internet was around during the smallpox and polio pandemics, and the amount of conspiracy theories and false information was as widespread as it is now, if those pandemics would have ever been resolved.

Guys, let the people with medical expertise do their jobs, separating this from politics. It's your choice on the vaccine, but don't forward false information to substantiate your choice. It just causes further division. Just say I choose not to get it, my personal choice. That would go a long way in promoting your view..

From: Jegs.mi
27-Dec-21
Well I guess it's your thread. So you can talk however you want. Read your post and think about how you come across.........ok that's it timeout.

From: Jaquomo
27-Dec-21

Jaquomo's Link
Draw your own conclusions. Make your own choices after consulting with your trusted doctor. This is from the NIH. The "Fauci" NIH.

"Meta-analysis of 15 trials found that ivermectin reduced risk of death compared with no ivermectin (average risk ratio 0.38, 95% confidence interval 0.19–0.73; n = 2438; I2 = 49%; moderate-certainty evidence). This result was confirmed in a trial sequential analysis using the same DerSimonian–Laird method that underpinned the unadjusted analysis. This was also robust against a trial sequential analysis using the Biggerstaff–Tweedie method. Low-certainty evidence found that ivermectin prophylaxis reduced COVID-19 infection by an average 86% (95% confidence interval 79%–91%). Secondary outcomes provided less certain evidence. Low-certainty evidence suggested that there may be no benefit with ivermectin for “need for mechanical ventilation,” whereas effect estimates for “improvement” and “deterioration” clearly favored ivermectin use. Severe adverse events were rare among treatment trials and evidence of no difference was assessed as low certainty. Evidence on other secondary outcomes was very low certainty.

Conclusions:

Moderate-certainty evidence finds that large reductions in COVID-19 deaths are possible using ivermectin. Using ivermectin early in the clinical course may reduce numbers progressing to severe disease. The apparent safety and low cost suggest that ivermectin is likely to have a significant impact on the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic globally."

"Three studies involving 738 participants evaluated ivermectin for COVID-19 prophylaxis among health care workers and COVID-19 contacts. Meta-analysis of these 3 trials, assessing 738 participants, found that ivermectin prophylaxis among health care workers and COVID-19 contacts probably reduces the risk of COVID-19 infection by an average of 86% (79%–91%) (3 trials, 738 participants; aRR 0.14, 95% CI 0.09–0.21; 5.0% vs. 29.6% contracted COVID-19, respectively"

From: bigeasygator
28-Dec-21

bigeasygator's Link
Lou, the study you reference is not a clinical trial, but a meta-analysis of smaller trials that gets combined to increase the sample size and create more confidence in the outcome. Often times the smaller studies are not properly controlled and subject to bias. There are a lot of other meta analysis done for Ivermectin, and some of the others have shown the drug provides no statistically significant benefit (I’ve linked to another such meta analysis on Ivermectin). As far as I know, clinical trials are still ongoing but none have resulted in a compelling case for authorizing the drug for use as a COVID treatment. I think it would be great if one did, as the more arrows we have in our quiver to fight this disease the better off we are.

From: bigeasygator
28-Dec-21
I know Mike doesn’t need me to defend him, but your post just shows how out of touch with reality you actually are, azelkhuntr. Mike has a Masters in microbiology and is more qualified than just about anyone on this board to discuss epidemiology and virology than anyone on the thread (and no, many experts in these fields aren’t actually medical doctors). Mike has done nothing but separate what is scientific fact from the lies and misinformation the likes of you and others continue to perpetuate. Beyond looking like a total buffoon in your posts, to somehow insinuate or threaten a man’s employment - a man who has been a long respected member and contributor these forums - further shows all we need to know about your character.

From: scentman
28-Dec-21
Big easy, that was a good Sheriff Burford T. Pusser at the end of your post;0)

From: Stix
28-Dec-21
Lou, thanks for posting, but my engineering background does give me insight to analyze data. These meta-analysis can favor both pro and con depending on how it was inputted. There's no control on the small sample inputs as there is in controlled clinical trials. The average Joe will read them and come up with a conclusion based on how data was inputted. In other words the data can be skewed.

Regardless on your right to choose or not choose a vaccine, my question still remains that if there was this level of misinformation going to the mass on the smallpox and polio vaccines, if those pandemics would have ever been closed. I believe the answer was the people trusted their medical professionals, separated their politics from medicine, and made their informed choices. These same conspiracy theories and meta-analysis's could have been made on the smallpox and polio vaccines too.

From: Jaquomo
28-Dec-21
BEG, I understand, and that is why I suggested drawing your own conclusions. The NIH link I posted was a meta-analysis of 15 trials and 24 randomized trials. Your link was a meta-analysis of 23 trials. Isn't it interesting how two completely different conclusions can be drawn?

My doctor and his team, and their colleagues, have concluded from both multiple study results and the results from their patients that a strict combination of therapeutics, including ivermectin, HCQ, hydrogen peroxide, and a vitamin regimen have shown demonstrable results both prophylactically, and after infection. They aren't advising for or against the vaccine, but rather prescribing what they believe to be enhanced treatment since the vaccine has proven over time to not prevent infection.

They aren't on the payroll of "Big Ivermectin", only prescribing what they believe to be the best course of prevention and treatment for their patients. YMMV.

From: Grey Ghost
28-Dec-21
"These same conspiracy theories and meta-analysis's could have been made on the smallpox and polio vaccines too."

And they were for years, even after those vaccines had proven extremely effective. Anti-vaccine denialism and fear mongering are nothing new. The sad thing is you will never hear a denialist admit he was wrong, even in the face of mountains of proof.

Matt

From: Shuteye
28-Dec-21
I am a retired chemical engineer and spent years working in R&D. I know what it takes to make a proven product. It can take years and a lot of effort to get a patent on a product. Some of our patents were in the medical field so I know how to analyze information. One patent we had was the 45th version of trials. I worked with a man that got checks from Johnson & Johnson until the day he died from one of his patents. I did most of my work in emulsion polymerization however.

From: azelkhntr
28-Dec-21
From: Mike in CT27-Dec-21Private Reply

I'll reiterate my earlier point; those who claim otherwise are either deep in denial, haven't been looking very hard or to quote Ricky, "have an agenda."

And the pot calls the kettle black.

From: spike78
28-Dec-21
In the grand scheme of things it really doesn’t matter. If you a severely ill and you take Ivermectin and vitamins in the hopes that it makes you better what’s the problem?

From: Grey Ghost
28-Dec-21

Grey Ghost's Link
"If you a severely ill and you take Ivermectin and vitamins in the hopes that it makes you better what’s the problem?"

No problem, unless any of these potential side effects concern you, among others:

- Low Levels Of White Blood Cells - Increased Eosinophils In The Blood - Hemorrhage From The Conjunctiva Of The Eye - Low Blood Pressure - Worsening Asthma - Inflammation Of The Liver Called Hepatitis - A Skin Disorder With Blistering And Peeling Skin Called Toxic Epidermal Necrolysis - A Skin Disorder With Blistering And Peeling Skin Called Stevens-Johnson Syndrome - Seizures - High Amount Of Bilirubin In The Blood - Abnormal Liver Function Tests - Mazzotti Reaction, A Reaction Resulting From The Treatment Of A Parasite Infection

Matt

From: Mike in CT
28-Dec-21
"And the pot calls the kettle black."

You know Az I was going to ignore your since-removed post as it had been dealt with rather well by Jason (BEG) but seeing as you insist on flouting your own hypocrisy I'll address the issue.

In the post of yours that was deservingly removed you implied I had an agenda and possibly a financial incentive; why then would I post supporting the use of HCQ when given early onset as this might preclude not only treatment but the severe symptoms of COVID-19? A rational person would immediately recognize this would be counter to the proposed self-interest but as you continue to demonstrate you are far from being a rational person.

A person who posts from an agenda driven basis by and large posts opinions or cites questionable sources; you've done both while I have consistently cited factual data and provided sources. Allow me to refresh your memory:

"I've posted 7 sources, some of which not only give breakdowns of vaccinated versus unvaccinated but also give increased risk based on vaccination status; review those numbers and if you feel you have a valid argument, by all means make one."

Your response? Complete avoidance of dealing with those facts when they are easily checked and character assassination.

Pot calling the kettle black? Laughable given you offer this as a testament to your own motivations ""My motivations are Christian in nature."

Your actions make a mockery of that statement; when specious arguments and outright falsehoods of yours are shown to be exactly that by factual arguments (along with supporting citations) you simply slink off for a day or 2 and then re-vomit the same falsehoods with perhaps a few more added for good measure.

Your seek to position your stance as being from the moral high ground yet act in an amoral if not immoral manner. You are in fact the worst type of hypocrite; the one who seeks to wrap themselves in a blanket of piety while being as far removed from a state of grace as one can be.

As bad as that affliction is it's made worse by your complete lack of self-awareness; anyone who acts as you have and has the audacity to position themselves as acting in a Christian manner is more than a few fries shy of a Happy Meal.

Again, look at every cited source I've posted and make a fact-based challenge if you feel anything is wrong. The only "agenda" I've ever had is to provide accurate information; sources are provided because trust has to be earned and to some here I'm simply a handle on a computer screen. I want doubters to fact-check me, I welcome it.

When you have something of value to offer on this subject by all means fire away. If it's just more of the same pablum you seem to think constitutes productive dialogue then kindly confine yourself to the sites that seem to embrace that close-minded approach.

You'll find many who post here have IQ's well north of Forrest Gump....

From: Shuteye
28-Dec-21
Wib, well said.

28-Dec-21
Wib,

I believe every one of us has admitted the decision should be made by each individual, using a rational process. Some of us believe a rational process should be based on facts, facts such as peer reviewed data from scientific studies. Facts, nothing else.

From: Jaquomo
28-Dec-21
Matt, of course there are side effects from improper use of Ivermectin, HCQ, etc.., just as with almost anything in our lives. Even aspirin. You can die from over hydration from drinking too much water. That's why my doctor prescribed very specific dosages based upon my weight, age, and asthma consideration. My wife's dosages are very different from mine because she is younger, much smaller, and does not have any respiratory issues.

I have asthma and Pulmonary Hypertension. I chose to get three shots. Now I'm covering my bases based upon recommendations from my doctor. Their patients have experienced none of the adverse effects you listed, because they aren't taking the supplements willy nilly. I have friends who have been taking veterinary-grade ivermectin as a prophylactic for almost two years. None have been vaccinated, none have contracted the virus, and none have had any adverse side effects.

28-Dec-21
"Therapeutics are being overlooked by the mainstream, Lord Fauci has not approved of any of them yet..."

since when does fauci approve drugs?

From: Orion
28-Dec-21
You don't thing the masses especially the lefty's wouldn't jump all over ivermectin if Fauci said it worked? Heck look how many lefty's were against the vaccine when Trump was rolling it out, don't belive me go look at their interviews and tweets none of them aged well. I don't know maybe Fauci is too busy killing dogs to look into ivermectin.

28-Dec-21
2/3 of US vaccinated, some other amount with natural immunity, and many at very low risk but more deaths in 2021 than 2020.

Resources need to be shifted to finding a better vaccine and better treatment.

28-Dec-21
Without the vaccines the death rate would have been even higher as more people came into contact with it.

From: DConcrete
28-Dec-21
Oh please…..

From: Orion
28-Dec-21
How do you figure we went almost a year with no vaccine and the death rate wasn't higher then it is now with a vaccine

From: Jaquomo
28-Dec-21
Frank, with all due respect, that sounds good but we will never really know, will we?

Without the deer slaughter the death rate would have been even higher as more deer came in contact with CWD. Or not. :-)

From: Mike in CT
28-Dec-21
"Without the vaccines the death rate would have been even higher as more people came into contact with it."

Actually this statement is factually accurate. Case fatality rate (CFR) for COVID or for any disease for that matter is based on the number of confirmed cases divided into the number of confirmed deaths.

I believe it was late spring or so in 2020 when the CFR in the US hovered around 5.6%; as treatments improved (and in some cases it was avoiding certain things like ventilation of patients) the CFR came down appreciably but was still higher than where we are today at 1.5-1.6%.

We can certainly examine data for severe illness/hospitalization (ICU bed occupancy) and mortality and see that the range for those categories across the US is between 80-95% for unvaccinated individuals. Earlier in this thread I posted links to this data from 7 states so these statistics can be easily verified.

Given this it's hard to argue with Frank's statement; there's no shortage of data we can look at to see it's not a stretch by any means.

From: spike78
28-Dec-21
Question for you Vaxers? If your sick in the hospital and your doctor hands you Ivermectin are you gonna say no?

From: Orion
28-Dec-21
I'm also curious if these pro vaxers were as pro vax when Trump was in charge or if they took a sharp 180 like most of the leftist once they took charge

From: Orion
28-Dec-21
Mike can you really say that? Can we not credit survival of the fittest and that the weak have been weeded out or are we going to say the vaccine saved the world. Are you going to say for a fact that the death rate would not have decreased at all without a vaccine?

From: Mike in CT
28-Dec-21

Mike in CT's Link
Ryan,

Yes, we can say that for the reasons I described above. While we saw a decrease in the CFR during the second half of 2020 it still remained between slightly less than half of today's CFR to slightly more.

Some of this we can ascribe to a better understanding of how to treat the disease and to an extent precautions put in place. I wouldn't put too much stock in "survival of the fittest" as we have a disease that still targets the same demographics and we haven't "weeded out" sufficient numbers in the vulnerability camp to account for the decrease in the CFR we see currently.

What I'm saying is we have empirical data we can review and across the 50 states it shows significantly higher mortality rates in the unvaccinated; by that metric alone the case is made for the vaccines preventing a higher number of deaths.

With respect the last sentence is pretty much a straw man argument as a)I've never claimed there would have been no decrease in the CFR absent a vaccine (and posted a decrease in my post above) and b)as we have moved to less virulent variants there would be a natural reduction in the CFR.

Link shows graphical depiction of countries (not just the US) death rates for vaccinated versus unvaccinated. Again, the evidence is plain for all to see.

From: Orion
28-Dec-21
Here is a good quote that should sum up this thread: “The vaccine helps protect the vaccinated from dying, but it does not protect the vaccinated from either getting or spreading COVID. In other words, it seems clear to many of us that the vaccine is a personal health benefit, not a public health benefit. Therefore, whether to get vaccinated is a profoundly personal decision, not a public health decision. And not everyone is high-risk.”

From: stealthycat
28-Dec-21
Mike in CT don't be condescending, you don't have to do that and please don't talk down to me ..... you don't know my intelligence, my background, what I know or don't know on covid etc right ? nor I you

again I point to a very controlled group - pro NBA/NFL players - almost 100% shots, and what, 20-25% infection rates ?

that's horrible - and considering the infection rates of the same group before they had their shots ? its not hard to see just how ineffective the shots are .... at least longterm

me? I never wanted one, and I won't get another or boosters (that's my opinion today) and if I had kids under 18 no WAY would I get them shots. That's just me - others I support if they choose to get shots and I'd ask they support me in return

From: Mike in CT
28-Dec-21

Mike in CT's Link
"The vaccine helps protect the vaccinated from dying, but it does not protect the vaccinated from either getting or spreading COVID. In other words, it seems clear to many of us that the vaccine is a personal health benefit, not a public health benefit.:

No, viral loads in vaccinated individuals decline more rapidly than in non-vaccinated individuals. One can look up several studies that point out this fact; so vaccination is providing a public health benefit.

Interestingly enough, natural immunity likewise provides a similar benefit though I seriously doubt you'd be arguing that naturally immune persons don't benefit the public health.

The quote that would probably best sum up this thread is "The facts are out there and they are readily obtainable. As vaccination should be a personal choice so is a search for the facts. As is the case with vaccination it appears there is a sizable population that exercises the personal choice not to search for the facts."

https://news.arizona.edu/story/covid-19-vaccine-reduces-severity-length-viral-load-those-who-still-get-infected

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/

https://www.boston.com/news/coronavirus/2021/12/02/harvard-study-covid-vaccinated-infectious-period/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-crucial-vaccine-benefit-were-not-talking-about-enough1/

From: azelkhntr
28-Dec-21
If the X-vaxs are only providing relief of symptoms: allegedly: doesn't that imply they are no worse nor better then the therapeutics? The CDC had to redefine the definition of vaccines to cya themselves here.

28-Dec-21
Lou,

Looks like I am due even more respect from you now;-)

Orion,

I respect everyone’s right to make their own decision on this. Same position I have held pre and post Trump. (Will say it again…loved 95 percent plus of his administration’s policies, did not and still do not respect him enough to listen to any advice he might throw our way.)

I will stay with “it’s your choice” right up to, and if, we have solid incontrovertible evidence the vaccines are a net plus to society and far outweigh the externalities they may create. Then I would support mandates, same position I have held on polio, smallpox etc.

I wonder how many of you have changed positions with this vaccination because of politics.

From: Grey Ghost
28-Dec-21
"...you don't know my intelligence, my background, what I know or don't know on covid etc right ?"

So, why don't you tell us? Mike's credentials and background are well documented on this and other threads. And he's been very kind to share with us what he knows about this topic, which is far more than any of us will ever know, BTW.

Matt

From: Mike in CT
28-Dec-21
"Mike in CT don't be condescending, you don't have to do that and please don't talk down to me ..... you don't know my intelligence, my background, what I know or don't know on covid etc right ? nor I you again I point to a very controlled group - pro NBA/NFL players - almost 100% shots, and what, 20-25% infection rates ?"

I posted a response based on what you posted; if you feel it was condescending one of two factors are in play; either 1)you are overly sensitive (an all-too common occurrence in the age of participation trophies) or 2)you feel what you post, however inaccurate should somehow be exempt from criticism.

For an example, you again point to the NBA players "infection rate"; if you understood infection simply means detectable levels of a pathogen and does not equal presentation of symptoms you wouldn't be placing the emphasis on it that you are. Additionally, as the vaccine was not designed to prevent infection and in healthy, immunocompetent populations presents as largely asymptomatic or only mildly symptomatic you're making much ado about nothing.

You're right that I don't know you but I do know when I see an uninformed opinion posted that only showcases a fundamental lack of understanding on the disease and the efficacy of the vaccines. And by the way, you managed to avoid discussing the >65 year old demographic where I posted information clearly showing the vaccines effectiveness.

As I've posted close to dozens of links to the kind of information you'd benefit from you'll have to pardon me if I'm not inclined to soothe your feelings over a post rife with misconceptions and errors.

From: Orion
28-Dec-21
Mike did you see Aaron Rodgers interview on Pat McAfee? Do you agree with what he said?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/aaron-rodgers-shares-what-he-s-hearing-about-nfl-teams/ar-AASdEm8?ocid=entnewsntp

From: Grey Ghost
28-Dec-21
Arron Rodgers is a great, but also egotistical, professional athlete. He's always had a history of whining about any criticism aimed at him. He publicly lied about being "inoculated", then tried to blame his dishonesty on the media. Then he lied about never talking about it again. Why would you believe anything he says about Covid over a well respected member who has made a career studying and consulting about infectious diseases?

Matt

From: azelkhntr
28-Dec-21

azelkhntr's embedded Photo
azelkhntr's embedded Photo
The big problem with natural immunity is that its innate and Big Pharma et al can't make any shekels off of it.

From: Old Reb
28-Dec-21
Mike in CT, in your response to Stealthycat you stated that the vaccine was not designed to prevent infections. It states the following on CDC.gov about the Phizer vaccine. "Based on evidence from clinical trials in people 16 years and older, the Phizer-BioNTech vaccine was 95% effective at preventing laboratory confirmed infection with the virus that causes COVID-19 in people who received two doses and had no evidence of being previously infected." Has this statement been dismissed? Since you stated that the vaccine was not designed to prevent infection, was this just an incidental finding while designing the vaccine to prevent serious illness and hospitalization?

From: DanaC
28-Dec-21
Healthimpactnews.com is owned and operated by a guy who sells coconut oil. 'Nuff said.

From: bigeasygator
28-Dec-21
Question for you Vaxers? If your sick in the hospital and your doctor hands you Ivermectin are you gonna say no?

If my doctor believes it would help I would not be saying no.

Question for you Vaxers? If your sick in the hospital and your doctor hands you Ivermectin are you gonna say no?

I think the vaccine is one of the greatest medical breakthroughs of our time. From the day they started developing and testing them (while Trump was in office) it provided the biggest hope for putting this pandemic behind us. Now that it is here, I still believe it still is the most effective tool we have in fighting this disease. These feelings have absolutely nothing to do with the political party in power or the political rhetoric surrounding the vaccine - they have to do with the mounds of scientific data available to us, from the clinical trials to the data we continue to collect on cases, hospitalizations, and deaths.

From: bigeasygator
28-Dec-21
"Based on evidence from clinical trials in people 16 years and older, the Phizer-BioNTech vaccine was 95% effective at preventing laboratory confirmed infection with the virus that causes COVID-19 in people who received two doses and had no evidence of being previously infected." Has this statement been dismissed?

No it hasn’t been “dismissed.” For one, as the virus mutates and as immunity wanes over time we can expect more breakthrough infections. Furthermore, go read Mike’s comments and articles about viral loads and the length of infection. The vaccine does not prevent every instance of COVID, but the data has continually shown that it does reduce the risk of infection, transmission, and (most importantly) serious illness and death.

From: Old Reb
28-Dec-21
The statement said 95% so I know that means that the Phizer vaccine, by its design, would not prevent every incident of COVID-19. I still believe that the original intent of the vaccine's design was to prevent infection. It was originally rated as 95% effective. It just proved over time that it was not to be.

From: Mike in CT
28-Dec-21
Old Reb,

The vaccine was actually designed to prevent serious illness and lower mortality; the CDC document you quote states what was found during clinical trials. Pfizer/BioNTech designed the vaccine to elicit the production of IgG antibodies, antibodies that target the spike protein of the SARS-CoV-2 virus and this occurs when intact virus exits receptor cells after they've multiplied.

What was unexpected was the vaccine stimulating the production of IgA antibodies that directly attack the invading virus; this was why clinical trial data showed the efficacy you cite against infection. As Jason (BEG) pointed out as we've gone from the original strain to variants that initial protection from infection has lowered but we've maintained good protection against serious illness and mortality (as demonstrated by the links I've provided from the 7 states data).

Dana,

Thanks for confirming my initial suspicion of Az's latest "source". For those who are interested hospitals are not paid "bonuses" as listed in the meme of monumental misinformation.

For inpatient billing hospitals use ICD-9 or ICD-10 coding and this is based on the discharge diagnosis. As costs increase depending on the severity of a patients illness reimbursement to the hospital increases. Obviously, the costs of treating a COVID-19 patient are significantly higher than treating a patient who does not require a bed in an ICU, continuous IV drug infusion, round the clock critical care nurses and mechanical ventilation.

Don't mind Az and his ignorance of the real medical world; he's evidently still in the process of fine-tuning his "christian motivations."

From: Quinn @work
28-Dec-21
AZ if you're going to be troll at least bring something credible to the table. You consistently spew misinformation on here.

Why don't you go back to getting as many viruses as you can and continue to build your immunity to protect you from Covid and get off Bowsite. Unfortunately I've been to a couple friend's funerals that had the same attitude and disregard you have.

From: 70lbDraw
28-Dec-21

From: 70lbDraw
28-Dec-21

From: Grey Ghost
29-Dec-21
So long, AZ. Can't say you will be missed. Say hello to Shawn and Stonedgirl for me, if you happen to see them. ;-)

Matt

From: 70lbdraw
29-Dec-21
"Why don't you go back to getting as many viruses as you can and continue to build your immunity to protect you from Covid and get off Bowsite."

The only thing you've posted on this thread and the only contribution you've added is to cancel someone you dont agree with?!

In all my time on Bowsite I've never seen so many calls to shut down, or ban other members because someone doesn't agree with them. Not to mention certain people telling others to STFU because they think they know what they're talking about. If ya dont like it, dont click on it. Take your censorship and claims of misinformation and stuff it! I guess the word 'debate' is no longer part of our language. We may as well go back to religious themed threads. Nobody's mind was changed in any of those either.

I'd be willing to bet that out of all the posts in this thread, Mike in CT is likely the ONLY guy here with any credible input. Lol!

29-Dec-21
Mike is the most credible, but other highly trained medical people have weighed in.

Maybe a few here want some to just go away, but most appear not to be debating the science, but rather debating how to debate.

At least in my HS, we would not have been allowed to use questionable sources for support of our position. That would have been ridiculed as a juvenile approach and one’s credibility would have been irretrievably damaged.

Here on BS it is glorified, and by the same people who place emotionalism above science.

I better add, IMHO of course, so as not to offend the folks who do not find it offensive to regurgitate the same garbage that has been disproven.

From: stealthycat
29-Dec-21
"I don't know you but I do know when I see an uninformed opinion posted that only showcases a fundamental lack of understanding"

brilliantly worded - really nice man, truly

with that one sentence you basically say I am incapable of basic understanding and have zero information to support how I view things and also implying you are far superior - really well worded, I'm going to have to remember how you played that.

maybe you're right, maybe I'm just an ignorant hillbilly from Arkansas who doesn't know much about anything ... but way too often people who think they know much more than everyone else really don't at all

I support people getting as many shots as they want - I'd ask they support others who don't. The bullying, threats, coercion, manipulation and shaming .... all of that isn't justified it just isn't

29-Dec-21
Stealthy,

Maybe I woke up on the wrong side of the bed today…

But you seem to be playing victim…the dumbass hillbilly who is being vilified for their choice. I guess I’m the dumb one because the folks I see stating the strongest support about the vaccines working, have also said it is your choice, including me.

What I see more of is a group who embraces pseudo-science and coconut salesmen getting angry because everyone else doesn’t embrace their mostly discredited nonsense.

From: Stix
29-Dec-21
I really like spike78's contribution the best. No skewing of the facts. Thank you.:

"In the grand scheme of things it really doesn’t matter. If you a severely ill and you take Ivermectin and vitamins in the hopes that it makes you better what’s the problem?"

As Americans, we have the choice to take whichever path we want. Remember those freedoms also extend to private businesses requiring their employees to be vaccinated. Same with a private store or other private venue. But the fed, state or local governments cannot mandate the vaccination to any individual or private entity. The Supreme Court has spoken on those issues.

And yes, if I was hospitalized with covid and a doctor recommended Ivermectin as an effective treatment, I would take it. That's the problem. Ivermectin has not been approved as a treatment, anywhere that I am aware of. Not even for compassionate use.

I'll let the real medical professionals guide my treatment, not the fake ones, (as seen on the internet).

From: timex
29-Dec-21
Not debating whatsoever but here's my story. I work for a small trash removal company 25 employees. March - April 2020. 23 of the 25 got sick 2 ended up in the hospital with pneumonia. Iv never had any sickness congest & hurt my lungs like that did. This was before covid was believed to be in the states but I believe covid is what we had. A few months ago 4 got covid the 2 of the 4 that were unvacinated ended up hospitalized & 1 died. 2 weeks ago I got covid it has really hurt me. I've coughed so much I've pulled the muscles in my chest. I have self isolated but have kept hunting splitting fire wood & refuse to stop. I'm unvacinated & intend to stay unvacinated. I have not burdened anyone except perhaps myself. Perhaps im wrong but I don't trust the many covid vaccines & boosters.

From: Mike in CT
29-Dec-21
"with that one sentence you basically say I am incapable of basic understanding and have zero information to support how I view things and also implying you are far superior - really well worded, I'm going to have to remember how you played that."

Oh please, spare me the passive aggressive nonsense! That isn't what I said at all; I was referring to the subject being discussed and you've displayed a lack of basic understanding in multiple posts. By the way, you may notice many here have done more than weigh in with opinions, however well-informed they might be; they've posted links to sources that substantiate what they've offered.

An example of your lack of understanding was your questioning data on the vaccines effectiveness in the >65 year old demographic; I've posted a source showing it has been very effective and I notice you've still not acknowledged that.

You post a statistic on infection rates in the NBA as proof the vaccines aren't working and again, your lack of understanding is apparent; infection does not equal disease, certainly not in that age demographic as mountains of statistical evidence attests to.

Pointing out someone is presenting a flawed argument doesn't rise to the level of condescension; that reaction simply points to being a bit too thin-skinned and your last post and the pity party nonsense only confirms that impression.

Maybe at times I can be a bit short; perhaps that comes as a result of seeing up close and personal the impact of this pandemic for nearly 2 years and continuing to see needless severe illnesses and deaths, at least in part because of a sea of misinformation that some seem more enamored of echoing and amplifying than testing to see how much of it is real and how much should be called out.

"The bullying, threats, coercion, manipulation and shaming .... all of that isn't justified it just isn't."

Absolutely correct; from day 1 as many following this thread can attest I have been against a mandate for vaccination. I've posted quite a number of times that this should always be a personal choice made by the individual with full possession of all the facts they can gather and with input from a trusted physician.

From: Quinn @work
29-Dec-21
"The only thing you've posted on this thread and the only contribution you've added is to cancel someone you dont agree with?!"

70lbdraw- I'm assuming you don't frequent the CO forum where we have AZ spewing garbage and misinformation about what's best for the residents of CO? But he's an expert on CO elk hunting in case you ever need some advice.

Now I've posted 2 things on this thread.

From: azelkhntr
29-Dec-21
FYI. 46% of all the funding the FDA receives come from the very corp's it polices. They aren't keenly interested in biting the hands that feed them. Goes a long way into explaining why this fiasco continues. Brandon has publicly admitted that there is no Federal Govt cure to beat the rona. IE he flew to high and has had his wings burned off. That was his main campaign promise too. 'I'm going to beat the virus" he crowed proudly. The CDC has withdrawn the use of the PCR tests because; their words; it cant differentiate between the rona, flu or the common cold virus. Its all over. The emperor has no clothes. Oh, and Quinny I have never ever even remotely hinted at being an expert on anything elk in CO. I do however have opinions about the management of the seasons there as its a wide open State to NR's for the opportunity to hunt there. If that's an issue for you then that's yours alone. PS. I would like to thank everyone of you who have come to my defense in this recent banishment at the behest of an interested party. I am aware that my approach may put some off and of course people don't like to be challenged sometimes. But it must be done if the truth will out. This is a life and death issue facing the entire world and no topic is presently more important to it. Vaccines are meant to cure and eradicate. These experimental concoctions do neither. Thus they aren't vaccines at all but mere therapuetics, possibly. I know of no way to honestly make the claim that they are "lessening the severity" of the rona to be proven. What is known is that your chances of dying from it are still at 0.067% worldwide. Pandemic? Not by any stretch of the imagination. The only way to bring this insanity to an end is to stop being tested for it.

From: txhunter58
29-Dec-21
Deleted because I made a mistake. I was wrong about what happened. Must have been a computer glitch

From: stealthycat
29-Dec-21
Habitat for Wildlife - I've got thick skin but I've been around forums long enough, and debated covid across many forums long enough, to know when people are talking down to others.

when someone tells you that you're simply misinformed and don't have the fundamental ability to see what they see ..... yeah, I know what that means. I am a victim in a way, I was forced to take a shot I didn't want, a shot that made me very sick for 72 hours, a shot that someone decided I needed even though my immune system has worked so well that for 18 months in the worst pandemic of our lifetime I managed to be out and about and around everyone including covid positive people and never got sick. Huh ... imagine that? for what we were told was exceptionally contagious and fast moving still 280 million American's have not gotten covid - but someone out there way way smarter than me thinks I need a shot

Mike in CT - I'm responding to how your words read - maybe you didn't mean them to read like that I dunno.

I know this - my age, health, history of being sick, condition .... I am 99.9% not going to get covid bad. I don't need the shot, don't want it, was forced to get it because of Biden mandates and didn't want it. I can feel a bit pissed about that, yes

From: Matt
29-Dec-21
"I'm also curious if these pro vaxers were as pro vax when Trump was in charge or if they took a sharp 180 like most of the leftist once they took charge"

These sorts of questions both intrigue and worry me. I guess there are two camps: people who can separate the science from the politics and those who can't. From my perspective, the party affiliation of the sitting president should have nothing - 0% - to do with an individual's personal healthcare decisions as it has no bearing whatsoever on the effectiveness or safety of the COVID vaccines. My process was to read as much as possible about the effectiveness of the vaccines and their side effects and make an informed decision with consideration for my own personal health and to some degree those around me.

I simply cannot wrap my brain around that one would take politics into account when making the personal healthcare decision, but reading this thread it appears that is the primary basis on which some make such decisions. That is baffling.

29-Dec-21
What's just as baffling is people insisting on making health care choices for others based in part on politics. It goes both ways.

From: spike78
29-Dec-21
I have not gotten the vaccine and my reason is 0% politics and has to do with not trusting chemicals in my body. I naturally have anxiety and probably have 100 anxiety meds in the drawer but don’t take them cuz they make me feel worse then the anxiety does. I have semi high blood sugar and was prescribed Metformin same thing sitting in my drawer made me feel like crap so I watched what I ate. I have no reason to believe it may be a mistake for me to get the vaccine due to adverse reactions and I guess I’m willing to just go natural through all this. That’s my stance you all do you.

From: bigeasygator
29-Dec-21
azelkhuntr chimes in to prove his ignorance once again. A few highlights:

The CDC has withdrawn the use of the PCR tests because; their words; it cant differentiate between the rona, flu or the common cold virus.

This is a gross misrepresentation of the CDC recommendation. Of course the original PCR tests could not distinguish between COVID, the flu, the cold, etc because they were only designed to test for COVID. It didn’t mean they weren’t accurate for COVID. The CDC now recommends different PCR tests that can test for more than one illness.

Vaccines are meant to cure and eradicate. These experimental concoctions do neither. Thus they aren't vaccines at all but mere therapuetics, possibly.

Vaccines are meant to trigger an immune response. That is precisely what these new vaccines - and they are vaccines - do.

I know of no way to honestly make the claim that they are "lessening the severity" of the rona to be proven.

This has been proven through multiple clinical trials and through the ongoing collection of case data. One needs only look at the current hospitalizations and what group (hint, it’s still overwhelmingly the unvaccinated even though the majority of this country is vaccinated) make up the bulk of these cases.

The only way to bring this insanity to an end is to stop being tested for it.

What other problems in this country can we solve by simply turning a blind eye towards it? Poverty? Immigration? Crime? Who knew that all we had to do was stop looking for these things and they’d go away!

In case you haven’t figured it out, that was sarcasm. Saying all we have to do to stop the pandemic is stop testing for the disease is the height of stupidity.

From: KSflatlander
29-Dec-21

KSflatlander's Link
"FYI. 46% of all the funding the FDA receives come from the very corp's it polices. They aren't keenly interested in biting the hands that feed them. Goes a long way into explaining why this fiasco continues."

This is another straw man argument from the master of misinformation. The FDA has been using user fee payments for 30 years. And now it's totally explains "this fiasco." A "fiasco" created by misinformation and falsehoods you post continuously.

"Brandon has publicly admitted that there is no Federal Govt cure to beat the rona. IE he flew to high and has had his wings burned off. That was his main campaign promise too. 'I'm going to beat the virus" he crowed proudly."

This sums up YOUR politicization of this public health issue. You see...it is you and others like you that politicize a freaking public health issue that takes a collective effort of all Americans (left/right, young/old, healthy/unhealthy, male/female, rich/poor) to minimize and mitigate. If we, majority of Americans, would get the vaccine we could be much further down the road to normalcy. But no no no...I seen this meme on FB created by someone I don't know and it has all the answers.

"The CDC has withdrawn the use of the PCR tests because; their words; it cant differentiate between the rona, flu or the common cold virus. Its all over."

Again, this is complete social media meme hogwash. The CDC withdrew the PCR test as there are many on the market. Please post any credible source that has a quote from the CDC that their PCR test could not distinguish between Covid and the flu. Better yet post a peer-reviewed study that backs up your claim. I dare you. My source is linked.

"The emperor has no clothes."

Do you even have a clue as to what this idiom even means.

"PS. I would like to thank everyone of you who have come to my defense in this recent banishment at the behest of an interested party."

Spoken like a true mindless follower. To scared to stand alone. Mr. lemming meet Mr. lemming...

"I am aware that my approach may put some off and of course people don't like to be challenged sometimes. But it must be done if the truth will out."

You have yet to challenge one rebuttal to your misinformation BS. A straw man reply is not a challenge. It is a deflection. But you are right, the truth will win the day regardless of you doing everything counter to it.

"This is a life and death issue facing the entire world and no topic is presently more important to it."

Oh, the hyperbole. No doubt life will go on for most of us but not all.

"Vaccines are meant to cure and eradicate. These experimental concoctions do neither."

Mike in CT has posted many credible links that show the vaccines do in fact reduce hospitalizations and death. That is an undeniable fact. No matter what you post or spew will never change that.

"Thus they aren't vaccines at all but mere therapuetics, possibly."

Vaccine- a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.

Just more of your misinformation BS.

"I know of no way to honestly make the claim that they are "lessening the severity" of the rona to be proven."

This is where you really show your lack of knowledge regarding math and science. This is easily proven through the scientific method. You know the method that got us to space, developed modern medicine, etc.. Ever heard of a "control group."

"What is known is that your chances of dying from it are still at 0.067% worldwide. Pandemic?"

This is truly your MO. Just repeat the same old misinformation crap.

"Not by any stretch of the imagination."

A good imagination is about all you got. And boy do you stretch it. Ever wonder why people get quiet when you walk in a room?

"The only way to bring this insanity to an end is to stop being tested for it."

The epidemy of stupidity and who you are. Let's just ignore it and it will go away. I can't believe a functional adult thinks this is a viable option. On a virus that kills 1.6% of the people who get it. That about sums you up.

There is a big difference between be skeptical and debating opinions and pushing misinformation. One works on the foundation of established facts and the other thinks the world is flat because they have seen how flat it really is from the beach.

From: 'Ike'
29-Dec-21
These dumbass topics never die, kind of like Covid...As someone said the other day during a College Football game, 'they'll be naming new strains like Hurricane's here soon!"

From: azelkhntr
29-Dec-21
Our old friend H5N1 is back with a vengeance. Millions of fowl are being actively slaughtered right now in Eastern Europe. This outbreak is occurring in the major Eurasian bird migration corridor to Africa. Coincidence? I don't believe in those any longer. No reports of it jumping to a human host; yet. If I had a weakened IS due to the jabs I'd be very concerned.

From: KSflatlander
29-Dec-21
How about a weakened mind...

From: azelkhntr
29-Dec-21
Now Politics is a subject I just happen to know a great deal about. Those who are ignorant of Politics or don't understand its function(s) and form(s) are always the first to call for the end of the discussions or arguments. Always. If I am invited to a gathering or a party with people whom I don't know I never join in the discussions concerning politics. I listen and learn. What I learn is who the dullards are and who the brights are. I then will confine my interactions to those who have some understanding, curiosity, and common sense. And they are rare today. Understanding Politics is to understand the world and it involves everything whether you recognize that or not. If you're interested pm me and I'll answer your Q's. Now back to the rona.

From: Grey Ghost
29-Dec-21
Oh boy, I can’t wait to PM az, so he can answer my questions about politics. That should be a hoot.

Matt

From: 70lbDraw
29-Dec-21
“If we, majority of Americans, would get the vaccine we could be much further down the road to normalcy."

Lol! They said the same thing about global warming. Only America can stop the world from ending!!!

That rates right up there with; “Talk to your doctor and make an informed decision for yourself.”

Bulls**t! They’ve been pushing that misinformation for 2 years now as well!

From: Mike in CT
29-Dec-21

Mike in CT's Link
"If I had a weakened IS due to the jabs I'd be very concerned."

If you had the burning desire for truth you like to claim here you'd never have posted that as it's demonstrably false.

But hey, at least you've been consistent (consistently wrong).

The vaccines do not weaken the immune system and there have been multiple studies showing a robust stimulation of cell-mediated immunity (CMI). Other studies have also shown benefits to persons who have been infected and recovered as well.

Here's a tidbit for your edification from the link "These findings demonstrate multicomponent immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccination, with memory B and T cell responses remaining durable even as antibodies decline."

From: Matt
29-Dec-21
"How about a weakened mind..."

"Now Politics is a subject I just happen to know a great deal about. "

Reading these comments back-to-back made me laugh a little.

From: spike78
29-Dec-21
My wife’s friend called her and said his 86 year old dad was brought to the ER in an ambulance because his right leg went numb and he couldn’t walk. She said the guy never leaves the house and had no covid symptoms but yet surprise he tested positive for Covid at the hospital and is now being moved to the Covid ward. So now he is another statistic of a person in the ER with Covid. Well nice knowing him after he actually catches it. A numb leg kinda sounds like maybe a blood clot hmm vaccine who knows?

From: timex
29-Dec-21
I'm not sure but I believe the argument has become whome is the better arguer.......

From: KSflatlander
29-Dec-21
I was thinking more fact vs fiction

From: ohiohunter
29-Dec-21
Spike, all too common... yet those who push the vax will call it anecdotal. Since we have all kinds of local fact checkers in the room... what were the leading causes of death for 2020 and 2021?

From: KSflatlander
29-Dec-21
That’s because it is anecdotal.

From: Matt
29-Dec-21

Matt's Link
Never mind that blood clots are a known symptom of COViD and research suggests are 8-10x more common from the disease than from the vaccines.

But it must be the vaccine….

From: Matt-6
29-Dec-21

Matt-6's Link

29-Dec-21
Matt and Ryan,

This disease and all of its cost will not be recognized for some time I believe. I think the same with regards to how we are dealing with the disease. Glad to see the CDC revising stay at home number of days.

I know this is anecdotal, but the counselors at my CC have been overwhelmed the last year by students having emotional issues caused at least in part by what is going on around them. I do agree with many that society has created a culture of fear that is spilling over into numerous areas we have only begun to realize. Our counselors are exhausted, we have teachers who will only teach on-line for fear of the virus.

The fear is only compounded by misinformation, and I do believe some comes from both sides. Not Mike though!

I believe Mike is not a big fan of the masks, and evidence suggests they help minimally in some studies, more in others. In terms of relationships, they have been disastrous and part of the fear factor we are witness to every single day. The loss of human life is always saddening, but it MUST be weighed against all future destructive spillovers society will be forced to deal with. Some of these spillovers will cause a loss of life most likely and should be taken into account.

Robin and I are vaxed, and boosted. But we don't trust that to be enough so we do take extra vitamins (maybe it is feel good and just washing thru but we try.) and other precautions. We just came back from eating out, part of our way to try and help normalize life to reduce the pressures that are significant now. We see some wearing masks and others not. We live in a polite area of the country, and we have not witnessed any animosities towards others behaving differently, but that does exist.

Many have said our country is broke beyond repair and that a national crisis like 9-11 would be the only thing that could bring us together. This is a national crisis, and we are moving further apart. It's not a crisis by disease, it is a crisis in our inability and unwillingness to seek common ground.

Right now we really need a leader capable of helping us find common ground, that ground being that all of us want to see the suffering end and get back to some sense of normalcy. Man, that certainly isn't Joe. Boy, I would love to see another Ronald Reagan. Yes, he might not be as conservative as Trump by whatever yardstick conservatives measure it with, but man could we use another like him now. I would settle for a little less conservative than Trump for a person who could help us let go of the hate!

From: Grey Ghost
29-Dec-21
Perhaps I'm off base, but I don't want our elected officials to "lead" us anywhere. I expect them to take us where we want to go, like a taxi driver who I pay for his services.

Matt

29-Dec-21
Perhaps you are.

From: Matt
29-Dec-21
"Perhaps I'm off base, but I don't want our elected officials to "lead" us anywhere. I expect them to take us where we want to go, like a taxi driver who I pay for his services."

Who exactly should our politicians be listening to for direction, the shelter in place/vaccine mandate crowd or the no mask, no restrictions crowd?

A good portion of our populace (on both sides politically) has demonstrated they have no idea how to practically address COVID and IMO direction from elected officials (informed by appointed medical professionals) to be the arbiters of how to proceed has been valuable. As much as I loathe politicians in general my sense is they have kept us out of the ditch we would be in if either side was left to its own devices in terms of driving policy.

29-Dec-21
I have no expectation or faith that the Government will eradicate Covid or be the source for a cure.

The best thing they have done was getting out of the way to fast track vaccines. Shutting down the economy and normal life was a mistake in my view.

29-Dec-21
"what were the leading causes of death for 2020 and 2021?"

in 2020 it was heart disease, cancer, and covid19 in that order. 2021 will probably be the same.

From: Grey Ghost
29-Dec-21
"Who exactly should our politicians be listening to for direction, the shelter in place/vaccine mandate crowd or the no mask, no restrictions crowd?"

I'm glad you asked. IMO, we don't elect political representatives to make medical decisions on our behalf. That's not what we hire and pay them to do.

Matt

30-Dec-21
Perhaps our definition of leadership differs Matt. I am not asking or looking for someone to tell me what to do, rather a person who thru their words and actions can inspire us to reach higher.

In my lifetime, I still believe RR was the only president who accomplished this. We believed our system and way of life was inherently good, and would win out over all others. He convinced us of this. Think of Carter’s ‘malaise speech’ and how RR rejected those words and had us see a bright light on a hill. He didn’t dictate, he inspired because we knew he truly believed what he said. He had us looking up at endless possibilities, and his inspiration drove this economy all of the way through the Clinton years.

Biden and the Dems don’t believe we are better, but we are and we need someone with the courage and conviction to say it again.

From: Grey Ghost
30-Dec-21
Our elected representatives were never intended to be “leaders”. They represent us.

From: Matt
30-Dec-21
''I'm glad you asked. IMO, we don't elect political representatives to make medical decisions on our behalf. That's not what we hire and pay them to do."

As I stated in my post (and you apparently glossed over), we elect political officials in part to identify and appoint medical professionals to advise and help inform policy decisions.

One only has to look at this thread as to why politicians should not look to their constituents to formulate policy as you suggest they should.

30-Dec-21
Hogwash Matt.

On 9-11 who did this nation turn to. It wasn’t you or me.

From: Rocky D
30-Dec-21
“ Biden and the Dems don’t believe we are better, but we are and we need someone with the courage and conviction to say it again”

HfW, really?

From: Grey Ghost
30-Dec-21
Frank,

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. We obviously have different expectations from our elected officials. I don't view them as leaders for the citizens to follow. I view them as servants to the citizens who put them there and pay their salaries. They represent us, they don't lead us.

I need to get packed up and head to the mountains. I'll check back in later this evening.

Have a great New Years, my friend.

Matt

From: Nemophilist
30-Dec-21
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-VDi8WJtBI&t=16s

From: stealthycat
30-Dec-21
"“If we, majority of Americans, would get the vaccine we could be much further down the road to normalcy.""

When Joe Biden took oath as the President on January 20th, 2021, USA had 396,837 confirmed COVID deaths. As a nation we have

Today the count is 821,000 with 61.9% fully vaccinated and 75% partially (in adults)

If these shots helped - my simply mind would conclude that covid cases/deaths would go DOWN not up

netflix don't look up - I suggest watching it, best movie I've seen in a long time ... best scene was when Streep said (when admitting they'd finally address the comet) they'd immediately ask for a massive spending plan in addition ......... wasn't about the comet, it was about spending, money, control ......... don't be a don't look upper !!

From: Mike in CT
30-Dec-21

Mike in CT's Link
"If these shots helped - my simply mind would conclude that covid cases/deaths would go DOWN not up."

You're looking at this the wrong way; cases simply mean detectable levels of virus in a person; what you want to be looking at are hospitalizations, ICU bed occupancy and mortality.

As I've posted in about 7 or 8 links to states data the numbers overwhelmingly support the effectiveness of the vaccines. State-by-state there is remarkable consistently in hospitalizations and mortality ranging in the 80-95% rate in the unvaccinated population.

It's not even remotely close to arguable that the vaccines have been effective; I'd disagree with you on what type of mind can't grasp this; I wouldn't say simple as much as I'd say closed, unknowingly or knowingly.

I'll add yet another state (MN) to the mix; data mirrors the others I've posted earlier in this thread and again, it's indisputable that the vaccines make a huge difference.

And this covers not only the US but other countries and again, to belabor the point shows exactly what I've said above.

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination

From: KSflatlander
30-Dec-21
Stealthycat- I seen that movie and completely agree that it’s good. The point of the movie was to be a satire of the Trump administration. It’s was pretty obvious.

From: Will
30-Dec-21
MikeInCt - thank you for that. Every time I see people (anywhere - not just here) suggest vaccine effectiveness is poor because of cases I get so frustrated. The data is painfully clear that the massive majority of cases, hospitalizations and deaths are unvaccinated people. I fully agree with former President Trumps comments a week ago or so, describing the vaccines as very effective AND that the people getting most sick and dying are the unvaccinated vs vaccinated. That's accurate based on the evidence.

The data, is brutally clear.

From: Nemophilist
30-Dec-21
https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/12/25/vaers-summary-for-covid-19-vaccines-through-12-17-2021/

From: KSflatlander
30-Dec-21
Key considerations and limitations of VAERS data:

Vaccine providers are encouraged to report any clinically significant health problem following vaccination to VAERS, whether or not they believe the vaccine was the cause.

Reports may include incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information.

The number of reports alone cannot be interpreted or used to reach conclusions about the existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines.

VAERS data is limited to vaccine adverse event reports received between 1990 and the most recent date for which data are available.

VAERS data do not represent all known safety information for a vaccine and should be interpreted in the context of other scientific information.

Nemo- this is the disclaimer from the vary website you posted. What do you not get about these clear disclaimers? Is this just stupidity or political bias or both. It’s not ignorance as these disclaimers have been discussed many times here.

From: Mike in CT
30-Dec-21

Mike in CT's Link
Disney gave us finding Nemo; I'd be tickled if our "Nemo" would find facts and not continue to spread misinformation....

It's clear you haven't a clue about what VAERS is, how it works and how medical review adjudicates reported events and arrives at numbers that are microscopic compared to those you would have anyone not enamored of actual research (and the resultant facts) believe.

Now you have a choice; continue down the path of the ignorant or do some research and maybe actually learn something.

"People may misinterpret VAERS, which is easily searchable, as a catalog of actual side effects, rather than possible or suspected ones. And it's easy to pull data out of context. "For those who are out to scare, there's a lot of material there," says Heidi Larson, director of the Vaccine Confidence Project at the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine."

Excerpt from the link; sounds an awful lot like people who dabble in fear-mongering such as you....

From: Matt
30-Dec-21
It is amazing that the same people who work so hard to draw a distinction between people who died *of* COVID and those who died *with* COVID won't apply the same logic to VAERS data. Why not?

From: bigeasygator
30-Dec-21
As Mike and others have pointed out numerous times, the VAERS data is not a database of deaths caused by the vaccine. It is more akin to an early warning system - by capturing these outcomes, scientists can leverage the data to determine whether there is some sort of emerging issue with the vaccine. As has been pointed out, there is essentially no rigor or follow up with respect to the information that gets entered, and by the very nature of the database, is meant to catch everything even when there has been no determination of causation.

The takeaway from all that is that there has been nothing to raise an alarm related to the data being captured around the COVID viruses. 10,000 deaths are well within the expected mortality rates (in fact, they are far lower than the age adjusted average for the USA). This number is even less alarming when you realize the adjudicated deaths (those where there was actual follow up investigations done) have only attributed a dozen deaths or so to the vaccine.

Let me put that in perspective. We now have roughly a dozen vaccine related deaths out of 506 million doses given. By contrast, we have seen roughly 850,000 deaths out of 55 million COVID cases in this country.

30-Dec-21

Mike Ukrainetz's embedded Photo
Mike Ukrainetz's embedded Photo

From: Mike in CT
30-Dec-21
I'm sorry Mike but what you're citing is another glaring example of a deliberate misrepresentation (by the source, not by you!).

As a greater percentage of any population is vaccinated and the vaccines were designed to prevent serious illness and mortality, not infection simple math dictates that as cases arise the greater number of "cases" (look to my post above for what constitutes a case please) are going to be in the vaccinated population.

The only relevant metrics are serious illness/hospitalizations, ICU bed occupany and mortality. Across the board in the vast number of patients falling into those categories are the unvaccinated population.

This is why it is difficult, if not impossible to find any credible, reputable source stating what "Bright Light News" (and other similar such sources) are stating.

The facts are indisputable; the vaccines have worked and they've worked very well.

From: elkmtngear
30-Dec-21
"The only relevant metrics are serious illness/hospitalizations, ICU bed occupany and mortality"

These are the only metrics we should have been tracking all along (like all other pandemics/ illnesses in History). Not "cases". Focusing on cases, has allowed maximum fear factor to be continuously applied, even as the virus slowly "mutates" it's way toward insignificance.

30-Dec-21
Mike in CT, could you please contact all the Canadian government bureaucrats and politicians because they are shutting Canada down again due to rising cases only. And vaccine passports and mandates are in place to supposedly stop, slow the spread of cases, yet vaxxed and unvaxxed are now spreading and getting it equally.

From: Old Reb
30-Dec-21
I had COVID-19 in November. I'm unvaccinated and only had mild symptoms. My worst symptoms were body fatigue and headache that was at its worst for 3 days. My son also tested positive a few days before I did. He basically experienced the same mild symptoms. He is also unvaccinated. My good friend texted me today and said he tested positive for COVID-19. He said he is experiencing just about every symptom except losing his taste and smell. He has had both shots and the booster. I guess that as long as he doesn't end up in the hospital, in ICU, or dead his vaccination would be considered a success. Right Mike? I'm just reporting what is happening in my personal experiences. I am convinced though that no one has this figured out.

30-Dec-21
I can't blame anyone who believes the vaccines were suppose to greatly reduce cases. That was what they were told.

From: azelkhntr
30-Dec-21

azelkhntr's Link
Meanwhile at The Hague.

From: Matt
30-Dec-21
That looks like an unmitigated load of bull$#!+.

From: peterk1234
30-Dec-21
I got nothing; I just wanted to be post number 500 :)

30-Dec-21
[email protected] - "I can't blame anyone who believes the vaccines were suppose to greatly reduce cases. That was what they were told."

You may not have read what Mike in CT posted but the reality is the opposite of that statement. The only reason people can't believe the vaccines work is that's what they were told. The difference being that the folks that said they don't work either had a political agenda and believed any misinformation they were fed or were ignorant of science.

From: nmarchr
30-Dec-21
So what if you were fully vaccinated, 2 shots, then got Covid and recovered, would you still get the booster? If so, why?

30-Dec-21
Yes, to hopefully prevent from being hospitalized or worse if do do contract COVID again.

Not everyone 's immune system is the same. What doesn't bother one person could kill another. Why would I take any chances of being hospitalized or worse for the sake of getting one more shot?

From: nmarchr
30-Dec-21
So what if you were fully vaccinated, 2 shots, then got Covid and recovered, would you still get the booster? If so, why?

From: Kevin Dill
30-Dec-21
I would consult with 2 medical doctors who know me. I would consult with my wife and our daughter. I likely would get it in order to maximize my immune system response. I’m asplenic.

30-Dec-21
Phil

The vaccines were touted as preventing cases and transmission similar to how vaccines people were familiar with do. The last few months that obviously isn't the case and the narrative has switched to preventing serious illness which was part of the original narrative but certainly not the main focus of what people were touting. Bigger sampling, variants and other factors can all be blamed but it is a fact that people were expecting better and that expectation was based on what they were being told.

I'm not anti-vax but the misinformation is coming from all sides. Some saying the Vax does nothing or it's even a negative and others who said it would be much more effective than it is.

I read everything Mike posts because it's easy to see when someone is coming from a position of higher information and honesty. His take doesn't change what I explained.

30-Dec-21
I didn't think anything anyone said would change your mind. I'm mystified why that is the case but I didn't expect it.

30-Dec-21
I guess we are both mystified. You don't think people are disappointed by the amount of break through cases and at least in part due to what they were told to expect when vaccines were rolled out?

From: Old Reb
30-Dec-21
I agree with you Glunt. I can recall that when Phizer, Moderna, and J&J were applying for emergency use it was the vaccines ability to prevent infection that was being touted. Phizer and Moderna were both in the 95% efficacy range and J& J was lower, somewhere in the 80% range. Whether that was the vaccine's original purpose or not, that is how they sold it to the public. That is what true vaccines are supposed to do, prevent infection. Ex. Rabies, small pox, polio, etc. And yes some of those may need more than one dose or boosters but preventing infection is what those vaccines do. The small pox vaccine was so effective that the disease was eradicated in the United States. My sister was born in 1964 and she has the dime sized scar on her arm from getting the vaccine. I was born in 1966 and I was never given a small pox vaccine nor my younger siblings. It was no longer necessary.

31-Dec-21
“ I guess we are both mystified. You don't think people are disappointed by the amount of break through cases and at least in part due to what they were told to expect when vaccines were rolled out?”

If people were disappointed one likely reason is because of the misinformation they were fed. I worked in healthcare for almost four decades. I expected the vaccine to help keep me alive if I caught Covid. I knew there would be mutations. That’s not uncommon at all.

From: Nemophilist
31-Dec-21
https://www.rwmalonemd.com/

From: Matt
31-Dec-21

Matt's Link
“That is what true vaccines are supposed to do, prevent infection.”

It is really unfortunate there is just so much misinformation being spread on the internet. Vaccines are generally meant to prevent disease, not infection.

One reference to the polio vaccine:

“ What is IPV?

Inactivated polio vaccine (IPV) consists of inactivated (killed) strains of all three poliovirus types. IPV is given by intramuscular injection and must be administered by a trained health worker. IPV produces antibodies in the blood to all three types of poliovirus. In the event of infection, these antibodies prevent the spread of the virus to the central nervous system and protect against paralysis.”

Again, the vaccine prevents against disease and not infection.

31-Dec-21
Mike,

Is this virus more or less resilient than other viruses like polio? Is what we have observed so far, including mutations, give us insight into whether this virus was “man made” versus naturally occurring? If designed by man, does that suggest anything about why this appears a tough nut to crack? Thanks

31-Dec-21
Unfortunately, if you look up Robert Malone you'll see he is not what he claims to be.

From: Mike in CT
31-Dec-21
Matt,

Thanks for bringing up a key distinction; while there are vaccines that do prevent infection (because they promote the development of neutralizing antibodies) other vaccines only promote the development of antibodies that prevent or at least minimize disease.

Frank,

SARS-CoV-2 is most likely a naturally evolved RNA virus that, as have other viruses, made the jump from an animal host to man, likely through an intermediate animal host. As I pointed out early on if you design a bioweapon the last thing you want is for any mutation, let alone dozens of mutations to occur as there is the risk you'll lose the desired characteristics of a bioweapon.

This virus has consistently behaved exactly as a naturally-occurring virus up to its most recent variant which while become more infectious than the parent strain is less virulent.

Like any RNA virus the inherent mutagenicity of SARS-CoV-2 presents difficulty in designing an effective vaccine. This is why companies like Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna went with the mRNA technology, targeting a specific protein in the viruses spike protein; it minimized risks common in older vaccine approaches, improved the delivery of the vaccine and has maintained efficacy against the variants.

The next step needed is to continue to work on safe and effective treatment options.

31-Dec-21

Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo

Ricky The Cabel Guy's Link
"If these shots helped - my simply mind would conclude that covid cases/deaths would go DOWN not up"

the way you are looking at it actually is too simple minded. you have to look at the case and death rates in the vaccinated group and compare those with the same in the unvaccinated group separately. when you do that, it is quite obvious that the vaccines are working very well.

From: Catscratch
31-Dec-21
Mike in CT (or anyone else who knows), could you explain how the tests differentiates between the different forms of covid?

31-Dec-21
"...could you explain how the tests differentiates between the different forms of covid?"

they dont. genome sequencing is required to determine the variant.

https://www.kxan.com/news/omicron-vs-delta-can-you-tell-which-variant-of-covid-you-have/

From: Catscratch
31-Dec-21
Thanks! I wonder what percentage of pcr tests are sent in to labs for further testing? I've always been curious as to how the media knows what variants are currently "sweeping the area" or causing all of this week's hospitalizations.

From: Rut Nut
31-Dec-21
From: Phil Magistro 31-Dec-21

“ I guess we are both mystified. You don't think people are disappointed by the amount of break through cases and at least in part due to what they were told to expect when vaccines were rolled out?” If people were disappointed one likely reason is because of the misinformation they were fed. I worked in healthcare for almost four decades. I expected the vaccine to help keep me alive if I caught Covid. I knew there would be mutations. That’s not uncommon at all.

No Phil, we’re disappointed because we were told very early on that if we got the “vaccine” it would protect us from the virus and would keep us from spreading it. The irony is that now the Omicron is spreading like wildfire on our nursing home unit and all the patients were fully “vaccinated” and boosted. Most of us who work on the unit have turned up POSITIVE and we are also fully “vaccinated”. (And have been wearing masks and face shields for almost 2 years) The same thing is happening in the community....................of the 10-12 new cases I personally know , all of them were “vaccinated” and most had the booster! It is becoming painfully obvious that the early claim of protection and containment was just propaganda to urge mass “vaccination!”

From: stealthycat
31-Dec-21
"It's clear you haven't a clue about what VAERS is, "

"Now you have a choice; continue down the path of the ignorant or do some research and maybe actually learn something."

Mike in CT - at least you weren't just doing that to me - you do it to others too. That makes me feel less picked on

31-Dec-21
“ SARS-CoV-2 is most likely a naturally evolved RNA virus that, as have other viruses, made the jump from an animal host to man, likely through an intermediate animal host...” There’s your misinformation on the internet right there!! It was created in a lab. we were all lied to. Very doubtful it was created as a bio weapon. It’s clear based this was being planned in 2017 and possibly earlier. Fauci “predicted” it!!! The blindness is amazing to me!! The powers that be are light years ahead of you libtards. You think you’re dealing with normal unbiased scientific processes and studies and unbiased medical professionals but every single thing has been politicized. You’re being used and only history will prove it unfortunately.

31-Dec-21

Eagle_eye_Andy's embedded Photo
Eagle_eye_Andy's embedded Photo
“You don’t comply your way out of tyranny. You get what you allow”.

31-Dec-21
Rut Nuts last paragraph sums up perfectly what Fauci at the NIH and the big Pharma execs wanted and dreamed of all along. It’s why they’ve shut down every alternative therapeutic to treat this mess and why literally thousands of good Drs, scientists and media that counter the narrative and ask honest questions get CANCELED defunded or fired. History is repeating itself but no one realizes it. Woodrow Wilson comes to mind.

From: Mike in CT
31-Dec-21
"Mike in CT - at least you weren't just doing that to me - you do it to others too. That makes me feel less picked on."

A critical distinction is that I honestly felt you read into my initial replies to you some intent that wasn't there; I did however respect your position and the last response to your post was an effort to avoid a similar misunderstanding.

My response to Not finding Nemo on the other hand was deliberate; this is a poster who has consistently posted misinformation, often if not exclusively from dubious sources and what he's posted has been shot full of more holes than Sonny Corleone.

It's one thing to make an honest mistake, it's quite another to consciously spread demonstrably false narratives, particularly when they've been pointed out as such with concrete proofs yet they're regurgitated later.

I don't put you in the same camp; not by any stretch of the imagination. I consider your position as one honestly arrived at and if my initial responses made you feel you were being condescended to for that I do apologize.

From: Timbrhuntr
31-Dec-21
Interesting comment where I live from our Hospital chief of staff. I believe he is getting tired of going around trying to give facts to people about the virus vaccines etc. His comment was basically well the thing this variant might do is end the pandemic. It seems to spread much quicker and I believe there will be three outcomes. ! if you are vaccinated you will likely survive the virus with mild symptoms, 2 if you are lucky and get immunity from contracting the virus you will survive and three you won't survive it but either way this variant should speed the end of the pandemic. Now these are not his exact words exactly but the gist of what I heard him say ( I tried to find any info on his comment but it was on our local news station which doesn't have a large viewing audience) . I was kind of surprised when I heard him say this ! But he has never been one to mince words when commenting on the this.

31-Dec-21
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/healthcare/broken-leg-anthony-fauci-child-covid-19-hospitalizations-overblown

Direct quote from your very own expert. Mistake? Or on purpose? And when anyone claims they are overblown cases since day one they get labeled a conspiracy nut and that “you’re not following the data” and that it’s “anecdotal!”

From: Mike in CT
31-Dec-21

Mike in CT's Link
" There’s your misinformation on the internet right there!! It was created in a lab. we were all lied to. Very doubtful it was created as a bio weapon. It’s clear based this was being planned in 2017 and possibly earlier. Fauci “predicted” it!!! The blindness is amazing to me!! The powers that be are light years ahead of you libtards."

No, the misinformation has been and continues to be that this was an engineered virus; there is no shortage of information to attest to this reality (link is but one of several I could post to confirm).

As to what experts "predicted" the emergence of this particular viral pathogen with respect you're viewpoint is naive. Among other good reads I could point you to Laurie Garrett's "The Coming Plague-Newly emerging diseases in a world out of balance" which was originally published in 1994; Ms. Garrett detailed her own experiences and those of infectious disease experts who warned of pandemics to come.

The globalization of travel made it inevitable that humans would penetrate into areas where pathogens existed that we had never encountered and for which we would have no natural immunity. This present one will not be the last either; again, it's simply an inevitably as humans expand areas of contact with novel pathogens, many of which will similarly make the jump from their natural animal reservoirs to humans.

You are correct regarding "blindness"; those who continue to cling to a demonstrably false narrative would meet that metric as would those who continue to argue for the vaccines being ineffective when the hospitalizations and mortality statistics are overwhelmingly skewed towards the unvaccinated population. That's taking "blindness to unheard of heights.

And by the way, please don't assume a political/ideological affiliation because I live (unfortunately) in a liberal state; I couldn't be farther removed from my states political leanings if I moved to Mars.

The attempt to pigeon-hole me speaks far more eloquently to how shaky the ground you're standing on is than mine.

"You think you’re dealing with normal unbiased scientific processes and studies and unbiased medical professionals but every single thing has been politicized. You’re being used and only history will prove it unfortunately."

I've always been a fan of RR's approach; "trust, but verify". I research continuously as as a rule always look for sources that challenge what I think is correct; if I affirm my suspicion, great, if not that's called learning, something I've never been averse to.

As to who's being used I'd advise a little introspection on your part might not be a bad thing.

From: Mike in CT
31-Dec-21
"Direct quote from your very own expert."

I'm not sure who you're directing this towards but I can assure you if you scour every thread on this site you'll not find one where I refer to Dr. Fauci as "my expert." You can find posts where I've criticized him and deservedly so.

"Mistake? Or on purpose?"

Irrelevant in the greater scheme but he and any who knowingly promoted false information should face some form of punishment.

"And when anyone claims they are overblown cases since day one they get labeled a conspiracy nut and that “you’re not following the data” and that it’s “anecdotal!”"

I won't speak for anyone else but I can note seeing other posters who have only rebutted misinformation with facts, most, if not all times with supporting sources for anyone who wants to check to do so.

As to "not following the data" there's ample evidence of that in this very thread; in spite of data I've posted from 8 different states (and believe me I could post the other 42 and paint the same picture) that show the overwhelming numbers of hospitalizations and mortality are in the unvaccinated there are still those insisting the vaccines have been ineffective. When data is plainly presented and denied it's hard to label that as anything but "not following the data."

As to "anecdotal"; when cases are presented as people who were vaccinated and were infected it's a snapshot (and multiple posters posting similarly are only adding a few more snapshots) that is only a fraction of the whole.

When a vaccine lists an efficacy of 95% this means right out of the gate at least 5% of the population will not gain protection. With the US population as just north of 330 million this comes out to approximately 16,500,000 unprotected individuals.

When data from 50 states dwarfs "anecdotal" evidence by several orders of magnitude it's not invalidated by a predictable but statistically insignificant number; it's ludicrous to suggest it should be.

Context is everything but it's often the first thing overlooked anytime anyone has ever pushed a preferred narrative that swims counter to the tide of facts.

From: KSflatlander
31-Dec-21
“There’s your misinformation on the internet right there!! It was created in a lab. we were all lied to. Very doubtful it was created as a bio weapon. It’s clear based this was being planned in 2017 and possibly earlier. Fauci “predicted” it!!! The blindness is amazing to me!!“

If you’re so convinced this was a bio weapon from a lab then please provide proof. Where is your proof?

Mike and others most often provide links to science data and facts. You on the other hand don’t provide any.

And by the way, if people keep responding to you with “conspiracy theory” and “anecdotal” then maybe you should re-examine the sources you use for information. Maybe it’s you and not them. Lastly, meaningless memes do nothing to help your standing.

From: Tilzbow
31-Dec-21
Mike in CT - I’ve read that South Africa is now seeing a decline in cases nearly as dramatic as the increases after Omicron first started. Can you comment on that and potential future similarities here and elsewhere?

From: Mike in CT
31-Dec-21
Scott,

A couple of key points; as this virus continues it's natural progression towards a more transmissible, less virulent form we'll likely see an increase in cases initially in the US and hopefully mirror the decline in hospitalizations and mortality seen in SA.

We need to be cautiously optimistic though as SA has a population much younger on average than the US; other variants and the original strain all exerted their greatest impact in the older demographic (and of course the immunocompromised or those with certain co-morbidities).

We may, as some epidemiologists and infectious disease doctors are suggesting be seeing a move towards COVID becoming endemic, much like other commonly circulated respiratory viruses.

We'll have a much clearer picture by spring, if not sooner.

31-Dec-21
Rut -

"No Phil, we’re disappointed because we were told very early on that if we got the “vaccine” it would protect us from the virus and would keep us from spreading it. The irony is that now the Omicron is spreading like wildfire on our nursing home unit and all the patients were fully “vaccinated” and boosted. Most of us who work on the unit have turned up POSITIVE and we are also fully “vaccinated”. (And have been wearing masks and face shields for almost 2 years) The same thing is happening in the community....................of the 10-12 new cases I personally know , all of them were “vaccinated” and most had the booster! It is becoming painfully obvious that the early claim of protection and containment was just propaganda to urge mass “vaccination!” .

A lot of this perception depends on where folks get their information. It's proven that if you get vaccinated it will protect you. That isn't even questionable. Mike in CT has pointed that out numerous times here with references. Omicron is spreading but that isn't unexpected. Fortunately it seems to be less severe but it's still putting a big hurt on healthcare workers and hospitals. There may be more variants that impact us or this may slowly just become an endemic disease that we learn to live with - like the present strains of flu we face annually.

From: Rut Nut
31-Dec-21
You’re missing my point, Phil..................they told us the “vaccine” would stop the spread. And they are STILL pushing that narrative and trying to shame and bully folks into getting the “vaccine” and boosters when it is blatantly obvious that is not the case! This new variant is spreading 2-3 times faster than any of the others and most of the people getting it are vaxed AND boosted! I am seeing this unfold before my eyes on our nursing home unit!

From: Matt
31-Dec-21
“ Very interesting data coming from S Africa currently. Most is the opposite of what Dr Fauci is saying in last week with regard to mandates and closures and boosters. Their federal site has some new data i would lean into if i were the US medical authority.”

I personally am very encouraged by what the South African health authorities are sharing, but at the same time IMO we need to take that with a grain of salt. Americans on average are much older and (sadly) in poorer health than the average South African, so Omicron has the potential to be more impactful here.

I posted this on the Bowsite before (with citations) so it is referenceable, but if memory serves only ~3% of South Africans are over the age of 65. At that time 75-76% of Americans who have died of COVID were 65+.

31-Dec-21
Rut, I didn’t miss your point. Nobody ever said the vaccine will stop anything. As Mike mentioned above the vaccine was never presented as 100% effective. But there is unquestionable data that the vaccine does help prevent people from getting the disease and it helps prevent those that are vaccinated and get the disease from being hospitalized or dying. That can be misreported but cannot be disputed.

From: azelkhntr
31-Dec-21
From: Mike in CT31-Dec-21Private Reply

We may, as some epidemiologists and infectious disease doctors are suggesting be seeing a move towards COVID becoming endemic, much like other commonly circulated respiratory viruses.

Good. Thats the end goal. Endemic = Herd immunity. Over and done. It would have happened much sooner if the money grubbing Pharmaniacs had just let this run its natural course. Whatever the natural course is for a manmade bio-weapon.

From: Matt
31-Dec-21
“ You’re missing my point, Phil..................they told us the “vaccine” would stop the spread. And they are STILL pushing that narrative and trying to shame and bully folks into getting the “vaccine” and boosters when it is blatantly obvious that is not the case!”

Who is they and where are you seeing this?

Regardless, I do not think that I correct. Initially the vaccines were developed to stop disease (see link below from 12/20), which they continue to do effectively. It is important to understand the difference between being infected by the virus (testing positive) and presenting with the disease (COVID-19), and perhaps that is where the disconnect lies.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2034577

If one goes back with the Google machine to early 2021 one can see that AFTER The vaccines began to be deployed there were studies to determine whether they stopped the spread of COVID, indicating that was not the initial purpose of the vaccines. Note the article speaks in terms of disease and not transmission.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-11/pfizer-biontech-covid-vaccine-blocks-most-spread-in-israel-study

Fauci (who I presume is “they”) is on record as far back as August 2021 stating that the vaccines do not stop transmission: “ Fauci added that, with the delta variant, those who are vaccinated can transmit the virus, which is why the mask recommendations have changed, because people can pass it to someone else, even if they feel OK.” In the article, masking was referenced as the strategy to slow the spread, not vaccination.

https://wsvn.com/news/local/florida/fauci-recommends-floridians-wear-masks-get-vaccinated-to-help-slow-spread-of-delta-variant/amp/

While the virus has mutated and the vaccines have become less effective at preventing transmission, they still offer significant protection against disease. I believe this is why Mike keeps hammering home the point that this has predominantly become a pandemic of the unvaccinated.

More recent headlines I see from Fauci reference vaccination/boosting to reduce hospitalizations - which has been a consistent theme since late 2021.

From: LINK
31-Dec-21
It still doesn’t matter in my neighborhood. People that are vaccinated are getting it just the same and the unvaccinated are no more symptomatic than the vaccinated. I know no one that’s been hospitalized in the last year or even moderately sick for that matter. Time to move on with our lives.

From: Rut Nut
31-Dec-21
From: Phil Magistro 31-Dec-21

Rut, I didn’t miss your point. Nobody ever said the vaccine will stop anything.

That is simply NOT true! Public health officials and the leadership of the VA Hospital where I work CONTINUE to push the “vaccine” and boosters claiming it will “curb the spread“ even though what we are seeing firsthand totally contradicts that narrative.

We had only 2 cases of COVID on our nursing home unit up until last week. On 12/21 we had 4 patients test positive. I tested positive on 12/23. Last I heard over half of our 30 bed unit has it now and ALL were vaccinated and boosted! I tested positive as have most of the staff that work up there and we have all been wearing masks and face shields for almost 2 years AND are vaccinated. Right now it is spreading thru our VA and our Occupational Health dept is overwhelmed. It is spreading despite the fact that over 90% of our employees are vaccinated.....................so it is painfully clear that all the vaccines and boosters are not doing a thing to prevent the spread of this Omicron variant!

Why do you think the CDC just came out with new guidance for isolation after exposure and are saying the PCR tests should NOT be used as a criteria for return to work.....................you think maybe they know everyone will get this new variant, whether you were vaccinated or not?! Hmmmmmmmmm

From: TD
31-Dec-21
I understand the vax likely helps a good many people, primarily those with co-morbidities. Of which this country has a great many of. So again, talk with your doc. Come up with a plan. Your plan. And live, or die, with it. But it's pretty clear now..... the unvaxed are at some greater risk of a serious case, even dying. But that's roughly about it. They have put no guns to the head of those choosing to get vaxed, nor threatened them. But human nature wants someone to be the bogeyman, someone ELSE to be responsible instead of a virus that doesn't care if it gets blamed or not. (Although most fingers do point to a Chinese lab and at least partially funded by Fauci's crew. Was called misinformation and conspiracy theory prior to the facts getting out. Huh. Funny how that works.... and without even so much as a "sorry, my bad"....)

Again.... "the vaccine will lower your chances of dying of covid" is 100% NOT how this was sold. I have no idea if this was meant all along as mitigating death and not so much transmission by those developing it, all I know is how it was pushed down people's throats. "Get vaxed so we can wipe out covid!" "if you don't take the shot you are killing other people!" Yeah, not so much..... The biggest mistake this government and MUCH if not most of the health care industry made was lying to the public. Not being honest and forthright. Choosing to use fear and panic over facts and reality. You lose all credibility.... I won't listen to anything more you have to say, don't trust you. But many still are lying. And many won't even allow a conversation about it. Treatments.... natural immunity.... shut up....

I linked Biden above selling it that way. Fauci has sold it the same and I had links to clips of his statements..... now gone when I wanted to pull them up. "Video not found" "Page not found". That tells me a bunch right there. These people pushed a false narrative to justify their actions. Fauci admits he lied right out of the gate "for your own good". National mandates and shutdowns. Or else. Even talks of "covid camps" like set up in Australia. WRT it being "political" I'd show some clips of both House Plant AND Heels Up declaring they would not take the vaccine if it were "Trump's" vaccine. Well guess what.... it's the same one they are threatening people with their work and livelihood if they DON'T take it. I fear the government and their lying azzes far more than this virus. Yes, consult with your doctor. But if I had a doctor that lied to me like these people..... we'd be having an not so private talk outside his office.

I'm not debating vax good or vax bad. Honestly.... do what you (and your doctor) feel is best for you. Not hurting my feelings one way or the other because.... I. Don't. Care. What I care about is a GOVERNMENT that openly and knowingly LIES to its citizens, lies to me. I have my own theories... but for what or who's ends are debatable. Taking rights and freedoms from it's citizens.... under the guise of "its all for your own good" and "you aren't smart enough to make your own decisions". That is not debatable. that crap has to end. Now. THEY are not our rulers. THEY work for us. Not the other way around. THEY have forgotten this. And are quickly being reminded of that, some desperately trying to walk it all back as they see the backlash. The United States is not just another country like everywhere else. It's individual citizens have their own sovereign rights and freedoms, first and only country on the planet with such. And mechanisms to take the country back from Elitists Autocrats with visions of personal glory and grandeur. They have pushed too hard, too far.

WRT death.... was just looking back over the last two years and counted 8 close friends and family that died, seems a lot to me but then I'm getting old(er) too. Oldest was 70, most in their 50s. None from covid. Two from cancer, one diabetic, one emphysema and the others from heart disease. I do have one person I know who's MIL recently passed away from covid. Fully vaxed, boosters and all.... 82. Only person I "know" who died of covid. Just personal experience and means nothing scientifically. But that's the view from where I'm sitting. People die. Often a bit sooner when they are in poor health.

So yeah, talk with your doctor. I understand not taking the shots. I hate to put any medication in my body, I don't even take aspirin for a headache. Nor antibiotics as IMO they get much less effective the more people take them, and when I need them at some point I want them to kick azz. The body and mind needs to be constantly challenged to stay strong.... challenged in many many ways from every direction. Vaccines are not the only way to build an immune system, a strong system. The day you ease up is the day you start sliding down that gulch on your butt.....from all I've seen when you hit the bottom it's much easier to throw dirt over ya.

31-Dec-21
LOL! Exactly the answers I thought I’d get. Proving my point! Good luck!!

31-Dec-21
The term vaccine is likely where the misconception started. And, likely why it continues. And, the 5000 hours the media spent in early 2021 praising the vaccine since Trump left office. Sleepy Joe has spread the misinformation to help his cause as well. The media willingly spread the same misinformation for him. My guess is, there are just as many who are vaxed, that were misled as there are those refusing to get the shot.

The vaccine works. It works rather well and as intended. I don’t think anyone can deny that. It truly isn’t about that for most people in my opinion.

It’s the unknown long term potential, it’s the reality that says regardless of age the average human is going to beat it by a large margin. And, it’s the idea that government can crush small business, while allowing corporate exponentially new opportunity to grow bigger at the same time, all under the disguise of fighting this virus. Funny how money talks.

Freedom, it’s in danger of losing to emotionally driven policy. All to please the party system that dominates this republics democracy. And, we are the ones responsible because we allow it.

The guarantee of a choice has never been more important. For goodness sakes, look at the above posts. We have hospital directors talking like the media. If you get it and survive. Do what? Who in that position would be so biased and dumb to talk like that. The science says you are all but guaranteed to beat it without the vax. And, there is wonderment in where misconceptions are coming from?

It’s one thing to argue masks, social guidelines, where the virus originated, etc…. There is reason enough for whatever side you choose. But. There is no denying politics has skewed the reality of this virus and it’s treatments, to the point that most everyone has been misled. By absolute intent.

Quit arguing what you know is false. Quit trying to defend your choice. It was yours to make. Own it. And, don’t justify it. No one is due that. And, as long as it stays that way, everything is going to be just fine.

31-Dec-21
Rut, the vaccine has proven to curb the spread. That is proven. Mike in CT has provided numerous links to document that.

From: scentman
31-Dec-21
What about the southern border? I see no swab lines... swabs sticking into people's brain cavity in car lines is what I see... they load illegals into planes, trains, buses, send them off to who knows where??? Had them poor families sleeping, sneezing, coughing right next to eachother... where is your concern and compassion for their grammas and grampas?

From: spike78
31-Dec-21
Rut it’s all just a master plan. Agenda 2030 is in full swing. Hell the UK is now pushing to eliminate private ownership of cars.

From: Rut Nut
31-Dec-21
Phil- I’m telling you what we are seeing NOW in the community and in our hospitals...............you can deny it and keep your head buried in the sand, but eventually there will be no denying it if you are honest!

Just watch the news...........Omicron is spreading now like no other variant Has so far...................at a time when we are at our highest level of vaccination. Common sense should tell you if the rate of spread is increasing THIS FAST, there is no way it is spreading primarily by UNvaccinated when they are such a small percentage of the population!

OPEN YOUR EYES FOLKS! And use some COMMON SENSE!

From: stealthycat
31-Dec-21
Mike in CT

Here is what I see ...

What % of the USA has died of covid in the USA at my age (52), my health, my BMI, who has a strong immune system like I do (never sick) who exercises, eats well and is very healthy ?

of the millions in the above group, what are my chances of getting covid and dying? 0.001? 0.005 ?

its very small - I'm not going to freak out about it

I know more of my relatives that had the shots get covid and who didn't have the shots and got covid - go figure that one huh?

anyway, I'm with Aaron Rodgers - he's not wrong on his opinion/view the way I see the world

I told my lady today, if a variant comes around that's a 20% kill rate or something, I'll consider another shot of something ... but for 0.01 % or less chance ? no thank you

31-Dec-21
Perry, I understate what you are seeing. And honestly my head is not buried in the sand. Cases in our region are blowing up and many are reinfections of vaccinated people. But the vast majority of hospitalizations are from unvaccinated people.

Here in Reading the paper publishes a report each day from our two hospitals about the number of cases in our county, the number of hospitalizations, the number of folks in ICU, the number of folks on vents, the number of deaths, and more. The number of folks in the ICU and on vents are definitely up and every day those cases are 80% or more unvaccinated people. Some days in the recent two weeks it was 90% unvaccinated people in the ICU.

In spite of the surge in cases we all are seeing the data published in our local paper and all nationally published data shows the vaccine is definitely working and if more folks were vaccinated the number of hospitalizations would be less. Yes cases are up but those that are vaccinated and get COVID are far less likely to go to the hospital with most of them suffering mild symptoms or being asymptomatic. That is what the vaccine provides - minimizing the severity for folks that contract the disease.

Please go back and read what Mike in CT has written here. He's explained this as completely as a person can.

From: DanaC
31-Dec-21

DanaC's Link
https://gov.texas.gov/news/post/governor-abbott-tdem-dshs-request-federally-supported-covid-19-testing-sites-medical-personnel-increased-monoclonal-antibody-allocations

31-Dec-21
Common sense!? How dare you!? The overeducated arrogant data worshipers won’t stand for it!!! They’re too far down the Vax road can’t turn back now. The magic Vax will fix it all!

31-Dec-21
Don’t you guys miss a more simple time, like when press coverage focused on the Russian collusion hoax?

From: Rut Nut
31-Dec-21
Phil- please read what I wrote and STOP trying to CHANGE the subject! We’re talking about curbing the spread- NOT lessening the severity...................it’s obvious to anyone who is paying attention that Omicron is spreading fast despite our best efforts to get folks vaccinated and boosted!

I heard an infectious disease expert last week saying that this is how pandemics end................you get a variant that is 3-4 times more transmissible than anything before, but is much less virulent/deadly. Everybody gets it, hardly anybody dies, we build up anti-bodies for it and then it burns out......................sure sounds like what we are starting to see!

31-Dec-21
Perry, I’m not trying to change the subject. I’m trying to explain what the subject is. But I’ll use Mike’s own words from a few days ago:

"If these shots helped - my simply mind would conclude that covid cases/deaths would go DOWN not up." You're looking at this the wrong way; cases simply mean detectable levels of virus in a person; what you want to be looking at are hospitalizations, ICU bed occupancy and mortality.

As I've posted in about 7 or 8 links to states data the numbers overwhelmingly support the effectiveness of the vaccines. State-by-state there is remarkable consistently in hospitalizations and mortality ranging in the 80-95% rate in the unvaccinated population.

It's not even remotely close to arguable that the vaccines have been effective; I'd disagree with you on what type of mind can't grasp this; I wouldn't say simple as much as I'd say closed, unknowingly or knowingly.

I'll add yet another state (MN) to the mix; data mirrors the others I've posted earlier in this thread and again, it's indisputable that the vaccines make a huge difference.”

I’m done trying to explain this. Hope you have a Happy New Year.

From: Matt
31-Dec-21
“ Phil- please read what I wrote and STOP trying to CHANGE the subject! We’re talking about curbing the spread- NOT lessening the severity.”

Can you provide anything that shows that slowing the spread was the primary goal of the vaccines? You seem to be avoiding answering that question. Just because you keep repeating that does not make it true. From my perspective you seem to be establishing false goalposts by criticizing the vaccines for failing at something they were not designed to do.

I admittedly do not watch the news so have no idea what has been said (literally heard Fauci talk for the first time last week since 1Q20). I do spend a ton of time reading studies/articles on COVID, and the claim that the purpose for the vaccine was to reduce the spread of the disease is news to me.

From: Rocky D
01-Jan-22
Quit arguing the data! Data says take the vaccine!

If you decide not to take take the vaccine do not try to justify it with others. It is your decision regardless of how you come up with the answer.

I decided to get vaccine 1, vaccine 2, and the booster. Booster made me sick for two days and I never second guessed my decision.

I never told anyone to get the vaccine because that is their decision! The vaccine to most people is like the privacy policy to most websites. Accept it and move on or not!

If I were forty or fifty with no significant comorbidities then I would have said Fock the vaccine.

Ironically, if Trump had won the election then the Dems would be the anti vaxers!

That’s why this discussion will not go away.

From: stealthycat
01-Jan-22
what I find most amazing is that people who've had the shot - the vaccine - the stuff that will keep them from dying, from getting really bad sick ... they're the ones freaking out about people who have decided not to get covid

I wasn't living in fear before, I dang sure aint right now and because I'm vaccinated. I mean why would I, I'm vaccinated?

unless the vaccines really don't work well, fail often, don't do what they say, dissipate quick, etc etc .... and if that's the case then why did I have to get it to being with ?

I know I know, same old questions from simple minded people .....

From: Rut Nut
01-Jan-22
I’m not debating whether the vaccines work or not. What I have a problem with is the government and public health agencies trying to bully and shame people into getting the shots by saying it will reduce the spread, when that is clearly NOT the case!

If you had experienced what I have in the last 10 days, you probably would have a much different view of our government and public health system..................

I’ll give you the highlights....................on 12/23 I self reported minor symptoms and was told to get a PCR test at the VA and go home. Was told I would be called if I was positive. If I did not hear anything by end of day 12/24 I was “probably” negative. Was scheduled to visit family on 12/25 so I managed to find a rapid test on my own and took it on 12/23 which was negative. Did not get a call, so assumed my PCR test was also negative. Symptoms worsened on 12/24 and 12/25 so I stayed home not wanting to give my family this “cold”. 12/26 started to feel better, but stayed home on 12/27. Returned to work 12/28 and was cleared to treat patients since I was now asymptomatic and it was >5 days from onset of symptoms (new CDC Guidelines). When I got back to my office I get a call from Occupational Health that they finally got my PCR test results back from 12/23 and there are 2 results- one Positive AND one Negative! I ask how is that possible when I only took one(PCR) test at the VA? I am told there must be a mistake, but I “must go home”. I asked why and was told if they have one positive result for me, I must go home. I said but you just told me it was a mistake. I also inform them I have the results from my rapid test I took on 12/23 at home and am told that “is not good enough because rapid tests are not as accurate as the PCR” So I continue to isolate in my private office while they try to figure this out.

20 min later I get a call asking me to take a (get this!) ...............RAPID test! I said you just told me 20 min ago a rapid test was no good! She didn’t know what to say................finally she says- “well, that is the best we can do” You need to either take the rapid test or go home immediately...............so I take the test and guess what: 2 hours later they tell me it’s Positive and I need to go home. The next afternoon I get a call asking if I am still asymptomatic and what was the date of onset of symptoms- I say yes, (still asymptomatic) and onset of symptoms was 12/23. So they clear me to return to work. I asked WHY was I sent home yesterday if I was asymptomatic and it was >5 days from onset of symptoms and they again don’t know what to say.....................

When I returned to work on Thursday I asked them to explain why I was sent home on 12/28 and also to explain how I could get 2 results for my ONE PCR test I took on 12/23 and I am still waiting for answers.

So after this experience, you will have to forgive me if I question ANYTHING the government or any public health agency tells me! : (

01-Jan-22
Rut, that is a nightmare. But the process you went through doesn't give me a different view of the government or the public health system. I know that there are some serious issues, not only related to COVID, but that doesn't have to lead to condemning the entire system.

The testing process has been a huge issue for me in the past few months. There is inconsistent information about how accurate the rapid tests are, the availability of at-home tests and there are horrendous delays in getting PCR tests and results. Then there are the bureaucratic issues.

What is bothersome is that, even in our area, there are some places where you need to wait on line for hours to get a PCR test (if they don't run out or fill a quota) or wait days to get results when others can schedule a test within a day and get results within 48 hours.

From: Mike in CT
01-Jan-22
Rut,

I'd be pretty pissed if I was put through what you were as well. I'm not sure what the rationale was for repeating a test and informing you that one result was negative and one was positive. As a rule the criteria for repeating a test are if you have an indeterminate result or if you are required to confirm a positive and you get a negative result you then use a different methodology (or even send the test out to a reference lab). I can't ever recall getting a positive and a negative and not confirming one way or the other.

The PCR test has been too often misused; ideally it should be used to confirm a positive in a less sensitive screening test (the purpose of a screening test is to rule out a disease, then you move to a more sensitive test like PCR to confirm a disease).

Additionally, many PCR tests are designed to detect a specific part of a pathogen (virus in this case) and it need not be an intact virus to produce a positive test. The best tool in the world if used incorrectly can produce a bad outcome.

I'm sorry you had to go through that and I hope 2022 is a vast improvement for you and everyone on the front lines of healthcare.

From: Rut Nut
01-Jan-22
Mike,

We have been required to take the PCR test twice a week for almost a month now. (Those of us who work on the nursing home unit)

I have been accepting of the protocols up to this point, even though they don’t make much sense. They were requiring us(employees) to test twice a week(even if fully vaccinated) while allowing visitors(family) into the nursing home with no screening for vaccination, negative tests or even taking their temperature.

Back when the pandemic started, I was not concerned and did not really want to take the vaccine but I decided to get it just to make my life easier. At that time, they told us if we got the vaccine we could take get an Anti-body test and if it came back with a result of “High” anti-bodies, we could stop the weekly testing for at least 2 months. 2 weeks after my 2nd Moderna shot, I took the anti-body test and got my results: Antibody level HIGH .

That lasted a whole 2 weeks and then we got word that if you spent 50% of your day on the nursing home unit you would have to continue the weekly testing! : (

So they continue to move the goalposts and contradict themselves on a regular basis. Although very frustrating, I have continued to comply with all their directives in the name of patient safety. However, after the fiasco of the last 10 days, I have little reason to trust anything they tell me...........

And to top it off, the most recent guidance from the VA (that came out on Thursday) is totally contradictory to the new CDC Guidelines!

“Good morning, Perry, WE have new directives from VHA, and are what we are now calling “Contingency’ status. According to the advice we are using, all asymptomatic employees, negative or positive, can return to work after 5 days if you had the booster. If you were vaccinated, without the booster, you will need to have a negative test before you come back on Day 5. If you weren’t vaccinated in the first place, it is 7 days with a negative test prior to return on Day 7. This is brand new advice, which we worked to implement yesterday. This is now our universal advice.”

I got that from my supervisor on Thursday. Then I was sent the following from a co-worker:

The newly updated CDC guidelines don't require testing at the end of isolation because PCR tests can stay positive for up to 12 weeks, CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky told "Good Morning America" on Wednesday. "So we would have people in isolation for a very long time if we were relying on PCRs," Walensky said. Walensky also addressed Tuesday's news from the FDA that, according to early data, rapid antigen tests may be less sensitive when it comes to the omicron variant. "We do know that the most sensitive test you can do is a PCR test," Walensky said. "So if you have symptoms and you have a negative antigen test, we do ask you to go and get a PCR to make sure those symptoms are not attributable to COVID."

So if you can make ANY sense of this Mike, I would like to hear your take on it! ;-)

From: Mike in CT
01-Jan-22
Perry,

I wish I could make sense out of that-lots of contradictions and it almost sounds like the old line about "making it up as we go along." The drawbacks of PCR tests have been known for so long I don't know why some organizations are still overly reliant on them; you're guaranteed to pick up positives on people who probably haven't been infectious for weeks if not months....it's nonsense.

I don't know who in the area VISN or higher up in the VA Healthcare system would be a receptive ear that could advocate for you and your colleagues; all I see is every reason for people to doubt and it's got to be demoralizing as hell.

Again, my sympathies for what you've been put through and for what appears to still be in the future.

For what it's worth I have the highest regard and respect for you and all those other brave souls on the frontlines of healthcare.

I hope things get better for you all....

From: Rut Nut
01-Jan-22
Thanks for your kind words, Mike! As you can imagine, this has been the most confusing AND frustrating 2 years of my 30+ year career! The only thing that has kept me going is working with the veterans and trying my best to keep them safe.

I have resisted the urge to criticize our system and the government, but after what I have seen in the last 2 years, I just could not keep quiet!

I’m really not ready to retire quite yet.................But at this point, I am trying to decide whether I can endure another couple years of this NONESENSE!

01-Jan-22
Crazy times. Not much of a bright spot but I have several friends who would love to have a screwed up situation at work because it would mean they still had their work. Either their business or their job didn't make it through the closures.

They will all be fine because they are the type to get up when knocked down but their career plans took a massive hit. They are are at different points in moving on with new jobs or new ventures.

From: Jaquomo
01-Jan-22
President Biden has said publicly and adamantly, numerous times, that if you are vaccinated, you can't spread the virus to anyone else. Also, from the CNN Town Hall in July, "You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations."

You guys saying this isn't true? That this president might be spreading misinformation about vaccines and the virus? That we can't trust the Commander in Chief? Shocking. (Tongue in cheek). More shocking that the media is still skewering Trump while ignoring Biden whenever he spreads misinformation.

From: Rut Nut
01-Jan-22
You’re right Glunt................I feel fortunate to have a job and feel bad for all those who have lost them due to the vaccine mandates and/or damage to our economy caused by the shutdown.

I posted the above info to give people an idea of what is going on and how screwed up our government is and it’s response to this pandemic. It’s not about me................I’ll come out of this just fine................eventually. But I’ve seen too much to ever believe or trust a government agency again! : (

From: scentman
01-Jan-22
Just think when we finally get a handle on the China weapon, we will post about things like hunting again... or until some other partisan subject comes along.

From: Rut Nut
02-Jan-22

Rut Nut's Link
Very interesting!

A new South African study found that hospitalized patients during the omicron surge were far less likely to have severe illness or die.

Compared to South Africa's coronavirus waves in summer 2020, winter 2020 and spring 2021, the newest wave of the virus, which coincided with the identification of omicron, saw fewer severe cases and deaths.

Seventy-four percent of hospitalized patients required oxygen therapy during the delta variant's wave in South Africa. That number has dropped to 17.6% amid omicron. The median length of stay in the hospital prior to omicron was seven to eight days – it’s since dropped to three days.

The death rate of hospitalized COVID-19 patients in South Africa during the delta wave was 29.1%. Omicron’s is 2.7%.

02-Jan-22
Scentman,

There will always be partisanship…

The same people who looked at the voting numbers and were able to deduce the election was stolen are for the most part the same people looking at the virus data and concluding the vaccine doesn’t work. If Repubs don’t take both Houses this year and the presidency in ‘24, these are the people we can thank.

From: Jegs.mi
02-Jan-22

Jegs.mi's embedded Photo
Jegs.mi's embedded Photo

02-Jan-22
Yet, you keep coming back to look at it;-)

From: stealthycat
02-Jan-22
Rut Nut - I was looking at infection rates in African nations yesterday

More and more I believe that obesity is the #1 reason people die from covid

the USA is what, 43% obese? studies showing up to 85% of deaths/serious infections were obese people ....

there should be a massive campaign/push for people to get healthy but of course the American way is the easier way out and just get a shot :(

From: azelkhntr
02-Jan-22
https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-12-27-study-400000-people-america-died-covid-vaccines.html

We cant trust the VAERS either. Never could.

From: Matt
02-Jan-22
The way that article misrepresents the VAERS data and uses highly scientific phraseology like “Fauci Flu Injections” and “Chinese Virus injections” really lends credibility to the article.

Do you even read this stuff before you post it?

From: azelkhntr
02-Jan-22

From: azelkhntr
02-Jan-22
Read every word. I was focused on the message not the method of delivery. I apologize. I should have considered the higher sensibilities of the recipient prior to posting such. Lord FauXi patron $aint of Wuhan forgive me my trespasses. LOL

02-Jan-22
It is harmful to convolute past covid variant data along with the current Omicron variant.

People needs to catch up to the implications of the current dominant virus, and be willing to drop personal convictions based on outdated information.

The Omicron variant is Not Delta. Death and severe health complications are greatly reduced with Omicron. Vaccine efficacy is now nearly zero. Health risks between vaccinated and unvaccinated may have reversed. The vaccinated now seem to be more at risk to severe complications to Omicron than unvaccinated.

This pandemic is no longer comparable to when the Delta variant was dominant.

All policies regarding Covid must be revisited with the new variant.

From: Matt
02-Jan-22
"The Omicron variant is Not Delta. Death and severe health complications are greatly reduced with Omicron. Vaccine efficacy is now nearly zero. Health risks between vaccinated and unvaccinated may have reversed. The vaccinated now seem to be more at risk to severe complications to Omicron than unvaccinated."

That is interesting, where are you seeing the data that suggests the vaccinated may be more at risk?

From: azelkhntr
02-Jan-22
I just read a blurb from a Dr. who is claiming that the omicron variant of the Sars-Cov-2 is natures own inoculation against it. The virus has mutated to a much more transmittable virus but with very mild cold like symptoms. This means that you are at zero to no risk from it, but the big bennie is you acquire the natural antibodies to the SC-2. The x-vax pushers of course knew this would happen as it always does, but they still kept pushing drugs that clearly didn't work as sold. Why? I'm in the forced depopulation camp via the willing acceptance of a drug via a massive fear campaign. They failed in getting the job done. GOD only knows what they'll do now.

From: Old Bow
02-Jan-22

 Old Bow 's embedded Photo
 Old Bow 's embedded Photo

02-Jan-22
My 82 year old father had Covid in November 2020. 80 year old mother also. Both came through at home with no issues. When the vaccine came out both were double vaccinated and boosted. Guess what Dad has covid again. This week we have 5 in the family with positive breakthrough covid tests and medium symptoms. All with full vaccination and Dad with natural immunity and 3 vaccinations. Things that make you go mmmmmmm

02-Jan-22
Paul “if enough people are ignorant and uniformed”, honestly, IMO, there is no “if”. And that is sad!

From: Rut Nut
03-Jan-22

Rut Nut's Link
So it appears Fauci and the CDC may end up backpeddling on their NO testing after 5 day quarantine now............................................

This is what is infuriating about Fauci and the CDC! They say "follow the science" but it appears they have no clue.....................................when they change the rules every couple weeks! So here I am back at work, Asymptomatic and well past the 5 day isolation period and they are gonna require I have a negative test to return to work? Well, guess what...............................I am back at work and here to stay! They can talk about a negative test all they want, but they made the decision last week that NO negative test was required- so glad I got the OK to come back before they thought about backpeddling! ;-)

And people wonder why we don't trust anything the governement tells us???!!!

From: Fuzzy
03-Jan-22
Here's an interesting exercise:

Contact your local State Health Department office, and ask to speak to the District Administrator or Director. Submit a FOIA request for the yearly District budget with line-item revenue sources listed. OR if you don't want to do the math ask them to reveal what the percentage of yearly projected revenue comes from vaccines administered.

From: Mike in CT
03-Jan-22

Mike in CT's Link
Here's a better exercise; research Federal assistance for vaccines first, then draw a conclusion.

FYI, you can go back further than 1963; perhaps some of you have heard of polio?

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.45.10.1349

From: bigeasygator
03-Jan-22

bigeasygator's Link
The Omicron variant is Not Delta. Death and severe health complications are greatly reduced with Omicron. Vaccine efficacy is now nearly zero. Health risks between vaccinated and unvaccinated may have reversed. The vaccinated now seem to be more at risk to severe complications to Omicron than unvaccinated.

This is false. Recent studies have shown that with a booster, vaccine efficacy remains incredibly high against omicron (80-90%).

"Most impressively (as shown in the figure from Andrews N, et al.) a booster substantially raised that vaccine effectiveness to about 80 percent. That’s not quite as high as for Delta, but certainly an encouraging result. Once again, these data show that boosting the immune system after a pause produces enhanced immunity against new viral variants, even though the booster was designed from the original virus. Your immune system is awfully clever. You get both quantitative and qualitative benefits."

From: Rut Nut
03-Jan-22
BigEasyGator- We are up to 15 positive cases on our nursing home unit and climbing. 10 were negative as of this morning, but 2 of them had COVID previously, so they probably have anti-bodies. The entire ward(100%) was vaccinated and just recently they all got their boosters......................

8 of the staff are out sick today with COVID........................................ALL were vacccinated! Several of us got COVID and were cleared to return to work.................................ALL vaccinated.

So I would say your conculsions above seem to be WAY OFF! : (

03-Jan-22
Efficacy is confusing because people can be talking about percentage of infection, infection becoming Covid, symptomatic Covid, or Covid that results in severe symptoms or death.

03-Jan-22

walking buffalo's Link
Bigeasygator,

Take note of the linked Covid cases by vaccination status, both per 100,000 and total cases.

Many jurisdictions are now providing current data that reveals Fully vaccinated people are becoming infected with Omicron at a greater rate than the fully Unvaccinated.

This has been a wild swing from how Delta effected people. A full 180. It is critical that data used now to evaluate where the danger lies is NOT convoluted with previous variants.

As Mike Ukrainetz showed earlier in this thread, the dramatic trend is that now the Vaccinated are most likely to be infected. The hospitalization rate is also swinging to the Fully vaccinated being most likely to be hospitalized. Many doctors are warning that the repeated vaccinations are causing peoples' immune system to be worn out..... the data is certainly is trending to show that these doctors are correct. The vaccine is both not only Not working, it possibly is causing greater Harm to people than the Unvaccinated.

From: bigeasygator
03-Jan-22
So I would say your conculsions above seem to be WAY OFF! : (

These conclusions come from a study done out of the UK, but have also been backed up by further study work from Pfizer/BioNTech). The effectiveness is based on symptomatic disease, not infection. Of the individuals you mention in your ward, how what is the breakdown of not-infected vs. asymptomatic infection vs. symptomatic infection against the unvaccinated vs. vaccinated w/ two doses vs. vaccinated w/ three or more doses?

Many jurisdictions are now providing current data that reveals Fully vaccinated people are becoming infected with Omicron at a greater rate than the fully Unvaccinated.

This has been a wild swing from how Delta effected people. A full 180. It is critical that data used now to evaluate where the danger lies is NOT convoluted with previous variants.

Jumping to the conclusion that the vaccine is not only not working, but causing greater harm, is still premature. A few comments:

- Fully vaccinated in this data is still only two doses. Given the timeframe of vaccination and the mutation of the coronavirus, there's a strong case to be made that fully vaccinated should mean three doses.

- As has been discussed, we should move away from case rates as the metric driving our response. If all we have are asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic cases then there is no need for concern.

- Hospitalizations, ICU admittals, and deaths are much more meaningful statistics - and on this front the data is clear - the vaccine is very effective. The data you posted backs this up. While only 13% of the population is unvaccinated, they make up a disproportionate amount of the hospitalizations and ICU cases (29% and 63% respectively).

From: Matt
03-Jan-22
“ The Omicron variant is Not Delta. Death and severe health complications are greatly reduced with Omicron. Vaccine efficacy is now nearly zero. Health risks between vaccinated and unvaccinated may have reversed. The vaccinated now seem to be more at risk to severe complications to Omicron than unvaccinated.”

While I partially agree with your thesis about not blindly applying rules learned from old variants to new ones, you are in essence doing the same by using positive tests and not hospitalizations/deaths as the basis for your conclusion. Despite the breakthrough infections we saw to a degree with Delta and now frequently with Omicron, I have seen nothing to suggest that the vaccines do not continue to provide good protection from the hospitalization/death which is their purpose.

03-Jan-22
woohoo...#600

From: BowSniper
03-Jan-22
Vaccine with booster is 80% effective? (1) Define effective - does that mean you don't catch covid at all, or you don't get hospitalized from the covid? (2) How long does that 80% effective last after getting the booster? Note - The first two shots faded pretty quickly, thus needing the booster. And the booster is the exact same medicine.

BigEZGator - Please clarify.

From: azelkhntr
03-Jan-22
From: Rut Nut03-Jan-22 BigEasyGator- We are up to 15 positive cases on our nursing home unit and climbing. 10 were negative as of this morning, but 2 of them had COVID previously, so they probably have anti-bodies. The entire ward(100%) was vaccinated and just recently they all got their boosters...................... 8 of the staff are out sick today with COVID........................................ALL were vacccinated! Several of us got COVID and were cleared to return to work.................................ALL vaccinated.

So I would say your conculsions above seem to be WAY OFF! : (

/// A first person account of what is really happening in his part of the world is so much more credible than some obscure study.

03-Jan-22
Hospitalizations, ICU admittals, and deaths are much more meaningful statistics - and on this front the data is clear - the vaccine is very effective. The data you posted backs this up. While only 13% of the population is unvaccinated, they make up a disproportionate amount of the hospitalizations and ICU cases (29% and 63% respectively). -------------------------------

And this 29/63 is a wild change from last month when it was 90/10. Likewise, hospitalization (non ICU) is now 30% Unvaccinated and 70% vaccinated. A huge change.... There is a sharp upward trend for the Vaccinated to be infected and hospitalized. This change in vaccination efficacy with Omicron is too significant to ignore or explain away with but, but, but....

From: bigeasygator
03-Jan-22

bigeasygator's Link
And this 29/63 is a wild change from last month when it was 90/10. Likewise, hospitalization (non ICU) is now 30% Unvaccinated and 70% vaccinated. A huge change.... There is a sharp upward trend for the Vaccinated to be infected and hospitalized. This change in vaccination efficacy with Omicron is too significant to ignore or explain away with but, but, but....

Not all that surprising when more and more of the population becomes vaccinated. If 100% of the population is vaccinated, then 100% of the cases will come from vaccinated individuals. That is where it is more meaningful to also look at the number of hospitalizations and rates we are currently seeing and comparing those to numbers earlier in the pandemic prior to vaccine availability and widespread vaccine rollout.

And I'll ask again, how many of those listed as "fully vaccinated" in the Canada data have been boosted? I would venture to guess a large percentage of the vaccinated hospitalizations only have two doses. As the study I referenced showing strong initial effectiveness of the booster highlights:

Our findings indicate that 2 doses of vaccination with BNT162b2 or ChAdOx1 are insufficient to give adequate levels of protection against infection and mild disease with the Omicron variant, although we cannot comment on protection against severe disease. Booster doses of BNT162b2 provide a significant increase in protection against mild disease and are likely to offer even greater levels of protection against severe disease. As such our findings support maximising coverage with third doses of vaccine in highly vaccinated populations such as the UK. Further follow-up will be needed to assess the duration of protection of booster vaccination.

Vaccine with booster is 80% effective? (1) Define effective - does that mean you don't catch covid at all, or you don't get hospitalized from the covid? (2) How long does that 80% effective last after getting the booster? Note - The first two shots faded pretty quickly, thus needing the booster. And the booster is the exact same medicine.

I clarified in a follow up post. The UK study looked at symptomatic infection. The vaccine was 75% effective in avoiding symptomatic infection and 88% effective in avoiding hospitalizations. See link.

From: Matt
03-Jan-22
"And this 29/63 is a wild change from last month when it was 90/10. Likewise, hospitalization (non ICU) is now 30% Unvaccinated and 70% vaccinated. A huge change.... There is a sharp upward trend for the Vaccinated to be infected and hospitalized. This change in vaccination efficacy with Omicron is too significant to ignore or explain away with but, but, but...."

But, but but....the unvaccinated, who comprise only 13% of Ontario's population of the vaccine eligible, represent 29% of hospitalizations and 62% of those the ICU based on the data you provided. Do you honestly believe the logical conclusion of that is "The vaccine is both not only Not working, it possibly is causing greater Harm to people than the Unvaccinated." That strikes me as blatant misrepresentation.

I look at that data and my take-away is that the vaccines continue to work well but not as effectively as they did versus the original strain. That is to be expected to some degree as we are dealing with a mutated virus and the vaccine's peak effectiveness tends to be short lived (see chart in BEG's link above). Based on what I have read, that seems to be par for the course for corona viruses. There is a reason we do not get vaccinated for some diseases past childhood and yet some people get a cold each year.

From: Rut Nut
03-Jan-22
At end of shift today the COVID (+) cases were up to 17. The latest vet to test positive on the nursing home was in a room with 3 of the negative patients, so I expect the numbers will continue to climb.

I don’t treat all of the vets on the ward, so I don’t have access to all of their records. But talking to the Physician and Nurse Manager, all (100%) were fully vaccinated and in early December they all got the Moderna booster.

I do know one was transferred out to a higher level of care and at least 7 were sent up to the acute medical ward and were either treated with monoclonal antibodies or Remdesivir/Dexamethasone. A couple vets were asymptotic and a couple refused all tx (one is 100 y/o and the other is on hospice)

Got word today our outpatient clinics are going “virtual” for at least the next 2 weeks......................all telehealth apts except for urgent cases.

Don’t think anyone expected this after all the vaccine mandates and the push to get boosters.....................

03-Jan-22
I look at that data and my take-away is that the vaccines continue to work well but not as effectively as they did versus the original strain.

Just to be sure you understood my quick lazy typing.

From the data I linked, Hospitalizations for the vaccinated has increased from 10% to 70% of the total, with the population being 80% vaccinated.

At this rate of change, the vaccinated will soon overtake the unvaccinated for Omicron hospitalizations on a per capita basis. The vaccinated are already more likely to become infected with Omicron than the unvaccinated on a per capita basis.

The data is showing that the vaccines do not work well, perhaps at all, in preventing being infected with Omicron, and that being fully vaccinated may in fact be detrimental to your health compared to being unvaccinated.

Don't misunderstand my view. With the original Covid-19 and the delta variant, the vaccine did work quite well. With Omicron, it is not and may even be harmful compared to being unvaccinated.

From: Matt
03-Jan-22
"I look at that data and my take-away is that the vaccines continue to work well but not as effectively as they did versus the original strain."

"With Omicron, it is not and may even be harmful compared to being unvaccinated."

I struggle to reconcile these views, as they appear to be in opposition to one another. Likewise, the second comment seems to fall flat when one considers 13% of Ontario's population is unvaccinated and yet they represent 29% of COVID hospitalizations (2.2x greater rate than the vaccinated) and 62% of COVID ICU patients (4.8x greater rate than the vaccinated). Seems to me that the vaccine is doing a good job in averting serious illness or death which is what it was designed to do.

From: spike78
03-Jan-22
Blah blah most of the people I know who now have Covid are vaccinated so take your crap BEG and stick it. I bet if the government told you Cyanide was healthy for you that you would take it geez.

From: Hackbow
03-Jan-22
"woohoo...#600" - Bob Hildenbrand

Hi Bobby! Yours is my favorite post so far. Factual, concise, non-inflammatory and cheery. I nominate you for National Health Czar!

From: Rut Nut
03-Jan-22
From: Matt 03-Jan-22

Seems to me that the vaccine is doing a good job in averting serious illness or death which is what it was designed to do.

OR....................the Omicron variant has mutated to a point where it is not anywhere near as deadly as the earlier variants and has nothing to do with so called “protection” from the vaccines..........................

From: spike78
03-Jan-22
Matt just curious in these stats do they tell you that the majority of unvaccinated are unhealthy, obese, old? Are the unvaccinated people with heart problems hence why they were directed by their Dr to not get vaccinated? Seems we need a little more of a study here.

From: Grey Ghost
03-Jan-22
Highbow,

I’m also anxiously awaiting the SC’s ruling. They’ve upheld state and local government vaccine mandates in the past, but never a federal mandate, as far as I know. This will be a classic state versus federal authority ruling that could affect more than just vaccines.

Matt

03-Jan-22
Ironically now Biden wants the States to handle things.

From: spike78
03-Jan-22
Dr. Chethan Sathya, a pediatric surgeon at Cohen Children's Medical Center in New York, part of Northwell Health, said that "literally every child" whom he and his team operated on or treated otherwise over the weekend was Covid-positive. Even if their illnesses weren't specific to the coronavirus, they stretched resources nevertheless. Yup all Covid hospitalization statistics even though they were not there due to Covid. How are we to trust any numbers or statistics? So more unvaccinated in hospitals then vaccinated. How are we to know the unvaccinated aren’t people having open heart surgery who could not get a vaccine And contracted Covid? We don’t which is why I take all things said with a grain of salt.

From: Rut Nut
03-Jan-22

Rut Nut's Link
NYC has a vax mandate for all children 5-11 y/o to participate in any indoor activities now..................

From: Treeline
03-Jan-22
So… Obviously not vaccines… So, the injections do not matter.

From: spike78
03-Jan-22
Oh great news on my wife’s friends 86 year old father who went to the ER for a numb leg and was tested positive for Covid even though he had no symptoms. He is doing fine BUT they want to keep him one more day to suck more money I mean make sure he’s ok. So now we have a vaccinated old man who went to the hospital and miraculously made it out alive to add to the vaccinated and lived statistics. Oh by the way his leg went numb cuz he was on the toilet for too long. I guess that’s reason for a 5 day hospital stay but hey I guess the hospital got that nice Covid money from the government on top of Medicare for 5 days. Gotta love it but I’m sure you guys will have something to say otherwise.

From: Grey Ghost
03-Jan-22
Brad,

You seem to have an unusually high number of friends, family, and acquaintances who have contracted Covid. Didn’t you also get infected? Perhaps you and your circle should consider adopting new healthier habits. Just a thought.

Matt

From: Mike in CT
03-Jan-22
"Yup all Covid hospitalization statistics even though they were not there due to Covid. How are we to trust any numbers or statistics? So more unvaccinated in hospitals then vaccinated. How are we to know the unvaccinated aren’t people having open heart surgery who could not get a vaccine And contracted Covid? We don’t which is why I take all things said with a grain of salt."

Spike, believe me I'd be turning handstands if you're posts actually reflected someone "taking things with a grain of salt." In reality your posts align more with the camp of "don't bother me with facts, my minds made up."

Leaving the politics aside you seem to have a lot of misconceptions about how the healthcare system works, how statistics are tallied and how reimbursements work.

First, some homework for you; look up "epidemiology"; this will help you understand better how and why statistics are kept and why the metrics for their tallying are what they are. This is an integral part of the public health system so it will be a worthwhile endeavor.

Next, I want you to look up "DRG" and take note of what it means to a hospital in terms of cost burden and in particular what happens when the cost of treating a patient exceeds the DRG reimbursement (you know, that "Covid gravy train you and a host of others seem to think every hospital taps into).

We'll leave some of the harder subjects for later when I see you've made an honest effort at the two things I've just listed.

Knowledge is power Spike and if you take an honest stab at the 2 things I've "assigned" you odds are you'll feel a bit foolish about some of the things you've posted here.

Perhaps....

From: Grey Ghost
03-Jan-22
Don’t hold your breath, Mike.

Matt

From: spike78
03-Jan-22
So Mike are not saying that even though a person in the hospital for some other reason just so happens to test positive and is marked as such should be counted as X number of people in the hospital with Covid? Wouldn’t this be an unfair statistic when counting Covid cases OR is it just the media blowing things up so it’s a better story? I love how you guys post your stupid numbers but don’t care that they could be skewed in your favor. BUT I guess I’m wrong in that regard as well? Just remember Mike it’s 14 day quarantine no 10 quarantine better yet make that 5 day quarantine. My customer at work has been cleared after 5 days to go back to work but yet talking to him on the phone today and coughing every few minutes but no biggie he just has to wear a mask. Yup Matt, know a few people with the vid and no I haven’t got it yet. And nope still no vaccine. Maybe I will pay but maybe not we will see.

From: Matt
03-Jan-22

Matt's Link
"OR....................the Omicron variant has mutated to a point where it is not anywhere near as deadly as the earlier variants and has nothing to do with so called “protection” from the vaccines.........................."

Omicron hasn't been in the US long enough to have an appreciable impact to hospitalizations/deaths. The first case was not identified until November 29th, Omicron was not the dominant strain until ~2 weeks ago, and it generally takes a couple of weeks for infection to translate to hospitalization. With that said, the impact of Omicron may not even be included in the data I reference.

On a related note, a friend who works at a local hospital told me tonight that COVID hospitalizations at her facility tripled from last week to this week so it is likely we will be seeing data on the Omicron impact soon. Concurrently, there has been a spike in positive cases amongst the staff so they are facing staff shortages just as hospitalizations are increasing.

"Matt just curious in these stats do they tell you that the majority of unvaccinated are unhealthy, obese, old? Are the unvaccinated people with heart problems hence why they were directed by their Dr to not get vaccinated? Seems we need a little more of a study here."

I can't answer that comprehensively, but the data indicates the oldest age groups are the most vaccinated and the youngest the least (see link). 3/4 of US COVID deaths were of people 65+ and that groups is 85%+ fully vaccinated/virtually 100% with a single dose.

With 78% of the US population 5+ yo having received at least one dose of COVID vaccine I can't imagine that there are glaring differences between the demographics of the vaccinated an unvaccinated groups (but I have not seen any data to support that). If the data by age group is any indication, the most at-risk groups may have a higher than average vaccination %.

The only interesting correlation I have seen around obesity/poor health is that there is an overlap between some of the least vaccinated states (AR, LA, MS, AL, and GA) and the least healthy US states (AR, LA, OK, AL, MS).

From: RK
03-Jan-22
Are you vaxxed now GG?

From: Mike in CT
03-Jan-22
"So Mike are not saying that even though a person in the hospital for some other reason just so happens to test positive and is marked as such should be counted as X number of people in the hospital with Covid?"

No, and this is a great illustration of why I advised you to start doing some homework. A Covid positive test alone does not place a patient into the category of "Covid infection/disease"; this only happens when a positive test occurs in a patient that meets diagnostic criteria (symptoms, clinical presentation) for COVID. This is a commonly repeated fallacy of those who refuse to accept valid reporting from hospitals and their respective states DOH's.

" Wouldn’t this be an unfair statistic when counting Covid cases OR is it just the media blowing things up so it’s a better story?"

No, but what's unfair is when people are presented many opportunities to educate themselves on what is fact versus what is fiction and not only ignore the evidence but go on to repeat the same falsehoods again and again.

"I love how you guys post your stupid numbers but don’t care that they could be skewed in your favor. BUT I guess I’m wrong in that regard as well?"

I loathe the fact that there is a very real disease with very real consequences that has adversely impacted people I have worked alongside of for almost 2 years now and continues to tax frontline healthcare workers who have overcome every obstacle imaginable from a microbiological perspective only to have to deal with accusations made by a willfully ignorant public. As I advised the post before if you'd bothered to look into the basics of disease reporting I suggested you'd have likely not posted something so completely off-base and so utterly contemptible.

And yes, you're wrong in this regard as well as several others

" Just remember Mike it’s 14 day quarantine no 10 quarantine better yet make that 5 day quarantine. "

Just remember Spike; all the data from all 50 states up through the emergence of the Omicron variant has emphatically hammered home that this has become a pandemic of the unvaccinated. Just remember the role sycophants of false prophets have played in that reality and be sure to pat yourself on the back for a job well done.

I don't have the luxury of passing this off as a conspiracy or worse, just laughing it off; maybe if you'd tagged along with me on a few of my visits to ICU's in the Northeast the past almost 2 years you'd have a more open mind on the subject.

From: Grey Ghost
03-Jan-22
RK,

No I’m not for my own personal reasons, not because I’m anti-vax. How about you?

Matt

From: BC
03-Jan-22
We had twenty plus people in on Christmas Eve. All vax'd, all boosted, no masks. Great time. So far no one is sick with covid. Go figure.

From: Matt
03-Jan-22
"I don't have the luxury of passing this off as a conspiracy or worse, just laughing it off; maybe if you'd tagged along with me on a few of my visits to ICU's in the Northeast the past almost 2 years you'd have a more open mind on the subject."

I can't help but think if there was an hour on TV every week where the general public got to see what the frontline healthcare workers are having to deal with in ICU's across America for almost 2 years, the attitude of the naysayers would be very different. It has parallels to the disrespect our soldiers received when returning from Vietnam.

From: Rocky D
03-Jan-22
My biggest issue with this administration is that they have been a big part of the misinformation.

Sadly, I have come to the conclusion that there must be a reason for the misinformation or they would try to do damage control,

I am not thinking conspiracy but you would think that someone in charge would make the effort and setup something to try to get the messaging straight!

Even though I am not a Biden fan boy you would think that he would do this to control the optics and it damn sure couldn’t hurt his approval rating!

From: Hackbow
04-Jan-22
"It has parallels to the disrespect our soldiers received when returning from Vietnam."

Matt, I'm not aware of an anti-mandate person spitting on frontline healthcare workers, calling them baby-killers, protesting them or shunning them, etc. EDITED my snark out.

From: Rut Nut
04-Jan-22
From: Mike in CT03-Jan-22

Just remember Spike; all the data from all 50 states up through the emergence of the Omicron variant has emphatically hammered home that this has become a pandemic of the unvaccinated.

With all due respect Mike, from what we have seen the last few weeks on the front lines.................................................................... Omicron seems to be contradicting everything we thought we knew up to this point.

On a related and interesting note..........................................my wife is the only one in our immediate family who has not been vaccinated. My 23 y/0 son and 17 y/o daughter are both vaccinated. About 4 weeks ago my daughter picked up that nasty stomach bug that was going around and passed it to me a few days later and then my son about 12 hrs after me. We were all violently ill for several days. (my daughter was so ill my wife actually took her to the ER. ) She was tested for COVID and was negative- was told it was simply a stomach bug. My wife never got it. Then I contract COVID on 12/23........................thankfully I did not pass it to my family! So here I am wearing a mask and face shield 8 hours a day for almost 2 years and in about a month I get both a nasty stomach bug and COVID. That tells me masks and face shields aren't as effective as we are led to believe. : (

I'm sure I won;t change any minds, but I felt I should give my observations on what is going on as a front line worker. We are having an "All Employee Forum" today at noon, so I may have more info later.

From: Rut Nut
04-Jan-22
From: Matt03-Jan-22

I can't help but think if there was an hour on TV every week where the general public got to see what the frontline healthcare workers are having to deal with in ICU's across America for almost 2 years, the attitude of the naysayers would be very different. It has parallels to the disrespect our soldiers received when returning from Vietnam.

You mean the thousands and thousands of healthcare workers that labored thru the worst part of the pandemic, and were THANKED by losing their jobs because they would not get the vaccine?

How ironic is it that now the remaining healthcare workers are being stressed at new levels when thousands and thousands of healthcare workers are sitting at home looking for a new job......................................

From: Snag
04-Jan-22

Snag's Link
If you watch the last of this interview starting at the 20:00 mark this Doctor brings up a point everyone should consider. Then you may want to start it from the beginning and listen with an open mind.

04-Jan-22
RockyD it is mol a conspiracy trying to ride the horse to the Midterm election.Politicians don't care about you they care about votes.

04-Jan-22
“So Mike are not saying that even though a person in the hospital for some other reason just so happens to test positive and is marked as such should be counted as X number of people in the hospital with Covid? Wouldn’t this be an unfair statistic when counting Covid cases OR is it just the media blowing things up so it’s a better story?“

spike - FWIW- I think there are valid questions about mortality statistics. It gets complicated. Did someone die FROM COVID? Did someone die WITH COVID? How do you handle the statistics?

Colin Powell as an example. He had multiple myeloma. It weakened his immune system. He got COVID and died. If he had been infected with influenza, pneumonia or the mumps, he probably would have died. What’s his cause of death? Maybe both?

What if Colin Powell, suffering with multiple myeloma, gets infected with COVID, typhus and necrotizing fasciitis and is on his way to the hospital... and his car gets hit by a bus? He is crushed.

What’s his cause of death then?

There are always going to be some problems with categorization of statistics.

And Mike, who has direct knowledge, states that, “ A Covid positive test alone does not place a patient into the category of "Covid infection/disease"; this only happens when a positive test occurs in a patient that meets diagnostic criteria (symptoms, clinical presentation) for COVID.“

But that seems counterintuitive to me... if someone is physically in the hospital and has COVID... whether they’ve got appendicitis, or getting their tonsils out or sat on the toilet too long and temporarily lost the use of their legs... they’re in the hospital... they’ve got COVID. They’re requiring additional attention and protocols... even if they’re asymptotic.

So. Since they’re in the hospital, with COVID, I don’t have an issue with them being included in the statistics of people in the hospital with COVID.

They aren’t listed as ICU patients or intubated patients.

There are probably some people in the hospital with COVID who may have overstated the severity of their illness out of fear, hypochondria or some Munchausen Syndrome. They take up space and resources too.

Know any guys that have had COVID, but never got tested? Never went to a doctor? Never reported anything? I do. Are they part of a conspiracy to skew statistics?

I think the media sucks. I think that you don’t have to look very hard at most statistics to recognize limitations, problems or “unfairness”. I think people are fallible. Categorization of data can be difficult. I think you have to consider these limitations and problems any time you look at any statistics.

From: Mike in CT
04-Jan-22

Mike in CT's Link
Sorry David but Dr. Malone has made a number of false statements about the vaccine and treatment options and has no credibility with me on the subject and has been taken to task by medical professionals including those with extensive backgrounds in infectious diseases.

Among the misinformation he's spread are that the FDA approved vaccine was not the same as the EUA approved version; this is absolutely false, they are the same vaccine with the exception of a new preservative added to improve stability.

Dr. Malone has also made the false claim that the spike proteins produced by the vaccine are cytotoxic; again, this is demonstrably false as a)the injections are given intramuscularly and the mRNA delivered remains localized, not disseminating through the bloodstream. Additionally, the mRNA codes for a specific protein fragment on the spike protein, not the entire spike protein.

He has also allowed the continued misrepresentation of himself as "the inventor of mRNA vaccine technology" and while he certainly contributed to the science of using mRNA he was one of hundreds who did so. Most in the development credit Katalin Kariko while at U of Penn Medical School.

Dr. Malone is also guilty of recirculating articles that were fundamentally flawed, a number of which were ultimately retracted; one example-"Medical journal Vaccines published a peer-reviewed paper in late June titled "The Safety of Covid-19 vaccinations -- we should rethink the policy." It concluded that Covid-19 shots were causing two people to die for every three they saved -- findings that quickly spread on social media.

A tweet from scientist and Covid-19 vaccine critic Robert Malone summarizing the paper garnered thousands of retweets. A video in which conservative pundit Liz Wheeler discussed the study -- which she said "will shock your socks off" -- has been viewed more than 250,000 times on Facebook.

But Vaccines then retracted the paper, saying it contained "several errors that fundamentally affect the interpretation of the findings.""

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210730-flawed-scientific-papers-fueling-covid-19-misinformation

Dr. Malone has also spread misinformation relative to what has gone on in India and for that I'll post the link.

From: stealthycat
04-Jan-22
"NYC has a vax mandate for all children 5-11 y/o to participate in any indoor activities now.................. "

why?

there are literally only a few hundred kids in the past 2 years that have died of covid and almost all of them were already bad sick

kids under 18 have a 99.99 % chance of not getting covid bad

people know that - right ?

From: Hackbow
04-Jan-22
"people know that - right ?"

stealthycat - Yes. They know. Those using fear, position and regulatory power to gain more control over the masses do not care. They do not care about your children or your children's health. They only care about their ability to seize power and wealth.

From: LINK
04-Jan-22
BC my extended family got together at my grandmothers for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Over 35 people from 10 families and two different states. 2 are vaccinated, a few had Covid before the vaccine.No face diapers and not one case of Covid. Go figure.

From: stealthycat
04-Jan-22
https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/omicron-variant-coronavirus-news-01-04-22/h_b563a607338c0ca3ff13520fa4d5f96e

"We can't vaccinate the planet every six months," says Covid-19 vaccine creator

of course this has always been known

From: Rut Nut
04-Jan-22
From: stealthycat 04-Jan-22

"NYC has a vax mandate for all children 5-11 y/o to participate in any indoor activities now.................. "

why?

there are literally only a few hundred kids in the past 2 years that have died of covid and almost all of them were already bad sick

kids under 18 have a 99.99 % chance of not getting covid bad

people know that - right ?

EXACTLY! WHY Indeed..............

From: Thornton
04-Jan-22

Thornton's embedded Photo
Thornton's embedded Photo
Here's the latest article from my area. I don't think it is working as good as they thought, but I will say we are seeing fewer vaccinated patients in the ERs I work. Sorry I am unable to post the link, but you can google it.

From: Rut Nut
04-Jan-22

Rut Nut's Link
Just found this article.............very interesting!

Especially the part where it says most of the vaccines currently used around the world will do NOTHING to stop the spread of Omicron...........................................of course now I have to pay to get back into the article to copy and paste the exact quote, but that was the takeaway...........................................

From: BowSniper
04-Jan-22
So basically the biggest selling point for the vaccine (which doesn't necessarily prevent catching or spreading the virus) is its claim of being roughly 80% effective at preventing hospitizations??

News flash - so is NOT getting the vaccine. For those who care to remember.... ever since this covid thing started, it was found that '80% of cases were mild or asymptomatic'. Anyone else remember that famous phrase? Before there ever even was a vaccine!! To be clear "80% mild or asymptomatic" means 80% were not sick enough to even go to the hospital. So yeah, no vaccine at all is ALSO be proven to be 80% effective at preventing hospitalizations. It's all in the wording....

The vaccine helps a little, especially for the very old and very sick.... but its statistical importance and longevity for the majority of the population are grossly exaggerated. And the word games being played to push its distribution (and sales) should make that pretty apparent.

From: azelkhntr
04-Jan-22

azelkhntr's Link
Draw your own conclusions.

From: stealthycat
04-Jan-22
bowsniper you are correct

its amazing that a large group of people have been given shots, and they already had 99.9% chance of not getting covid bad anyway ... and we're being told "look how well the shot's have done !! "

THEY WERE NOT GOING TO GET COVID BAD ANYWAY

From: Mike in CT
04-Jan-22

Mike in CT's Link
"Draw your own conclusions."

This one's easy; it's more of the usual nonsense you post and only solidifies the lack of relevancy you rightly are given.

Seek help.....

From: Matt
04-Jan-22

Matt's Link
“ So basically the biggest selling point for the vaccine (which doesn't necessarily prevent catching or spreading the virus) is its claim of being roughly 80% effective at preventing hospitizations?? News flash - so is NOT getting the vaccine. For those who care to remember.... ever since this covid thing started, it was found that '80% of cases were mild or asymptomatic'. Anyone else remember that famous phrase? Before there ever even was a vaccine!! To be clear "80% mild or asymptomatic" means 80% were not sick enough to even go to the hospital. So yeah, no vaccine at all is ALSO be proven to be 80% effective at preventing hospitalizations. It's all in the wording....”

You do not seem to understand that in a comparative analysis to demonstrate a % benefit from the vaccines, there has to be a comparison to some other condition which in this case is being unvaccinated.

“People who were not fully vaccinated this spring and summer were more than 10 times more likely to be hospitalized, and 11 times more likely to die of covid-19, than those who were fully vaccinated, according to one of three major studies published Friday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that highlight the continued efficacy of all three vaccines amid the spread of the highly contagious delta variant.”

04-Jan-22
NY is just now announcing hospitals need to clarify patients with Covid vs patients being treated for Covid when reporting numbers.

From: Kannuck
04-Jan-22
I am so glad the internet wasn't around when they were eradicating smallpox, tetanus, typhoid fever, TB, diphtheria, polio, rubella and chickenpox.

From: Mike in CT
04-Jan-22
"its amazing that a large group of people have been given shots, and they already had 99.9% chance of not getting covid bad anyway ... and we're being told "look how well the shot's have done !! ""

Actually this pales before the amazement one feels when examining posts that clearly indicate either an inability or an unwillingness to accept data that demonstrate a significant degree of effectiveness.

Let's try a simple exercise using BowSniper's 80% of the population being either asymptomatic or only mildly symptomatic. The current population of the US is 332,915,073 so the 20% that get moderate to severe disease would then be 66,583,015.

As the vaccines have consistently demonstrated efficacy in preventing severe disease of anywhere from 80 to 90% this would prevent severe disease in a population of somewhere between 53,266,412 to 62,253,864.

When one looks at the states hospitalization and mortality figures I've posted (I believe from about 9 states) it's inconceivable that anyone could advance the argument that the vaccines haven't been effective.

Unless one lives in a world where presenting severe disease in 53,266,412 to 62,253,864 isn't considered a success.

The world hasn't seen this many closed minds since the Spanish Inquisition.....

From: azelkhntr
04-Jan-22
Mike in CT04-Jan-22Private Reply MIKE IN CT'S LINK "Draw your own conclusions." This one's easy; it's more of the usual nonsense you post and only solidifies the lack of relevancy you rightly are given.

Seek help.....

\\ Good gravy mikey you responded so rapidly that there's is no possible way you could have watched the video and digested its impact. However, once again you would rather attack me then the message itself. Biased much?

From: bigeasygator
04-Jan-22

bigeasygator's Link
Super credible dude you posted there, azelkhuntr.

From: Mike in CT
04-Jan-22
"\\ Good gravy mikey you responded so rapidly that there's is no possible way you could have watched the video and digested its impact. However, once again you would rather attack me then the message itself."

Let me put in terms so simply you may even get it; when your video contains information that has been debunked more times than Hillary Clinton has been caught lying it's a waste of time to go beyond that point. As to it's "impact", the waste product of an ant would produce a greater impact.

As to "digest it's impact"; it doesn't take long to digest nothing.

"Biased much?"

Against valid information, never, even when it's contrary to what I believe at the time. When it's demonstrably false absolutely. I have no patience for you or anyone who evidently exists only to see how many chains they can pull. Even a bare bones review of what you post should clearly show it offers nothing of value.

If your elk hunting skills mirror your skills at obtaining and digesting valid information I think you'd struggle to take an elk at a petting zoo.

04-Jan-22
If the internet were around back then, maybe 40,000 children wouldn't have contracted polio when 200,000 doses of vaccine contained active virus by mistake (Cutter incident).

Who knows?

From: azelkhntr
04-Jan-22
My Taber's 14th ED. defines the function of a vaccine. "To stimulate the development of specific defensive mechanisms in the body which result in more or less permanent protection against a disease. An attack of smallpox or diptheria for example, usually leaves the recovered patient permanently immune to those diseases. As a result of infection, the body succeeds in building up its own defenses so that a new infection causes no illness. A successful vaccine does the same thing without a risk of illness." By this very definition the experimental drugs being pushed as "vaccines" most definitively are not. That brings me around to the language that was and is still employed by the pushers of these products. They never used definitives to describe them. Never the vaccines; can, will, does etc. It's always; may, might, probably, possibly, should, could etc. Did anyone else notice this? As far as hydrogel nanoparticle and robots being created as injectables into the body to perform specific tasks; yes that's a real world thing and is being actively pursued and already deployed.

04-Jan-22
"Good gravy mikey you responded so rapidly that there's is no possible way you could have watched the video and digested its impact."

i watched the whole thing and i regret it greatly. that is 8:12 of my life that I will never get back. that dude is nuts and if you believe him so are you.

From: Mike in CT
04-Jan-22
"By this very definition the experimental drugs being pushed as "vaccines" most definitively are not."

A)The mRNA vaccines are not "drugs" and they are most definitely vaccines by every accepted metric. B)Earlier in this thread (I believe) I posted about vaccines that produce sterilizing immunity and listed vaccines such as the Rotavirus vaccine and Influenza vaccine that do not.

Google is only as good as the person attempting to glean information; if the person doing the search is looking only to valid a bias they generally tend to search only for confirmation of their bias and exclude contradictory information.

You're starting to prompt a comparison to AOC; it seems every day she likes to play "can you top this" with herself and it's making a statement so monumentally ignorant it defies belief.

Given the plethora of verifiable facts posted by many posters on this thread that you continue to spew demonstrably false posts lends credence to my assessment that your purpose here is not to engage in productive discussion but to jerk people's chains.

Given the gravity of the topic that's particularly sad.

From: spike78
04-Jan-22

spike78's Link
Since you all like studies here is one on the risk/reward of being vaccinated.

04-Jan-22
"Since you all like studies here is one on the risk/reward of being vaccinated."

hasnt that study been retracted?

From: stealthycat
05-Jan-22
Mike in CT

again, you're trying to count people who wasn't going to get covid bad anyway

its like taking 1000 people and trying to keep them from wrecking their cars ...., having them wear orange shirts, and then a week later saying hey, wearing orange shirts are 99% effective at preventing them from being in major car accidents !

what you didn't also factor in was that 200 of them are kids and don't drive, and 200 of them are in nursing homes and don't drive and 200 of them don't have cars to drive

but hey, wear orange shirts !

for covid "vaccine" stats, throw out everyone under 18 years old. they don't count because truthfully 99.99% of kids don't get covid bad anyway.

you know which age groups get covid right? how healthy vs unhealthy affects how bodies handle covid right ?

unless you compare vaccinated/unvaccinated that have pretty close to the same age/health metrics .... that's the only way to get a good handle on what's working and what isn't

more and more, everyday, shotted people are getting covid, everyday the "success" of the shots go downhill

05-Jan-22
The shots were more effective versus previous strains. The current Omni strain they are less effective for, but the consensus is that this strain is less a threat to life and being hospitalized. Omni and the other strains still exist, so how is being less effective against Omni a viable argument no to be vaccinated? Outside of the conspiracy theories please, explain it to me so it makes medical sense.

From: Mike in CT
05-Jan-22
"again, you're trying to count people who wasn't going to get covid bad anyway"

While you and others continue to post a 99.9% statistic that isn't accurate; the reality is that the aged and the high risk camps would have been hit much harder in terms of morbidity and mortality absent the vaccine; the evidence isn't strong for this statement it's overwhelming.

As to those getting "shotted" and getting COVID you're confusing infection with disease and as I've pointed this distinction out numerous times it's disheartening to see it continue to be echoed.

It isn't the efficacy of the vaccines that's going downhill, it's the ability of people to process data that is inarguable as to the efficacy of the vaccines. This level of denial has and will continue to cause ICU beds to be full and mortality to continue-both needlessly.

And no, this is not hyperbole the data says exactly this.

Data from WA from a week ago......unbelievable that people continue to refuse to accept what's plainly evident.....

https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/1600/coronavirus/data-tables/421-010-CasesInNotFullyVaccinated.pdf

And again, I can post the same picture from the other 49 states.....

From: bigeasygator
05-Jan-22

bigeasygator's Link
Building on Mike's post, here is some data showing death rates amongst different groups (vaxed, boosted, unvaxed, etc) for various countries. As Mike said, the data is overwhelming if you actually take the time to read it and know how to interpret it. Make sure you scroll down to see the actual data from a number of countries.

05-Jan-22

4nolz@work's embedded Photo
4nolz@work's embedded Photo
I got my booster this morning(3rd Moderna).The Nurse had covid August 20' then 2 shots and a booster and just recovered from covid and second time.Draw your own conclusions.

05-Jan-22
My conclusion is your nurse’s shots and natural immunity both failed, it happens, but it is rare. We will learn more on the ‘why’s with the passage of time as we glean more knowledge.

From: KSflatlander
05-Jan-22
“The Nurse had covid August 20' then 2 shots and a booster and just recovered from covid and second time.Draw your own conclusions.”

What does “recovered from Covid” mean? Does it mean she/he was asymptomatic or had mild symptoms, tested positive then quarantined or was she/he in ICU for 10 days?

Don’t draw your own conclusions based on one person’s anecdotal experience.

From: bigeasygator
05-Jan-22
What KSflatlander said. She's clearly not dead, so on that level the immunity worked. How severe were her symptoms? Was she in the hospital or ICU at all? If not, I'd argue the immunity she gained via vaccination and naturally via infection did its job in avoiding the most severe outcomes.

IMO the response to COVID from the government and private institutions is an effort to avoid two specific scenarios: (1) deaths in our most at risk populations (the elderly, the immunocompromised, those with other underlying risk factors like obesity) and (2) avoiding overwhelming our healthcare facilities (be they ERs or ICU beds). These are the outcomes that if left unchecked would constitute a full-blown healthcare disaster. And IMO those are the metrics we should be following the closest in terms of measuring how effective we're managing this disease. Yes, there are other metrics that are also important (case rates have an impact on the economy, case rates also are likely the biggest driver behind virus mutation), but I still think they are secondary to the above.

To that end, individuals who experience breakthrough infections or get COVID multiple times aren't a big deal if they aren't leading to deaths and they aren't impacting our healthcare facilities.

From: azelkhntr
05-Jan-22

azelkhntr's Link

From: Rut Nut
05-Jan-22
Just got an update from the medical director of the nursing home this morning. He proudly announced "no new positive cases as of this morning." I pointed out that the few remaining Negative vets were only swabbed yesterday afternoon and it is taking 4-5 days now to get results back from the PCR tests. The last one to come back positive was tested on 12/30 and results posted 5 days later on 1/3. His response "that's true".

Next, I asked if we(employees) are still required to test twice per week on the nursing home since most of the vets are now positive and almost all the staff have tested positive. He said "Absolutely- we need to continue testing." I asked why? If they are no longer requiring a negative test for return to work, then what is the use?(CDC Guidelines) He said well, the VA is using a bit different directive- if you are vaccinated but not boosted you need a negative test to return to work. Or if you are unvaccinated. Meanwhile I have been testing positive since 12/23 and have been back to work since 12/30.

I also got a copy of all my recent COVID tests and looked closely at the 2 results they have for me for 12/23. Apparently my result for 12/[email protected]:30 am was POSITIVE. But they also have a result listed for 12/[email protected]:38am that is NEGATIVE. There is no way that is possible, since I left the VA immediately after taking the PCR test at 10:30(as instructed). I was home by 11:30.

Just more examples of incompetence and contradiction by those in authority! And yet they can't seem to understand why we don;t trust anything they say now..........................................

From: spike78
05-Jan-22
Was just told by my cousin that her boss is in the ICU on a ventilator. I asked if she got the vaccine and the response was “and also the booster”.

From: Saphead
05-Jan-22
So many vaccinated in the hospital. I Just looked at Ontario numbers.

From: BowSniper
05-Jan-22
Chances of an unvaccinated person being hospitalized with Omicron? A couple percent, maybe less???

Chances of a double vaccinated plus booster person being hospitalized with Omicron? Even less, maybe a fraction of a percent??

Net difference... a couple percent at most. Bah.

From: Matt
05-Jan-22
Did you source that data somewhere or did you just make that up?

The linked article indicates the rate of “breakthrough hospitalization” (hospitalization of fully vaccinated individuals) is 14x less than being unvaccinated.

“ The risk of breakthrough infections more than quintupled on a rolling basis in December, while the risk of such hospitalizations nearly doubled; unvaccinated NYers are still getting infected at more than 6x the rate of vaccinated ones and hospitalized at 14x the rate of unvaccinated ones.”

The article also indicates the sheer number of hospitalizations in New York is at the highest point since May 2020 and is exceeding last year’s surge. If the implication of your post is that Omicron will result in fewer hospitalizations than Delta, early data is already suggesting otherwise.

“ More than 9,000 New Yorkers are now hospitalized with COVID-19, Gov. Kathy Hochul said Monday, surpassing the levels of January 2021's peak surge and reaching levels not seen since May 2020…”

05-Jan-22
BEG your link to that study is rife with donors such as Open Society Foundation founded by none other than George Soros and mostly funded by grant through Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation! Bias much!? LOL! You people harp on us all the time about bias this and discredited that and not peer reviewed this...shove it! All of your beloved scientists doctors and their studies are designed to push the vaccine by the likes of Gates and Soros and all their ilk. Good luck with that!!

From: bigeasygator
05-Jan-22
It is not a "study." It is literally a compilation of data that is publicly available from the various country level health institutions across the world. Tell me how the data is wrong please?

From: azelkhntr
05-Jan-22
"Breakthrough infections" is code for the shots never worked as advertised. But they are doing something to you.

From: timex
05-Jan-22

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo

From: Matt
05-Jan-22
‘"Breakthrough infections" is code for the shots never worked as advertised.’

It is a criticism of the vaccines for failing at something they were not designed or intended to do in the first place, by someone who should know that by now but doesn’t care because it interferes with their misinformation campaign.

From: Hackbow
05-Jan-22

From: Recurve Man
05-Jan-22

From: spike78
05-Jan-22
All this time later and still no congressmen deaths interesting.

From: BowSniper
05-Jan-22
Omicron is mild and spreading fast. Look up how many active covid infections in the US today - apx 15 million. Look up how many total people hospitalized - CNN has it now breaking 100k. Do the math.... 0.7% of active cases are hospitalized.

Stop with the frantic 14x more without total context of numbers. Heck if it's 1 person vs 14 people, yeah that's 14x more.... and meaningless.

Millions and millions of people have covid. You would have to screen for antibodies and count home test kits to REALLY know what percent are hospitalized. It's a tiny fraction of a percent for Omicron. Relax. Take your sniffles and sore throat like a man, and we'll all (at least 99.7%) get through this.

From: BowSniper
05-Jan-22
* duplicate *

From: elkmtngear
05-Jan-22
It's also flu Season, and RSV is going around. Hospitals are SUPPOSED to be full right now, and the fact that this mostly non-lethal variant has spread like wildfire, means that yes, people are getting admitted to the Hospital WITH Covid.

But, never let logic delegitimize a crisis! Maximum fear factor must be maintained!!

From: bigeasygator
05-Jan-22
But, never let logic delegitimize a crisis! Maximum fear factor must be maintained!!

Who is afraid? Who is calling the current wave a crisis? I hear most people calling the current wave a bit of a blessing and many feel like this will be the last big wave before we move into more of an endemic situation. As of now, Omicron has not caused the issues Delta had. I do see why the case rate is alarming, and understand how that could be a leading indicator for worse things to come, but so far we aren’t seeing it and I haven’t really seen any significant measures taken by the government (shutdowns, etc), locally or nationally, in response to Omicron.

Still doesn’t change the data on vaccine safety and effectiveness, which some people still want to argue about.

From: spike78
05-Jan-22
The vaccines are safe except to the unlucky bastards that died from them or have serious complications. Whether it is 100, 1000, or 10,000 and THAT cannot be debated.

From: elkmtngear
05-Jan-22
"Who is afraid"?

BEG, look at the front page on CNN right now

"Arizona Siblings lose both Parents to Covid 19, in less than 48 hours". https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/05/us/coronavirus-parents-die-within-48-hours-trnd/index.html

Leftist media sources refuse to let up on the fearmongering, even though it looks like we are headed toward herd immunity. The article admits that though the Parents were unvaccinated, they were not healthy, and had multiple co-morbidities.

No stories of hope ever seem to make the headlines anymore. And, I'm sure there were dozens of fully vaccinated casualties (older folks, with co-morbidities), that they could have easily used for "impact"...but, you'll never hear about those (we have had several over the last few months, in my Hometown). I guess you would call those "breakthrough deaths"?

From: Fuzzy
06-Jan-22
Mike in Ct thanks, that's a great suggestion and led me to some good info (exactly what I was trying to do with my post). there's never such thing as being TOO informed we just have to be careful to winnow the chaff and try to slow the "spin" that tends to be imparted from second and third hand sharing of info.

I've definitely heard of Polio, too young to remember it but young enough to remember being immunized and young enough to have known several permanently affected.

By the way on the subject of Polio, Wytheville VA was one of the hardest hit towns in the Country during the "summer without children" outbreak. There is a strong social memory here (I live close to Wytheville) and the 2020/2021 COVID response was taken very seriously by residents.

I'm definately not anti-vaccine, in fact I got vacced myself when I felt comfortable doing so. I also chose to have the vaccine administered by my dear friends, the clinic staff at the local Health Department where I worked up until the outbreak.

I've never been against safe, effective vaccines of any kind and although I've been outspokenly critical of some of the COVID response methods and spoke strongly against the panic-mongering and ploiticizing of the issue, I think overall the US has responded pretty well. My suggestion for researching the budgetary significance of vaccines was not a criticism of vaccines as such, or the past successes of the Public Health system, but rather sharing a bit of concern that I have about how income-driven publicly funded Health agencies have become. I worked in Public Health for 33 years and saw a strong shift away from the profit-independent system that beat polio and toward a model that more resembles a profit-driven private system.

Matt I also enjoyed the juxtaposition of statements you mentioned. Sometimes the best comedy one liners aren't uttered as comedy.

06-Jan-22
The at-home rapid antigen tests pretty commonly have false negatives until a few days into being infected. I know everyone is wanting more tests available but since these don't work great at the most important time to know, its not a big deal to me.

From: gberb
06-Jan-22
How sad is it that people find the need to argue about Vaccines on a internet bow site. I guess helping someone with a bow related question must get old after a while. Or, there are just more people with extremely unhappy lives out there than we realize..

06-Jan-22
Paul,

A) I hope you are OK and recover fast if the positive test turns into anything more, and B) I hope they pay you while you are off. I know you do not like handouts, but IMHO it is only fair to compensate people who are willing to work but policy prevents them from doing so.

gberb, shhh! We got to get this to 700;-)

From: azelkhntr
06-Jan-22
News flash. The first "reported" case of H5N1 in a human has just been announced in Great Britain. I probably wouldn't want to be water fowl hunting this year.

From: gberb
06-Jan-22
I'm just hoping the Alien DNA I was injected with came from a Predator type being and not one like Mork........... (joke)

From: Orion
06-Jan-22
One of the front page stories on MSN. Pretty sure a lot of us have been saying this for over two years now. I'm curious why they only mention the new variant though?

?? What we're reading: As common as cloth face masks have become, health experts say that they do little to prevent tiny virus particles from getting into your nose or mouth and aren't effective against the new coronavirus variant. USA TODAY's Gabriela Miranda explains.

From: spike78
06-Jan-22
Yup H1N1 and now a new Corona variant discovered in France keep it going.

From: bigeasygator
06-Jan-22

bigeasygator's Link
I feel like this guy continues to bring a balanced, sensible view to the conversation. I think it’s a really good run through of what’s going on with Omicron and what to expect going forward.

06-Jan-22
Fauci needs to go just because he is an ineffective messenger anymore. His credibility is shot and there is no coming back from it.

07-Jan-22

walking buffalo's Link
I feel that this guy brings a balanced, sensible view to the conversation.

From: BowSniper
07-Jan-22

BowSniper's Link
The Double Vax needed booster which needs another booster (shot #4) Can we at least agree to call it the "Boo-Booster"?? ??

From: Hackbow
07-Jan-22
BEG - I've seen that guy before and while he seems somewhat reasonable, he's got to be a lunatic for choosing to live, and raise his children, in Sodom & Gomorrah. Therefore, his views are highly suspect. ;o)

He just affirmed what the vast majority of us anti-behavioral control device, anti-indoctrination inoculation mandaters have been saying. Paraphrasing: 'A virus will be a virus and do virus things. Shutting things down is dumb. Getting jabbed is probably good for the individual but means nothing for the broader group.'

You guys that trust the govt to wipe your arses have been picking fights with a handful of folks who push your buttons and have lumped in those of us who agree with your example doc. Maybe, if every medical professional that doesn't have their nose shoved up Fauci's backside wasn't systematically canceled by SM, MSM and govt mouthpieces, there would be a more balanced public conversation. Maybe.

But big gov guys can't stand individuals choosing for themselves. So here we are.

07-Jan-22
700!

From: Hackbow
07-Jan-22
Well Frank, yours is 701, so what do I win? Toaster, set of steak knives, free jab?

07-Jan-22
Darren,

You earn our respect, how's that?

From: azelkhntr
07-Jan-22
Hackbow nails it. God bless Texas! As far as the SCOTUS ruling goes; it won't impact me at all. I remain unmasked, untested, unx-vaxd and unapologetic for all of it. These knees will only bend to GOD and the SON and never to a man.

07-Jan-22
From what I can tell from pieces of the SCOTUS stuff today, some are trying to decide if the mandates are legal and some just like them because they think they are a good idea. I'm not a judge or lawyer but I'm pretty sure the latter didn't read the job description.

From: Hackbow
07-Jan-22
Appreciate that Frank. I really wanted a toaster, but respect will do.

Thanks az....the master debaters on the left simply will not acknowledge the fact that Big Bro and its minions are evil and hellbent on destroying the Republic. They are so insecure about their own intelligence, abilities and desires, they willingly subjugate themselves to the STATE. And to prove that serfdom is better than freedom, they do their level best to thwart or harm those rebellious souls daring to stand on their own two feet.

From: spike78
07-Jan-22
I can’t see any harm in a 4th booster. Might as well make it 10.

07-Jan-22
"I can’t see any harm in a 4th booster."

just like we got for polio, diphtheria, tetanus, & pertussis?

From: Grey Ghost
07-Jan-22

From: Grey Ghost
07-Jan-22

From: Old Bow
08-Jan-22

 Old Bow 's embedded Photo
 Old Bow 's embedded Photo
4th Booster for the profit

08-Jan-22

Glunt@work's embedded Photo
Glunt@work's embedded Photo
Stay strong, keep going. Team red finished a while ago, but you will get there.

From: Old Bow
08-Jan-22
Pfizer “Thank you Tax Payer’s “

From: Old Bow
08-Jan-22

 Old Bow 's embedded Photo
 Old Bow 's embedded Photo
It’s free

08-Jan-22
never thought id see so many people bitch about a private company making a profit. especially one that is helping all of humanity. how much is each person that didnt get severely ill...have to go to a hospital... or even die worth? amazon profit for 2021 was about 110 billion. thats about 8 times more than pfizer. are they evil too?

From: Matt
08-Jan-22
But it is a government conspiracy, with Pfizer, Biden, Bill Gates and probably the Rothchilds all covertly working together to chip us and destroy our immune systems so we will forever be dependent on them. What an annuity stream. If you don't believe me, I have a YouTube video and a pretty bar chart with no citations I can show you that will prove it to any reasonable adult non-democrat.

From: Matt-6
08-Jan-22
Yep, cnn is facts as well lol

08-Jan-22
Most of the stuff I buy from Amazon I can return if it doesn't work.

From: Tiogacruiser
08-Jan-22
Not sure how many boosters it will take before some start to open their eyes and realize that the vaccine isn't working. Sure they tell you that you won't get as sick, but they also started by saying if you got the jab you couldn't get the rona. If Fauci's or Biden's lips are moving they are lying. Get over the fear and get back to living.

From: Knifeman
08-Jan-22
"never thought id see so many people bitch about a private company making a profit." Never thought I'd see so many liberals love a drug company, and big pharma. They used to be your evil boogeyman, now they are saving humanity, what a freakin joke.

08-Jan-22
I just read a story by NPR(hardly conservative) that the vaccine is only 30% effective in preventing the Omicron variant? (I know I know milder symptoms).30%? is that true?

From: Matt-6
08-Jan-22
Corporations have seduced the political left by subscribing to the religion of wokeism. When the political left was critical of big Pharma, that was the one thing they were actually right about. The people that run these corporations will use whichever side of politics is needed at the time.

08-Jan-22
Its ok. If we ever get control back, the plan is to mandate you can only eat GMO fruits and veggies or you can't have a job, travel or put your kids in school. The exemption is writing out the definition of "irony" 500 times weekly.

From: Matt
08-Jan-22
“Not sure how many boosters it will take before some start to open their eyes and realize that the vaccine isn't working. Sure they tell you that you won't get as sick, but they also started by saying if you got the jab you couldn't get the rona.”

No, the vaccines are well-demonstrated to do a very good job at preventing severe disease and hospitalization. People who just listen to talking heads and don’t do their own research bought into the notion that the vaccines were supposed to prevent infection, but that was never their purpose.

08-Jan-22
90%-95% efficacy against clinically recognizable disease was the claim from the scientists and experts who invented it, tested it, approved it, and rolled it out. Not just from obvious terrible sources like Biden or Rachael Maddow. No, it wasn't intended to prevent testing positive for infection, meaning you have some SARS-CoV-2 in your nose, but it was absolutely sold on being very effective against getting Covid as well as effective at preventing serious illness.

From: Matt
08-Jan-22
“ 90%-95% efficacy against clinically recognizable disease was the claim from the scientists and experts who invented it, tested it, approved it, and rolled it out. Not just from obvious terrible sources like Biden or Rachael Maddow. No, it wasn't intended to prevent testing positive for infection, meaning you have some SARS-CoV-2 in your nose, but it was absolutely sold on being very effective against getting Covid as well as effective at preventing serious illness.”

Not exactly true from a chronological perspective but then again revisionist history is the best kind - right?

The vaccines were approved under EUA in 12/20 or thereabouts based on their ability to prevent severe disease. It was only after the vaccine had been deployed that it was studies to determine if it prevented infection against the original strain (4/21 or so). Not only did the vaccines do a good job against the original strain in terms of severe disease but also infections.

But It’s a coronavirus, it mutates.

When we saw the Delta variant, we started to see “breakthrough infections”. With Omicron, they became even more common regardless of natural or vaccine-based immunity unless you’ve recently had a booster.

Folks who are criticizing the vaccines for not providing protection from infection either haven’t been following along or have bought into the the rhetoric of those who they think are liars (Biden and Fauci). Who do you blame there?

08-Jan-22
"...the notion that the vaccines were supposed to prevent infection, but that was never their purpose."

"Never" includes when they were invented and introduced. Variants, real-world sample groups, seasonal fluxuations change things. Just explaining that people expected higher efficacy against getting Covid because they were told to expect it by the people who they are also told to trust. Combine that with the normal accepted understanding of a vaccine regular people have had for decades and it's not surprising many were disappointed. I wasn't. I'm somewhere around day 5-7 of cooking up my own immunity thanks to my very own unsurprising "breakthrough" case.

From: Mike in CT
09-Jan-22

Mike in CT's Link
"Not sure how many boosters it will take before some start to open their eyes and realize that the vaccine isn't working."

It doesn't require open eyes to continue to repeat that line, just a closed mind and an ignorance of the history and even present reality of vaccines.

Link provided to show other vaccines that "aren't working".....and here are a few examples:

DTaP – The diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis vaccine requiresfive doses. The first four are recommended at 2 months, 4 months, 6 months, and between 15 and 18 months old. Hib – Depending on the manufacturer of the vaccine, your child may need three or four doses of the haemophilus influenzae type b vaccine. If three doses are needed, shots are given at 2 months, 4 months, and between 12 and 15 months old. If four doses are needed, kids also receive a dose at 6 months old. PCV – The pneumococcal vaccine is a series of four doses taking place at 2 months, 4 months, 6 months, and between 12 and 15 months old. IPV – The poliovirus vaccine is another four-dose series. The first three are recommended at 2 months, 4 months, and between 6 and 18 months old.

From: Mike in CT
09-Jan-22
" Combine that with the normal accepted understanding of a vaccine regular people have had for decades and it's not surprising many were disappointed.""

The problem with "normal accepted understanding of a vaccine" is that it's been wrong and obviously from responses here and on other forums continues to be.

We know for a fact that not all vaccines produce sterilizing immunity (complete protection from infection); some examples of vaccines that don't provide that level of protection are vaccines for rotavirus, influenza, polio, measles and smallpox.

As the technology to detect a pathogen continues to improve it's possible we may find that we have no vaccines that produce sterilizing immunity. Infection can be defined by as little as a single virus invading a cell and beginning the process of replication.

When we look over the past year at ICU bed occupancy and mortality and see those statistics skew in the 80-95% range towards the unvaccinated population it's almost unfathomable that we still have a strident camp insisting that the COVID vaccines have been a failure.

I use the qualifier "almost" as I've learned over the years that it is unwise to ever underestimate people's ability to let perception trump reality.

09-Jan-22
"The problem with "normal accepted understanding of a vaccine" is that it's been wrong and obviously from responses here and on other forums continues to be."

I'm not surprised at all that people have that understanding of vaccines. Not just on these forums. Take a poll anytime before 2020 around the world and most people would answer that way. It's an obvious perception when your chances of getting small pox, measles, rubella, etc are so close to zero when you are fully vaxxed.

Yes it would be great if everyone researched enough to know that's not how it's going to work with this and to have a better understanding that the 95% efficacy against the disease (not just infection) shouldn't have been banked on.

Better messaging from experts and leaders would have been great too.

09-Jan-22
^^^^. Bingo ^^^^

We can debate this forever. But, the reality that the vaccine has been improperly defined by the CDC for years, changed once into this, and misunderstood by everyone that hasn’t done hours and days of their own research concerning past and current current vaccinations, is a REAL and understandable problem.

You don’t ask a plumber to be a brain surgeon. Why would anyone expect the common person to be capable of researching through the policy and practices of this debacle to claim bs on anything concerning Covid 19? It’s just not the way the world works. We all know that. And, stating differently only weakens the perceived intent of trying to get the whole country vaccinated.

It’s a don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining kind of thing for most people pointing out the debacle we now know as Covid 19. It’s solely this way due to politics. And, the reality that the media blew this thing through the roof manicuring the political left’s image.

To be confused by that is a testament of ignorance. People have been ridiculed and ostracized for decades if they didn’t adopt the norm concerning any subject defined by government policy. This is no different.

09-Jan-22
Justin,

I can agree with most of your premise, but how many times can it be explained by a person, people, with the proper knowledge before the ideologues accept the facts over pushing their agenda?

09-Jan-22
I agree. While Mike has/does tell us the facts, not everyone believes him or, even cares to believe him. It’s not his fault. It just happens the misleading has adapted bits and pieces of the reality of Covid 19, to further their cause. Even though that doesn’t make reality false, it sure prevents open minds and a willingness to compromise for a lot of people.

We are so close to pretty much everyone in this country having the shot or the virus at this point, people are awakening to the fact that the vaccine isn’t what they’ve been told by those that are supposed to be telling the whole truth. Not just the political picking and choosing that was/is still going on.

It’s just the reality of it.

From: Hackbow
09-Jan-22

Hackbow's Link
Glunt is correct: "Better messaging from experts and leaders would have been great too." The overseers continue to believe they cannot tell the truth to the ignorant masses because the truth is too difficult to handle for such simpletons, so they lie and manipulate in an effort to achieve their agendas.

I've posted about the information at this link before. However, no acknowledgement is forthcoming from our resident medical experts who are now finding great sport in being condescending to those who don't hang on their every word or 'trust the science' . Speaking of science, no less of a complete and absolute liar than Fauci claims HE 'represents science'.

So America's #1 Doc, The COVID Crusader himself, announces that he represents science and we know him to be a liar in HUGE things ('I don't know nuttin' 'bout no gain of function research.', masks work/don't work, one mask - two masks - cloth masks - screw masks, etc.). On top of that, Johns Hopkins research that shows medical malpractice/mistakes are the country's THIRD leading cause of death (pre-China Flu) yet CDC, JAMA, et al don't list it as such. Yet the average citizen is supposed to just blindly follow every mandate that comes down the pike from our inextricably linked gov/pharm/med/media cabal.

You want trust and respect as a whole? Earn it with honesty and competency.

From: Hackbow
09-Jan-22
Justin, guess I was typing while you were. Same thoughts.

Frank, "...but how many times can it be explained by a person, people, with the proper knowledge before the ideologues accept the facts over pushing their agenda?"

That is certainly a valid point. The same can be said about people who deny that a baby is a life at (___) weeks, that DNA doesn't define male & female, that when we subsidize something we get more of it, that more guns equal less crime, and on and on. The fact that some very well-meaning medical professionals can't be heard is due to the deafening roar of their peers who will use any crisis available to achieve their agenda. The folks who don't want the indoctrination inoculations don't have an agenda - they simply want to make their own decisions.

From: Rocky D
09-Jan-22
“ 1. Rochester, Minn.-based Mayo Clinic will fire about 1 percent of its 73,000-person workforce because of noncompliance with the health system's required COVID-19 vaccination program, according to a statement shared with Becker's. To be compliant, employees who were not granted an exemption had to receive by Jan. 3 at least one vaccine dose and not be overdue for a second shot, for Moderna and Pfizer.”

These health care workers only add to the chaos. Over 700 trained professionals choosing to not comply to the point of getting fired only creates more doubt in the non vaxers and their decision on getting vaccinated!

Albeit, the number is small but large enough to confound and confuse those that already have negative thoughts about the vaccine.

Then you have Dr. Oz and many others like him in the medical field say that the Biden administration mishandled the pandemic which means to them that the vaccine and mandates have been mishandled!

Why wouldn’t the average American have some form of doubt? Oh by the way, why should they accept the few health care workers on this thread regardless of the information that they provide?

Pro vaxers should not expect people to just conform and get the vaccine without being actively engaged in a decision about their health! Especially, when there has been so much conflicting misinformation!

09-Jan-22
Darren,

Scares me to say, lol, but we agree on everything you specifically mentioned. I adhere to my Catholic teachings on human life, my limited biology has me believe there should be one of two genders on a birth certificate, pro-gun, way more than most, (carry every where including campus and my students are aware of it) and yes incentives create behavioral responses and should only be used generally speaking when the benefits outweigh the costs at a minimum.

From: Hackbow
09-Jan-22
Too funny Frank. It is for these reasons, and a handful of other core issues, that I will not trust those in charge when they openly act against actual facts by creating mandates and policies that fly in the face of truth.

From: bigeasygator
09-Jan-22
Looks like we still can’t get past pandemic 101. Let’s (again) clarify a few things:

Virus - Viruses are very tiny germs. They are made of genetic material inside of a protein coating. Viruses cause familiar infectious diseases such as the common cold, flu and warts. They also cause severe illnesses such as AIDS, Ebola, and COVID-19.

Infection - a proliferation (ie, replication) of viruses within a body. This infection may or may not cause an actual disease.

SARS-CoV-2 - SARS-CoV-2 stands for severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2. This is a coronavirus discovered in 2019 that causes the disease COVID-19.

Variants - As genetic changes to the virus happen over time, the SARS-CoV-2 virus begins to form genetic lineages. Just as a family has a family tree, the SARS-CoV-2 virus can be similarly mapped out. Sometimes branches of that tree have different attributes that change how fast the virus spreads, or the severity of illness it causes, or the effectiveness of treatments against it. Scientists call the viruses with these changes “variants”. They are still SARS-CoV-2, but may act differently. The Omicron variant appears this far to spread extremely fast, causes more infection, but also leads to much less severe disease (see below).

COVID-19 - COVID-19 (coronavirus disease 2019) is a disease caused by the virus named SARS-CoV-2. COVID-19 most often causes respiratory symptoms that can feel much like a cold, a flu, or pneumonia. COVID-19 may attack more than your lungs and respiratory system.

Vaccine - A preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases. Vaccines are never 100% effective in causing infection. The immune response generated also varies from vaccine to vaccine.

Immunity - Clinically speaking, immunity is the ability of the body to defend itself from 'foreign bodies'. The extent to which the body is able to defend itself varies based on the type of immunity and the type of foreign body being defended against. While some immunity is able to prevent infection, some simply defends against the most severe outcomes related to a foreign body. Immunity allows the body to become more resistant to infection and/or disease, it doesn’t necessarily make you disease and/or infection proof.

You can take what Mike said and expand it. The problem with "normal accepted understanding of a (fill in any of the above aspects of the pandemic)" is that it's been wrong and obviously from responses here and on other forums continues to be. As he also said, it doesn't require open eyes to continue to repeat these falsehoods as the truth is easy to find and has been out there since day one - rather, these are the fruits of a closed mind and an ignorance. These are borne from the minds of people who’d rather not do the research, but instead parrot whatever partisan BS is coming across their social media feeds and favorite biased fake news sources.

From: Grey Ghost
09-Jan-22
"Oh by the way, why should they accept the few health care workers on this thread regardless of the information that they provide?"

Well, in the case of Mike in CT, he's made a 30 career studying and consulting about infectious diseases. He's forgotten more about virology than most of us will ever know. He's also one of the most respected members here, a strong Christian and family man, politically conservative, and a good bow hunter. I can assure you Mike has no alternative motive to advocate for the vaccines, other than in the interest of public health and accuracy of information. He consistently provides the truth about this pandemic, and supports it with verifiable and undeniable facts. He hasn't made a single post that anyone has successfully disputed with a well-informed argument. I don't know about you, but those are credentials I can trust.

Matt

09-Jan-22
We have long way to go. John Q Public googles "Covid cases US" and sees 59 million so far and assumes that means there have really been that many who had Covid. Few click farther to see that's positive tests for the virus not actual cases.

From: Hackbow
09-Jan-22
BEG & GG,

I won't speak for anyone but myself, but it's not about medical definitions or Mike's credibility. After his many years of posting here, one would be foolish not to trust his word and opinion. The issue is the POLICIES that surround this debacle. BEG, even your example doc in the video you posted said the same. But the unvaccinated are still being treated as pariahs by an agenda-driven govt/big pharm/med/media cabal that DOES lie to the public regularly and their unholy alliance is making them LOTS of money.

Honest, effective leaders gain followers. Heavy-handed dictators create rebels.

09-Jan-22
I think about everyone here agrees someone like Mike being in charge of national messaging would have been a good thing.

From: bigeasygator
09-Jan-22
The issue is the POLICIES that surround this debacle.

I don’t disagree. With that said, it is not just about policy. There is loads and loads of misinformation and falsehoods about the science associated with various aspects of this pandemic. From what constitutes a vaccine, to vaccine safety and efficacy, to what immunity actually means.

I have plenty of issues with the policy surrounding this disease. With that said, I think those policies are (1) genuinely a response to avoid what could be a public health disaster and (2) speak to the general ineffectiveness of large bureaucratic institutions to manage these things. I don’t envy their position, and in many ways it’s a lose lose proposition.

This, however, deviates from the conspiracy minded amongst us that think this policy is somehow a play to grab power or institute some level of control on the population. I’ve noticed that there is an extraordinarily high correlation between the people that think in this way and those that continue to misrepresent and misunderstand the science behind the pandemic.

09-Jan-22
Yep. But, Reading comprehension is short on some lists. But, let’s not stick to the subject of the conversation. Let’s impregnate it with a rambling post defining the issue that is NOT lost on anyone.

Some people just like to make up their own minds. I know that gets lost on a computer screen. And, unless those demanding the vax for all, has agreed to take financial and legal responsibility for side affects caused by the shot, shutting their pie hole is the only prudent action available.

Oh the horror. Freedom to face a novel cold type virus without a mandated vaccine will be the end of the world.

09-Jan-22
Its on every side. Sotomayor is making a giant decision on policy and doesn't know some basic facts. People of that stature putting out wrong info doesn't help.

From: Hackbow
09-Jan-22
"This, however, deviates from the conspiracy minded amongst us that think this policy is somehow a play to grab power or institute some level of control on the population. I’ve noticed that there is an extraordinarily high correlation between the people that think in this way and those that continue to misrepresent and misunderstand the science behind the pandemic."

BS. The first days that this thing started showed our overseers shutting small businesses down and benevolently allowing large businesses to remain open. I said on day one I would grab an oar and row with the rest of the crew if we were all treated equally. But the small, generally independent-minded business owners were completely effed over while nearly every political party-contributing, big box brick and mortar, corporate entity had a banner year (now 2). The political response was to destroy small business, create chaos & fear and offer up 'loving' Big Brother solutions that would increase dependence on a centralized govt. If one doesn't see that, they are blind.

"You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before."

Rahm Emanuel

From: bigeasygator
09-Jan-22
BS. The first days that this thing started showed our overseers shutting small businesses down and benevolently allowing large businesses to remain open. I said on day one I would grab an oar and row with the rest of the crew if we were all treated equally. But the small, generally independent-minded business owners were completely effed over while nearly every political party-contributing, big box brick and mortar, corporate entity had a banner year (now 2).

And that’s BS. Far more small cap companies were kept alive by the SBA and PPP than large cap companies during the pandemic.

From: Old Bow
09-Jan-22
Ever since Covid 19 fear was introduced to our Country my gut feeling is the best medicine I have gotten to see through the BS .

From: Hackbow
09-Jan-22
"Far more small cap companies were kept alive by the SBA and PPP than large cap companies during the pandemic."

LOL.....hence your moniker BEGger. What small business owner defines success by letting big brother wipe his ass? As I wrote above, a centralized govt offering "up 'loving' Big Brother solutions that would increase dependence on a centralized govt." is the result of the chaos and fear they created.

There was no need for those programs if the overseers didn't shut down businesses. Just like your example doc pointed out. At least try to be intellectually consistent, even if you're wrong, BEGger.

From: Matt
09-Jan-22
“ I don’t disagree. With that said, it is not just about policy. There is loads and loads of misinformation and falsehoods about the science associated with various aspects of this pandemic. From what constitutes a vaccine, to vaccine safety and efficacy, to what immunity actually means.”

This, and the inability by so many to be able to separate science and politics which has resulted in the needless deaths of tens of thousands of Americans.

09-Jan-22
And needless loss of freedom and prosperity.

From: bigeasygator
09-Jan-22
At least try to be intellectually consistent, even if you're wrong, BEGger.

Pardon me? Please show me where I cast judgement, either for or against, government intervention during the pandemic.

I was merely pointing out your BS. No, there was no preferential treatment for big business. And the fact is that plenty more small businesses were kept alive by government intervention during the pandemic than large conversation. Should they have been? That’s a different conversation. But the facts of the matter fly in the face of your assertion that “small, generally independent-minded business owners were completely effed over.”

If anything, the big companies merely had more resources to weather the storm and were able to position themselves when things rebounded, leaving the small, poorly capitalized companies to flounder and fail. Not sure why you wouldn’t be celebrating this as an outcome of free markets, Hack? What was that about intellectual inconsistency??

From: Hackbow
09-Jan-22
"No, there was no preferential treatment for big business."

Talk about obtuse. Enjoy the rest of your day BEGger.

"And needless loss of freedom and prosperity." Glunt for yet another win.

From: Bou'bound
09-Jan-22
Where do,you find the time?

From: Matt-6
09-Jan-22

Matt-6's embedded Photo
Matt-6's embedded Photo

From: Bou'bound
09-Jan-22
Where do,you find the time?

09-Jan-22
"Where do,you find the time?"

Around day 7 of Covid for me. Don't feel like doing anything productive so just shopping parts online for a new AR build and checking in on Bowsite. I always checked "good at multitasking" on my job applications :^)

From: azelkhntr
09-Jan-22

azelkhntr's Link
Oops.

From: Rocky D
09-Jan-22
“ Well, in the case of Mike in CT, he's made a 30 career studying and consulting about infectious diseases. He's forgotten more about virology than most of us will ever know.”

GG, this not common knowledge for most. As for Mike, I don’t think that anyone is taking a single source as the definitive when it comes to the vaccine.

The problem is with all the other misinformation. I was just trying to establish that there is plenty of room for reasonable doubt!

Remember, I am fully vaxed so I am not referring to myself!

There’s far too much information for most to synthesize for the average guy. Actually, I am impressed with the amount of information that some of them has even tried to process.

From: bigeasygator
09-Jan-22

bigeasygator's Link
Oops

Rule number one of statistics: correlation is not causation.

Steve Kirsch needs to stick to tech and stop positing what is clearly a bevy of COVID related misinformation motivated by his own self-interest.

From: Rocky D
09-Jan-22
“ Well, in the case of Mike in CT, he's made a 30 career studying and consulting about infectious diseases. He's forgotten more about virology than most of us will ever know.”

GG, this not common knowledge for most. As for Mike, I don’t think that anyone is taking a single source as the definitive when it comes to the vaccine.

The problem is with all the other misinformation. I was just trying to establish that there is plenty of room for reasonable doubt!

Remember, I am fully vaxed so I am not referring to myself!

There’s far too much information for most to synthesize for the average guy. Actually, I am impressed with the amount of information that some of them has even tried to process.

From: Quinn @work
09-Jan-22
Glad to see Azelkhtr is still able to dig up documents daily on the World Wide Web that support his trolling ability. LOL.

From: Matt-6
09-Jan-22
I'm amazed at how many bowsiters are now worshipping at the altar of fauci, Biden, and cnn

From: Grey Ghost
09-Jan-22
"GG, this not common knowledge for most. "

I'm not sure why. I've mentioned it at least 6 times on these threads. Not only because Mike is a personal friend of mine, but mostly because he's too humble to toot his own horn. Believe me when I say that Mike is wicked smart. I learned that over 20 years ago when I challenged him on certain topics, and he handed my ass to me in a civil and respectful manner that almost made me enjoy it. I would NEVER doubt anything he's says about his chosen profession (virology). He is my go-to source for anything relating to covid and the vaccines. I highly recommend everyone to search for his posts and read them carefully. He's even humble enough to dumb down his explanations to make them easy for us laymen to understand.

As for "reasonable doubt" about the vaccines, I don't think there is any, if you have an open mind and the ability to think critically without political bias clouding your judgement. The evidence and truth is out there, but you have to wead thru the muck of confirmation bias to find it. That's where most fail, IMO.

I just don't see this as a Red Team versus Blue Team issue. Hopefully the SC will put an end to both team's attempts to make it one.

Stay healthy and happy, my friend.

Matt

From: Rocky D
09-Jan-22
GG, I will dumb this down for you! Obviously, there’s enough reasonable doubt or this thread would have been dead a long time ago and everyone would have gotten the vaccine. Including all the medical personnel that chose to not get the vaccine!

I have taken every vaccine as soon as I was eligible so it is not me that you have to convince.

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-22
Great post GG.

From: Grey Ghost
09-Jan-22
Rocky, this thread only confirms how confirmation bias clouds the judgment of many who aren't capable of unbiased information gathering. I'm confident you know that, but you're not willing to admit it.

Matt

From: bigeasygator
09-Jan-22
GG, I will dumb this down for you! Obviously, there’s enough reasonable doubt or this thread would have been dead a long time ago and everyone would have gotten the vaccine

“Reasonable doubt” is most certainly not the reason the misinformation persists.

From: Rocky D
09-Jan-22
GG, I will dumb this down for you! Obviously, there’s enough reasonable doubt or this thread would have been dead a long time ago and everyone would have gotten the vaccine. Including all the medical personnel that chose to not get the vaccine!

I have taken every vaccine as soon as I was eligible so it is not me that you have to convince.

From: Grey Ghost
09-Jan-22
Rocky, so your personal choice was to get the vaccine. But you side with those who don't. Funny that. Sounds like you're paying both sides of the fence to me..,

Matt

From: JL
09-Jan-22

JL's embedded Photo
JL's embedded Photo

JL's Link

This is interesting considering she was partying down with her boytoy in Mijammy.

"Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Published 1 hour ago Last Update 41 mins ago AOC tests positive for COVID-19 after partying in Miami maskless The positive test comes shortly after the congresswoman was seen without a mask in a Miami bar, according to video that circulated on social media

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., has tested positive for the coronavirus, according to a statement from her office on Sunday night.

According to a statement, the congresswoman is recovering from the virus at home and is experiencing symptoms. Ocasio-Cortez received her booster shot in the fall, according to the statement. "

From: Rocky D
09-Jan-22
GG, your two blue boys just joined the party. That is why it’s a red vs blue thing!

Confirmation bias works both ways and we do it subconsciously so don’t say that you are not affected by it.

Your bias has refused to allow you to acknowledge that Trump’s “warp speed” initiative to get a vaccine is probably the only thing that saved this country from absolute catastrophe!

The current egghead in office has proven repeatedly that he doesn’t possess the ability to lead his disaster of a family nevertheless this country through a pandemic!

News alert, the saga continues!

“Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., has tested positive for the coronavirus, according to a statement from her office on Sunday night.

According to a statement, the congresswoman is recovering from the virus at home and is experiencing symptoms. Ocasio-Cortez received her booster shot in the fall, according to the statement.”

From: Grey Ghost
09-Jan-22
Rocky, I supported Trump's warp speed program and still do. What's your point? You're goal post moving has become tiresome.

Matt.

From: Matt
09-Jan-22
"Obviously, there’s enough reasonable doubt or this thread would have been dead a long time ago..."

There is definitely room for reasonable doubt about certain aspects of the pandemic and the response, but much of what we see here is certain people continuing to post BS to call into question things that should not be controversial to anyone who has been following along with an open mind.

From: spike78
09-Jan-22
Update on my wife’s friends 86 year old father that went to ER due to numb leg. He is now on a vent and I guess his son ended up having the virus and gave it to him. Anyway he is currently a vaccinated statistic unfortunately.

From: spike78
09-Jan-22
On another note my wife has another friend that works in the ER and said 75% of the patients there in the ICU came in due to Covid. And yes most are unvaccinated but most are also either old or obese. Not just overweight but morbidly obese. One guy she is currently taking care of is an obese guy that has lost both his legs due to diabetes. Yes she has taken care of a few people in their 40’s that are healthy but most have other issues.

From: Matt
09-Jan-22
Sorry to hear about your friend's dad, that has to be tough for all involved.

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-22
Matt X2. Sorry to hear that.

From: Matt-6
10-Jan-22
"I would NEVER doubt anything he's says about his chosen profession (virology)."

Told us all we need to know about you, you're treating a human as a god. Anyone can be lied to and or manipulated, even Lord Mike from Connecticut. I'm not even saying he's wrong about any particular thing, but it's retarded to think it's impossible for him to be wrong on anything regarding viruses. Mike could be given bad data, big Pharma manipulates studies all the time. The CDC has literally demonstrated on multiple occasions that they cannot be trusted.

From: Nemophilist
10-Jan-22
http://indepthnh.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/COVID-Report-from-Rep.-Weyler-3.pdf

10-Jan-22
"Rocky, so your personal choice was to get the vaccine. But you side with those who don't. Funny that. Sounds like you're paying both sides of the fence to me.., Matt"

arent you doing the same?

From: BowSniper
10-Jan-22

BowSniper's Link
More and more the exaggerated media narrative about covid is being revealed. Now they are finally admitting that 40-50% of these "covid hospitalizations" are people who came in for something else and only happened to find covid during screening.

From: bigeasygator
10-Jan-22
http://indepthnh.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/COVID-Report-from-Rep.-Weyler-3.pdf

This is a hot pile of garbage. With that said, anyone else seeing the correlation between the COVID misinformation being put out and the people behind it? From the last two propaganda pieces posted by Nemo and azelkhuntr.

Dr. Vladimir Zelenko - Vladimir Zelenko is a Ukrainian-American family physician and author known for promoting a three drug combination of hydroxychloroquine, zinc sulfate and azithromycin as part of an experimental outpatient treatment for COVID-19 that he has promoted as the Zelenko Protocol.

Steve Kirsch - founded the COVID Early Treatment Fund which focused on repurposing existing medicines to combat COVID. He has been a vocal advocate of the use of hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, and fluvoxamine as early COVID treatments. He's refused to accept the results of his own hydroxychloroquine trial that showed the drug had no value in treating COVID.

Hmmmm

From: bigeasygator
10-Jan-22
More and more the exaggerated media narrative about covid is being revealed. Now they are finally admitting that 40-50% of these "covid hospitalizations" are people who came in for something else and only happened to find covid during screening.

Sorry, what's exaggerated? This is common news. I heard the same thing last week from Dr. Scott Gottlieb on CNBC. This is great news regarding the case counts being reported.

From: bigeasygator
10-Jan-22
"Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Published 1 hour ago Last Update 41 mins ago AOC tests positive for COVID-19 after partying in Miami maskless The positive test comes shortly after the congresswoman was seen without a mask in a Miami bar, according to video that circulated on social media

I'm confused by this "headline"...are you saying that she should have been wearing a mask and that she shouldn't be out partying? The article seems to imply these are what contributed to her getting COVID. I'm not really confused...just clear evidence that the spin goes both ways.

From: JL
10-Jan-22
I think the article is trying to make a dot connection to her supporting forced mandates and good for thee but not for me stance.

From: BowSniper
10-Jan-22
BEG - Exaggerated hospitalizations meaning newsheadlines screaming 'OMG get your vaccine and mask up because covid hospitalizations are so terribly high'..... when in fact "COVID hospitalizations" are 50% lower than being hyped in the media to push a specific pro-vax agenda.

I presume you already know that, and your response is just typical liberal word-spin game.... but figured best to be clear.

From: Knifeman
10-Jan-22
Watch the pivot, the goal posts will move again. They know that it will harm them in the upcoming elections, hence the "its common knowledge " argument will be showing up for all their lies and failures. The bowlibs will trumpet that, the demonrats will too, and the msm will follow. It all changes when they start to be damaged politically, watch how fast the pandemic disappears. But were supposed to take the vax brigade seriously.

From: bigeasygator
10-Jan-22
Exaggerated hospitalizations meaning newsheadlines screaming 'OMG get your vaccine and mask up because covid hospitalizations are so terribly high'

I think you all (ie, the group of people that think there is some gigantic conspiracy out there around COVID that, as best as I can tell, is involving the media, democrats, big business, pharmaceutical companies, etc) are trying to turn the Omicron wave into something it isn't.

These headlines you are referencing are essentially non-existent these days. Please post some that are saying essentially "Omicron related hospitalizations are high and we need more COVID controls". The only ones I've seen that remotely come close to that are locally driven where there may actually be isolated hospital capacity issues. We are not seeing the issues we saw with the Alpha variant prior to vaccine rollout nor are we seeing the issues we saw with the Delta variant regarding serious hospitalizations related to COVID with the ICU capacity being taken up as well as the deaths. We are staying the course in terms of keeping our businesses open and COVID related mitigation measures are continuing to relax.

Proof positive...you literally posted a story from the evil media backing this up (ie, most COVID hospital cases are incidental and not actually people showing up for COVID symptoms).

From: Dmac
10-Jan-22
Did not matter much in Australia. Courts say Djokavic can play tennis there.

Vaccine take it or leave it worldwide.

D

From: BowSniper
10-Jan-22
BEG - literally as we speak the Biden administration is pushing for forced vaccine mandates using the imagined power of OSHA. The Supreme Court Justice Sotomayor was just caught using exaggerated covid hospitilization statistics to promote this mandate.

From: BowSniper
10-Jan-22

BowSniper's Link
Here is the sample heading you denied exists... CNN citing exaggerated covid hospitalizations headlines, during Omicron wave, to push a pretermined partisan agenda.

From: BowSniper
10-Jan-22

BowSniper's Link
BEG thinks we are making this stuff up...

Reuters: "Omicron surge pushes US hospitalizations towards record high"

10-Jan-22
I believe the number of posts here exceed the number of deaths by Omicron in the U.S.

From: Hackbow
10-Jan-22
Bowsniper - don't you know that CNN and Reuters are digital grocery store gossip rags that over-sensationalize and cannot be taken to be BEG-style, serious, highbrow media sources? You simple minded peasant! ;o)

Frank - I'd wager you are correct by a long shot.

10-Jan-22
800

From: Hackbow
10-Jan-22
^Respect ;o)

From: azelkhntr
10-Jan-22

azelkhntr's Link
Lets hope this is misinformation.

From: Dmac
10-Jan-22
New data shows in most people that 10wks after Pfizer booster the efficacy averages about 35%. That is an average.

So after about 2 months give or take the vaccine is 65% ineffective.

That said, to tanked up on Covid antibodies you would need more than 6 per year to keep 50% antibody efficacy.

This is a non starter for the majority of the country.

Now, they next big question yet to be answered which NObody speaks to is: How long after original two jabs is a booster effective at all?

If we are going there and we are!! When does CDC say “After 6 months without boosters you need to repeat the entire Jab Sequence”! This is the next evolution by the government to maintain control using covid crisis.

D

From: LINK
10-Jan-22
It still doesn’t matter yet!

From: azelkhntr
10-Jan-22

azelkhntr's Link
And the truth will set US free. Always listen to the "eggspurts" right?

From: Dmac
10-Jan-22
Most people knew that from getgo.

Of or With Covid is huge difference. Said that a bunch !

D

From: bigeasygator
10-Jan-22
Here is the sample heading you denied exists... CNN citing exaggerated covid hospitalizations headlines, during Omicron wave, to push a pretermined partisan agenda.

I didn't "deny they existed." I said they are not carrying with them alarm that previous waves carried with them. COVID related hospitalizations and incidental COVID cases are both up amongst this age group. That does not constitute an emergency nor does it suggest we should change course and do anything different than what we are. Unlike the peak impacts caused by Alpha or Delta, we're fast approaching that and if you look at any of the news sites there is essentially zero prominence given to the current outbreak.

BEG thinks we are making this stuff up...

Do you even read the articles you post? My point is while COVID hospitalizations are up, many cases are incidental and the overall risk of severe outcomes are lower. There are isolated spots where the non-incidental spots are creating a strain, but Omicron seems to be far less severe and far less of a strain on the system than what variants like Delta caused. The article says as much.

"U.S. COVID hospitalizations approached 123,000, appearing poised to top the record above 132,000, according to the tally. Deaths, a lagging indicator, remain fairly steady at about 1,400 a day, well below last year's peak.

Hospitalization data, however, often does not differentiate between people admitted for COVID-19 and so-called incidental cases involving people who were admitted for other reasons and were found to be infected during routine testing.

In New York 42% of patients hospitalized with COVID-19 were in the incidental category, Governor Kathy Hochul told a briefing on Friday, a sign of how the data may not be giving the clearest picture of Omicron's impact in terms of severe disease.

While hospitalizations continue to rise in New York, Hochul and other state officials expressed optimism that the worst of the Omicron wave could pass in the coming days.

"We need a couple more days to be able to tell that it has peaked," said Dr. Mary Bassett, New York's acting Health Commissioner. "I think that we can expect a difficult January but that things should be much better by February."

From: spike78
10-Jan-22
Hmm Bob Saget dead 4 weeks after the booster? He seems like a healthy 65 year old let’s see the report.

10-Jan-22
Phizer says Omicron vaccine should be ready in March.

From: Mike in CT
10-Jan-22
"And the truth will set US free. Always listen to the "eggspurts" right?"

If there has been any one thing that has been consistently demonstrated during this pandemic is that for some the truth is predicated upon a pre-set bias and facts, however many and however overwhelming will not break down that bias.

The link you provided is simply a recirculation of an old misrepresentation of the data, conveniently framed to suggest something not aligned with medical reality. COD (Cause of death) is determined by clinical presentation, identification of a pathogen (or pathogens if infection present) and then autopsy. Co-morbidities are hardly a novel occurrence and have been both recognized and accounted for in reporting mortality statistics for longer than many have been posting, if not alive.

Cancer patients for example are at risk for infection owing to treatment regimens that can weaken their immune system and a good number of them wind up with an infection that progresses to sepsis which in their case is most often fatal. These patients COD's are not reported as "cancer" (though it was certainly a huge factor) but as sepsis, as this is what ultimately killed them.

I could list other clinical conditions or diseases with similar trajectories and the outcome would be the same here; those inclined to think as opposed to react would get it, those who have a predetermined perception (albeit aided by a deserved lack of trust in many public health entities) would simply dig in their heels and cling to the narrative of choice.

I read a piece late last week that was written by a well-respected infectious disease expert and he listed 6 things we need to get right before the next pandemic (and rest assured, there will be another); high on his list was the restoration of trust in entities like the CDC and the FDA. I agree with him completely on that score; that said, all the malfeasance, all the incompetence, all the lies told do not alter medical realities.

Lest anyone posit that the medical data presented by the CDC is another part of the conspiracy, the CDC merely reports the data compiled through the NDSS (National Disease Surveillance System). If anyone is interested in learning how absurd the notion that morbidity and mortality statistics have been "gamed" a quick review will reveal how ridiculous that notion is.

Those interested in the truth never settle for confirmatory information; they seek out information that challenges their position and test the evidence for their position. It's human nature to want to be right; it's a human failing to assume, absent evidence that we are.

From: BowSniper
10-Jan-22
BEG says - "These headlines you are referencing are essentially non-existent these days."

Show him the actual recent headlines....

BEG says - "I didn't deny they existed." Such is the mindset and quality of any liberal debate!!! LOL.

My argument was that contrary to continuing news headlines, covid hospitalizations are NOT near record highs. The numbers are being deliberately exaggerated to push the Biden vaccine mandate, as further evidenced by Justice Sotomayors remarks. Period.

If you want to parse words to claim the numbers are still "rising" my response is that they will also be falling. Rising and falling. Covid comes in waves. That's what waves do.

If you want to play word games and claim the increase is stressing the hospital system in some local areas, my response would be that so does firing workers that refuse a forced injection!!

This VERY mild omicron is being deliberately exaggerated to push the Biden vaccine mandate that is hanging on by a thread. And the fake news headlines and major liberal media (and forum liberals) are knowingly pushing fake news and playing word games to further their partisan agenda. THEY know it, and WE know it. It's never been more obvious....

10-Jan-22
Mike,

Fauci and others need to learn to communicate as effectively as you do! Thanks again.

From: azelkhntr
10-Jan-22

azelkhntr's Link
More BS I'm sure.

From: Dmac
10-Jan-22
Folks are done with the good doctor, done with CDCs very poor performance.

The tax payer has put billions into CDC just for such a Pandemic. They have performed as most Gvt entities. Stuck in-between politics, poor messaging and ideology bias’. Terrible waste of funds for what we got after all that money.

When mandates get stopped so will the great push for all to be Vaxd. Maybe a yearly jab but more than that, nah.

D

From: Old Bow
10-Jan-22
The Chinese are coming to Georgia university , probably basket weaving 101 , we have illegals by the thousands coming across the border with open arms . February is gonna be an eye opener for the ignorant liberals who vote Democrat.

11-Jan-22
"Rocky, so your personal choice was to get the vaccine. But you side with those who don't. Funny that. Sounds like you're paying both sides of the fence to me.., Matt"

arent you doing the same?

From: Dmac
11-Jan-22
Always been that way. Like a Ken doll with Barbie head on backwards.

Oooooh, i said Barbie and Ken Doll…..

Here come the Woke cops.

D

From: txhunter58
12-Jan-22
Bump

From: azelkhntr
12-Jan-22

azelkhntr's embedded Photo
azelkhntr's embedded Photo
All in good fun.

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