Discuss Interactive Bloodtrail - 22
General Topic
Thanks Pat, great timing! They're starting to eat each other up here!
I'll keep an eye out for the tricks, but you always seem to get me somehow anyway!
Thanks again!
Is that the theme song from "Rocky" I hear????? Kman is 1 for 1!!!!
Missed the first one already .
I need more coffe NOW!! Drats...I had it right and I clicked the wrong line !!!!! Drats!! Drats!! Drats!!(insert your own expletive for Drats!!...LOL...)...Jeff
I have been waiting for this for quite a while.
So let me get this straight... we're TRYING to hit the leg bone?
I got it right...I figured shoot a bit lower in case he jumps the string since he probably will since he know's you're there...
Love these things Pat, thanks!
Scully, but that is not what he said, and I quote:
"assume this angle is exactly what you see. Do not attempt to compensate for the camera. Also, you are picking the HITS, not the targets. So you must assume that the dots are where you arrow is HITTING."
Even after I got that one wrong, I am still going to have to pick D out of the four options. Given the angle, you should double lung him and not chance hitting the bone. Yes, a 500 grain arrow will probably do its job even with C, but I am not going to take that shot (C)
Hey Pat, How the heck did you score a 3 on your own game? LOL
I think C is the perfect shot, it is above the leg bone and drops that deer quickly. D is pushing a spine shot, or at least the mythical "void" just below.
A and C are too low, you may miss the offside lung. B will probably only catch the back of the near lung and the liver. D would be the best option. sure you aren't shooting much KE but you shouldn't hit any bones with that shot. You should be just behind the scap, below the spine and above/behind the front leg bone.
My shot would be D, reguardless of what is "correct" here.
With the leg back like that, both C and D will have to go through bone before vitals IMO.
"A" will only catch one lung if any, and B will take out one lung and the liver.
None of these are "ideal" but I think Pat knew that to begin with. This whole senerio is a "no-go".
txhunter,
You are correct. I overlooked that part, but at least in my warped incorrect version I turned out right lol
You "bone" guys are way off.
You can see the deer's leg bone through his skin. Shot C is perfect and ABOVE the bone.
You hit that deer on the "C" spot and you'll watch him fall. The angle is not steep so you will take out both lungs and part of his heart.
See my expertly diagrammed layout...............
I agree, C is the shot. His heart might just fall out by itself when you're cleaning him 30 yards or so from there. (I would imagine on an urban hunt you can still gut him if you bury it?) Well above the bone with the exit just behind the off leg.
I don't particularly care for any of the others. One is close to a spine shot and another is a liver with maybe 1 lung at that angle, with another low and away for a ball. Although any of them are probably lethal eventually. OK, maybe one "void". LOL!
Hello fellow bowhunters: I missed that one.I would have taken B,D because like you said the spot is where the arrow penetrates. None the less it still would have been next to the potatoes and gravy.Looking forward to the next clue.
Herdmanager: I think you are optomistic in your drawing. Take a look at this site ( http://www.skookumarchers.com/Archery%20Library/WhitetailShotPlacement.htm ), and then extrapolate where it would be if the right leg is back like it is in this deer. C comes awfully close to the bone. Granted, it would probably pass above the bone, but I am not absolutely sure.
I think C is the best shot option But you better be on your game, a touch to hi or low and you could be in for a long day.
heardmanager,
Pass me some of what you're smokin'
I too thought "C" was too risky. But if you miss the bone it is deadly!
The question didn't say "shoot for" any of the spots. It said that EXACT spot is where your arrow WILL hit.
C is above the leg bone and a perfect "smoked em'" shot.
None of those are good shots. Wait till the front leg is forward, anything else is asking for a gut shot or a shoulder blade/leg bone shot.
Joshua
I agree with 'C' as the shot to go for, but as far as the order of the rest, it's debatable. It's above the humerus and will smack the heart or just above it. If he steps forward and wheels to his left on the shot like it looks he might, it's a knockdown. 'A' is a liver shot and may catch the paunch on the exit. 'B' is a liver +/- right lung and definitely paunch on the far side. 'D' is catching the thick part of the scapula but will be a high lung right and center lung left if it penetrates. Again, if he steps forward, this shot hits dead center of the scapula and you've got a wounded deer that you may or may not recover. The best shot is 'C' and the only choice with that shot as the best was answer 'B.'
will a 60# bow with a 500 grain arrow penetrate the scapula? I believe it would. I made a follow up shot this year on a 250# buck with my 55# recurve, blew right through the scap and buried in the sternum(he was on his side) at 17yds. I've never had a scap stop a 70-80# compound before. just wondering.
If "D" even hit the scap, it would just clip the edge of it. You should have no problem getting 2 lungs.
"C" is a very good shot, you will drop the deer fast BUT will not let you get 2 lungs. You may however clip the heart.
Cha Ching. Got a total of 9 now. He almost tripped me up with the "not", but I was wise to his devious ways! Probably the only one I will get right on this thing!
don't quite agree on the bd thing. Entering the rear of the near lung with a quartering towards shot will get a gut exit and be hard to follow. I missed the word "not" in the second question. Love these things! Wish we had one a month.
well i got the 1st one right then didn't get the wording correct and guessed wrong on the 2nd one. darn it!!! trickiy tricky!!!!
Hey Pat, Asking negative questions "what can you NOT tell.." is widely known as a very poor method of testing. It's not tricky. It's overtly deceptive and does NOT in any way test one's knowledge (look at any book or website related to writing test questions). You should be ashamed of yourself. homebru
the arrow entery point was a dead give away on question #2.. Question 1 took some thinking.. I based my pick on the impact area in relation to the back leg and where I think the arrow would exit
The deer did "not" fall over in the video or description.
First of all, I shoulder bladed a 130 this year, he got away, but I found His sheds in a food plot in Feb. I will not shoot forward on a deer again there fore the two foreward shots on the deer are out of the question for me. I only got about three inches of penetration and I am still sick. Second of all, I did not see the deer die, in the video therefore I cannot tell if the shot was fatal. Then again I am probably just bitter for scoring so low. Thanks for the diversion though.
"C" would have nailed him, not even close to the bone. I'd take that shot in a heart beat and have done so on more than 1 occasion with a deer waiting at the end of the blood trail.....No coffee needed for #2...LOL...so far so good...Jeff
I think D is the best. at that angle ...his leg is back too jmo
I disagree with zero points for not telling if that hit was fatal. You can't see the dear die. There is a great chance the hit was fatal, but you can't be sure of it.
love these blood trail programs, but B is gut shot at best
not fair!! not fair!! not fair!!!! I wouldn't say that that hit was a pure gut hit
18 so far Oh yea ya gotta read it !
Shot looked a little back, and a little low. I don't see how you know it's fatal. Oh well...
How can you tell that the arrow passed through? Sure - it went fletching deep -but I missed the part where it went plumb thru.
Shoulda knows - did look like he got some liver...
Pass thru or shoot thru...as long as it pokes a hole in the other side...I dont care...LOL....Jeff
Pat: What you can't also tell from the shot is that is fatal. I got it wrong but how many times do we think we have a killing shot. You can not tell that it is fatal unitl the deer is dead and that was not on the video.
Please explain you reasoning here. Thanks
It appears that the arrow hit the deer at an angle that would make it coming from somewhere to the left of the camera. That certainly could change one's perception of the shot "impact site" choices.
Joshua
You guys have to start READING the questions....................................
not to mention if you watch the video and stop it you can see the arrow in the ground. That arrow went through midship its a dead deer...they are not going to have a deer that lives on BT hello LOL.
OK, we "know" it is a fatal shot from clue 2, we also know there are some coyote around. What are we hunting for, bones?
well im 2 for 3.that question 2 was a good one.i see your reasoning
Guys, I don't know what's going on! I usually suck at these. I guess all the great school'n i'm picking up here on Bowsite is starting to pay off. Guess i better not toot my own horn. Usually doesn't turn out well! ;)
wait time is always up for discusson...
3rd one got 3 points. the coyote thing kind of stuck with me. going to soon could kick him up. so--- ok. i am learning.
No way do I wait THAT long before going after that deer, but it's not my game so I get my first "0"...
I'm just wondering, since I waited but not long enough apparently, what the odds are of someone else bumping this deer are? After all, you're doing a cull hunt in an urban area. There have to be other folks around. Or is the area totally closed off? And, if it's a cull hunt, why do you shoot a buck anyway?
I love the hunting shows that talk about pigs being a problem...and they shoot the boar, not the sow that's carrying 12 piglets. It ain't about management...is it?
"wait 6 more hours" after a hit like that!? Come ON! I want to get that one butchered and get back on-stand and nail a coyote on the gutpile!
yea I agree....A blood soaked arrow...hair and in a yote area...I am still hunting my way to that deer in an hour....
I thought 4 hours was plenty based on that hit. Definitely got liver, probably near lung. That deer isn't going to be alive in an hour, much less 4.
6 hours seems excessive.
I think Pats weeding out the multiple computer cheaters. Anyone who gets them all right gets kicked out. ;)
Come on people, it's 8am, the dogs are asleep! Overnight is a different story. Go grab yourself a breakfast burrito at the gas station, take care of business, then come back in 6hrs and find him. No reason to hurry. Another point about the shot - it's fatal. I agree that a deer ain't for sure dead until you find him, but a deer shot through the guts with a broadhead at the very least is going to die of septic shock in 6-24 hours. Where he is when that happens is up to you, next hillside or next county.
does the multiple computer technique work while up in the tree?
The shot looked sketchy the deer knew it was coming, it wasnt a great angle... He's on high alert. Go take a nap in your truck grab a coffee and come back. Besides its a urban hunt. You want to be chasing a wounded deer through how many city parks?
This is the first time I have ever led the pack. Christmas is done.
very tricky ... I like Christmas!
"The following clues will be much more difficult."
GREAT!!! Maybe I better quit now.
I only said 6 hour because I know Pat allways waits longer than I would
Very smart Kickstand...I went with what I would've done and it cost me...I would've taken up the trail after an hour...A lot of these things are subjective, but it is Pat's game so you need to think like Pat...Good call...
If this were my trail, I would have waited six hours. I only said one hour, because a couple of bloodtrails ago, I got the answer wrong because there were coyotes in the area.
AAAHHHHHH!!!!!!! These things are GREAT!!!!!!!
NOOOOO!!!!......I was batting 1000 and went to put in D on #4 and my mouse wheel scrolled up when I hit submit.....NOOOOOO!!!!!!!
I cry NO FAIR:)
There was a lot of blood at 40 yards and none from 0-39 yards. Not a drop.
That deer must have stood there for a week to pool up that much blood....especially with no trail for the first 40 yards.
I am also surprised that the deer stopped at 40 yards for that long considering how spooked he was on the shot.
Can you guys help a brother out here!!!!
This one like the last one is far too many tricks and games for me. I'll spend my time elsewhere.
LBB
D2...welcome to my world :0) .....Jeff
Pat, a very Merry Christmas to you too!
LOL!
Pat, you mean to tell me that you checked all the trails out to 200 yards and the best answer is the deer stopped running? Ok, I see that since there is a nice pool of blood where he stopped However, if that deer is not laying dead right in front of you then something must have plugged the holes. No more blood for 200 yards?? Just when I thought I was out.... they drag me back in....
LOL
Pat, please explain... bloody arrow, good blood on the ground, no fecal matter on the arrow or in the blood, why wait more than 1 hour if you don't have too? You know the deer is dead. Oh that's right you reviewed the hit on film, I forgot that option you have. Is that part of a real blood trail? step 1... review video.
just good clean fun
You know I have never lost a lethally shot critter in the real world but I really suck at these Interactive Bloodtrails.
I’m pulling my hair out over here.
I need to slow down and READ and then think like Pat. Question 1 - I had the right answer until I looked at all the answers and then my abdc's got mixed up. Question 2 - RTFQ!!!!!! ya dummy!!!! Question 3 - 1 hour and I would be going, oh, well. Question 4 - RTFQ and then remembered question 1. whoopee!!! Finally got a 9!!!
I don't get how to do it. I didn't get my choice offered as I saw it.
An animal doesnt "magically" stop bleeding when its running, They are just getting too old to find blood when the animal is moving. Heart rate increases... So when he is running there should be more blood but spread out over a larger area in a finer mist if "Nothing" plugged or clotted.
Sure glad this isnt the "real world", or I wouldnt be able to eat venison every night.
Seeing the location of the hit, with no intestinal matter or dark blood on the arrow (dark blood on the leaves 40 yards out were caused by six hour of drying), plus 'yotes having been seen in the area, I would have taken a calculated yet justifiable risk and left immediately. Needless to say, I got “zip, zilch, nada” for number 3.
On clue 5, both 1 and 7 are equally possible in my mind. I picked 7 only because a deer that is no longer bleeding much is more likely to leave sign in heavy cover.
Frankly, I can't think of any compelling reason (given the clues) to pick 1 over 7. Both are very possible. Did I miss something?
ArrowShooter,
This clue isn't so much what is 'likely', it is about what actually 'happened'. I thought the first 4 clues were easy, but when I read #5 I was sure that I was going to get knocked out. To make mattters worse, I studied the diagram and reread earlier clues for about 10 minutes before making my choice and then when I was going to answer, my choice wasn't an option! At this point, I went with the one that was nearest my choice and kept my fingers crossed--it was right!
#5 is just a total wild @$# guess...I went with the most obvious and what do you know :}
Arrowshooter I am with you I went for the heavy cover . Steve
Question #5...Paunch hit deer almost always go to water...#1...that was my reasoning anyway.
From Question 4 "The three of you check every trail within 200 yards of this spot. Not a single drop is found"
Then in question 5 it appers to me that #1 is within 200 yds.
I thought that was too obvious. DAMIT
Heavy Cover and water....simple.... :0) ....Jeff
Pat you suck.
Do I get to be on the board if I score 0 total points in the end? :-)
I thought like Jimbob, #1 was too close (within 200 yrds) and #2 wasn't an option. I decided he stayed along the creek, so I picked #4.
yea I agree spot 1 is within 200 yards thats a bogus one, replay pat we need a replay review.
I used the same logic #1 didn't appear to be within 200 yards picked thicket near water which would be the first place I looked.
Bad clues given in question 4.
According to the legend, Spot 1 is exactly 200 yards from the last blood spot. That's a big time clue. You have to figure Pat would have stated "no blood within 300 yards" if it was too much more than the 200 yard point. There's a reason the distance was on the legend...
I have never gone 5 straight questions with correct answers before. Probably just jinxed myself, but I think I'm learning how to think like a Pat. 8*)
HuntinHabit,
That's the same thing I did. From clue #4, I knew the next spot of blood would be right at 200 yards or just a bit beyond 200 yards and I figured it would be close to water. It looked like #1 was right at 200 yards, so I was going to answer #2 to make sure I was not within 200. Since #2 wasn't an option when I went to answer, I went with #1. After doing these bloodtrails for so long, I seem to be picking up on how Pat's mind works, but I'm sure he will get me on one of the remaining clues. :)
So much for paying attention to detail. I just did the bloodtrail today at work,, I missed the one where he stopped 40 yards away.. DAMMIT!!
:-)
Pat, this is good stuff. LOL Jay
and I thought 22 was my lucky number...
Yeah baby, that's 6 for 6. Could I actually get through an entire Challenge with a perfect score? Doubtful, I'll probably get confused on the last question just like The World's Greatest Tracker. LOL!!
I'm out. My first instinct was right, but I didn't think he would have two in a row where the obvious answer was actually correct so I decided to go with a different answer. Dang, just when I thought I was figuring out how Pat thinks.
I figured that with the hit being potentially a bit too far back the deer would head for water.
I figured that the blood drop wouldn't have been found while he was in a wet marshy area, but after he exerted himself hopping the creek.
If it was my tracking job, I would be looking in Area A and Area B for this deer. I would predict him to head for water and bed up not far from it in the thickest stuff he could find.
search all areas- of course search all areas but what area are you going to search first? I figure it was good to follow the water first and search towards area D. Search all areas come on! man I'm gettin killed on this one.
Evidentally you need to think like Pat, Not nessaserially like yourself....I am starting to figure him out after starting out slow....i have aced the last three clues!.....
I'm thinking either A or B...but with my luck he hit that big trail along the creek and went north to C/D..... Water and heavy cover....water and heavy cover?????...I did say check all didnt I ??..Jeff
I really need to read the questions and the answers. I could have sworn the question asked "where do you check first".
In fact, I never even stopped to read the answers once I decided D should be first. I didn't even see that 'All areas' was an option. Pretty observant, huh?
That last question was just cruel.
I got it right but it was painful. I spent 15 minutes staring at the blood and trying to align myself with the map, before even reading the answers. I was relieved to see D because I didn't have a clue. Nice one Pat!
All I know is if Pat was using a Slick trick, these blood trail challenges wouldnt be nearly as much fun
Deerman1,
I agree, a head with a bigger diameter would have done some more damage, a pass through in this case only did one thing initially.. allowed the hunter to find his arrow. No doubt the deer is dead, but tough finding where he went. I think we see a lot of lost deer on BOWSITE and IMHO the reason they don't get them is a marginal shot with a low profile and small cutting diameter broadhead. This allows a mortally wounded deer to get farther away and further from being found.
Still love these bloodtrails, regardless of my rantings.
Pat, The video clip in #2 is pretty clear to me. I can tell its not a COMPLETE gut shot. In clue #3 Your arrow seems to confirm it and I think it will be revealed that the deer did too. What I can't see from the video is the arrow in the dirt behind the deer therefore, I can not tell if it was a complete passthrough. You owe me some points.
Sorry davy, if you listen to the video, you can hear the arrow hitting the ground. I say pat takes away 9 points for quibbling.
Davy,
Then you must think there is a chance the deer will survive?
I think not.
The ? is what area not areas! on ? number six.
If you see the deer in Clue 7 you are lying to yourself and us.
Boy, I better take that buck outta the freezer and put him back in the woods. I still can't see the tail in the photo. Maybe in real life, but not in the photograph.
I agree with ArrowShooter, and Horn Donkey, I think I'll need to see another pic proving to me that the buck was in that picture. I've blown it up until it's too distorted to see, and still don't see him.
Took a guess and got it wrong. Even with the description of the location, I can't see it. When this blood trail is over someone has to circle it to show us where it is in the photo.
I used to like Pat...
grrrr.. *&%!#!!
That's just not right. I knew I wouldn't make it all the way though. I see it now, but no way would you know that it's a deer from this a picture, and you have to blow it up to even see it...
Nobody should feel bad I was there and still have screwed this up badly.
See What ????????????????????????????????? *^$$%^**!! Dagnabitt!! :0) ...Jeff
You mean Helen Keller smelled the deer.......LOL
I messed this trailing all up......I should know not to try and out think Pat :)
Oh, by the way I dont see any heavy cover or water!!??...ALL AREA's 'eh.....Jeff
This was my first BT Challenge......scored 48, how is that?????? Felt like I was taking a reading comprehension test though. And, assuming I waited to get out of the tree for a while......4 hours was probably worth more than 3 points......arrrrghghh! Also........all areas ???????? Duh, ya search til ya find it.......but I am going to start somewhere.
Always Looking- you're hooked now.
There are 22 other BTs in the Interactive Section going back to April 99. Most are helpful with good learning points-- this one was a mess.
http://www.bowsite.com/TEMPLATES/articles.cfm#7
Greg
This is Pats way of messing with us during the off seasons..
And I quote:
Get the Excedrin bottle ready - this one will make your head hurt.
Pay attention to wording and look for tricks. First one with a perfect score gets to post his favorite trophy photo on the bloodtrail!
Where? I still can't see it, even with the clues. Gonna need some flagging tape for this one. Or one of those CSI photoshops.
I think I heard sinister laughter in the background, turn up your sound, the picture has a sound track.
Oh well, no matter. I lost it on #5 anyway.
allwayslookin, there's one more left isn't there? Jeez, maybe I got that wrong too.
funn stuff Pat ... Uhh I seen no stinkin deer rigged I tell ya! LOL
I cry foul on question 6 as well. It specifically asked for "what area", not "what area/areas", thereby eliminating the correct answer as Pat saw it.
I mean you have to start looking first somewhere....
So you get dinged if you misread the question (ie. the "not") and you get dinged if you read the question......
How does the fact that the deer was alarmed relate to the lack of blood on the trail? The lack of blood had to do with the shot placement, not whether the deer was alarmed. I've shot alarmed deer which had plenty of blood on the trail....
Arghh!! 30 Points- 39 IF I'd read # 2 better.
G
Pat
I think this was your best!!, I was doing good until question 6 and 7 they skunked me I still can't see that deer!!! Keep them coming ......
WOW, my wife is gonna kill me. This site ROCKS, I am an AT junkie, but I am addicted to this site. I got re bitten by the traditional bug and was told to check out this site. All this and I did not get thrashed over my first post!!!!! Thanks, PS......should I do this with sound.....I always mute my computer.
I see a deer in #7, even antlers. Look at a bedded buck in D off the left side of the tree with the shaggy bark. I bet it was the dead deer's twin brother laying low to see what's wrong with the other buck. AHHHH, I also am seeing little devils, they're chasing me AHHH.
This is the first Bloodtrail Challenge I've done. You were right about the headache! Great job, I enjoyed it. Glad you found him, goes to show don't give up!
Post the picture where that deer is laying. I too saw antlers poking out above the rock in picture D. My eyes aren't that old.
Clue 7 all I see is rack behind the rock in D
Pat,
How long did it take you guys to find the deer from when you first started tracking? Congrats on the buck.
Great challange! Congratulations on finding the buck. How long did it take?
Whew!!!!! I'm glad this is over. The heck with excedrine...I went to the oxycontin and vicodin :0) ....What was the time frame on the recovery?? .....Jeff
Some clues I blew like check all areas lol.I just winged it on the spot the deer one as I didn't see it but figured that's where it would end up. Pat can you point on the map where the buck finally ended up?
Guts plugging the hole wasnt correct earlier but it is now? HOLY indiscrepancies.
I thought they were designed to keep me from working too hard....wait, I figured out how to do that a long time ago. Pure entertainment and trying to work on my mind reading skills, Pat's mind is a tough one. Thanks for the interaction, and lets get a new one rolling soon!
I scored a 54, and all my answers were (to me) correct. And hey! Pat, you are right, I've always, found the deer on every one of these, even if I missed every question. I get to the end, and there's the dang deer!
hey can anyone show me where that deer is? i still cant find it
I never did see it either, I even cheated and enlarged the pic and still couldn't see it. Great game though. I normally do pretty well. This one kicked my tail!!!!!! Ready for the next one!!!!!
Eeny-meny-miny-mo. & I got it right.:0
UHHHHH..Where's the deer?????????????
Good Game, Fun Times
Pat lets do another one SOON !!
RK
LMAO... I knew all the right answers and answered somw wrong anyway. based I what I would have done had it been me !!! I knew spot 1 had to be the blood spot but picked another sopt based on were I though the deer would go.. Boy did I blow that one.
I can't see the deer either.
Pat, I think I know what broadhead you used on this hunt, are you re-thinking this broadhead or is this just a fluke liver hit?????????
hey pat can you post a pic with a circle around the part of the deer that you can see? thats driving me nuts.
Great interactive blood trail. Looking at the map in clue 6 I am curious about which way the buck was actually found? Was it across the brook and into the thicket? Or somewhere else? Also from the last blood did the deer go up hill? I guess I would expect the deer to head for the thick stuff and would have focused my search there first.
That's the tail? I thought the voices were lying when they said that spot was the tail.
By the way, how does alarming a deer make it bleed less? I suppose tension in the body could act to put pressure on the wound, but as a point of fact, the more panicked they are, the higher their heart rate and blood pressure go. In my experience, a deer that runs in a blind panic usually bleeds like a stuck hog. I've shot deer that don't realize their hit. They run a short distance, stop in confusion, and then walk away. They don't seem to bleed nearly as hard, even when hit just as well.
Pat, did YOU spot that deer from there? I'm impressed if ya did :-)
Those antlers are still poking up behind the rock. You should have recovered that buck too :)
"Pat, I think I know what broadhead you used on this hunt, are you re-thinking this broadhead or is this just a fluke liver hit?????????"
Pat clearly stated what BH was used. I agree, BH had nothing to do with the bloodtrail. It was shot location and path of the arrow, vitals hit that made tracking diffelcult.
"In my experience, a deer that runs in a blind panic usually bleeds like a stuck hog. I've shot deer that don't realize their hit. They run a short distance, stop in confusion, and then walk away. They don't seem to bleed nearly as hard, even when hit just as well."
Its all about shot location, I have to disagree fully with your statement.
If you read what I said, I stated that I didn't agree that panicking the deer made him bleed less. In the last question, Pat said that the deer was alarmed and that made him bleed less. My experience would indicate that it would probably make him bleed more.
And yes, shot location counts for a lot. So does broadhead sharpness and number of blades. The wound here was a marginal hit wihch was the primary cause of the poor trail.
Looking at some of these scores it seems like some people are doing the challenge AFTER looking at the discussions!!! 8-)
