Spotters sitting with a bull for 10 days and then shooting it at 1,000 yards is not my thing but I can't hate on a guy that made his own way and chooses to hunt different than I do.
Matt
ummm. So he pays some guys to scout for him, for ten days, then he shows up and shoots. Killing? Yes. Sniping. Ok. Hunting? Bullsnot.
I can explain. The founder of Jimmy John's Sandwiches paid $225K for a special "Governors tag" in AZ. The tag is not limited by season dates, location, or weapon. He hired a small army of scouts to locate and keep track of the biggest bull they could find. They camped out on the bull for several days until he shed his velvet. Then they hauled Jimmy's fat ass in on a mule to shoot it at 1000 yards. There were over 20 people involved in the post kill recovery and chores, while Jimmy sat and watched in the shade of a tarp that was hung for him.
Matt
A team of hired spotters sits on a bull for 10 days. They bring in old Jimmy on a horse, who is so morbidly obese he would struggle to walk to the mailbox. They set him up for a 1000+ yard shot. He gut shoots the bull. The bull lays there suffering for some period of time in obvious pain and distress (the video was edited so as not to show the whole suffering episode) and they won't let him shoot it again because he might accidentally hit an antler. They are more worried about antler score than putting the suffering bull out of his misery, even though Jimmy is capable of hitting the bull again at that range. Finally, after a period of time (hours? nobody knows) the bull dies, they ride Jimmy over to it, and a celebration ensues. Jimmy goes home with a huge elk mount for his trophy home.
Nothing about the whole event was "ethical hunting" IMO.
I fixed that there for you…
Makes me wonder how he got word from the spotters where to show up so that he could drag his carcass off the horse long enough to pull out his rifle.
Are we truly expected to believe that somebody rode all the way out to the trailhead to escort him back in without the use of any electronic communications whatsoever?
“ That said, there are definitely basins a guy cant access without blowing everything out UNLESS HE’S REALLY FREAKING GOOD and the only EASY way is the long shot.”
We’re talking about animals with a brain the size of a man’s fist. They are not mythological creatures with supernatural powers of observation and the lions in those places seem to make a living at 20 yards an in….
As a rule, the harder a place is to hunt, the bigger the animals will be if you can find them there. That is supposed to be part of The Deal in Hunting.
This guy just paid his way around every conceivable obstacle. May as well have called in a drone strike.
Frankly, I think the guy who shot one off of his back porch over the corn pile put in more effort… And personally, I would rather that the non-hunting public had no idea whatsoever that people like this actually exist. That is not a brush with which I would want to be painted.
Im not huge into longe range shooting either, not my thing. And how this situation played out didnt really sit super well within me. But there are lots of legal hunting methods that arent in my wheelhouse and if legal, i may think under my breath “ehhhh, not a fan” but im not gonna get ignorant and spew such hateful words to the public.
In all honesty, i know its part of the game, it happens but i guess if i had to choose id rather take a guy killing an elk at long range with a gun vs a guy gut shooting an elk with a bow, taking up the trail too soon and losing all the meat but packing the rack out with his skinny ass on his e-bike to display the horns….
Woof…that feels a little harsh….but i reread ur post and it seems to be acceptable for some to talk about ppl like that….
this is true "The only two things good about this episode are that Jimmy is a self-made entrepreneur, and the Gov tag money went to a presumably good cause."
LOL. I'd take the 30 days of scouting and 28 days of hunting I did on my own, even with the outcome, over killing a bull the way Jimmy did. And for the record, I'm far from "skinny", but I can still put my boots on myself.
Unlike your misrepresentation of my hunt, was there anything I misrepresented about Jimmy's so-called "hunt"?
Matt
The finders fee for the gov tag is also huge for family's in AZ!
“ That said, there are definitely basins a guy cant access without blowing everything out UNLESS HE’S REALLY FREAKING GOOD and the only EASY way is the long shot.”
You can be the best hunter out there buddy, but remember your the guide and Jimmy has the tag.
We’re talking about animals with a brain the size of a man’s fist. They are not mythological creatures with supernatural powers of observation and the lions in those places seem to make a living at 20 yards an in….
And how many of those big bulls do you have?
There is an enormous ethical gulf between the two. GG attempted to do the right thing and failed. Jimmy and the Army refused to do the right thing, and succeeded in portraying themselves as unethical jerks. I blame Jimmy for that. He hired the outfitter and the mercenaries. He controlled the decision.
Can we at least get the facts of my hunt correct? I didn't "gut shoot" my bull, I shot him squarely in the liver because he took a step at the moment I released. And I didn't "take up the trail too soon". I watched him bed down for over an hour before he got up and began walking away. I attempted to follow and put another arrow in him, but only bumped him twice, before backing out. I found him 2 days later after the meat had spoiled. I'd challenge anyone who claims I did anything wrong. You're damn right I hauled his antlers out to display in my great room. I earned that privilege, even though it's bittersweet.
Now, can we get back Jimmy's hunt?
Matt
But I mean, by this point everybody around here knows that the only accurate representation of any situation would be how you describe it. So give me a moment to adjust my thinking…..
So, your whole problem with my description of Jimmy's so-called "hunt" is that I called him a "fat ass?" Was Lou's "morbidly obese" description more palatable to you? How would you describe a guy in his physical condition? Big boned? Well fed? Plump? Rotund? Let me know, and I will edit my post.
Matt
Agreed, but I just listened to him on a podcast and realized that although I don't like these high priced jump the line tags, there is a lot of good that is done with the money rich guys like JJ give to conservation.
You see, Hillary was correct- it does “take a village !”
Continue to do you, my dude. Thicken that skin a lil tho if u wanna be the foremost opinion on every subject tho. If i was always right and knew it id like to think i could use nicer words and if someone brought it up that i didnt, things would roll off my back a lil better. Im probably terribly wrong tho, so i should digress.
And the alternative is a world without virtues, ethics or any semblance of morals or even the rudiments of Good or Evil. Is that your preference?
I never thought that having a sense of Right & Wrong was strictly a “Liberal” thing.
Also I have an issue with too many people ganging up on an animal
states should not allow that many people to be with a tag holder
I don’t know what the appropriate number is but it should only be a handful per tagged hunter
Imagine if you were a regular hunter who had waited years to draw a tag in that area. You had done your homework, scouted hard, and found the same bull that Jimmy killed. All you had to do was wait for the season to start for the chance at a bull of a lifetime. Suddenly, a hired army of scouts moves in, finds the same bull, and camps out on it until the wealthy shooter can get there and kill it, all before any season even started. Would that upset you?
Matt
Look, in my mind, if we can't speak out against unethical hunting policies and practices like this one for fear of being labeled jealous, self-righteous, or pompous, what the hell are we trying to protect and save for future hunters? Should we just accept the inevitable, and let money dictate the future of hunting? Count me out. And that comes from a hunter who could afford to do what Jimmy did, but would never even consider it. That's not bragging, just fact.
Matt
What I bet they will not support is allowing an animal to needlessly suffer so as to not risk a trophy score. Trophy hunting is doing more harm than good IMO. A thread discussing that would be interesting.
What I do with my wealth doesn't affect policies and practices that affect fellow hunters who might not be as wealthy. Just look at the BSC thread. Many well-off hunters have expressed their dismay over the prices of outfitted hunts that they could afford in past years, but can't anymore. Even Pat expressed his dismay that his kids will never enjoy the hunting experiences that he did because of outfitter prices. If you can't see the slippery slope hunting is on due to greed and money, then you're not looking.
Matt
In a capitalist society a limited resource will demand a premium price. The horse is out of the barn and it ain't going back in.
Do you know for fact the AZ governors tags raise money for conservation? Or does that money go into a general fund that is used for anything that the state legislators deem appropriate? To be honest, I haven't looked into it in detail. I do know a lot of Colorado's hunting and fishing revenues don't go directly into conservation.
Matt
You mean like fuel? Yeah, a limited resource which hasn't changed price in inflation adjusted dollars for decades, but everyone howls like monkeys when it increases 50 cents per gallon. Why not the same outrage for outfitted hunting prices?
Matt
Ummmm…. Because they can’t blame it on “Biden”???
Watched this video, was this bull eating on sage?
Have outfitted prices raised 50% immediately after a new President was elected?
Also, why do you care about outfitted hunts? You would never do an outfitted hunt!
they let that Bull lay there, gut shot. instead of using all the ammo they had to kill it. because they were worried about hitting the antlers. They should’ve used all their ammo, then when out of ammo, walked up there and used a knife.
Of course we have all had animals that died in other than optimal ways. but that is when it’s out of our control. Not in plain sight within our control to stop
And I hope that Bull is not allowed in B&C because that was not fair chase!
That was a class act by the vid poster Trent....he took the high road and still got to be part of it. Other people outside of those involved also seen this bull and were following it too. According to the folks there, the first shot hit it in the shoulder. The second shot looked like the gut/leg area but not sure where. Judging from the behavior I seen, I would guess it was going to die from the first shot. From the time of the first shot to the time it dropped was ~1:30 seconds. Wounded animals sometimes take a while to die...it happens and we all know that. We just happened to see it this time in the vid. Think how many times all of us shot animals and they did the exact same thing but we never saw it because the animal ran off into the bush. IMO it's kinda hard to be critical when I know some of the critters I shot may have done the same thing but I (we) didn't see it....especially on the ones I/we wounded and didn't recover. He maybe/possibly could have took a 3rd shot at it when it tried to stand....but it quickly dropped back down for good. There was ~9 seconds between the time it tried to stand up until it laid down for good. If I was in that scenario...I probably would not have be able to get shot off either with a bow or rifle in 9 seconds.
It's easy to watch someone else's vid and pick it apart because the hunter did (or didn't do) something I may have done differently. I'd say congrats to JJ for pulling off the shot and him giving credit to everyone for making it possible. He has made a 1000+ yard kill shot before so he does have some skill and equipment set to do that. He seemed very humble in saying he is not a great hunter but does get to hunt with great hunters. If ya have the coin to drop $350K-something on a Gov's tag...good luck to ya.
I haven't watched the edited version of the video, but I'm sure the most offensive parts were edited out. I know in the unedited version Jimmy was instructed not to shoot again because he might "hit the horns". I only recall one shot, but maybe there was 2. Regardless, they let that animal suffer unnecessarily long, when they had the means to end it sooner.
I do agree with you, however, by the nature of the weapons we use for bow hunting, animals often do take a long time to expire. But there's really nothing we can do about that. Usually we get one shot and hope that we place the arrow in a lethal spot. That's not the case in Jimmy's non-hunt. He could have emptied his weapon, even reloaded, and kept shooting until the animal was dead.
But that's not really the most troubling part about this non-hunt to me.
Matt
Generally what they do is define UN-ethical behavior and 'regulate accordingly'. Keep in mind that 'legally allowed' is the *minimum* standard of ethicality, not the optimum. What JJ did was probably 'legal' but 'ethical'?
That's why we as hunters, need to be careful, because we don't get to define what is legal or ethical. Nonhunting decision-makers decide those boundaries for us.
Is sitting in a stand after a shot waiting for the animal to die unethical? The animal could be alive for another 15 minutes (pick a time) yet we didn't go do a follow up. We all talk about waiting but we don't criticize ourselves if that is unethical. Of course I'm being rhetorical....but the idea is to be careful criticizing others for something we may be doing ourselves in a different fashion.
Matt....is there another, unedited vid out there somewhere that shows a different context from the vid above?
I don’t know, but I doubt it. The original video was highly criticized for good reason. In the edited version, you can see where they cut the video to shorten the length of time they watched the suffering bull with no follow up shots. They also cut out where the outfitter advises Jimmy not to shoot again because he might hit the antlers.
Matt
JJ- “Can I have another bullet Willie, just in case?” A3- “Just let him be, we don’t want to hit that antler.”
DanaC's Link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf0JXZqzsyE
You can't argue with this. Well I am sure some will but either way I am still posting
https://www.instagram.com/p/CYIFRXxMkFd/?utm_medium=copy_link
I'd harbor much more disrespect for the guide than JJ.
“ Also, understand that whatever you can or cannot do is probably a direct result of what you have put into life. You make choices and you make trade offs that in the end affect the outcome of your life.”
So we do not all start off on a level playing field…. but the “winners” are allowed to congratulate themselves, and the “also rans” should stop whining and take a long look in the mirror…
Yeah.
No, because as they say, your Ethics are what you do when nobody is watching. “Editing” out the unflattering parts is just lying about what you did because you know full well that you fell well short of commonly accepted standards of behavior and you don’t want the world to see how badly you screwed up.
And yes, there is a HUGE Ethics gap between sitting quietly and allowing time for an animal (which has fled your field of view) to expire in relative peace so that you won’t bump it and lose it… and standing around whooping an hollering within earshot of an animal (thereby stressing it out further) when you could easily end it.
The former seeks to minimize stress, suffering and the potential for loss of edible meat, and the latter dismisses the animal’s suffering as inconsequential relative to the potential loss of “score” and the opportunity for personal gain by staking a claim to credit on the “record”.
“ They shouldn’t have let him suffer but the real crime is showing it on video for the world to see.”
Disagree. The “crime” was what it was. The video is just Crime Scene Evidence.
I’m not saying that it’s not Unethical to do things which cast others in a poor light. Or to publicize them. Or to do so for profit. It is.
I agree about ethics I just don’t expect others to have the same ethics you or I do. If your ethics are poor at least have the decency to not portray that image of hunting to the world. If a had to stick an animal so many times he looked like a porcupine running around I wouldn’t air the video. Same here, no laws broken just poor ethics and poor taste. Don’t paint all hunters with that brush by airing it.
would that justify the extended death for some and not for others.
has anyone out there ever, when gun hunting, not put in an immediately killing follow-up shot on an obviously dead on feet animal in order to salvage more meat?
You have a link to the unedited version... Was there 2 or 3 shots fired? Maybe I'm not seeing it but those clips that was posted I did not see a gut shot animal... I only seen 2 shots, the first one the bull was standing broadside, and if he was already hit, there was a blood spot was just behind the front shoulder almost a perfect aiming point for an arrow placement... After the first shot I heard, was a great shot in the shoulder area, that bull was already dead on his feet, am not sure of the second shot cause he was out of view, it may have been in the guts but wouldn't have mattered, it was not the first shot I viewed...
The second shot was a good shot. What was edited out was the first shot and what happened between that and the fatal shoulder shot. The previous version is not up anymore, that I can find.
Like I said earlier, my issue is with the guide not letting JJ take another shot, as JJ requested, in case he might hit the antler. It was JJs bull, JJ's money, and the decision to shoot again should have been his alone.
Hunters make bad shots, whether at 10 yards or 1000. I've been involved with over 100 elk kills and have seen every shot possibility imaginable. Don't have an issue with that because JJ obviously practices at that range and the bull was standing still at the first shot. But to hear a guide tell a hunter to forget his conscience for the sake of antlers is something that strikes a sour note.
I've seen that exact hit a number of times on elk, with rifle and bow, and have done the necropsy (assuming the hunter didn't blow him out before making a killing shot, or after finding him dead in his bed). Often times the hunter thinks he made a "great shot", especially with a bow, because most 3D targets show that spot as the 8 ring. I lost a bull with that shot placement (bow) many years ago because I mistakenly thought I hit lung, and followed up too soon, bumping him.
Also, they don't show the angle the bull was standing when that shot hit. Quartering away, he probably got one lung. But that part was edited out. It was a fatal shot, eventually, but the tell is him standing there locked up, immobile, with his head outstretched, "a little while later".
But like I said, my beef is not with the shot, but with the guide not letting JJ act as his conscience and ethics dictated. JJ wanted to do the right thing. Also with the creative editing to clip out the footage of the first shot, but creative editing almost always takes place after the hunt is over. That's Show Business.
Am not a fan of 1,000 yard shots on such a magnificent animal or any big game animal for that matter, nor a crew of spotters keeping tabs for a wealthy client, like this bull and the Spider bull, but just didn't find the video I watched that offensive that those are howling about... Kinda like to see the first shot, the angle, etc...
Nope. They fill due to the vacuum created by diaphragmatic contraction. They are ALWAYS tight to the diaphragm.
The whole thing was a shit-show. There’s NO EFFING WAY that ”jj” paid enough for that tag to compensate for the damage that this mess did to Hunting.
Reminds me of the old bit ascribed to Winston Churchill…
Supposedly he had offended some woman - who told him she was offended - and he said something along the lines of “Yes, but you would still sleep with me for £1,000,000, wouldn’t you?“ And she agreed that she probably would.
Then he asked her if she would do it for £1 and she exclaimed “Of course not! What do you think I am? A prostitute??“
“We’ve already established that. Now we’re negotiating price.”
So I’m just wondering… What is Our Price?
Sorry, but that is just hyperbolic bull crap. Not really a Cecil the Lion type a deal.
How many obviously made a bad hit on an an animal but allowed the video to be edited and published to make it appear that the first shot never happened, and the second shot became the "first" shot?
You are correct that this was a much lower profile than Cecil, but I think you’re underestimating the cost/value of something like this to an outfit like PETA.
As Media budgets go, $225k is peanuts.
jmo, ymmv
I can't muster any hate for JJ. He wants to hunt but is limited by time and physical ability, but has the money (that he earned in the hallowed free enterprise system) to hunt some animals. I know some guys that fat that still move quite well, so I'm inclined to believe he has other disabilities besides that. It's doesn't take several tries to get off a donkey just from being overweight. JJ wanted to shoot again, as he should have.
I do not like long range shooting on animals. On the second shot (that was shown) you can see how much the bull moved from trigger pull to impact.
The big group of guys celebrating is counter to everything that I value about hunting. Look at beav's or Hunt's pic thread and see what it really is about. Mossback type hunts are just a business, very far removed from a hunter and a guide living and hunting together for a couple weeks in the wild.
I don't watch TV hunters as most are just as fake as any other projected media personalities, from cooking to home improvement.
In this case the guide should be castigated for his selfish decision. Very unprofessional.
JJ has probably "Donated" more money to wildlife conservation than 95% of the posters on here together including their tag cost. I sat next to a table at a Reno Sheep Show a couple years ago, that bid and bought almost $700, 000 worth of sheep hunts, plus some other stuff. A couple of Bowsiter's there did the same. Any one of them could have just bought ten hunts for that price. There's more to it then just "some lazy fat ass buying a zoo animal". Some people just put their money where their mouth is. Just because we don't have that money doesn't mean we can hate on those that do.
After watching the video in slo-mo and pause several times, I can agree with Lou that there is a previous shot that is not shown. But before I judge JJ, I'd want to see all the evidence and know the circumstance and time lapse. Maybe the bull moved behind some trees after the first shot and there was no opportunity until he moved into the open? I'd also guess the "first" shot as a very low, single lung.
I'd hate to be on trial with some of you guys in the jury. "Lets hang him now, we can have a fair trail later".
As far as rich guys shooting giant critters….. Reading Chuck Adam’s Life at Full Draw, and talking to him in person completely changed my thoughts on that. Those two guys are obviously totally different but because of Chuck I don’t judge. Every knows or thinks they know about how much money they have but don’t stop to consider the commitment and sacrifices.
I do know people who have bought success like that and have more money than brains or hunting skills. But I try to maintain the to each his own way of thinking even though myself and probably most of us wouldn’t do it that way even if we could. Hats off to those of us who would rather just hunt public land longer if we were billionaires. . Haha
I’m sure I will have plenty.
“It’s tough to handle this fortune and fame. Everybody’s so different but I haven’t changed”
Are you JJ’s brother, or just a big investor? Kidding?
No jealousy here. This subject was brought up before and I based my opinion off of the original video. I don’t know how anyone can conclude from the original video anything other than the optics do hunters no favors.
The assistance he had, the special tag, not of that bothers me. Just think the video should have never made it into the public realm.
As far as misinformation, there were three shots, not two. The first gut shot was "dead on his feet" but nobody knows how long that would take. I've experienced arrow-shot bulls with that hit that live for many hours. A rifle hunter I was guiding made that shot, took off after the bull before I could get there, and we never found him.
Unless you have seen the unscrubbed video, you really don't know all that went on. None of us know what really went on between the first shot and when Jimmy was permitted to take the second shot, which looked like a killing shot, but hard to tell from 3/5 of a mile away. Many bowhunters think they've put a "perfect shot" into a bull at 30 yards, and it turns out to be not where they thought.
If not putting a finishing shot into an animal when you have the opportunity is "ethical" to you, then that's your choice. If Jimmy was such an awesome shot as some of you think, he should be able to thread the needle, and he wanted to try. I give him props for that.
But remember this: hunters no longer get to decide what is ethical. Those boundaries lie in the hands of nonhunting voters. Not PETA or HSUS, but normal people who don't care about hunting so long as it is "sporting" and the animal doesn't suffer needlessly.
Matt
Am I supposed to believe that this guy has studied guns and ballistics, and developed or tested loads, sighted in and practiced at 1000 yards in preparation for this hunt? When it's pretty clear that he's a buy-a-trophy type? He may have 'earned' this animal in the restaurant business but I'd bet cash money he couldn't sight in a gun at 200 yards, much less 1000.
If you do, make sure you have onX on your phone and know where you are. Their top guide was convicted in 2020 for crossing into the White Mountain Apache Reservation with his client and killing a bull elk in 2015. The top guides defense? He claimed he didn’t know where he was! lmao! So, make sure you’re good with map reading and in the correct unit! :)
Dana....in that vid, it was said he made a 1000yd shot before on a "sheep". No telling how many long range shots under that he made. He said the rifle was a Gunwerks. As much hunting as he has done.....I suspect he knows his way around the range. I wouldn't sell him short just yet.
Matt
Yeah, that's what I said but guess it wasn't perceived correctly...
Ambush - "Ok, I’ll ask for the third time. Who has seen the original, unedited video?"
Yeah me too... And also I'll ask for a third time, "was it a species of sage those bulls were feeding on"?
I agree that ethics can be subjective, disagree that discussing them will be the end of hunting. Thru discussion we can elevate our behavior before behavior is forced upon us by non-hunters. JMO , not hating anyone.
Comes down to perceived style. I might share an opinion, or question another opinion, and there will be some who think it is criticism. We see that here frequently when people use emotionally loaded terminology to address where they disagree. I am at fault for doing this at times.
My guess now is that not one person on this jury has seen the complete video. I'd say Rittenhouse lucked out with his jury selection. They actually watched it all.
Curious if you tell everyone that comes over to your house and sees your mount how you gut shot your bull and only recovered the antlers?
BTW, I told the entire story here. Why would I hesitate to tell it to guests in my house? I’m proud of that hunt, even with the outcome. What don’t you get about that?
Matt
I respect your honesty with regards to what happened. Others have not always been so transparent. And as you personally know, I have had a similar experience with a whitetail.
It's kind of like a metaphor for your President. There is thinking involved - just not by the mouthpiece ;)
Funny how some are spouting off about gut shot animals, long recoveries, spoiled meat, etc. If they haven’t had it happen they haven’t been hunting long enough or are simply vastly superior to us mere mortals.
Once again Orion, you’re clueless. I suppose you’ve never had an animal move just as you released. And you’ve always made perfect killing shots. Right.
Is my 2020 elk hunt, which received dozens of positive comments and compliments here, the best you got? Surely not.
Matt
