DeerBuilder.com
I find this sad/disturbing. Do you?
Whitetail Deer
Contributors to this thread:
Jack Harris 08-Oct-11
Bou'bound 08-Oct-11
Bou'bound 08-Oct-11
Jack Harris 08-Oct-11
grunnnnnnnt 08-Oct-11
razorhunter 08-Oct-11
JJJ 08-Oct-11
Elkhuntr 08-Oct-11
Skullwerx 08-Oct-11
grunnnnnnnt 08-Oct-11
menmypse 08-Oct-11
Archerdan 08-Oct-11
Jack Harris 08-Oct-11
ElkBowhunter 08-Oct-11
Hammer0419 08-Oct-11
ipaggie 08-Oct-11
Bill_Weber_RRT 08-Oct-11
soldierbowman2 08-Oct-11
Archerdan 08-Oct-11
Grounblind 09-Oct-11
turkeyhunter60 09-Oct-11
dg72A 09-Oct-11
soldierbowman2 09-Oct-11
Bou'bound 09-Oct-11
PI non-typical 09-Oct-11
Medicinemann 09-Oct-11
bigswivle 09-Oct-11
rchunter 09-Oct-11
Jack Harris 09-Oct-11
Knife2sharp-Mobile 09-Oct-11
Acu-Archer 09-Oct-11
heartshot 09-Oct-11
Candor 09-Oct-11
RANGER765 09-Oct-11
Chronic 09-Oct-11
Thornton 09-Oct-11
Knife2sharp-Mobile 09-Oct-11
TXHunter 10-Oct-11
badlander 10-Oct-11
Foodplot 10-Oct-11
TXHunter 10-Oct-11
Bake 10-Oct-11
Foodplot 10-Oct-11
Blakes 10-Oct-11
Duke 10-Oct-11
Foodplot 10-Oct-11
r-man 10-Oct-11
bowmadnessxs 10-Oct-11
bow assassin 10-Oct-11
The Rooster 11-Oct-11
trkytrack 11-Oct-11
trkytrack 11-Oct-11
BCHUNTER 11-Oct-11
David Alford 11-Oct-11
David Alford 11-Oct-11
guidermd 11-Oct-11
RANGER765 11-Oct-11
Tigereye 11-Oct-11
Foodplot 11-Oct-11
roger 11-Oct-11
Elkhunter - Home 11-Oct-11
Jack Harris 11-Oct-11
rchunter 11-Oct-11
Grounblind 11-Oct-11
Tigereye 12-Oct-11
Bake 12-Oct-11
David Alford 12-Oct-11
roger 12-Oct-11
T-bone 12-Oct-11
DaveN 12-Oct-11
Canuck 12-Oct-11
Kevin Dill 12-Oct-11
DC 12-Oct-11
mark21tn 12-Oct-11
David Alford 14-Oct-11
RANGER765 14-Oct-11
Foodplot 14-Oct-11
JRW 14-Oct-11
Foodplot 14-Oct-11
Jack Harris 14-Oct-11
roger 14-Oct-11
Desperado 14-Oct-11
RK 14-Oct-11
Str8Shooter 14-Oct-11
RK 14-Oct-11
Jack Harris 14-Oct-11
Larry Altizer 14-Oct-11
RK 14-Oct-11
RK 14-Oct-11
Str8Shooter 14-Oct-11
Jack Harris 15-Oct-11
Archerdan 15-Oct-11
Desperado 15-Oct-11
Ben Farmer 15-Oct-11
roger 15-Oct-11
RK 15-Oct-11
David Alford 15-Oct-11
Jack Harris 16-Oct-11
yrovikle 16-Oct-11
David Alford 16-Oct-11
Archerdan 16-Oct-11
yrovikle 16-Oct-11
David Alford 16-Oct-11
Canuck 16-Oct-11
Desperado 17-Oct-11
David Alford 17-Oct-11
Foodplot 17-Oct-11
stealthycat 17-Oct-11
Blakes 17-Oct-11
Recurve Addict 17-Oct-11
Foodplot 17-Oct-11
Blakes 17-Oct-11
Foodplot 17-Oct-11
Jason Scott 17-Oct-11
roger 17-Oct-11
Blakes 17-Oct-11
RANGER765 17-Oct-11
roger 17-Oct-11
Desperado 17-Oct-11
Foodplot 17-Oct-11
RANGER765 17-Oct-11
roger 17-Oct-11
Blakes 17-Oct-11
Blakes 17-Oct-11
Foodplot 17-Oct-11
Foodplot 17-Oct-11
RANGER765 17-Oct-11
Foodplot 17-Oct-11
woodswise 17-Oct-11
ElkBowhunter 17-Oct-11
Desperado 17-Oct-11
ElkBowhunter 17-Oct-11
antarcher 17-Oct-11
RANGER765 17-Oct-11
Birddog 17-Oct-11
Grounblind 18-Oct-11
Foodplot 18-Oct-11
Foodplot 18-Oct-11
roger 18-Oct-11
MrSimon 18-Oct-11
Jack Harris 18-Oct-11
MrSimon 18-Oct-11
RANGER765 18-Oct-11
Foodplot 19-Oct-11
RK 19-Oct-11
roger 19-Oct-11
Desperado 19-Oct-11
Jack Harris 19-Oct-11
RANGER765 19-Oct-11
roger 19-Oct-11
RANGER765 19-Oct-11
Jack Harris 19-Oct-11
Chronic 19-Oct-11
roger 19-Oct-11
TDP84 20-Oct-11
TDP84 20-Oct-11
RK 20-Oct-11
Desperado 20-Oct-11
RK 20-Oct-11
Desperado 21-Oct-11
RK 21-Oct-11
TDP84 21-Oct-11
Desperado 21-Oct-11
Kevin Dill 21-Oct-11
TDP84 21-Oct-11
RK 21-Oct-11
longboman 21-Oct-11
RK 21-Oct-11
Jack Harris 22-Oct-11
From: Jack Harris
08-Oct-11

Jack Harris's embedded Photo
Jack Harris's embedded Photo
Had such a lousy day of hunting today (nothing in morning, a 1 horn spike feeding around me tonight), so I came in, cracked a cold one and flipped through the outdoor channels. A show I never saw before caugh my eye - "Wild River Whitetails". Turned out it was basically an "infomercial" for a high fence/deer farming operation in Wisconsin. I saw footage of this buck (attaching photo). I find it disgusting. I really don't think a wild whitetail would survive carrying this much baggage on his head.

At what point does "big" become "too big"? I don't know about the rest of you, but give me a wild, clean symetical 125" 8ptr any day over something like this..

If this is what the deer mad scientist are proud to grow - I sort of do wish it were illegal. However I will not infringe upon someone's right to earn a living.

I've seen several posts on bowsite from deer farmers and listen to them promote all the "good" they do..

I see this picture, and it really turns my stomach..

From: Bou'bound
08-Oct-11
man that is a monster. that right side G-39 must be at least 17"

From: Bou'bound
08-Oct-11

Bou'bound's Link
Also here is the website.

the only thing wild about that place is the rivers ........it sure is not the deer

heck, not only do you pay by the inch, but they are charging a $2,500 premium for white or piebald color phase. that is a rip! If I am spending 15K for a 200" deer i should be able to pick a pretty colored one for no extra charge.

next year when they breed a purple phase buck the darn thing will probably be $5,000 extra. this has gone too far!

From: Jack Harris
08-Oct-11
17" g39... too funny bou'bound. Is there one bow hunter that looks at that picture and says "man i would give anything to shoot that - fence or no fence??? I find it repulsive.

From: grunnnnnnnt
08-Oct-11
some rich green horn will pay to kill it

From: razorhunter
08-Oct-11
no different than breeding cattle for a particular trait.....just can't see calling it "hunting".....designer deer,I guess soon you'll be able to "order" a particular color pattern and rack from a catalog.....hmmmm,I'll take the piebald with a hint of golden color on the ears and a crazy looking rack like the one on page 32,lol

From: JJJ
08-Oct-11
I'm waiting for them to come out with one in blue, to match my eyes. It is disgusting.

From: Elkhuntr
08-Oct-11
might be transgender too?

LOL

From: Skullwerx
08-Oct-11
Does he even have ears?

From: grunnnnnnnt
08-Oct-11
looks like a pic from buckbrushadventures.com

From: menmypse
08-Oct-11
I don't see what people get out of shooting at these places yes I said shooting because it sure isn't hunting. I would much rather shoot a small buck on public lands than pay to hunt on a place like that,I thought hunting was about the challenge not just the end result.

From: Archerdan
08-Oct-11
That's one of those fenced in deer......I can see the fence behind the deer

From: Jack Harris
08-Oct-11
Pretty sure I said it was a high fence operation/deer farm.. Yes - the fence is there in all it's glory. That's my point - keep growing the frankenstein buck, sell his genes to others - maybe the genes get out into the wild... Is this what we want?

NO THANK YOU

From: ElkBowhunter
08-Oct-11
pretty sure this was Hitlers plan also....to raise a blue eyed super breed of deer. Disgusting, should be illegal to mess with nature like that. Its like some professional baseball home run hitters I know. Sad.

From: Hammer0419
08-Oct-11
That is just one HUGE MESS!!

From: ipaggie
08-Oct-11
Someone should go cut the fences and set them free! Poor thing has to get neck cramps!

08-Oct-11
Disgusting...

08-Oct-11
Thats it!! Its gone too far,, I am going to cancel my upcoming hunt with them! Just after next years season is over . ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I hope no one gets him before I get there.

From: Archerdan
08-Oct-11
I'd confirm it's high fence by his droopy ears.......but he sure don't have any.

From: Grounblind
09-Oct-11
Nothing more than livestock. Sad really that people find this sort of thing acceptable. It is bad enough we have shooters over bait. I wonder if this is TED approved?

09-Oct-11
I hate it, glad it's Illegal here in Oregon.....

From: dg72A
09-Oct-11
I don`t think much of it as well.... there`s enough bone on his head for 4 or 5 nice bucks.

09-Oct-11
Is it antler,,,,,,,,, Or is it that that deer has evolved and is wearing a ghilla camouflage head piece?? Admit it. If you were in hardwoods and only seen the deers head you likely wouldn't reconise it.

From: Bou'bound
09-Oct-11
i certainly would never reconise it. i would not even be able to identify the dern thing

09-Oct-11
No amount of money could entice me to run an operation like this. I find this sad, disturbing, and pathetic.

From: Medicinemann
09-Oct-11
How in blazes would he ever rub off all of the velvet?

From: bigswivle
09-Oct-11
The best show on tv is "monster trophy bucks" or something like that. They shoot high fence deer then the guy pitches his prostate health pills.

From: rchunter
09-Oct-11
Playing devils advocate here.

Didnt we turn the wolf into a chihuaua and the mighty shitzsu.

The horse into the pygmy horse?

When natural selection is out of the equation, anything is possible.

Makes me wonder where man is headed lol.

When we do this to deer we are domesticating them making them un wild. To each his own I guess.

If one did get lose into the wild I doubt it would live to pass on its genes.

From: Jack Harris
09-Oct-11
I am concerned about where this is heading and what whitetail hunting will be like in 50 years (or less).

The need for more bone will overtake the desire to just hunt in the wild?

So in a fence, man can grow a 500+ inch whitetail deer, This particular buck is clearly the "beast" of the deer farming industry. But why stop there? Surely we can get to 1,000 inches if we keep refining the genetic engineering.

Nothing like taking "animal husbandry" to the limit - and beyond.

09-Oct-11
What is there to get upset at? The fact that we live in a free market society allowing people with the means to raise and breed deer, or that someone would exploit their knowledge in cross breeding and gene selection to grow a 500" buck. Am I suppose to be upset that someone could actually afford to pay for such a mutant? I'm more upset with the way some states manage their wild herds then to care what is done on someones private enclosed ranch.

From: Acu-Archer
09-Oct-11
Most likely what's happening here is that the deer farm owners are selecting animals that have a propensity to produce dense, heavy antlers, because they're producing velvet antler for export to Asian countries.

Deer antler in velvet, known as Velvet Deer Antler, is a very highly esteemed medicinal substance in traditional Asian medicine. It's worth big, big bucks.. no pun intended. They harvest the antlers without having to kill the animals--they tranquilize them & cut off the antlers with an electrocautery knife. The antler isn't enervated, so it doesn't hurt the deer, and then it can grow back the next season.

The deer hunt is likely a sideline compared to the main event, the deer velvet operation.

So what they do to maximize velvet production is select the bucks that make the biggest, heaviest, most heavily branched antlers, and breed those, year after year. The animal you see in the pic above is likely the result of several--or many--generations of selection for big, heavy, frequently branching antlers. They want racks with lots of tines, because the tips of the antlers are worth the most money, because it's got the most active ingredient, a substance called pantocrine, which is related to Insulin-like growth factor. The stuff is a phenomenal energy booster, not like caffeine, but more on a long-term basis.

The selection process to get bucks like the above IS the process, as a previous commenter mentioned, that we used when ancient humans selectively bred wolves into dogs. There's a great documentary on a Russian biologist who worked on a Fox farm, where they were farming foxes for their fur. They wanted the easiest ones to work with, so they selected for docileness, friendliness, good temper, and curiosity. Today, you can get domesticated foxes that act like dogs, and apparently they make great pets.

Back to deer--I agree with RCHunter, I don't think these deer would survive for long in the wild, but if they did, their big antler genes would get diluted within a few generations. Who knows how it would affect the gene pool overall? It's hard to say. But it can happen, and probably already has happened.

Bottom line is, even if every hunter quit going to these operations for canned hunts, these operations will still thrive because they have a huge market in Asia for their antler products. FYI, they're doing this with elk too, elk velvet antler has the same properties and may be even more potent in terms of active ingredients. I don't think they're selectively breeding the elk too much, though, they're a lot harder to work with.

From: heartshot
09-Oct-11
knife x2

From: Candor
09-Oct-11
It's no more hunting than shooting a cow. Does it bother me that someone wants to line breed or breed for certain characteristics in a fence? No.... Not if it's not my land and not introducing a destructive element into a wild herd.

Am I offended that some knot-head pays a ludicrous amount of money to shoot it? yes...but only because it is pawned off under the word "hunt"

Is it hunting? (that's not a serious question).

Frankly I don't think it should be illegal. It is certainly sad and depressing.

It absolutely repulses me that there is a market for it. But I cannot think of the grounds for it to be illegal. Certainly I think it should be regulated and "permitted" with certain restriction. But I can't think of how you would do that either. It's just a slippery slope that will work itself out over time.

From: RANGER765
09-Oct-11
Velvet selling is in the red deer and elk, not the whitetail deer, but it is a very big business overseas. The buck in the pic shed his velvet on his own. These kinds of deer are used to breed with to get inches at an early age to sell the deer earlier. As for regulating, what do ya mean, we are regulated big time on what we can do and not. As for the big deer, just because this deer has that kind of rack, you wouldnt beleive how typical his sons are, pretty amzing I seen a yearling son of his that is a clean 5x5. It all goes back to what the doe herd is. Elk are alot easier to work with than deer because they are not a flighty animal. But the elk are raised more for the meat than the preserves, but there are guys with 600 inch elk. Elk meat around me sells for 8 bucks a pound, and a 4yr old 400 inch bull sells for 1500 bucks to the preserves, so wheres the money.

From: Chronic
09-Oct-11
sooo wheres his main beams?

From: Thornton
09-Oct-11
We have guys like you to thank for the bad rep hunters get because a few people with more money than brains and less skills than a monkey are willing to pay for a canned hunt. We also have you to thank for the occasional disease that escapes your livestock, I mean deer pens that affects the real herd of wild whitetails and other noble big game. I wouldn't take one of your hunts if you gave it to me. Now that I'm done talking to your kind, I am going to go plan a hunt for a real whitetail on my farm with fences that are only 5 strands and 4 feet high.

09-Oct-11
Good point Chronic, that very well could be an unscorable rack since there is no definate typical frame to start with. I guess that's what upsets me most.

From: TXHunter
10-Oct-11
Yes it is a joke. The reasons it should be illegal are at least threefold:

1)It is justified as a "property rights" issue but that is bogus because high fencing land directly affects all the neighbors (who also have property rights) by either eradicating all native animals inside the fence or at the very least preventing them from roaming as they choose. This denies access to animals which belong to the states and the public at large. One of the reasons this country was founded was because the King owned all the game-the high fences take us right back to that.

2)Disease propensity and propogation.

3)Simply protecting the integrity of hunting. What goes on at these game farms is not hunting yet it is passed off as such. This gives non-hunters who control our fate good reason to view hunters in an unsympathetic light and vote accordingly.

These fences have ruined much of my native state of Texas both from an ecological perspective and by growing a generation of young folks who don't know what actual hunting is anymore. It is really sad to see. I will stand with any hunter on any hunting issue but this is not about hunting- it is about shooting livestock and trying to call it hunting. Big difference.

From: badlander
10-Oct-11
As to these deer escaping and passing on their genes in the wild, I can sure believe it does/could happen.

I hunted one year in West Central Wisconsin on a private property that bordered another that held a "deer farm" that was known to import deer from out of state to introduce new genetics etc...

One of the guys I hunted with wound up shooting a yearling buck and I don't think the thing could have weighed 65-70# live weight. He loaded it on the rack of a Polaris Sportsman and it barely filled the rear rack. Probably normal for a TX yearling but not a Wisconsin deer, it was the size of a small fawn. Ive always assumed that was Southern genetics from the ranch making that tiny buck?

From: Foodplot
10-Oct-11
For people not to like HF there is a parade of people every day trying to get a look at the bucks in my hunting preserve.

From: TXHunter
10-Oct-11
The Freak Show at the fair is always the most popular attraction.

From: Bake
10-Oct-11
Knife. . . good post

This bothers me about as much as selective breeding of thoroughbred racehorses, quarter horses, hunting dogs, beef cattle, milk cattle, show dogs, draft horses, sled dogs, etc. etc. etc.

Which is to say. . . not at all

Bake

From: Foodplot
10-Oct-11
Good one Tx.To bad My deer are not freaks.Big typicals.

From: Blakes
10-Oct-11
I totally agree with TXHunter. At one point all deer were free ranging... Someone built a high fence around their property and all the wildlife within was stolen from the citizens. Yes, I believe in property rights... If a high fence is built great, but make sure all the wildlife is removed (and good luck with that!) Any deer that are bought and sold on the market today had relatives that were taken from the citizens a few generations past. All deer (or any wildlife for that matter) operations should be made illegal...

From: Duke
10-Oct-11
Candor- Agree with your post. Certainly do not agree with the genetic enhanced deer farms at many levels, but so long as it is done legally and not invasive to me or others I say go for it. This is why we live in America!

From: Foodplot
10-Oct-11

From: r-man
10-Oct-11
thats some serios junk , looks a little like Don King the boxing promotor.

From: bowmadnessxs
10-Oct-11
if that buck was on public land, i wouldnt think it is so disgusting

10-Oct-11
Its not like they need a high fence anyway that poor deer couldnt jump a low fence with all that weight on its head its just sad that deer has to deal with that all the time i would shoot it but only to put it out of misery

From: The Rooster
11-Oct-11

The Rooster's embedded Photo
The Rooster's embedded Photo
Does anybody else think that address is both ironic and funny????

From: trkytrack
11-Oct-11
Foodplot.....Hunting Preserve? You been living a "lie" all your life or is this just something new to you? Call it what it really is....a pet shooting gallery.

From: trkytrack
11-Oct-11
Foodplot.....a hunting preserve? Really? You really mean a shooting preserve, right?

From: BCHUNTER
11-Oct-11
Bill, disgusting is right.

From: David Alford
11-Oct-11
I sorta think it would be interesting if second generation WILD. But how about a 500 lb bucks with huge typical frame - as wild deer? I also wouldn't mind 300 lb. javelins. Keep in mind many of the worlds best freshwater fisheries are based on manipulated fish stocks - for example New Zealand.

From: David Alford
11-Oct-11
Meant to say 300 lb. javalinas...and, that brings up the example of big pigs guys are thrilled to hunt, they were bred for size at one point.

From: guidermd
11-Oct-11
i have always been a huge fan of penned in whitetail hunts, i think they are the greatest thing, this is why.... with these pens in operation, it keeps those hunters out of the real woods and off my clientele list. how much more do i have to pay to get a big one? if i only had a dollar for everytime i heard that question.

From: RANGER765
11-Oct-11
But how much more would it cost to shoot a deer under 130 inches? Herd management, if some guys just had a clue on what herd management is, but then some guys are happy with a hundred inch deer just like some want a 200 inch deer. There is not a deer anywhere that somebody would not shoot.

From: Tigereye
11-Oct-11

Tigereye's embedded Photo
Tigereye's embedded Photo
same thing as this. UGLY

From: Foodplot
11-Oct-11
No HUNTING PRESERVE!!!!!!

From: roger
11-Oct-11
All the horn porn on the boob tube and the obsessive behavior surrounding the score keeping of Whitetails is the impetus of all this type of garbage. Yeah, yeah, I know, you can't put him in the almighty book. But, it's the same mindset that has produced an entire industry around building super deer in and out of the wild.

Look at all the absolutely meaningless crap that manufacturers create with the intended goal of doing just one thing - MAKING HUNTING EASY......C'meere Deer, Bad Boy Buggies, Scentlok/Block, Acorn Rage, $600 compression fit archery duds, manufactured elevated shooting towers, trail cams, Ozonics, leasing, Rage, bow mounted range finders,.......it never ends. The ultimate perpetual cycle.

Deer farms are no different than any of the other stuff mentioned, just yet another means to an end, or so some think anyway, but that's good enough for them. Our current hunting culture created all this. Whether or not we realize it, we created the demand for it.

Hunting became less about what it should be, and more about who can buy this or that, or position themselves by utilizing the aides mentioned to get to the top. That's what it is now - a race." My deer scored better than yours, look at the freakin' G2 on that thing, I shot a split browed slobbernocker freak nasty that'll have to go 186"+.......and, blah, blah, blah......" All that the deer farmers are doing is dragging you down to the next level of dumbed down/watered down reality tv type deer hunting. Really, what did we expect would happen?......

11-Oct-11
Scoring that sucker would be a pain!

From: Jack Harris
11-Oct-11
Well said Roger - WELL SAID

From: rchunter
11-Oct-11
This buck is a breeder buck I dont know why they would let someone shoot it?

After its breeding life maybe its just a cow...

From: Grounblind
11-Oct-11
Well said Roger x's 2

the trouble is how many are reading into it as they should. So many people wear blinders to what is real and what is imagined.

From: Tigereye
12-Oct-11
roger 2x in one week we agree. this is getting to be a habit.... cut it out

From: Bake
12-Oct-11
Roger. . . .what should hunting be? You stated above "Hunting became less about what it should be. . ."

I think our definitions will differ. Are you right and I'm wrong? Am I right and you're wrong? Are we both right? Are we both wrong?

Is it black and white? Or are there shades of gray?

If neither one of us is right, and neither one of us is wrong, is your opinion worth more than mine? Is your way better even if we're neither right nor wrong?

Hunting is different things to many people. Is the meat hunter morally superior to the trophy hunter? How about the guy/gal that hunts for the experience of seeing different places, interacting in some way with animals, and doesn't really care what they shoot?

Is the minimalist superior to the gadget man? Some dudes like gadgets. Some like to keep it simple. Which is right and which is wrong?

Is one way right and the other wrong?

I'll give a non-hunting example. . . My parents are golfers. Big golfers. They love to golf. They travel around the country participating in tournaments for golf. They have nationally acredited handicaps. They really don't care if they win.

They also play a lot outside of tournaments. They have the latest thing in golf clubs. My mom is a lefty, so they special order her some club every other month or so. They have the GPS skycaddie things.

Some would argue that they are doing it "wrong" because they might occasionally use the GPS sky caddie. Some might say they do it wrong because they use top of the line titamium clubs (or whatever they make clubs out of)

Do you really see any problem with them using fancy clubs and GPS if they are still enjoying what they are doing?

Bake

From: David Alford
12-Oct-11
I'll argue the contrary position a bit more. First, discard the image of this buck, I admit it is over the top as the extreme muscle guy pic. Image is everything and combined with the fence in the background the argument of extremes fails.

But what about the case of those huge but beautiful red deer stags such as found in New Zealand? Many hunters making the trip to New Zealand aren't even aware these deer have been bred for their beautiful (as compared to grotesque) antlers. Most of the big racked red deer come from recently released animals on small to medium sized farms. Not my cup of tea, but the deer are magnificent specimens.

Now take this a few steps farther and upscale to huge properties with the deer being wild for at least two generations...I personally wouldn't have an objection even though the basis was manipulated/selective breeding in the beginning.

And by the way, the great trout fishing in New Zealand is essentially "unnatural" in the sense that the none of the brown or rainbow trout are native. All the trout today can be traced to artificial introductions from selected stock.

From: roger
12-Oct-11
Bake, simply stated, hunting 'should be' about interacting with nature - at any level you've eloquentley described. My commentary is aimed at the narcisistic attitudes which created the vehicle to produce that animal, under those circumstances. Yes, this is a philosophical debate to be certain. What I think is beyond debate however, is the obviousness of that particular situation, and others just like it. And, in keeping with my certainty theme, I don't approve of 'test tube' "game" animals.

If an individual adult wants to pump himself full of steroids, HGH and whatever other nonsense to circumvent real work and accomplishment, then so be it. I don't happen to believe we have, or should posess, the inherent right to subject nature and her bounties to the same type of such ridiculousness.

I could be wrong about all that and others definetely have the right to disagree.

From: T-bone
12-Oct-11
Personally, I think that if you ate the deer in Jack's pic, you would ultimately mutate into the guy in Tigereye's pic. Looks like Mid-life crisis for both animals. Did you notice that the white deer is ignoring the buck with the afro? Coincidental? Bigger is not always better guys. Back on the topic. Hunting is hunting. Everyman's limit is self set, outside of state minimums, so who are we to define what's appropriate? If you think that's gross, Once I saw a man come in from a marsh hunt with a button buck in his flat boat pleased as punch that he had killed something. I'm from Louisiana, where there is no state minimum on antler number, and I hadn't even killed a deer or been on a hunt yet, that evening was my first venture out for hogs, and when I saw that, I almost puked!!!! But, I don't know how many kids he has to feed or if he even had a license. Wasn't my business. But some guy somewhere is going to find that buck worth paying for. Kinda like dating a chick with huge, fake cans. It's gonna cost you and you might look like the man for while, and you can tell the story anyway you want to but enjoy it while you can because eventually the novalty wears off and the one you work for will always be the one you keep either on a wall, in your head, or in your bed! Good luck this year fellas. I'm out.

From: DaveN
12-Oct-11
To each their own. If some fat cat wants to shoot a cow inside a fence have at it. He's the one that has to live with his conscience, not me. If it makes him proud to sit in his lazyboy and look at the rack up on the wall then all the power to him, just don't call it a "hunt" because it ain't!

Oh, and I don't blame the owners of these fenced in places one bit; if there is a sucker out there that wants to pay me multiple thousands of dollars to boost his ego who am I not to take his money?

From: Canuck
12-Oct-11
Jeez! As much as I would love to shoot a big buck, this is not for me.

Just to be clear though, I want to say, if someone wanted to hunt this buck, I will never judge you!!! My thoughts are, I will never be holier than you for any legal endeavour!!! If it is legal where you live and you want to do it, go for it!!

I want to thank the person that posted this! I am now even more energized to hunt for a nice buck and a couple of does that keep heard size in check. I want to shoot a big buck and will enjoy every minute doing so! Believe me a nice buck in my neck of the woods doesn't look like that!

All the very best to everyone from Canada! AND please remember, I judge no man!!

From: Kevin Dill
12-Oct-11
Nobody should be surprised or impressed by that picture. Man has been selecting and breeding animals for their genetic traits almost as long as we've walked upright. All that's been created is a mutant buck. The rack is distorted due to a genetic mishap, and it's a dead certainty the deer (there) have other genetic deformities. Science does that.

What continues to sadden me is the demand and acceptance for these oddities. We simply have too many weapon-toters with too much money and too little ethics.

The business man who created this thing is the most normal part of the whole equation. He's just responding to a business opportunity. Money usually trumps ethics.

From: DC
12-Oct-11
I would never pay to hunt a deer like that.

But I would love to see the look on peoples faces when they saw that thing hanging on the wall.

From: mark21tn
12-Oct-11
hunting inside a fence is not hunting no matter what anyone says sure everyone wants a world class buck but i want a world class wild buck.....all states are diff. iowa 150 to 160 common tn that same deer would be monster all trophy's are diff. depends where you are would rather kill 120 class wild deer than hunt and kill 200 inch inside fence......no matter how big the area is its still fenced

From: David Alford
14-Oct-11
Seems to me the deer breeders lack imagination. I suggest they instead work on bigger body size and massive typical frames. Very doable no doubt even using natural diet. Hunt conditions are a separate subject and the odds are not much thought will be given to it as well.

From: RANGER765
14-Oct-11
David I do, I have 2 bucks that are well over 300lbs and 6x6 frames with 27 inch inside spreads and perfect typicals. Also have 200 lb yearlings. So it oges to what a person wants, not everybodys the same

From: Foodplot
14-Oct-11
Glad to see you guys would not shoot this deer if he came under your stand.Don't let him come by me.

From: JRW
14-Oct-11
Foodplot,

That's not possible, because I don't hang my treestands in pens.

From: Foodplot
14-Oct-11
But if he did you would be shooting.

From: Jack Harris
14-Oct-11
Foodplot if that exact buck came under my fair chase stand, I would shoot it to put it out of it's misery, then I would call state biologists to test it and further check for radiation in my area.

(After i fist pump, take a moment, thank the lord, and call North American Whitetail and start my world record 560" non-typical tour)

Come on - the point of this thread was just the absurdity of it all and where is it all heading? We all know nothing 1/2 that size will ever walk under a fair chase stand anywhere in the world unless someone did let it out of the pen.

From: roger
14-Oct-11
Foodplot, your talking point is about an irrelevent hypothetical situation that is not going to happen, and it's not even silly, at best. The point of his thread is to discuss the absurdity of growing 'artificial game' and killing it under those same circumstances. And, this is obviously that. Yes, out of an obligation to nature I'd feel compelled to kill it to ensure the game comission a case against the individual who let it out of it's pen. It's not a game anImal. Period.

From: Desperado
14-Oct-11
TX Hunter and Blakes are right on. You can't compare high fence and low fence ranching operations. You can't get around the fact that HF operations not only take what doesn't belong to them, but they also impede the movement of other animals that are owned by the state. The deer doesn't make me sick, but the people who created him do.

From: RK
14-Oct-11
I find that deer neither sad nor disturbing. With all of the many things in the world that are really sad and disturbing that deer is not even a blip on the radar.

Interesting discussion though for those that think any of this really matters. Conversations and debates involving the iconic whitetail always stirs the very essence of the North American hunter with or without regard for factual information.

I do find it very fascinating what a free range whitetail and/or a high fence whitetail can grow into given the chance to reach maturity and given the right nutrition.

From: Str8Shooter
14-Oct-11
I'm shocked that this many bowhunters don't have a problem with this. My stomach turned when I saw the pic. This is what the wonderful world of media has brought deer hunting to. And it's sad.

I wouldn't go in there to hunt for free,with the promise of getting the next "world record". I'll stick to my small patches of woods and marvel at the sight of ANY deer I see. Maybe I'll even arrow a P+Y buck someday. If not, does are good eating and the occasional young buck.

Our Fathers and Grandfathers would not be impressed. At least mine wouldn't be. Hunting is a multi-million dollar industry as it is, let's not alter a perfect animal to make more money. And fences, you should put em on the borders not around deer.

From: RK
14-Oct-11
Str8shooter

Be careful what you wish for. Fences on the borders would make the whole United States High Fenced. What a problem that would create, but it would end the debate high fence vs. free range. That would be refreshing.

From: Jack Harris
14-Oct-11
RK - technically it would only fence out Mexico and Canada - the rest would be naturally surrounded by the Atlantic, Pacific, and Gulf of Mexico. Now you are raising the argument "how many acres of high fence does it take to become fair chase?", and then you could bring up "what about deer hunting on Anticosti Island, etc" and the debate could go on and on and on... So if Anticosti is considered fair chase, I'm sure high fencing out Mexico and Canada would still leave the 125" NJ buck I typically pursue "fair chase", but lets keep making the debate as extreme and absurd as the deer in the picture. This isn't a Ford vs. Chevy debate - it's about what is happening to our sport and how things are being sold under the auspices of a "hunt" when I bet most of us would not mind as much if deer farming and high fence game shooting were not associated with the word "hunting". Simply put - that buck pictured is Barry Bonds breaking Mark McGuire's and Sammy Sosa's home run records. We all know Roger Maris still owns that mark (done naturally).

14-Oct-11
I think its repulsive and should be put out of its misery.

From: RK
14-Oct-11
Jack --Roger Maris (done naturally) Are you sure?

Fencing the borders would be fencing the water sides also, but no need to worry about the details, stupid argument anyway.

I have no idea how old you are Jack or how old any of you guys are...but can anyone tell me how many deer are in in Pope and Young that were killed behind high fences? What were the rules in the past?

No need to worry about any of that, like I said most of these arguments are to be left to people that really think it matters.

BTW, nothing is happening to the sport of deer hunting other than more people chasing less opportunities, just like Disneyland, prices keep going up because there are always people that want the opportunity to play.

It is different than in the past but so are a lot of things. Like I said in the grand scheme of things deer farming is a minor issue when compared to what is going on in the world these days. However, I find great joy in the fact that many people have nothing else to worry about than that deer in the photo, things may not be as bad as I thought.

From: RK
14-Oct-11

From: Str8Shooter
14-Oct-11
RK, you're right, stupid argument. I was in Yankee Stadium when Maris and Mantle played. let's not stray off track. We were talking about deer and deer hunting. The fence thing struck a nerve, sorry.

There are many more pressing issues in this world,but there are plenty of other sites to voice your opinion. We were talking about mutating animals, specifically deer. And caging them in fences for people to pay to shoot. I DON'T agree with that..

This is a bow hunting site, and a damn good one. The topic came up, people gave their opinions. You "found joy" that we have nothing else to worry about in this world. The topic was brought up, people responded.

From: Jack Harris
15-Oct-11
RK - when there are more people chasing than there is naturaly game to pursue, my choice will be to stop hunting - not pay to go to "disneyland" which is exactly what these high fence paid deer shoots are. And yes I was talked into doing it once against my better judgement but I did get valuable insight to how it really works which is why feel I can speak to it with some intelligence. I learned all I needed to know in 3 days back in 2007. So if someone challenges me with "don't knock it until you tried it " well - I did.

Most of us have some code of ethics we follow in the way we hunt, and conduct ourselves in life.

We respect the self-made millionaire that does it honestly with good old fashion hard work and ingenuity, never forgetting where he came from and conducting themselves with honor and dignity, while we despise the cheats and crooks that bend and break the rules to get there twice as fast and even boast about it and want to make sure you know how successful they are..

I think that is the difference between the majority of those of us on bowsite that hunt for the hunt, versus one that would take the shortcut, pay whatever it takes to kill and display the biggest bones on his wall so he can brag about his giant booner...

You know there is some j#rk out there that sees that picture and just knows he has to be the one to kill it, whatever the cost. It just has to go on his wall. Imagine the guests at the cocktail party oooing and ahhhing over it...

Other than the sad plight of this freak deer having to suffer carrying that giant mass on his head - I am equally as troubled by the need for that market driven by the folks that must have it..

Thats the mentality I do wish was no where near or associated with the sport we love...

God bless, and good fair chase hunting to you all...

From: Archerdan
15-Oct-11
To answer the question: YES

However, this is America and animals do not have rights.

We do not have the right to tell others they shouldn't run a business a certain way and make a certain product. And yes deer would be the product.

As much as it may sadden you about this we can not move towards shutting down a business/industry just because we "think" it is wrong. What's next shutting down a strip club.......then the bars.......then the libraries.

Land of the free.......pursuit of happiness.......these are more then just words written down we have to practice them and that means letting others do things we may not agree with.

From: Desperado
15-Oct-11
I disagree Archerdan - this is a free country (or at least it is still partially free) and we do have individual property rights, but when your rights infringe upon the rights of others we have a problem. I have a free range piece of land that has been greatly affected by high fences. It is currently blocked or partially blocked on three sides. I do not no if I would be so outspoken if I were not personally affected, but I am. Our government was established to protect my rights as much as the HF operations. I also think it is our right to shut down or regulate other industries if they have a negative impact on others (ex. excessive pollution). Look up negative externalities in regards to sound economic principles. This is not a "too bad" situation where we should just deal with it. It is my right and the right of others to change it if we see the need.

As far as there being bigger problems out there - I completely agree, but I will voice those concerns in a different forum.

Long live the free range hunter.

From: Ben Farmer
15-Oct-11
If the owner of that deer called me up and told me a just won a free "hunt" to go to his place and kill that deer, i wouldnt do it. I would rather go behind my house and hunt for a doe then shoot something like that in a pen.

From: roger
15-Oct-11
Desporado, that is the single best post I've read here in a while, and I couldn't possibly agree more. Your's is the mindset of a true hunter, imo, that is.

From: RK
15-Oct-11
Desparado

I am not sure what "rights" the high fences have taken from you. I would like for you to explain that a little more.

From: David Alford
15-Oct-11
I believe Jack Brittingham hunts wild mega bred deer on his large ranch under what is probably a fair chase environment even though high fenced. If these are second and subsequent generation bucks born on the ranch I don't know that it's a copout any more than if he wants to stock the lakes on his ranch with fry from mega bass as opposed to fry from smaller fish. Not saying his bucks should be entered in the record bucks, but I support his right to do pretty much what he wants with his ranches. I suspect he also improves the habitat so other wildlife also benefits.

From: Jack Harris
16-Oct-11
David - "fair chase" and "high fenced" in the same sentence... Although you do make a compelling point - I think many would find that highly conflicting and mutually exclusive..

The more I read opinions on the majority and minority - I just don't see how any high fence will ever be considered "fair chase" with the majority.

We are all after the same thing- a quality hunting experience, and to take something that makes us weak in the knees, that was truly born in the wild and lived it's life that way - before we take it... It's the "how" it was done - seems that matters the most..

Personally - other than taking a whitetail doe in September (which is always a thrill no matter what), my October has been the worst ever - until today. I saw 9 deer this morning, including 4 young whitetail bucks I would pass, and tonight watched a pre-rut crazed very young 4pt buck attack and grunt at 6 other doe and fawn around my stand.. Never put the bow in my hand because no intention to shoot - but it was a huge thrill none the less.

Shooting anything inside a pen no matter how big - I just don't see how it could compare..

From: yrovikle
16-Oct-11
There is a sucker born every minute...

From: David Alford
16-Oct-11
Yes and I understood that some might find mentioning both in the same sentence to be contradictory. I've never hunted high fence myself, but I have studied both sides of the argument and have concluded if the property is large enough fair chase/ quality hunting is very doable. If that's the case and I had Jack's millions, why not set the ranch up with quality deer to begin with just as one would in stocking lakes with top quality bass? I have zero interest in shooting a canned hunt mega buck but I would say a reasonable argument can be made for the type of ranching operation Brittingham has established if those deer are legitimately wild.

From: Archerdan
16-Oct-11
How come there is ZERO complaints from or about people that fish in ponds?

Fish in a pond are "fenced" arent they? So to be fair, shouldn't only fish caught in a river or the ocean be ethical to catch? And shouldn't we then try to close down and prevent people from fishing in ponds?

From: yrovikle
16-Oct-11
There is a sucker born every minute...

From: David Alford
16-Oct-11
Archerdan, that occurred to me as well. I think a high fence on a large property that is managed for quality deer and good habitat the fence is not to keep deer from escaping or to constrain them but rather to keep other deer out. I hunt public lands so the pros and cons are not that relevant to me.

From: Canuck
16-Oct-11
Wow! I'm just going to go hunting with my bow, as I have for 20 years now. (got in to it a bit late if you see ever see a pic of me). Things are so simple and neat here. I hunt hard with my bow every year and take several deer. EVERY one is a trophy (to me!)and I hunt on my own land and some the I have permission to hunt on. Leases are almost unheard of up here. High fence is only for pen raised red deer, elk etc. No whitetails are pen raised in Ontario Canada to my knowledge. Great respect and very best regards to all of you bowhunters notwithstanding the fact that we may disagree of some things! I, as a bowhunter will never judge any legal hunt anywhere. Why can't we all just hunt the way we want and not judge others? Jaazus we have enough enemies out there!

From: Desperado
17-Oct-11
Thanks Roger! RK - I lost the opportunity to hunt the native deer and their offspring that were trapped in the fence along with the ability to hunt natural travel corridors that go through my property. Maybe it's hard to understand unless it has happened to you. Our property has been turned into a cul de sac. If someone wants to fence in and impede the movement of wild deer, I think at the minumum there should be consent from adjoining landowners. If that was the case I know there would be a lot less of them out there. But even with that, future landowners would suffer the consequences of such agreements. At least they would know the limitations before buying. Having bass or catfish in my pond doesn't affect the fish in your pond! Put plainly, it is wrong, and I think most people on here would agree. If you don't, you're sure not going to convince me otherwise!

From: David Alford
17-Oct-11
Point taken but on the positive side these ranches have an income producing resource that is a lot less likely to end up as some realtor's development project or compromised for a full out cattle enterprise. As a hunting ranch it can be done right or not, that is where the owner's wisdom comes in, not tom mention the maturity of hunters themselves.

From: Foodplot
17-Oct-11
Do any of you guys use doe pee or other deer scents?If so where do you think it comes from.

From: stealthycat
17-Oct-11
I swear these bucks are genetically altered in many many ways to generate antlers like that.

its livestock - aint nothing different that raising cattle, 100% legal and should be

aint no hunting in it though, don't confuse the two

From: Blakes
17-Oct-11
High fences = stealing a public resource. I have still not seen anyone here address this issue. Can anyone explain to me how that is OK?

17-Oct-11
?

From: Foodplot
17-Oct-11
I am not stealing anything!!!!

From: Blakes
17-Oct-11
If you build a high fence and wildlife is not able to leave your property you are stealing a public resource! In this country the wildlife belongs to the public and you are not allowing it to leave your property... how is that not taking it?

From: Foodplot
17-Oct-11
Here we go again.You are talking about something you know nothing about.

From: Jason Scott
17-Oct-11
I think it should be against the law to captivate or sell a game animal that is indigenous to this continent. If a landowner wants a high fence there should be no whitetail deer confined inside the fence. High fences should be for holding exotics only. There should be no advertising of individual deer for sale on free range land too. I say this because, at least here in Texas, the deer are the property of the state, which means they are equally owned by all the citizens of the state even when they are on an individuals private property. Trespass/hunting fees for hunting rights are ok but not marketing a specific deer.

I agree with Deperado about the high fence issue. If you get blocked in by neighbor's high fences you are negatively impacted and the courts should fairly consider your losses. It should be required that fences are built a distance inside the property line so there are no checkerboard blocks to restrict deer movement to your land.

As far as private property pond stocking, again, here in Texas, fish in a private pond are legally considered private property and you don't even need a fishing license or bag limits. But you do need a hunting license to hunt whitetailed deer anywhere.

From: roger
17-Oct-11
"Point taken but on the positive side these ranches have an income producing resource that is a lot less likely to end up as some realtor's development project or compromised for a full out cattle enterprise. As a hunting ranch it can be done right or not, that is where the owner's wisdom comes in, not tom mention the maturity of hunters themselves."

I would rather see a sub-division or cattle ranch, than peddlers of death pimping out whitetail deer. These people are bastardizing and otherwise dumbing down the sport of hunting, and I have not one use for them. A high fenced hunting ranch can be done correct? Is that why most of Texas does it's hunting in a cage now? I don't know that it can be done right or wrong, but it certainly is what it is.

I think these people should be held financially accountable for what it is they stole from their respective states. They took perfectly wild and native deer owned by the state, owned by the taxpayers even, and put a fence around them and yelled, "MINE!!!" They are nothing more than thieves.

From: Blakes
17-Oct-11
I don't know what I am talking about? What do you mean? Are the deer a public resource or not?

Thank you Jason Scott. That is exactly what I am saying... Indigenous game animals are the property of the State and its citizens! If you want to load your high fence with exotics or feral hogs I don't care, but make sure all native wildlife is off there before you close the gate!

From: RANGER765
17-Oct-11
And if I own 1500 acres and tell you can not hunt am I stealing your public resource?

From: roger
17-Oct-11
No, not neccessarily, anyway. If one lives sandwiched between two off limit properties that are not fenced, then those animals are not held captive and can free range onto my property as well, and vice versa. That way they are neccessarily still a "public resource". That is the point.....

From: Desperado
17-Oct-11
Well said Blakes, Jason, and Roger. Foodplots do we not know what we're talking about because we disagree with you. Personally I think I am very well-versed on the topic. I like the idea of moving off the property boundary to erect fences for exotic game. At least that would leave travel corridors for the native species. However it's done, it is a problem that needs to be fixed.

From: Foodplot
17-Oct-11
You need get your ducks in a row.In IL. we have to run all the free ranging deer out before we close it off.Then I bring in my OWN gentics.I don't want the free ranging junk gentics.There you go.

From: RANGER765
17-Oct-11
The facts are that it is my property and I can do as I see fit. If I dont want someone to hunt or trespass, I can. If I want to fence it for anything I can, and if makes people mad so be it.

From: roger
17-Oct-11
"I don't want the free ranging junk gentics.There you go."

I wonder how it's possible that an entire species can proliferate through thousands of years of dramatic ecological change, and have "junk gentetics"? That is as counterintuitive as an argument can possibly be, and completely void of any fact.

No, there YOU go......

From: Blakes
17-Oct-11
Ranger765, Yes you can, but that does not make it right. I am not saying that you cannot do it, only that, like it or not, it is wrong and it is taking a public resource. If there was a law like Foodplot claims there is in IL and it was enforced, I would have no problem with it. However, I honestly doubt that you can remove all the wildlife from a 1500 acre parcel so I do have a problem with it.

From: Blakes
17-Oct-11
Sorry, I should have added, "In my opinion"...

From: Foodplot
17-Oct-11
Other wildlife come and go all the time.It is a haven for other wildlife.The fence does not stop them.Blakes all you have to do is look it up.

From: Foodplot
17-Oct-11
Roger,I may be wrong but what QDMA trying to do?

From: RANGER765
17-Oct-11
I am NOT taking a public resource by any means by putting a fence up of any kind. Just like you if your land is yours than do as you please, just like mine is mine. I will not tell you what to do with your property. Evrybody wants the next gimmick to lure animals in, not me I keep them out. Just my opinion Sam QDMA is WHOLE diffrent story!! Ha

From: Foodplot
17-Oct-11
Ok.

From: woodswise
17-Oct-11
Here in Oklahoma if you are going to high fence an area all wild deer must be pushed out before fully enclosing the area. The evacuation of all deer is verified by wildlife officers prior to closing the area.

From: ElkBowhunter
17-Oct-11

ElkBowhunter's embedded Photo
ElkBowhunter's embedded Photo
This is my new sign on my Texas property. So far it works. You gotta love Texas trespass laws.

From: Desperado
17-Oct-11
LADDERSTAND - Just because it is legal now doesn't mean it's right. I think opium and heroin use to be legal, too! :)

FOODPLOT - Why would someone erect a high fence if they didn't want to keep animals in? I'm not sure I understand your statement. As for QDM, I'll address it below. BTW since when does Illinois have "junk" genetics? I have a good buddy that kills wild Popers every year up there.

So RANGER - if I move next door to you it would be OK for me to play my music as loud and as late as I want? It would be OK for me to burn old tires in MY yard and not mow the grass? It's MY land, right?

As a Christian I believe that we are blessed with all that we have received on this earth. As a good steward it is my responsibility to leave the land I have received better than I found it. I help manage the whitetail herds I hunt by planting food plots, creating natural browse and bedding areas, etc. However, I do this for the good of the species not for MYSELF. I knew a guy that owned 10,000 acres. The deer in the area were lacking the genetics to grow nice racks. He could have enclosed his entire property, but instead he built a 20 acre pin in the center. Each year he would tranquilize about 20 native does, and place them in the pin with a dominant buck with good genetics before the rut. He would then release the does after they had been bred. He was more interested in improving the herd than trapping HIS deer. There is no telling how far his efforts went to improving the deer in that area.

The argument about running the native game out of an enclosure before the gate is shut is absurd. It doesn't happen.

From: ElkBowhunter
17-Oct-11
Desperato

Being you are a good Christian man maybe you can see it in your heart to let me help you manage your whitetail herds? I like the story of your friend with the 20 acre pin in the middle. Sounds like a good guy. Are you in Illinos? I lived in Rantol when I was in the Air Force in the 70's. I have heard that Illinos has some pretty nice bucks. take care

From: antarcher
17-Oct-11
For mine, the definition of hunting is the pursuit between hunter and prey, where the prey is trying get away and the hunter is doing their best to capture that game.

These animals in these small enclosures ultimately cannot get away, which is where the pursuit part comes in.

Therefore, if the game you chase does not have a 'prayer' of surviving, it cannot be deemed 'prey' and that takes away the 'hunting' part of the equation.

From: RANGER765
17-Oct-11
desperado, do as you please, its no diffrent then the kid that lives over there now, skeet shooting and racing four wheelers every weekend. But it is none of my business what he does. This is a big problem with society now everybody wants in everybodys business.

From: Birddog
17-Oct-11
Ok, so here is my deal. I grew up hunting in Wisconsin in the 80's and 90's. I never hunted high fences nor did I hunt over BAIT! I believe hunting over bait is the same thing! I bust my brother's chops all the time because he puts out corn starting in August and then sits over it and shoots does all season long! I will give him credit that he does eat all the meat. It's not hunting!!!! It's shooting and basically target practice! I now live in another state in which I have to figure the deer out and shoot them on there terms (hunting)!!! I get one tag and I have to put in work to fill that tag. Birddog.....

From: Grounblind
18-Oct-11
-- in which I have to figure the deer out and shoot them on there terms (hunting)!!!--

What a concept huh, Birddog? I'd love to see the practice disappear and bring hunting back to what it should be.

From: Foodplot
18-Oct-11
I own other property that I manage for me and my son to deer hunt on.It is very good piece of property.

From: Foodplot
18-Oct-11
Running the deer out did happen believe it or not.I don't care.

From: roger
18-Oct-11
Foodplot, btw, the answer to your question is "no". I don't believe QDMA's mission statement was to cull the herd of "junk genetics". Have your 'hunting' as artificial as you want it, it's your choice.

From: MrSimon
18-Oct-11
This thread is a perfect example of what the internet has done to people (including myself).

We are all sitting behind computer screens discussing something relatively meaningless with people we never see face to face ..... while we should be working (raise your hand if you are at work right now), spending time with family (raise your hand if your wife is watching TV in the other room right now), or doing something OUTSIDE (raise your hand if the sun is shining right now).

With that all said, I thought the original picture was a joke. Then I read some more and looked at the website. I was absolutely shocked that such an animal actually exists. Truly a man-made mutant. Its kind of interesting that people can manipulate deer genetics to get such a freak. Personally, I wouldn't pay money to hunt there, but I don't care if someone else does. I've got more important things to worry about.

From: Jack Harris
18-Oct-11
Mr Simon - actually it was the stupid show on TV that caught my attention, that I turned on after spending 6 hours hunting morning and night that day, with nothing seen, so just looked for some deer porn on the tube to satisfy my thirst - and got more than I bargained for.

Then I did turn to the internet, this site - and had my personal feelings substantiated by others, and a few repudiations along the way.

Doesn't bother me - and I am at work right now but when I need to take break, bowsite is a good escape.

From: MrSimon
18-Oct-11
Oh I'm not singling you out Jack, just pointing out how the internet has created a virtual world that lots of folks plug into instead of getting out and experiencing the real world. We all do it to a certain extent - and that doesn't make it a bad thing. Balance and moderation are key.

From: RANGER765
18-Oct-11
Absolutely amazing I had a guy at the house this evening for my wife to work on his horse. Found out he is an avid deer hunter. His first words to me was he wanted to see what I fed my deer to make them grow. Just like 90% of the guys here he thought I had a magic drug I used, boy he got an eye opening. Went to the barn and first thing he seen was the feed, everything a whitetail eats just mixed together. Then went to a pen that had 1 buck in there and the first thing out his mouth looking through binos was "man that is beautiful deer" then went to the next and same thing, then the words came he wanted to see the freak, I dont have one. This guy left with a whole new understanding of what I do. Just like I told him its no secret growing big deer and not everybody has freaks. But reading on the internet just like here gives everybody a bad name because of bucks at the top. And he also found out that there is no special drugs (if there is any)or anything on my property that my deer get fed. Then he ask if I any place to hunt, so just like Jack Harris had 1 bad experience, not everybody is the same.

From: Foodplot
19-Oct-11
Ranger,I get the same thing from my hunters at the preserve on the feed.They all want to see what I feed.It is no secret.I show them my blend.Most of my deer are typicals.Oh except the big drop tine buck I saw in the preserve this morning.I hate those drops.Ha ha

From: RK
19-Oct-11
foodplot

How many acres is the preserve? What State

From: roger
19-Oct-11
"....... my hunters at the preserve on the feed."

.....all starting to make sense now.

From: Desperado
19-Oct-11
Maybe you guys could set up a petting area on your preserves where your customers could feed the deer.

From: Jack Harris
19-Oct-11
I have general question on what constitutes a "preserve". Preserve means to save and protect.

What is being saved and protected?

If the killing of domestic animals inside a fence is considered a "preserve" or the selling of domestic animals to another preserve for the sake of killing them is considered a preserve - well I think thats quite the paradox..

Always wondered about that word...

From: RANGER765
19-Oct-11
how bout a wild life preserve ya hunt. Also tell me how a deer in 20 acres that I see on game camaras only is a demesticated animal. See you think just because I raise deer they are all tame, I have said it before if you think my bucks are tame I will give a thousand dollars to come try to pet one of my breeders right now, cause ya better have good life insurance.

From: roger
19-Oct-11
I've never been attacked in the wild by a wild deer. I have been attacked twice however, by ill tempered domesticated animals. Funny, how taking an otherwise natural being and penning it, changes the animals proclivities, to include, but not limited to, the innate fears that keep it alive in the wild.......

From: RANGER765
19-Oct-11
No just like yo would roger you want your woman to be with you and you only, now multiply that with 10 woman and the man in you gets jealous. Has nothing to do with attacking you on the wild, just guys think my bucks are tame or so called domesticated, has nothing to do with fears at all.

From: Jack Harris
19-Oct-11
I didn't say tame. I said domestic. Like cows. White Geese. Pigs. I am not disputing that given ENOUGH room inside the high fence, The deer, with some hunting pressure could possibly exhibit some or most traits of a wild deer.

I believe another thread was trying to debate how many acres of high fence before it may be considered "fair chase".

My question was more of "why call it a preserve". What is being preserved?

In NJ, the places where pheasants and quail are raised for selling or stocking - are called game farms...

Wouldn't that be more descriptive than "preserve"?

I think it can only be because if it were labled "deer farm" or "game farm" or "High Fence Ranchero" or something along those lines, it would turn away business...

Preserve makes it sound sort of "wild" like this establishment exists for preserving nature, and the wild free ranging deer you are about to shoot.

Seems to me it's marketing 101...

From: Chronic
19-Oct-11

Chronic's embedded Photo
Chronic's embedded Photo

From: roger
19-Oct-11
Your deer are NOT wild and that is the reason they behave the way they do. There is no way around that.

From: TDP84
20-Oct-11
The fact is this is AMERICA! A man is free to put up a fence on his property and it shouldn't be any other way. Just because his fence does not benefit you doesn't make it wrong.

From: TDP84
20-Oct-11
and just as a joke to break the tension a little, I believe it was Robert Frost who said Good fences make good neighbors.

From: RK
20-Oct-11
TDP84

Robert Frost or whomever said it was right.

The high fence is certainly annoying but it does not infringe on anyones "rights".

The two times it has happened to us we just turned lemons into lemonade. As desparado stated it does suck on several some levels but in Texas fenced or non fenced the animals still belong to the State of Texas and the citizens of the state. Access to the animals is still up the the landowner as it was before the high fence went up.

Years ago we highfenced a smaller place 1500 acres or so and called the state to come get their deer as we did not want them, we had other uses planned for the property. They were not interested, go figure.

Good debate on here nevertheless. And it will change nothing.

From: Desperado
20-Oct-11
RK - Who owns the fence if it was placed on the property boundary without mutual consent? Better yet, what rights do I have if the neighboring landowner bulldozes the existing fence (in this situation, built by me) to put in a high fence? Look it up in the law - not clear is it! I disagree this thing could very well change. Don't want to infringe on my rights, back off the property boundary 100 yards or so, and we'll call it square.

From: RK
20-Oct-11
Or back off the property 6 inches. If a fence you owned was destroyed then why did you not sue them?

The property lines should have been surveyed prior to building the fence. What I would do if I was you is hire a surveyor to make sure their fence is on their property line, if not you have a great case.

The fence does not infringe on your "rights" at all, it infringes on your feelings and attitudes. You can still do what you want with your property.

This has happened to us twice. Once on 500 acres and once on 10,000 acres. On the 500 acre deal we completed the 1/4 mile of high fence that completely enclosed that property. Put it up for sale and because of the high fence it increased the property value 30%. Sold it, bought another place. On the 10k we have not decided what to do yet, but there are options in turning lemons into lemonade. You obviously are not in that mindset or have no desire to do anything other than what you are doing. Regardless the fence has nothing to do with your rights as a property owner.

From: Desperado
21-Oct-11
RK - I'm confused - If you think that highfences "suck on several some levels" or are "annoying" (those are your words) why did you put one around 1500 acres? Sounds like your riding the fence (no pun intended) on this issue while making lemons and lemonade. Is it a personal issue? Absolutely. Have my rights to hunt free ranging animals been affected? Yes. How can you cage up something that belongs as much to me as it does to you. Access may be up to the landowner, but trapping something that belongs to both of us is an infringement on my rights. That's like throwing a road block on a public highway. The road is right there, but you can't access it. There are many things in this world that are legal, but that doesn't make them right.

I've also bought another piece of property in an area with fewer HFs. Hopefully they will stay away for the next 30-40 years. Honestly as a hunter don't you hate seeing free ranging animals trapped? Don't you hate seeing the wild outdoors chopped into pieces? These canned hunts are another product of a fast food culture. We want it now without putting in the time an effort. In the process, many will never really learn what hunting is all about. It seems like yesterday I was a kid wondering the woods all day long without the sound of even a car to distract from nature, now I'm a middle-aged man that sees those opportunities slowly slipping away. Maybe it is the inevitable, but it is not hunting. Our nation is becoming a pale reflection of what it once was and I'm afraid hunting will be the same in the near future if we don't make some changes.

From: RK
21-Oct-11
Desparado

My comments as to high fences being annoying and suck have to do with people that find themselves in what they percieve as being fenced out. With many small places that is the case.

My personal opinion is that I have no problem at all with high fences. As a private property owner I have no problem with people fencing their property for whatever reason.

We have properties that are fenced and that are free range. Hardest property we have to hunt in terms of success rate on large bucks is high fenced, easiest is low fenced.

Many people here are confusing deer farms vs. deer breeding areas vs. high fenced ranches. Anyone that thinks a large highfenced ranch say 5000 to 100k acres with no manipulation of the animals is not fair chase has absolutely no experience with such places.

The deer in the originating picture is obviously on a deer breeding operation which has nothing to do with hunting. It has to do soley with raising large deer like raising any livestock.

There was an offer a couple of years ago by a person on this site that offered a free hunt to anybody on a his high fenced operation to come and kill a specific trophy buck on that property. 2 week hunt. If you killed it you did not owe anything, if not you owed hunt and trophy fees. No takers.

Anyway as to your other questions I do not see animals as being trapped on large acreage high fences. I do not see the outdoors being chopped up. The canned hunts, well to each his own. Our country has gone through a lot of changes. I actually remember when people still got polio, glad that has changed. Things evolve.

Once again you have no rights to hunt free range animals, you have a desire to do so but no place are there rights to do such a thing.

Anyway, glad you have a place to hunt free range animals and good luck to you doing it.

From: TDP84
21-Oct-11
My Uncle knows a guy who put up a high fence on his property, and the neighbor pissed and moaned and cried till he was blue in the face, much like your doing. So the man owning the high fence moved it in 50 yards or so, brought in dirt and built an incline up to the fence "all on his own land" so deer could jump into his property off his neighbor's and not get back out. How ya like them apples. I think it is unfortunate that you feel you have been boxed in, but i also feel that what your neighbor or mine does on his property is none of anybodies business but his own. The government already has way to much control over what we do, every little law that is passed takes a little bit of freedom away. I feel like you are blessed to even own land. I'm having trouble getting a loan to buy 11 acres for my family.

From: Desperado
21-Oct-11
TDP84 - I love it when others' make my point for me. Your story is a perfect example of an unethical decision by a highfence ranch owner. Good luck with your 11 acres.

From: Kevin Dill
21-Oct-11
There's a funny thing about America: We all think we have the right to do whatever we want, as long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's rights...as determined by us.

From: TDP84
21-Oct-11
The guy was harassed enough he retaliated. I'm not defending it. Just thought it a bit funny. I think it is unethical to tell somebody what they can and can't do with what is there's. You got screwed, but it's the way it has to be. The lesser of two evils

From: RK
21-Oct-11
TDP84...that is really funny. A ramp for the deer to use. What a really interesting response to a complainer...I will have to remember that one.

Desperado, you need to hook up with thumper here on the site. You guys would make a great team.

Unethical decision by a high fence ranch ower...are you kidding me? Dang Thumper will not even vote for a person that owns a high fence ranch or hunts one.

Maybe you two can march on Austin and get this critical situation solved.

Hunt safe, Hunt fun

From: longboman
21-Oct-11
Do any of you realize that the deer in this thread is NOT for sale to shoot? But his jism is! About $10,000 would get you a vial of it. Thats where the money on this deer and, others like him is made. I personally don't like to see HF operations in prime deer habitat but, HF farms in areas that are not gonna hold a natuaral herd I have no problems with as long as its run the right way.

From: RK
21-Oct-11
longboman

No most people on this thread do not have a clue as to what that deer is all about. But thanks for pointing it out, too bad none of it will sink in.

They sold a breeder deer in Texas a few years ago that went for 450k. Before the check was even written the new owners had sold enough of that deers genes to pay for it.

From: Jack Harris
22-Oct-11
Guys - I sort of knew that when I posted it, it's just that the hunting show was showing him and it was sort of an informercial for Wild River Whiteails... Also Ranger sent me a very informed PM with more information..

My only point was just the absurdity of it all. I mean come on.

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