Contributors to this thread:
Texas High Fence
Is this pretty much the norm down in Texas now? I saw a picture of Bob Foulkrod's Texas buck posted on M.R. James' fb page and did a search on his nephew's LJ Blessings Ranch. They use specific genetic lines of "breeder bucks" in a 12 acre pen then rotate their offspring bucks through the pen until they reach 3-1/2 years when they are released to be "hunted" that fall on the 1000 acre ranch. Of course these kinds of details are never divulged along with the hero shot. See my link.
I'm really surprised there are enough people interested in these kinds of canned hunts to support the business. To each his own and not judging, but I have zero interest in ever participating. Has anyone here done one of these HF hunts down there? I'm sure it must be expensive and just curious as to what it's really like.
I wouldn't say it's the norm in Texas at all. As long as there is rich folks with big egos there will be a market for this stuff. Sad but no different than guys with the bubba trucks and yeti coolers. Mine is bigger than yours and mine cost more than yours.
I, personally, have 0 interest in a HF hunt. However, the market must be there, because there seems to be more HF operations than ever before.
He’s long arming it in the pic too!
I have done some HF bowhunting but never for Whitetails. I never would. I have hunted day lease ranches for Hogs & exotic Deer I would never be able to hunt in their native lands. Day lease bowhunts usually run $800 to $1000 for 4 days with lodging, Stands/blinds near feeders furnished (that's how all hunting is in Tx). I've bowhunted ranches from 1000 to 5000 acres for Exotic Deer. Usually you are allowed 2 Hogs & 1 hard horned Exotic (choices usually Blackbuck, Axis, a Sheep). Fallow used to be in the list but that's changed on most places. Sometimes they have meat hunts where you can hunt certain Does for a lesser fee. There is NO GUARENTEE of a kill on these hunts. The best I have ever done was 1 Hog & 1 Hard Horned deer ONCE out of out of 6 bowhunts on a 1200 acre ranch. I've taken a hard horn animal on 5 of the 6 hunts & one I never drew my bow. Twice I killed on the last day & last couple hours of the 4th day.. Ranches that are 1000 acres & larger are not walk up & shoot either.. They get hunted & definitely wise up. Don't get me wrong, I know exactly what it is & for us, it's a fun time in the off season (usually Feb or March) to extend our hunting & a chance at an animal we would never be able to hunt otherwise.. The day lease ranches also have Whitetail in season but nothing like these Deer Ranches & IF your there during Deer Season and have the State Deer tag may take one for your hard horn. They usually have some sort of point, age or size minimums though. Your non resident FIVE day Hog/Exotic lic. in Tx runs $45, maybe $50 now but Deer is regular Non-Res fee $$$$$. Now for those ready to hang me, I've been bowhunting since 1956 (38 animals with recurves on the ground) Well over 100 mixed biggame with a compound , 15 states so far, DO IT YOURSELF, free range, Public land, in a tent & pretty darn successful. HF will always be a "debate" but I for one, do enjoy what it offers & know exactly what it is though I would not consider a Deer Ranch that strives only to produce head gear..
I have done it for years when your hunting on a !10 to 20 thousand acres , its a fighting battle to go go over with anyone that hates it but so is talking with an anti hunter, I have a blast and enjoy every trip Texas is awesome
HF is in the DNA of a lot of folks down here in TX. Many of the younger generation grew up with it and don’t know/see any difference .
Voice any opinion against it down here and you are quickly labeled as a traitor to hunting/private property rights by many. I have been on the receiving end of such invectives often. On this forum and other non-Texas forums the vast majority will not be in favor of it and see it for what IMO it is: getting a big head on the wall without actually having to make the sacrifices of actually hunting the animal in any real sense.
I will say the winds of change are blowing and the market for such artificial “hunts” is dwindling. More willingness to debate the subject and movements like B&C’s “Hunt Fair Chase” initiative are educating/changing attitudes. I hope the trend continues.
The body on that deer looks tiny. I would not be interested in a canned hunt like that.
Sorry if it’s not fairchase I have zero interest, regardless of how big the enclosure is. You can fool a lot of people in life but yourself isn’t one of them.
I have no issue with HF hunting. It is actually fun but it is not hunting. It is something that ranges from shooting to real close to hunting. If you are hunting hogs on a 100 acre fenced in area it is real close to shooting but hunting whitetails on 25,000 HF acres is a lot closer to hunting than not. I have done it for hogs and for plains game in RSA and have no issue with doing it again but I have never tried to play it off for more than what it is and that is fun.
I will never do it. I understand that the deer are still (basically) wild animals, but I'm not interested in buying artificial antlers. I've seen a couple of monster deer this season and it never ceases to amaze me how these bucks grow such tremendous racks just by a combination of genetics, food sources, and instincts etc. I've hunted for over 30 years now and have never killed anything bigger than 155", it would be cheating for me to pay money to try and do it inside of a fence. Just my opinion.
There are a few HF operations in my area and I gather that your hunting fee is broken down by the amount of inches of antler of the deer you kill, or want to kill. It gets very expensive.
Looks like the deer is in Texas and Bob is in Oklahoma :)
Couldnt pay me to do a HF kill ...
I have zero interest in taking any free ranging NA animal behind a high fence. If others wish to do so then go for it. I just see them as livestock and nothing more or less. Some guys would probably pay to shoot a cow if you'd advertise it. To each their own.
IMO it comes down to three things related to the hunter.
1. Abundance of money 2. Lack of time (could be broken down into skill/effort/drive) 3. Antler envy
To each their own but high fence is not for me. If i ever end up in front of the fireplace at someones house who has a huge buck; i want to hear the story about it. If HF was involved, mention it. I wont knock you for shooting HF but i am strongly against it for whitetails.
"Now my bucks score from 140 to 185 inches [on the Boone & Crockett score]," he says. "I have one this year that measures 195. Ultimately, my goal is to produce 250-inch deer, and I believe I'm only a few years away from that."
To each their own..............................................but I think I'll let The Good Lord "produce" my deer! ;-)
Genetic alteration. Very sad indeed but not surprising when man and money gets involved.
I wont even hunt pen raised pheasants.......
Better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.
Do y'all realize how big the state of Texas is ? Are high fences the norm here ? I don't know, are 180 inch bucks the norm in Kansas ? The truth is this: There are 180 inch bucks in Kansas, and there are high fences in Texas, but in my 70 years on this earth, most of it spent hunting in Texas, I don't have a single friend who has ever hunted inside of a high fence for deer. Exotics, yes, but not deer. I have zero interest in killing a deer that's been handled by humans in any way, and nobody I know wants to either. That's not for hunters, that's for shooters. Deer belong to the state, exotics are classified as LIVESTOCK , even hogs. I wouldn't give a dime to kill a hog, they're right out my back door in droves.
Yes, I know that lots of guys on another forum I visit go to these places, but I think it's mostly because they hunt much less than I do, and like the beer drinking camaraderie of "hunting camp". They can't afford land or leases, (not much public here and it's crowded with city guys that hunt a couple weekends a year), but they can afford a three day hunt once a season. Some go in the off season even if they do have another place to hunt. I'm about to take my first hunt on such a place, (bow only), in March, for an axis doe, because I love axis meat, and I don't have any right handy.
I would say killing a deer like Foulkrod's in the picture on a high fence place is about as common here as someone driving a Cadillac. Yep, they're here, but nobody I know drives one.
"I wont even hunt pen raised pheasants......."
Stay out of SD then, a good friend of mine delivers his pen raised birds to be released on public lands at O'dark-thirty opening day. :)... and I don't think SD is alone in that practice.
I would like to know how much the fence costs for a 10 thousand acre enclosure.
"Stay out of SD then, a good friend of mine delivers his pen raised birds to be released on public lands at O'dark-thirty opening day."
100% false. The state of SD releases no pheasants on any public land. If this is happening then your buddy is getting paid by a private party to stock public land and I would question the legality of this. There are plenty of pen raised birds released in SD every single day from September-March, but they are not funded by the state and they are not releases on public lands. They are released on preserves and private hunting operations. I've lived here my entire life and worked for a couple pheasant operations and have friends that raise pheasants. I can tell at a glance whether a bird has been pen raised or not. I've shot hundreds of public land pheasants in my life and not a single one was pen raised save a few that border private preserve operations.
Why bother releasing them into a bigger pen when they're already in a small pen? Does it make it that much harder? Does that make it "fair?" Does it give the buck a chance? No, it's to give the shooter the illusion that he's a hunter and the slaughter the feel of a hunt.
The release is a thinly veiled attempt to change what this is really about: The enjoyment of killing deer. Everyone puts a certain value on and has a certain level of enjoyment while engaged in the act of hunting. Everyone puts a certain value on and has a certain level of enjoyment of the act of killing a deer. Everyone puts a certain value on and has a certain level of enjoyment of putting a big buck on the wall.
The combination of these is different for everyone. I enjoy all three tremendously. But it's the importance of the first part that would destroy my enjoyment of the 2nd and 3rd if I were to do it behind a fence where a buck has no chance to escape, and is thus, livestock.
If I gained all my enjoyment from the act of killing a big buck and/or putting it on the wall, then I'd hunt high fence. But I don't, so I never will. And I know in my heart that what I do is hunting and right or wrong, I don't find myself defending the legitimacy of what I do to my colleagues.
I would never hunt hf, does not matter the size of the zoo, it's still a zoo.
I guy I work with just got invited to hunt a ranch in Laredo TX, never hunted a day in his life. Second day shoots a really nice buck (300 win mag the ranch lent him) sends me a few pics. Then proceeds to tell me he doesn't see what all the fuss is about. Whitetail hunting is easy. After he returned home I asked about the hunt to get the details. Come to find out it's a HF ranch, there was 2 bucks he was aloud to shoot. Said the guide dropped 2 bags of corn out the night before they went out. They knew those bucks were in that area. Hell this guy even had to borrow camo, I don't know why, they were shooting from condos. Sorry to me that's NOT hunting, that's shooting fish in a barrel. Added a photo of the deer, cut the guys head off on purpose. The thing that really kills me is he did bring home any meat, didn't even eat the tenderloins that night.
Ok, I get it for the entertainment value. For some guys, that's "hunting". For some guys, visiting the Bunny Ranch in Vegas is "making love".
But posing with a hero shot seems like taking a photo of the big "deer" you just shot on the Big Buck video game down at the bar. Put your money in the slot, shoot the deer. Not for me.
I definitely wouldn’t kill that deer in a high fence. ;) Hunting exotics that are born in a 10000+ acre fence, I’m not above that. Now killing released penned animals, no thanks.
My buddy and I have had some conversations about this. He's taken his son to one of these ranches for axis deer and tossed it out as an idea for part of an off-season vacation.
I'm a guy with quirks.
I wouldn't hesitate to hunt some hypothetical wild, free-range, 5000 acre island, but wouldn't feel right on a 10,000 acre high fence hunt. Even with immensely greater odds of killing a "monster" deer.
Obviously, I'm not some bowhunting "Ahab" on an obsessive quest for giant antlers. Yet, when I think of or dream of deer, they aren't spikes.
But that's OK. I plan my hunts to please myself. FWIW, I think that's a good approach for everyone.
And yet the ranches and deer farms concern me. Seems like they are a vector for disease and, especially the smaller ones, the "penned" hunts, a big PR problem.
that guy is a tool,,,,, ever watch the Bucks of Tecomante,,, another joke
"that guy is a tool,,,,, ever watch the Bucks of Tecomante,,, another joke"
Hunted right next to those guys a few years ago. Most of the ranches are fenced on three sides. You can/could still enter a book buck that way. I enjoyed most of it but won't ever go down there again.
Can someone please add this to the best Bowsite quote ever list...
" For some guys, visiting the Bunny Ranch in Vegas is "making love."
That's what they all say when they first find out. I know it happens. Not hearsay, I was there.
I hunted exotics in the early '80's in TX on high fence. It was actually a cattle operation that had Mouflon sheep and Catalina goats. At the time I was exited about it. I had all of two deer to my credit and wanted to do some hunting. Critters were spooky and alert, but you knew they were somewhere out there.
Whitetails behind fences have no appeal. I would think differently of someone that was hunting deer that just happened to have a fence put around them and grew up there, and you took what nature grew, but when you add all the genetic manipulation and feed then it is just shooting for horns. And I guess if that is what rocks your boat, OK then, but I don't like it when it is passed off as a wild deer until you dig into the details. That really sours it for me.
Why would anyone have to release pheasants in SD on public lands? Why would anyone have to release pheasants period in SD?
Hello it’s SD there are plenty of pheasants there. It’s not hard to shoot your limit with the laws they have.
Dirk, the majority of pheasants in SD are released and shot on preserves. The equivalent of high fence hunting. These preserves have different rules, limits, etc for pheasant hunting and even a different license type for the hunters. Many private landowners also outfit for pheasants and need to replenish their birds throughout the 2.5 month season to keep the 100’s of hunters they run through in birds. Not all operations in the state are run this way but the majority are. The simple fact is that not everywhere in SD is a pheasant Mecca. Modern farming practices and commodity prices have eliminate much of the habitat that used to grow so many pheasants here. Having worked with the pheasants in one form or another most of my natural life I can tell you I have released more than I care to count. Pheasants are big business in SD, no pheasants no business. I think the numbers in 2016 were slightly more than half of our total pheasant harvest consisted of pen raised birds.
Brotsky my Post was a joke. My first 2 SD birds I got back in the 90’ I never fired a shot. First one I literally walked up and grabbed it. Second one my dog did.
LOL, not all released birds are equal, that is for sure.
Nick, Killed on his nephew's ranch. See my link. Here's Bob's comments on his fb page:
"Wait to you see this Buck ‘my Biggest Buck I ever shot ‘ photos coming ‘soon ‘I’m still in the Blind at L. J . Blessings with my nephew Jim Foulkrod"
"Ok Folks here you are thanks for being patients ‘but wanted to give all the respect I could To a magnificent Deer ‘ A special thanks to my Nephew Jim Foulkrod at L.J.Blessings for a All the scouting he did before I got there !"
Like I said, this subject will never be resolved. Now, fair chase is another thing in this day & age also. Food plots, baiting, Trail cams, Deer lures, Better Deer stands, Scent killer, Google earth, quality mgmt. to get a "BIGGER" rack, and the TWO that slay me, Wild Deer named & a HIT list... You be in ANY state that does NOT allow baiting & every farm & fleet, wally world or sport shop has Deer Cocaine & 50 other things to dump on the ground to attract deer (yes, legal to sell). AND THE HUNTER SAYS, I only use it to get photos of what is around, I don't hunt there. (BS). Fair chase does not exist for the majority of hunters today, they only think it does. Hell, when is the last time you hunted a private spot of 1000 acres??? Hell, in todays world, private hunting on a place 400 is rare. You have more acres on most public areas. I've done both, enjoy it all & for the purist, that's your choice & I have no problem with that. I don't care if you use a cannon or a Longbow, its all hunting.. In 60 years of bowhunting I've seen every kind of bowhunter you can imagine & the ones that stretch the rules the most have been the ones with the biggest racks to talk about for their own personal gain for the most part. As far as Folkrod, he has nothing to prove to anyone, just look at what he HAS DONE in the fair chase world..
"that guy is a tool,,,,, ", are you kidding me, do you even know who that is? That's Bob Fuckrod for gosh sake.
I like to hunt too much to even consider such a thing, affordable or not.
I killed a very small whitetail buck this year at 7 yards while I was nestled on the ground in my makeshift brush blind with my recurve, he was 5 yards facing me at one time. Draw timing is so critical at that range. Good times! It makes me think of the hundreds of times that didn't work out but the hunts were sooooo much fun! I wouldn't trade them for anything.
So....I really don’t have an opinion either way. You choose what you want to do and I’ll choose what I want.
Anyone ever hunt South Africa? Plains Game?
Killing livestock is not hunting ! Do ranchers killing cattle post pictures of it ? Hell no
I'll be in a high fence ranch next weekend shooting does, javies and hogs. It is what it is. I don't mind it as I see it as off season fun with my bow! I wouldn't shoot a buck, due to costs and ethics of it all but I'll eat the amazing food and drink the great booze we bring in at night.
Sometimes we all get it wrong..
As far as Foulkrod and his "accomplishments", I know things that I won't post on a public forum. Let's just say he isn't all he seems to be on video....
It's clear this is definitely a regional philosophy.
I have been blessed to hunt all around the country and have done both styles of hunting for different species.
I have hunted behind multi-million dollar homes in Westchester NY, the rolling hills of Oklahoma and the high deserts of Idaho and lots of places in-between.
Honestly, a large HF ranch vs. a suburban hunt are very, very similar. Matter a fact there are deer that live their entire lives in less than 40 acres in many suburban NY areas. I hunted one place where I could kill several deer every sit because the way the deer moved throughout the day because of people movement.
I also just got back from a quick hunt with my buddy for a 2x3 or smaller mule deer (rifle) hunt we killed 3 in 3 hours from 70 yards or less. These were big country high desert mule deer that were as "tame" as anything you have ever seen.
I am not saying HF is fair chase but I wouldn't say every fair chase deer killed is more difficult than a HF deer. I wouldn't pay huge dollars to shoot a big buck but I definitely would hunt WT behind a fence on large ranches if given a good opportunity.
To each their own but I believe in keeping my options open so I can experience things I may not have considered to formulate whether I like it or not.
Wonder if those anti-HF guys will ever go to Africa if given a chance? That would be a tough choice for them.
I have hunted behind a HF, twice. Once at the Y-O in TX for Axis deer. It was a complete joke. Got in a wooden ladder stand, 20-yards from a feeder. When the feeder went off, I shot an Axis deer. gave it to the ranch, didn't even want the antlers. Second hunt was on a private place in Ohio for some kind of sheep, About as challenging as any hunt I have been on. But I have no desire to go anywhere with a high fence, again. As for genetically controlled deals, I have been opposed to that since I first heard of it. But...that said, I don't care what anybody else does, as long as it is legal. Ipull my wagon, they can pull theirs.
You want to hunt high fence , fine. It is sad that now folks are literally growing deer in pens and then release and kill to put up on a wall. For some reason the bigger the antlers the better the Hunter? Maybe, if they hunt public land, but nowadays private land deer are dumb and allowed to live until the ripe old age and then killed and hung on a wall. I also agree with Jaq as far as folkrod goes.
Jaquomo-thanks for the heads up. Bowriter, I bowhunted a day lease (1200 acres) 4 times & the Animal I wanted was an Axis. I finally got a shot the last day of the 4th hunt in the last 2 hours in a down pouring rain. None of the hunts were ever a joke for us. Granted, we saw animals but not always in bowrange.. The one I finally killed was the 1st legal Axis I had seen in the 4 trips (16 hunting days). HF has easy & other times, a challenge. No, not for everyone & definitely not fair chase (non existent today). As far as what has been my easiest bowhunt regardless of private, public, guided or HF. Guided, fair chase Caribou & next I'm saying DIY, public land Antelope..
To answer the pen-raised pheasant inquiry, look at the beak membrane. If you can see daylight through the nostrils, there were peepers in there, indicating they were released birds.
I like how Jim Foulkwad justifies it - "Hunting has changed. People can't stay on a lease for two weeks like they used to. They want to come for three or four days and be taken care of..."
Jaquomo,,,," I just shake my head" I can not comment on this,,,,, I will let it go
Fair chase is the "ONLY" way to hunt and take trophy big game.
Fair chase is the "ONLY" way to hunt and take trophy big game.
Fair chase is the "ONLY" way to hunt and take trophy big game.
Okay, let's take it a step further. For those who say fair chase only. Define fair chase. Does that eliminate supplemental feeding and game cameras? If not, why not? Do you think attracting and holding deer in a specific place is fair? Is that not what supplemental feeding does? Fair chase, to me, is far more than just a fence. Does a game camera not give you an advantage? What I am getting at is simply this. We can get on a real slippery slope in a hurry if we start pointing fingers. Yes, I am a tad disgruntled that Uncle Bob failed to mention all the aspects of his buck. But, when we start getting our panties in a was because of something someone else did, that was perfectly legal, we best be careful. I personally, have no cameras, do no supplemental feeding of any kind. But that is just me and the way I like to do things. I have a friend who must have six-dozen cameras and names every deer. I think it is stupid but I don't really care. That is his business. To truly hunt fair chase, you shoot traditional with very old broadheads and always off the ground in a red and black plaid shirt and bib overalls. Oh, and you have to smoke and cannot wear rubber boots unless they are L.L. Beans. A little tolerance is something I have had to learn. And it was not an easy education. Maybe 30-years ago, I wrote a tongue in cheek, sarcastic newspaper column about deer hunting with heat seeking devices and hand grenades and a bunch of ridiculous stuff. And dadgummed if a lot of the stuff I joked about is not, now, in use. Drones and cameras being two of them. Now. Here is a theoretical scenario: Hunter Joe goes on a guided hunt for trophy whitetail. It is in KY. It is on a 1,500 acre farm, unfenced, animals are 100% free ranging. His guide puts him in a large, heated shooting house with big windows. Guide says, be very alert at 7:15. At 7:12, the feeder goes off and the buck they call presents a perfect, 20-yard, broadside shot. Hunter Joe kills him. (1) Totally legal but is that fair chase? (2) Is that hunting or simply killing? I know that exact scenario happens many times each year. It is all, totally legal. Do we congratulate hunter Joe or ridicule him? Is it even any of our business? Open for discussion and now, realize, I should have started a separate thread. My bad.
No need to even start a separate thread. If people use the search function they can find 149 of them on this topic from the past 4 years. This issues has never been resolved and alignment reached. I think one guys opinion was changed once, but it may have been temporary. This could be the thread, though, that puts this issue to bed once an for all...................we can only pray.
LOL-No, it is only going to get wusser. But on the bright side, after nothing but young bucks walking by me for two weeks, I finally killed a doe an hour so,ago. !00% fair chase, too. She looked fair to me so I chased her down.
Jaquomo- I was thinking the same thing! If that is the case why doesn’t he put a stand right at the opening of the pen- then the hunter can shoot the deer as soon as it steps out? That would save them (hunters) a lot of time! ;-)
Enclosing animals is an entirely different thing than attracting them, scouting technology, hunting with hounds, etc. Even non-hunters understand that intuitively.
To even try and compare penning animals in with those things is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion.
Rut Nut, then they wouldn't get to spend a few days enjoying the gourmet meals, fine wine, hot tub, massages, pedicures, etc.. that we all know are an integral part of every big game hunt.
Those places are not all that different from the place I went in South Africa. People on this side of the pond run them down, but if you go to South Africa, that's what they have to offer. They are what they are, and just don't fool yourself about it. That being said, my time in Africa offered some challenges.
I could have just sat in the blind and hunted over the bait site. But one day, I chose to get out of the blind and crawled through the grass to shoot a really fine Red Hartebeest. That was the most fun I had.
tmbb that is a good point,,,, my neighbor down the road, has hunted fair chase all his life, but he also has enjoyed, HF, for animals available to him. He also has been to South Africa twice, and loved it, but he said, that is what it is, like it or not,,,,,,,
I guess on this thread, the hunter, just does not want it to be known, ,,, yet he should not be ashamed of it,,,,,
I wouldnt call it the norm at all. There are lots of BIG acre places down there that are both high and low fenced. Some even no fenced. Big acre high fence places are far from a shot in the barrel. Many of the hunts Africa, New Zealand, Argentina for big game are on big farms behind a fence. I personally could care less one way or the other how someone else choses to spend their money. Its theirs to spend as they choose. If I had the funds, I'd definitely have a several hundred plus acres high fenced so I could not have some control over what was in there but who. Most everywhere I've hunted I've had to contend with trespassers at some point and there is not a year that goes by where a deer I've been watching for several seasons get killed by someone on the bordering properties that spends zero prep time in the off season.
HF is not my thing but to each his own.
That said....for you debaters, why is hunting island bound animals fair chase?
I met a guy today killed a 350 inch 3 year old buck in Ohio at a deer farm. He told me there were 25 bucks in the 100 acre enclosure. He said it was a $12k deer. Don't think hf is for me (couldn't afford it anyway). I will probably never have my hands on antlers that big again. I don't have a problem with it as long as people don't try to pass it off as fair chase.
I hunted with Bob about 20 years ago, man does time fly. Seemed like a good guy, fun to BS with. His old man was hilarious.
I really don't get why people get all worked up about the high fence deal. If you don't like it don't do it?
I've shot a bunch of pigs behind a fence, never made me question much.
Yeah ghostbird,I agree,,spewing a statement like that shows the level of intelligence,, as to the HF hunts,,ahunter 55 actually did open my negative eyes ,,I'd do a few day exotic hunt,I think you'd simply view it as exactly what it is....fun for some ,despised by others,,,no different than being a 100% bowhunter and not enjoying rifle hunting,,,its simply YOUR choice,,,,
Jaquomo- oh, I see now! They have time for the gourmet meals, pedicures and massages, just not the HUNTING! Thanks for setting me straight! ;-)
Maybe instead of calling it fair chase we should call it FREE chase. Free chase only for me. None of these arguments have changed my mind at all. It was very upsetting to realize a few years ago that South Africa was penned. Off my dream list.
Lee Lakosky just shot another giant in Iowa. Not HF technically, but with the amount of protein he provides these deer isn't in a way changing their antlers for his benefit? I'm sure many guys on this forum can shoot as well as Lee and kill all the same bucks as Lee if only they had got to hunt the same spots. Same goes for guys who kill 4 sheep or a Booner whitetail- sometimes you just need the $ and it's not about who is a better hunter.
I think lee has done a lot of work and deserves his success. Spending 10000 to kill a 170 in 3 days hf, cause my life is busy is not hunting.
But in a way, isn't Lee altering the racks of these bucks?
Maybe the credit should go to lee the "farmer", not the "hunter"
"I'm sure many guys on this forum can shoot as well as Lee and kill all the same bucks as Lee if only they had got to hunt the same spots."
They sure can. All it takes is the balls to quit your job, gamble everything you own, and do the work required for several years. Ain't America great?
Who wants to work on a farm? If I was determined to shoot a giant WT, I would do what most members do here- pay the $ for a 5-day hunt and hope one walks in front of me.
High fence, feeding stations is not hunting, it is just killing tame shit to put on your wall to look at so you feel some self worth. It is not hunting but livestock ranching
Anyone that refers to themself as a hunting legend on Social media is a douche bag..
Envy is at the root of most dissension. We all wish we could kill monster, record book animals. And, the truth is, if we had the money, most of us could. Fact is, most of us, if we had the resources to devote the time and hunt the places, we could also dominate the record books. It only takes a modicum of skill and some determination..and a ton of money...or access. Most of use do not have that. So, we tend to belittle the ones that do. Sure, there are some scumbags out there, we know who they are. But there are a lot more just advantaged hunters who we get all tore up about cause they killed a big one. Couple days ago, I saw a post where someone called Tom Miranda the greatest bowhunter of all time. I like Tom, always have. But in my book, he isn't in the top ten. There is a whole lot more to being a bowhunter than the animals you have killed. I doubt most people have ever heard of half, my top ten. There are people on this forum, I have never met that I would love to share a camp with. And I have no idea what they have killed or haven't killed. Conversely, there are a lot of "famous" hunters, I have no desire to hunt with.
Some of these comparisons or ridiculous, now we are on to Lee for killing giants. The guy has no life other then deer. I'd venture to guess most of use could get some pretty crazy hunting, if we liquidated everything and bought land/hunts.
The high fence killing comments, I shot a ton of deer in Wisconsin on urban hunts that were pretty much just shooting. Shot 10-15 a year with a bow. Challenging no, fun yes, filled lots of freezers.
It drives me nut how we seem to fight amongst ourselves over everything.
The “envy” and “jealousy” card is BS too.
I and many of my friends could afford to buy any buck in Texas behind a fence (and, yes, I live here and know what they cost).
We would consider it flushing our money down the toilet.
TXHunter, I agree ! I could kill a 150" STexas whitetail every year if I wanted to, just a matter of money and a few days. I'd just as soon shoot one at night, it would mean the same thing to me.
Most people don't understand why lots of high fences are even built. Just one example that I know of: A large company owns 10,000 acre place next to a 6,000 acre place. The company place manages for high end bucks, has their own biologist, feeds protein, and won't kill a buck until it's 6.5 or older. The 6,000 acres is low fenced on three sides, the high fence being on the company's side. The company's land recieves low to moderate pressure while the 6,000 acres is a bow hunting only day lease. The leasee who controls the 6,000 acres corns the roads, that's his sole contribution to the welfare of the deer. Fifteen to twenty-five hunters per day for the entire deer season is the norm on the 6,000 acres. The bucks are supposed to be 3.5 years old or you pay a $500 fine. I personally know people, who by their own admission, have shot bucks and left them laying in the brush because they were afraid of the $500 fine. Ground shrinkage ! So, tell me why the company fenced their ranch. And ponder on the ethics on each side of the fence. You already know how I feel about pen-raised deer if you read my post, but the company's deer are all native, not pen-raised.
The moral of this is, at least to me, that there are different reasons for building fences.
Some old man, once said, "Good fences make good neighbors." Of course, they also keep your neighbors from killing "your" deer. I also know, having lived in various parts of TX for many years, from the Hill Country to Uvalde to West TX, that in a many ways, TX deer hunting is unlike deer hunting anywhere else. To compare deer hunting in TX with deer hunting anywhere else, is quite often, a mistake. My good friend, Mr. Weishun and I have had many discussions along these lines. I know of nowhere else where scouting is a matter of three components-the sendero, the feeder and the pear burner. (That is a joke, btw.) The first lease I was ever on, 1959, cost $100 a gun and that included the landowner putting out corn for us. We were instructed to shoot spikes and three-pointers, everything else had to have eight points. We could also kill two does and two turkeys. Lease came with a camp house. At the time, $100 was pretty steep considering you could day-hunt some pretty good places for $10. Back then, I too, might use phrases like "my deer" or "the company's deer". Since then, I have learned that unless you bought them and bred them behind a high fence, (not legal in most states,), you don't own them. One place I worked for many years,composed of just over 21,000 acres and not in TX, had some pretty stiff rules. Bucks must have at least eight points and a minimum of 16" inside spread. Sub-standard cost you $500, spikes and buttons cost $200. Guides listened for and counted shots, very little lying to avoid fines cause we usually could find them. Great management for closely controlled private land but not high fence by any means. And yes, the neighbors did shoot some of "our deer". And we shot some of "theirs". We took a maximum of 34-hunters for a three-day hunt and stayed booked up with a waiting list. Had over 400-stands and about 150-food plots. No feeding or baiting, mostly swamp and clearcut.
Never hunted behind a high fence and have no immediate plans to do so. That said, I can't say it will never happen. Not a fan at all of the small enclosure, put and take hunts many are describing above....but if I ever stumbled across (i.e. haven't been looking) a high fenced Texas ranch large enough (without partitions) to sustain a resident deer herd...it could happen?
I met Mr. Weishun, years ago at a deer show....Great guy, knew all about pistol hunting, very experienced, nice guy,,,,,, he talked deer hunting,,,,, I told him about the big woods of the Great Lakes, he said, he would not even know, where to start......
he also said, that deer hunting in Texas, is another world, not remotely what it was in my country,,,,,,
Well if you're going to shoot a HF deer, long arm it and try and pass it off as a wild kill while wearing a vest with your own name on it for the camera that kind of says something to me. Too bad, cause I used to enjoy stuff he put out many moons ago when it was VHS. I guess pressure to produce gets to a lot of people.
LOL-APauls, well, there is that. :)
Just wondering is baiting any different than HF hunting? To me it's about the same.
Mexican border, HF... Cant get out.
I'm always amused when folks stiff arm their bucks for the camera. When the deer is accurately photographed, it is most often interesting how un-impressive the rack really is. Either that, or most hunters have really small heads and big hands.
Canned Hunt, no matter how big the area is it's still enclosed.
I live in Texas and public land is less than 5%. When I drive through the state I see high fence on many properties, it just seems to be the way it is. I don't normally hunt down here, too expensive, and I don't like the high fence. I have plenty of hog hunts free on a friends property, and can always get day leases for Turkeys. When I do deer, it's always up north in Nebraska or Illinois, and I have had plenty of trips to Idaho, Utah and New Mexico for Mule Deer and Elk. Hunting down here was a shock to me when I first did it. When I first moved down here from Washington State and went hunting I was dropped off in a box blind and and told to watch out in front of the blind. I'd never seen a deer feeder before and didn't even know what it was until it went off, about 15 seconds later the hoofs came pounding in. I wasn't exactly sure what to do, but didn't shoot any because I didn't think it would be legal. That evening they told me that was just how hunting was done in Texas... Not exactly a fan, but it is what it is. John
Hunting and fishing today is very artificial in many areas. Trout and many other fish are basically artificially raised and stocked for your enjoyment and some game animals are manipulated by APR's, minimums, etc. The "wilderness" has been removed from the experience in many instances, not all, but many. The high fence is just another dimension of what "hunters" are willing to spend money on. Hunting is not what it once was, and will never completely recover. We live in a liberal " hand it to me" society.
It's amazing to me that this kind of "killing" would do anything for anybody. Guess it says something about our modern society in a way.
You see it all over africa but like in texas most is so thick you couldn't see the fence.In africa they say it's not to keep the animals in,its to keep the people out.Alot the same way in Texas.Most deer never travel 10000 acres so what difference does it make
I can assure you almost all the HF tracts in TX are way less than 10,000 acres.
My guess on the average would be 400. Lots and lots under 200. Many more or less “canned shoot” operations.
The HF operations are not the concern, it is all the "hunters" who enable their existence. Personally, I could care less what one does. True whitetail deer hunting culture began to die many years ago, and accelerates the decline yearly.