Contributors to this thread:
Mechanicals for Goat ????
OUt of curiosity what experience does anyone out there on the site have with respect to mechanical broadheads performance on Mt. Goat. Given potential for longer shots and windy conditions there could be some nominal flight benefit, but what about terminal performance.
Blacktail Bob is your man with this one i think one would of shot more goats with expandables than him Thanks Shane
Hopefully I can give you a report on how the Ulmer Edge performs on one in about a month.
I have killed two with Nap Spitfires and my hunting partner has killed three with the same head. One of his went end for end at about fifteen yards.
I don't think all mech heads are created equal any more than all fixed heads and both should be matched to the intended target and conditions. Bow hunters should be open minded enough to realize that there are advantages to be gained in some situations by using a certain style of broad head over another. But I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.
Before long some one will post the inevitable "..why risk your once in a lifetime goat hunt to a mechanical?"
Then I would answer, "why risk missing the shot because your perfect form, release and follow through are not there because of fatigue, unusual position and excitement, plus the wind caused your beloved fixed head to veer over the billy's back."
Shoot what you like, but don't blame the head for your misses, after all you choose them and sent them on their mission.
When I draw a goat tag. I will be using a fixed blade. Goats are tough and so are fixed blades.
I plan on shooting slick tricks on my goat hunt in a few days but will have rage heads on a couple of my arrows cause I really can't make up my mind on which ones I will actually use lol
I've killed 2 Billie's with Mech heads Jakhammer and Rage. #shotplacement
Use what you want but I believe Ambush said it best. Some guys are "fixed-blade" purists and you'll never get them to admit mechanicals are as good. Personally, I'm leaving tomorrow for a goat hunt in the NWT and I'm taking Ulmer Edge broadheads instead of my Magnus Stingers for the reasons Ambush laid out. You can't tell me that goats are tougher than elk. Randy Ulmer and others have killed countless elk and other large animals with these mechanicals and that's good enough for me.
Ambush said it well. The broadhead debate will never end. Each has their merits. Mike
With mtn goats...top of my list would be the broadhead that offers the most penetration. I've been on over a dozen mtn goat hunts over the years and all but a couple took multiple shots with high powered rifles! If you think about it there is a lot of hair, hide, and super thick bones on mtn goats. As far as I'm concerned..next to possibly brown bears..mtn goats are the toughest critter in NA to put on the ground!
I've heard nightmares about expandables but it's your choice and what works best for you! Just as Ambush mentioned not all expandables are created equal. You may want to do a penetration test with the mechanical you intend on using vs a fixed blade. All of us would be interesting to hear the results!
Goats seem to die easier with arrows than bullets. from my experience.
I'll be chasing goats again starting September 10th and there will be an NAP Spitfire on the business end. Same for any moose that happens along.
Starting the 26 hour drive to Wyoming this morning, for antelope. Now that's two contrasting hunts!!
With goats you are dealing with cliffy country where they can dive, tumble, and roll..,,definitely want them to drop fast before trashing the horns and cape!
I'm leaving in two weeks and I'll be shooting 4 blade muzzys. I have full confidence that a well built mechanical would handle a goat in short order but I've had deer run like they had been hit with a 2x4 because of the impact of mechanicals. I have a fear that same situation might push a goat over a cliff. Either would do the job well though!
My experience was not good. I think that they are probably OK if you don't have a steep shot angle. In my case, the goat was directly below me at a steep angle. Shot placement looked good. The arrow deflected upon impact. My outfitter recommended the broadhead and they kill a lot of goats. I am not a fan of them particularly if you may have to take a steep angled shot. I have put arrows in a few goats and for me at least they have been one of the toughest animals to bring down. Much tougher than other mountain game. My recommendation regardless of which broadhead that you use is to shoot with a quiver attached to the bow and keep putting arrows into him until he falls or you run out of arrows.
Iv killed 2 with exp worked just fine .Goats are tuff for sure shot both of mine twice I tell my clients to shoot until there down archery or gun
Goats are indeed very tough to kill, in my judgment probably the toughest pound for pound. I think I've killed six or seven and the last four or five with an expandable. Like anything else, its all about shot placement. Hit him in the chest and he's dead. Mess up the shot and you likely will not recover him.
isn't the hair the issue on deployment consistency
My solids fly out to 100 yards.. No way i would shoot a mech on an animal with that much thick hair.
The old rocky mountain snyper did this Utah goat in for me no problem.
I would just go with your gut feeling . I know guys that killed with both heads and I debated back and forth over which to use on my hunt. I had mechanicals and slick tricks in my quiver and decided on slick tricks while I were on the mountain. In my circumstance I'm really glad I had the fixed cause of shot angle I ended up taking. I really don't think I woulda got the penetration I got if I was using mechanical head. My goat died very quickly in about 50 yds. Decisions.....
Other than Blacktail Bob & just a very few others, most of us can't contribute a whole lot of real "data" to this thread, because we haven't shot many Goats with a bow.
I've only arrowed two Goats, so I can only tell you about those. The first Goat was shot with a VPA Terminator 3-blade vented, and the second Goat with the largest size 3-blade Grim Reaper (1-3/4"). In both cases the heads tore completely through the Billy.
Intuitively, I doubt Goat hair has much effect on penetration of a mechanical head. It's so light and fluffy. The Grim Reaper entry hole was small on my 2nd Billy, so the head didn't even open until it started passing through the rib cage. Meaning the hair had no effect on blade deployment or penetration.
Rage extreme 2blade worked great for me at 40yrds..shot placement#
I would likely stick a fixed but if I was going to use a mech it would be an Ulmer Edge or a NAP Killzone.
I used an 1-3/4 jackhammer on my archery goat and it went through like a hot knife through butter...53 lb bow, 340 grain arrow.
Goats are tough but a well placed shot is the key...shoot what flys best for you and you will be fine.
All Mechanical headboards are not created equal. IMO if your going to shoot a long haired animal I would stick with a rearward deploying blade and not a jack knifing type blade.
You would be foolish to shoot anything other than an expandable at any game smaller than Elk. Anything larger is debatable, but smaller there is no debate at this point with the technology and design's that are available. Check out the new Rage+P: offering an all steel, cut on contact, rear deloying 1-1/2" cut diameter, and they WILL hit where your pin is at the moment of truth regardless of flaws in form. "It's WHERE you hit em, not WHAT you hit em with", and you will absolutely love the blood trails... (If you even need them) ;-)
As sticksender mentioned most cannot offer much raw data,as they have not been involved with numerous goat kills. An exception would be Allen and Bolen Outfitters who specialize in B.C. goats. They have had a lot of good results on goats with the Grim Reaper expandable. I personally am a fixed blade fan. But their experience and results on goats with this broadhead has been positive.
Sorry guys Meant Bolen and Lewis Outfitters.
I've been in on over 30 Goat kills. Quite a few with archery equipment.
The majority of my bow hunters have used fixed.
But for many years it was not legal in Alaska to use expendables on Mt Goat.
Just our of curiosity what is protocol for a gut shot goat. same as with other animals. wait them out, let them bed, try to keep in sight. how far would they normally go
You will likely have nothing to track because what little blood that you get will be soaked up in their long hair. They are notoriously tough and it has been my experience that they immediately head for the nastiest areas. Gut shot goats are not like gut shot deer. You need to stay away from the shoulder and the guts.
Sat in on a goat seminar at the p&y rendevous and john gardner rtecommened fixed blades based on being in on 30+ kills. He said he has witnessed mecanicals bounce off goats due to long hair and stout shoulders. He would be considered an expert in this circle imho
"Elkman you are correct IF, they open,,,,, "
That is generally a fear of those with no relevant experience.
My issue has been trying to keep them from opening when practicing...
I'd like to see a well weighted arrow with a mech head bounce off a goat.
Those were his exact words not mine. He highly recomended fixed blades. I personally use rahe hypodermics and they are devasting
I can't imagine a Rocket Steelhead not working, but have zero goat hunting experience. Peno wise, it's been my experience that anywhere a Grim Reaper does OK, a Steelhead does better.
I did mine with Muzzy. No problem
This notion of Goat hair impeding broadheads I think is mostly in our imagination. Goat hair is light & fluffy and their skin is thin like a deer. There exist much tougher species with respect to hide and hair....like Moose. IMO any head suitable for deer-like game will work well on Goats. The bigger concern is, no matter how perfect you hit 'em with a broadhead, they're gonna run off. And when they fall, they're liable to roll down the mountain like a beach ball, for a long, long way!
Bou... haven't you done that hunt yet??? This is from two years ago already... =D
My only thought is a mechs performance with hard angles and thick hair. I don't think they "bounce off" in the mental image that brings up, but I have seen years ago on a "swing open" blade type that "jackknifed" or "pole vaulted" or whatever you might call it on a hard angle and one blade hit before the point. It looked like it "bounced off" for sure. There was one slice in the deer's hide and some hair on one blade of the head. That was many years ago and I couldn't tell you what brand it was. But I did see it with my own eyes. IMO a fixed blade would not have done that.
I think a more squared up shot angle would not have that issue. And as several have stated, the designs and materials have come a long way since they first came on the market. That's a good thing. My hunting partner was a bowhunting guide for years and he had a cigar box of bent, broken and mangled mech heads. They didn't require a hunter to use fixed blades, but certainly recommended them.
Toby, was that goat finished off with a rifle?
A little integrity please.
"You would be foolish to shoot anything other than an expandable at any game smaller than Elk. Anything larger is debatable, but smaller there is no debate at this point with the technology and design's that are available. Check out the new Rage+P: offering an all steel, cut on contact, rear deloying 1-1/2" cut diameter, and they WILL hit where your pin is at the moment of truth regardless of flaws in form. "It's WHERE you hit em, not WHAT you hit em with", and you will absolutely love the blood trails... (If you even need them) ;-)"
broadheads aside, I recommend shooting heavy, thin diameter arrows because they will do a lot better with a side wind. I shoot 540 gr which may be over kill.
Yes Sethosu He was going to a deep cliff and I put a bullet in his neck about 65 yards My first shoot yes went back, and came trough the goat The muzzy performance very well, I waas the guy that didn,t performance well. It was not a long shoot (about 45 yards, but to windy)
"It's WHERE you hit em, not WHAT you hit em with"
So true. And as soon as I can be GUARANTEED my arrow will hit where I intend, I'll think about mechs, and that statement will have some validity.
If you do choose them, do so for the right reason. Shot distance and wind isn't one of them. If it's too far for fixed, it's too far, period. If it's too windy for fixed, mechs aren't going to help significantly.
Wouldn't even consider anything else. Lot's of up hill, down hill, and extremes on your shots for Goats. Accuracy and forgiveness in your set up is imperative. The head I would use for Goats is the new Rage Hypodermic +P. All steel cut on contact 1-1/2 inch cut with a far more swept back blade angle and fly like darts.
I agree with razorhead and now you hear a lot of the comments from the so called pro hunters saying "if you want a huge entry hole" shoot this ----------insert mechanical name here. Entry hole now that is funny. I rarely see an exit hole on a lot of shots with mechanicals. I myself have a problem with the fact guys say they cannot get the same flight with a broadhead as a mech. well learn to tune your set up then, because that is the problem. Shawn
Haven't hunted goats but shot some huge bears that had some long thick hair, all shot with snyper mechs(similar to a rage ss or hypo +p) my arrow doesn't even seem to slow down as it goes through! IMO as was stated earlier, your at a disadvantage using a fixed head on anything smaller than an elk.
Picked up a pack of grim reaper fatal steel 1 1/4" the other day to have in my quiver in case of a longer shot in the wind on a moose, these heads look awesome, I can't see them failing! On any other shot I will be using an exodus
I like the exodus, but have not used one. For the life of me, I have no idea how the Grim Reapers work, but they do, that is for sure. I was given some, once the black plunge came off, it wall went to pieces, and the blades are so tiny , and not sharp, but hey guys have luck with them,,,,,,,
Good advice on these posts, I have never shot a goat, but shot 2 rams, one with a magnus stinger and one with a ramcat,,,,,, I only shoot 53lbs so I do not have enough push for a mech, but I would listen to the voice of experience on the site......
I would revise my selection to the Rage Trypan. I like the over all head design better.
Successfully took a Billy with a Rage 100 grain 2 blade at 42 yds. These heads continue to make me a believer over and over, including elk. It’s hard not to use them after you see how effective they are.
How do the shoulder blades on a goat stack up to those if deer or bear. A lot stouter?
Goats have very dense bones. Stouter than deer or bear.
Mechanicals for this? Mechanicals for that? Man, just, mechanicals for everything! Why not? The failure thing is b.s. The cutting diameters are awesome. The low profile design ads even more awesomeness. Lower profile head can be used with a lower profile vane. Crosswind accuracy just went to double thumbs up status.
Just make sure the bow is tuned, the front of center is good and the arrow weight isn't ultra light. They'll work just fine.
I have no problem getting fixed blade heads to fly like laser beams so mechs are no cop out. I get pass throughs no matter what I shoot but I'll tell you this; the copious discharge left behind by the mech heads is better than fixed. Its a bigger hole so no surprise there. You pinwheel a shoulder with any head you're odds suck no matter what you're shooting. No surprise there either.
Well depending on time of year the hair could be a lot thicker and a lot coarser than most other critters if you think that might matter on expandable performance. Also there is more meat on the front quarters on a goat than the average animal. I guess from leveraging themselves up on rocks and cliffs. So if your shot is a little forward an expandable might not perform as well in that scenario too. I have nothing against expandables. In my experience (of killing exactly 1 goat with a bow, eh) they are one of the toughest animals to kill. After 1 well placed shot and a 2nd shot from almost straight down that spined it and paralyzed the back legs , the goat still managed with it's front legs to roll itself 2,000 feet down the mountain!!!
Bou I just read this one today. At lunch. Anyone have any new insights?
I remember a few years ago Woody Sanford did some broadhead testing with mt goat "parts" and he didn't really recommend fixed or mechs if I recall, but did conclude vented broadheads often had penetration issues over non-vented. Vents would often grab a wad of hair and pull it through with them.
Kinda miss Woody. Hope you're out there somewhere buddy. Guy had forgotten more about broadheads than most would ever know..... not that I would give him that point in a debate, but true none the less.... =D
John Gardner has indeed been on dozens of goat hunts and he has witnessed several expandable broadhead failures. I've heard the same from other guides and guys who have helped on numerous hunts.
Didn't we all witness Michael Wadell have a broadhead failure on a huge whitetail a while back on one of these posts.
I understand that lots of people have plenty of success with expandable broadheads but you have to pay attention when there are reports of them failing, particularly on specific animals.
Use a fixed, non-vented broadhead and don’t worry about anything.
Rear deploy two blade and you will have no more issues than with anything else. I wouldn't use anything else on roughly deer sized animals.
Ambush - well said!
Someone mentioned Rocky Mtn Snipers... man those were sweet heads.
Perfectly tuned bows are easy.
Perfectly tuned shooters is where it falls apart.
I'm packing Rage Slipcams for my goat hunt in September. I'll echo Elkman's comment "I wouldn't use anything else on roughly deer sized animals." I couldn't agree more with this statement.
Bou on that payroll....;^)
I have put arrows in four mountain goats and I have taken most of North America's big game animals with a bow and arrow. In my view, mountain goats are one of the toughest animals to bring down with an arrow. Your shot is not likely to be on the level. Most likely you will be above the goat. In my experience, mechanical heads tend to deflect more than fixed blades especially when shot at extreme angles. Add in the long coarse hair of the goat and the likelihood of the mechanical head not opening properly increases. I use mechanicals on some animals, but I would not use one on mountain goats. Tune your bow. Practice at hard angles and use a good fixed blade head. Shot placement is key. Stay away from the hump area. I would also try to put as many arrows in the animal as you can. Your blood trail will be minimal as the blood gets soaked up the hair. My two cents.
I second what Tom (Mad Trapper) just posted. Well said…