California Poachers, Name Familiar?
Mule Deer
Man, I learned so much from those guys about Turkey hunting. Bummer of an article, wish them the best.
what's shameful is government overreach here's a quote from the article ''Many hunters snap a photo with their kill just before they tag it, even though it’s technically a crime under the state’s strict rules.
Stone’s attorney, Holbus, said that’s what his client did when he posed for the cameras. He tagged the bucks moments later before they were moved from the site, Holbus said.
But for Moskat, it was a sign that Stone and his hunting partner were willing to bend or break the state’s hunting rules. He used it as his first example in his affidavit to convince the judge that he had probable cause to conduct his search.''
They attached tracking devices to their pickup trucks and followed them with airplanes all based on a picture that didn't show a tag in it. seems like an awful lot of resources dedicated to this, almost feels like it was a personal thing.
FBI should hire these wildlife guys to investigate a number of open cases including Hunter’s laptop!
The other side of the story is in the "Get it out" thread...
Dl did you not see my post with that same link in it?
https://forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/thread.cfm?threadid=492868&messages=49&forum=36
I had a friend that had a similar thing done to him. They tried to charge him with felonies. He was told by wardens that the only people that have all kinds of peoples pictures of game are demented or poachers. The interesting thing is people on here said that there was more to the story or the wardens wouldn’t have followed him. I wonder what all the bait was for?
Seems to me there’s some bait being laid down in this thread DL.
And all the certainty by the “law”, expressed in the article led to a technical pile of ?????? And two men’s reputation are being questioned and slandered over this? Lots if guarantees and insinuation by the game department to end up only to settle for this outcome.
Government and education sectors have survived for decades on tenure. No results necessary. That’s why stuff like this happens. When you don’t have to be or do right, you can do what you want with no regards.
I hope the officers, their bosses, and the issuing judge gets fired.
Are you kidding me?
I hope I'm never accused of something publicly. Seeing as one is automatically guilty.
Anyone who reads this needs to look beyond what these guys did, that this article is an anti hunting, specifically anti “trophy” hunting push by California along with the federal Government. The amount of resources they put towards it is ridiculous. Mentioning Ted Nugent in it is trying to throw him under the poacher bus too since he is an unapologetic well known hunter. They want to smear anyone who is an outspoken hunter, especially anyone who is gaining any fame from it. Have you heard what the federal government has done in pursuing the Bowmar’s? Way, way out of proportion to any harm they might have even done. Even the detailed extent of this article alone, it reads like a mass murder crime novel! The radical left is after us hunters hard and the main stream media is fully on board!
It really bothers me that the officers said that photos of an animal without a tag attached to the antlers raised a red flag that the hunter was probably a poacher. I live & hunt in California & always punch & fill out the tag right away & attach it to the animal if I decide to move the critter for photos. I remove the tag during the photo session & stick the tag in my pocket or even inside the ear. Wardens will need bigger ticket books if they write tickets for all photos without a visible tag on the antlers. It looked to me like jealousy raised it's ugly head & guys probably close to Chris & Joe might have started this entire sting operation. Too bad all the money & manpower would be used to ruin a couple guys lives when real criminals are going unchecked!
"I hope I'm never accused of something publicly. Seeing as one is automatically guilty."
Ain't that the truth. Many years ago a good friend/hunting partner killed a giant buck on property he owns in NorCal. He and his wife made a weekend trip to plan and she was actually the one who spotted it. That buck had a similar antler characteristic (kicker with a kicker) to one that had been poached ~40 miles away and that was known to a lot of local hunters/photographers. Mind you, my friend's buck was ~18" inside spread and the poached buck was 22-23" inside. No one who knows anything about deer would confuse the two.
But a guy with a blacktail website and a buddy that is a game warden apparently got jealous.
Even though I was not there when the buck was killed, I was questioned and threatened with legal action over a validation technicality on a buck I had killed earlier in the season (read the link for who can validate a deer tag, you can found in violation if DFW can prove you drive past even one before having your tag validated). Moreover I was told I couldn't talk to my buddy until he was cleared. They even went to the taxidermist and got DNA from the cape.
Long story short, nothing ever came of it, but there were lots of threats.
But the salient point is that was all started based on an accusation by 1 person with a grudge.
Matt....I remember when all that happened. Kind of crazy. The other thing that bothered me in the Sac Bee's article was the location of kill on the tag. It says nearest landmark which is pretty vague info. 1 mile South of Baldy Lookout or Cherry Creek used to be fine. I guess eventually California will want GPS coordinates to be legal. You also have to list the county, date & time.
That is a perversion of justice. Whoever signed those search warrants shouldn't have a job anymore.
Drnaln.....When I lived and hunted in Maryland....you had to check in your deer kill. You had to list date, method, unit and sex. Once done, you got a confirmation number that you had to log on your harvest card that had to be kept in your possession. I understand that is how the bios can track deer harvest totals and trends. They can use that to set quotas if needed. The CO's can use it to track bag limits. At that time, Maryland had the earn-a-buck rule in place. You had to kill two does before you could kill a 2nd buck. Folks would check in a phantom doe(s), get a confirmation number(s) and then go out and kill the 2nd buck without truly killing the two does first.
Sounds like tens of thousands of dollars was spent on this case. Did they have to justify the type/numberof charges to justify what sounds like 100's of hours and $$ on the case? What would have been said/happen if after all that money spend and they could not find anything to charge them with? There's two sides to every story, I'm still undecided on this one.
JL...I don't mind filling out a tag & finding someone to validate the tag. I've had to have that done in California for 55 years. We also have to file a report online after we harvest a critter or even if we don't hunt. That doesn't even bother me except my Grandson forgot & I had to pay his penalty the next year when buying his deer tag. What does bother me is the assumption you are a poacher because your tag isn't visible on the antlers in a photo. That's real stretch of the law. We also have to fill out a Declaration Entry Permit before bringing an animal from another state across the border. We need to have those permits with us & stop at the border & fill it out no matter what kind of road we enter California on.
Hit piece, plain and simple...
The elephant in the room question....was illegal baiting taking place? That is a yes or no answer deal.
The other side of that......the amount of resources, time, money and man-hours expended by the State of Cali and small/minor infractions is all they have to show for it??? I could see all the effort/expense if it was some type of highly organized, inter-state criminal poaching ring being investigated....based on the article....I don't see it in this case. This might be a good case for the Cali IG or some other Internal Affairs folks (or politicos) to come in and investigate the investigators...including the prosecutors.
Sorry I hadn’t read Joe’s post.
You would think the law enforcement involved would be shamed into retirement
This would be very similar to having a multi year investigation into someone thinking they are going to be the next el Chappo drug trafficking kingpin. After many man hours of surveillance, Flying around in airplanes watching, tracking every move with gps on vehicles, placing cameras where they go, and taking photos of them , you finally bust them. You allude to the fact that you know they are trafficking massive amounts of drugs, and it’s backed up by all the evidence you have collected. Then you make a plea bargain with them. You tell the defendant if you admit that this is an illegal marijuana joint in this photo, and not a cigarette well drop all the massive drug trafficking charges we have you dead to rights on.
What a joke
Drnaln.....IMO...smart poachers do not poach a deer and then put hero pics online for everyone to see. Not putting a tag on a deer when doing the hero shot is not what I would consider "poaching" and I agree with you on that. That appears to be an incorrect assumption the investigating game warden made. He could have done that in a "gotcha" attempt to help justify any search warrant requests to the judge. Kinda sounds like the recent FISA abuses made by the FBI.
Seems like many people making assumptions (pro and against) with little to no facts, especially with all the time and effort that was used. All the accusations of wrong doing without a single conviction is troublesome for me. A plea bargain to a lessor charge tells me the state couldn’t prove their case, or at the very least questioned a conviction. I for one am not that quick to judge.
DJ
It’s Kalifornia, what else should we expect ?
I also think it was a lot of resources into some minor violations.
Seems to me that they were hunting over bait at least. That is illegal and blatant disregard for the laws. This is enough to "burn them down" in my opinion. It is a pretty big violation. Possibly trespassing as well. How can some of you defend these actions? what if they were trespassing and/or baiting illegally on YOUR property to kill huge bucks?
My guess is that some of us can deny the allegations because of the character that the two people in question have shown here over the years not just in their continual posting of high character and selflessness in the woods but in the many experiences that random bowsiters have been lucky enough to be part of with the two guys. In addition to that, one of them started a thread yesterday to get his side of the story out and it seems as if many of you have not took the time to read that and habe looked at that side of things. You’re allowing the media to shape your thoughts. How can some of you defend that action? Especially today....
"My guess is that some of us can deny the allegations because of the character that the two people in question have shown here over the years not just in their continual posting of high character and selflessness in the woods but in the many experiences that random bowsiters I have been lucky enough to be part of with the two guys. In addition to that, one of them started a thread yesterday to get his side of the story out and it seems as if many of you have not took the time to read that and habe looked at that side of things. You’re allowing the media to shape your thoughts. How can some of you defend that action? Especially today...."
I Just found and read trkyslyr's post. It does appear that at least may not have been guilty of many of the charges, and was not convicted. The evidence does seem to show that the other participant was likely guilty of more , and was charged as such. If he was guilty, then a MUCH heavier fine should have been levied. If not, then drop all charges. dont just settle for a tiny fine and then do nothing.
Every game warden show I’ve watched the wardens stake out the baited spot and catch them in the act and use aircraft, dna, search warrants etc that is just rediculous for a baiting fine.
I've going to bring a something that happened to me many years back. This changed the way I hunted for years and I stopped hunting this area because of it.
Years back I was turkey hunting (fall) I was walking over a hill in a field and jumped a bunch of turkey. The turkeys flew down the hill to a flat area with pines trees, about 400 yards. so I made my way to where the bird flew, setup and called a bird in and killed one. I hung the bird in a tree and skinned it. Walking back up to the truck I had to kinda walk by the farmers barn so I stopped in to chat. I was there maybe a hour, it got dark so I left the barn and walked up to my truck. I got to my truck put my previously unloaded gun in it case and my tagged turkey that was in a white kitchen trash bag in the truck. I shut the back door and turned to walk around the drive home. As soon as I turned to walk to my side of the truck a co yells conservation officer. Well I had to land back on ground before I said a word to him. The CO went in my truck got my gun took it out of the case and my tagged bird out of the bag and laid both on the ground. He interrogated me very rudely. so I asked him way he was treating me like this. His response was I'm acting guilty. So after a time interrogating me and no violations, he says I'm going to have to give you a written warning for hunting after hours, in which I had to sign and at the time was dumb enough to sign. Why you think he had me sign this written warning?? What would of happened to me instinctively hit him when he yelled out conservation offer? He was right behind me I think trying to see what I was putting in the truck. Any way I was very upset with what happened and the very next day I called the his office to chat with the head CO, left a message with I guess his secretary of why I called. Days go by no call back, so I called again. Again days, no call back. So I called and made an appointment with my local state rep who sat on the game and fishers committee. I made my appointment and told him what happened. Well a few days later he does calls me back, this is the response.. Well you didn't get a ticket and nothing really happened to you!
So basically he had me sign the hunting after hours to cover his ass for being an ass to me. I ask my shelf many of times if I should not of question him on way he was harshly verbally and that was why he had me sign it. Was he in the wrong for making out the warning ? What did it mean to me at that point or in the future as it was on my record? Our tags have the date and time of kill on them. I don't have to be out of the woods by any time. This CO was not a kid, many years as a CO.
Sounds like a typical Democrat witch hunt that ends in a plea bargain for a process crime to avoid the expensive fight. To bad Joe and Chris have been drug through the mud by others that can’t hunt.
Chris and Joe, really sorry to see this is happened to you guys. I hate to see people get crucified for something that’s not reality. This also reminds me of the saying about glass houses and stones. I doubt there’s one hunter that has ever even unkowingly violated a technicality of a game law. It’s getting to be out of hand with these laws and I believe the bureaucrats who pass them have very little understanding of what we actually do and how it all works. There’s one thing that’s even more clear to me now than it’s ever been. California is not a place I would ever want to live and this just adds to that. I feel bad for you guys that have to live there and deal with all this nonsense. I wish you guys all the best in your future endeavors.
I don’t know Chris and Joe other than from their posts and the posts of those who have hunted with them. What they were charged with seems out of character.
I don’t know if it’s legal to bait or place attractant near trail cameras in CA.
I don’t know the wardens. This investigation with airplane surveillance, gps trackers etc. seems over the top.
I think it’s easy for police officers and wardens, who deal with dirtbags daily, to suspect everyone. An associate of one of my buddies got shot twice just this morning during a traffic stop.
I think negative daily interactions can result in an assumption that everyone is guilty. And the possible relentless pursuit to “get” them... even if it means going to ridiculous ends.
“Show me the man and I will find the crime.” Lavrentiy Beria Head of the Soviet NKVD
Another reason I will no longer post hunting pictures on social media.
I have read both threads and the article and other info I found on the net. My only issue is if it was me I would have not plead to anything!! If I am innocent and I know it, I fight to the bitter end to clear my name. Pleading guilty when in fact if I was innocent would never happen. I understand about dragging your family through things and the money side of the issue but again, if I did not do anything wrong I stand my ground no matter what. I should add I believe what these two guys did was not out of the ordinary and the game wardens involved were just over the top, maybe from jealously or their egos were hurt. Whatever the reason it was a waste of tax payers money for a conviction on a minor offense. Shawn
I have no idea who the charged hunters are. I learned several things from this thread. (1). Illegal baiting is a minor offense and should not be prosecuted. (2) When you have surveillance pictures of the charged person carrying a backpack full of bait to their hunting site, it constitutes “entrapment.” (3). It is a waste of government money to investigate and charge people for such a “minor violation” when it involves people that you like. I wonder how local hunters who follow the law feel about magnificent animals being taken from their hunting area by people blatantly violating the law?
Was a time I had some trust, some faith in the powers that be. These last few years have been very eye opening.... or maybe I was just naive. From our own FBI fabricating cases for personal/political reasons to DA's and prosecutors either covering up and sweeping crimes under the rug for some and pushing things such as murder/terroristic threatening charges in self defense cases or even murder in cases of drug overdose.... Far worse are the Cooperate Media when joined with these same political/ideological forces. I have lost all faith as they will lie right to your face with no shame. Right, wrong, facts, logic no longer matter. It's about vendettas brought forth for a capitol C "Cause". They are "justified" in what they do because they are convinced they are righteous. Non-believers must be..... eliminated.....
I don't know how you could read this and not come away feeling the writers and likely the department themselves have bias against hunters, even a vendetta of sorts based on anti-hunting. We even heard from hunters themselves how "trophy hunters are either criminals or will soon be criminals...."
I believe Chris’s story but Joe, I think they bagged red handed. Sorry but unless he comes back on Bowsite and tells his story that’s not a good sign.
Ollie - I did not see where it was stated that there were surveillance pictures of a charged person carrying a backpack full of bait to their hunting site.
With regard to illegal baiting, I saw in the article that they found baited stands in their hunting “area”. Is their hunting area public ground? We’re those their stands?
I join some friends for the gun deer hunt in Northern Wisconsin. We hunt public land as well as my buddy’s property. We encounter oversized, illegal bait piles near stands “in our hunt area”. They aren’t ours.
I saw nothing in the article that despite the surveillance, gps tracking and DNA tests... nowhere was it directly stated that those stands were theirs. The article only states that there were illegal, baited stands in their hunt area.
There are an awful lot of guys that I know that have illegally baited stands in their “hunt areas” that belong to someone else. They aren’t really happy about the illegal baiting and report them. If they miss one or don’t report it, should they be prosecuted?
The article talks about mineral licks, bales of feed, half buried buckets and bird feeders visible from a neighboring property. Yet it states that it could not be determined if any hunting occurred there. Why mention the bird feeders? Are there any domestic animals on the property? Is it illegal to place bait or attractants near a trail camera? With planes, gps trackers, cameras on driveways monitoring coming and going and other surveillance, they couldn’t determine if hunting occurred on the property?
Please don’t equate people who have reasonable, logical questions and reserve their judgment with someone who is dismissive of the law.
Sorry. I don’t ascribe to “It was in the paper. It must be true!”
And the article did not even state that the baited stands were theirs. Or that they were observed hunting over bait during extensive surveillance. In spite of documented bait sites and stands and gps trackers and planes. All that effort and expense and time and no one was observed hunting over bait? Only that the wardens “suspected“ that the deer were killed over bait.
I don’t know Chris and Joe. I’ve enjoyed their posts. I enjoy the posts of guys who’ve hunted with them with kids. Those guys have expressed that they think highly of Chris and Joe and observed their behavior in the field first hand.
If they were in the wrong, I’ll be a little disappointed.
I’m not ready to join an internet lynch mob.
Yup it does suck to not know the facts but if I was innocent I’d probably jump on here quick to give everyone a heads up. We haven’t heard from Joe and why was he fined way more then Chris and has two counts of baiting? Would be nice to know whole story. All I really want to know is if they were active bait sites in season and if they were found to be at their stands.
This was a BS case, a waste of funds and manpower. As a retired federal Leo, I can tell you that based on the article, if that was the evidence used for warrants, the investigators a$$ would have been ripped apart, not only by the judge that would have refused to sign the warrants, bur any supervisor worth his salt. I can also tell you that taking a plea doesn't necessarily mean that you are guilty. It could simply mean that you plead to misdemeanors in order to bring closure and move on. With them being Leo's, I'd bet that their employers recommended pleading and taking their punishment and moving on. One other thing to mention is that if they were hunting public land, entrapment in this case could have resulted from threw wardens knowing baiting was taking place at a location, not knowing who placed the bait, and not notifying the public who might be in the area of the bait. If "feeding large wildlife is illegal in California" how many campers, hikers, birdwatchers, etc were within the 400 yards (?) Of the bait and not charged???
Orionsbrother- thanks for taking the time to put into words, I agree 100% with what you said. Too many people make assumptions that may not be proven as fact. I’m not sure if I was innocent I’d come on here to defend myself, some of you guys jump to conclusions without knowing the facts. I don’t know either of these guys personally and have no idea what is true or not but i won’t speculate on charges that couldn’t be proven.
DJ
Poachers gonna poach. No sympathy for law breaking game thieves. Don’t break the law and you don’t have to worry FFS! How hard is that?
If you didnt see the latest info on the other thread, any of yall defenders need to go read it. Chris and Joe do appear to be shitbird poachers, regardless of their defense story. With that kind of evidence, its a pretty damn sorry justice system that didnt convict them of more serious game violations.
Is it me, or a lot of new handles on here all of a sudden....Things that make you go hmmm!
One thing is for sure, and that is the truth will not be uncovered via the internet!!!!!!!!!! As you get older, you realize that there are more than 2 sides to every story. Both sides of this story seem to have some strange things going on. No winners here that I see.
Bingo KY EyeBow. There is a big ole rat to smell here. Just hard to tell where it's coming from!!!
KHNC- what thread are you referring to? I haven’t seen anything new besides the article.
DJ
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20533955-19sw1353-2-1#document/p37/a2025579
Court Documents with photo evidence here.
Hey Forrest link was “not found”.
...and from California. Weird.
Read through the whole report they sure look guilty to me and with no doubt. No wonder they pled no contest. Don’t get me wrong not the crime of the century but just admit your guilt and move on and don’t come up with lame stories.
Try this link. I'm not sure about trying to post links.
Not the crime of the century for sure, but these guys are pulling the wool over some your eyes too. They were blatantly baiting deer. It is illegal in CA. Any "elite" or "professional" hunter should know the laws. I would bet these two knew what they were doing was illegal. Didn't stop them from doing it.
Over zealous wardens? Maybe. Jealous hunters/property owners? Sure. But these two appear to definitely be poachers even if the judge didn't want to push it.
In my opinion they should lose hunting privilege's for a couple years so they can learn a lesson.
Don't misinterpret my above statements. They ste not intended to defend or convict. My statements speak directly to the evidence used, lack of evidence, and vague identification of probable cause used to obtain the warrant. What was the basis for the Landowners statement? In addition, The CO violated the defendants right to privacy of curtilage and used that violation to obtain a warrant.
Real warrior it sure didn’t look like lack of evidence more like damning evidence
RW sez......."The CO violated the defendants right to privacy of curtilage and used that violation to obtain a warrant."
I had to look up the word curtilage as I didn't know what it meant. Can you explain how that works in this case and what you think the warden may have done wrong? Thanks....
He stated that he viewed a single family home on a 1 acre lot. Anything surrounding the dwelling that is used for daily activities is considered curtilage ana is protected by the 4th amendment. It was further based on game wardens placing surveillance on "open fields" which were declared to have no right to privacy but that curtilage does. Because he viewed the single family dwelling and the small lot surrounding the dwelling, it is considered a warrantless search. In addition anything that he saw during the violation of the 4th amendment, warrantless search could not be considered evidence. Also there are no laws against bird feeders and mineral for small game and non game in California. Turkeys are considered upland game in California and are not big game, therefore the turkeys eating at the bird feeder was not a violation.
I wonder how of you all would react if someone baited your big buck off of your property and shot it. Investigation sounds like a little over the top but if you want to be a social media hero you have to face social media scrutiny. Just the way it is.
RW....why doesn't the Plain View Doctrine apply to what the warden did?
Spike78, what was the damning part, i.e., substantiated evidence provided by the adjoining landowner for probable cause on the initial warrant? I sure as hell didn't see that in the warrant. Also "My experience as an avid archery deer hunter".... list Moskat's "experience" that qualifies his statement as an avid archery deerhunter because I didn't see that in the initial warrant. Was he seen avid SUCCESSFUL archery deerhunter or an avid UNSUCCESSFUL deerhunter? How many years experience does he have as an "Avid archery deerhunter"? Show me the probable cause that initiated the initial warrant. A hunch, unsubstantiated statements, and anecdotes do not qualify as probable cause.
Jl, plan view doctrine only applies to a crime in progress... in plain view. If Stone was hunting over the bird feeder, that would qualify. If he had 40 acres between his house androad and only the one acre was mowed ,only the one acre mowed area around the house would be curtilage. The other 39 acres would be considered open fields and could be surveilled by plain view doctrine.
"Frater and Stone may have been the victims of their own desire, like millions of other people, to boast about their accomplishments and build their brand on social media."
I have no idea if they were guilty or not, but I can tell you it certainly sounds suspicious.
I have had way too many people in my circle of friends and some extended family members I will no longer hunt with due to the effect of antler mania and self-promotion.
I hunt hard, I hunt smart, anyone who knows me knows this. Seen my share of big guys but sometimes it just doesn't come together. It is ALWAYS easier to push the envelope and cheat, exactly what I people I longer associate myself with did and are still doing. I do not and guess what, still see my share of big guys, sometimes it comes together a lot of times it doesn't. Big antlers do some very interesting things to people, add money and fame it can be almost irresistible..I can't believe some of the people I hunted with, broke bread with fell for it. It's sad , it really is.
Again, all that is attached is the affidavit for a search warrant...It is not a crime report! Big difference and it shows a lot of overreach in G&F's case...Unless you see an actual report that was sent to the DA, you have no idea what the charges were...
RW....I do not believe a crime in progress is a required element to apply the PVD. TSA agents watching people's personal luggage at the airport pass by on the conveyor belt and often see contraband in plain view and can seize it. Another is CG aircrews doing a schedule LE patrol. They fly over numerous private recreational boats and notice one has suspected contraband in plain view on the bow or stern. Another is the CG is doing a routine safety inspection boarding and notices contraband in the cargo hold in plain view when they go down there to verify the Hull Identification Number. Both the TSA and CG are doing lawful observations in the performance of their official duties with no expectation a crime has been committed up to the point they observe the contraband in plain view.
PLM...poachers lives matter. Defund the CA fish & wildlife Dept.
The story is getting legs nationwide now. The Detroit News has it. The video in the article is interesting. The still photo's show the SWAT team doing their thing. IMO....the F&G speaker....CAPT Foy, is saying things or presenting things in a context that are not accurate in order to embellish the "trophy" aspect of the case. IMO....shooting "trophy" deer or large deer is not as rare as the context he is trying to create. Maybe he is trying to justify the large expense and methods used....I don't know?? Like someone else said previously...there are no winners in this mess.
Going nationwide most likely because they are pushing the “bad cops” angle which fits in with the liberal defund the police agenda. OB’s post on the other thread is excellent IMHO, we are all flawed.
"Cops Fined for Baiting, Poaching Trophy Deer in Sierra Foothills"
"Cops" is why this makes the news. The average Joe with a baiting citation would not be newsworthy, not sure this really is either. Remember, this is the type of liberal media some of you voted for.
The first thought that came to my mind when I read this was the case of congresswoman Omar having people blatantly harvesting ballots ( Project Veritas has this on video) And law enforcement does nothing..... but these two Deerhunters get extreme surveillance techniques?
That said , They were cheating plain and simple and they were using it to be higher profile hunters and gain sponsorships.
—
MB, I voted for Trump. Never saw ‘Liberal Media’ listed as a candidate on my ballot. Please quit trying to be divisive towards fellow hunters just because they have a different view than you.
This is clearly a news article blowing up Nationally to taint all hunters, and perhaps law enforcement. Pretty sure it is supported by the Liberal press. And divisive or not, there are some hunters here who actually voted against the hunting cause.
That aside, this press is another sad moment for hunting that could have been avoided.
Rick....I think it's legit to call out the actions of all involved on both sides in a Joe Friday approach. A fair question(s) to ask is if this case would have been handled differently in another state and in what way?
Rick....Pretty poor statement to accuse other Bowsiters of being poachers without even knowing anything about them!
He did not accuse, he "wondered". Two very different concepts.
You don't need to know much about them. They were caught red handed baiting deer. It is illegal to feed/bait deer 365 days a year for any purpose in California. For those that do know them, how many "Big Deer" have they killed away from their bait stations. That will tell the story, that and their "Big Deer" success over the next few years, when they can hunt again.
Missouri....Maybe to you it's different but "wondering" could get a guy a poke in the nose!
In Michigan bait is sold almost everywhere, including in the regions where it is illegal to bait deer. I wonder what that means?
In MO it is sold also even though you cannot put it out during season. But MO guys hunt KS as well where it is legal, and so take some with them when they go.
Others just like to observe and feed wildlife like my wife and I do on our KS residential rural development.
I have also used it once in MO after season to try and do a herd survey using bait and cameras. The CO was notified in advance and has a key to our property.
Lots of reasons a person might be in possession of baiting material that can be explained other than using it to kill over. I don’t know any more than anyone else but am wondering why with the amount of resources used they were never caught in the act they are accused of.
In Michigan...placing bait on the ground and growing bait in/from the ground are accomplishing the same thing....just different methods of baiting. One is illegal and one is legal.
Of course there are lots of reasons the lower Michigan gas stations and stores stock up on carrots, sugar beets, apples, lettuce and potatoes in the fall. The bait must be being transported to the UP or Wisconsin where baiting is legal in some counties. Why did I not think of that?
Seems to me that the guys who have questioned the case are those who have spent time with them and find it out of character or, like me, have some questions about seeming incongruity.
I tend to refrain from snap judgments. Just because it’s on the internet or there’s a court case doesn’t make it clear or true.
I would hope that if I am ever charged with something, my friends would at least say something along the lines of , “That sounds out of character for Rick.” and I certainly hope that if I tell them straight, “It didn’t happen.” that they would defend me. Without hesitation.
That loyalty and credibility is built by action over time. Would your friends be hesitant to believe something negative about you? Or just pile on instantly with no questions?
I don’t believe a picture without a tag is definitive evidence of wrongdoing.
I had a difficult tracking job on an elk in MT. Finding that bull was an immense relief. There was a series of handshakes and some recounting of the highs and lows of the bloodtrail as I pulled my kill kit out of my backpack. I was hustling because I was concerned about the meat that had gone overnight. My buddy took a couple of pictures with his phone. Tag wasn’t on the bull yet.
My buddy commented, “Don’t forget to tag it first.”
It had only been a few minutes and I hadn’t even started to break down the bull, but I remember a hunter getting cited for not tagging a bull “immediately”.
I could’ve been that guy.
Several guys have made comments about there being two sides and the truth.
We can go into Proustian, existential philosophy if you want, but I believe that there is an underlying, intrinsic truth. We may not always be able to see it for what we project upon it, but it’s worth looking hard.
As I said in another post. Choose who you want to be.
.....or they could be growing or buying their own bait in the Yoop. A novel idea....
No JL, hunters would much rather buy bait in regions where baiting is illegal, and then haul it long distances rather than purchase bait in the areas where baiting is legal. I am sure there is some crossover, but not very much.
I get your point about food plots being baiting, I am getting mine ready to plant.
When I was 17 an RCMP Special Federal Wildlife officer charged me with hunting 1 minute after legal time limit. According to my watch I had 3 minutes left to go when I shot the last duck. Facing a year’s hunting prohibition I chose to fight it in court without a lawyer I could not afford. It was a my-word-against- his case. When I crossexamined him I asked him “Do you recall telling me you wished the ducks had guns too so the playing field was even?” He hemmed and hawed until the judge got him to admit to that statement. The judge eventually found me not guilty. The cop followed me out to my truck and told me I was on his list and he would get me if it was the last thing he did. I went back in to court and told the judge about his threat. He assured me he would deal with it and immediately took the officer into an adjoining room for a private talk and when they came out that cop gave a look of pure hate I’ll never forget. I thought maybe I should go to law school until a local RCMP told me the judge was a fanatical duck hunter and that fact likely helped my case a lot!
MB,
If you admit there is some crossover, and they were never directly caught in the act, then they could be innocent by your own words. There is a reason we are innocent until proven guilty, and I see a plea, not proof.
JL, there is a reason one is considered bait by state authorities and the other is not. A person that lacks the judgment to understand the distinction ought to be dismissed from jury duty.
And the reason is one would be too hard to enforce even though its still baiting !!!!
Remember back when USFWS decided picked crop fields were "bait", and some high profile folks were busted by feds for dove hunting near a crop field? Then after the uproar, they were declared to not be bait and the interpretation was changed.
So why are we all mad?
That 2 guys got caught baiting(seems like there is plenty of legit evidence to show this) and it all stemmed from some overzealous wildlife officer who was nit picking about a trophy photo from 3 years ago?
Yeah sure nitpicking a photo is lame, but you were literally caught illegally baiting wild game. Sounds like poaching to me.
Timbr, you are also excused from jury duty.
I am passing no judgement on the case in the news, ZERO. They may or may not be guilty, that is not for me to determine and mere speculation is a waste of time and quite frankly, ignorant. Whatever the outcome, this negative publicity is a sad day for hunting and is exactly what we can expect the liberal media to continue to exploit. Hunters gave them another inch.
Guess they found out one thing...... if not convicted in court..... the internet is more than happy to oblige....
We seemingly just got done burning cities to the tune of billions.... because activist DA's and prosecutors decided they would only show the public one distorted side... kinda neglected to show us the part where a man who was supposedly MURDERED was stating he couldn't breath long before HE asked to get out of the car and to lay on the ground. A man we are now told had many times over a lethal levels of drugs in him. Coroners who say if they found that body in his apartment.... from lack of any injury and toxicology it would have been cut and dried overdose. Camera angles with a knee to the BACK and not the neck. Entire pictures change when you're actually shown and know what happened, you know, the WHOLE picture. When all the while everybody THOUGHT they knew exactly what happened, heck it was all on video, we saw it. Well, yeah.... up until other facts came out. Now their BS story, that they KNEW was not the whole story all along, is blowing up around them as the country is gonna burn again soon. Nothing in this world like Witch Hunters with a moral cause.....
The system is set up to convict of a crime when you have to have PROOF beyond reasonable doubt. The results show the people responsible to prove such charges probably didn't or couldn't. I don't have the facts, for sure. None of the mob does either, that's clear. (maybe the proven liar that posted in the other thread does... who else may have gone to that extent to lie?) But sure doesn't stop anybody , as they say haters gonna hate.....
You know who DID have the facts? The folks that dropped all charges but for a speeding ticket. And honestly not even that in much of the country. But the internet obviously knows.... maybe they should go present their proof to them...
People need to wake up. The system has not been set up based on beyond a reasonable doubt for over 40 years. It’s set up to over charge , threaten to bankrupt over legal fees to force a plea deal. It’s an fkd up perverted system. I would bet any amount that the guys faced exactly that option plus losing their careers. Maybe they were doing some thing fishy . Charge them and fine them don’t try to bankrupt them and make it impossible to feed their families.
TD, what trial have you been reading about? The same one where the Chief and multiple officers said that is not their training?
You never saw the video of him in the squad car yelling he couldn't breath? Why what could that possibly indicate? I'll give you a few seconds.....
That lethal amounts of drugs in his system were found, that he'd been admitted for an overdose earlier in the month? Is that the same chief that admitted later what he was shown was a knee in his back? Or maybe Dr. Lindsey Thomas who first stated his death was caused by what she saw of the viral video, but also noted she did not take into account the fact of the amount of fentanyl and meth in his system? Or his heart condition? She had ONLY seen the video. Then stated if found dead in his apartment the cause of death would likely be listed as overdose. The list goes on and on....
You mean you never heard any of that? Why Ike, how could that be? (Clanton , not our Ike....) Either you are being lead by the nose, allowed to see what they want you to, you know, for your own good, or..... OK, you are being lead by the nose by a bunch of folks who have convicted a man without all the evidence and facts. Actively HIDING the facts, you know, kinda like a Biden laptop or Bill's trips to Magic Island, Kids in Cages, Cuomo's Quarantine or some racist (fill in the blank....)
Don't want to hijack, link is just one of dozens you'll never see from your "most trusted sources..." Bottom line, unless you are actively looking and discriminating, you are only hearing what they want you to hear and nothing else.
Another reason there should be no baiting period!! Its not legal in Kansas, only on private, not walk in, not any public land. We have no baiting here in NY and it is sold everywhere, feeding isn;t even allowed do to EHD and CWD. After reading a lot more and seeing what occured, I believe they did well to get off for what they were accused of, probably smart to take the plea otherwise it could of been real bad!~ Shawn
TD,
I have watched it all. You are not close to being accurate of what transpired. I am worried for this country because many claiming to represent conservative thought are using the same tactics as the corrupt left. We must rise above.
This site has become a shit show!!! Judge Jury Executioners!! I bet every single one of you has has broken a game law before!!!
Correctional Officers are not cops
Thank you TD. You are spot on. The media is biased. Don Lemonaide and his white supremacist boyfriend have already told us all what to think. Ya all need to put away your klans hoods nooses etc. Bunch of privileged SOB's Let us not hijack this thread. Back to Why is CA deer tag 30 inches long and made of plastic that is very difficult if not impossible to punch out correctly.
I want to be very clear... Everyone has made mistakes! Don't be to quick judge... He came on here and tried to explain... He could have just disappeared! He had nothing to lose!
Scooby, you’re gonna make a lot of TV stars not famous. What do You think all those “late season” deer are eating in those corn fields on TV, Well the corn wagon got a little ahead of the combine!!!! Lmao
Blacktail your forgot to mention dont get it near heat or leave it on your dash on a hot day. Then you have a 30” black tag.
Thanks scar finga. We should all follow the rules they we want and skirt the ones that we don’t like. And than throw shade on the game wardens for busting us because we don’t agree with the rules anyway. And no not everyone is a poacher or violates game laws.
" many claiming to represent conservative thought are using the same tactics as the corrupt left"
haha, good stuff! but for future reference, please use "identify as" instead of "claim", thank you
also, is there another type of left?
Baiting always makes hunting look bad.
DNEWER.
I am against violating game laws and poaching. He came on here and openly explained what happened! I was just saying that everyone makes mistakes, which he admitted to!
Why crucify the guy?
It’s common to criminalize another while vindicating ourselves. Some people really enjoy it. They also have never experienced the shoes of another.
Im not weighing in on degrees of guilt or lack of. I think it’s obvious I believe Chris and Joe. But, wouldn’t call for their hanging if I didn’t.
I’m also smart enough to realize that their experience could apply to anyone of us. I’ve been ticketed three times in my life. I was was vindicated for one and paid the fines on the other two when Barney fife didn’t like the way I tagged a big game animal in CO. Or, that previously reciprocal boating laws changed and I was unaware of it. I received a ticket for not having my boat license posted on the side of my boat in the state of VA.
It’d be easy to say I’m a poacher or someone who doesn’t care about the law. That’d be untrue. Aside from God first, my family second, hunting and fishing is third in line on my priority list. I’ve never knowingly broken any law except one. The tag issue. It just made more sense to me to not toss the tag into a bloody meat bag. I’ll take it as a technicality but, it doesn’t change common sense in my mind. However, I reckon I’m a poacher.
It probably wouldn’t matter that the boating violation happened before the internet. That license agents were supposed to have a copy of the fishing regulations to give with a purchased license. And, this was the first year of the change. With no way of knowing, I bought my license and went float fishing. Like I had been doing for 15 years. Only this time their were game wardens waiting on the state line to signal over unsuspecting anglers. So they could talk down to them and give them a souvenir. I’m a poacher.
The last time with a bear was so absurd. The judge stopped the case, reamed the CO’s, the prosecuting attorney, and the game department for the most invalidated and illegal ticket ever written. His words. Not mine. Yet, I still had to pay my attorneys trial fee to get it that far. Or be railroaded into two years without hunting privileges and a $2500 minimum fine.
While my case was as obvious as the nose on my face, my attorney still advised me to settle for $1000 plea bargain before trial. I elected not to and the truth prevailed. I guess I’m still a poacher though. Because a game warden twisted things to try and present that as an option.
I’m pretty sure most of us here see it like it is. While there seems to be a handful or so that doesn’t. That’s ok too. But, it’s been my experience in life that every time I’m utterly confused about so would e else predicament, it isn’t very long before I’m standing in one very similar. Remember that. Because it’s certainly the way it works.
Scar - I disagree with take that he came one here and openly explained what happened. That more than anything is what bugs me about this thing. He came on here a few hours after the Sacramento Bees article was published. Why then and not before?? I wish I saw two guys that said we made some mistakes and it won’t happen again. Instead I see two guys that are saying because we are such great hunters everyone was out to get us and expect everyone to just say ok. They come across as extremely arrogant to me.
He says this all started become neighbor accused him of trespassing. Read the document they are not accused of trespassing at all as best as I can see. The warden says the neighbor called over the baiting never says anything about trespassing. There are pages and pages of evidence they baited. From gps showing them at bait sites, warden watching them at bait sites, trail cam pics of them at baits, and caught in possession of bait. It is compelling.
Also the tagging issue - several deer never reported as required. They have 30 days to report kills, almost all are at the end of the 30 days with as vague info as possible. Why wait that long if you were not worried about it being linking to bait site?
There also the photos of them driving around with gun barrels handing out the window and people in back of trucks being driving around with guns over cab.
I am not a guy that has issues with the hunting celebrities. I do believe however once you decide you want to go done that road, you better do it by the book and if you don’t you deserve the same publicity you craved for your hunting success.
Hopefully these guys learn to do it right and have lots of great hunts in front of them. Do it for the love of hunting not for more “likes” or pro staff positions. For the record from I seen I don’t see them anywhere in the league as some poachers that we have seen in other stores. Hell in some states baiting like they were is legal. But would think they should have been more honest on what happened or just left it alone and stayed away from social media.
Good luck to both of them live and learn.
I see gun barrels out the window & in the back of trucks in California all the time. Can't have a round in the chamber but people drive around on Forest Service & BLM & private roads like that a lot. I disagree with doing it but I've never heard of a citation written for doing it. Shooting from vehicle or road gets you a ticket.
Killing many large bucks which far out-class the usual kill...for 2 men...who know and associate...and carry their success to social media is an invitation to scrutiny and suspicion. I'm not saying it's right...but I am saying it's real. It's going to happen. You'd better be squeaky clean if you hold yourself and your accomplishments up for all to admire. Social media admirers (and sponsors) will build you into a star, but then throw you into the street face-first if you let them down. It's a hard lesson that many have learned.
John, I understand, and perhaps I am mistaken... But I have been on the side of to quick to judge, and I was wrong. I have also been on the side where people where attacking me, and I was right!
Sometimes people just F up, and then they have to do the best they can.
I pray the best for everyone involved!
Sure seems like a lot of evidence against these hunters. I remember when Rancid Crabtree was busted for baiting and made some lavish and wild lies. Not sure what the real truth is but it would be hard to dispel all that evidence. If I was a betting man, I'd say they violated. But, that sure is a lot of work to bust baiters.
Stix you are in CO if that is the state your referring to your wrong. As long as there is not one chamber you are legal. It only has to be unloaded completely cased on a ATV type vehicle.
Like I said above just nothing in the chamber in California.
Crucify? You talking about crucifying. The Game wardens or the convicted game violators? Seems to me the game wardens are getting the scrutiny for piling up evidence and getting a conviction. I wouldn’t want these guys hunting adjacent to me. I’ve seen first hand how bad poachers are on areas they operate and I’ve also see. Hard working game wardens bust their ass to make a case and it get tossed in the bin with the speeding tickets because nobody gives a tip about game thievery once it gets to a certain level. Don’t pain all hunters with the brush of game violator and dismiss game violations as something that comes with the territory because it does not! I very much take offense to the wholesale acceptance of “minor” game violations. Don’t like the law? GET IT CHANGED. YOU NOR I NOR TED FREAKING NUGENT GET TO DECIDE! All I see is a couple of game violators playing the victim because they got busted and a lot of other folks who just don’t understand why the game warden did their job. Disgusting on all fronts.
A guy could at least leave the kids alone!
Hey Bigdog, perhaps you can delete your post. Take all the shots you want at the adults, but don’t post anything about someone else’s kids.
This whole thread makes me sad. Everything about it. Time for another Bowsite break..
I'm going to assume the crossbow or what looks like a crossbow doesn't have a bolt in it but appears to be pointed right at the person on the right
BirdDog, you might want to rethink that post. Leave the kids out of it.
Dnewer...
You appear to be newbie here. I don't ever recall you posting anything of significance before! Funny you show up now being so perfect and holier than all!
knock yourself out man! I am sure you have never, ever done one thing that would be a violation!
Like I said I am completely against violations, but mistakes can be made! We have all made them! I truly believe that the ones that yell the loudest usually have the most to hide!
On the flip side, I think some CO's are over zealous and have a hard on for some people, or all people! I have seen it first hand!
JMHO... Now Go AWAY!
BirdDog, I typically like you, but you just went WAY ACROSS THE LINE!!!! No Kids... EVER!
BirdDog, Do you have any proof of the BS you are spewing? WTF is wrong with you?! Never ever go after a kid! That is shitty and lower than anything he may have done!!!
This guy is the same guy posting with different chat handles after his original got banned for lying about who he was. Everyone of us who are regulars know who the regular posters are. Notice how none of the new people have any pics or anything like that in their profiles.
This guy is freaking obsessed with Joe and Chris and my recommendation to him is to step back and let it go. Reminds me of the movie the Crush.
Idyllwildarcher You state "Notice how none of the new people have any pics or anything like that in their profiles" , I've been here a long time... originally as bwhntr1 and realize that you are responding to a thread that validates why I hesitate to post any photos.
