Jimmy John
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
Bowfreak 29-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 29-Dec-21
Dale06 29-Dec-21
drycreek 29-Dec-21
Junior 29-Dec-21
SteveB 29-Dec-21
DanaC 29-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 29-Dec-21
Jaquomo 29-Dec-21
BIGRICH 29-Dec-21
Corax_latrans 29-Dec-21
Surfbow 29-Dec-21
SIP 29-Dec-21
Bowfreak 29-Dec-21
stealthycat 29-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 29-Dec-21
Junior 29-Dec-21
Jaquomo 29-Dec-21
[email protected] 29-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 29-Dec-21
SDHNTR(home) 29-Dec-21
Jaquomo 29-Dec-21
SDHNTR(home) 29-Dec-21
SIP 29-Dec-21
Jaquomo 29-Dec-21
SIP 29-Dec-21
Quinn @work 29-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 29-Dec-21
sticksender 29-Dec-21
Bowfreak 29-Dec-21
Buffalo1 29-Dec-21
Huntiam 29-Dec-21
Huntiam 29-Dec-21
SIP 29-Dec-21
Corax_latrans 29-Dec-21
AZ8 29-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 29-Dec-21
Bou'bound 29-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 29-Dec-21
Bowfreak 29-Dec-21
Bowfreak 29-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 29-Dec-21
Bowfreak 29-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 29-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 29-Dec-21
Corax_latrans 29-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 29-Dec-21
Mark S 29-Dec-21
Zbone 29-Dec-21
Bowfreak 30-Dec-21
Rocky D 30-Dec-21
Rocky D 30-Dec-21
8point 30-Dec-21
Rocky D 30-Dec-21
Bou'bound 30-Dec-21
Venom16730 30-Dec-21
Huntiam 30-Dec-21
Huntiam 30-Dec-21
JL 30-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 30-Dec-21
DanaC 30-Dec-21
Jaquomo 30-Dec-21
DanaC 30-Dec-21
AZ8 30-Dec-21
Missouribreaks 30-Dec-21
JL 30-Dec-21
Grey Ghost 30-Dec-21
JL 30-Dec-21
AZ8 30-Dec-21
DanaC 31-Dec-21
bghunter 31-Dec-21
Ambush 31-Dec-21
Corax_latrans 31-Dec-21
Franzen 01-Jan-22
JL 01-Jan-22
Rocky D 01-Jan-22
8point 01-Jan-22
Dale06 01-Jan-22
Rocky D 01-Jan-22
LINK 01-Jan-22
Ambush 01-Jan-22
Bou'bound 01-Jan-22
SIP 01-Jan-22
Corax_latrans 01-Jan-22
APauls 01-Jan-22
azelkhntr 01-Jan-22
LINK 01-Jan-22
Jaquomo 01-Jan-22
Mark S 01-Jan-22
azelkhntr 01-Jan-22
Bou'bound 01-Jan-22
Rocky D 01-Jan-22
Rocky D 01-Jan-22
Rocky D 01-Jan-22
Jaquomo 01-Jan-22
Zbone 01-Jan-22
JL 01-Jan-22
Zbone 01-Jan-22
Zbone 01-Jan-22
tinecounter 01-Jan-22
Jaquomo 01-Jan-22
Jaquomo 01-Jan-22
azelkhntr 01-Jan-22
Zbone 01-Jan-22
Rocky D 01-Jan-22
Jaquomo 01-Jan-22
Ambush 02-Jan-22
Zbone 02-Jan-22
duvall 02-Jan-22
Corax_latrans 02-Jan-22
Ambush 02-Jan-22
Jaquomo 02-Jan-22
Corax_latrans 02-Jan-22
azelkhntr 02-Jan-22
DanaC 02-Jan-22
Junior 02-Jan-22
Bou'bound 02-Jan-22
Missouribreaks 02-Jan-22
LINK 02-Jan-22
Ambush 02-Jan-22
LINK 02-Jan-22
Mule Power 02-Jan-22
Ambush 02-Jan-22
Corax_latrans 02-Jan-22
Mule Power 02-Jan-22
Rocky D 02-Jan-22
Rocky D 02-Jan-22
PECO2 02-Jan-22
Jaquomo 02-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 02-Jan-22
Genesis 02-Jan-22
DanaC 02-Jan-22
AZ8 02-Jan-22
Ambush 02-Jan-22
JL 02-Jan-22
Jaquomo 02-Jan-22
Rocky D 02-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 02-Jan-22
Zbone 02-Jan-22
Ambush 02-Jan-22
Bou'bound 03-Jan-22
JL 03-Jan-22
JL 03-Jan-22
Junior 03-Jan-22
scndwfstlhntng 03-Jan-22
Ambush 03-Jan-22
SBH 03-Jan-22
Orion 07-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 07-Jan-22
MA-PAdeerslayer 07-Jan-22
APauls 07-Jan-22
deerhunter72 07-Jan-22
Dale06 07-Jan-22
Tilzbow 07-Jan-22
Orion 07-Jan-22
Bou'bound 07-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 07-Jan-22
From: Bowfreak
29-Dec-21
Is the guest on A bone to pick podcast with Michael Waddell. If you haven't listened it might change your tune on guys who have the ability to purchase governor's tags.

Spotters sitting with a bull for 10 days and then shooting it at 1,000 yards is not my thing but I can't hate on a guy that made his own way and chooses to hunt different than I do.

From: Grey Ghost
29-Dec-21
I respect the man's career accomplishments, but I have a hard time calling the way he killed that bull "hunting".

Matt

From: Dale06
29-Dec-21
I’m with Grey Ghost on this issue.

From: drycreek
29-Dec-21
I can only imagine what y’all are talking about but I’m against all “long range” shooting at live animals. Bows, crossbows, rifles, hell, even shotguns can all be stretched beyond ethical limits. I’m usually not the ethics police, but too much can go wrong with 80/100 yard bowshots and 700/1,000 yard rifle shots. I know there are guys who can pull it off IF EVERYTHING WORKS PERFECTLY, We’ve all made shots we had no business even trying, and when it works that ego is fit to bust. We try to forget about the few that didn’t work out, but best to forget them before the shot. My two cents.

From: Junior
29-Dec-21
I usually don't respond to the haters club, and I haven't watched this particular hunt. That said, there are definitely basins a guy cant access without blowing everything out, and the only way is the long shot. Either way, even if he killed it with a bow people would still hate and stir the pot.

From: SteveB
29-Dec-21
Not my thing either, but thrilled to have visible figures endorse the sport and contribute in various ways to its success.

From: DanaC
29-Dec-21
"Spotters sitting with a bull for 10 days..."

ummm. So he pays some guys to scout for him, for ten days, then he shows up and shoots. Killing? Yes. Sniping. Ok. Hunting? Bullsnot.

From: Grey Ghost
29-Dec-21
"I can only imagine what y’all are talking about"

I can explain. The founder of Jimmy John's Sandwiches paid $225K for a special "Governors tag" in AZ. The tag is not limited by season dates, location, or weapon. He hired a small army of scouts to locate and keep track of the biggest bull they could find. They camped out on the bull for several days until he shed his velvet. Then they hauled Jimmy's fat ass in on a mule to shoot it at 1000 yards. There were over 20 people involved in the post kill recovery and chores, while Jimmy sat and watched in the shade of a tarp that was hung for him.

Matt

From: Jaquomo
29-Dec-21
You guys shouldn't comment unless you've watched the video. The only two things good about this episode are that Jimmy is a self-made entrepreneur, and the Gov tag money went to a presumably good cause.

A team of hired spotters sits on a bull for 10 days. They bring in old Jimmy on a horse, who is so morbidly obese he would struggle to walk to the mailbox. They set him up for a 1000+ yard shot. He gut shoots the bull. The bull lays there suffering for some period of time in obvious pain and distress (the video was edited so as not to show the whole suffering episode) and they won't let him shoot it again because he might accidentally hit an antler. They are more worried about antler score than putting the suffering bull out of his misery, even though Jimmy is capable of hitting the bull again at that range. Finally, after a period of time (hours? nobody knows) the bull dies, they ride Jimmy over to it, and a celebration ensues. Jimmy goes home with a huge elk mount for his trophy home.

Nothing about the whole event was "ethical hunting" IMO.

From: BIGRICH
29-Dec-21
He probably ate a sammich while under that tarp !!

29-Dec-21
“ appalled to have visible figures endorse the sport and contribute in various ways to its demise.”

I fixed that there for you…

Makes me wonder how he got word from the spotters where to show up so that he could drag his carcass off the horse long enough to pull out his rifle.

Are we truly expected to believe that somebody rode all the way out to the trailhead to escort him back in without the use of any electronic communications whatsoever?

“ That said, there are definitely basins a guy cant access without blowing everything out UNLESS HE’S REALLY FREAKING GOOD and the only EASY way is the long shot.”

We’re talking about animals with a brain the size of a man’s fist. They are not mythological creatures with supernatural powers of observation and the lions in those places seem to make a living at 20 yards an in….

As a rule, the harder a place is to hunt, the bigger the animals will be if you can find them there. That is supposed to be part of The Deal in Hunting.

This guy just paid his way around every conceivable obstacle. May as well have called in a drone strike.

Frankly, I think the guy who shot one off of his back porch over the corn pile put in more effort… And personally, I would rather that the non-hunting public had no idea whatsoever that people like this actually exist. That is not a brush with which I would want to be painted.

From: Surfbow
29-Dec-21
Jersey Mike's has better sandwiches...

From: SIP
29-Dec-21
Hauled his fat ass in on a mule….. What we need in this world is more kindness. Good on u GG.

Im not huge into longe range shooting either, not my thing. And how this situation played out didnt really sit super well within me. But there are lots of legal hunting methods that arent in my wheelhouse and if legal, i may think under my breath “ehhhh, not a fan” but im not gonna get ignorant and spew such hateful words to the public.

In all honesty, i know its part of the game, it happens but i guess if i had to choose id rather take a guy killing an elk at long range with a gun vs a guy gut shooting an elk with a bow, taking up the trail too soon and losing all the meat but packing the rack out with his skinny ass on his e-bike to display the horns….

Woof…that feels a little harsh….but i reread ur post and it seems to be acceptable for some to talk about ppl like that….

From: Bowfreak
29-Dec-21
I think everyone would benefit from listening to the podcast. I doubt there is anyone that posts on this thread that would want to hunt the way he does but the money he spends is great for conservation. It is a tough pill to swallow, but he has bought a lot of governor type tags and has shelled lots of money out of his pocket for conservation and to protect sheep. I and many of you like to look at things as black and white, but I am often guilty of not being aware that there is a lot of grey in the world.

From: stealthycat
29-Dec-21
ban outfitters is the only way to stop these kinds of "hunts"

this is true "The only two things good about this episode are that Jimmy is a self-made entrepreneur, and the Gov tag money went to a presumably good cause."

From: Grey Ghost
29-Dec-21
"In all honesty, i know its part of the game, it happens but i guess if i had to choose id rather take a guy killing an elk at long range with a gun vs a guy gut shooting an elk with a bow, taking up the trail too soon and losing all the meat but packing the rack out with his skinny ass on his e-bike to display the horns…."

LOL. I'd take the 30 days of scouting and 28 days of hunting I did on my own, even with the outcome, over killing a bull the way Jimmy did. And for the record, I'm far from "skinny", but I can still put my boots on myself.

Unlike your misrepresentation of my hunt, was there anything I misrepresented about Jimmy's so-called "hunt"?

Matt

From: Junior
29-Dec-21
The only two things good about this episode are that Jimmy is a self-made entrepreneur, and the Gov tag money went to a presumably good cause.

The finders fee for the gov tag is also huge for family's in AZ!

“ That said, there are definitely basins a guy cant access without blowing everything out UNLESS HE’S REALLY FREAKING GOOD and the only EASY way is the long shot.”

You can be the best hunter out there buddy, but remember your the guide and Jimmy has the tag.

We’re talking about animals with a brain the size of a man’s fist. They are not mythological creatures with supernatural powers of observation and the lions in those places seem to make a living at 20 yards an in….

And how many of those big bulls do you have?

From: Jaquomo
29-Dec-21
SIP, nice try. The difference between GG's experience and Jimmy's is that GG gave his best effort to find the gut shot bull and put him out of his misery, while Jimmy and the whole crew elected to watch his bull suffer while they celebrated, rather than putting him out of his misery with another shot that Jimmy was capable of making, apparently. The reason given in the video was to preserve antler score for vanity (and advertising for the outfitter). That is a special kind of sickness.

There is an enormous ethical gulf between the two. GG attempted to do the right thing and failed. Jimmy and the Army refused to do the right thing, and succeeded in portraying themselves as unethical jerks. I blame Jimmy for that. He hired the outfitter and the mercenaries. He controlled the decision.

29-Dec-21
Antlers are a really fun part of hunting and maybe the worst thing for hunting.

From: Grey Ghost
29-Dec-21
Guys,

Can we at least get the facts of my hunt correct? I didn't "gut shoot" my bull, I shot him squarely in the liver because he took a step at the moment I released. And I didn't "take up the trail too soon". I watched him bed down for over an hour before he got up and began walking away. I attempted to follow and put another arrow in him, but only bumped him twice, before backing out. I found him 2 days later after the meat had spoiled. I'd challenge anyone who claims I did anything wrong. You're damn right I hauled his antlers out to display in my great room. I earned that privilege, even though it's bittersweet.

Now, can we get back Jimmy's hunt?

Matt

From: SDHNTR(home)
29-Dec-21
Wow, what unit was this? not too many AZ units that need mules. 27? Anyone got a pic of the bull?

From: Jaquomo
29-Dec-21

Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Jaquomo's embedded Photo

From: SDHNTR(home)
29-Dec-21
Ok, I just found the video. Barf. A bunch of juveniles in it for all the wrong reasons. I'm not at all against Gov tags and the like, but I have turned against internet hunting prostitutes. I'm with Matt Rinella. We're past the tipping point. I'm not even against the hunter on this one. A3 should be ashamed. This isn't hunting.

From: SIP
29-Dec-21
The dude never claimed to be a big badazz hunter. Was very adamant that he was just a blessed guy he worked hard and created a situation where he could do those kind of things that most can’t. As was said, it wasnt what most of us here would call a “hunt”….and he never really claimed it himself. So disagreement with the situation, i’m with u. But getting hateful about it….dont we see that enough each day?

But I mean, by this point everybody around here knows that the only accurate representation of any situation would be how you describe it. So give me a moment to adjust my thinking…..

From: Jaquomo
29-Dec-21
I would respect Jimmy if he had told the A3 army and their commanding officer, "Screw the score, I'm going to put another bullet in that guy and end it". That's my biggest issue with the episode. The rest of it is just a representation of a high dollar safari edited to appear as a "hunt".

From: SIP
29-Dec-21
Agree 100% with u on that Lou

From: Quinn @work
29-Dec-21
Oh great. This thread again...............Let me get some popcorn. :)

From: Grey Ghost
29-Dec-21
SIP,

So, your whole problem with my description of Jimmy's so-called "hunt" is that I called him a "fat ass?" Was Lou's "morbidly obese" description more palatable to you? How would you describe a guy in his physical condition? Big boned? Well fed? Plump? Rotund? Let me know, and I will edit my post.

Matt

From: sticksender
29-Dec-21
We often carp about the liberal/progressive city-types and their “Virtue Signaling” with regard to social justice issues and other trendy stuff, but if we’re completely honest, Virtue Signaling is exactly what’s happening here, when one criticizes a legal hunt that wasn’t done “their way”. You can massage it and rationalize it all day long, but IMO that’s what it boils down to.

PS: This JJ elk story is pretty old ;-)

From: Bowfreak
29-Dec-21
"PS: This JJ elk story is pretty old ;-)"

Agreed, but I just listened to him on a podcast and realized that although I don't like these high priced jump the line tags, there is a lot of good that is done with the money rich guys like JJ give to conservation.

From: Buffalo1
29-Dec-21
“ There were over 20 people involved in the post kill recovery and chores, while Jimmy sat and watched in the shade of a tarp that was hung for him.”

You see, Hillary was correct- it does “take a village !”

From: Huntiam
29-Dec-21
.

From: Huntiam
29-Dec-21
Anyone see this side of it ?? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf0JXZqzsyE&feature=emb_title

From: SIP
29-Dec-21
No GG, dont edit a thing for me. Pulling Lou into it….yeah, what he said was probably a nicer way to put it and still get the point across. But its like my 11 yr old daughter throwing my 8 year old daughter under the bus when they speak unkindly for no reason and i ask her if she would like to be spoken to that way. Honey, what she said has no effect on how you speak of people. If you dont like it when people think they know every detail about your situation and still speak about it with unnecessary unkindness then you probably shouldn’t do that yourself.

Continue to do you, my dude. Thicken that skin a lil tho if u wanna be the foremost opinion on every subject tho. If i was always right and knew it id like to think i could use nicer words and if someone brought it up that i didnt, things would roll off my back a lil better. Im probably terribly wrong tho, so i should digress.

29-Dec-21
“ We often carp about the liberal/progressive city-types and their ‘Virtue Signaling’ with regard to social justice issues and other trendy stuff, but if we’re completely honest, Virtue Signaling is exactly what’s happening here, when one criticizes a legal hunt that wasn’t done ‘their way’ . You can massage it and rationalize it all day long, but IMO that’s what it boils down to.”

And the alternative is a world without virtues, ethics or any semblance of morals or even the rudiments of Good or Evil. Is that your preference?

I never thought that having a sense of Right & Wrong was strictly a “Liberal” thing.

From: AZ8
29-Dec-21
Yeah, I have to agree with Jaquomo. The end of that shooting sequence was a bit cringe worthy. A magnificent bull suffering and crawling to its last breath, still very much alive and those guys in the background cheering and high-fiving. The guy behind the camera even told them “he’s still alive” but the cheering continued. I know that’s what we do...kill animals, but the optics with the background cheering was too much for this DIY hunter.

29-Dec-21
Letting that magnificent bull lay there is criminal. Why didn’t they move closer if they can’t shoot that far accurately.

Also I have an issue with too many people ganging up on an animal

states should not allow that many people to be with a tag holder

I don’t know what the appropriate number is but it should only be a handful per tagged hunter

From: Grey Ghost
29-Dec-21
There's more wrong with this non-hunt then just the number of people involved, IMO. States should not offer "special" tags to the highest bidder, especially tags with no season dates or location limits.

Imagine if you were a regular hunter who had waited years to draw a tag in that area. You had done your homework, scouted hard, and found the same bull that Jimmy killed. All you had to do was wait for the season to start for the chance at a bull of a lifetime. Suddenly, a hired army of scouts moves in, finds the same bull, and camps out on it until the wealthy shooter can get there and kill it, all before any season even started. Would that upset you?

Matt

From: Bou'bound
29-Dec-21
We are not promised A life Without upsets and nobody has ever lived one

From: Grey Ghost
29-Dec-21
I never said we are "promised" anything, Grant. But, as usual, you strive for a clever one-liner that doesn't address the topic specifically.

Look, in my mind, if we can't speak out against unethical hunting policies and practices like this one for fear of being labeled jealous, self-righteous, or pompous, what the hell are we trying to protect and save for future hunters? Should we just accept the inevitable, and let money dictate the future of hunting? Count me out. And that comes from a hunter who could afford to do what Jimmy did, but would never even consider it. That's not bragging, just fact.

Matt

From: Bowfreak
29-Dec-21
No Matt it would not upset me. Jimmy played by the rules. He has tons of money and spends a lot of it on governor's tags. I guarantee you these game and fish agencies aren't complaining about it. Maybe you don't use your wealth for buying governor's tags but you are using your money to do things the masses couldn't do. Guaranteed.

29-Dec-21
I have zero problem with governor’s tags as they raise a lot of money for conservation. Willing to bet most of the non-hunting public supports them also, if told the reason for them.

What I bet they will not support is allowing an animal to needlessly suffer so as to not risk a trophy score. Trophy hunting is doing more harm than good IMO. A thread discussing that would be interesting.

From: Bowfreak
29-Dec-21
Agreed HFW.

From: Grey Ghost
29-Dec-21
Mark,

What I do with my wealth doesn't affect policies and practices that affect fellow hunters who might not be as wealthy. Just look at the BSC thread. Many well-off hunters have expressed their dismay over the prices of outfitted hunts that they could afford in past years, but can't anymore. Even Pat expressed his dismay that his kids will never enjoy the hunting experiences that he did because of outfitter prices. If you can't see the slippery slope hunting is on due to greed and money, then you're not looking.

Matt

From: Bowfreak
29-Dec-21
Matt,

In a capitalist society a limited resource will demand a premium price. The horse is out of the barn and it ain't going back in.

From: Grey Ghost
29-Dec-21
Frank,

Do you know for fact the AZ governors tags raise money for conservation? Or does that money go into a general fund that is used for anything that the state legislators deem appropriate? To be honest, I haven't looked into it in detail. I do know a lot of Colorado's hunting and fishing revenues don't go directly into conservation.

Matt

From: Grey Ghost
29-Dec-21
"In a capitalist society a limited resource will demand a premium price."

You mean like fuel? Yeah, a limited resource which hasn't changed price in inflation adjusted dollars for decades, but everyone howls like monkeys when it increases 50 cents per gallon. Why not the same outrage for outfitted hunting prices?

Matt

29-Dec-21
“ Why not the same outrage for outfitted hunting prices?”

Ummmm…. Because they can’t blame it on “Biden”???

From: Grey Ghost
29-Dec-21
Bingo.

From: Mark S
29-Dec-21
Reminds me of "the code" forum. As hunters we bear responsibility for the animals we hunt. Letting them suffer for no reason other than one's own vanity turns my stomach. Amazing animal. Sorry to see it die at the hands of a hunter and outfitter that do not share the appreciation....or respect

From: Zbone
29-Dec-21
Reminds me of the WR Spider bull shot a few years ago... I think they had a crew of daily spotters on him for months...

Watched this video, was this bull eating on sage?

From: Bowfreak
30-Dec-21
Matt,

Have outfitted prices raised 50% immediately after a new President was elected?

Also, why do you care about outfitted hunts? You would never do an outfitted hunt!

From: Rocky D
30-Dec-21
“ If you can't see the slippery slope hunting is on due to greed and money, then you're not looking.”

I am so tired of hearing this mantra over and over thread after thread.

All the while coming from someone that refers to his money as wealth!

People are not going to devalue their product by selling way below the market price!

I hear this talk of greed from rich politicians, movie stars, and other outrageously paid individuals who try to cast a concept of good will on the masses but all the while stuffing their pockets as fast as they can.

Yes, prices going up is a problem but ever since I was born I knew that someone had to pay the piper! People need to quit thinking that life is fair and realize that it’s actually a competition and we don’t all start at the same place.

It’s all relative, from the guy that has to hunt Public land to the guy that can and do afford hunts that cost a fortune. I see and hear the same thing on a smaller scale in discussions on trail cameras, baiting, and compounds vs stick bows!

Number one rule is whatever you choose to use or don’t use doesn’t make you a better hunter. The only person that you should be comparing yourself to is in fact yourself.

Do a Tom Brady and go out and make yourself better everyday.

Also, understand that whatever you can or cannot do is probably a direct result of what you have put into life. You make choices and you make trade offs that in the end affect the outcome of your life.

Be a man and take responsibility for it! Don’t sit back and point fingers at those who achieve more, invest more, and ultimately do more with their lives!

We all should be thankful that JJ’s founder is hunter and not funding the anti hunting effort but no we would rather do comparative analysis to figure out some way that we are better because of what we don’t do, cannot afford to do, or are unwilling to do what it takes to be able to do it!

From: Rocky D
30-Dec-21

30-Dec-21
I think The reason we are still talking about that “Hunt” is that after making a poor decision to shoot past his skill level,

they let that Bull lay there, gut shot. instead of using all the ammo they had to kill it. because they were worried about hitting the antlers. They should’ve used all their ammo, then when out of ammo, walked up there and used a knife.

Of course we have all had animals that died in other than optimal ways. but that is when it’s out of our control. Not in plain sight within our control to stop

And I hope that Bull is not allowed in B&C because that was not fair chase!

From: 8point
30-Dec-21
Shouldn't the state have some reason to censure the guide for not using ethical practices i.e. not taking action to make an ethical kill. It might not stop this crap, but it might cause the guide to not make hay out it.

From: Rocky D
30-Dec-21
“ Shouldn't the state have some reason to censure the guide for not using ethical practices i.e. not taking action to make an ethical kill.”

Be careful what you ask for…

From: Bou'bound
30-Dec-21
You want the state to define ethics and regulate accordingly?

From: Venom16730
30-Dec-21
Where can you find the video at ?

From: Huntiam
30-Dec-21
Grey ghost …that’s exactly what happened to Trent watch the link I posted

From: Huntiam
30-Dec-21
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf0JXZqzsyE&feature=emb

From: JL
30-Dec-21
I watched the whole vid and read some of the vid comments on YT.

That was a class act by the vid poster Trent....he took the high road and still got to be part of it. Other people outside of those involved also seen this bull and were following it too. According to the folks there, the first shot hit it in the shoulder. The second shot looked like the gut/leg area but not sure where. Judging from the behavior I seen, I would guess it was going to die from the first shot. From the time of the first shot to the time it dropped was ~1:30 seconds. Wounded animals sometimes take a while to die...it happens and we all know that. We just happened to see it this time in the vid. Think how many times all of us shot animals and they did the exact same thing but we never saw it because the animal ran off into the bush. IMO it's kinda hard to be critical when I know some of the critters I shot may have done the same thing but I (we) didn't see it....especially on the ones I/we wounded and didn't recover. He maybe/possibly could have took a 3rd shot at it when it tried to stand....but it quickly dropped back down for good. There was ~9 seconds between the time it tried to stand up until it laid down for good. If I was in that scenario...I probably would not have be able to get shot off either with a bow or rifle in 9 seconds.

It's easy to watch someone else's vid and pick it apart because the hunter did (or didn't do) something I may have done differently. I'd say congrats to JJ for pulling off the shot and him giving credit to everyone for making it possible. He has made a 1000+ yard kill shot before so he does have some skill and equipment set to do that. He seemed very humble in saying he is not a great hunter but does get to hunt with great hunters. If ya have the coin to drop $350K-something on a Gov's tag...good luck to ya.

From: Grey Ghost
30-Dec-21
JL,

I haven't watched the edited version of the video, but I'm sure the most offensive parts were edited out. I know in the unedited version Jimmy was instructed not to shoot again because he might "hit the horns". I only recall one shot, but maybe there was 2. Regardless, they let that animal suffer unnecessarily long, when they had the means to end it sooner.

I do agree with you, however, by the nature of the weapons we use for bow hunting, animals often do take a long time to expire. But there's really nothing we can do about that. Usually we get one shot and hope that we place the arrow in a lethal spot. That's not the case in Jimmy's non-hunt. He could have emptied his weapon, even reloaded, and kept shooting until the animal was dead.

But that's not really the most troubling part about this non-hunt to me.

Matt

From: DanaC
30-Dec-21
"You want the state to define ethics and regulate accordingly? "

Generally what they do is define UN-ethical behavior and 'regulate accordingly'. Keep in mind that 'legally allowed' is the *minimum* standard of ethicality, not the optimum. What JJ did was probably 'legal' but 'ethical'?

From: Jaquomo
30-Dec-21
Good point, Dana. The lines can blur between legal and ethical. The CO Division of Wildlife decided that hunting bears in spring, with hounds or bait, was "ethical", and therefore legal. The people in the state disagreed, and voted to outlaw it. So what was legal/ethical became illegal/unethical by popular opinion.

That's why we as hunters, need to be careful, because we don't get to define what is legal or ethical. Nonhunting decision-makers decide those boundaries for us.

From: DanaC
30-Dec-21
We had a similar situation here in MA, referendum vote outlawed bear hunting with hounds, also most trapping.

From: AZ8
30-Dec-21
JL, the difference is you and I and probably most guys on this forum aren’t whooping and hollering giving high-fives and laughing watching/filming that play out. We either get a second shot in him as soon as possible, or if the animal is out of sight, we sit back under a tree, quietly waiting, maybe an hour, for the animal to expire. There’s no way as a hunter you can defend the optics of that video.

30-Dec-21
Nice elk!

From: JL
30-Dec-21
AZ8...he did take a second shot at minute 15:03 in the vid link posted above. I don't get into whooping and hollering either...but that is me. I hunt solo most of the time. I'll say a "whew" or "wow" something like that, have a grin (or a rare frown) on my face and then remember to give thanks to the man upstairs for the animal and/or opportunity. We see fisherman whoop and holler all the time when fighting a big fish but they don't seem to get criticized and called unethical. All of that said...I don't think folks whooping and hollering and high-fiving on or off camera is illegal....but to each his own I suppose.

Is sitting in a stand after a shot waiting for the animal to die unethical? The animal could be alive for another 15 minutes (pick a time) yet we didn't go do a follow up. We all talk about waiting but we don't criticize ourselves if that is unethical. Of course I'm being rhetorical....but the idea is to be careful criticizing others for something we may be doing ourselves in a different fashion.

Matt....is there another, unedited vid out there somewhere that shows a different context from the vid above?

From: Grey Ghost
30-Dec-21
JL,

I don’t know, but I doubt it. The original video was highly criticized for good reason. In the edited version, you can see where they cut the video to shorten the length of time they watched the suffering bull with no follow up shots. They also cut out where the outfitter advises Jimmy not to shoot again because he might hit the antlers.

Matt

From: JL
30-Dec-21
Watching the bull just prior to the first shot at around 13:55, note the surrounding. Then it's edited with a new surrounding (13:58) showing what we see as the first shot. It appears to be not moving and it's neck is sticking out as though it was arching it's back. To me, I wonder if it was already shot and ran to the new surrounding?? Could they have actually edited out the first shot that was bad with a wound or a complete miss? I don't know?? Someone would need to ask the video guy who was there and/or edited it or Trent. If they did edited out a real first shot, they should have kept that in there or at least put in a note saying what happened.

From: AZ8
30-Dec-21
The first shot in the video, isn’t the first shot. The video editing and the bull’s behavior clearly indicates it’s been hit prior. Probably a bad shot. Anyways, not my cup of tea and I’ll leave it at that.

JJ- “Can I have another bullet Willie, just in case?” A3- “Just let him be, we don’t want to hit that antler.”

From: DanaC
31-Dec-21

DanaC's Link
Video, from a year ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf0JXZqzsyE

From: bghunter
31-Dec-21
Hopefully this works. Regardless of the hunt etc .

You can't argue with this. Well I am sure some will but either way I am still posting

https://www.instagram.com/p/CYIFRXxMkFd/?utm_medium=copy_link

From: Ambush
31-Dec-21
JJ seems like a really likable guy. It's good to have his money on our side in the hunting debates. But given that, I really, really dislike long range shooting on animals. His first shot was bang on and lethal. The second was a far back gut shot that should not have been taken with the animal moving. The need for a third is really debatable. The reason given for not taking the third shot, by the guide, is despicable, but it didn't really sound like that's what Jimmy wanted. He suggested another bullet.

I'd harbor much more disrespect for the guide than JJ.

31-Dec-21
“ People need to quit thinking that life is fair and realize that it’s actually a competition and we don’t all start at the same place.”

“ Also, understand that whatever you can or cannot do is probably a direct result of what you have put into life. You make choices and you make trade offs that in the end affect the outcome of your life.”

So we do not all start off on a level playing field…. but the “winners” are allowed to congratulate themselves, and the “also rans” should stop whining and take a long look in the mirror…

Yeah.

From: Franzen
01-Jan-22
Do you guys ever eat that Jimmy Cubano? Pretty good sandwich.

From: JL
01-Jan-22
Never ate a Jimmy Johns anything. The Fire House's Italian sub is pretty good. Use to like the old K-Mart 2 for $3 subs too.

From: Rocky D
01-Jan-22
“ People need to quit thinking that life is fair and realize that it’s actually a competition and we don’t all start at the same place.” “ Also, understand that whatever you can or cannot do is probably a direct result of what you have put into life. You make choices and you make trade offs that in the end affect the outcome of your life.”

So we do not all start off on a level playing field…. but the “winners” are allowed to congratulate themselves, and the “also rans” should stop whining and take a long look in the mirror…”

Corax, that’s reality or you can follow the Dems and try to put your finger on the scale to try to level the playing field but that’s a false reality that didn’t occur naturally over time.

What good is it to pass students who can’t pass the test who eventually get hired under the same system who cannot do the job and all it does is reinforce negative stereotypes.

Life and the world is not fair and never was meant to be fair!

Listen to the science, “survival of the fittest” is as true today as it ever was!

From: 8point
01-Jan-22
Interesting how the discussion went from ethics to economics

From: Dale06
01-Jan-22
And from ethics to sandwich’s.

From: Rocky D
01-Jan-22
“ Then they hauled Jimmy's fat ass in on a mule to shoot it at 1000 yards. There were over 20 people involved in the post kill recovery and chores, while Jimmy sat and watched in the shade of a tarp that was hung for him.”

Hunting can be and is more than what fits into our own wheel house!

I could easily have said that the recent deer killed with self made bow and stone tipped arrow was unethical based on the rudimentary instruments but I didn’t know the personal limitations established or the proficiency obtained!

That’s why ultimately the ethics fall on the individual.

From: LINK
01-Jan-22
Ethics do fall on the individual. The biggest ethical fail in all this is releasing unedited video. I love it when Newberg and others show a hunt how it happens but in this scenario that shouldn’t be the case. They should have edited out the “guides” after about the third one and made the video appear that the bull expired quickly. That might have meant leaving a lot out. In these high profile individual big bounty hunts they need to make sure what they release is kosher. As others have said sometimes animals take awhile to die. They shouldn’t have let him suffer but the real crime is showing it on video for the world to see.

From: Ambush
01-Jan-22
Has anyone seen the entire, unedited video and can state how long from first shot till dead? Or at least until the bull reached his final resting spot behind the log.

From: Bou'bound
01-Jan-22
Yes someone has

From: SIP
01-Jan-22
Good points Link

01-Jan-22
“ Ethics do fall on the individual. The biggest ethical fail in all this is releasing unedited video. ”

No, because as they say, your Ethics are what you do when nobody is watching. “Editing” out the unflattering parts is just lying about what you did because you know full well that you fell well short of commonly accepted standards of behavior and you don’t want the world to see how badly you screwed up.

And yes, there is a HUGE Ethics gap between sitting quietly and allowing time for an animal (which has fled your field of view) to expire in relative peace so that you won’t bump it and lose it… and standing around whooping an hollering within earshot of an animal (thereby stressing it out further) when you could easily end it.

The former seeks to minimize stress, suffering and the potential for loss of edible meat, and the latter dismisses the animal’s suffering as inconsequential relative to the potential loss of “score” and the opportunity for personal gain by staking a claim to credit on the “record”.

“ They shouldn’t have let him suffer but the real crime is showing it on video for the world to see.”

Disagree. The “crime” was what it was. The video is just Crime Scene Evidence.

I’m not saying that it’s not Unethical to do things which cast others in a poor light. Or to publicize them. Or to do so for profit. It is.

From: APauls
01-Jan-22
Ugh, watching that video made me wanna doe/cow hunt for the rest of my life...

From: azelkhntr
01-Jan-22
I watched Danas posted vid and I can find no fault in the hunt from it. I don't believe the bull had been shot at all prior or it wouldn't have been feeding normally. In fact it wouldn't even have been around like as not. The man is a millionaire, paid for the tag and the opportunity and must have spent well over $100k for all the helpers in his legal quest. I see no ethical violations in the film. I would recommend to AZG&F that one of our LEO's be assigned to the hunting party to keep tabs on it. Make sure its all on the up and up so no question of its integrity. What I do read on here is alot of envy and jealousy. Life isnt fair boys and girls. There was no guarantee he would get that particular animal and if not another hunter(s) would have had the opty. The No: 2 may still be out there. Congrats Mr. J.J!

From: LINK
01-Jan-22
“ No, because as they say, your Ethics are what you do when nobody is watching. “Editing” out the unflattering parts is just lying about what you did because you know full well that you fell well short of commonly accepted standards of behavior and you don’t want the world to see how badly you screwed up.”

I agree about ethics I just don’t expect others to have the same ethics you or I do. If your ethics are poor at least have the decency to not portray that image of hunting to the world. If a had to stick an animal so many times he looked like a porcupine running around I wouldn’t air the video. Same here, no laws broken just poor ethics and poor taste. Don’t paint all hunters with that brush by airing it.

From: Jaquomo
01-Jan-22
Az, are you ok with the guide refusing to give Jimmy another cartridge so he could put a final, finishing shot into the bull as he lay there suffering, because the guide didn't want to chance Jimmy hitting the antler? Jimmy wanted to do the right thing. IMO, it was the outfitter who was unethical.

From: Mark S
01-Jan-22
Is having a bunch of spotters/guides ethical? To me no as it isn't fair chase. Seems like a high fence "no kill - no pay" deal. But, it's legal. Maybe in future it won't be, but, would be hard to enforce if it was illegal. Hunters are representative of the overall population- no better or worse. But, there are some great ones for sure

From: azelkhntr
01-Jan-22
Jaquomo01-Jan-22 Az, are you ok with the guide refusing to give Jimmy another cartridge so he could put a final, finishing shot into the bull as he lay there suffering, because the guide didn't want to chance Jimmy hitting the antler? Jimmy wanted to do the right thing. IMO, it was the outfitter who was unethical.

IDK? Looked to me the first shot was spot on the money. It didn't take that long for the bruiser to expire imo. Suffering? I don't think so. If I had a good solid boiler room shot on a magnificent beast such as that I wouldn't risk the chance of hitting that rack either. And if it came down to it neither would you I suspect. The value of that rack in repros will pay for the hunt. The A3 guide made the right call.

From: Bou'bound
01-Jan-22
what if he had said "don't take another shot we don't want to hit it again and destroy more meat unnecessarily".

would that justify the extended death for some and not for others.

has anyone out there ever, when gun hunting, not put in an immediately killing follow-up shot on an obviously dead on feet animal in order to salvage more meat?

From: Rocky D
01-Jan-22
“ has anyone out there ever, when gun hunting, not put in an immediately killing follow-up shot on an obviously dead on feet animal in order to salvage more meat?”

Nope, not for that purpose. if I had a legitimate time to evaluate the animal and I am in position to make the decision a follow up shot normally followed soon thereafter.

Now I can think of lots of situations where that would not be the case! We leave animals all the time based on hit and recovery probabilities so a few seconds is not an ethical dilemma for me!

Be careful, when drawing conclusions on others when conditions warrant scrutiny. Always remember that it can be a double edged sword that can be used against us!

Some examples may include no guide, packers, and trackers on safaris and similar types of hunts.

How about a requirement that only the licensed hunter can be afield?

From: Rocky D
01-Jan-22

From: Rocky D
01-Jan-22

From: Jaquomo
01-Jan-22
The links posted on here are the edited ones. The original unedited one many of us saw was a bit different, and I'll leave it at that.

From: Zbone
01-Jan-22
Jaquomo - "The links posted on here are the edited ones. The original unedited one many of us saw was a bit different, and I'll leave it at that."

You have a link to the unedited version... Was there 2 or 3 shots fired? Maybe I'm not seeing it but those clips that was posted I did not see a gut shot animal... I only seen 2 shots, the first one the bull was standing broadside, and if he was already hit, there was a blood spot was just behind the front shoulder almost a perfect aiming point for an arrow placement... After the first shot I heard, was a great shot in the shoulder area, that bull was already dead on his feet, am not sure of the second shot cause he was out of view, it may have been in the guts but wouldn't have mattered, it was not the first shot I viewed...

From: JL
01-Jan-22
What was shown as the first shot in the vid.....IMO that was a kill shot based on the elks reaction to the hit. As I was looking closely at it, I noticed the tail was starting to flicker real fast. Many of the deer I have mortally shot also flickered their tail. Some while standing, some while running off. Seen alot of vids with deer doing the tail flicker when mortally shot. I'm thinking elk are no different.

From: Zbone
01-Jan-22
I agree JL, he was dead on his feet after the first shot I viewed... If the shot were actually 1,000 yards (that is over a half mile) the bullet had lost a lot of kinetic energy... Am curious of rifle caliber...

From: Zbone
01-Jan-22
Oops, keep forgetting to ask again, was that a species of sage those bulls were feeding on??? I couldn't quite tell from the video...

From: tinecounter
01-Jan-22
Viewed video and saw/heard two well placed (lucky?) shots, but no gut shot, dying bull. Due to edited video? Perhaps. Ethical, fair chase hunt and kill? Doesn't fill my ethical, fair chase judgemental "cup of tea." Hired entourage did the hunting and spotting. JJ did the killing. Just another high dollar "money talks" successfully guided hunt taken to the extreme. Decision to take the 960 yd. shot is most troubling to me. But, as previously stated, saw no gut shot animal.

From: Jaquomo
01-Jan-22
Look carefully. As others have pointed out, look where the bull is standing at 13:55. Then look where he is standing after the "A little while later" edit cuts back in at 14:00, right before the shoulder shot. The bull is in a different place, totally different vegetation, and you can clearly see the first bullet hole that's low and behind the front leg that is pulled back. Blood is running down the side from that shot. The bullet hole was not there before. That shot was behind the heart and behind the lower lobe of the lungs, and with his front leg pulled back it is square in the front stomach. You can see it better as he starts to run off after the second, shoulder shot. At 14:00 The bull has his neck stretched out and is immobile, in a classic gut shot stance (I used to guide rifle hunters, have seen it before). What is missing is what happened during the "little while later" portion that hit the cutting room floor.

The second shot was a good shot. What was edited out was the first shot and what happened between that and the fatal shoulder shot. The previous version is not up anymore, that I can find.

Like I said earlier, my issue is with the guide not letting JJ take another shot, as JJ requested, in case he might hit the antler. It was JJs bull, JJ's money, and the decision to shoot again should have been his alone.

Hunters make bad shots, whether at 10 yards or 1000. I've been involved with over 100 elk kills and have seen every shot possibility imaginable. Don't have an issue with that because JJ obviously practices at that range and the bull was standing still at the first shot. But to hear a guide tell a hunter to forget his conscience for the sake of antlers is something that strikes a sour note.

From: Jaquomo
01-Jan-22

Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Jaquomo's embedded Photo

From: azelkhntr
01-Jan-22
From: tinecounter01-Jan-22 Viewed video and saw/heard two well placed (lucky?) shots, but no gut shot, dying bull. I kept going back and looking at the 2nd. shot but can't say definitively if it hit the animal. If it did, it hit very close to 1st. one. The view is slightly askew but it seems like some hair moves. Ground is very damp so if the bullet hit the dirt in that brush you'd not see dust. Damn good shootin.

From: Zbone
01-Jan-22
Hmmmmm, that photo is debatable whether it caught inflated lungs or not, but still a fatal shot, either lungs and/or liver, but by no means a gut shot... Remember when lungs are inflated, they pressure up against the diaphragm...

From: Rocky D
01-Jan-22
“ Viewed video and saw/heard two well placed (lucky?) ”

You don’t get lucky and make two shots within what appears to be a maximum of .5 moa displacement at that distance.

Finally watched video, the guide probably made the perfect call since the left antler paralleled above the elks vitals.

At a 1000 yards the bullet is dropping significantly every 25 meters. Where are all the former snipers and long range shooters on this thread.

Assuming that JJ was shooting something in the 338 class the max ord (the highest point of flight) would probably be around 700 yards and from that point the bullet would be rapidly descending until it reached the target.

If he was shooting something much lighter than the 338 then the bullet drop would be even more significant.

With that said, this is not my cup of tea but let the rich bastard hunt however he wants to as long as as it legal.

From: Jaquomo
01-Jan-22
Zbone, look again when the bull runs off after the shoulder shot, when his leg goes forward. You can see how far back the first hit truly is, vs. when he is standing there with his leg back. It is behind the diaphragm, behind the lower lobe of the lung that angles forward there. The liver is on the opposite side of the body, and higher. Look at the shot in relation to the curve of the belly. Also, as Rocky notes, the bullet would be descending at a pretty good angle there, and the bull is below them as well.

I've seen that exact hit a number of times on elk, with rifle and bow, and have done the necropsy (assuming the hunter didn't blow him out before making a killing shot, or after finding him dead in his bed). Often times the hunter thinks he made a "great shot", especially with a bow, because most 3D targets show that spot as the 8 ring. I lost a bull with that shot placement (bow) many years ago because I mistakenly thought I hit lung, and followed up too soon, bumping him.

Also, they don't show the angle the bull was standing when that shot hit. Quartering away, he probably got one lung. But that part was edited out. It was a fatal shot, eventually, but the tell is him standing there locked up, immobile, with his head outstretched, "a little while later".

But like I said, my beef is not with the shot, but with the guide not letting JJ act as his conscience and ethics dictated. JJ wanted to do the right thing. Also with the creative editing to clip out the footage of the first shot, but creative editing almost always takes place after the hunt is over. That's Show Business.

From: Ambush
02-Jan-22
For those that know: how much time passed between the first shot and the well placed shoulder shot? How much time was edited out? Was there a follow up shot opportunity between the first and second shot. Who has seen the entire unedited video?

From: Zbone
02-Jan-22
Thanks Jaquomo....

Am not a fan of 1,000 yard shots on such a magnificent animal or any big game animal for that matter, nor a crew of spotters keeping tabs for a wealthy client, like this bull and the Spider bull, but just didn't find the video I watched that offensive that those are howling about... Kinda like to see the first shot, the angle, etc...

From: duvall
02-Jan-22
I literally had to laugh at some of the comments here...people get absolutely roasted on this site by showing unflattering pics of animals with comments like "don't give ammo to the antis"...yet I read comments about editing out the time the animal was supposedly still alive is lying and should've been left in...uhhh ok...2. People seem upset that he didn't put more bullets into it. Ok but how many of you have hit something bad and stayed put as to not jump it full well knowing it was dying? Or how many maybe hit something and let it go overnight as not to risk not finding it? Sometimes the hypocrisy is literally laughable

02-Jan-22
“ Remember when lungs are inflated, they pressure up against the diaphragm...”

Nope. They fill due to the vacuum created by diaphragmatic contraction. They are ALWAYS tight to the diaphragm.

The whole thing was a shit-show. There’s NO EFFING WAY that ”jj” paid enough for that tag to compensate for the damage that this mess did to Hunting.

Reminds me of the old bit ascribed to Winston Churchill…

Supposedly he had offended some woman - who told him she was offended - and he said something along the lines of “Yes, but you would still sleep with me for £1,000,000, wouldn’t you?“ And she agreed that she probably would.

Then he asked her if she would do it for £1 and she exclaimed “Of course not! What do you think I am? A prostitute??“

“We’ve already established that. Now we’re negotiating price.”

So I’m just wondering… What is Our Price?

From: Ambush
02-Jan-22
" There’s NO EFFING WAY that ”jj” paid enough for that tag to compensate for the damage that this mess did to Hunting."

Sorry, but that is just hyperbolic bull crap. Not really a Cecil the Lion type a deal.

From: Jaquomo
02-Jan-22
Hmmm, how many of you have had a wounded animal standing there within your effective range and wanted to take a follow up finishing shot, but didn't because your guide didn't want to risk chipping an antler? Which would wreck the website pics for A-3 and dilute the published score on said website?

How many obviously made a bad hit on an an animal but allowed the video to be edited and published to make it appear that the first shot never happened, and the second shot became the "first" shot?

02-Jan-22
I disagree, Rod.

You are correct that this was a much lower profile than Cecil, but I think you’re underestimating the cost/value of something like this to an outfit like PETA.

As Media budgets go, $225k is peanuts.

From: azelkhntr
02-Jan-22
From: Jaquomo02-Jan-22Private Reply Hmmm, how many of you have had a wounded animal standing there within your effective range and wanted to take a follow up finishing shot, but didn't because your guide didn't want to risk chipping an antler? Which would wreck the website pics for A-3 and dilute the published score on said website?

Never had to shoot an animal more than once. Never used a guide either. The only thing I know about A3 is that they seem to have earned their money. Kuddos to them. If I ever draw my desired tag in the homeland I may just have to give them a call.

From: DanaC
02-Jan-22
I've shot deer with a rifle, that I knew were 'dead', but put another shot in the neck anyway. Lights out right there. I won't let the animal suffer one second longer if I can help it. A couple pounds of meat or points on a score sheet aren't gonna let me sleep better. Knowing I dispatched the animal as humanely as possible, yeah.

jmo, ymmv

From: Junior
02-Jan-22
Some of you guys need to take your OCD meds.

From: Bou'bound
02-Jan-22
He may have hit the void unknowingly and felt death was imminent.

02-Jan-22
I think there is more jealousy than known facts to this thread.

From: LINK
02-Jan-22
Bou the void is much higher. ;)

From: Ambush
02-Jan-22
IMO: Peta has thousands of stock photos, videos and gleaned website material to draw from. Any they don't have they just make up. We have less to fear from radical peta than we do from some of the more sane and mainstream orgs like Sierra Club and the like. There is now a proliferation of small, local based groups on facebook, twitter and instagram that are doing way more damage right in your own communities. What peta really wants is screen shots of hunters tearing up hunters on hunting sites.

I can't muster any hate for JJ. He wants to hunt but is limited by time and physical ability, but has the money (that he earned in the hallowed free enterprise system) to hunt some animals. I know some guys that fat that still move quite well, so I'm inclined to believe he has other disabilities besides that. It's doesn't take several tries to get off a donkey just from being overweight. JJ wanted to shoot again, as he should have.

I do not like long range shooting on animals. On the second shot (that was shown) you can see how much the bull moved from trigger pull to impact.

The big group of guys celebrating is counter to everything that I value about hunting. Look at beav's or Hunt's pic thread and see what it really is about. Mossback type hunts are just a business, very far removed from a hunter and a guide living and hunting together for a couple weeks in the wild.

I don't watch TV hunters as most are just as fake as any other projected media personalities, from cooking to home improvement.

In this case the guide should be castigated for his selfish decision. Very unprofessional.

JJ has probably "Donated" more money to wildlife conservation than 95% of the posters on here together including their tag cost. I sat next to a table at a Reno Sheep Show a couple years ago, that bid and bought almost $700, 000 worth of sheep hunts, plus some other stuff. A couple of Bowsiter's there did the same. Any one of them could have just bought ten hunts for that price. There's more to it then just "some lazy fat ass buying a zoo animal". Some people just put their money where their mouth is. Just because we don't have that money doesn't mean we can hate on those that do.

After watching the video in slo-mo and pause several times, I can agree with Lou that there is a previous shot that is not shown. But before I judge JJ, I'd want to see all the evidence and know the circumstance and time lapse. Maybe the bull moved behind some trees after the first shot and there was no opportunity until he moved into the open? I'd also guess the "first" shot as a very low, single lung.

I'd hate to be on trial with some of you guys in the jury. "Lets hang him now, we can have a fair trail later".

From: LINK
02-Jan-22
Missouri there are a few known facts, A3 just pulled the initial video. Either way I don’t care what you or JJ kill. I really couldn’t care any less and I think Jaq couldn’t either. I don’t care how JJ hunts as long as it’s legal. With great wealth, power, notoriety comes great responsibility. One of those responsibilities for JJ is to not drag the hunting community through the sewer. As Jaq points out much of that falls on the outfitter but I place it with JJ. No outfitter would keep me from firing a follow up shot if that was my desire. When someone chooses to use their finances to thrust themselves into the spotlight. Purchasing record animals and then videoing it, they dang sure have a responsibility to make sure the posted video is on the up and up.

From: Mule Power
02-Jan-22
Drycreek… to be fair, a 100 yard bow shot and a 1000 yard rifle shot are not equivalent. I definitely see your point brother but a 1000 yard gun shot I’d say would be more like a 60 yard bow range. To me anyway because I’ve NEVER shot any bow over 35 yards. I never had the desire to shoot any further at an animal so never bothered even putting a pin on my sites beyond that. But after a little homework with a really good gun those long bombs aren’t that hard. Of course there are guys out there who can prove me wrong all day. I’m definitely no Randy Ulmer. Lol

As far as rich guys shooting giant critters….. Reading Chuck Adam’s Life at Full Draw, and talking to him in person completely changed my thoughts on that. Those two guys are obviously totally different but because of Chuck I don’t judge. Every knows or thinks they know about how much money they have but don’t stop to consider the commitment and sacrifices.

I do know people who have bought success like that and have more money than brains or hunting skills. But I try to maintain the to each his own way of thinking even though myself and probably most of us wouldn’t do it that way even if we could. Hats off to those of us who would rather just hunt public land longer if we were billionaires. . Haha

From: Ambush
02-Jan-22
A year after winning a huge lottery a man said; "I don't get it, I'm still the same, but all my former friends have changed.".

02-Jan-22
If I ever win a big lottery, I’ll just buy a bunch of hunting land and let all my friends come join me…

I’m sure I will have plenty.

From: Mule Power
02-Jan-22
Ambush that was Joe Walsh in Life’s Been Good to me So Far.

“It’s tough to handle this fortune and fame. Everybody’s so different but I haven’t changed”

From: Rocky D
02-Jan-22
This may end up to being the biggest misinformation thread of the year!

I honestly believe that the vast majority of comments are based more on envy than it is on ethics!

Secondly, their are people commenting on 1000 yard shots and decisions that are based on shooting that distance by people who have not ever shot beyond 400 yards.

Most people will never have the gun, the ammo or the knowledge to consistently hit at a thousand yard shot!

I do agree with MulePower that a hundred bow shot is tougher than a thousand yard rifle shot with the right setup and training.

Also, your average bowhunter is not good at fifty yards nevertheless any distance beyond that.

Obviously, JJ had the right setup and had put in the due diligence to achieve proficiency at that distance.

As far as trophy hunting is concerned I bet all the meat was salvaged.

What is the appropriate number of people that can assist in a hunt and still be ethical? Take the number from sol to safari!

I bet that every guided hunt has more people contributing to the outcome than what is initially visible at the first look.

I love it when people bemoan the fact of using a guide when they have done nothing with their lives to be able to afford a guided hunt. I personally have been on one guided hunt and every day it was out before daylight and back after dark.

I totally agree with not shooting another shot to finish after two kill shots are already in the animal. I previously stated that the outfitters call was the right call.

“ Hats off to those of us who would rather just hunt public land longer if we were billionaires”

I would call that man a liar and you don’t know the answer unless you were a billionaire. As far as western game and Alaska much of the best hunting is on public land so forgive when I don’t feel sorry for you when you draw a primo limited entry permit! Especially, if if its one of the coveted one in a lifetime draws!

“ And yes, there is a HUGE Ethics gap between sitting quietly and allowing time for an animal (which has fled your field of view) to expire in relative peace so that you won’t bump it and lose it… and standing around whooping an hollering within earshot of an animal (thereby stressing it out further) when you could easily end it.”

Another misguided comment, the bull was dead on it’s feet! Bow hunters wait because they have normally have no idea once the animal is out of sight.

I would purposely take the time to reflect the underlying root cause of my comments if I had made some the ones posted. Are they out of envy, jealous, or true ignorance.

Just because you hunt DIY public land doesn’t make you better hunter by itself than someone who hunts private or guided!

I wish that I could resist even commenting but the temptation is to great!

I notice that many of the most successful hunters on Bowsite are not commenting and for good reason!

From: Rocky D
02-Jan-22

02-Jan-22
Rocky,

Are you JJ’s brother, or just a big investor? Kidding?

No jealousy here. This subject was brought up before and I based my opinion off of the original video. I don’t know how anyone can conclude from the original video anything other than the optics do hunters no favors.

The assistance he had, the special tag, not of that bothers me. Just think the video should have never made it into the public realm.

From: PECO2
02-Jan-22
Yeah I jump up and down, screaming "Booo-yah", "smoked him", "that bich takin a dirt nap" and more weather there is a camera on me on not. Actually I have never done that and I think it is Ass Clownish. Flame on.

From: Jaquomo
02-Jan-22
No envy from me. I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford any hunt I want, including something like JJs if I so desired. Luckily for my wife and daughter who will inherit whatever is left, I don't enjoy guided hunts. To each his own. I have no problem with it, although something like JJs doesn't look like hunting to me, only a horseback ride and a few long target shots.

As far as misinformation, there were three shots, not two. The first gut shot was "dead on his feet" but nobody knows how long that would take. I've experienced arrow-shot bulls with that hit that live for many hours. A rifle hunter I was guiding made that shot, took off after the bull before I could get there, and we never found him.

Unless you have seen the unscrubbed video, you really don't know all that went on. None of us know what really went on between the first shot and when Jimmy was permitted to take the second shot, which looked like a killing shot, but hard to tell from 3/5 of a mile away. Many bowhunters think they've put a "perfect shot" into a bull at 30 yards, and it turns out to be not where they thought.

If not putting a finishing shot into an animal when you have the opportunity is "ethical" to you, then that's your choice. If Jimmy was such an awesome shot as some of you think, he should be able to thread the needle, and he wanted to try. I give him props for that.

But remember this: hunters no longer get to decide what is ethical. Those boundaries lie in the hands of nonhunting voters. Not PETA or HSUS, but normal people who don't care about hunting so long as it is "sporting" and the animal doesn't suffer needlessly.

From: Grey Ghost
02-Jan-22
As I said earlier, I respect Jimmy's career accomplishments, but I couldn't be less jealous or envious of this non-hunt. I would love to know what Jimmy actually feels when he looks at that bull on his wall, considering what a small part he played in killing it. It would be a source of shame for me.

Matt

From: Genesis
02-Jan-22
Careful,he is a Kuiu Athlete ……

From: DanaC
02-Jan-22
" Most people will never have the gun, the ammo or the knowledge to consistently hit at a thousand yard shot! "

Am I supposed to believe that this guy has studied guns and ballistics, and developed or tested loads, sighted in and practiced at 1000 yards in preparation for this hunt? When it's pretty clear that he's a buy-a-trophy type? He may have 'earned' this animal in the restaurant business but I'd bet cash money he couldn't sight in a gun at 200 yards, much less 1000.

From: AZ8
02-Jan-22
“azelkhntr-The only thing I know about A3 is that they seem to have earned their money. Kuddos to them. If I ever draw my desired tag in the homeland I may just have to give them a call”

If you do, make sure you have onX on your phone and know where you are. Their top guide was convicted in 2020 for crossing into the White Mountain Apache Reservation with his client and killing a bull elk in 2015. The top guides defense? He claimed he didn’t know where he was! lmao! So, make sure you’re good with map reading and in the correct unit! :)

From: Ambush
02-Jan-22
Ok, I’ll ask for the third time. Who has seen the original, unedited video?

From: JL
02-Jan-22
""Am I supposed to believe that this guy has studied guns and ballistics, and developed or tested loads, sighted in and practiced at 1000 yards in preparation for this hunt? When it's pretty clear that he's a buy-a-trophy type? He may have 'earned' this animal in the restaurant business but I'd bet cash money he couldn't sight in a gun at 200 yards, much less 1000. ""

Dana....in that vid, it was said he made a 1000yd shot before on a "sheep". No telling how many long range shots under that he made. He said the rifle was a Gunwerks. As much hunting as he has done.....I suspect he knows his way around the range. I wouldn't sell him short just yet.

From: Jaquomo
02-Jan-22
Ambush, I saw a longer one a year ago, as did some others on here. Not sure if that was "unedited". That one appears to have been replaced by this one.

From: Rocky D
02-Jan-22
DanaC, This is all conjecture. The more you talk about sighting in for thousand yards just proves my point about knowledge of long distance shooting.

Joq, I don’t disagree with 99% percent of what you said but I do agree with the guide on calling the shot off due to bullet path with what appeared two lethal shots in the animal. I know you are not big gun guy so maybe you may want to check how much a 338 lapua drops from zero to a thousand yards. Then again, you may already know.

I even agree with not posting the video but I think that in the future threads like these will educate and provide the anti hunting community the ability to use hunters against one another. Ultimately , our comments may do more harm than the video itself. In actuality the video that I watched is not nearly as reprehensible at many that are on YouTube already.

Bowsites own so called meat hunters may provide more fuel to the flame than the so called “trophy “ hunter with their comments that will be used against hunters and hunting in their misunderstanding of what trophy hunting really all about.

From my experience with the meat hunters in my own family just couldn’t pass up a 2.5 year old and wait for a mature animal.

GG, I would hope that he would be extremely pleased in donating that much money to conservation.

From: Grey Ghost
02-Jan-22
Ambush, I watched the same longer version Lou did a year ago, and came away with the same reaction that he did.

Matt

From: Zbone
02-Jan-22
Corax_latrans - "They fill due to the vacuum created by diaphragmatic contraction. They are ALWAYS tight to the diaphragm."

Yeah, that's what I said but guess it wasn't perceived correctly...

Ambush - "Ok, I’ll ask for the third time. Who has seen the original, unedited video?"

Yeah me too... And also I'll ask for a third time, "was it a species of sage those bulls were feeding on"?

From: Ambush
02-Jan-22
Lou or GG: how much time elapsed between the first and second shot in the video you saw? And I'm assuming you saw three shots?

From: Bou'bound
03-Jan-22
Who has seen the original, unedited video?

From: JL
03-Jan-22
IMO...a good vid with a good perspective.......

03-Jan-22
As long as it is legal, no hunter can criticize or else they are hating? Did I get it right?

I agree that ethics can be subjective, disagree that discussing them will be the end of hunting. Thru discussion we can elevate our behavior before behavior is forced upon us by non-hunters. JMO , not hating anyone.

From: JL
03-Jan-22
I think there's a difference between criticizing subjective ethics and discussing subjecting ethics. The criticizing the subjective ethics piece overshadows the fact that a hunt was perfectly legal. We then wonder if the "criticizer" is where the problem lays. That opens the door to the often said idea that if you don't do it my way, you're doing it wrong.

03-Jan-22
JL,

Comes down to perceived style. I might share an opinion, or question another opinion, and there will be some who think it is criticism. We see that here frequently when people use emotionally loaded terminology to address where they disagree. I am at fault for doing this at times.

From: Junior
03-Jan-22
+1 HFW....Emotions are a roller coaster.

03-Jan-22
A circus! Just a circus! All the opinions on each detail are fine in there own way. I don't see much about HUNTING in this. With modern transportation, communication, sophisticated firearms, electronics etc. etc. this is not what we are about when we talk about the reason for, or the challenges of hunting. Having enough money to pay for all of that is irrelevant. Go back to basics and ask yourself if this is in any way HUNTING. Then ask yourself why people need to film and show everyone what "they" went out and did. How different is it as an accomplishment from shooting a fenced animal in a small compound? I don't see it Ridiculous

From: Ambush
03-Jan-22
"Who has seen the original, unedited video?"

My guess now is that not one person on this jury has seen the complete video. I'd say Rittenhouse lucked out with his jury selection. They actually watched it all.

From: SBH
03-Jan-22
How many of you actually listened to the PODCAST the OP posted?

From: Orion
07-Jan-22
"As I said earlier, I respect Jimmy's career accomplishments, but I couldn't be less jealous or envious of this non-hunt. I would love to know what Jimmy actually feels when he looks at that bull on his wall, considering what a small part he played in killing it. It would be a source of shame for me." Matt

Curious if you tell everyone that comes over to your house and sees your mount how you gut shot your bull and only recovered the antlers?

From: Grey Ghost
07-Jan-22
Curious if you’re ever going to get the facts straight about my hunt.

BTW, I told the entire story here. Why would I hesitate to tell it to guests in my house? I’m proud of that hunt, even with the outcome. What don’t you get about that?

Matt

07-Jan-22
Matt,

I respect your honesty with regards to what happened. Others have not always been so transparent. And as you personally know, I have had a similar experience with a whitetail.

07-Jan-22
Matt, Frank; it appears some people here are such good amazing hunters they’ve never mad a bad sub par shot. I’m thinking the reason probably is more likely they make more sub par shots than they do good ones but arnt man enough to admit when something goes wrong on their hunt because the internet might think their a bad hunter. If you hunt long enough, and shoot enough animals, especially with a bow, you are bound to make a bad shot on an animal. Weather operator error or the animal moved at the last second as you let your arrow go.

From: APauls
07-Jan-22
There was hunting involved...just not by the trigger man.

It's kind of like a metaphor for your President. There is thinking involved - just not by the mouthpiece ;)

From: deerhunter72
07-Jan-22
And I thought this was about a sandwich shop...

From: Dale06
07-Jan-22
I always amazes me when people talk about how other people feel or should feel, because the other person killed an animal in a different way than you/I would. I know only the gist of the JJ elk kill story. Not my cup of tea, at all. I don’t know how he “feels” about the gut shot kill, the animal being pre scouted, , I don’t know how he should “feel”, and I don’t care how he “feels.” And Jersey Mike’s makes a better sandwich.

From: Tilzbow
07-Jan-22
Capriotti’s better than either JJ or Jersey Mikes but I try to frequent local delicatessens so as to not make franchise owners rich so they can blow their money on things others disagree with….

Funny how some are spouting off about gut shot animals, long recoveries, spoiled meat, etc. If they haven’t had it happen they haven’t been hunting long enough or are simply vastly superior to us mere mortals.

From: Orion
07-Jan-22
Grey ghost I just find it funny you wanna criticize Jimmy John and hope he feels bad looking at his mount. I was just curious if you tell people the real story about yours when they see your mount. Maybe you should worry more about your shot placement then other peoples.

From: Bou'bound
07-Jan-22
Why the rancor?

From: Grey Ghost
07-Jan-22

Once again Orion, you’re clueless. I suppose you’ve never had an animal move just as you released. And you’ve always made perfect killing shots. Right.

Is my 2020 elk hunt, which received dozens of positive comments and compliments here, the best you got? Surely not.

Matt

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