Bowsite.com

And as embarrassing as he is, what's even more embarrassing are the sheeple that laid right down an accepted it. We're being herded into the kill pen and we just line up and follow. Sad.

We should never penalize work effort with income taxes, would love to see a consumption or VAT but those have challenges as well.

We need to focus on increasing incomes for all instead of fighting over taxes, and a complete revamp of our education system is one of the first places we should start IMO.

I can go with reduced taxes on necessities, but not zero. On everything else you decide how much in taxes you want to pay based on whether you buy or not. No cap gains or inheritance taxes, don’t penalize savings which ensures enough capital for growth. Privatize SS and have everyone control their own funds with help from planners and watch Americans embrace capitalism as their financial status improves. This is how you kill progressive nonsense.

When I started college I was clueless and it seemed to make sense to tax the rich. It did not take long to realize for to many reasons to list this does not work and hurts the lower class more.

What really stinks is everyone who supports it truly does not understand it hurts them.

Congress lowered the tax rate, Trump signed it.

I saw those polls, and even the FOX poll said the same. Scary!

That’s why I really liked Reagan as president. He used his positive charm and humor to help educate the masses against government control. And he had an influence for years after with his words while president. And that is what it will take to turn this around, a “re-education” of Americans to turn them back to market driven solutions and rejecting government.

What a missed opportunity for the last administration. Instead of the focus being on him and how unfair everyone was ( and he was right) and name calling everyone who disagreed with him which over-shadowed all of the good being done, conservatives lost the opportunity to explain why our solutions are better. And like Reagan, his words will have a far reaching impact, but in this case in a negative way by making it more difficult to get people to even listen to what we have to offer because of how turned off they are. It felt good to stick your finger in their eye, but in the long run it makes our goals that much more difficult to obtain.

If i have to pay more taxes, I should get twice the preference points on all the draws. Fair is fair.

There will never be a flat tax. Government will never allow less government.

I know it will never happen. But how is that idea not FAIR to everyone? I understand life isn't fair. And I don't live in fairytale land.

Lower income folks can receive a monthly prebate to cover purchases up to the poverty level.

See "The Fair Tax Plan".

Bake, the cancel culture woke people won't even let you live in a fairytale land if you wanted to. They want the new Snow White ride at Disneyland shut down because at the end the prince kisses his true love Snow White to wake her up, but the left said that since she was asleep she couldn't have given her consent for the kiss!

I am retiring this year and will go back to work part time to cover 2 items in the family budget

1. A "parent loan" from my sons education 2. Health care

If those two items make it on the free for everyone list I would benefit, until, the bill comes due to pay for it and taxes rise enough that I cannot afford to live on my fixed retirement income. Then I will be back to part time work again to pay the new taxes. I don't understand how I could be in a no tax income (less than 400,000) then pay sales (consumption taxes) Property taxes, income taxes, etc etc.

I just am not smart enough to put all this together.

oz

The other fix to this whole mess is to implement term limits, and make it retroactive. No more than two terms for a senator and 4 terms for a representative with not more than 12 years total, single or combined.

The basic premise behind flat tax is to replace the current "bracketed" income tax structure.

A consumption tax (Value Added Tax-VAT) is levied at each stage in supply chain (vs a sales tax which is only levied at the consumer level) See link for detailed explanation.

The problem I see with politicians who promote these solutions is they will NOT replace the existing tax structures. (That is likely in the fine print) They view them as methods to raise additional revenue and augment existing income tax or sales taxes. (IMO)

The fundamental flaw with current systems is the majority of voters whom vote for the political leadership do NOT have skin in the game. (IE Pay income tax). There is a major disconnect between those who fund a significant portion of this countries revenue (the minority) and those who do not contribute significantly to the revenue stream. Far too many people think as long as someone else pays for every proposal presented, it is a good idea. (Think evil/rich/successful) These folks cannot connect the dots. They don't realize successful people are not going to shoulder additional costs. If additional costs cannot be mitigated, the costs are passed on to consumer. (Which includes the "majority" who thought those proposals were "good ideas" because they would not be paying for them) Think student loan forgiveness, Medicare for All, Green New Deal, etc.

Uncle Joe: "Hold my beer"

Also, there will be redistricting in several 'red' states, and I'm betting the state GOP's can gerrymander with the best.

Do you even know what 'wealth managers' do?

I'm not 'jealous' of these people's money, I have my own. I do detest how they get the tax laws written for their own benefit.

If that were the case, the top 1% would be paying less of the total taxes and the difference would be made up by the improved salaries of employees. Also there would be fewer "oligarchs" writing legislation beneficial to solely to them. Every politician knows there is a six figure position waiting for them when they end their service. Do you think that effects their thinking during their tenure in office?

Flame away.

Yes, it’s competitive market driven

“Are they adding that much value to a company? “

Apparently Yes. Ask the Board(s) that hire them.

Their salaries are a drop in the bucket, compared to overall financial operating structure of a company.

It was *legal* because the tax-evading sob's WRITE THE RULES. I don't confuse 'legal' with 'right'.

first of all, the average ceo salary in the united states is about 800 grand. so unless the average employee is only making 400 bucks a year, that whole claim is total bs. if the average employee makes 30 grand, 2000 times that would be 60 million bucks. not many ceos make anywhere close to that and the ones that do are probably worth it. never let facts get in the way of a good story.

When I retired early and had to go on Obamacare, I managed my AGI to be just above poverty/Medicaid level. I got a big subsidy that made insurance nearly free, even though my actual "income" was close to $100K. I wasn't cheating; I just played by the Dems rules. Businessmen will always be smarter and one step ahead of politicians.

Pretty ironic to hear you take advantage of rules to reduce your medical costs and complain about rules that limit your ebike access and trees cut to block your access to federal land from your plush cabin. Dana is right, it’s all about me any more and forget the other guy.

If an athlete, CEO, etc. is worth the money they are paid, so be it. Full transparency though, many of these boards are populated by close associates of each other who do in fact take care of themselves. Regulations giving shareholders more say in salaries are good, as is the elimination of golden parachutes which are not offered to average workers. If CEOsare worth millions on the upside, then they receive zilch as everyone else on the downside.

As far as the tree cutting to block our access, this wasn't the result of a "rule" or "law". It was a personal vendetta by a USFS bureaucrat who has a problem with our community and our historical legal access to National Forest. Her tree cutting rampage actually violated her own USFS rules. If I did that, I'd be fined to high heaven.

Sorry Lou, that doesn't cut it for me. Conservatives, of which I am one, are constantly reminding us of living to a higher standard, that we are our brothers' keepers etc. And as Dana pointed out, today we have conservatives that are 100% out for themselves and respond to any challenges to their self serving behavior with "the rules are written that way". As someone said above, everyone can take advantage of the tax code. BS! Most don't have the monetary or political clout to influence legislators to have a tax code with thousands of pages that much of is directed to help specific individuals or causes. To believe otherwise is either ignorance, stupidity or a lack of integrity.

Doing what is right usually takes more than complying with the law. Ethics demands at least three questions, Is it Legal? Is it Balanced? How will it make me feel down the road? Too many of us are stopping with is it legal, and that is why so much of our behaviors are at odds with each other. And we even brag about when we can take advantage of something just because it is legal even though our own words betray we know it is not right.

Why not work on making the tax code balanced?

But as the great Judge Smails once said...”The world needs ditch diggers too”

Whatever they agree on for their wage is what fair is. No one is holding a gun to their head to sign the contract or work at any corporation.

“Regulations giving shareholders more say in salaries are good, as is the elimination of golden parachutes which are not offered to average workers.”

“Conservatives, of which I am one”

Dana needs to get out more “Never seen a corporation that would negotiate fairly with just one person on the floor.” He doesn’t understand how modern HR departments work. Any employee with equal tenure, ability or training is treated equally to avoid discrimination lawsuits. The employees are treated by class and not negotiated with separately in regards to wages and benefits which are one and the same. Anyone not treated the same is different in one of the elements, tenure or ability or training. It’s why the lie that women are paid less than men is a lie.

Was it legal? Yes. Was it ethical? Yes, because it was in full compliance with the intent of the law, which was to adjust rates based strictly upon AGI. No one was harmed or compromised by my decision. I didn't write the law, and those I voted for, voted against it. Was it "balanced"? Not sure what you mean by that, but considering how much I paid in income taxes as a high earner for the last 25 years of my career, compared to many others I know who are sucking off the government tit because they can, it made me feel REALLY good to get a tiny added return on my investment.

So as far as I'm concerned, it helped balance out a teeny bit of inequity in our system, where those who make poor choices in life benefit disproportionately from the hard work and risks taken by those who made good choices and are punished for it. The top 50% pay 97% of total federal income tax (according to the Tax Foundation) and the bottom 50% benefit. (Don't bring hedge fund managers into it, because they are a microscopic proportion of the overall population. And what they do is wrong if they deliberately manipulate stock prices)

Of course the tax code needs to be balanced. But as long as "tax the rich" is a mantra it will never happen. And the "tax corporations" joke. Low information voters can't grasp how that means "raise taxes on everyone". What I would love to see is wealthy liberals write a check to the IRS each year beyond what they owe after all the loopholes, since they presumably want higher taxes for everyone. But that will never happen.

When it comes to dodging taxes, 'liberal' and 'conservative' are pretty meaningless. Or D & R, red and blue. It's the same when it comes to taking campaign donations from the finance industry and defense contractors. They're all hogs at the money trough. ALL.

You and Lou are blind to the inequity in senior executive salaries. It simply is crony capitalism. You are no more conservative than I am, just one of the cronies who thinks taking care of their own is conservatism. If the CEO is worth it, pay them. When they are not, gone like any other with no exit payments.

I know some big league CEOs personally and very well, from big companies everyone knows. One was a sales guy competing with me back in the day, another was once my sales engineer. They chose that career path, and with it the sacrifices to lifestyles, family, marriage, along with extreme pressure. I chose a different path with more balance. Am I jealous of their financial success? Nope. Life is about choices.

Whenever anyone complains to me about CEO compensation, my question is, why didn't you become one, or start and build a successful business, instead of becoming a tree-trimmer, pottery maker, backhoe operator, teacher, whatever? Choices.

The market pay structure in companies is way out of whack and it’s culture thing. It’s not something the government should regulate IMO. That’s what unions use to do. I wonder which political side is against the right of employees to organize? Hmmmm…let me think.

Same approach when I was on the hiring side. Ditched all that corporate stuff for something totally different and can't say I miss much of it.

I also understand the disadvantages of unions to companies and workers in a competitive market. However, I also know most companies will do what is best for their bottom line and the top few who are getting incentive bonuses if there are no guardrails. It’s the way to system is set up. Same goes with environmental and worker safety issues. Without the threat of fines, penalties, lawsuits (punitive), etc., companies will try to get by with the bare minimum. Not all…but most. If you write laws that limit works rights to unionize, along with widespread non-prescriptive deregulation (financial, environmental, safety), then you basically take away the minimum conscience of boards, CEOs, and owners…companies. That’s why I do not support laws that take away rights for works to organize and non-prescriptive deregulation. Labor laws against unions and widespread non-specific deregulation may increase economic indices but at what costs to workers? It can’t be all one way either for the workers or companies. There’s a balance I guess.

I agree everyone needs skin in the game but if you make $30K and pay 10% in taxes (flat tax), that $3000 means a hell of a more than the $300,0000 does to someone making $3M per year. One is the difference between paying rent/mortgage and food the other is between a second lake house and new sports car. IDK…I guess I need to have a few more beers with HFW (Frank) and discuss/argue to figure out where I land on the tax issue as he is on the opposite side as me on some of this financial/tax stuff. If I open my mind to other perspectives and opinions then my stance on this issue will be more informed and solid.

I owned my own business, very successful. One of my clients was the COO of a household name Fortune 100 company. You keep proving how little you know.

And all markets are not the same. Maybe you should try an econ course and learn about different market structures. CEO salaries are decided by Boards who are often deciding salaries for their cronies or that person serves on their board. Typical crap from extreme right wing self serving folks like yourself. It is killing true conservatism.

If you are going to try and summarize what I said, get it right, OK! I said if they are worth it, pay them. I worked at GE Capital when Jack Welch reigned there, he was worth it. When they are not worth it and they are let go, no exit pay because they were let go for a reason-lack of performance. And that lack of performance most likely negatively impacted scores if not hundreds or thousands of folks who have no parachute.

And I don't want to hear the whining about how tough a life it was, like any one else they chose that life and the high pay they received at the time they made the sacrifices was a fair exchange. The "line" workers don't get to negotiate a pay package with their cronies or else we would see them do the same. This is an imperfect market and why financial regulations have tempted to mitigate some of the behavior.

When athletes don't perform, they are cut and a lot of that pay was not guaranteed. If the shareholders grant the pay package, I am fine with it. But not a board of cronies being the only ones with say.

EDIT: Will add that there is no outrage for athletes because we are the ones who support their pay by listening to, watching games, buying caps, jerseys etc. etc. When those sales go down, so will the salaries. We are probably witnessing the start of that. And we did see outrage, from you so called conservatives that complained about the NBA players getting tons of money from China. Hey boys, it's a free market both ways but once again this has nothing to do with markets, this has everything to do with extreme conservatives demanding we live our lives according to their rules, the same as the loony left does.

JMO, a valid concern maybe but not in the long run. Consumption taxes will encourage savings, but at some point the marginal utility of another dollar saved will be less than the utility gained from spending that dollar. We just purchased Robin a UTV based on exactly this. We can save more for retirement, but given all likely scenarios she will be just fine so she would rather have the UTV now to enjoy it (at age 64) than more money to leave to a cause upon her death. Most people do think this way.

Doug McMillon, the CEO of WalMart will make approximately $22.574 million this year. Crazy, right?

I just had a customer here commenting on that “inequity”.

I casually asked him how he bills out the labor for his employees and subcontractors. He proudly informed me that he bills out their labor to make $15-$20 profit on each hour that they work. He marks up materials to have 35%-40% profit.

I have no real soft spot for McMillon , but his compensation amounts to less than $10 per employee per YEAR. It’s a matter of scale.

no they didn't, your father did.

Bravo to the person who put themselves in a position to be paid so well. The company agrees or they wouldn’t pay it. Any other interpretation of that agreement is not applicable.

Don’t like it? Don’t support the corporation doing it.

My guess is the men who disapprove have never done anything but work for other people. And, certainly have no idea of what supervising and management requires in private business.

You're joking, right? This place has those in spades.

I am right now aware of one of these "separation" agreements at a very high level in a very large company. The person is being paid to leave because they took the company a good way down the drain. Responsible Boards would write compensation packages that would not pay out for lack of performance, and spell out how that performance would be measured such as ROI or stock price valuation etc. Pay them big on the upside when the organization is successful because all stakeholders win, but treat them like anyone else on the downside. Think about it, if any of us received a huge payout whether we performed or not, that creates less of an incentive for us to perform. There is a reason athlete pay/bonuses are tied to specific performance objectives in many cases.

Responsible to do this because organizations have to protect all stakeholders, not just their buddies. Again, I have no problem paying people that perform. I agreed with the above that teachers ought to be paid on performance, and fired if they don't. You all have no problem with that but when one of your rich buddies doesn't perform you now contort yourselves to find ways their golden parachutes are justified. They are not, and that you believe they are makes you nothing but a crony capitalist, not a true conservative Lou.

The only comment that I noticed was that someone stated that exit packages or golden parachutes are negotiated at hire.

He reads the wall st. Journal and tries to pretend it’s real life. Never sat on a board, never recruited a high level executive, never negotiated a high dollar comp package. I read the book” the Outpost” I earned the Medal of Honor.

The only guy here who is wanting to hold teachers to the same standards we hold executives and everyone else. Hmmm. Guys like you see and attempt to justify different standards for your buddies because you are simply arrogant, and cannot understand people don't have to have your experience to have a valid opinion. The same arrogance blocks you from understanding the majority of voters who said "no" to a second term for Trump. You actually think you know more than them and that the FF only cared about people like you and our sacred documents were written just for people like you. You keep getting it wrong, choke on that awhile Jack.

In the meantime, I will keep applying conservative principles for all people, not just those like me. Now get back to denigrating all teachers some more, it certainly makes you look like the fool you are.

You are the one who is lying and doesn’t know crap about the situation. The situation is public, reported on and I have numerous acquaintances who work there. The possible replacement just happens to be a friend. And I don’t lie, at age 62 and with my experiences I know people including my brother, a retired COO. Try getting your facts straight before issuing your proclamations, you keep looking the fool.

And you proved you are an elitist with your attitude if someone hasn’t been a senior executive, negotiated a compensation package, etc. their opinion doesn’t count. You are no different than the elitists on the left, and still don’t get the Constitution is for all Americans, just not you guys who think you are better. Wake up Trump cultists. Jack, you have the same attitude he does, you know more so there only needs to be one way communication. Start your next post, “From the desk of Jack...”. LOL.

Ryan is right, you don’t have a legitimate response to my position so attack the person.

In that light, folks like Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos are grossly under-compensated.

Go back to your extremist site where you have stated the election was stolen and never challenged your fellow whack jobs when they posted BLM infiltrators were responsible for Jan 6th. When you don’t challenge the lies your are giving your tacit approval which means you are part of it. Good thing there are teachers like me calling out whack job extremists like yourself whose vision of the way they want everyone to live has been rejected by the freedom loving masses!

And use your own standard, prove the election was stolen, prove it.

You can’t, makes you a liar. Some of you are pathetic, you have a different set of standards for yourselves than you do everyone else and too blind in your hate to see it.

Here’s an example from these latest threads...Ryan has a different view so that makes him not a hunter. What a joke that none of you address these childish attacks and debate just the views.

Maybe save a couple of years worth and finally be able to do that Stone Sheep hunt that’s on the bucket list, if Canada ever reopens ;-)

Are you a member/supporter of the teachers union? They've been lying to us for years, and they're playing politics with our kids future's over this whole covid thing. Is that why you have so much time to sit here and lecture us on the joys of liberalism? You're still getting paid, and crying for a raise while sipping margaritas in Mexico!

Unbelieveable...who's pathetic?

The problem is yours. I already said above I am not a member of the union. Joined for one semester, ran for an officer’s position and won. Forced the union to return portion of dues used for political purposes, and then resigned. Members since then have some dues refunded each year. (Little old dumb ass who doesn’t know much according to you blow hards knows enough) Don’t know what you are talking about with Ryan specifically, I must have missed something? What I have defended since I know him personally is his integrity and that he has a good heart. We disagree a lot, but do so with the ability to remain friends and cordial, something most of you here are incapable of obviously.

Started as an adjunct while working for GE Capital. Because of my reviews was offered a full time position. We had our second miscarriage and could not have children, Robin was a dental hygienist so our income was solid. Decided to teach FT because it is very enjoyable. GE asked me to stay on as a PT manager. Don’t know anyone else they ever did this for. They made an offer I could not refuse. After two years they said come back FT or that’s it. I left and shortly afterwards started my company while teaching. Still go to lunch with my boss from 30 years ago.

I am 62, in the 94 percentile of preparedness for retirement. We are way better than most, I recognize God blest us.

I don’t say this to brag, but to say you guys have proven exactly who you are, biased jerks who don’t know squat and are too stupid to know it.

And while in college I graduated from Marine Corps OCS and was offered a full ride plus income scholarship for a Masters in Econ. Tell us all again how I don’t know anything jackapoo. You are an insecure little boy.

And have an informed opinion. Quit mocking educators because you obviously didn’t pay attention when they taught logic and critical thinking.

Here’s some more for you in case you missed the above points. You and others here are ideologues. When you cannot accept someone who thinks differently, you put them in a box you understand. I am a teacher, your box is then I must be liberal. I am not. Box broken.

Box 2, no golden parachutes for executives, your box, I am jealous of others’ money. I have enough of my own. Box broken.

Box 3, I have different opinions, they cannot be from experience, but only from what I have read. Facts are, I have plenty of varied experience, some of which you and others do not.

Funny how you want to attack me with someone else’s words, I am sure the irony eludes you.

No Jack, all I am is someone who kicks bullies right where they need it. I don’t look the other way while a bunch of insecure dolts think they can get away with attacking a decent person. I am sure as an ideologue you cannot understand someone coming to the defense of another who thinks differently, so let me give you a clue...it’s simply because what our FF stood for and wrote about includes the Ryan’s of this country. You don’t get that and I am convinced never will because of extreme bias.

By the way, I don’t ever remember calling you a liar in any thread. But evidently I did. I did send you a PM owning it even though I didn’t ever remember typing it. Sorry I hurt your feelings…I didn’t realize how sensitive you were. I’ve plenty worse said about me or my family and you don’t seeing me whining our it.

I am all about meritocracies and getting paid for performance, but there is growing pay inequity in the US that I believe will be the biggest factor if/when our capitalist system is eventually undermined.

If you had a husband that was an electrician, and wife that was a teacher (or vice versa) they would probably have a household income somewhere between $150 and $200k with with wages and benefits.

Your buddies are wrong. And, so are you for even repeating it. If not for illegal immigrant workers holding hourly rates of low skilled trade workers to a minimum, even those pay rates would be well over $20 is my guess.

It’s just a guess. But, from a guy that does it in this country. Instead of drink beers and chat about it with those that don’t do either.

While I know folks on this site love their "alternate facts" and sample sizes of 2, the math is the $81K is 54% more than $53K, which validates the point made by my acquaintances.

Since you apparently are once again intent to be a wise mouth, let’s do a little figuring. You know. Common sense wise.

Teachers here are making $42,000 after three years. I can’t comment on before or how high the pay is. Because it’s a county issue. But, for working from the middle of August through the last day in May, with a Friday a month on half a day, along with 13 paid holidays a year and 10 hours of leave and sick time incurred for every pay period, with a week for thanksgiving, 7 working days for Christmas, a week on Easter, all equals 30 weeks of pay for time worked for that third year pay rate I’m no genius but, that is over a $1000 a week worked, not counting insurance and credit union, benefitted for. With almost 5 months of vacation to go with that.

Common sense tells me Either teachers in Australia are making huge coin or, you exercised poor judgement in reciting their BS. Feels good don’t it.

Your last trip to Australia was when?

hopefully not leftist tools like those that stayed behind to obfuscate and post bs 'facts'

hopefully folks looking to leave a rotting mess and contribute to a successful society and not poison it

biden is awesome, probably best president ever

Biden sucks so far for those of us that did not want higher everything. But for those socialists here, congrats on getting your guy

The link shows Oregon teachers wages as of 2016, they make more now. Below is average salaries. They also have health care and retirement packages in addition to that.

Seems like that compensation package would put a person in the middle class category for 9-10 months of work per year.

Elementary school teachers $63390

Middle school teachers $66480

High school teachers $66010

I don’t think the 2 guys from Australia have an accurate impression of those trades pay in this country. At least in my state, they are in the middle class.

There’s not really an exact definition of middle class, but I would think that would be incomes in the $60-$80k range in my state. Here in Oregon the median HOUSEHOLD income is $62k The median PER CAPITA income is $33k.

Agreed. Income is not the only reason one chooses a certain profession. At least for me, teaching returns benefits I never experienced in the corporate world.

Further, if you annualized teachers salaries for their time off, like summers, they are extremely competitive.

“When I asked them about the differences between the countries they had observed their first response was that, in Australia being a teacher or tradesman was a solid middle class job (able to buy a house, save for retirement, etc.), but those jobs were more lower middle class in the US. I am all about meritocracies and getting paid for performance, but there is growing pay inequity in the US that I believe will be the biggest factor if/when our capitalist system is eventually undermined.”

People just posted information about the places they live in America that counter what the Australian guys “learned” about America, and Matt seemed to infer he agreed with their view of America.

In the areas me and others live teachers and high skilled tradesmen are solidly in the middle or upper middle class

My daughters boyfriend makes $120 k before overtime as an iron worker @26 yo. Bought a home at 22. When he was in the apprentice program at 18 he made $60k.

The guy that pumps my septic tank just retired as a lineman making $250 k plus a year with overtime. He paid $300k to buy a septic truck and a list of names from a guy retiring from the business 5 years ago. He set his son up to run the business while he still worked. The son built the business up and they now have 10 trucks and are billing more than $5 million a year. He jokes who ever thought you could be a millionaire pumping other peoples shit. America is a horrible place we all better move to Australia.

no but people did complain about ceo pay. if being a ceo is so easy, those people should become ceos. if they want to follow their passion, they can do that too but don't whine if others dont see the same value in it.

LMAO!!!!!

Per you article, bginning teacher salaries in OR with a bachelor's degree are $36K-$51K.

"The starting full-time salary for a classroom teacher in most Australian states is between $65,000 and $70,000, based on every enterprise bargaining agreement (EBA) we examined."

WV, if my numbers ate flawed, please cited some counter examples. Just running your mouth based on what you think you know doesn't cut it.

I posted real world, real life, factual info to dispute it. And, it’s been confirmed as the case by others. I’ve already shown you your info is flawed. But, In Typical nutsack fashion, you’ll pick something and argue on it. When it’s not even the topic.

I could care less what salaries are what. But, real life in America says your point of American pay equality in the teaching and trade fields is wrong. Period. You can site all the bs you want. But, guys making the median incomes you quoted don’t drive two $40,000- $60,000 vehicles, live in $250,000 homes, while supporting a family. That’s as simple as it gets.

Have you ever asked yourself where are the tax dollars going? Why do they need to raise taxes?

IE... If taxes are able to fund all the programs(roads, bridges, SS, etc) we need while taxing 100 million people at 15%. They should also cover all those programs for 300 million people getting taxed 15%

Now, if all of a sudden those tax dollars are covering costs, you have to ask yourself "why?". The only real answer is the tax rate has been cut and/or the people being taxed 15% are making less money. That means less money is being taxed and collected. Ie... insteat of 70k on average being taxed. It's 50k. That equals a lot less tax dollars. And where is all this would be tax money if it isn't being collected by the government or paid to the working class?.... It's at the top, it's in the hands of the rich. Being hoarded. It's impossible to spend all that money in one lifetime. Shit, they even made a movie about how hard it is to actually spend 30 million in 30 days

Now add onto that all the corporate elite tax cuts for the rich. Now what option are we left with?

We now need to raise the tax % from 15% to 20%. So we can get the same tax squeeze out of the 50k$ that we were out of the 70k$

...

and there you have it. Lowering taxes on the rich, while not increasing worker wages results in even more taxes for the working class, all while getting less programs with those tax dollars.

But i know... a person flipping a burger shouldn't make as much as a skilled blue collar worker. You're right, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be making more than 15$/hr. Most of the working class is underpaid. And you've been led to believe that you need to worry about what the bottom rung makes in relation to you, instead of worrying about what you are making in relation to the top.

We went from being able to get by on one blue collar income earner to both heads of households having to work multiple jobs to just barely scrape by. Fun fact... when that one income earner lifestyle was possible, the corporate elite were being taxed at the highest levels.

Your Australian buddies made a blanket statement about the poor economic class of teachers and electricians in this country based of what they learned on their vacation here. You stated those aren’t jobs that pay enough to own a home and have a retirement.

I simply posted accurate information showing different in my state. I would assume California and Washington would have similar or higher pay scales as Oregon for the teaching and high skilled tradesmen careers.

Things could be different in the town they had a beer with a teacher in to come up with that assumption.

they are averages. Sure 66k for a teacher in state xyz... but if that is the average for the teachers who work in a major metropolitan city in state xyz like portland or sanfransico, than those are almost poverty wages. Sure 66k$ in rural alabama is great for a middle school teacher?

In sanfransico? that teacher is eating ramen and living in the bad parts of oakland for 66k, while literally teaching the future of America

Teachers are not at poverty level in the Portland Metro

Ridiculous.....

dude I was giving rough examples.

also... sanfransico https://sfgov.org/scorecards//safety-net/poverty-san-francisco#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20HUD%20defined%20%E2%80%9CLow,for%20a%20family%20of%20four.

perhaps the use of the word "poverty" was the wrong word. It's also out dated https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/poverty/news/2020/03/05/481314/poverty-line-matters-isnt-capturing-everyone/#:~:text=Despite%20being%20one%20of%20the,poverty%20line%E2%80%94is%20remarkably%20outdated.&text=In%202018%2C%20the%20poverty%20line,poverty%20rate%20was%2011.8%20percent.

since it can't possibly account for different geographic regions well(just like minimum wage can't)

You make 66k in San Fransico, you aren't sleeping in sanfransico unless you are homeless

Many places the '"average" wage qualitfies you for low income housing.

People haven’t traveled the world very much to believe that US workers are underpaid as a comparison. We don’t have a working class under paid issue we have two fundamental issues that are being ignored. 1. We shipped the majority of the living wage jobs to China, India , Vietnam Etc. Look at the last employment statistics or any for the last 20 + years most of the job growth is in the service sector , waiters and bartenders. 2. We have an education issue. We insist that everyone is equal in education instead of being realistic like say ,Australia. They test their students at every transfer point like elementary, jr high , high school. The people that don’t have an aptitude for higher education go into a vocational program. When they walk out the door they don’t have to work at McDonalds. They go into an apprenticeship program in what ever area they have aptitude. But the point is they don’t have to be trained at a basic level, they are job ready. The people that work at McDonald’s in Australia minus the handicapped , disabled Etc. are failures and deserve to be where they are. Same here with higher education. How many people were trained and ready to roll in a career straight out of high school or college? Raise your hand. Zero. That’s what I thought Take a look at the top 10 majors in Chinas universities vs US universities . 60% of the US are liberal arts ,nothing degrees, 0 LA degrees for China. We are discussing raising taxes instead of wages because we are a country that fixes the symptom not the problem. I can guarantee you what China would do in this situation they would fix the problem regardless of how it made people feel. We have lost the stomach to do what’s right and for making hard choice’s.

Median per capita income in Portland metro is $32k

Median household income in Portland metro is 63k

Average teacher pay across the entire state for a 6th grade teacher is $66480 as of 2016. You know they have had multiple cost of living raises since then.

The average pay of a 6th grade teacher as of 5 years ago is over double the average per capita income in Portland metro area.

That same average income for the 6th grade teacher is higher than the median HOUSEHOLD income in the Portland metro area.

I would venture to guess the teacher union contracts in the Portland metro area are negotiated with a higher pay then in a tiny city like madras Oregon in the country with lower cost of living.

In my zip code the median household income is $94000. Household income is everyone working over age 15 at a house.

2 houses up from me is a teacher, and 3 houses the other direction is a teacher.

Again just pushing back on the country being painted with a broad brush from a couple Australian guys impressions on vacation.

In Oregon they are dead wrong

Somehow the conversion rate got left out. Australia Great place. Love it. But it ain't the United States of America!!

So our teachers might actually be paid mor then there’s

Get those Australian boys another beer!!!

HA, you can make $166K in San Francisco and you still won't be sleeping there...

the school year is 4 weeks longer in australia...income tax rates for mid income workers in australia is 32.5% vs 22% in us...a gallon of gas in australia is over $4 per gallon...home price to income ratio australia - 7.38...home price to income ratio us - 3.99

We can hopefully all agree this is leadership and will bring us all back together;-)

I hear he is working on free beer for all kumbaya parties!

HFW, where did you hear this talk of free beer? Imagine if there were a vaccination site nearby! See where I'm going with this...Free ride to a place with FREE BEER!!! Hell that might be enough get me to think about voting Democrat!!!!!!