More harm than good?
Personally I have harvested at least 10 (well above the minimum) Whitetails that if measured would qualify. None have been officially measured, never will while I am alive. But I am a P&Y Club member.
Personally I think threads like JJ’s and others here have the potential to further erode the non-hunting community’s support for us. Like the lift kits pointed out on another thread, much of this is about ego.
I read guys backslapping each other for killing a nice deer, which they do every 4-5 years or so. What’s so great about luck? If you are out there enough, and hunt where they exist, it wii happen to you. Only 3 of the above mentioned deer I knew about and was targeting, the others were luck.
If it’s your thing do it, but don’t broadcast it to the world. I know guys who never post their monsters, much respect for them.
I could list more negatives…
I also believe the commercialization of shooting bigs ones has led too many folks down the path of bad decision-making. It also leads to bad policy-making too....IMO of course.
BC lost the grizzly hunt with "evidence" from the main BC hunting site supporting them.
"I'm a hunter and don't support trophy hunting."
"I'm an ethical meat hunter".
"I don't support killing for sport".
"Why kill off the biggest and best just for your ego?"
I went to the website of the main org pushing the ban and there were dozens of comment screen shots from the BC Hunting forums. All poking holes in our boat.
The anti's could demonstrate, from our own words, that even 90% of hunters did not support the grizzly hunt.
They don't need your pics.
Ambush, you have a really good point; however, I think Link’s view offsets it. And the antis are reading both.
Every person I have ever talk to who reacted negatively towards the idea of hunting has had a change of heart as soon as I point out that they eat meat, too. The difference between me and them is that I am willing to take personal responsibility for the deaths of some of the animals that I eat. Most honest people are pretty quick to see the hypocrisy of their position, so even though they are still uncomfortable with the idea of doing it themselves, they can’t condemn the idea of taking one’s own meat.
But as soon as “trophies“ become involved, it changes the channel to All Ego, All the Time, and not many people can get on board with killing an animal for bragging rights, which is all that most non-hunters are prepared to believe is involved in killing any kind of predator.
That’s a failure of imagination on their part, to be sure. If it were made clear to no -hunters that Wanton Waste laws apply equally to bears & lions, that would re-frame the conversation for them real quick.
And if WW laws don’t apply to lions & bears…. Maybe they should?
I miss those days.
Agree 100 percent that we hunters should support whatever someone decides to legally do.
Where you differ is that you aren't killing them for pleasure (ok, maybe a little) or to display their body parts to show off your power.
Misguided meat hunters helped write their definition. For me a trophy hunter is one who pursues mature animals or as they say “a good representative of the species “.
Maybe this is one of the areas that we hunters could educate the non hunters who are open minded enough to be educated. The loons will always be loons.
I dont think there is anything wrong with posting pics and celebrating when you take an animal. I could care less what the media or Hollywood or the anti crowd thinks...they will never accept hunting no matter what you do. Most hunters are just passionate about hunting and most are respectful...some are not. For me, hunting with a recurve, any deer is a trophy. Also, it is law abiding hunters that are responsible for keeping the game in check with the harvest and conservation of wild game.
" The loons will always be loons"
Blah, blah??? Talking about campfire?
So, all non-hunters are loons? You need help Greg.
Correct me if I'm wrong here Frank, but didn't you post pics of five or so doe's, and your buck here on a "social media"
You both know I was talking trophy hunting. And that is why I chose this year to post the pictures of a self proclaimed meat hunter who shares his harvest with the less fortunate. As I do on FB. But you were critical of that. My intent was to let others see there are hunters who enjoy the entire experience, including the sweat and work.
Maybe think about what Slate said to you.
Tell us what you do with the meat Frank, just so that there's no confusion about you just "trophy hunting".
All of the meat was processed. And will be used.
So tell us about posting your buddy’s trophy on your thread, and then we got the rest of the story from a neighbor you have problems with, the story being the deer wasn’t recovered in time to save more than the back straps.
Buy a mirror Kyle.
Tell us again why you kill them, snap photos, and then give them away?
They need culling in my area, I do my part. Only one photo of me this year, and with a doe. Same reason I have not entered anything into P&Y, it should be about the animal, not the hunter IMO.
We can keep doing this, I am done taking your crap.
Notice I am not posting on the number of kills thread.
Keep talking in circles, eventually you'll find yourself.
Apparently you consider friends backslapping each other for killing a nice deer a negative? And exactly what shouldn't be broadcast to the world? Someone legally kills an animal they're proud of and shouldn't post the picture because you consider it a negative?
You seem quite eager to condemn others for doing something that you feel negatively reflects on hunting's future, yet at the same time attempt to justify what you do "to let others see there are hunters who enjoy the entire experience, including the sweat and work." Does that mean that those that hunt for reasons other than just meat don't enjoy the entire experience, including the sweat and work?
IMO, some people need to get off their holier-than -thou soapbox. These kinds of threads are as much a threat to hunting as the anti's.
No problem with guys congratulating each other. But why is it about the big measurements mostly?
GG’s post is spot on IMO.
Look, I think just about all of us sit a little high in the saddle here. Kind of common as people get older and have had a measure of success, which describes many here.
Give it a break, there was no condemnation. The JJ video, and in my state where a person is congratulated for not recovering a big buck in time to salvage the meat, but others are comfortable being critical of shooting does, yes, I think similar priorities to that are a much bigger threat to hunting’s future.
Read the stats Jaq posted. Others are echoing similar thoughts. It is good IMO that antis see us having these types of discussions, that we are all not hunting just for trophies.
We better care about what the 80 percent of non-hunters think. Our future depends on them as several here have pointed out.
We all have those liberties, it is called our First Amendment
Would like to compare comments like yours that our critical of threads like this and see if there are some of the same folks complaining about the political threads. LOL. This is directly hunting related.
Some think trophy hunting is more con, some think it is more pro. “ Some” means there are multiple people in each camp.
And ain’t that America?
Spare me the condescending response. In your own words you said it was a negative. And where did someone being congratulated for not recovering a big buck in time to recover the meat come from?
You still refuse to answer what you consider trophy hunting, but continue to throw out statements such as “we are all not hunting just for trophies.” Some years I hunt for a mature animal with big antlers, some years I hunt for a yearling cow. Both are trophies to me, but apparently in your mind if I’m hunting for antlers I’m a threat to hunting, but if I’m hunting for a fat young cow I’m looking out for the future of hunting? Trying to pigeonhole everything into a neat little package doesn’t work.
Same as on the vac threads, I am pro vac but took great pains not to condemn anyone disagreeing.
And that’s all this is, sharing different opinions. I am not condemning anyone for the legal pursuit of animals. Again, I do believe if others see that our fixation is on trophies and not mainly about feeding ourselves naturally, we will continue to lose additional hunting privileges.
You are correct, I did not directly point out the definition of trophy to me, but thought I implied it well enough.
Trophy to me means the pursuit of animals solely or mainly for their score that is used to place them in various record books like PY and BC. Whether that be antler, skull measurements etc. Hope that clarifies it, and I sincerely apologize for not directly answering the first two times, I honestly thought that was directed at someone else!
Apparently you feel Randy Ulmer, Chuck Adams, and others that hunt for book animals are a black eye for hunting. Let’s just say I disagree. I shake my head when those like you say they’ve killed animals that would make book, but have chosen not to have them scored. You act like it’s a badge of honor. If you haven’t had an animal officially scored, it’s score is zero.
I am not trying to tell anyone what to do. But the stuff I have read or seen from some of the names you mentioned are usually tastefully done. Yet, we had debates on 100 yard sheep shots, remember.
And yes, these guys are capable of it for sure, yet sharing it with the non/hunting public? Yes, I admit I think it doesn’t help.
FYI, I teach at an extremely large community college. I share openly that I am a hunter. I hear every semester most students supporting the pursuit of “free range” food, but are appalled by baiting, trophy hunting, and are mixed about archery hunting, some thinking it gives the animals a more fair chance, others thinking we should kill as quickly as possible and think firearms are better.
I probably talk to more non-hunters a year about hunting than many. These discussions have formed my opinions to a large extent.
As soon as you capitulate to the "only hunt what you eat" mantra, you have kissed the future of hunting good bye. From my own experience I watched the grizzly hunt go. The capitulators said, "if we take out the meat, that will stop them". It didn't matter. Now they have their sights set on cougars and lynx even though people eat them. It doesn't matter. Then it's wolves and black bears. Then it's "You don't really need to kill anything to eat". If you're a "I'm just a meat hunter so I'm safe" kinda guy then be prepared to be disappointed. You may be the last one still shooting, but you've done nothing for future generations. Just keeping your head down won't win a war.
Pacific Wild is BC's most influential anti hunting org. You can go to their website and read their mandate and they make it absolutely clear all predator hunting is the current target.
"First they came for the trophy hunters . . but I was not a trophy hunter . . "
Fair criticism, maybe. I did not say meat hunting only. In fact I mentioned culling. Keeping nature in balance when natural predators, changes to habitat etc make it necessary. This would include controlling numbers of all species you mentioned.
I now have clearly defined what I mean by trophy hunting. If that keeps getting the spotlight, we are doomed already.
.......................well how'd that work out for ya?
David Petzal, Field & Stream, Dec. 2007
Define what trophy hunting is?
It doesn’t matter really what they think it is versus reality. They vote. And videos like jj reach a lot more of them than our small talks with non-hunters do imo, and talking is not as effective as videos for the younger folks.
I've found that if you have an honest conversation about what trophy hunting actually entails, that few people have a problem with it. At least few of the people that I deal with, who are for the most part Midwesterners who are not too far from the realities of the farm.
I once had the chance the talk rhino hunting with a Kansas City born and bred Nurse Practitioner student who was precepting with my mother. I had lunch with my mom and this guy a couple times a week throughout the semester he was precepting with her. I explained the realities of trophy hunting in regards to the "iconic" species like elephant, rhino, lion, etc. He was open to the ideas, and he understood. And although he'd never hunted before, I believe he understood and agreed with the concept, once it had been explained.
I think that most non-hunters, if you could sit down and explain what all it entailed, would understand, if they would keep an open mind and not be guided purely by their emotions.
I have found that to be true, time and time again.
The worst thing you can do is to try and gain acceptance from your audience by throwing "Trophy Hunters" under the bus. "Oh don't worry, I'm not one of them, we all hate them". Your reprieve will be short lived because it's based on emotion, not facts and emotions are fickle.
Understand this. ALL hunting is under attack. The anti's hunt like the wolves in well organized packs. They run the herd to pick the easiest flank to tear and once the blood has started they concentrate on that goal.
And like wolves they will hunt down the very last one to satisfy their hunger. Don't think you're safe hiding in your forty acre lot, keeping your head low, shooting a few does for meat. Thirty years ago hunters scoffed at the idea that we'd be where we are right now. "They won't ban bear hunting, we won't let them.". Ditto hounds, bait and spring seasons. Even owning a cougar or African animal mount!
Every little thing lost is just like individual strands on your bow string. Your done hunting when enough strands have been chewed through. Whether you quit because you know its over or it blows up in your face when you didn't see it coming because you weren't paying attention.
"A lot of the younger generation is now interested once again in knowing where their food comes from and can be once again “open” to things like hunting"
Interested in where their food comes from! Emphasis on "food".
It would be nice if we could convince more school districts to encourage HE/BHE classes as eligible for the social responsibility assignments students are regularly given today.
This debate always seems to simultaneously conflate and ignore aspects of hunting that are related to shooting mature animals and animals not conventionally considered good table-fare. I'll try and touch on a few.
1) Per the definition, I don't know I've ever met a "trophy hunter." Distilling the hunt down to purely the display of "trophies" doesn't capture the motivations of any hunter I've ever conversed with.
2) The definition leaves out the fact that even though some animal parts are kept as "trophies" to display, I'd venture to say that most animals are still consumed. Additionally, I know plenty of people whose primary motivation is to fill the freezer but will still hold onto a set of antlers or a bear hide as a trophy. It has nothing to do with "power."
3) The definition of the antis also completely ignores the necessity of managing species numbers and species demographics. This is as true for the big predators and other charismatic mega-fauna as it is for your run of the mill whitetail deer.
4) The people I consider trophy hunters I know are people who are extraordinarily selective in the types of animals they harvest. They pass multiple animals and often leave tags unpunched waiting for the right one. They often spend money for the opportunity to chase the quality of animal they are chasing. They are driven by challenge and seek out new experiences. Do they often have a "trophy room" full of animals? Yep. Is that only what it's about? Not even close.
Now let's look at a hunter who sets a goal of shooting a P&Y buck with a bow with minimal assistance and definitely w/o a guide. If successful, the hunter is going to have it scored and entered because that is the only way to be sure that it is a P&Y buck. Clearly a Trophy Hunter by Frank's definition. Let's say that the hunter is successful, uses a scorer that he does not know personally and enters the buck without telling anyone. No one that matters to him knows about it nor will any else take notice. This seems to be acceptable to most on here. What if the hunters told friends? Is the hunter now hunting for ego? Was the WR sheep guy hunting for ego or to meet a challenge? I have some idea what is an acceptable challenge for me but I surely cannot judge someone else.
Now let's look at a guy who decides that a yearly buck taken with a selfbow that he made plus arrows that he made from tree stems and heads that he made from flint would be a great trophy to him. He tells everyone that will listen what his goal is. He starts a blog that covers every detail along the way. He discovers that it is a tough journey, so he finally gets some help making the bow, the arrows and the heads. All of this is shared on his blog. He finally kills a young buck. His wife and kids will not eat it so he gives the meat away. He shares that if it wasn't for the blog he would have not persevered. It was a matter of pride. Is he a trophy hunter? What is the big difference between him and the WR sheep hunter? They both were doing it for personal satisfaction which could be called ego.
This is bowsite so we all are choosing the challenge of hunting with a bow. At what point is our choice of weapons a matter of challenge or ego? Is hunting with a recurve better than a compound or hunting with a compound better than hunting with a crossbow or hunting with a bow better than hunting with a rifle? Does ego enter in? We can argue this forever.
And I'm betting when cat hunting is on the ballot, whether in 22 or 24, it will still be banned by a large margin. OTOH, if banning deer hunting was on the ballot, it would fail by a huge margin.
To us, hunting is "hunting" so long as it's legal. To nonhunters, there is a sliding scale of acceptability, which has been proven over and over in large surveys.
Sorry. I know. But cat hunting is one of the "mega" predators that get everyone's panties in twists. Because again, people with no clue cannot get past the emotion/cuteness factor (like with wolves). Would a media campaign aimed directly at educating people about cat hunting do any good? I don't know in Colorado. . . Maybe not anywhere.
If it gets to a ballot they think about it for about 5 seconds. Older voters may be more inclined to see our side because they are of a different generation. We are totally hosed with younger voters.
"It is the non hunting voters we must appease, not other hunters."
Jaq and MB hit on the head what I was trying to convey but was not articulate enough.
I don't care about record books, and whether you guys enter them or not. On multiple occasions I have openly admitted that I could always feed my family if deer were around, but I am not good enough to take mature animals (with headgear or not) on a regular basis. This includes matriarch does.
It's not me that hunters have to worry about. While jj's hunt is not my cup of tea, I had no problem with the hunt, only the public release of the video.
Clearly, how the non-hunting public defines "trophy" is all that matters to our future ability to hunt. BEG, I usually agree with you, not this time. Goyt has it right about hunters having different definitions, but IMHO that misses the mark also. Jaq keeps telling us about the losses at the voting stations, those losses will continue to mount unless as was pointed out a huge PR/education campaign is undertaken soon. Thanks!
HFW, we talk and we talk but that’s as far as it gets!
A more succinct term that the left hasn't accosted would help, because most people who trophy hunt are simply looking for mature animals and they typically are consuming the animals they eat too.
To be honest, they don't get that idea from out of no where. We have a decent amount of that going on in the hunting world. Not a majority, but enough and in the public eye enough to be an issue.
My students would say trophy means the meat, if used, is secondary and the antlers are the priority.
A definition close to this would maybe help?
To me, that was the definition of "trophy hunting" and it enlightened me to a whole new breed of so-called hunters that I was unfamiliar with. It was also one of the primary reasons I got out of the business.
On the detriment side I think that anything that provides the perception that the animals don't have a chance is detrimental. So many hunting shows involve baiting or hunting over food plots. If the viewer thinks that dumb animals just walk in and get killed people will see it as unfair.
The same thing goes for game farm hunts. I met some people who found out that I hunted. At a golf outing they invited a guy who was also a hunter in their mind. We got to talking about elk hunting and he said that he shot his bull in NY. He got a great deal on a nice 5X5 from a farm that had to get rid of some surplus animals. My hosts did not know the difference between hunting wild elk and shooting one on a game farm. Although I support free enterprise, I do not think that it is helpful that some of the public thinks that we shoot tame animals in a fenced area.
For benefits I feel the best thing is for each of us to conduct ourselves in the best manner possible. If people like us, feel that we are ethical and want us to be successful as hunters what more can we ask for. Unfortunately, this is one of the biggest detriments in my opinion. It seems like every landowner has had way too much experience with trespassers or hunters that they gave permission to hunt that then showed up with a group of people or run ATVs through their fields. Garbage is in the woods and parking lots. Very little is said about the good guys, but everyone talks about the bad ones. I think that the public see this because it is in front of them much more than the TV shows or the record books.
GG, why are so into dividing hunters?
I guess that when and if I get back to Alaska to moose hunt and I give the meat to my niece that lives in Alaska will automatically define me as a trophy hunter even though my freezer is so full with venison that I have to can venison before I can pick up the Buck that I have at the processor now!
I’ll bet most of those guys flew to the hunt that you helped outfit! How could you take money from people like that?
And the argument was also framed as "trophy hunting" because hunters really don't eat the meat, they just say they do, according to the narrative.
Yep, the video clips of bears running in and digging donuts out of barrels with a hunter sitting in a tree above sure didn't help us when people had to vote on it.
It was about 50/50 fly versus drive for our clients. The thing was, we even provided an option to have our flying client's meat shipped to them after processing and freezing for a shipping fee only. The vast majority simply didn't want it. And these weren't guys who already had freezers full of wild game.
I could go on and on about the ugly side of 'trophy hunting' that I saw in those 3 short years. I got into the business for all the wrong reasons. In hindsight, it was one of my worst career moves, and I'll regret capitalizing on the whole 'trophy hunting' thing for the rest of my life.
New glasses so you won’t make fun of me!
"It's a trophy hunt," Deanna Meyer, the executive director for PPC, told FOX31. "They're taking animals for joy."
Meyer stressed a distinct difference between "ethical hunting" and "trophy hunting," stating the latter is motivated by the "complete glee and elation (expressed by hunters) at the kills that they've performed," whereas ethical hunting is exclusively motivated by survival and food."
We all know this is ridiculous, but that's how we're being framed in the MSM. Hunting for food and "survival" is ok. If we enjoy it, we are "trophy hunters".
Ambush, I am not expecting to see anything.
If you didn’t already have a freezer full of wild game, those 2 bucks would certainly be trophies in my book. As it is, I consider them food in the bank for future years. You’re a true hunter in my book, my friend.
Nick, not at all! Managing for trophy quality is accomplished by managing the does. And a meat hunter like myself is glad to oblige!
That didn’t work out the way you intended I’m sure;-)
Out here, people have sincerely asked me if you CAN eat the meat!!
I have practiced looking incredulous for just these occasions. ;)
Great opportunity to let them know that the meat is the whole point of the exercise… which has led to a startling number of 180s in thinking.
I also usually mention (if given a chance) that I tan all of my hides and make small, scrimshaw-type “ornaments” from antler and cordage from sinew and generally try to make use of as much of that Free Range, Organic meat (and the whole animal) as possible….
Basically, the average non- hunter is smart enough to grasp the idea that its about a lot more than just Killing Stuff if you lay our a credible case that it means more than that to you.
Sincere Love-Making, Prostitution and Rape all look alike if all you pay attention to are the moving parts. But they’re not the same thing.
I'll take the bait. Live for droppin' the string on big mature animals.... flips my switch like nothing I've ever done. What else do you have in your life that makes you shake? Shoot plenty of does and such for the freezer. But I'll be honest..... it's not the same. Not at all. And if someone doesn't understand why..... I don't think they ever will. Ever. Like a big wave rider trying to explain it to a non-surfer. And honestly again.... I don't care if they do or don't understand. It's not my place to explain great adventure or excitement to anyone. A great many live their lives in strict avoidance of real adventure or excitement.
Mankind has valued big animals from the dawn of time. Although their equipment and lives usually boiled it down to whatever opportunity was quickest and easiest, because they all came hard.... the oldest cave drawings depict the stories. Stories of great hunters and hunts told for generations long before the written word. I don't get exited because it may impress anyone. I get exited because it flips that genetic switch. "Can't eat the horns" true dat. But shazam! Seems the big ones are made of meat too. Sometimes quite a bit more of it.
Shouldn't have to defend "trophy hunting" to anyone any more than liking pretty, sexy girls. Also like powerful cars. Lifted trucks that actually get me where I need to go (mostly that I built, not many bolt on mods for '76 scout....) I've had greenies tell me such a vehicle shouldn't be on the road... but they don't go anywhere. Go figure. Good bird dogs, working dogs in general. Sexy O/U shotguns. Finally found some 6.5 Grendel ammo and when the night vision scope comes in I'm about to fire up a pig killing AR-15 machine that I built up from a receiver. Some guys hunt yotes with em..... I'm on a hog control mission that's tough to fill with sharp sticks. But I think it's gonna be fun.... Feel like Julie Andrews.... "these are a few of my favorite things....."
Love good action movies. Fine tools.... a good rib-eye steak and seafood.... Witcher III Wild Hunt, Geez, the list goes on of things that some folks have some opinion on as bad for mankind. Or whatever kind. I couldn't care less that anyone else doesn't like what I like. Couldn't care less what anyone else likes. But nether am I going to tell you what YOU should or shouldn't like. For our own good don'cha know.
Point is it's up to me to find and do what I like. And I'll talk all day long with anyone on why I do what I do and why I like to do it.... if they are honestly interested. If they just want to argue or virtue signal, which is pretty easy to spot.... I'm done. See ya. Have a nice life. Kinda doubt it, but hope you have one anyway....
If anyone wants to have an HONEST conversation on "trophy" hunting I'd be glad to have one with them. Problem is very few are honest. They just want to tell you what you should or shouldn't like and do, usually because somebody you don't know doesn't like it or do it. Tell you you should "feel" about it. And what they feel they can ALLOW you to do.
See: "Have a nice life" above.
Thought Rick's response deserved a second post. Best response on this entire thread IMO.
Rick, spot on! Trophy hunting for me just extends my season.
If I didn’t pass on animals I would only get to around 25% of the time. I just filled my last Georgia buck last week! That means that I hunted from September through December. Freezer is full already so he will turn into canned venison! At least ten of those jars will go to hunting camp in Ohio for a month this fall.
As for you meat hunters I feed about three families with venison every a year including mine with our liberal bag limits. Friend who don’t hunt but love venison can be an asset! As Charlie stated “ love to see arrows passing through animals!
So, the non-hunters may get the impression that we're *only* interested in the 'trophy' aspect of the hunt. Maybe we need to present trophy hunting in balance with consumption of the entire animal?
(I don't watch any hunt videos, are some guys doing this already? Hope so.)
GG, I can except your thoughts and applying those thoughts to your life. Personally, I think that you That you have Matt’s rules to live by and that’s OK just as long as you don’t expect everybody else to live by your standard.
Unfortunately, from reading many of your post in the past I don’t think that is the case!
Other than that and your political inclinations I think you’re a helluva a good guy!
That’s OK, last night I had one of the best conversations through PMs with someone that I normally don’t agree with since I’ve been on Bowsite!
We were talking about hunting, imagine that!
And Matt is a good man, I know from experience.
Well, only two coyotes observed this morning. I didn’t get it done like I had hoped. But, I bet you older gents will agree, harvest or not, the experience and memories are the true trophies!
I assume you are asking if there is an organized effort to educate the public as to what trophy hunting actually is and how it benefits conservation?
I don’t know of any. I certainly do not possess the leadership or soft skills to move any organized effort forward.
I am privileged to teach 150 plus students each semester, and I try not to waste an opportunity to discuss issues important to hunters at the end of each semester. Probably not the best spokesperson for it, but I hope it makes a difference.
Lots of red tape out there! I am the faculty advisor for the Outdoors Club at our school. I envisioned getting some members into bow hunting, but our insurance czar ruled this out. I took a group camping on our farm and had to provide the school an insurance policy. When my company asked what we would be doing, our activities were limited so as not to risk injury. Going outside the agreed coverage left my wife and I liable.
We try and introduce youth, but this gets more difficult as I get older, lol. Joined the PY Club because you guys convinced me they are great for conservation. Probably all of you do similar or greater efforts. We would probably agree it is not enough though.
We do need some leadership on this, and some articulate non-confrontational folks to spear head it IMO. And we have numerous ones here that can do it. Pat has contacts, and experience with difficulties of even owning trophies in his home state.
The definition of trophy certainly needs better explanation, but also that the meat is what we desire first. MO has a great Feed the Hungry program, but I don’t think it is well known. And some states may have curtailed similar programs due to CWD?
Jaq has a ton of experience in CO, maybe Lou after getting your heart challenges squared away you could help start a national awareness campaign? You have what it takes!
The pursuit of bone has made access highly difficult because of leasing. I hunt both KS and MO. The former allows baiting, the latter does not. MO’s northern tier counties are known for producing bigger racks, and the closer you get to IA the harder it is to find access to land not under contract, nearly impossible.
I did say difficult access, not impossible if you can afford it and I suspect many will say something along the lines of “work hard to pay for it if you want it”. That’s just not always realistic IMO.
"Trophy hunting" is like labeling someone an "Asian." People from Japan, China, Indonesia, Korea, etc, see themselves as very different peoples.
When I ask people what they think a trophy hunter is, they fall into two camps: 1. African hunters who kill animals like rhinos and lions and people think they do it all for hubris. And 2. (and much more commonly) people who kill animals for the head and don't eat the meat.
I'M NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS WHAT A TROPHY HUNTER IS. I'm saying that this is what I get when I talk to non-hunting folks and people who are pure meat hunters.
Personally, I'm an adventure hunter, a meat hunter, and a trophy hunter. I do aim to get trophy animals, but I also shoot a ton of WT does and game meat is what I eat year round (and I absolutely love flinging arrows at WT does).
Still, even though I'm after the meat, nothing gets me going like a mature animal and I think that's a bit instinctual.
Rattling, this worked I this worked until the 90s. Since then mass communication by the anti hunters are winning the battle!
I did a google search that started with “is trophy” and here is what google wanted you to see!
We are still doing the same old sh!t!
Trying to win the debate one person at a time!
I agree with Rocky's response. I also agree there is no national campaign, but one is sorely needed. Keep doing the 'one hunter at a time' campaign though for sure. Thanks.
What is everyone using to judge the growth of the anti-hunting population? I think that they are struggling to get support in today's environment. I am not seeing it in Ohio. Of course, we still need to keep working to support hunting. I see more hunters attacking some definition of trophy hunting than I do non-hunters probably because they feel that it is negatively affecting their hunting opportunities.
Here's one of Colorado's "Hug a Hunter" videos that was on mainstream media. They had a number of them. Still won't help when "trophy hunting" is on the ballot because most who approve of hunting disapprove of trophy hunting.
Sadly, we are a fickle lot!
Even more sad is the fact that every time that I try to psychologically figure this out is that I keep coming up with that it must be a lot of people who suffer from penis envy!
Nowadays, I am glad that someone actually hunts! By hunt, I mean that they buy a license and go to the woods.
sounds good on paper...until one group decides to fight to change what is legal in order to support what they like.
CO CPW ran a series of those commercials for a few years. Hug a Hunter and Hug a Fisherman. They were well done. Whether they made any difference remains to be seen,because polls show the large majority of nonhunters already approve of hunting - for meat.
Killing a beautiful animal that no idy ever sees but everyone wants to, simply for the fur and "enjoyment", is an easier emotional narrative to sell.
Joq’s comment really got me to thinking about how could we have gotten to this point!
The only topics that may be as divisive and polarizing on Bowsite would be the leftist support the party that seems hell bent on the second amendment, hunters, and hunting, baiting!
I just couldn’t get past these thoughts and could only come up with one that would support their negative position on trophy hunting.
The only thing that I could come up with is how do I make myself feel better than others without doing anything!
So, I made a this list of some of those.
Bow vs gun
Longbow vs recurve
Compound vs crossbow
Non trail camera user vs train cam user
Public land vs private
Non baiter vs baiter
DIY vs guided
I am sure that there are more issues and that much could be personal preference but I think that if it was just personal preference then we we would be more accepting of others choice or methods.
Also, I don’t do not think that this is a conscious decision on most of these issues but is strictly a subconscious function of the brain that sadly we humans do.
Check out Treelines thread about the push to ban trophy hunting in AZ. Only the beginning.
After doing some research I found that confirmation bias is actually a survival mechanism that stems from the amygdalae. This is part of what they call the reptilian brain!