Moultrie Products
AZ bonus point changes
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
creed 25-Sep-21
BOHNTR 25-Sep-21
creed 25-Sep-21
Tilzbow 25-Sep-21
sticksender 25-Sep-21
Knothead 25-Sep-21
Beendare 25-Sep-21
Scott/IL 25-Sep-21
Scoot 25-Sep-21
BTM 25-Sep-21
Trial153 25-Sep-21
Z Barebow 25-Sep-21
Tilzbow 25-Sep-21
midwest 26-Sep-21
JL 26-Sep-21
Don K 26-Sep-21
Zim 26-Sep-21
creed 26-Sep-21
kentuckbowhnter 26-Sep-21
Bill in MI 26-Sep-21
huntingdad 26-Sep-21
pav 26-Sep-21
TEmbry 27-Sep-21
MQQSE 27-Sep-21
Tejas 27-Sep-21
txhunter58 10-Oct-21
SDHNTR(home) 10-Oct-21
Scoot 10-Oct-21
SDHNTR(home) 10-Oct-21
SteveB 11-Oct-21
Tilzbow 11-Oct-21
Whip 11-Oct-21
SDHNTR(home) 11-Oct-21
Tilzbow 11-Oct-21
DonVathome 12-Oct-21
creed 12-Oct-21
BOWUNTR 12-Oct-21
Whip 12-Oct-21
Whip 12-Oct-21
Whip 12-Oct-21
WapitiBob 12-Oct-21
WapitiBob 12-Oct-21
Willieboat 12-Oct-21
pav 13-Oct-21
WapitiBob 15-Oct-21
SDHNTR(home) 16-Oct-21
SDHNTR(home) 16-Oct-21
BOHNTR 17-Oct-21
creed 17-Oct-21
SDHNTR(home) 17-Oct-21
WapitiBob 17-Oct-21
Huntcell 17-Oct-21
SDHNTR(home) 18-Oct-21
BOWUNTR 18-Oct-21
Tilzbow 18-Oct-21
JDECK 18-Oct-21
SDHNTR(home) 18-Oct-21
midwest 08-Dec-21
brettpsu 08-Dec-21
brettpsu 08-Dec-21
midwest 08-Dec-21
SDHNTR(home) 09-Dec-21
smarba 09-Dec-21
SDHNTR(home) 10-Dec-21
WapitiBob 10-Dec-21
StickFlicker 10-Dec-21
Heat 10-Dec-21
bghunter 10-Dec-21
sticksender 10-Dec-21
BOWUNTR 11-Dec-21
Scoot 12-Dec-21
creed 12-Dec-21
BOHNTR 12-Dec-21
BOHNTR 12-Dec-21
huntingdad 12-Dec-21
StickFlicker 12-Dec-21
Tilzbow 13-Dec-21
BULELK1 13-Dec-21
smarba 13-Dec-21
SDHNTR(home) 13-Dec-21
Tilzbow 13-Dec-21
smarba 15-Dec-21
WapitiBob 15-Dec-21
smarba 15-Dec-21
brettpsu 15-Dec-21
SDHNTR(home) 15-Dec-21
BULELK1 04-Jan-22
Scoot 04-Jan-22
Tilzbow 04-Jan-22
smarba 04-Jan-22
midwest 04-Jan-22
WapitiBob 04-Jan-22
flyingbrass 05-Jan-22
Old School 06-Jan-22
'Ike' 07-Jan-22
bigbuck 07-Jan-22
Tilzbow 07-Jan-22
Don K 07-Jan-22
WapitiBob 07-Jan-22
Cheesehead Mike 07-Jan-22
Tilzbow 08-Jan-22
pav 08-Jan-22
creed 08-Jan-22
Z Barebow 08-Jan-22
midwest 16-Jan-22
BOHNTR 16-Jan-22
From: creed
25-Sep-21

creed's Link
some of you might find this interesting

From: BOHNTR
25-Sep-21
Doesn’t really affect those who already have the HE BP…….basically makes it easier for NR’s to get a permanent point?

From: creed
25-Sep-21
That’s how I read it. Pay your money, take the course and unless I missed something it’s all online.

From: Tilzbow
25-Sep-21
Yep, all online vs the current course which requires in person attendance for part of it. I’ll pay it simply because so many others will do the same and not doing so will put you even further back.

Good revenue generator for AZ.

Once I burn my deer and elk points in AZ I’m bailing out of my annual donations….

From: sticksender
25-Sep-21
After reading that, it sounds like they're looking at this as another revenue stream. The HE bonus point is unique to AZ and 100% of their own creation, originally intended merely to incentivize more people to take in-person HE. Justifying this change by citing point cost in other states is a non-sequitur. Now the program morphs into a revenue booster, parading as HE.

Next step....maybe just outright sell extra points per "genus". Perhaps 500.00 each for ressies and 1000.00 each for NR's? It's an absolute certainty they'd sell thousands of them. Note: the previous statement is sarcasm!

From: Knothead
25-Sep-21
You have to admit they are creative at finding ways to raise money. Arizona must lead all other states in that regard. At the same time they never, in no way improve the quality of habitat or improve big game numbers. Although we are unable to hunt them, G&F is doing a fine job increasing the Mexican Gray wolf population.

From: Beendare
25-Sep-21
Wow, $300 for a non res.

I took it the first year offered…I think it was $25

From: Scott/IL
25-Sep-21
Looks like my wife just lost out on a mini vacation to Arizona so I could attend a class.

$300 is steep, but so are the draw odds for non-resident elk in Arizona.

From: Scoot
25-Sep-21
$300 is steep, but how's that compare to airfare, vehicle rental, hotel, restaurants, etc?

From: BTM
25-Sep-21
"Once I burn my deer and elk points in AZ I’m bailing out of my annual donations…." Amen to that, Tilzbow! I'm done getting the non-res screwing by so many states.

From: Trial153
25-Sep-21
Every year states give me more and more reasons to go hunt Canada

From: Z Barebow
25-Sep-21

Z Barebow's embedded Photo
Z Barebow's embedded Photo
Scoot-Online is definitely cheaper.

From: Tilzbow
25-Sep-21
BTM,

As a NV resident, I don’t see Western draws as screwing non-residents. The trophy quality is great in AZ, NV, UT and New Mexico but the opportunity is limited and odds are steep, even as a resident. As a NV resident, I’m in double digit points for nearly every species and over 20 points for sheep and goats. I’ve drawn plenty of deer and antelope tags, one sheep tag and one elk and I’ve been applying here for 44 years. I know I’ll draw a few more resident elk tags another sheep tag all and the annual costs to aren’t too bad. BUT I don’t draw many tags and average 3 years between hunts - AS A RESIDENT. I’m not bitching, just informing that as aeven a resident of a trophy western state it ain’t easy to draw.

Long story short, I’m done with AZ and UT after I finally draw because trophies don’t mea as much anymore and more importantly my money can be better spent on fine whiskey!!!

From: midwest
26-Sep-21
The HE point is now a virtually worthless advantage because anyone who is even remotely interested in hunting AZ will just buy it vs. having to actually travel to AZ to take the course.

Well played AZGFD, well played.

From: JL
26-Sep-21
"Every year states give me more and more reasons to go hunt Canada"

If you're time limited....ie...older.....that would be a true sentiment.

From: Don K
26-Sep-21
Another devalued point system.............

From: Zim
26-Sep-21
No surprise at all. Saw this coming long ago. At least I had a great winter break there and got to use my point for ten years. Actually assured me of drawing three Kaibab deer tags during that time. Plus I didn’t pay the new high fee. Who’s next to devalue NR points? I’m still bankin on Nevada squared house of cards, but not counting out WY & CO.

With the cognitively impaired Biden’s clown show distracting every taxpayer in America, now is the perfect time for these three contestants to slide through their point devaluation schemes unnoticed.

From: creed
26-Sep-21
There's likely going to be a window before the numbers getting the point will flood the system and make bonus points worthless. I would guess this year and maybe two more? With the growth explosion in AZ there are already more applicants and it doesn't show any signs of slowing down.

26-Sep-21
for 300 bucks i will just try to live another year, if i dont it wont matter.

From: Bill in MI
26-Sep-21
Way to dilute the pool and the value of the in person investment…thx AZ

From: huntingdad
26-Sep-21
I like the fee structure.( insert sarcastic grin). As a hunter ed instructor, we had to jump through hoops and document expenses just to charge $5 per person. It's all about the $$$$

From: pav
26-Sep-21
Crap, my AZ draw odds just got worse....again!

From: TEmbry
27-Sep-21
Those in Arizona, was there actually a problem with the stated intent of this change ( full classes being taken up by those seeking points vs those actually needing/benefiting from a Hunter education course?)

I’ll take the class, $300 is cheaper than burning 25k airline miles from Alaska, hotel, car rental, etc. That said we plan to visit in January anyway so if a live class is open that week I may sign up anyway.

From: MQQSE
27-Sep-21
Crazy. I’m supposed to fly out doe the class in a week. May have to cancel that trip.

From: Tejas
27-Sep-21
Anyone know when this course will be available?

From: txhunter58
10-Oct-21
Good thread

From: SDHNTR(home)
10-Oct-21
Another money grab, but I’ll probably fall for it.

At least it’s not a bad as AZGFD whoring out to SM influencers to pimp OTC tag sales! That’s happening and it makes me want to puke.

From: Scoot
10-Oct-21
When will this money grab become available?

From: SDHNTR(home)
10-Oct-21
When does this go into effect? I don’t see anything on the AZGFD website about it? Just the normal HE course that requires an in person field day.

From: SteveB
11-Oct-21
If done this fall does it get a point toward next year?

From: Tilzbow
11-Oct-21
Steve B,

Short answer is yes, based on what I remember. I do know the detail is covered in the information accessible via the link in the first post. If I remembered exactly what it was I’d post it but I don’t.

From: Whip
11-Oct-21
Yep. My chances of ever drawing the tag over been chasing just got worse. Invested the times and money to go to AZ, play their game and take the stupid course was a complete waste of time. A whole pool of people will be jumping up a year to join me in competing for the tag over been waiting so long for. At age 66 I don't have much longer to keep playing their stupid con games. This is bull shit.

From: SDHNTR(home)
11-Oct-21
The link says nothing official, its just from another hunting website. And for the life of me I cant find anything on the matter on the AZGFD website. Nothing on the when and how... Guess it's still too early yet.

From: Tilzbow
11-Oct-21
^^^ Yep, I think Nate’s correct that this is not yet official ^^^

After 30 years in corporate America (pretty similar to gov’t) this appears to be a copy of an internal AZ Dept of Wildlife presentation proposing this addition that someone on another forum got passed to them by a AZ employee.

From: DonVathome
12-Oct-21
I will take it for sure. $$$$ is what all states are turning too, WY led the way. It sad but I am over stressing about it. I was lucky to start the game 21 years ago - and I have drawn a lot of good tags, and have a lot more in my near future.

From: creed
12-Oct-21

creed's Link
Here's a link to Sept 24th G&F commission meeting where it was addressed. It passed unanimously. You can pick it up around the 3:40 mark. There is about a 10 minute discussion.

From: BOWUNTR
12-Oct-21
Two accomplishments here... 1) point creep 2) more money/less work for F&G. Next... Ed F

From: Whip
12-Oct-21
I get that states are looking to increase ways of raising money. And I get that this will free up classrooms for kids and new hunters that really need asked benefit from Hunter Ed. That's fine. What bugs me is it punishes those of us who went through the expense and trouble to play by the old rules asked gained our point that way.

This will not really increase your chance of drawing the tag you're chasing. Most everyone in your point pool is going to move up right along with you. You will only be leaving behind those in your pool that already had their point but moving into a new pool with those that already had their point and are still there. It's effectively a wash for those that take the new course. You will be competing with the about same number of people. Point creep takes another jump and the only ones that are really affected are those that already had their HE point.

It would suck, but I'd pay the $300 too keep my place in line.

From: Whip
12-Oct-21
I'd be curious to know what percentage of NR applicants already have a HE point.

From: Whip
12-Oct-21
I'd be curious to know what percentage of NR applicants already have a HE point.

From: WapitiBob
12-Oct-21

From: WapitiBob
12-Oct-21

WapitiBob's embedded Photo
WapitiBob's embedded Photo

From: Willieboat
12-Oct-21
Glad I got my Hunter Ed point 26 years ago was well worth the trip to Arizona.

From: pav
13-Oct-21
Earned my hunter ed point in 2015 during the P&Y Convention...along with a bus full of other P&Y members. It was a good day!

From: WapitiBob
15-Oct-21

WapitiBob's Link
Ethical hunter info

https://www.hunter-ed.com/ethically-hunting-arizona/faq/

From: SDHNTR(home)
16-Oct-21
Disregard

From: SDHNTR(home)
16-Oct-21
So I completed the course. But now what? There's no instructions. Do I need to send my certificate to the AZGFD, or upload to my portal, or does the AZGFD automatically get notice of my completion.

From: BOHNTR
17-Oct-21
Did you pay?

From: creed
17-Oct-21
I got a reply email from AZGFD Hunting and Shooting Sports Program Director stating this program has not gone live so as of right now nothing can be done until it does.

From: SDHNTR(home)
17-Oct-21
Yes I paid. Or at least I put in my credit card on the Kalcomey site and everything seemed to go through. I don’t think I would have been able to progress through the course, take the exam, and get the certificate without paying. Yet where do I stand now? How does this get linked to AZGFD? I can’t be the only guinea pig here!

From: WapitiBob
17-Oct-21
Maybe they spent some time on the Internet and decided to round file your test.

From: Huntcell
17-Oct-21
Perhaps Az next money maker could be a fee for point transfer upon death.

Crazy you say….Wisconsin currently allows the deceased points to be transferred at no cost , which is a missed revenue opportunity on their part.

:::::: A surviving spouse, personal representative, guardian or trustee (designee) may authorize a transfer of awarded permits, harvest authorizations or accumulated preference points/preference category from a deceased individual to a minor.:::::

::::: Note: There is no limit to the number of times a minor may receive a transfer of permits or preference points under this authority. Applicants are limited to one permit (awarded or transferred) per year.:::::

From: SDHNTR(home)
18-Oct-21
Well I called the AZGFD today. The nice lady that answered the phone knew of the class, but had no idea as to the procedure upon completion. She transferred me to the phone line that addresses hunter ed questions. Of course this was just a recording with a message on various HE related topics. No way to speak to a real person, and no info on the new "Ethically Hunting in AZ" course. I left a message but we all know what happens when you leave any government entity a message... So yes, apparently I am the guinea pig here, a $300 one. My advice is to not be over eager like me and instead let them work out the kinks before taking this class.

From: BOWUNTR
18-Oct-21
It's encouraging to know that they outsourced it to Kalcomey... a private company that has their shit together. I would wager that the problem is within the bureaucracy of the AZGF. BTW did they have any questions about the use of radios/electronic communication or spotlights during the ethics portion of the exam? Ed F

From: Tilzbow
18-Oct-21
Kalkomey manages NV’s draw and in my opinion has done an excellent job with the interface. It’d be really cool if AZ transitions their draw to Kalkomey, because I think AZ’s draw system is the worst in the west.

From: JDECK
18-Oct-21
The bonus point will be applied to your AZGFD customer portal account within two weeks of completing the course.

This is stated when you sign up for the course. It also says AZGFD will be notified when you pass the course.

From: SDHNTR(home)
18-Oct-21
Ed, not that I recall.

JDeck, if that's the case, I missed it. That language should be repeated at the conclusion of the test. Or in the email they send you upon completion. Or on the Hunter Ed part of the AZGFD webpage that mentions the course.

From: midwest
08-Dec-21
Nate, did your point show up?

From: brettpsu
08-Dec-21
I took the course within a day or two of Nate and they are not showing up on my account yet.

From: brettpsu
08-Dec-21
delete

From: midwest
08-Dec-21
Well, that's concerning.

From: SDHNTR(home)
09-Dec-21
Nope! Is anyone surprised that AZ can’t get their tech sh!t together?

I called several days after completing the test, got tossed around until someone finally knew what I was talking about, left a message, and finally someone called me back saying I’d see the point in 2 weeks. That was many weeks ago. So I did some digging and found an email for Az hunters Ed. Tried that and got a vague response saying it would be updated within 30 days of the draw application deadline. So who knows?

From: smarba
09-Dec-21
Apparently no hurry on documenting the completion, but they were more than happy to take our $$$ right at the beginning when registering for the course!

From: SDHNTR(home)
10-Dec-21
Well, assuming the elk/antelope draw will be in early Feb 2022 as per usual, they only have about 3-4 more weeks before our HE points should be showing up to fit within the "30 days prior to draw deadline" time frame. For some reason, LOL, I lack confidence.

From: WapitiBob
10-Dec-21
The portal isn't linked to the database and isn't an indication of whether you have or haven't been issued the hunter ed point.

From: StickFlicker
10-Dec-21
They're too busy trying to destroy all things bowhunting to spend any time making their computer systems work properly.

From: Heat
10-Dec-21
Game and Fish in Arizona has turned into prostitutes. Anything for $$$. If they went with a contractor to help with the draws that's the best news I've heard out of them in a while for sure.

From: bghunter
10-Dec-21
How long did it take to take the course?

From: sticksender
10-Dec-21
Not to pile on, but It'd sure be nice if they'd finally connect the portal and the licensing database, and revamp their application system to make it fast & easy to use. Right now, user-experience wise, it's the most awkward and fumbled-up system of any western state. I gotta think if they'd hire one coder who was the right guy, it could be taken care of with relative ease.

From: BOWUNTR
11-Dec-21
From a reliable source: Here's what they are going to do with the 2022 electronic draw... nothing... no outsourcing... same government IT clowns, different year. Stand by for the shitshow. Ed F

From: Scoot
12-Dec-21
Predictable and pathetic.

From: creed
12-Dec-21
So along with bonus points changes it is being said they’re supposed to cap non-resident OTC tags at 10%. Not sure how I feel about that. I’ve got out-of-state friends that hunt here regularly

From: BOHNTR
12-Dec-21
Better than a draw for residents

From: BOHNTR
12-Dec-21

From: huntingdad
12-Dec-21
This is pathetic. When I taught hunter ed. I had to submit a cost breakdown sheet justifying the $5 charge for the class. Where they come up with those fees shows just where their prioities are. I wonder if they split the app fees from this latest pimping of our wildlife per the normal. ( half of the app fee is for hunter recruitment) How about $5 for res. and $10 for nonres? ( even thought I never penalized non res in my classes)

From: StickFlicker
12-Dec-21
And they wanted to get rid of all the OTC tags and move them to a drawing. Like adding all of those new applications to the system would have made it work even more smoothly...

From: Tilzbow
13-Dec-21
I paid for and took the course yesterday. As a retired corporate VP with a 500+ person global manufacturing organization that required ongoing training I know for certain they paid a pretty penny for the course development and platform. They’re going to need a lot of people to take the course to recover the development costs and pay for ongoing software contract fees. It was well designed and the content was relevant. It’s on Kalkomey platform (same system NV uses for their draw) which worked flawlessly and was a hell of a lot better than the AZ home grown draw system. It took several hours to complete and there’s a section test for each of 10 sections along with a 50 question final exam you’ve got to pass with 80% or higher (if you fail you can retake both the final and the section tests). The course has a full 8 hours of content and would probably take that long if you watched all the videos. I didn't take that long to complete but I also didn’t keep track of how much time it took. Content was all relevant and well presented but I didn’t really learn much that I didn’t already know. Some others will learn more while some will learn less. They did cover some reg’s that would be helpful if I had a tag in hand but I tend to study those a week or two before I leave for a hunt in a different state since these can change year to year. Nevertheless, I would’ve never spent the money or time if I knew I wouldn’t fall another year behind those who chose to complete the course.

From: BULELK1
13-Dec-21
Real nice follow-up Tiltz, long day it may be for sure! haha

Thanks,

Robb

From: smarba
13-Dec-21
Tilz summarized my experience. You can't just ignore it and let the course run and then take the quizzes, you have to keep pressing "next" to work your way through it. That said, it can be done in less than the 8-10 hours, but I agree it would probably take that long if you watched every video.

Given that it's really only an additional way for AZ to make $, I'm surprised there isn't an alternate course for $500 that consists of only one question: check this box if you'd like a bonus point. LOL

From: SDHNTR(home)
13-Dec-21
Check this box and pay your money if you'd like a theoretical bonus point! It's all still pie in the sky!

From: Tilzbow
13-Dec-21
The $500 option will be available next year followed by the “wash the AZDFG director’s car” option in 2023.

From: smarba
15-Dec-21
HAAA Tilz!!!

From: WapitiBob
15-Dec-21
points were updated yesterday

From: smarba
15-Dec-21
Mine does not show up; however, I only took the class just over a week ago.

From: brettpsu
15-Dec-21
My point did show up. Took the class 7-8 weeks ago.

From: SDHNTR(home)
15-Dec-21
My point finally showed up too.

From: BULELK1
04-Jan-22
Mine is there too.....

Good luck, Robb

From: Scoot
04-Jan-22
Mine is there too! This thread is a nice demonstration that getting this point doesn't really give you the advantage of an additional point so much as it keeps you from falling behind a point from the masses who will pay their money to the state for said point! Not so much an advantage as keeping you from having a disadvantage. Whatever... I paid my money to keep my place in line.

From: Tilzbow
04-Jan-22
It’d be interesting to know how many actually paid to keep from falling behind.

From: smarba
04-Jan-22
My point showed up. I agree with Scoot: all we really did is hold our position. AZDGF got a ton of $ and pi$$ed off everyone who had actually gone to AZ and taken the in-person class. And we're just right where we were before albeit with lighter wallets.

Additionally, I think this shenanigan will make those who paid for the point say to themselves "I was ready to quit AZ system, but dang it now that they suckered me in for another 3 bills I'm going to keep playing for a LONG time". So as stated it will be interesting to see how many paid to keep playing vs how many decided it was the last straw and are done when or if they finally draw a tag. I'm betting MORE people dig in and decide to keep going, which is good for AZ ($$) but bad for draw odds...

From: midwest
04-Jan-22
Finished and passed last night.

Was planning on flying out and doing the hunter ed point anyway. So I saved some money but now have a $300 watered down point.

From: WapitiBob
04-Jan-22
I drew the year after I went to kingman and AZ is back on the calendar for 2023. The money I've saved on licenses more than paid for the trip.

From: flyingbrass
05-Jan-22
Maybe next year they have a raffle for a bonus point? How crazy would that be? Anything for a dollar. I'm at 18 for mule deer and 17 for sheep and elk. I wish every state was like NM with no point systems.

From: Old School
06-Jan-22
Paid the money and took the class so I can hold my place in line.

From: 'Ike'
07-Jan-22
Let's go Brandon!

From: bigbuck
07-Jan-22
Well didnt see the point in paying the 300 as a NR ,i will be almost 70 this year and am going into this draw with my 12 BP for elk and antelope, hope to draw this year but thinking l will get there eventually ,I have had Bowhunters Safety and regular Hunters Safety many years ago,Arizona elk hunt was to be my retirement hunt after saving for 10 years to be able to do it I see it slowly slipping away as health concerns are starting to come into picture but as long as the one foot goes in front of the other will keep chasing that Dream hunt!!!

From: Tilzbow
07-Jan-22
I wonder if Jimmy John took the class?????

From: Don K
07-Jan-22
Why would he need the class? He isnt in the draw, hes buying the tags

From: WapitiBob
07-Jan-22
"i will be almost 70 this year and am going into this draw with my 12 BP for elk and antelope, hope to draw this year but thinking l will get there eventually ,I have had Bowhunters Safety and regular Hunters Safety many years ago,Arizona elk hunt was to be my retirement hunt after saving for 10 years to be able to do it I see it slowly slipping away as health concerns are starting to come into picture but as long as the one foot goes in front of the other will keep chasing that Dream hunt!!!"

Pretty much every reason to do it but it's your choice.

07-Jan-22
Well I paid my $300 and did the dance so I'm still in line.

From: Tilzbow
08-Jan-22
Don K,

It was a joke….

From: pav
08-Jan-22
You guys that bought a point...and I don't blame you at all...did more than hold your position. Draw odds for alot of people will be reduced as a result...those who took the class in AZ previously and those who choose not to buy the point.

From: creed
08-Jan-22
There’s a bunch of residents buying it.

From: Z Barebow
08-Jan-22

Z Barebow's embedded Photo
Z Barebow's embedded Photo
Hoover Dam was nice to visit also!

From: midwest
16-Jan-22

midwest's embedded Photo
midwest's embedded Photo
So the online hunter ed point shows up in a different column. Weird.

From: BOHNTR
16-Jan-22
Yup

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