That said, modern wheel-bows store & deliver so much more energy than any Stickbow ever could that they open up opportunities on shot angles that have been all but Taboo for centuries. If you don’t compromise your penetration with a high-resistance BH design, anyway.
But as I’m sure you know, nobody ever made a “bad” shot on YouTube.
If I were you, I would not revise my standards of Good Judgment.
They both preached close shots and a sharp, fixed blade broadhead. Since their education, I've shot 2 animals with a frontal. Both with spectacular results.
I switched back and forth from trad bows to compounds up through 2010. And, never hesitated to take the shot from the ground, when conditions were favorable. Meaning close and on an unalarmed deer.
I stayed with traditional equipment from 2010 to 2018. I never took the frontal shot because I went to wood arrows most of the time. I tried a slightly quartering to and broke the broadhead off in the knuckle of the shoulder blade and leg bone. So, I knew that was going to be a factor every time with a wood shaft. So, I stopped taking them.
I’ve alternated a compound back into the mix and I’ve taken several deer with frontals or quartering to since then. I killed everyone dead. Quickly. But, my penetration wasn’t there due to a light arrow of 430 grains. In comparison to my older weight of 525 with xx78’s.
I hunt on the ground a lot sneaking around. So, you take what you get if there’s an opportunity. Or, you’d rarely get any meat.
I told you all that to say, while I understand your feelings, I don’t share them. And, I’m not a you tube video maker either. I’m just a fella that likes to hunt and kill stuff. So, I learn what my equipment can do, then use it accordingly.
Congrats on the rebirth. Good luck and God Bless.
Not everybody has the ability to see/think in 3 dimensions, so a slam-dunk for one is a disaster in the making, depending on the shooter.
I passed up about a 5-yard frontal on a bull maybe my second season. I was hitting tennis balls routinely at that point at 30-45, so maybe I should’ve taken that one. But he walked right past me a minute later, so sometimes patience will pay off...
This has been debated a million times on bowsite over the past couple decades. Mike, please explain to everyone how that "is a fact". I wouldn't think such an obvious fact would have so many successful hunters totally disagree with you! Also, I realize this is the internet, but simply because someone firmly believes something doesn't make it a fact.
Being able to "see the internal anatomy" from any angle, is a big plus !
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but please don't try to pass off that opinion as fact. It is not. As other have said, I'll take a 20yd and under frontal shot over a 40yd broadhead shot any day. If someone is uncomfortable taking a frontal shot, then they definitely should not take that shot. However, if someone isn't capable of maintaining their composure and executing the shot to the extent they can keep their arrow in a grapefruit -sized target under 20yds, then I'd question if they could execute their shot any better on a basketball-sized target at 40yds. I've lost track over the years about how many threads have been started with the same theme: "I hit a _____ (fill in the blank) and I can't find him/her. No blood or anything. It was a broadside shot and I hit him/her perfectly".
Things can go south after a shot whether it's frontal, broadside, or quartering. No shot angle is exempt. It's our responsibility as hunters to take only high percentage shots, those that we have supreme confidence in executing. There are certain shots, whether it's shot angle, distance, etc, that most would agree are low percentage, unethical, or whatever other word you want to use. A close-range frontal shot is not any of those, and have been shown to be tremendously effective by many experienced bowhunters over many, many years.
The last thing I would do is try to convince everyone that a close-range frontal is a great shot for everyone, but for those that are fully capable of maintaining their composure to execute that shot, it is a great shot. What Brotsky posted is 100% spot-on..."It's just another angle into the bread basket. It's up to the individual archer to know what's within their ability to pull off".
I should add a caveat. My experience is based on elk and moose and sometime I take for granted that's understood. On other species, my opinion may very well differ. Taking a 20yd frontal on a tightly wound WT or Coues is an entirely different animal, literally and figuratively.
You’ve gotta get past those damn ribs. If you manage dead-center, you miss ‘em all; anywhere else, they line up like a picket fence. Broadside, you can occasionally get through without clipping ANY of them, from an angle closer to head on, at some point do you have to clip through just about ALL of them. Or at least three or four anyway… And you have to cut through on the deep section, rather than the shallow; so you have to get through about 2X the “depth” of each one. And at that rate, just the orientation of the blades can translate into a pretty huge difference in how much resistance to penetration your arrow will encounter and just striking a few mm to one side or the other on a single rib can send your arrow deep into the chest or perhaps send it sliding along the outside of the ribcage all the way down.
How big a deal those considerations turn out to be will vary depending on whether you’re shooting a Stickbow, a compound, or a crossbow, because KE.
But in the past have shot compound setups that blow through both shoulders with ease. And was not afraid of any deer angle.
If you don’t have faith in your setup or shooting ability to shoot a an elk chest on at 5 yards, that is not definitely not a good shot for YOU.
Something to consider is if an elk is facing you directly straight on and you miss left or right and fail to penetrate the ribcage, the wound will most likely be non-fatal. If you miss left or right on a broadside elk there's a chance you'll hit guts which would be fatal but very difficult to recover. You'll never hit guts on a full frontal shot without passing through vital organs and/or vessels first.
There are a whole bunch of goodies the arrow has to go through to get to that one lung on a frontal.
No personal insult meant here but I’m not sure that anyone who disagrees with what I wrote even read it?!
I said, “A head on or quartering towards you shot is simply a riskier shot to take than a broadside or quartering away shot. That’s a fact. If you think you are good enough, or close enough, to pull it off go for it but don’t pretend it’s somehow a better shot position than broadside?!”
I never said you can’t kill animals with a frontal shot. Of course you can. I’ve done it myself several times. But do you really think it’s BETTER to have a frontal shot?! I do agree that at 15 yds a frontal shot might be better than a 35 or longer broadside shot but at the same distance a frontal is better?! You would rather have an elk facing you than turned broadside?! Really?
Everyone’s close kill shot stories here illustrate my point perfectly, it’s a RISKIER shot so only do it up close.
While thinking of it, who wouldn’t desire a full frontal to broadside or quartering away anyway?
I’ve shot a pretty good amount of animals with my bow, and the amount I have shot with a frontal is very very very small.
It seems like the most common scenario a see on Bowsite is guys calling elk
I’m lucky to always be elk hunting with a buddy. We always set up so the elk is being called PAST the shooter, not TO the shooter. We want the elk to walk Past the shooter 20-30 yards away depending how thick it is. Where we hunt is thick crap, and this nearly alway provides the shooter a broadside or 1/4 away shot under 30 yards. Calling the bulls in like this pretty much eliminates the frontal shot scenario. We also get shots at a pretty high percentage of the bulls that get into bow range since they aren’t even looking in direction of the shooter. If you are calling the bull TO the shooter, you have a lot higher chance of frontal shots, and getting busted.
It seems like a huge majority of encounters where I think a frontal may be a possibility, in the end the angles aren’t right and I end up passing on the shot.
If you know how to shoot well, and you know animal anatomy well, it is definitely a very effective lethal shot.
If your not feeling 100 percent confidence in your self it’s a great shot to pass on, just like any other shot!
Folks not seeing or just plain ignoring history? These guys named Hill and Bear and dozens of other beginning from the days of Pope and Young? Even further back, gut shots were preferred by native Americans as tied on stone heads don't do well on even ribs. They knew the animal would most often quickly lay down and die in short enough time. They had lots of time....
Frontals aren't aiming for lungs, you're aiming for the bundle of vessels over the heart. It's what I'm aiming for even a broadside or quartering away. WRT angles alone, there are some angles I won't take given they are hidden by either heavy bone or feet of tissue. But not many.....
As with all shots..... you have to make the shot. As with ANY shot, if you can't, don't shoot. Butch up a broadside shot.... it's still a butched up shot. Been on tons of "I hit him perfect!" trails..... broadside and unrecovered. Do you blame the angle taken? Or the shot? Personally I prefer "must have hit a stick...."
Pie plates are for baking pies..... not determining how far you can shoot, that it's a good shot to take or if you are "proficient" with sharp sticks. Make the flippin' shot.... or as Chevy Chase would say, be the arrow....
Up until a few years ago, I wouldn’t have even considered taking a frontal shot on an animal, but after reading several credible and successful bowsiters: BB, Big Dan, Cheesehead Mike, etc, and seeing their (consistent) results with it, I’ve changed my mind on using it in the right situation. So far, I’ve only taken it once on a critter, but it was deadly.
No different than anything else here: you make a general observation and somebody is bound to go out of his way to take it personally and get “butt hurt” over it. (I’m not really certain exactly what that means, but I gather it’s a bad thing! ;) )
How many of us have shot at a broadside animal and had it take a step just as we shot and ended up hitting farther back than we intended? I'm guessing a few of us, me included. If you're taking a frontal shot and the animal happens to take a step it's usually stepping closer to you and at about 20 yards or less it won't change where your arrow impacts very much. In my experience with frontal shots, I think all but one was locked up standing perfectly still looking at me. One advantage of a frontal shot may be that you don't have to swing your bow and try to follow them or stop them. If you're at full draw and they're walking straight at you, you can hold your pin right on them until they stop or run you over.
For me personally it's a lot more stressful when a bull is walking past me in the timber and I'm trying to pick out a shooting lane and figuring out when to stop him for a broadside shot.
I'd actually rather have a bull walking straight at me. I just draw and hold until it gets within 20 yards and it sees me and stops.
I'm not trying to talk anybody into the frontal shot if you're not comfortable with it but it has worked for me and it's probably more common when you hunt solo.