Slick Trick viper trick issue…
Equipment
I’ve always liked the look of the VT and have always heard great things from people who shoot them. I bought a couple packs for my wife and myself last week and received them today. After assembling them, it seems there are some manufacturing quality issues that leave this gap. I’ve tried reading old threads on multiple sights and have ran across this issue only recently.
So, anyone else see this as a fit up problem? Maybe due to the ownership change and maybe changing manufacturing vendors? I’d really like to use them, but that gap concerns me. For the record, the arrow insert and washer are basically swedging the blades into the ferrule.
Small oring on threads before you put head on. I had one do that to me from the packs I ordered. I used it at my continual practice head and it’s flying fine. Zero issues
I think at least in part it's the anodizing on the smooth part of the ferrule that fits into the insert, not the threads. The black anodizing is too thick (I don't really know if its anodizing or paint). I had one that I noticed was tight screwing into both a brass and aluminum insert so I just wiped it with an abrasive cloth to remove the black stuff and it all fit fine.
I did have one that the small blade when seated left a tiny shoulder at the base so I did the o-ring method and it worked for a cow elk.
If the darn things didn't fly so well and kill stuff I would probably look elsewhere but I'm almost too superstitious to change.
Love those heads Rick and have really performed great..never had this issue at all w them..
I hope the conglomerate that acquired them keep the same level of quality that Gary demanded when he owned ST. He had exceptionally high standards and very unlikely a defective head (like the pic above) would have ever been shipped knowing his commitment to quality control. Hopefully just a fluke.
Unfortunately it may not be a fluke. That is the 2nd pic I've seen in a month that the head won't tighten down onto the insert/washer. Just like Embry's, the other pic I saw was on a pack of Vipers purchased this year.
Can you add another washer to snug it up?
Grunter… no. What is happening is the washer is actually contacting the radius on the inside of the bottom of the blades. The arrow insert is actually wedging the the washer up into the blades, holding them in place.
If I am seeing it correctly, the broadhead is stopping before it is fully seated. I had this issue before with a few VPA heads, it was due to the specs being just a bit off of AMO standards by just a hair. The VPA heads would fully screw into some Easton inserts but not into the Carbon Tech inserts.
Gap from the blade positioning.
Gap from the blade positioning.
Here’s a bit more breakdown… as you can see by the photo, the ferrule will seat into the insert with washer but minus blades.
I then put the two blade components together and you can see where the washer is not seating. It looks to me (arrows pointing), that the blades themselves might be the issue. Appears the slot, either on the main blade or the small blade, aren’t deep enough to allow a level plane to occur and also allow the washer to seat against the ferrule better.
That is not what it initially looked like. I am guessing that the blade or insert dimensions are off (most likely the blades).
It could also be the machined ferrule dimensions are off and not letting the blades go up high enough to eliminate the gap.
Ferrule is totally different than previous years model. Doesn’t look anything like mine
Edit: difference could just be weight. Mine are 125g.
I shoot 125 and haven't seen this issue with new ownership versions. Definitely something wrong with the tolerances, I guess try to call them.
Ahh that makes more sense. Hopefully you can return for money back or a xchange.
Rick, chuck that washer up in the lathe and bore it out about another 10 thou then add a good size chamfer. Should mate up like a champ! ;-)
hahah @ midwest.
That washer was probably $.03.
As has been stated there are AMO standards that the ferrule shoulder diameter should meet (.2025- .2045" if my memory serves) then there's a step in the shoulder which falls under that cheap stamped washer - I think its .215"ish. Then as you demonstrated there's a corner chamfer/ rad on the inside corners of those stamped blades that could be out of spec. - it looks large to me..
If I were you I'd give TOG/ ST a jingle and have them send you a new pack. Then keep those ones and throw an O-ring between the ferrule and washer to tighten up, and use 'em for practice.
Yea, I thought about it Nick, but that’s too much work. :)
Good point SR… my next plan is to call them tomorrow.
Rick, in the picture with you holding the two blades together, it looks like that 90 degree angle where your arrow is pointing to is rounded. If it was actually square, the washer could actually slide flush with the bottom of the blade. At least that what’s it looks like to me.
Bob, that is true. But, in my opinion, it’s either the mating slots on the blades being too small and not allowing the blades to go up the .020 - .030 that is needed to mate up properly. And again, it could be the dimensions on the ferrule that are out and creating this gap.
I shot ST magnums a few years. They were awesome. Sad to see that apparently their QC is slipping.
Does it seat properly with the blades but without the washer? Might tell you if the back of the blades will dimensionally fit into the insert but not the washer.
Matt… same issue. The arrow insert simply wedges into the radius of the 90 degree and pushes the blades up into the ferrule.
Update here. After seeing this I opened a new package I received last week. Three of the four broadheads have similar problems to Rick's. I'm making it work with o-ring. The fourth ferrule won't fit into any insert I have: gold tip brass, gt aluminum, carbon express, easton. It's totally unusable so I got three broadheads in a four pack with an extra set of blades. I think the pop-up ad is telling me something (QAD Exodus??)
Is hard to tell for sure judging from Embry's pics, but it appears the notches/grooves cut in the top of both blades are not as deep as the ones I have from last year. I will have to buy replacement blades yet this season. Little worried about what I'll get.
Dang, glad I saw this. I recently picked up two packs of 100 grain Vipers. My issue is the ferrule is too fat to get the threads down into the insert. Totally useless and disappointing. Thanks for the post, I have time to return them and get dialed in with a new head.
Rick…….yeah, I see what you mean. I’m using the Slick Trick Magnums for a musk ox hunt the beginning of October. Here’s a picture of mine. They mate up fairly tight and have them flying great out to 60 yards. I normally use Rage Hypodermics, but just might even use the Slick Tricks of whitetails here in Illinois.
Rick…….yeah, I see what you mean. I’m using the Slick Trick Magnums for a musk ox hunt the beginning of October. Here’s a picture of mine. They mate up fairly tight and have them flying great out to 60 yards. I normally use Rage Hypodermics, but just might even use the Slick Tricks of whitetails here in Illinois.
twinetickler: were all of the ferrules in the pack too wide to fit in the insert? I only had one out of four.
I only tried one, figured I paid for 4. Already returned them for Ramcat Diamondbacks. Slicks have been good, but too many other solid options to dick with them imo.
Bummer, glad I have a few packs from 5-6 years ago
Bought two brand new packs a few weeks back. Haven’t had any issues with the hardened steel (black) ones. However, the stainless steel ones have rattled on my arrows in the past for no reason; tried everything to fix it. Did you ever think that your inserts might be seated too far forward in the shafts for the broadheads?
My son shoots the VP tricks. I just looked at his….we bought two new packs for our elk hunt. Similar thing, but we used a broadhead wrench, they snuggled up tight…..and they have been flying well for practice. I’ll have to look at all of them to see if they are all like the one I pulled out his quiver.
“ Did you ever think that your inserts might be seated too far forward in the shafts for the broadheads?” Not sure what you mean, but I put a ferrule and washer (minus blades-see pic in thread) in my arrow and it seated up accordingly.
Hey, I just looked at mine at home 125 Viper. Switch the direction of the washer. One side is intended to fit the radius of the blade; when installed the opposite direction it creates the gap you indicated.
Smarba, good thought but that’s not the issue.
I did call the customer service today and they informed me that a .010 gap is normal. Hmmm, well the gap on mine is greater than .01, and I’d bet it’s around .020 - .030... I also emailed them some photos to look at. Now we wait.
Here’s the reply I got from “tech support”…
“Hello Rick, Hope this email finds you well! There was a revision made to our Viper Trick mid-late 2020 to the design of the ferrules that fixed an issue with the Alcatraz Blade locking System. This revision which fixed the issue also left a small gap present once the head is completely assembled. This will not affect flight, penetration or performance of the broadhead.“
I see what they are doing, the design is making a “wedge” to hold the blades into the ferrule. The washer is designed to push the smaller blade up into the larger blade, and in turn, wedging into the ferrule. Guess I could put a small o-ring to keep the gap from appearing, but I’m afraid the blades will simply cut the o-ring from applied pressure.
Seems like a lot of work to get things like I want them. I may be making too much of this, but issues like this get in my head and then it concerns me and I obsess about it. Grrrr!
I’m gonna try the new ones I bought a month or two ago….I don’t remember a gap tho…. I would have noticed that…
They made a change to correct a problem we didn't have and now we have problems.
So they are ok with that gap... smh. If it were me I’d ether return them or use a Dremel tool to fix the issue. And look elsewhere next time. In my mind a tight connection between the blades ferrule and insert is paramount. Yes it will fly but it will damage your insert and arrow on a solid hit. I’ve only shot the standards and magnums but haven’t purchased for awhile. Sounds like they need better QC and engineers. Dang
I dumped mine, have a pack of the old standards and am sticking to Ramcats for now. I agree, why fix something that wasn't broke. Too bad
This was the second guy to email me back… “ Rick, After talking with the engineer regarding this he said this gaps looks to be within tolerance and that you shouldn’t have any issues with this head. Please let me know if you have any questions regarding this or If there is anything else we can do for you.”
My reply back…. “Everyone I’ve talked with that have used multiple styles of slick trick heads tell me that this is not normal. I’ve killed animals with a multitude of broadheads over my 30 years of bow hunting and I’ve never seen a gap in any of the heads I’ve used.
I understand that this is engineered in a way that pushes the washer into the smaller blade, that pushes into the larger blade and seats at the top of the ferrule. But a large gap? That’s more than “the normal .010 gap” I was told. I’m not buying it. I would recommend you guys work on your tolerances and design.”
Yep, pretty sad excuse.
Looking forward to slipping an Exodus through an animal or 6 this year. They sure live up to the hype as far as quality, design, and sharpness. Flight is superb as well!
This was my reply to the first guy from tech support…
“ I’m not buying that. I’ve inquired on multiple bowsite’s about the gap and everyone (including numerous makes of ST heads) says this isn’t normal. A .02 - .03 gap? A tech I talked to yesterday from customer service said a .010 gap “is normal”, but the gaps on mine are again, in the .02 - .03 range. Within my 30 years of spinning heads on arrows, I’ve never seen a gap as large as these… and ALL cinch up to the ferrule and the arrow insert. If I were the owner of ST heads, I’d work on my tolerances and design to make less of a gap. I really was looking forward to using the viper tricks for the first time, but if this gap between the ferrule and washer is normal, I’ll use a different head or stick to my Magnus heads.
Rick Embry”
Ordered some VT replacement blades and a pack of 4 new complete heads. Should have them by end of week. Hopefully at least the blades will cinch up nice in my older ferules. Maybe I'll get lucky. Won't use them if they gap like in the pics above. I have lots of ST Magnums to use and they fly the same, but prefer the VT.
Move on to Muzzy…problem solved.
Rick the washers from qad exodus heads will take up the gap, put the st washer on and the qad washer right behind it. Thats what i did with mine and they cinch up tight and fly great.
I have a friend who works in the archery industry, slick tricks were my go too for several years. Since the change in ownership group the quality control side has left a lot to be desired, still have some of older models however primary heads are now Magnus Black Hornets.
“ Move on to Muzzy…problem solved.”
Ummm No. moved away from Muzzy a dozen years ago. No plans to go backwards
Rick- Yes, the gap is real! I've been shooting that head for a number of years and never had the gap. I agree, it will weaken the assembly on hard impact. Besides the gap, every new head required sliding a blade through the slots, multiple times, to clear machining shavings. Never saw that issue either.
Yup, tried two packs of Viper Tricks last year and sent them back due to the "gap". I really wanted to try them so bought two more packs this year. Same gap issue. Frustrating!!
What’s even more disturbing after I’ve contacted them and addressed the problems, I’ve sent them a rebuttal (posted both above) and zero contact in return. Seems I’m their QC nowadays. Pretty lame on ST, in my opinion. Is that how businesses are ran theses days? You get a vanilla answer in return and hey… “.010 gap is normal” deal with it. Pretty lame.
Is Slick Trick a sponsor here on Bowsite?
Maybe a thread on a bigger, well known platform/forum will get better results
"the washers from qad exodus heads will take up the gap" So the solution is to buy a pack of exodus heads and use the washers?
Slick Trick was a sponsor for a decade, the acquiring conglomerate pulled the sponsorship. We've not had good luck keeping many of our sponsors after they get gobbled up by these big firms. Many of their marketing teams have no insights or experience in bowhunting and archery. Some of them come from VC teams, or industries entirely unrelated to hunting. Case in point - First Light being acquired by the Chernin group (Biden supporters, anti-gun, etc).
It really sucks, I miss the old days when you can go to ATA and it was like visiting family. It's nothing like that now.
I shot the STs through 3/8th plywood yesterday. Penetrated up to the fletch. Broadheads were were intact. Didn’t bend the blades. If the gap poses a problem what would that problem be?
I received my VT in the mail and I was not lucky. New heads have the gap and the blades installed into my old ferules gap also. I am returning them. Shot my Magnums yesterday. Will use those this season.
Ok. So does the gap make the heads spin poorly? As said before, my son has these and if you crank them on with a broadhead wrench, they cinch up pretty darn tight. They fly great for him.
I not only had the gap issue, but they wouldn't fit in my insert. If they fly good for you I would think they'll still kill no problem. There are just a lot of other options without issues that I chose to go with. Probably the most important piece of gear since it's what is doing the killing.
The gapped head did spin fine. I did not shoot it as I knew it was going back. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me I don't want the gap. Not even Slick Trick will convince me that it doesn't create a weakness. I'm sure many will kill with it but in case I hit something hard, I want my shaft tight up against my broadhead, just as its been for the last 30+ years. I don't want to add extra washers or crank on it with a wrench.
I have used Viper Trick since 2016 or 17. All the other years the broadheads had no gap. They made a design change to remedy an issue that I did not experience. (Actually I don't know what the problem even was). I don't care for their new design and am changing broadheads.
Totally unacceptable.I’ve shot ST heads and have introduced the head to many a North Mississippi bowhunter.The quality after Gary’s passing has been maintained so this thread is very concerning.Taking animals is serious business to ethical hunters and no product is as important as your broadhead.I don’t doubt you could shoot a 100 animals with nary a problem but to KNOWINGLY screw that on and then piecemeal a “fix” via your own ingenuity is insane.I promise whether I buy another pack is predicated on the handling of this issue.
Muzzy? Hilarious……
Glad to see others (that give 2s’s) do care about fit up issues such as this. Honestly, a lot of my concern goes back to 30+ years in machining and manufacturing. We dealt products that once sent out the door, we damn sure didn’t want them back. That would be going backwards.
When I addressed this problem with customer service at ST it was done in a quick manor. The problem I have is I’ve told them of this and they say the gap is “normal”. Even after I replied back they left me hanging with lingering questions about the quality of product. That’s my concern.
For the record… they were hair shaving sharp and spun nicely.
Refreshing this thread. There are other broadheads that won't break the bank but are more precision fit than the recent VT. My son inlaw used some TruGlo Titanium X 4 blades he picked up on Camofire. Similar washer system to Slick Tricks but the fit is perfect and solid. The head looks expensive. They come with a bh wrench and extra blades. He shot a doe last weekend with his 45# compound. Complete pass thru. She ran by my stand and her side looked like a gun shot wound. Lesson: not all inexpensive heads are "cheap".
Timely thread as I just ordered a couple packs of the 100 gr Stainless Steel Viper Tricks. I haven't received them yet, and was wondering if the gap and/or thread issue has been noticed on the stainless steel version. Thoughts?
So are you moving on to shooting a real broadhead now Rick? Maybe something that opens and leaves a man sized hole? ;)
Adam… if it flies good, spins good and is sharp, I’m game. I did “make these work”, by adding a small shim stock washer. I’ll burn through them with killing some pigs and deer, but I’ll never order a ST head again. Now… if I hear they’ve made improvements and worked on their fit up quality, I’ll reconsider.
I’ve had great results with slick trick. Looks like I’ll be using musacchia now.
PSU - I can't recall anyone saying they had issue with stainless. When I returned mine, rep told me I was not the first having the issue. They had seen it previously.
Thanks Jethro. I have used the regular 100 gr Viper Tricks for years without issue and ran across a great deal on the SS version so I thought I would give them a try.
Will report back once they are received early next week. Thanks Again
Really wish it wasn’t the case. I was really looking forward to shooting these heads. The st’s I bought (both the 100 grain and 125 grain) have the gap between the washer and insert. I’ve never had a another b head do that. And I called to last week and was told the same think about re manufacturing them and that the gap was fine. Sounded like bs to me then and now.
mine still worked fine
i'll continue to use em
First of all no disrespect to anyone on here. No one here has made production broadheads and i can tell you having made broadheads for 38 years that whenever you manufacturer anything including broadheads and when you are manufacturing alot of them, stuff happens. Things happen including employees who may not be paying attention. I knew Gary and gary was a good man and took a lot of pride in his business, but the reality is gary was not making even close to the volume of broadheads they make now with the outdoor group selling them. Also the original owner of any product is always going to take more pride in their " baby" than the investment firm who buys the product. With that all being said, if the product is not right the company regardless of the product made should replace the one or any with a new one. It looks like your using a ethics style insert. One thing you can do which will make this broadhead work perfectly is take a chamfer tool and make the chamfer in your insert deeper and the broadhead will screw in and fit perfectly. The reason i know this is because sometimes ethics inserts and other inserts the chamfer is not chamfered deep enough so you get this tiny gap. You chamfer the insert deeper there wont be any gap. Should you have to do this? No-BUT- making inserts on a screw machine they shoot them out like bullets, tools ware down and chamfers are not has deep as they should be. Stuff happens in manfacturing, nothing is perfect.
Mike, it’s not the what you’re eluding too. There is a lip on the blades where they meet the washer and it won’t allow the washer to snug up to the ferrel. If you screw them in super tight with a broad head wrench, it will snug down nicely, but still have a micro gap.
There is zero flight performance because of the issue.
