Trophy Hunting/Pro-Con
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
Missouribreaks 02-Jan-22
dnovo 02-Jan-22
T Mac 02-Jan-22
xtroutx 02-Jan-22
JL 02-Jan-22
Missouribreaks 02-Jan-22
Ambush 02-Jan-22
LINK 02-Jan-22
Corax_latrans 02-Jan-22
Rocky D 02-Jan-22
Charlie Rehor 02-Jan-22
Dale06 02-Jan-22
Slate 02-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 02-Jan-22
hawkeye in PA 02-Jan-22
xtroutx 02-Jan-22
Jaquomo 02-Jan-22
Jaquomo 02-Jan-22
skull 02-Jan-22
Genesis 02-Jan-22
JL 02-Jan-22
Jaquomo 02-Jan-22
LINK 02-Jan-22
Jaquomo 02-Jan-22
Rocky D 02-Jan-22
TGbow 02-Jan-22
itshot 02-Jan-22
Rocky D 02-Jan-22
sitO 02-Jan-22
Nick Muche 02-Jan-22
Bowboy 02-Jan-22
EmbryOklahoma 02-Jan-22
sitO 02-Jan-22
sitO 02-Jan-22
sitO 02-Jan-22
wyobullshooter 02-Jan-22
RD in WI 02-Jan-22
wyobullshooter 02-Jan-22
RD in WI 02-Jan-22
wyobullshooter 02-Jan-22
Ambush 02-Jan-22
Bou'bound 03-Jan-22
DanaC 03-Jan-22
Rocky D 03-Jan-22
Huntaholic 03-Jan-22
JL 03-Jan-22
M.Pauls 03-Jan-22
Fuzzy 03-Jan-22
M.Pauls 03-Jan-22
Missouribreaks 03-Jan-22
Charlie Rehor 03-Jan-22
Bake 03-Jan-22
Missouribreaks 03-Jan-22
M.Pauls 03-Jan-22
Ambush 03-Jan-22
bigeasygator 03-Jan-22
Ambush 03-Jan-22
goyt 03-Jan-22
Jaquomo 03-Jan-22
Bake 03-Jan-22
Jaquomo 03-Jan-22
Missouribreaks 03-Jan-22
[email protected] 03-Jan-22
Rocky D 03-Jan-22
Charlie Rehor 03-Jan-22
Bowfreak 03-Jan-22
[email protected] 03-Jan-22
Rocky D 03-Jan-22
Ollie 03-Jan-22
Jaquomo 03-Jan-22
goyt 03-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 03-Jan-22
ahunter76 03-Jan-22
ahunter76 03-Jan-22
goyt 03-Jan-22
Lee 03-Jan-22
Rocky D 03-Jan-22
Jaquomo 03-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 03-Jan-22
Ambush 03-Jan-22
Jaquomo 03-Jan-22
Ambush 03-Jan-22
Ambush 03-Jan-22
Ambush 03-Jan-22
Nick Muche 03-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 03-Jan-22
Jaquomo 03-Jan-22
Grey Ghost 03-Jan-22
Corax_latrans 03-Jan-22
TD 04-Jan-22
pav 04-Jan-22
Rocky D 04-Jan-22
Rocky D 04-Jan-22
DanaC 04-Jan-22
Missouribreaks 04-Jan-22
goyt 04-Jan-22
cnelk 04-Jan-22
newfi1946moose 04-Jan-22
Rocky D 04-Jan-22
Rocky D 04-Jan-22
Rocky D 04-Jan-22
IdyllwildArcher 04-Jan-22
Jaquomo 04-Jan-22
rattling_junkie 05-Jan-22
Rocky D 05-Jan-22
Rocky D 05-Jan-22
Rocky D 05-Jan-22
Rocky D 05-Jan-22
rattling_junkie 05-Jan-22
Rocky D 05-Jan-22
goyt 07-Jan-22
Jaquomo 07-Jan-22
Rocky D 07-Jan-22
Missouribreaks 07-Jan-22
goyt 07-Jan-22
Rocky D 07-Jan-22
goyt 07-Jan-22
Jaquomo 07-Jan-22
goyt 07-Jan-22
Jaquomo 07-Jan-22
SteveB 07-Jan-22
Rocky D 08-Jan-22
Jaquomo 08-Jan-22
Rocky D 08-Jan-22
RT 08-Jan-22
Missouribreaks 08-Jan-22
RT 08-Jan-22
02-Jan-22
Numerous threads touching on it…is it beneficial to our passion’s future, does it benefit herd health, is it about ego?

More harm than good?

Personally I have harvested at least 10 (well above the minimum) Whitetails that if measured would qualify. None have been officially measured, never will while I am alive. But I am a P&Y Club member.

Personally I think threads like JJ’s and others here have the potential to further erode the non-hunting community’s support for us. Like the lift kits pointed out on another thread, much of this is about ego.

I read guys backslapping each other for killing a nice deer, which they do every 4-5 years or so. What’s so great about luck? If you are out there enough, and hunt where they exist, it wii happen to you. Only 3 of the above mentioned deer I knew about and was targeting, the others were luck.

If it’s your thing do it, but don’t broadcast it to the world. I know guys who never post their monsters, much respect for them.

I could list more negatives…

02-Jan-22
It is not the size of the animal killed, the potential hunter attitude becomes the issue. Record books, and jealousy, create quite the atmosphere. Most low income hunters tend to despise wealthy hunters with more hunting opportunity, that becomes another dynamic. This is all just a normal part of what we see in every day life, and will always be the case.

From: dnovo
02-Jan-22
I killed my best 2 bucks in the last 3 seasons. First one was shot 20 yards from a trail cam that had been up for 2 months but didn’t have a single pic of him on it. This year I got one bigger that I didn’t know existed. I like it that way. I don’t enter them in the book. They’re special to me cause I got them on my property in an area not known for big deer. When I was a teenager it was major news if you just found a deer track.

From: T Mac
02-Jan-22
Allen Bolen did a piece on Instagram yesterday that I thought was excellent. He is a trophy hunter and passed numerous animals of several species this year and his results regarding tags punched was dismal but he had the time of his life trying to outsmart the smartest of the herd. It might be for ego but I do not sense that with him…..others different story we’re all different. I will say the holier than thou armchair quarterbacks, because he didn’t do it the way I do, will erode hunting more and many are right here on this site among us.

From: xtroutx
02-Jan-22
I see nothing wrong with posting a pic. As far as being beneficial to our future, I don't think it matters. Not going to change many people minds now a days on much. If you support hunting, a respectful picture is alright in my book. If your anti-hunting then you will get the opposite effect. As far as a pat on the back, it's nice to get compliments from your piers no matter what the subject is. When I was young the whole neighborhood would stop by to see some ones nice buck hanging outside, a hand shake and a congrats was just standard. I have never been one to cater to people because their opinion is different than mine. If people don't like it so be it, it is their choice to look or not. jmo.

From: JL
02-Jan-22
IMO....there should be no shame in a person's desire to shoot big ones or little ones or does/females. Part of the draw to hunting and being in the woods is doing what you want when you want.

I also believe the commercialization of shooting bigs ones has led too many folks down the path of bad decision-making. It also leads to bad policy-making too....IMO of course.

02-Jan-22
You may not change a made up mind, but you certainly can influence those with developing minds. They will come of voting age, a new batch each and every year. Focus on this group.

From: Ambush
02-Jan-22
This is the thread that peta and the anti's love. Screen shot after screen shot of hunters basically beating up on so called "trophy hunters".

BC lost the grizzly hunt with "evidence" from the main BC hunting site supporting them.

"I'm a hunter and don't support trophy hunting."

"I'm an ethical meat hunter".

"I don't support killing for sport".

"Why kill off the biggest and best just for your ego?"

I went to the website of the main org pushing the ban and there were dozens of comment screen shots from the BC Hunting forums. All poking holes in our boat.

The anti's could demonstrate, from our own words, that even 90% of hunters did not support the grizzly hunt.

They don't need your pics.

From: LINK
02-Jan-22
If it weren’t for trophy hunting where would hunting be? If you take away hunters that hunt for trophy, their money and outfitters there would be little financial backing to the hunting community.

02-Jan-22
Good, polite discussion, thanks.

Ambush, you have a really good point; however, I think Link’s view offsets it. And the antis are reading both.

02-Jan-22
Taking “trophy” animals is not a problem. It’s what people are willing to do in order to get one and allowing the non-hunting public to get the impression that that’s all that we care about that is screwing the pooch.

Every person I have ever talk to who reacted negatively towards the idea of hunting has had a change of heart as soon as I point out that they eat meat, too. The difference between me and them is that I am willing to take personal responsibility for the deaths of some of the animals that I eat. Most honest people are pretty quick to see the hypocrisy of their position, so even though they are still uncomfortable with the idea of doing it themselves, they can’t condemn the idea of taking one’s own meat.

But as soon as “trophies“ become involved, it changes the channel to All Ego, All the Time, and not many people can get on board with killing an animal for bragging rights, which is all that most non-hunters are prepared to believe is involved in killing any kind of predator.

That’s a failure of imagination on their part, to be sure. If it were made clear to no -hunters that Wanton Waste laws apply equally to bears & lions, that would re-frame the conversation for them real quick.

And if WW laws don’t apply to lions & bears…. Maybe they should?

From: Rocky D
02-Jan-22
I think that Links view supports Ambushe’s post!

02-Jan-22
I love shooting trophies and I love shooting horse head does. I am a bow hunter. There’s no “pro/con” for me. Well shot Arrows going thru animals is my addiction.

From: Dale06
02-Jan-22
I have killed a few, several species, that I’m sure meet P&Y minimums. They’ve never been measured. I’m just not interested in measuring and putting them in the book. Does trophy hunting hurt or help us, in my view, it does not help us in the eyes of those that don’t like our sport.

From: Slate
02-Jan-22
You can list tons of negatives and yet I can list so many more positives. When you look for the negative you find it. I love it all. I think we should just enjoy what we like and embrace others for what they like. It’s great to be different.

From: Grey Ghost
02-Jan-22
When I first started bow hunting the prevailing attitudes were “any animal with a bow is a trophy” and “you can’t eat antlers” and “it all looks the same in the freezer”.

I miss those days.

Matt

02-Jan-22
Slate,

Agree 100 percent that we hunters should support whatever someone decides to legally do.

02-Jan-22
"…is it beneficial to our passion’s future? No, I don't believe so.

From: xtroutx
02-Jan-22
Missouribreaks, and most of those young voters that will become hunters will choose the x-bow. As you know, here in Wi, that is a bigger threat to shortening my bow season than the anti's.

From: Jaquomo
02-Jan-22
69% of nonhunters surveyed are against "trophy hunting". More than 70% are ok with hunting for food or population control. That the two intersect in our minds as hunters matters not to nonhunting voters. To them it is either/or.

From: Jaquomo
02-Jan-22
And now, here in CO, we have nonhunting Wildlife Commissioners making hunting policy, about which they clearly don't understand. Some of them were appointed by the animal rights activist husband of the governor. One was a lawyer for a big animal rights organization. The others just go along, mostly. Now voters are likely to vote in the upcoming election to end mountain lion and bobcat harvest. It is "trophy hunting". We are so screwed in this state.

From: skull
02-Jan-22

skull's Link
My way of thinking

From: Genesis
02-Jan-22
In Mississippi,a trophy hunter is defined as someone who only shoots mallards and gadwalls.Most western guys hate trophy hunting while eastern guys are pro trophy hunting but are not affected locally by it so are indifferent.

From: JL
02-Jan-22
Before this runs off the tracks....better define what "trophy hunting" is. I sense it means different things to different folks.

From: Jaquomo
02-Jan-22
This is how nonhunters define "trophy hunting". "Trophy hunting is the shooting of big game animals such as rhinos, elephants, big cats and bears for one’s pleasure. These animals are killed for their body parts to be displayed as ornaments to show off one’s power and success of the hunt."

From: LINK
02-Jan-22
Jaq I disagree. I don’t kill skunks and raccoons for sport, trophy, fur or meat. When there are too many in my neighborhood they come eat my chickens and try to breed my grandmothers Pomeranian. Killing predators doesn’t have to be about trophy.

From: Jaquomo
02-Jan-22
I didn't make that up. That's the definition used by some "conservation" websites. There are different variations, but that one was pretty much in line with the middle of the road definitions. ARA sites are a bit harsher.

Where you differ is that you aren't killing them for pleasure (ok, maybe a little) or to display their body parts to show off your power.

From: Rocky D
02-Jan-22
“ "Trophy hunting is the shooting of big game animals such as rhinos, elephants, big cats and bears for one’s pleasure. These animals are killed for their body parts to be displayed as ornaments to show off one’s power and success of the hunt."

Misguided meat hunters helped write their definition. For me a trophy hunter is one who pursues mature animals or as they say “a good representative of the species “.

Maybe this is one of the areas that we hunters could educate the non hunters who are open minded enough to be educated. The loons will always be loons.

From: TGbow
02-Jan-22
What Rick Koepp said.

I dont think there is anything wrong with posting pics and celebrating when you take an animal. I could care less what the media or Hollywood or the anti crowd thinks...they will never accept hunting no matter what you do. Most hunters are just passionate about hunting and most are respectful...some are not. For me, hunting with a recurve, any deer is a trophy. Also, it is law abiding hunters that are responsible for keeping the game in check with the harvest and conservation of wild game.

From: itshot
02-Jan-22
"....blah, blah...have the potential to further erode the non-hunting community’s support for us"

support??

" The loons will always be loons"

02-Jan-22
Greg,

Blah, blah??? Talking about campfire?

So, all non-hunters are loons? You need help Greg.

From: Rocky D
02-Jan-22

02-Jan-22
Mis-guided meat hunters? Lol.

From: sitO
02-Jan-22
"If it’s your thing do it, but don’t broadcast it to the world."

Correct me if I'm wrong here Frank, but didn't you post pics of five or so doe's, and your buck here on a "social media"

From: Nick Muche
02-Jan-22
Lol

From: Bowboy
02-Jan-22
Lou-CO will probably make it a felony to have a Bobcat or Mtn Lion mounted in your residence even if killed legally in another state.

02-Jan-22
I look at it as hunting smarter/older animals and the challenge that it brings… not trophy hunting. But, that’s me.

02-Jan-22
Kyle and Nick,

You both know I was talking trophy hunting. And that is why I chose this year to post the pictures of a self proclaimed meat hunter who shares his harvest with the less fortunate. As I do on FB. But you were critical of that. My intent was to let others see there are hunters who enjoy the entire experience, including the sweat and work.

Maybe think about what Slate said to you.

From: sitO
02-Jan-22
You "chose this year to post pictures"? So you haven't posted your "trophy's" every year for the last how many years?

Tell us what you do with the meat Frank, just so that there's no confusion about you just "trophy hunting".

02-Jan-22
No I haven’t posted my harvests every year. But I intentionally posted this year for the reason above.

All of the meat was processed. And will be used.

So tell us about posting your buddy’s trophy on your thread, and then we got the rest of the story from a neighbor you have problems with, the story being the deer wasn’t recovered in time to save more than the back straps.

Buy a mirror Kyle.

From: sitO
02-Jan-22
No Frank, we didn't get to the deer in time to save the meat, took what we thought was edible. It's all there to read, as are your multiple posts about your "trophies" from multiple years.

Tell us again why you kill them, snap photos, and then give them away?

02-Jan-22
Four of them are in our freezer. Please be accurate.

They need culling in my area, I do my part. Only one photo of me this year, and with a doe. Same reason I have not entered anything into P&Y, it should be about the animal, not the hunter IMO.

We can keep doing this, I am done taking your crap.

Notice I am not posting on the number of kills thread.

From: sitO
02-Jan-22
Fair enough, just wanted to make sure you understood the definitions.

Keep talking in circles, eventually you'll find yourself.

02-Jan-22
Tough time with geometry when you were in school? Too busy intimidating other kids I guess?

02-Jan-22
JL asked a very pertinent question that has so far been ignored. What exactly is your definition of trophy hunting?

Apparently you consider friends backslapping each other for killing a nice deer a negative? And exactly what shouldn't be broadcast to the world? Someone legally kills an animal they're proud of and shouldn't post the picture because you consider it a negative?

You seem quite eager to condemn others for doing something that you feel negatively reflects on hunting's future, yet at the same time attempt to justify what you do "to let others see there are hunters who enjoy the entire experience, including the sweat and work." Does that mean that those that hunt for reasons other than just meat don't enjoy the entire experience, including the sweat and work?

IMO, some people need to get off their holier-than -thou soapbox. These kinds of threads are as much a threat to hunting as the anti's.

From: RD in WI
02-Jan-22
To me, some of these discussions fall into the "much ado about nothing" category, especially on a site of peer bowhunters. How outsiders perceive what you do is only important if you care about their opinion. That ended for most people in high school. Additionally, consider what threads you feel entitled to begin - and what directives you feel entitled to command to others, as in - "If it’s your thing do it, but don’t broadcast it to the world". You are taking some liberties you don't have when you make statements like that.

02-Jan-22
wbs,

No problem with guys congratulating each other. But why is it about the big measurements mostly?

GG’s post is spot on IMO.

Look, I think just about all of us sit a little high in the saddle here. Kind of common as people get older and have had a measure of success, which describes many here.

Give it a break, there was no condemnation. The JJ video, and in my state where a person is congratulated for not recovering a big buck in time to salvage the meat, but others are comfortable being critical of shooting does, yes, I think similar priorities to that are a much bigger threat to hunting’s future.

Read the stats Jaq posted. Others are echoing similar thoughts. It is good IMO that antis see us having these types of discussions, that we are all not hunting just for trophies.

02-Jan-22
RD,

We better care about what the 80 percent of non-hunters think. Our future depends on them as several here have pointed out.

We all have those liberties, it is called our First Amendment

Would like to compare comments like yours that our critical of threads like this and see if there are some of the same folks complaining about the political threads. LOL. This is directly hunting related.

Some think trophy hunting is more con, some think it is more pro. “ Some” means there are multiple people in each camp.

And ain’t that America?

02-Jan-22
“Give it a break, there was no condemnation.”

Spare me the condescending response. In your own words you said it was a negative. And where did someone being congratulated for not recovering a big buck in time to recover the meat come from?

You still refuse to answer what you consider trophy hunting, but continue to throw out statements such as “we are all not hunting just for trophies.” Some years I hunt for a mature animal with big antlers, some years I hunt for a yearling cow. Both are trophies to me, but apparently in your mind if I’m hunting for antlers I’m a threat to hunting, but if I’m hunting for a fat young cow I’m looking out for the future of hunting? Trying to pigeonhole everything into a neat little package doesn’t work.

02-Jan-22
You assumed a lot. Pointing out I believe there are more cons than pros is not a condemnation, spare me the condescending response.

Same as on the vac threads, I am pro vac but took great pains not to condemn anyone disagreeing.

And that’s all this is, sharing different opinions. I am not condemning anyone for the legal pursuit of animals. Again, I do believe if others see that our fixation is on trophies and not mainly about feeding ourselves naturally, we will continue to lose additional hunting privileges.

You are correct, I did not directly point out the definition of trophy to me, but thought I implied it well enough.

Trophy to me means the pursuit of animals solely or mainly for their score that is used to place them in various record books like PY and BC. Whether that be antler, skull measurements etc. Hope that clarifies it, and I sincerely apologize for not directly answering the first two times, I honestly thought that was directed at someone else!

From: RD in WI
02-Jan-22
You are conflating freedom of speech with a freedom to tell people what to do. Additionally, I applaud Pat for allowing political threads, as they allow people a safe forum to vent their frustrations. Hopefully, you are as politically active in your home state as you are on Bowsite - you might move the needle in local politics.

02-Jan-22
I assumed nothing. You laid out a grocery list of what you consider negatives. Period.

Apparently you feel Randy Ulmer, Chuck Adams, and others that hunt for book animals are a black eye for hunting. Let’s just say I disagree. I shake my head when those like you say they’ve killed animals that would make book, but have chosen not to have them scored. You act like it’s a badge of honor. If you haven’t had an animal officially scored, it’s score is zero.

02-Jan-22
Geez, such emotional words. A grocery list? That might be a stop at 7-11, not a grocery store?

I am not trying to tell anyone what to do. But the stuff I have read or seen from some of the names you mentioned are usually tastefully done. Yet, we had debates on 100 yard sheep shots, remember.

And yes, these guys are capable of it for sure, yet sharing it with the non/hunting public? Yes, I admit I think it doesn’t help.

FYI, I teach at an extremely large community college. I share openly that I am a hunter. I hear every semester most students supporting the pursuit of “free range” food, but are appalled by baiting, trophy hunting, and are mixed about archery hunting, some thinking it gives the animals a more fair chance, others thinking we should kill as quickly as possible and think firearms are better.

I probably talk to more non-hunters a year about hunting than many. These discussions have formed my opinions to a large extent.

From: Ambush
02-Jan-22
Yup, this thread went exactly as I knew it would. Hunters ripping hunters. Some of it is fair criticism, but none of it helpful to the future of hunting.

As soon as you capitulate to the "only hunt what you eat" mantra, you have kissed the future of hunting good bye. From my own experience I watched the grizzly hunt go. The capitulators said, "if we take out the meat, that will stop them". It didn't matter. Now they have their sights set on cougars and lynx even though people eat them. It doesn't matter. Then it's wolves and black bears. Then it's "You don't really need to kill anything to eat". If you're a "I'm just a meat hunter so I'm safe" kinda guy then be prepared to be disappointed. You may be the last one still shooting, but you've done nothing for future generations. Just keeping your head down won't win a war.

Pacific Wild is BC's most influential anti hunting org. You can go to their website and read their mandate and they make it absolutely clear all predator hunting is the current target.

"First they came for the trophy hunters . . but I was not a trophy hunter . . "

02-Jan-22
Ambush,

Fair criticism, maybe. I did not say meat hunting only. In fact I mentioned culling. Keeping nature in balance when natural predators, changes to habitat etc make it necessary. This would include controlling numbers of all species you mentioned.

I now have clearly defined what I mean by trophy hunting. If that keeps getting the spotlight, we are doomed already.

From: Bou'bound
03-Jan-22
"Before this runs off the tracks"

.......................well how'd that work out for ya?

From: DanaC
03-Jan-22
" MOST LOATHSOME TREND AMONG WEALTHY BIG-GAME HUNTERS: Having a third-rate artist do a portrait of them with their favorite dead animal, usually killed with the help of a large supporting cast."

David Petzal, Field & Stream, Dec. 2007

From: Rocky D
03-Jan-22
“ As soon as you accept the "only hunt what you eat" mantra, you have kissed the future of hunting good bye”

Absolutely!

03-Jan-22
I say to each his Own ! You want to trophy hunt that's fine if not that's ok. I like to get the BIG ones but i will shoot a Spike if i need meat. This also can get you in trouble because year before last i passed a bunch of Deer and then didn't shoot anything, we ran out of meat and the Wife had to buy ground beef at the Grocery store. She couldn't believe the prices. Told me don't pass up Deer until you fill the freezer. Lesson learned.

From: JL
03-Jan-22
^....got that right!! Between the wild game and fish I get....it's seems a little unnatural to buy beef at a store and I don't buy any fish. I've passed up opportunities early and ended up with tag soup later. Ya roll the dice...ya take your chances...and I lost.

03-Jan-22
We ought to propose the same question to the 69 percent of non-hunters opposed to trophy hunting…

Define what trophy hunting is?

From: M.Pauls
03-Jan-22
I think the term “trophy hunting” has just been perverted kinda like “assault weapons.” Terms to emotionally sway the disconnected folks one way. There was a tremendous push all of a sudden for ripping people in the media for “trophy hunting”. Whenever I can, I try and explain to non hunters what trophy hunting ACTUALLY is, and that the meat is STILL USED. If it’s not, that’s poaching. Most folks don’t actually understand that which is shocking. I honestly believe you have a lot of average folks out there that shutter when they hear “trophy hunting” because they are confusing it with poaching. You can thank the media for that. I don’t think most people who would actually understand what true trophy hunters are doing, would have a problem with it. Just like “assault weapons.” Instantly “non gun” people likely picture a guy in full tac gear with an M16 ready to light the place up, not some guy plinking 7up cans with his semi auto 223. Again, thank the media.

From: Fuzzy
03-Jan-22
whatever it takes to get young fellas out there IMO. Most will eventually outgrow the ego part and start enjoying the experience.

03-Jan-22
MPauls,

It doesn’t matter really what they think it is versus reality. They vote. And videos like jj reach a lot more of them than our small talks with non-hunters do imo, and talking is not as effective as videos for the younger folks.

From: M.Pauls
03-Jan-22
Yeah I guess I’m not talking about an extreme case like that. And I haven’t watched it to be forthright. Probably wouldn’t enjoy it. Was just an observation from my personal experience. I guess my point is, as hunters, maybe instead of tearing each other apart, which WILL destroy us, we can focus on somehow educating non hunters on the matter. If videos is the way, then so be it. Myself, I’ve chosen to steer clear of social media besides bowsite, so I will continue to have one on one conversations with people when I can.

03-Jan-22
I agree with you. Every hunter should support another hunter’s legal activities. Thanks

03-Jan-22
How the hunter behaves is the issue, not the size of the animal killed. Bad behavior can be perfectly legal. Do we really need to support macho bubba bragging behavior just because it is legal and they are hunters?

03-Jan-22

Charlie Rehor's embedded Photo
Charlie Rehor's embedded Photo
He gets it.

From: Bake
03-Jan-22
What hunting really needs is a PR campaign that will educate. It will cost millions and millions, to combat the antis.

I've found that if you have an honest conversation about what trophy hunting actually entails, that few people have a problem with it. At least few of the people that I deal with, who are for the most part Midwesterners who are not too far from the realities of the farm.

I once had the chance the talk rhino hunting with a Kansas City born and bred Nurse Practitioner student who was precepting with my mother. I had lunch with my mom and this guy a couple times a week throughout the semester he was precepting with her. I explained the realities of trophy hunting in regards to the "iconic" species like elephant, rhino, lion, etc. He was open to the ideas, and he understood. And although he'd never hunted before, I believe he understood and agreed with the concept, once it had been explained.

I think that most non-hunters, if you could sit down and explain what all it entailed, would understand, if they would keep an open mind and not be guided purely by their emotions.

03-Jan-22
So, what does trophy hunting actually mean? Is it really limited to certain species?

From: M.Pauls
03-Jan-22
I think that’s an awesome idea Bake. Maybe P&Y and B&C could head something like that up. SCI maybe too? There’s something that I feel would actually help. Change the hearts of people I think we are ripe for something like that. A lot of the younger generation is now interested once again in knowing where their food comes from and can be once again “open” to things like hunting

From: Ambush
03-Jan-22
"I think that most non-hunters, if you could sit down and explain what all it entailed, would understand"

I have found that to be true, time and time again.

The worst thing you can do is to try and gain acceptance from your audience by throwing "Trophy Hunters" under the bus. "Oh don't worry, I'm not one of them, we all hate them". Your reprieve will be short lived because it's based on emotion, not facts and emotions are fickle.

Understand this. ALL hunting is under attack. The anti's hunt like the wolves in well organized packs. They run the herd to pick the easiest flank to tear and once the blood has started they concentrate on that goal.

And like wolves they will hunt down the very last one to satisfy their hunger. Don't think you're safe hiding in your forty acre lot, keeping your head low, shooting a few does for meat. Thirty years ago hunters scoffed at the idea that we'd be where we are right now. "They won't ban bear hunting, we won't let them.". Ditto hounds, bait and spring seasons. Even owning a cougar or African animal mount!

Every little thing lost is just like individual strands on your bow string. Your done hunting when enough strands have been chewed through. Whether you quit because you know its over or it blows up in your face when you didn't see it coming because you weren't paying attention.

03-Jan-22
Bake and MPauls, agree with you!

"A lot of the younger generation is now interested once again in knowing where their food comes from and can be once again “open” to things like hunting"

Interested in where their food comes from! Emphasis on "food".

It would be nice if we could convince more school districts to encourage HE/BHE classes as eligible for the social responsibility assignments students are regularly given today.

From: bigeasygator
03-Jan-22
Trophy hunting is the shooting of big game animals such as rhinos, elephants, big cats and bears for one’s pleasure. These animals are killed for their body parts to be displayed as ornaments to show off one’s power and success of the hunt."

This debate always seems to simultaneously conflate and ignore aspects of hunting that are related to shooting mature animals and animals not conventionally considered good table-fare. I'll try and touch on a few.

1) Per the definition, I don't know I've ever met a "trophy hunter." Distilling the hunt down to purely the display of "trophies" doesn't capture the motivations of any hunter I've ever conversed with.

2) The definition leaves out the fact that even though some animal parts are kept as "trophies" to display, I'd venture to say that most animals are still consumed. Additionally, I know plenty of people whose primary motivation is to fill the freezer but will still hold onto a set of antlers or a bear hide as a trophy. It has nothing to do with "power."

3) The definition of the antis also completely ignores the necessity of managing species numbers and species demographics. This is as true for the big predators and other charismatic mega-fauna as it is for your run of the mill whitetail deer.

4) The people I consider trophy hunters I know are people who are extraordinarily selective in the types of animals they harvest. They pass multiple animals and often leave tags unpunched waiting for the right one. They often spend money for the opportunity to chase the quality of animal they are chasing. They are driven by challenge and seek out new experiences. Do they often have a "trophy room" full of animals? Yep. Is that only what it's about? Not even close.

From: Ambush
03-Jan-22
What if Jack O'Conner had been born twenty five years ago? Would he be a "trophy hunting media whore" today doing exactly what he was doing all those decades ago?

From: goyt
03-Jan-22
Interesting thread. I think that a big part of the issue is what is Trophy Hunting to each individual. We all have our own opinion of what we consider as being favorable. There was a time when Dick Idol was making a name for himself as an expert whitetail hunter and he had never taken B&C buck. Great efforts were being made by a group of people to help him shot a buck that could be entered in B&C record books. This clearly falls within Frank's definition of Trophy Hunting. A number of years ago a hunter purchased an AZ auction tag for sheep to pursue a world record ram. He hired an outfitter who hired teams that scouted for a world record ram for months and complied pictures and locations on various rams. Once a decision was made on what ram to shoot, I think that they had 5 teams in the mountains and rented a cabin for a command center. The target ram was found and tracked while the hunter was either at home or at a hotel. Finally, he came in and shot the ram. The (hunter) now had a WR. Definitely Trophy Hunting in anyone's opinion but it is certainly arguable who did the hunting. It was a team effort with a lot of people hunting for one animal.

Now let's look at a hunter who sets a goal of shooting a P&Y buck with a bow with minimal assistance and definitely w/o a guide. If successful, the hunter is going to have it scored and entered because that is the only way to be sure that it is a P&Y buck. Clearly a Trophy Hunter by Frank's definition. Let's say that the hunter is successful, uses a scorer that he does not know personally and enters the buck without telling anyone. No one that matters to him knows about it nor will any else take notice. This seems to be acceptable to most on here. What if the hunters told friends? Is the hunter now hunting for ego? Was the WR sheep guy hunting for ego or to meet a challenge? I have some idea what is an acceptable challenge for me but I surely cannot judge someone else.

Now let's look at a guy who decides that a yearly buck taken with a selfbow that he made plus arrows that he made from tree stems and heads that he made from flint would be a great trophy to him. He tells everyone that will listen what his goal is. He starts a blog that covers every detail along the way. He discovers that it is a tough journey, so he finally gets some help making the bow, the arrows and the heads. All of this is shared on his blog. He finally kills a young buck. His wife and kids will not eat it so he gives the meat away. He shares that if it wasn't for the blog he would have not persevered. It was a matter of pride. Is he a trophy hunter? What is the big difference between him and the WR sheep hunter? They both were doing it for personal satisfaction which could be called ego.

This is bowsite so we all are choosing the challenge of hunting with a bow. At what point is our choice of weapons a matter of challenge or ego? Is hunting with a recurve better than a compound or hunting with a compound better than hunting with a crossbow or hunting with a bow better than hunting with a rifle? Does ego enter in? We can argue this forever.

From: Jaquomo
03-Jan-22
Bake, Colorado's extensive "Hug a Hunter" media campaign for a couple years was well done, clever, and accurately detailed everything hunters do for wildlife and conservation in the state.

And I'm betting when cat hunting is on the ballot, whether in 22 or 24, it will still be banned by a large margin. OTOH, if banning deer hunting was on the ballot, it would fail by a huge margin.

To us, hunting is "hunting" so long as it's legal. To nonhunters, there is a sliding scale of acceptability, which has been proven over and over in large surveys.

From: Bake
03-Jan-22
Well Lou, we are talking Colorado . . . :)

Sorry. I know. But cat hunting is one of the "mega" predators that get everyone's panties in twists. Because again, people with no clue cannot get past the emotion/cuteness factor (like with wolves). Would a media campaign aimed directly at educating people about cat hunting do any good? I don't know in Colorado. . . Maybe not anywhere.

From: Jaquomo
03-Jan-22
The sad truth about topics like this is, every single hunter in the U.S. could agree on what is right and wrong, ethical and unethical, and the other 96% of the country wouldn't give a damn what we think.

If it gets to a ballot they think about it for about 5 seconds. Older voters may be more inclined to see our side because they are of a different generation. We are totally hosed with younger voters.

03-Jan-22
It is the non hunting voters we must appease, not other hunters.

03-Jan-22

Glunt@work's embedded Photo
Glunt@work's embedded Photo
Well, if it gets too bad...

03-Jan-22
"To us, hunting is "hunting" so long as it's legal. To nonhunters, there is a sliding scale of acceptability, which has been proven over and over in large surveys."

"It is the non hunting voters we must appease, not other hunters."

Jaq and MB hit on the head what I was trying to convey but was not articulate enough.

I don't care about record books, and whether you guys enter them or not. On multiple occasions I have openly admitted that I could always feed my family if deer were around, but I am not good enough to take mature animals (with headgear or not) on a regular basis. This includes matriarch does.

It's not me that hunters have to worry about. While jj's hunt is not my cup of tea, I had no problem with the hunt, only the public release of the video.

Clearly, how the non-hunting public defines "trophy" is all that matters to our future ability to hunt. BEG, I usually agree with you, not this time. Goyt has it right about hunters having different definitions, but IMHO that misses the mark also. Jaq keeps telling us about the losses at the voting stations, those losses will continue to mount unless as was pointed out a huge PR/education campaign is undertaken soon. Thanks!

From: Rocky D
03-Jan-22
“ the losses at the voting stations, those losses will continue to mount unless as was pointed out a huge PR/education campaign is undertaken soon.”

HFW, we talk and we talk but that’s as far as it gets!

03-Jan-22
How ironic that my son and I are working on my new trophy room in my new home right now. Doing the flooring today. It’s my life’s work and nobody but me cares.

From: Bowfreak
03-Jan-22
The problem with trophy hunting is that the anti's have bastardized the definition of trophy hunting. In their eyes if you trophy hunt you are simply hunting for big antlers, big horns, etc. It reminds me of the word inclusion. Whenever I see that word I immediately think of some social justice liberal concept.

A more succinct term that the left hasn't accosted would help, because most people who trophy hunt are simply looking for mature animals and they typically are consuming the animals they eat too.

03-Jan-22
"In their eyes if you trophy hunt you are simply hunting for big antlers, big horns, etc."

To be honest, they don't get that idea from out of no where. We have a decent amount of that going on in the hunting world. Not a majority, but enough and in the public eye enough to be an issue.

From: Rocky D
03-Jan-22
“ To be honest, they don't get that idea from out of no where. We have a decent amount of that going on in the hunting world. Not a majority, but enough and in the public eye enough to be an issue.”

Bam!

From: Ollie
03-Jan-22
Like most anything, some hunt with the highest ethical standards and are humble with their successes while others are narcissistic jerks who seemingly care only for feeding their ego. There is not a lot we can do about those who choose that path other than apply peer pressure. Personally I don’t hunt with those who seem to be only interested in feeding their egos. Nor do I knowingly hunt with anyone with poor ethics.

From: Jaquomo
03-Jan-22
Trophy hunting = antlers/hides only, and the meat is wasted (in the minds of most non-hunters). I can't recall all the times people have asked me, "do you eat the meat"?

From: goyt
03-Jan-22
HFW, Is it correct to say that your issue is "What actions by hunters that the voting public is aware of, act to the benefit/detriment of hunting?". If we are going to address the pros and cons of trophy hunting we need a definition that we all understand even if we do not agree on it. I think that whatever we hunt individually is a trophy to us otherwise we would not be pursuing it. The more I read this thread the less clear I am on what the question is.

03-Jan-22
Jaq,

My students would say trophy means the meat, if used, is secondary and the antlers are the priority.

goyt,

A definition close to this would maybe help?

From: Grey Ghost
03-Jan-22
In my 3 year stint as a partner in an outfitting business, I'd say 75% of our successful deer/elk/antelope hunters had no interest in dealing with the meat at the end of their hunts. Part of that was probably our fault for allowing them the option to pay for processing fees and we would find a home for the meat. Not a single hunter left without their antlers/horns/capes, though, or at least made arrangements to get them home.

To me, that was the definition of "trophy hunting" and it enlightened me to a whole new breed of so-called hunters that I was unfamiliar with. It was also one of the primary reasons I got out of the business.

Matt

From: ahunter76
03-Jan-22
I was never a horn hunter of any Biggame. In those early years (B/4 bonus tags) I have filled the ONE DEER period allowed either sex tag with a DOE. I have been blessed with a very long Journey ( I did started bowhunting in 1956) In that time I did "change" my Whitetail thinking. First I started by becoming more selective on my next Buck since I had taken several & a couple good ones. When Bonus Doe tags started, I still only took 1 Doe. THEN, I stopped shooting Does all together & figured the new, younger hunter could benefit. Then, several years ago I set a personal goal on my next Whitetail Buck. I have had many a Whitetail buck & Doe pass within easy range that I let walk (I have had 8 Does 5-15 yds this year that had no idea I was there). I had a few encounters with Bucks that would meet my goal BUT they have proved smarter than me. Mind you, Whitetail is the only critter I have set a goal & I guess, became a Horn hunter. Why? I guess because I know there are many Does & Bucks of various sizes that have fallen to my arrows. Hogs, Elk, Antelope & anything else biggame Beware, period.

From: ahunter76
03-Jan-22

ahunter76's embedded Photo
ahunter76's embedded Photo
ahunter76's embedded Photo
ahunter76's embedded Photo
ahunter76's embedded Photo
ahunter76's embedded Photo
ahunter76's embedded Photo
ahunter76's embedded Photo
I was never a horn hunter of any Biggame. In those early years (B/4 bonus tags) I have filled the ONE DEER period allowed either sex tag with a DOE. I have been blessed with a very long Journey ( I did started bowhunting in 1956) In that time I did "change" my Whitetail thinking. First I started by becoming more selective on my next Buck since I had taken several & a couple good ones. When Bonus Doe tags started, I still only took 1 Doe. THEN, I stopped shooting Does all together & figured the new, younger hunter could benefit. Then, several years ago I set a personal goal on my next Whitetail Buck. I have had many a Whitetail buck & Doe pass within easy range that I let walk (I have had 8 Does 5-15 yds this year that had no idea I was there). I had a few encounters with Bucks that would meet my goal BUT they have proved smarter than me. Mind you, Whitetail is the only critter I have set a goal & I guess, became a Horn hunter. Why? I guess because I know there are many Does & Bucks of various sizes that have fallen to my arrows. Hogs, Elk, Antelope & anything else biggame Beware, period.

From: goyt
03-Jan-22
HFW, I edited my question above to be more in line with pros and cons in your original post.

On the detriment side I think that anything that provides the perception that the animals don't have a chance is detrimental. So many hunting shows involve baiting or hunting over food plots. If the viewer thinks that dumb animals just walk in and get killed people will see it as unfair.

The same thing goes for game farm hunts. I met some people who found out that I hunted. At a golf outing they invited a guy who was also a hunter in their mind. We got to talking about elk hunting and he said that he shot his bull in NY. He got a great deal on a nice 5X5 from a farm that had to get rid of some surplus animals. My hosts did not know the difference between hunting wild elk and shooting one on a game farm. Although I support free enterprise, I do not think that it is helpful that some of the public thinks that we shoot tame animals in a fenced area.

For benefits I feel the best thing is for each of us to conduct ourselves in the best manner possible. If people like us, feel that we are ethical and want us to be successful as hunters what more can we ask for. Unfortunately, this is one of the biggest detriments in my opinion. It seems like every landowner has had way too much experience with trespassers or hunters that they gave permission to hunt that then showed up with a group of people or run ATVs through their fields. Garbage is in the woods and parking lots. Very little is said about the good guys, but everyone talks about the bad ones. I think that the public see this because it is in front of them much more than the TV shows or the record books.

From: Lee
03-Jan-22
That’s a shame GG. I personally chase older animals but certainly eat them! We certainly have done a poor job if people automatically assume if you shoot a big one the meat is wasted! Certainly not at my house.

Lee

From: Rocky D
03-Jan-22
“To me, that was the definition of "trophy hunting" and it enlightened me to a whole new breed of so-called hunters that I was unfamiliar with.”

GG, why are so into dividing hunters?

I guess that when and if I get back to Alaska to moose hunt and I give the meat to my niece that lives in Alaska will automatically define me as a trophy hunter even though my freezer is so full with venison that I have to can venison before I can pick up the Buck that I have at the processor now!

I’ll bet most of those guys flew to the hunt that you helped outfit! How could you take money from people like that?

From: Jaquomo
03-Jan-22
"If the viewer thinks that dumb animals just walk in and get killed people will see it as unfair."

And the argument was also framed as "trophy hunting" because hunters really don't eat the meat, they just say they do, according to the narrative.

Yep, the video clips of bears running in and digging donuts out of barrels with a hunter sitting in a tree above sure didn't help us when people had to vote on it.

03-Jan-22
In a tree right now. 25 degrees. Two days of extreme cold, snow and ice. I am loving it! If I kill anything, it will be a trophy to me.

From: Grey Ghost
03-Jan-22
Rocky,

It was about 50/50 fly versus drive for our clients. The thing was, we even provided an option to have our flying client's meat shipped to them after processing and freezing for a shipping fee only. The vast majority simply didn't want it. And these weren't guys who already had freezers full of wild game.

I could go on and on about the ugly side of 'trophy hunting' that I saw in those 3 short years. I got into the business for all the wrong reasons. In hindsight, it was one of my worst career moves, and I'll regret capitalizing on the whole 'trophy hunting' thing for the rest of my life.

Matt

03-Jan-22

Habitat for Wildlife's embedded Photo
Habitat for Wildlife's embedded Photo
Jaq,

New glasses so you won’t make fun of me!

From: Ambush
03-Jan-22
^ ^ ^ Send a pic from your stand of where you expect to arrow a deer, please.

From: Jaquomo
03-Jan-22
This is from the head of Prairie Protection Colorado, one of the main groups pushing to outlaw cat hunting. They are already pushing the narrative.

"It's a trophy hunt," Deanna Meyer, the executive director for PPC, told FOX31. "They're taking animals for joy."

Meyer stressed a distinct difference between "ethical hunting" and "trophy hunting," stating the latter is motivated by the "complete glee and elation (expressed by hunters) at the kills that they've performed," whereas ethical hunting is exclusively motivated by survival and food."

We all know this is ridiculous, but that's how we're being framed in the MSM. Hunting for food and "survival" is ok. If we enjoy it, we are "trophy hunters".

03-Jan-22

Habitat for Wildlife's embedded Photo
Habitat for Wildlife's embedded Photo
Wrong picture above.

Ambush, I am not expecting to see anything.

From: Ambush
03-Jan-22
^ ^ ^ That's the group you have to worry about and counter!! Not peta. Its the local facebook groups that will do the most damage. Death by soccer mom's!!

From: Ambush
03-Jan-22
Time to up your expectations HFW! Figured you be at the rustic remote cabin on the bush line of the little field.

03-Jan-22
I saw 2 non-legal bucks. (Must be 4 points on one side in my county.)

03-Jan-22

Habitat for Wildlife's embedded Photo
Habitat for Wildlife's embedded Photo
The two non-shooters came back right after I left. Are these trophies? ;-)

From: Ambush
03-Jan-22
If you get lots of tags, you can shoot yearlings but I like more meat to bone ratio so nothing under 2 1/2.

From: Nick Muche
03-Jan-22
Must stink living in a county that manages for trophy quality.

From: Grey Ghost
03-Jan-22
Frank,

If you didn’t already have a freezer full of wild game, those 2 bucks would certainly be trophies in my book. As it is, I consider them food in the bank for future years. You’re a true hunter in my book, my friend.

Matt

From: Jaquomo
03-Jan-22
My wife is about to shoot a couple of trophy does that will thrill her to the max. She is a meateater to the core.

From: Grey Ghost
03-Jan-22
Lou, you found a good one, my friend. I’m so happy for you.

Matt.

03-Jan-22
Thanks guys.

Nick, not at all! Managing for trophy quality is accomplished by managing the does. And a meat hunter like myself is glad to oblige!

That didn’t work out the way you intended I’m sure;-)

03-Jan-22
“ hunters). I can't recall all the times people have asked me, ‘do you eat the meat’?”

LOL, Lou….

Out here, people have sincerely asked me if you CAN eat the meat!!

I have practiced looking incredulous for just these occasions. ;)

Great opportunity to let them know that the meat is the whole point of the exercise… which has led to a startling number of 180s in thinking.

I also usually mention (if given a chance) that I tan all of my hides and make small, scrimshaw-type “ornaments” from antler and cordage from sinew and generally try to make use of as much of that Free Range, Organic meat (and the whole animal) as possible….

Basically, the average non- hunter is smart enough to grasp the idea that its about a lot more than just Killing Stuff if you lay our a credible case that it means more than that to you.

Sincere Love-Making, Prostitution and Rape all look alike if all you pay attention to are the moving parts. But they’re not the same thing.

From: TD
04-Jan-22
I like big bones and I cannot lie......

I'll take the bait. Live for droppin' the string on big mature animals.... flips my switch like nothing I've ever done. What else do you have in your life that makes you shake? Shoot plenty of does and such for the freezer. But I'll be honest..... it's not the same. Not at all. And if someone doesn't understand why..... I don't think they ever will. Ever. Like a big wave rider trying to explain it to a non-surfer. And honestly again.... I don't care if they do or don't understand. It's not my place to explain great adventure or excitement to anyone. A great many live their lives in strict avoidance of real adventure or excitement.

Mankind has valued big animals from the dawn of time. Although their equipment and lives usually boiled it down to whatever opportunity was quickest and easiest, because they all came hard.... the oldest cave drawings depict the stories. Stories of great hunters and hunts told for generations long before the written word. I don't get exited because it may impress anyone. I get exited because it flips that genetic switch. "Can't eat the horns" true dat. But shazam! Seems the big ones are made of meat too. Sometimes quite a bit more of it.

Shouldn't have to defend "trophy hunting" to anyone any more than liking pretty, sexy girls. Also like powerful cars. Lifted trucks that actually get me where I need to go (mostly that I built, not many bolt on mods for '76 scout....) I've had greenies tell me such a vehicle shouldn't be on the road... but they don't go anywhere. Go figure. Good bird dogs, working dogs in general. Sexy O/U shotguns. Finally found some 6.5 Grendel ammo and when the night vision scope comes in I'm about to fire up a pig killing AR-15 machine that I built up from a receiver. Some guys hunt yotes with em..... I'm on a hog control mission that's tough to fill with sharp sticks. But I think it's gonna be fun.... Feel like Julie Andrews.... "these are a few of my favorite things....."

Love good action movies. Fine tools.... a good rib-eye steak and seafood.... Witcher III Wild Hunt, Geez, the list goes on of things that some folks have some opinion on as bad for mankind. Or whatever kind. I couldn't care less that anyone else doesn't like what I like. Couldn't care less what anyone else likes. But nether am I going to tell you what YOU should or shouldn't like. For our own good don'cha know.

Point is it's up to me to find and do what I like. And I'll talk all day long with anyone on why I do what I do and why I like to do it.... if they are honestly interested. If they just want to argue or virtue signal, which is pretty easy to spot.... I'm done. See ya. Have a nice life. Kinda doubt it, but hope you have one anyway....

If anyone wants to have an HONEST conversation on "trophy" hunting I'd be glad to have one with them. Problem is very few are honest. They just want to tell you what you should or shouldn't like and do, usually because somebody you don't know doesn't like it or do it. Tell you you should "feel" about it. And what they feel they can ALLOW you to do.

See: "Have a nice life" above.

From: pav
04-Jan-22
EmbryOklahoma - "I look at it as hunting smarter/older animals and the challenge that it brings… not trophy hunting. But, that’s me."

Thought Rick's response deserved a second post. Best response on this entire thread IMO.

From: Rocky D
04-Jan-22
“ EmbryOklahoma - "I look at it as hunting smarter/older animals and the challenge that it brings… not trophy hunting. But, that’s me."

Rick, spot on! Trophy hunting for me just extends my season.

If I didn’t pass on animals I would only get to around 25% of the time. I just filled my last Georgia buck last week! That means that I hunted from September through December. Freezer is full already so he will turn into canned venison! At least ten of those jars will go to hunting camp in Ohio for a month this fall.

As for you meat hunters I feed about three families with venison every a year including mine with our liberal bag limits. Friend who don’t hunt but love venison can be an asset! As Charlie stated “ love to see arrows passing through animals!

From: Rocky D
04-Jan-22

From: DanaC
04-Jan-22
I suspect part of the mis-perception of trophy hunting - among non-hunter - is the DE-emphasis of the 'meat' aspect in how it is depicted. Yes, the antlers are awesome, so celebrate, high-five, etc. BUT you seldom see the trophy hunters busting their humps getting the rest of the animal out and processed. Or cooking a pot of venison stew, or grilling some teaks.

So, the non-hunters may get the impression that we're *only* interested in the 'trophy' aspect of the hunt. Maybe we need to present trophy hunting in balance with consumption of the entire animal?

(I don't watch any hunt videos, are some guys doing this already? Hope so.)

04-Jan-22
After all of this, is there a positive plan going forward for the hunting community, or is the course we are on simply good enough?

From: goyt
04-Jan-22
At a time when climate change is one of the biggest issues, wild meat looks pretty "green" to me. Nature raises it and we harvest it. With that approach predators that take that meat from us become bad and should be controlled by hunting and trapping. At a time when climate change advocates are attacking the meat industry the environmental benefits of wild meat have great value.

From: cnelk
04-Jan-22
Im with Fred Eichler when it comes to trophy hunting

04-Jan-22
I have hunted for over 60 years and my efforts have never been about "antlers". My family, and non-hunter friends, enjoy the meat that is the goal of my hunting. I have secretly NOT enjoyed the client who came to the camp demanding a record book animal; nor the one who came and slung a bunch of rounds at a caribou so far off it was beyond stupidity. Keep hunting simple and to hell with antes.

From: Rocky D
04-Jan-22
Damn it, she must’ve done a psychological profile on me! I am just glad that I live by my definition and not Ms. Meyers!

From: Rocky D
04-Jan-22
“ got into the business for all the wrong reasons. In hindsight, it was one of my worst career moves, and I'll regret capitalizing on the whole 'trophy hunting' thing for the rest of my life.”

GG, I can except your thoughts and applying those thoughts to your life. Personally, I think that you That you have Matt’s rules to live by and that’s OK just as long as you don’t expect everybody else to live by your standard.

Unfortunately, from reading many of your post in the past I don’t think that is the case!

Other than that and your political inclinations I think you’re a helluva a good guy!

That’s OK, last night I had one of the best conversations through PMs with someone that I normally don’t agree with since I’ve been on Bowsite!

We were talking about hunting, imagine that!

From: Rocky D
04-Jan-22

04-Jan-22
Rocky,

You’re OK!

And Matt is a good man, I know from experience.

Well, only two coyotes observed this morning. I didn’t get it done like I had hoped. But, I bet you older gents will agree, harvest or not, the experience and memories are the true trophies!

04-Jan-22
MB,

Great question!

I assume you are asking if there is an organized effort to educate the public as to what trophy hunting actually is and how it benefits conservation?

I don’t know of any. I certainly do not possess the leadership or soft skills to move any organized effort forward.

I am privileged to teach 150 plus students each semester, and I try not to waste an opportunity to discuss issues important to hunters at the end of each semester. Probably not the best spokesperson for it, but I hope it makes a difference.

Lots of red tape out there! I am the faculty advisor for the Outdoors Club at our school. I envisioned getting some members into bow hunting, but our insurance czar ruled this out. I took a group camping on our farm and had to provide the school an insurance policy. When my company asked what we would be doing, our activities were limited so as not to risk injury. Going outside the agreed coverage left my wife and I liable.

We try and introduce youth, but this gets more difficult as I get older, lol. Joined the PY Club because you guys convinced me they are great for conservation. Probably all of you do similar or greater efforts. We would probably agree it is not enough though.

We do need some leadership on this, and some articulate non-confrontational folks to spear head it IMO. And we have numerous ones here that can do it. Pat has contacts, and experience with difficulties of even owning trophies in his home state.

The definition of trophy certainly needs better explanation, but also that the meat is what we desire first. MO has a great Feed the Hungry program, but I don’t think it is well known. And some states may have curtailed similar programs due to CWD?

Jaq has a ton of experience in CO, maybe Lou after getting your heart challenges squared away you could help start a national awareness campaign? You have what it takes!

04-Jan-22
Some in my home state of KS will disagree, but I believe trophy (antler) hunting has been the biggest obstacle in keeping the hunting tradition alive, period! Not baiting.

The pursuit of bone has made access highly difficult because of leasing. I hunt both KS and MO. The former allows baiting, the latter does not. MO’s northern tier counties are known for producing bigger racks, and the closer you get to IA the harder it is to find access to land not under contract, nearly impossible.

I did say difficult access, not impossible if you can afford it and I suspect many will say something along the lines of “work hard to pay for it if you want it”. That’s just not always realistic IMO.

04-Jan-22
Shane Mahoney wrote a great article in Bugle a few years back about trophy hunting that was absolutely brilliant and well-articulated like all his writing is.

"Trophy hunting" is like labeling someone an "Asian." People from Japan, China, Indonesia, Korea, etc, see themselves as very different peoples.

When I ask people what they think a trophy hunter is, they fall into two camps: 1. African hunters who kill animals like rhinos and lions and people think they do it all for hubris. And 2. (and much more commonly) people who kill animals for the head and don't eat the meat.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS WHAT A TROPHY HUNTER IS. I'm saying that this is what I get when I talk to non-hunting folks and people who are pure meat hunters.

Personally, I'm an adventure hunter, a meat hunter, and a trophy hunter. I do aim to get trophy animals, but I also shoot a ton of WT does and game meat is what I eat year round (and I absolutely love flinging arrows at WT does).

Still, even though I'm after the meat, nothing gets me going like a mature animal and I think that's a bit instinctual.

From: Jaquomo
04-Jan-22
Great points, Ike. Antlers have always held a fascination. It is in our DNA. Petroglyphs never portray dinky little forkhorn bucks or raghorn bulls. They are always giants. Sure, our ancestors valued the antlers for tools, but there is something deeper going on with our attraction to them. Maybe it is because they represent the biggest, strongest, and most virule of the species? Analyzing that connection would keep a team of psychoanalysts busy for awhile and they'd probably deduce some phallic, misogynistic connection.

05-Jan-22
Influence the people around you, share some meat with co-workers. Everyone and I mean everyone of the 400 employees at my work knows I hunt, and how much I value it and the meat. If you are passionate about something the people around you will take notice and most will respect it. So, I'd say start there instead of starting this thread. Who even says, "I'm a trophy hunter?" I get the picture of Ralph from the Simpsons in my head. Antis use the term Trophy Hunting, I haven't heard hunters use it at all. You think Muche walks around Alaska calling himself a trophy hunter? I'm guessing he's saying, "this is fricken awesome!"

From: Rocky D
05-Jan-22

Rocky D's embedded Photo
Rocky D's embedded Photo
“Influence the people around you, share some meat with co-workers.”

Rattling, this worked I this worked until the 90s. Since then mass communication by the anti hunters are winning the battle!

I did a google search that started with “is trophy” and here is what google wanted you to see!

From: Rocky D
05-Jan-22
Here is what they wanted you to see first!

From: Rocky D
05-Jan-22

Rocky D's embedded Photo
Rocky D's embedded Photo
I will try one more time!

From: Rocky D
05-Jan-22
The bottom line is that hunters are not controlling the narrative!

We are still doing the same old sh!t!

Trying to win the debate one person at a time!

05-Jan-22
Fair enough, but I'm relatively young, so I didn't know what happened in the '90s I was in grade school. Though I can tell you I've influenced social sphere for the positive. Then hunting needs a major media drive to accomplish what you are alluding to. Who is doing it? Is it possible? Since I don't know I'll have to continue to be an apostle and win them one at a time.

05-Jan-22
rattling,

I agree with Rocky's response. I also agree there is no national campaign, but one is sorely needed. Keep doing the 'one hunter at a time' campaign though for sure. Thanks.

From: Rocky D
05-Jan-22
HfW, Most of the anti hunting game is a money maker! Pope & Young is not driven by the dollar! That’s why Today’s influencers make so much money. big tech is influencing the masses!

From: goyt
07-Jan-22
Maybe I need to get out more but where I live, I do not see the anti-hunting efforts having a big impact. Leasing is becoming bigger and bigger in Ohio and that is a mixed bag. Access is being gained to some land due to the income to the landowner. Trespassing and slob hunting seems to be dropping because hunters are doing a better job of monitoring what is happening. This also holds true for people who buy land for hunting. Some hunters are losing access which is sad indeed. I do not see that as much different than some people not being able to afford the price of a ticket to a baseball game and parking when it use to be affordable to everyone but the poorest few. There may be fewer hunters, but I think that there may be more hunting days put in by the remaining hunters. Fifty years ago, most hunters that I knew hunted 2-4 days of a 9 day gun season with some hunting only 1 and some all 9. The number of bow hunters was so low that there was no competition. Now most whitetail states have several guns seasons and long bow seasons with crossbows with a lot of hunters using the seasons. Most non-resident western tags are so hard to obtain and access to hunting land is a challenge. I see this as a separate issue to anti-hunters impacting us. This is hunters impacting hunters. I recognize that the pro-wolf effort is hurting hunting and there are some successful efforts to shutdown cat and bear hunts. Also, wolf hunting efforts have been able to make some strides in hunting wolves which are providing some hunting opportunities. Granted moose populations are extremely low due to the wolves. Getting back to Ohio, I think that anti-hunting sentiments have not increased over the last 10 years and may have gone down. Bag limits are high. We can shoot 6 deer or more if we hunt an urban area. Trespassing and slob hunting still exists but is not as bad and is not having the negative impact that it once did. If fact the leasing agents are using trespass control as a successful selling point to landowners.

What is everyone using to judge the growth of the anti-hunting population? I think that they are struggling to get support in today's environment. I am not seeing it in Ohio. Of course, we still need to keep working to support hunting. I see more hunters attacking some definition of trophy hunting than I do non-hunters probably because they feel that it is negatively affecting their hunting opportunities.

From: Jaquomo
07-Jan-22

Jaquomo's Link
Surveys show the percentage of hunters and anti-hunter is roughly the same. About 4% of the total population for each. It's the other 92% that, the antis, mainstream media, Hollywood, and the music industry focus on reaching.

Here's one of Colorado's "Hug a Hunter" videos that was on mainstream media. They had a number of them. Still won't help when "trophy hunting" is on the ballot because most who approve of hunting disapprove of trophy hunting.

From: Rocky D
07-Jan-22
“ Still won't help when "trophy hunting" is on the ballot because most who approve of hunting disapprove of trophy hunting.”

Sadly, we are a fickle lot!

Even more sad is the fact that every time that I try to psychologically figure this out is that I keep coming up with that it must be a lot of people who suffer from penis envy!

Nowadays, I am glad that someone actually hunts! By hunt, I mean that they buy a license and go to the woods.

07-Jan-22
Unfortunately, Facebook and other media photos and videos of smiling, fist pumping, near orgasmic hunters with a dead animal of any size is generally perceived as "trophy hunting" by these voters.

From: goyt
07-Jan-22
Jaquomo, Thanks for the data. That is a great video! Any idea what a Trophy Hunting ballot would look like?

07-Jan-22
"Agree 100 percent that we hunters should support whatever someone decides to legally do."

sounds good on paper...until one group decides to fight to change what is legal in order to support what they like.

From: Rocky D
07-Jan-22
^^^^^^^^^^^^

From: goyt
07-Jan-22
Ricky, So true. I would love to get baiting ban in Ohio. I think that a lot of hunters bait only because everyone around them bait and if they want to hold deer they feel that they have to. However there has to be a significant number of hunters that want to bait badly and it would be divisive to try and get it changed. Therefore, I live with it.

From: Jaquomo
07-Jan-22
Goyt, the ballot initiative we expect to see in 2022 would simply ban the taking of mountain lions and bobcats by any means. They will justify it by framing it as "trophy hunting" because the meat is (presumably) not used, according to them. Next will probably be coyotes, for the same reason.

CO CPW ran a series of those commercials for a few years. Hug a Hunter and Hug a Fisherman. They were well done. Whether they made any difference remains to be seen,because polls show the large majority of nonhunters already approve of hunting - for meat.

From: goyt
07-Jan-22
Jaquomo, Thanks. That makes sense and it has nothing to do with scores, horns or size. I wonder why catch and release fishing has not seen more attacks. There the fish are being injured and sometimes die just for sport.

From: Jaquomo
07-Jan-22
I think the difference between C&R fishing and killing for "trophies" has to do with the blood sport aspect. Only the most avid ARAs are against torturing fish, but since fish arent furry and cuddly and they get to live another day, the general public says "meh".

Killing a beautiful animal that no idy ever sees but everyone wants to, simply for the fur and "enjoyment", is an easier emotional narrative to sell.

From: SteveB
07-Jan-22
I am not sure how "trophy hunting" can be associated with ego, unless I am just an oddball. I would think exactly the opposite - why you ask? Because in my case, most hunts I go home empty because I was holding to for a "trophy". Happy to do so I might add. Seems that if a person has the need to tell someone that they tagged out so they don't look bad or look like a bad hunter, then that is where ego is involved. Of course, there are always exceptions.

From: Rocky D
08-Jan-22
“ Still won't help when "trophy hunting" is on the ballot because most who approve of hunting disapprove of trophy hunting.”

Joq’s comment really got me to thinking about how could we have gotten to this point!

The only topics that may be as divisive and polarizing on Bowsite would be the leftist support the party that seems hell bent on the second amendment, hunters, and hunting, baiting!

I just couldn’t get past these thoughts and could only come up with one that would support their negative position on trophy hunting.

The only thing that I could come up with is how do I make myself feel better than others without doing anything!

So, I made a this list of some of those.

Bow vs gun

Longbow vs recurve

Compound vs crossbow

Non trail camera user vs train cam user

Public land vs private

Non baiter vs baiter

DIY vs guided

I am sure that there are more issues and that much could be personal preference but I think that if it was just personal preference then we we would be more accepting of others choice or methods.

Also, I don’t do not think that this is a conscious decision on most of these issues but is strictly a subconscious function of the brain that sadly we humans do.

From: Jaquomo
08-Jan-22
You forgot ebike vs. hike, treestand vs. ground, Sitka vs Kuiu vs FL vs second hand store, scents vs no scent, cover scents vs au natural, Nose Jammer vs arrogance, antlers vs meat, truck hunt vs backpack vs bivy, mech vs fixed blades, on and on and on and on.

Check out Treelines thread about the push to ban trophy hunting in AZ. Only the beginning.

From: Rocky D
08-Jan-22
Joq, Absolutely no end to pettiness!

After doing some research I found that confirmation bias is actually a survival mechanism that stems from the amygdalae. This is part of what they call the reptilian brain!

From: RT
08-Jan-22
Link I disagree. I think outfitters lease up so much land that the public once had an opportunity to access. Outfitters simply look out for outfitters and that's it.

08-Jan-22
The "leased up" lands are still hunted by hunters. The only change is who has access.

From: RT
08-Jan-22
Luckily our CPW is aquiring as much land as possible to secure places for future generations to hunt on their own. Not everyone cares to shell out thousands of dollars for 50 pounds of meat.

  • Sitka Gear