Bowsite.com

Not a shot for the inexperienced hunter, you must know anatomy intimately, and the shot be within 10 yards.

Anything beyond this IMO is too much risk.

You are normally talking about an animal who is looking DIRECTLY at you. One flinch from you or him means a wounded animal.

The weight of your setup should not make that big a difference here (given it's decent for elk), as a proper shot will not need to penetrate any bone.

I don't know about the butt shot, never had that opportunity. It would be harder for me feel good about it I think. There is also a good chance that you'll get a quartering away shot in a few steps, and I'd rather take that shot. Slip it in right behind the ribs...

the THING, we will need some more info on your negative response. Obviosly, the texas heart shot is a bad idea, though it does kill animals.

THe point is, no ytour quarry intimately, at any given time they will be giving you a lethal opportunity, know the ones you can take or can't... ALL shots on game should only be taken AFTER knowing intimately where the arrow should be placed. In my experince, the frontal shot is a great shot. More lethal than possibly any other. Animals hit right "frontally" will die, fast. Even textbook broadside shots sometimes are lost.

Of course, you could just look it up in the past threads, you'll have hours of reading.

Good huntin Mike in Mo.

oldbowhunter, are you still out there? You posted an awesome picture once of the bulls frontal skelatal structure.

"This is a basic shot, providing you understand elk anatomy and skeletal structure.

There are several points to make, so that if you decide to take this opportunity you can pull it off successfully.

1. The sternum (brisket)projects ABOVE the pectorals. Aim too low and you get into trouble. However, theres only ribs on either side of the sternum. So if he has a front leg back, there's a pathway to the vitals between the sternum and the humerus.

2. There is a large void framed by the cervical vertebrae (spine), sternum, scapulae and humeri. From directly in front, there's not even a rib to impede the broadhead. Use the outline of the bottom and sides of the dark mane as a benchmark, but stay ABOVE the sternum. Too high is better than too low.

3. Seldom does an animal wind up facing you squarely. Don't forget to figure the angle to the vitals.

4. How often do you practice shooting to a mark from 10 feet? 5 yards? 10 yards? 15 yards? You need to be as familiar with where your bow hits at these ranges as you are where it hits at 20, 30, 40, etc.

Once you know where the zone is, shoot with confidence.

OBH"

I think you were the one who posted it. IT could hae been BB though.

I have a few pics I could dig up. IT is also lethal hitting them quartering hard to you, in front of the front leg. Again, the anatomy of the animal screams, shoot me here. No bones to speak of.

If the above bull, that was hit with this shot, was hit in the right spot, the arrow would bury in at least a foot in a half. it is all soft tissue in there. If not, like I stated, it would barely penetrate, and the bull would limp away.

But in the end, a Democrat is hard pressed to turn into a Replublican, as was once said be Norseman. If you might plan on taking any shot than the textbook broadside, learn it and know it. If not, don't take it. And, if you're not confident, don't take it. If you hate it, then hate it, and don't take it. I will continue to kill elk this way. keep smilin guys....this could get long.

From my own experience on a Big Bull (I screwed it up on A Broadside Herd Bull coming in to drink at 18 yards). I had all the time in the world, relaxed, aimed true and sunk my arrow exactly where I would have placed it if I could have walked up and pushed it into him.

Now, I would shoot a bull mid body (height wise) and 10" back from the shoulder if the near leg is straight down before I would wack another Big Herd bull in the exact spot that you dream of hitting on other game just behind the leg "crease".

IN fact, the very next morning after I hit the big herd bull that I shouldered my arrow about 2" deep into, and my arrow just popped out of him, I shot a cow mid body (way farther back than I previously would have ever shot before). Being leary of that shoulder blade, my arrow sunk home between the front and rear legs, and down she went within sight! You are far better off whacking an Elk through the front of the liver/rear portion of the lungs than being a "10" spot shooter and catching that shoulder blade in the textbook spot you would kill other game on.

Even better, wait until that near leg moves forward and then smack them when the vitals are opened up!

As for me, I've never attempted a frontal shot. NO need to if you are patient and wait a few extra seconds for the shot angle to present itself. IF it doesn't, well then I just take advantage of when it does.

I really like the guys who talk about how many deer they have killed with frontal shots and claim they would do the same on elk. I'm guessing they have NO experience with elk.

It seems this topic is an annual event.....

Helo

solrac

You will get your bull some day, in the mean time, enjoy the HUNTING experience. It's not all about killing.

if you can't, don't

The purpose of some of these threads is to encourage or discourage particular behaviors from our fellow bowhunters. There are a lot of "newbies" who are easily influenced here by what they see and read.

I know a lot of guys who "think" they can put an arrow in a 3" circle from 10 yards with a bull elk in their face, but the fact is, most can't. This is what we are talking about with this shot, and there is little room for error.

I've been on 2 hunts where hunting partners have wounded bulls. They weren't even my animals and I must tell you all it's the worst feeling in the world.

More times than not, if the bull is that close, you will get a chance at a broadside shot, with a lot bigger kill zone.

Don't be hasty in the heat of the moment, the worst that can happen is you get to hunt the bull another day.

I will attach the pictures I did from last year's thread. If you aren't 100% confident, don't take the shot.

I will attach the pictures I did from last year's thread. If you aren't 100% confident, don't take the shot.

It's a deadly shot, period, for those who have the confidence & composure, if you get rattled, stay away from it.

Idahos legal arrow wt. requirement is 400grns, anything around that & heavier with razor sharp heads will not be stopped by a properly placed frontal shot at under 20yds. There is no bone to contend with unless you're are off on your shot!

Given the right opportunity & I'll take it in a second. I would not shoot through branches or brush in an attempt to force an arrow through on this shot or any shot.

ElkNut1

Thanks for liking me, I like you too, and you guessed wrong. I'm guessing that there are guys that have hunted 20 species more than you have that would take the right frontal shot.

Unit 9er is correct, we just need to try to make guys think about the shot before flinging an arrow. I've been hunting a long time, and I've lost a few deer and one elk (braodside, btw, but high) over those years. It is a sickening feeling and every one of them has re-enforced that I don't want it to happen again. Bottom line is that I can't tell you what I will do until that split second arrives. The older I get though, the less important the kill is and I am much more apt to let down.

I completely respect anyone that does not want to take that shot, good for you, I only wish some of those same guys would show a little respct for those that choose to take it. Just because you took the shot doesn't mean you are inexperienced, bloodthirsty, or that you have no feelings for the animal.

I was apalled and would not have taken the shot myself.

That image is one that I believe Old Bowhunter posted a few years back. I saved it because of its clarity. However, if it isn't an elk, that's a problem and I won't post it next year. :)

Now that you mention it, that protusion in the picture never made sense to me either. I'll have to check that out carefully when I cut up my bull this year. :)

I'll be sure and take some good pictures!

There are young bowhunters reading this garbage thread and making conclusions about shots that they may/may not take in the future. It is not that hard to only take a high probability broadside shot. As we all know, even this is far from a guarantee, but it has a much greater probability of a quick kill and subsequent harvest.

I can't believe I was dragged into this pathetic thread!!!

Helo

If you shoot at game past 20 yards, use mechanical broadheads or shoot a compound, there are folks out there you disgust. I learned long ago to based my ethics on my capabilites and limitations - and not someone else's.

The simple fact is that the frontal shot is high percentage if you understand where to put the arrow and have the capability to do so under pressure. I don't, but I won't criticize those who do for doing so. If you are prone to taking shots where your understanding of shot placement is suspect or where you lack the proficiency to accurately place the arrow, I don't think the angle of the animal much matters.

I passed a broadside shot at 15 feet on a 330+ bull one year. I didn't know the anatomy of the leg and scapula that well. I actually had a window directly to the heart and didn't know it. I didn't have the confidence or knowledge I needed for the shot at that time. Today that would be one dead bull.

Target size. That part seems odd. If it's ethical to take a 20 yard shot at a grouse and the whole grouse is smaller than the frontal shot kill zone then what's the deal with the size? When I shoot at grouse I aim for the junction of the neck and body and do a pretty good job of hitting it at that range. It's about picking a spot.

I had a bad broadside shot at a semi relaxed bull last year. He's just got run off by a herd bull and was worried about him. He didn't know I was there. Between the release and impact on a 20 yard shot he hopped forward and his front feet dropped from the rock he had them on to the ground below. I hit him in the spine well back. The arrow flew true but he moved. .22 seconds is longer than you think sometimes but that's hunting. We aren't shooting a 3D round. Live animals can and do move at unexpected times, even if they are broadside and you have a clear lane.

Everyone has their own risks they're willing to accept. Everyone has their own skill set. I have a partner that has shot at and missed 18 elk. Complete misses at 18, 20, and 25 yards from a guy that can drill coffee cup sized groups at 50 yards all day long...at targets. He gets too excited when he's facing a live elk I guess. When I hunt with him he's the designated caller and we split the elk. I don't want to subject the elk to the chance he might get closer to the mark and wound one.

I don't know if I'll take a frontal shot if I have the chance. If I'm shooting well, and I shoot every day I hunt before I leave camp and in the afternoon, and everything else is right I might...or it might not feel like it's going to work and I won't.

For someone that's never put an elk on the ground with an arrow I'd say it was too risky. For someone that's got a few under their belt and can read animals well and can shoot well then it might not be.

Also, if they don't go down quick you have an almost nonexistant blood trail!

Too much room for error!

Sorry I disgust you, but I'll still take the shot. Is there the risk of a wounded animal, absolutely. There is that risk everytime you draw back the string.

However, think about the wounding risk on a broadside shot. Most guys who miss hit high or back. If they miss high, they get one lung and little or no blood trail. It is probably 30/70 on whether the one lunged bull survives. Most die, but guys have butchered elk with broadheads in the high lung area.

If you miss back, it is a gut shot that will invariably kill the elk but often result in a lost animal.

If you miss to far forward, you get 2" of penetration and often an arrow that bounces off the scapula. The bull is sore, but will generally be fine.

On a head on shot, if you miss high, as long as you are still centered, you will likely get the aorta or another large artery. If you don't, you probably have a severely wounded elk that will be very difficult to find. Obviously, that is a very bad thing.

However, if you miss to right or left, most likely your broadhead will slide on the outside of the rib cage and leave a flesh wound from which the bull will heal. If you miss low, same thing. A friend of mine hit a bull a number of years ago broadside where two of the three blades lodged in the sternum (broadside shot) and the third blade got enough vital tissue that the bull only went 45 yards. Bottom line is that you can't shoot too low unless you skim under the chest bone cavity.

I would only take the shot in the perfect situation. Two years ago, I passed it up on a 350+ bull at 24 yards. I'm 98% sure I would have made the shot. However, 98% is not good enough for me anymore.

Don't take shots you aren't sure of. I won't either.

Aim low, shoot straight and have a great hunt!

I apologize that I came across a little too strong. I didn't intend to make my comments into a personal attack....sorry. I just have a great deal of respect for elk and I have witnessed too many shots go bad. For me, it is simple these days...clear, high probability shot only, otherwise I'll pass. This, of course, is made easier by the fact that I have been fortunate to have taken many bull elk with my bow. Over the years my perspective has changed....the HUNT is what I truely enjoy.

Have a great hunt this year,

Helo

I would take that shot under 15 yards all day.

As for set-up I shoot a Mathews SB #70, GT 7595 and Magnus Snuffer 125.A heavier set-up like this should drive that arrow plenty deep for a quick ethical kill.

No problem. We disagree on the shot and I understand your passion for elk. I share it with you. I've seen your threads around on the bowsite enough that I wasn't offended by your comment. I knew it was more venting than directed at me or others. I respect your point of view even when I disagree with it.

I pray you have a great hunt this year and have a monster broadside at 12 yards.

You guys are right, there's less armor up front in an elk...

My streak is still in tack. The picture above was taken from my blind, which you can notice on the left side of the photo. Front shots have treated me much better than any other.

Have a great bowhunt BB

Great shot TY... only thats a heart and not a caribou you need to get a refund..

now that is funny!

Have a great bowhunt. BB

I've sen BB shoot his bow, as I have with several other "advocates" on this thread. These guys KNOW that they can make this shot. For this reason, "ethics" differ for each individual archer as to whether they "should" attempt the frontal shot. From the very beginning of this thread the statement made by many is that the frontal shot is not for everyone. Heck I've seen guys shaking so bad with a screaming bull standing broadside at 15 yards that any shot would be unethical.

This all comes down to being prepared when the "moment of truth" arrives. Am I prepared and able to make this shot? For myself, I practice hard with my equipment so I know without a doubt that I can "thread a needle" and stuff an arrow into that cantelope sized frontal opening.

Have a great bowhunt BB

As for some, we KNOW when the situation is right, we KNOW how to execute the frontal shot... and we've seen time and time again the results of the correct arrow placement. As BB said, any arrow that misses it's mark has the potential of being a bad hit. Take the shot that you KNOW you can execute, not "think" you can. If you KNOW the anatomy, what angle that bull needs to be, and can pound an egg at XX yards 100% of the time, then the frontal shot is a perfect shot. That doesn't mean we'd pass on a broadside shot waiting for the frontal. But if that bull is inside my comfort zone and offers me the frontal shot, that bull is toast.

Horses aren't elk, but the structure of the sternum and rib cage of elk and other deer don't differ much from the horse's anatomy shown in these 3 pictures. A whitetail's ribs are thinner than an elk's etc, but the "ring" formed where the first ribs join the sternum is pretty much the same... as is the shield of bone formed by the successive ribs.

I'd still like to know what that 3D critter was...

What I will never understand is how an obviously experienced bowhunter could advocate taking the frontal shot to an audience, like the one here at the Bowsite.com, that is filled with so many newbies and relative newcomers to the sport. They must realize what is required to pull off a shot on an animal that is facing them without alerting that animal and winding up with a bad hit.

Had my archery skills then been what they are now that bull would have been dead. He wasn't directly facing me, it was a quartering shot but the fact remains that he saw me move, saw me shoot, and didn't jump. I tried to get another arrow out of my quiver and it was then that he calmly backed away and turned. He walked about 4 yards and the all hell broke loose.

The other elk I shot under due to dropping my bow hand at the release. He had watched me draw, saw the arrow fall off of the rest, watched me nock it again, draw again, and shoot. He didn't move until the arrow passed under him and buried in the ground under a log behind him.

Not all bull elk during the rut are jumpy. Not every elk that sees you is going to spook.

It's also quite possible that the bull will be facing you and looking past your position for the elk he thought you were. I always move after I call, generally toward the bull I'm working. I like to give them as little usuable information about me as possible and my location is the big one I like to keep them guessing about.

Now days at 10 yards I can pick a spot the size of a US quarter and put three arrows in a row in it. At 20 yards I've shot grouse at the base of the neck. So putting an arrow where it need to be at 10 yards at a softball or grapefruit (pink, from Texas) sized target really isn't too iffy. In fact it's far less iffy than me shooting at a broadside standing elk at 25 yards those years ago when I missed him.

That was a perfect position and an ethical shot for any beginner to have taken. Until I missed that elk my accuracy at that range was very good but things change in the field and some habits need to be ingrained for years for them to stick out there. After having a few archery killed elk you learn things you didn't know before and you can apply them to later chances. I'm just glad that the perfectly ethical shot I tried to make was a complete miss rather than a gut shot.

I don't see where anyone is saying a newbie should go out and try an advanced shot like a frontal shot. For them even the "perfect" broadside shot isn't a sure thing...although in all reality they aren't really a sure thing for any of us. They just get closer to being sure as time goes on.

I'm a very good skier. I ski stuff that risks my life from time to time. Should I not talk about it in case some guy with three days on skis wants to try it too? In any endeavor from driving to flying a plane to bowhunting you learn more after your intial training and education than you knew the first day after you got your first license. The things you learn in the beginning are designed to get your "feet wet" and what you learn from there should allow you to progress in your skills.

It's not up to me, or anyone else, to determine what any individual hunter is capable of. That is for them to decide by taking as critical a look at their skills as they can and then assessing what they can and can't do. Hunting is mostly an individual thing. I don't view it as a sport, certainly not a team sport. Even if you're partnered or teamed up to call elk it still comes down the the individual that looses the arrow or passes the shot to make that critical decision for themselves and live with the outcome of it.

Shooting a straight on shot is not a shot for everyone. Nor is it a shot that should be taken at 40-50-60 yards like those taken on broadside animals by many of the same people who are posting on this thread against anyone taking a front on shot.

Let's take a theory that says:

If you shoot and hit an animal that you don't recover then you can never take that shot again, because it is not a good shot"

Those against this shot will jump right on this bandwagon, but if you apply the same thinking to broadside hits that are not recovered, there are very few of you who would be able to continue to bowhunt, because most of us have hit and lost critters that were BROADSIDE or QUARTERING AWAY. These are the two main acceptable standards, but more game percentage wise is lost with those two shots than the animals lost that are close in and straight on. I would bet my net worth on that, and yet there are no studies done to validate the difference between these two lines of thinking. Why do you think that’s the case?

Personally, over 45 years of bowhunting has shown me beyond any doubt, that close in straight on shots are not only bowhunting’s most deadly shot, but its rate of recovery is far better than those of the “acceptable shots”! It also will yield a far better blood trail in most instances than will most broadside shots. Quartering away shots, although acceptable by most, end up killing a lot of critters that are never recovered because many of those hits don’t generate enough blood on the ground to follow the fatally wounded critter.

May I ask any of you why this is acceptable?

The front on shot is not for everyone, nor is the broadside or quartering away. Distance and a bowhunters ability to execute has far more to do with the final outcome of any of these shots than the way the animal is facing.

Personally, the frontal shot or the straight way shot, are the only two shots I could shoot in bowhunting if I had to adhere to the theory I explained above. I have never lost one animal with either of those hits, but I sure lost my share of critters on broadside hits before I went to snuffers.

This is a very complex issue which many here really don’t have a clue! Sorry to say that, but a spade is a spade, and I will call it that!

Have a great bowhunt. BB

I've been hunting Elk for 34 years and agree with this statement..... But I could also add "Not all bull elk during the rut are jumpy. Not every elk that sees you is going to spook. And you can't tell 100% which is going to spook and which isn't."

Like Steely says it boils down to what level of risk you personally are willing to take.... You are the one who has to live with the repurcussions or rewards of your choice. No one can make that choice for you when the moment of truth comes. Right?? wrong??? I don't think it's that black and white.... It depends on your level of experience and skill..... Just make sure you educate yourself and have a realistic view of your skills before you head in to the ELk woods so that when the moment of truth arrives and you have to make a choice, you make the right one for you...... Terry

Many hunters don't realize the needed adjustment one should consider in his shot if the animal isn't exactly "head on" If he's slightly quartering to you, you can't kill this animal by hitting him dead center as easily as slipping an arrow between brisket & front leg. This would be the appropiate shot at that angle. I too agree a razor sharp head is crucial as well as COC head is best suited. So one must consider shot angle on frontal shots.

As I look back & count to the best of my recollection my son & I have taken 9 frontal shots on both deer & elk, 2 of those were deer, both 4-points. We've recovered 8 of the 9. The first time this shot was ever taken years back was on an elk, a beautiful 6 point at 17yds, he was head on to me, I shot for just off center, BIG MISTAKE!!! I was sick, I never found him. Yet I knew it was a deadly shot if done right.

I didn't quit there & say I'll never take that shot again, instead I looked into what I'd done wrong. ( studied an elks anatomy) I adjusted, & as you can see we've never lost another one!

This shot takes calm nerves, if you get easily rattled, let him walk, too, one must be under 20 yds for best odds of a humane & accurate kill.

Good Luck all !! ElkNut1

Flight time for my arrow at ten yards is right at .05 seconds. A fast reaction time to an unanticipated startling event, like a bow being shot, is something over .1 seconds in most animals.

I think major bowhunting organizations don't recommend the shot for the same reason nobody recommends jumping off of a 15 foot cliff when you're skiing...some people are going to have a bad result if they aren't ready for that kind of an activity. In fact some people will have a bad outcome to both things even if they are ready just like some people have bad results from the recommended ones. Your odds of success are better if you're prepared and the more experience you have the better you are at deciding for yourself if you're ready. No organization can tell you that in a booklet.

Rob

Bowhunter Education programs are great, and they set a good foundation of what beginning bowhunters need to know. However, it would be pretty sad if we all stopped educating ourselves after we finished Bowhunter's Ed. I've educated my 18 year old son on the aspects of the frontal shot and I am very comfortable with him taking that shot at short ranges. Once again I reiterate, the frontal shot isn't for everyone. If you get the shakes really bad with a bull in close, or maybe your shooting skills need improving, you will want to shy away from the shot.

I've learned alot from BB over the years, both here on the computer and on the ground in the mountains. When BB talks, I listen...and most would be wise to follow suit. There are a lot of you guys on here that have been bowhunting for a decade or so and maybe had some great success, killing 5-10 elk and a few deer...that kind of experience is very valuable and can make you feel like Superman...then you add in what your other buddies told you and what you read on the internet and such, and you really feel like you Know it All...But you don't, not if you haven't tried it yourself, Over and Over again...

That's what Bill has done, for many years and every move he makes, he remembers, he analyses it in his head and learns from it..every one. You simply CANNOT discount his experience with frontal shots. As he has stated many times...They are not everyone...not even for very many at all, but the guy who is ready to take it, with all the right gear and knowhow...is going to find out how deadly it is, just like Bill.

I wont take it because I shoot a lighter poundage longbow and I take Bill's advice very seriously...he wants to see someone shooting heavy poundage, heavy arrows, razor sharp cut on contact heads and Close range... I can do all, but not the heavy poundage..

Good Luck all,

Ernie

I took this picture several weeks ago while hunting mule deer. This picture was taken at roughly 10 yards. The bull is on a shelf and I am lower than him by perhaps 15 feet or so. Moose and elk are both very large critters, but both die in about the same way from a well placed arrow.

Who of you would take this shot if you had a moose permit and show us where you would want to hit him for a fast clean kill.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

Dr. Bob, your unwillingness to compare stethoscopes to stethoscopes confuses me. If you can hit the ocular organ, then you can most certainly hit a target the size of a large grapefruit...you can, right?

I can’t count the number of close encounters with bulls I’d had until I finally vowed to find the key to the frontal shot. I visited with vets, dissected numerous elk, and continued to honed my shooting. The first bull I tipped over using the frontal shot my little arrow disappeared completely. The bull lunged to the side, stopped 10 yards from where I hit him, and sprayed the world. Less than 10 seconds after my arrow disappeared he was on the ground. I just sat down, let the adrenaline engine take over…and stared at that bull, and the blood dripping from the branches of a tree. And I didn’t have to hit him in the eye.

The "heavy" equipment issue is the only part of this scenario, and a few others where BB and I agree to disagree. I'm not a big guy, so I can't shoot heavy gear. I only pull 63 pounds, and my short draw only allows a 27" arrow, which totals 402 grains with a T-head 100 doing the work. My bow/arrow combo is tuned to perfection, and I KNOW that within 20 yards where my pin settles is where my arrow is going to hit. Even if I miss my “spot” by three inches anyway, I’m still in great shape.

I'd shoot the moose with my compound right in the oval placed there. Same with an elk...I wont do it with my longbow...because I dont have the experience to say it will work and I dont have someone I trust telling me it will work...

Ernie

Can you imagine a football coach that says he will only send one play into his quarterback because it has the best chance to succeed? Can you see a major league baseball player waiting only for a fastball down the center of the plate because he hits them the best? Would I pass on a broadside shot with the hopes that the bull presents a frontal shot? Of course not, but you can bet your fanny that if that bull is in close, and presents a frontal shot I won't hesitate to dump the string. If the “Bowhunting Genie” gave me a choice, a 30 yards broadside shot vs. a 12 yard frontal shot, I’d take the frontal every time…

BTW, did you guys notice the shot placement on that big New Mexico bull taken with a ‘curve? Be a shame to have a big bull facing you, and not be a prepared bowhunter. I’m glad I would have to lament, “I have no regrets at all…I made the ethical choice by not shooting…coulda, woulda, shoulda…”

Thanx Rob

Here's a picture I took last year. I was just under 20 yards from this deer and almost the same level. I choose to shoot him with my camera in stead of my bow. But I would not hesitate on this shot if I was 15 yards away. I have found that it’s as deadly of shot as exists in bowhunting.

I really don't think Huntsman and I disagree on the heavy stuff. I am not as good of shot as Huntsman or most of you. At best I am only an average shot, and that's when I shoot a lot. But it's a lot like Huntsman using a very light rifle because he's a much better shot than me, and I use a 300 magnum for insurance. I really think that's the difference.

With that said, it’s a shot that needs to be carried out close, and if done so is most effective. Many people think that since an elk's vital are so big, that a 60-70 yard shot is very make able. And for many it is. But there's a lot that can happen in the time it takes an arrow to go that distance, and its a long ways to exaggerate your error if you’re off a bit.

That's why as deadly as the front on shot is, it should be taken only if the animal is very close. I like it 20 yards or less and prefer it 15 yards or closer. There is much less margin for error, therefore being close is a MUST. And few NA animals, with the exception of a pronghorn, can react fast enough, at 15 yards, if the arrow is on its way, That is not true at 30 yards or more. And this is one of the main reasons more animals percentage wise are lost to broadside or quartering shots than are lost to front on shots.

The deer pictured above is a good example to study and see where you would want your arrow to enter the animal.

Have a great bowhunt BB

Have a great bowhunt. BB

So should we all just tell the young and the old that there is no shot in bowhunting worth taking because we might miss?

To take it a step farther, if a person is not a good shot, then he has a much better chance of wounding a critter broadside than he does straight on because the area to hit is so much bigger. If he shoot a foot to the left or right on a frontal he misses the critter, but if he does that on broadside shot he either hits in the side of theneck (a no no) or in the guts (a no no).

I just don't understand why people think its okay to take broadside shots that posses the same risks or more (because the distances areusually farther) than it is to take a close in front shot. To me your theory and thinking doesn't hold much water.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

Is that better? Now it has a warning like every single. Cup of coffee, twistie tie, plastic bag and even tops on soda. Can we put a warning directly on the arrows next too.

"There isn't anyone on this site that has not missed an animal and if you can miss a animal you can miss that hole"

I would bet to say there are people on this site who have not missed an animal. Im out though, Ive missed a squirrel at 30 yards running on a limb im still ate up about.

BB I really appreciate these threads as said by others here and I think the responses on this one are going well. Its not for everyone, but some would like to have it a trick in our books. If for nothing else for follow up shots on a wounded animal. Though if under 10 yards there is no doubt I will take this shot if presented properly.

BB,

I'm not disagreeing with your, or anyone elses success with frontal shots. But you continually make this statement as if it is a fact. I have never seen and evidence of this being the case, nor have I seen any viable studies that would have tracked this percentage. Help me out will ya?

Bullbound, like I have stated many times, there are no statistics of which I am aware that bear out my statement other than my own. But I have been bowhunting for over 45 years and I've seen quite a bit happen through all those years and I've seen lots of trends and tendencies that I'm sure many don't see, because they are not searching. I am..

I have a number of different interests in life, but bowhunting is my real passion. I pay very close attention to the results of the shots I shoot and to those of other hunters. It's taught me a whole lot through the years. One main thing I have learned, is the broadside shot, although good, is not the holy grail of bowhunting. It is far from that and yet most hunters have been taught that it and the quartering away shot are bowhunting’s best. After what I have seen and learned through the years, I disagree.

I would be willing to say that over half the bowhunters on this site don't know where to aim at close in broadside critter. Many are still teaching, and think, that “behind the front shoulder" is the place to hit.

Bowhunting, like all other things, is ever evolving and one needs to keep on the learning edge. If one doesn't do this, it is akin to burying ones head in the sand

Threads like this seem to bring out the experts, many of which whose advise is given without anything but what they learned second hand.

You will always have people who refuse to learn, or change from their preconceived ideas. A good example of this is the pee bottle, (of which I used to use).. There will always be guys that think human urine scares the critters they hunt. Many of those people are have mind sets that don’t allow them to change, to learn and or to expand their knowledge. Their egos are far more important than is the truth. We see that in every day life and we see on this site. It’s human nature.

No one here is telling anyone to take this shot.. That is a choice that is left to each and every individual. All most of us who take the shot want others to know, that close in, with the right equipment or hunter , it is a very deadly shot that generally leaves a very good blood trail. If you don’t want to take it, that’s fine, but study up and be aware of what can and does happen on broadside shots.

Have a great bowhunt. BB .

Take it easy, Ernie, I'm not attacking your idol:) Right or wrong, I'm not saying, but I've been there & PASSED that!

"Bullbound, like I have stated many times, there are no statistics of which I am aware that bear out my statement other than my own. But I have been bowhunting for over 45 years and I've seen quite a bit happen through all those years and I've seen lots of trends and tendencies that I'm sure many don't see, because they are not searching. I am.. "

I don't know how much of your comments were directed at me, or if "Bullbound" was a typo, but I was not attacking you in any way. It is just that you've made that statement and, in the context of your message, it sounds as if it is a Fact. I understand that this is just your opinion. I do understand also that you've got alot of years of experience and I absolutely respect your opinion. It would be foolhardy to discount the opinion of anybody with many, many years of experience.

I may not agree with all of your opinions, just as you may not agree with all of mine. I do not, however, think that because someone doesn't agree with your opinion on something it automatically means that:

"You will always have people who refuse to learn, or change from their preconceived ideas."

And I don't think it means that:

"Their egos are far more important than is the truth."

Just because they don't agree with your opinion doesn't mean it's because of their ego. That statement can always be reversed.:)

The fact of the matter is I've had the shot (probably a dozen times under 15 yards) and passed each time. I'm not saying it isn't a very lethal shot. The only people that I know personally who have taken the shot are two good buddies of mine. They were both successful and didn't have to track much! Each has taken the shot one time. Myself, I'd rather take out both lungs from the side and have always opted to wait for that shot, or not let loose the arrow. I may take the frontal shot this week though.

For those that are proponents of this shot, I'd just suggest, if I can, that you continue to remind folks that this shot is only for up real close, and should not be taken unless you are absolutely sure of the animals anatomy, and are certain you can place the arrow in the perfect spot.

Very thought provoking thread...that is for sure. Hopefully everyone will come out of it a richer man.

I did mean to infer that anyone who doesn't agree with me (or anyone else) has an ego problem. But there are individuals, who because of their ego will never change their opinion. That comment was made to take in that class of people.

But on this site and in real life I stand by these two statements, (1) "You will always have people who refuse to learn, or change from their preconceived ideas." and (2) "Their egos are far more important than is the truth."

Those are just a facts of life, and to those people it’s not about truth, facts or anything like that, it is all about them, their power, their ego etc. Those people won't listen as they already know everything. We all know their kind. But the average joe who is seeking the real truth does not close their mind to learning and to advancing their knowledge.

We should all seek and try to discover the truth in all we do. That principle is just as true in bowhunting as it is in real life. Though the years I learned to listen to my arrow and to my broadhead. They don't lie; they don't deceive, they have no ego and no perceived ideas, they just tell it like it is. If more people would learn to listen to what their arrow and broadhead are saying, they would end up far better bowhunters. I try to tell others what my arrows and broadheads are telling me.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

hey bud, wait a minute! You're getting way, way too deep for me!:)

BB, Have a great day!

& bowhunt!

BB: If you are going to preach this kind of BS, maybe you need to place your own (X) on the picture. Apparently you didn't get the message across to Hornseeker and others.

I think everyone that agrees with what BB is preaching here needs to take a NBEF course.

Now, can this shot be lethal? Yes very much so. (IF) there is proper shot placement. The same can be said for a shot right up the old poop chute or reverse frontal shot.

There is one hell of alot of difference in shooting at a spot you can readily see as opposed to one that is covered with hair, bone, and muscle. Hornseekers example just goes to show me that even believers in this type of shot have no idea of what they are talking about.

I think Hornseeker would have killed both the animals he placed the dot upon. Look at the deer closely and see how's it is facing. He placed his x most perfectly for the travel of his arrow. On the bull which is actually a slight bit more straight on than is the deer, he realized the elk is standing at a higher elevation than is his position, and thus placed his X for the travel of his arrow.

I am a bowhunter ed instructor, so I have taken the course and also the instructors course. I will have to agree with you that it is time well spent and a lot of valuable can be derived from taking the course. But that course, like about everything else in this life is not infallible.

From my observations, and its only my personal observations, many of the instructors I know that teach this class are great individuals and very giving of their time, but most or many have little real experience in taking critters with their bow.

I might add, that when I took the course my eyes were opened a great deal. I was taught, by my father, who strictly rifle hunted, to always try to shoot a critter just behind the front leg. So for almost 30 years of bowhunting that is where I aimed on broadside shots. Once I took the course and realized the true make up of the front leg, and that the most vascular area was straight up the front leg and forward, I moved my aiming point forward and have watched the majority of the critter I have taken since then go down within sight.

So I would be the very last to say bowhunter education is not important. But I would also be one of the first to say that bowhunter education doesn’t have all the answers either. Everything in life can be improved upon. And that should be the goal of every individual and every program.

We should not loose site of the fact that all things, and that includes bowhunting has to be able to change and progress. There are always better and more improved ways to do things if one keeps an open mind and open eye.

There is probably no one subject that has turned more people against me than the straight on shot. Through the years I have received a lot PM’s and emails telling me what a jerk I was for telling people to take this shot. But never once have I ever told anyone to take this shot. I’ve only told them that with the proper equipment, and at a close distance, it is one of bowhunting’s most deadly shots. I think I would be burying my head in the sand if I didn’t tell others what I have experienced. I have also warned many about the things that can and do happen on broadside shots. I feel I owe this obligation to bowhunting itself, and that’s why I do it.

So again Bill, where would you place your X and how many critters have you taken with this shot?

And since you brought up the pooper shot, I have very strong feelings on that too. If one is close in and shoots under the hip bone, it too is a very lethal shot. Through the years I have taken a number of animals that way, I have never lost one of those either. It’s certainly not my favorite shot, but at very close range I would not hesitate to kill an animal in that manner. I know even more people detest that shot than the frontal, but that is my position, wither people like it or not.

Like I mentioned above, I listen to what my arrow is telling me, and I think if all hunters did that, bowhunting would be much better off and in the final analysis we would end up hitting and losing far less critters. And to me that is the very bottom line.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

I can show you photos of both deer & elk that have fallen to similar shot angles. When in close, it's deadly & doable!!! I'd take it in a second! With that said---

Frontal Shots Are Not For Everyone!! Be disciplined & stay within your comfort zones. Only we as individuals know our limitatations per shot, don't force them!!!

ElkNut1

ElkNut1

Paul: I totally agree with your last statement. This is the KEY to making this shot.

I have made the shot as has yourself and BB. But I certianly would never encourage others to do so not knowing their ability to stand firm in the path of a bull head on at close range.

BB: I'm sending you an email on an unrelated subject. I think you might be interested in it.

LOL! Thanks guys, always a pleasure to hear all the different opinions! Very educational, in many, many ways!

Have a great weekend boys. The seasons still open in some places??? Go give em that 2 min. drill!

Have a great bowhunt. BB

(And thanks for the back stuff. Although that isn't what I my problem is, I do know a lady that is suffering from that exact thing and will let her know. Again thanks.

ive shot 1 bull out of 4 pope bulls that was taken at 18 with a frontal. dead bull in 50 yards and the arrow was totally in the body cavity. blood was great.

And yeah, at the angle of my shot, that line is close, but I bet its just a tad steeper up hill. From the few elk I've examined up close, I'm above the brisket on that shot.

TD....Yyyyeeeepp.pp.pp. :0)

You can see where the bull's left scapula meets the humerus in the photo, and the same joint is visible on his right side... draw a line between the two joints. In my estimation, you need to either put your "X" more than 3 inches higher (if that marks a shooter's intended point of aim), and hope the bull doesn't drop his chin before your arrow arrives... or, do what most of us would do and wait for him to turn and take the better broadside shot.

Hitting the "grapefruit-sized opening" is only part of the battle. Knowing where that opening is located and the animal standing still for your arrow to hit that opening are a couple other big parts of that battle. Some of these guys can be pretty persuasive, let your own in-field experience tell you what is the best shot.

Tim

Rob

12 yards - 56#@29" - recurve - CX TERMINATOR SELECT 4560 - Grizzly 190 grn El Grande - 550 grns total arrow weight - entered just to the right of the windpipe and exited sixth rib - dead in under 20 seconds - recovery 30 yards.

He wont drop his chin in mid bugle! :0)

I cant wait to get another elk on the ground so I can take another look at that bit of anatomy. Hopefully I'll have the time and patience to do a little dissection and photo documentary...that may be usefully for all of us...especially me.

I am looking forward to the next 20 elk seasons and hoping that I'll get Lots of that "in the field" experience I need to be confident with what shots I am going to be taking. Hopefully I'll get a chance to hear what my arrow and broadhead have to say! I've stated above, that this shot is not for me anymore...I shoot a lighter weight longbow and feel like it doens't meet the criteria...

Merry Christmas All...I'm leaving on a trip and wont be around for a while.

Ernie

I admire your choice of not taking that shot because of the equipment you choose to use.

Good advice. I always let my own in-field experience tell me what is the best shot, and I have no problem taking a frontal shot on a bull when the situation is right. It has worked for me several times.

Having said that, the situation has to be right for a broadside shot also, it is not always a slam-dunk shot as some of you obviously beleive.

It is important to understand where the heavy bones are before taking a shot. Personally I think there is an opening larger than a "grapefruit" size on a straight on bull elk.

IMO, the key is to have the bull close and standing dead still. Of course "composure" is critical on a frontal as it is on any shot, including broadside.

It's just like the broadside shot, it’s very deadly if done properly. If not the results might be the same too.

Have a great bowhunt. BB

i dont think the question is should i have shot as much as should i archery hunt!!!!! If you truly did "think about shooting him in the eye" you really have no business carrying a bow...trade it in on a rifle, then take the shot...

Hotshot

Hotshot = ^)

Mike had some thoughts and did the right thing. Good for him. I've had those same thoughts on animals, just trying to find a way, any way, to slip one in there. In the end you decide for yourself. He made the right choice. Letting them walk is never a bad choice. Making a bad shot is always bad. I've made bad ones that I thought were slam dunks. Never saw the twig that deflected or the branch my bow limb dinked. Stuff happens.