Bear Pistol
General Topic
If you carry in the bear bush, this is a 2018 article and it's pretty good. It breaks down success/failure rates by caliber.
Good article, makes me feel a little better with my .44.
I feel very comfortable with my Glock 20 in 10mm. I like having 16 rounds available and the ability to handle the gun one handed if need be.
All the cases of failed bear spray have me questioning the conventional wisdom about it's effectiveness.
Thanks for the article! Nice to see some FACTS for a change. Interesting how many successful encounters with the 9mm....................
I was thinking the same thing Griz!
Ya that was a fun read. Interesting stories
I’ve always thought that carrying the largest caliber handgun that you can shoot well would be the way to go. Nothing in that article changes my mind but, just as in everyday carry, better to carry a smaller caliber than nothing at all.
Fast is fine, accuracy is everthing ! Attributed to Wyatt Earp......
Do any of you carry in a National Park? I've checked all laws and I'm legal to carry in Yellowstone, except fed buildings, but it's illegal to discharged a firearm....even in self defense. Pretty sure the fine is a misdemeanor though.
Good article. Makes me feel pretty good about my easy handling Glock .357 Sig with 13 fmj rounds.
I don’t have any brown/grizzlys around but some of our NE black bears get good sized and a few near me are becoming a lot less afraid of people than they should be. Good to see success with the 40 which is my usual carry gun in the woods. However I just picked up a Smith 629 in 44mag so when the bears are around I’ll have that on me instead. Hope to never need it but rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
Love my titanium Taurus 41 mag with 240 grain hard cast rounds. Light weight and fairly compact with a two inch barrel. Hopefully I never need it. Even though this fall I will be after elk. I won’t be in Grizz country. So it will get the 175 grain silver tips for all other predators two and four legged.
10 mm is weak compared to some of those revolver calibers. .45 long colt can be loaded as hot as .44 mag.
I’m always surprised at how many shots some of these guys can get off. The few video clips I’ve seen, very few people would be skilled enough to get one hit on a beach ball, let alone one coming straight at them at full-bore.....
“ .45 long colt can be loaded as hot as .44 mag.”
I always wonder about the reality behind a statement like that… it makes sense that you can dumping a bunch of extra powder and bottled up inside of a rifle that is built to withstand the pressure and you should expect a lot more energy at the muzzle.
I don’t know enough about revolvers to have any idea how much of that “extra hot”-ness comes out the muzzle and how much just goes sideways between the cylinder and the barrel. Though I suspect that the level of precision in manufacturing a wheel-gun capable of putting that pressure to good use might explain the difference on the price tags that you see dangling from revolvers vs. “working quality” Semis....
There are some very good test studies on YouTube for 10 mm with hard cast bullets.
GF- I have an 1892 carbine chambered in that .45 colt. I've been shooting 240 gr bullets loaded to only 800 fps and the penetration tests far exceed what I expected. Pretty fun shooting it out to 300 yards. Seems like it takes 2 seconds to get there and the impact is very visible. At 1500 fps, I'd pick it over 10mm any day.
The .45 Colt as made in the old days doesn’t even resemble the cartridge that guys are loading now. In a Ruger, Freedom Arms, or a BFR the lowly .45 Colt does indeed run neck and neck with a .44 Magnum plus it has a larger frontal surface. The .44 is actually a .429 while the .45 is truly a .45.
Elmer Keith pioneered the idea of the magnum revolver cartridges, and had the blown-up guns to prove it. Without him and a couple others, magnum cartridges and revolvers would probably have been 15/20 years later coming to the consumer. The quality modern revolver, like the ones I named, will beat the stuffing out of semi-autos for penetration and shear tissue and bone destruction, which is what you would want to keep a bear off your six.
This is a good article. If it's lacking one thing, it doesn't list the type of round used. I will take the artistic liberty and suggest Buffalo Bores because of the power they have. When you shoot one....you will find out.
It's all about penetration and hitting the vitals, a 15 rd glock 9mm with buffalo bore hard cast bullets is better tha a 44 that you can't hit the barn door with.
I would think that almost any caliber with hardcast would have adequate penetration. I’d rather 6 accurate shots with a .40 or 10mm then maybe 1 or 2 of a .44 mag or larger.
I carry a S&W .500 in sure enough griz country. Hopefully never have to use it but I have complete confidence in it. I used to have fairly good confidence in bear spray but that has about left me. It's a hoax to save the bears. Yes, to some people bears lives are more important than yours or mine.
I got tired of the bear caliber argument and bought a 45-70. I’ve wanted one forever just to have. So this gave me a good reason ;). I figured to use it in place of a pistol when packing meat. Or revisiting a carcass for more loads. Or if I’m tagged out and hunting with a friend.
While bow hunting I think I’ll continue to carry my .40. Might pick up a glock 10mm at some point.
I’ve been playing with it. I’m light years more confident that I could hit a bear with it in a bad situation. That little red dot is FAST
Post script: I haven't weighed it yet. But it's pretty light. I believe I'd carry it in my hand if I ever carried it
I have an 1895 myself. It ain’t light, but it carries pretty well in one hand.
“ I’d rather 6 accurate shots with a .40 or 10mm then maybe 1 or 2 of a .44 mag or larger.”
I’ll buy that.... But if you only find yourself with time for ONE shot before getting knocked clean out of your sneakers....? Then what?
How many rounds of semi-auto can you REALLY put on a moving target in under 2 seconds? Not plinking rounds, but the Hot Stuff. And how many of those does it really take to equal one hot .44 Mag or .45 LC/Casull?
I don’t know the answer to that, I do know that judging by the way most people I’ve seen shoot “rapid fire” on stationary targets at 5 yards, they’d really be best off with whatever is the loudest and produces the biggest fireball. A single-shot, directed FlashBang would probably do a lot more good. Like a DA, 12-ga flare pistol kind of a thing....
Based on what I have read of bear incidents, high capacity generally doesn't come into play.
Having said that, when on Kodiak I used to carry a .475 Linebaugh - 5 shooter but only safe with 4 rounds. A Bowsite friend and I had a known deer-stealing sow and 3-1.5 year old cubs get called to our kill by a magpie, and only having one round per bear (and my hunting partner being faster than me) made me rethink things.
You don't have to outrun the bears Matt...
"Do any of you carry in a National Park?" Yup. I have in Glacier, & Grand Teton NP. I got lots of looks, but no comments.
I carry a Taurus Tracker .44 Mag 5 shot when in grizzly country. Shoot Buffalo Bore Dangerous Game at 265 grains. I've never shot at a bear but have been in close proximity to them. At one time, I considered going to a Glock 10mm for more firepower but knowing what I do know about the grizz, I really don't think one would have time to get off more than a shot or two. I witnessed a black bear get about 40 yards from a grizzly sow and her cubs. Mama covered that distance to the blackie a heck of a lot faster than I could get off two shots even if I was ready.
76aggie- Do you mean more available shots? The 44 mag ballistics make the 10mm look weak.
How much practice ya gonna do with a light frame .44 with a two inch barrel? I'm flinching already just thinking about it..... that would turn "happy happy joy joy I'm going to the range today!" into "guess I have to go to the range today....."
Have a glock in 9mm and looking for a 10mm soon, if the current regime allows it.... 9mm is cheap to shoot in comparison and the transition at least in operation between the two should be fairly close. Maybe practice 75/25? OK, I'm real cheap and the 9 is fun to shoot, maybe 90/10.... the plan is to get it down to auto pilot, repetition.... like drawing and shooting my bow. And if not in grizz country would likely be carrying the 9 anyway.
The penetration tests I have seen between 9mm and 10mm with appropriate bear defense rounds didn't show much difference in penetration depth.
“ The penetration tests I have seen between 9mm and 10mm with appropriate bear defense rounds didn't show much difference in penetration depth.”
Which means (assuming zero expansion) that the 10 did at least 23% “more”....because Frontal Area. If you run the math, these aren’t trifling differences...
The one certain means of stopping a bear is a CNS hit. With that, talking in terms of % (essentially permanent wound cavity) misses the point. Depth of penetration is the relevant criterion.
Pretty basic math... Pi x radius squared.
10mm bullet , radius = 5, squared is 25
9mm bullet, radius = 4.5, squared is 20.25
25/20.25 is 1.23. 1.234567, if you like interesting numbers....
So to reach comparable depth of penetration, a 10mm has to shove through over 20% more of whatever it is you’re shooting into.
Also, I see that Buffalo Bore makes ammo under the same name (Heavy Outdoorsman) in 9mm @147 grains and 10mm at 220. Call that a 50% bump.
So regardless of velocity, the 10mm bullet will have about half again the momentum of the 9mm (moving equally fast). If your bullet has to plow through thick muscle or strikes bone (generally a given on a CNS hit), that would come in handy for achieving Matt’s depth of penetration, no?
And speaking of plowing... 50% greater mass/momentum behind 25% greater frontal area/resistance... Not sure how a 9 could give up 100 fps AND spot the 10 a 50% mass advantage and still penetrate equally. Must be a hydraulic displacement/shockwave thing, in which case the sensible thing to do would be to slow down the 10mm so that it doesn’t waste so much “energy” on impact.
And if you DON’T hit bone, aren’t you likely to come out ahead for having destroyed a bigger chunk of the bear? If they’re gonna just keep chewing on you ‘til they bleed out, it seems like a pretty square deal to help them bleed faster.
None of which matters if you miss entirely, but maybe the bigger flash and the louder bang of the heavier load would help your cause a bit.
"If your bullet has to plow through thick muscle or strikes bone (generally a given on a CNS hit), that would come in handy for achieving Matt’s depth of penetration, no?"
No, depth of penetration is depth of penetration.
Consistent with my recollection, the Buffalo Bore site indicates its 9mm 147 gr. +P Outdoorsman load "...is designed to penetrate deeply (4 to 6 feet) in a straight line, through flesh and bones...".
For the 10mm 220 gr. load, it says "Straight line penetration into living tissue will exceed three feet."
Waiting for the fancy math that suggests 3 > 4-6.
You know folks always exaggerate WRT depth of penetration...... I mean, um, not that it really matters.....
Bullets that will penetrate and a gun that you can index well and put hate on target fast. The caliber/platform is mostly arm chair quarterbackin.
“ depth of penetration is depth of penetration.”
So you’re saying that mass/momentum/inertia/KE/Physics have no influence on Penetration??
And are you suggesting that you would rather have a PH backing you up with a .300 Mag FMJ than a Proper Stopping Rifle?
At some point, controllability trumps just about everything, of course, but Big, Heavy Bullets plow deep....
Just in case I had the chance to have one good shot at a griz at ten feet, and that’s all I could have, the bigger, badder cartridge would always be my choice. Always !
Does Buffalo Bore make 357 loads? Because I'd take a light d-a revolver if I had my druthers. (Yeah, short 357's kick. Once owned a 357 snubbie. Beast to shoot...)
https://www.alloutdoor.com/2017/06/28/3-sw-model-65-may-perfect-carry-revolver/
Shot my Ruger GP100 10mm yesterday very manageable as compared to the 44 mag I traded for it. I would take the 10mm over 44 for the reason of more possible shots to hit something vital.
@Dana - yep, they do; 180 gr hardcast.
I just wonder if you aren’t ahead of the game to reach your recoil limit with mass vs velocity.
Matt has a point about permanent wound channel not being the be-all/end-all... but (JMO) they’re a bigger deal than the temporary variety.....
What do you think about a Taurus Judge shooting 45 long colt?
Most grizzly attacks happen so fast the shooter is lucky to just clear the holster and get one or two shots prior to impact. I've seen plenty of academic discussions, and been in a few of them myself. Most of them are scenario-based, but there's a problem. The bear doesn't know the scenario or follow our mental plan. They do what bears do which is always unpredictable. I've stopped discussing the merits of cartridges, handgun type, # of rounds. I'll just tell you that if I'm going to get at most one or two shots off at VERY close range on a determined grizzly, I'll take the baddest and most powerful handgun cartridge I can shoot accurately. I want penetration and shock-energy delivered into the bear. It's my opinion that the chances of getting 7 to 14 shots at/into a pissed and attacking grizzly are infinitesimal. As in reeeeealy small.
I'll take the customized .45-70 when the bears are big and the woods are spooky. Otherwise it's a big-bore revolver with hard-cast projectiles. I once pulled the revolver on a grizzly I estimated at well over 750 pounds. I don't mind telling you I was asking the bear gods to call this dude away. The handgun felt like pellet pistol.
I ended up buying buffalo bullets for my 41 after reading how they raised my ballistics to that of a reg 44 mag. The 44 buffalo loads take that cal to impressive levels. It did come with a disclaimer that a couple of guns were not likely capable of handling buffalo bullets.
“ What do you think about a Taurus Judge shooting 45 long colt?”
Would that one handle a hot loaded LC?
And how does that stack up against a .410 slug?
Then at some point, you have to ask how it stacks up next to a .45/70.... ;) Don’t think they're rated for that.
I do see that a Raging Bull 4” barrel is virtually the same length as a Judge with a 3”, but the Bull weighs an ounce less, is six shots vs 5.... and it’s a .44 Mag from the ground up.
Costs a good chunk more. But if you need a handgun for bears badly enough to be wiling to carry it... it’s probably worth a few more bucks to get it right. The judge is designed for concealed carry; a Bear Pistol doesn’t need to be concealed; needs NOT to be, really, so why would you sign up for the performance liabilities that concealability brings?
The Casull is bigger, badder and more versatile, but nearly a pound heavier, and I gather that very few people shoot them very well at full performance. Off of my list for sure.
Good article thats been around awhile. I know of 2 cases where bears were not deterred by spray while I was in AK that never made the papers.
One things for sure, the wildlife managers recommend spray as they don't want those bears shot.
I've moved from a SW629 44 mag to a G20SF. I do a lot of draw and shoot on steel with Glocks so it made sense for me to stay with what I shoot well. I don't care what weapon you have, if you haven't trained with it, its not going to be all that effective.
I think the hard cast bullets are going to prove the old 'shoot the largest caliber' debate mute over time. Those Hard cast are penetrating monsters. I run my G20 stock and with almost 800rds of Underwood 200gr through it and many 180 FMJ rds. with zero hiccups.
_
In many cases the scenario was not "getting off a shot on a charging bear" but shooting a bear that was already physically engaged with the attack victim. A.357 used while the bear chewed on his leg after one of the bites broke his leg. Some cases literally putting the gun to the bear and firing. One guy shot off his own toe with the shot that killed the bear. That might suggest a gun that is readily fired several times under great stress with one hand.
Several cases five rounds or more were shot, one case 9 rounds fired, most did not mention how many rounds were fired. A couple mentioned they might have kept shooting but possibly wanted to conserve ammo.
Also interesting how many of the events bear spray was used and found ineffective or having the bear re-engage in the attack.
I already have a Taurus Judge and a S&W .357 mag with a 4” barrel. Which one would be best ?
.45 LC is a good round if bought or loaded hot but from what I hear most of it is loaded mild for old guns. AZBOW I would say whichever you can shoot faster and more accurately.
GF, right on with the casull. The 454 is a serious hand thumper. Definately not what I’d carry in bear country. I agree with you. I shoot one a fair amount. And loaded hot, I don’t shoot it well enough for quick close combat with a grizz. No one I’ve ever shot it with does.
Situational for me. If inconvenient to tote my .45-70 or 12 gauge slug then I carry a glock 20. I’m way more accurate with that pistol than revolvers and like the holster options better. It isn’t the most powerful pistol available but it’s the most powerful option that I’m halfway accurate with.
GF, right on with the casull. The 454 is a serious hand thumper. Definately not what I’d carry in bear country. I agree with you. I shoot one a fair amount. And loaded hot, I don’t shoot it well enough for quick close combat with a grizz. No one I’ve ever shot it with does.
I love all the comments from folks out east, makes me chuckle, quite entertaining.
Cuz we’re from out east we can shoot large caliber handguns? Cuz that makes sense.
Yeah, we don’t have big bears in the East! ;-)
MT no doubt a Grizzly would scare the living crap out of me however I have hunted black bear on the ground and know full well the speed of them having missed two shots with a scoped lever gun on a black bear that ran about 10 feet next to me full speed that I shot. I also shoot handguns from 9mm to 44 magnum quite regularly so I do have experience rapid firing which may actually be more experience then some of you western guys on here. The bear was shot 30 yards away with a .35 REM Marlin lever gun I was able to take one shot as it ran my direction then one shot 12 yards going past me so I do know you will not get much opportunity to empty a handgun on a bear. Obviously a scoped rifle is not the way to go but I was hunting with it and not using for defense but I can definitely relate on what it is like having a bear run full speed toward you real close and I can say if he wanted to he would have been on me in 2 seconds from 30 yards out. Not a Grizzly I know but I can say at least that is an eye opener either way.
What cracks me up is the guys going out and buying a 454 Casull and going to the range once with it and thinking they are good to go. I owned a S&W 629 .44 Mag and rapid shots with a large framed gun is damned hard to do. I’d take a Glock 20 any day just for that reason. If you can’t rapid fire a 9mm into a semi small target you sure as hell ain’t gonna do it with a .44 or larger.
Still wondering what geography has to do with handling recoil…. But for that matter, if being Back East is such a defect, I guess you shouldn’t buy a Ruger or a Colt or a Springfield, Marlin, Remington, Charter…..
Also wondering…
If the bear is already on top of you and you shove the muzzle of your semi-auto into the bear’s ribs… is that going to take it out of battery? And if it does go off, will it cycle properly and do it a second time? What if you’re packed in so close that the empties can’t eject cleanly?
Never owned a semi. But that sure would suck to have 18 rounds and a jam.
Also kinda curious how the all-up weights compare between a big-bore wheelgun and a semi-auto with 10 oz or so of lead in the magazine? Because 20 rounds of 200-or-so grain loads has got to add up…. And if it’s too heavy to bother with, then…
In any event…. I do have to wonder about the utility of a handgun which cannot be managed one-handed. I don’t mean real accurately, because, #1, there are damn few people I’ve seen who can hit a “semi small” target to begin with and #2, at powderburn distances I would suspect that the main thing would be just making it go Boom without the recoil ripping it out of your hand.
So I have no doubt whatsoever that most people are probably better off with spray than a handgun. I've just watched too many people shoot….
I sure would like to run across one of those guys who bought a Casull and then found out how hard they kick… LOL
One other thing to ponder….
If I recall correctly, when Dick Casull first introduced the round…. Didn’t he offer a choice between a single-action revolver… or a single-action revolver with a different serial number on it?
GF that’s a good point on shooting the gun one handed as their is a good chance that is what will happen with little time to react. Every time I go to the range I shoot the 9mm and .40 one handed but I never did try it with the .44 as it was just too large a grip to hold on tight.
I’ve shot the 454 one handed. Once. I don’t have huge hands. Definitely a two hand gun.
I’ll go with Tembry and Kevin Dill on this one. Someone carrying a short 12 gauge or 45-70 Marlin Guide gun. To back up the bow Hunter. Unfortunately Kevin has to do both:^)
A pistol is a huge psychological boost. And makes you FEEL prepared. But the reality is a 30-30 has more energy than a 454 and would be much easier to shoot accurately. If you practiced.
Of course, you can’t sneak around carrying the 30-30 at the ready while bow hunting. So people hunting alone will most likely choose spray and or a hand gun. And carrying even a short rifle, day in and day out is cumbersome compared to a handgun.
But if a Bear knocked me down and chewed on me a bit then took a break. Which they often do. I would rather have a short easy pointing 45-70 laying on the ground a few feet away to put one in its skull than a Pistol.
There’s a reason that the people that face dangerous game charges many times more often than anyone in Bear country. (African PH) Choose big bore rifles. And they practice that danger close shot to the skull.
Wait a minute!
I just found out Kevin is from Ohio so his opinion isn’t valid :^)
So I'm curious...maybe relevant, maybe not; I haven't owned a wheel gun for years, but I recently bought a small revolver (.38/.357) for a CC. Is it still common practice to keep the hammer down on an empty cyl? Today's firearms are quite advanced from 45 years ago!
Is it a matter of 'safety' or 'round capacity' in this situation? Seems like common sense to me...but then again I don't accuse guys of having common sense when they insist on playing in front of a bears den!!!
No longer necessary with a Ruger SA, owing to the transfer bar. They put that in every model and I suspect that every other manufacturer does something similar. Because if AD-preventing technology exists and you don’t include it in your design, you’re probably one AD away from the company being under new ownership…
And if you’ve got a compact, 5-shot CC gun that’s really only a 4-shot…
altitude.....
Being from Ohio just makes me a juicier target for Alaskan bears....I have to be more defensive than the typical nimrod!
Muscle.....
That’s more like it Real, Big Bear medicine
