Bowsite.com

Another recent study that has not yet been peer-reviewed found about half of 56 young and middle-aged adults "had no detectable neutralizing antibodies against the SARS-CoV-2 virus" six months after they were vaccinated with Comirnaty, the Times notes.

I have zero interest in the efficacy of any of the experimental drugs, I'm just interested in the possible long term adverse affects that we don't know about. I've had Covid and possess the antibodies, but that doesn't count for the powers that be. My work just mandated the experimental drugs, I'm not happy about it.

I say again..." if you're not free, you can never be safe"

It’s fall, go hunting!

Americans have received 394.3M doses of the various vaccines (https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-vaccine-doses-by-manufacturer?country=~USA). This translates to a death rate 0.0039% *if* they had all actually died due to the vaccine.

On the other hand, as of yesterday 724,720 Americans have died of COVID out of 44,781,066 confirmed COVID cases, which translates to a 1.62% case fatality rate ( https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/).

This translates to a 416x greater chance of dying from COVID than from the vaccine. But yeah, totally don't get the vaccine because of....facts.

What one should bear in mind, particularly when looking at data showing waning effectiveness against infection is that infection simply means have detectable levels of virus present while potentially being either fully asymptomatic, mildly symptomatic or severely ill to the point of requiring hospitalization. The last portion is why the maintenance of high protection against hospitalizations is the key metric to look at.

Not at all true. The linked article explains the challenges of using antibody testing in its "current" state (there are many different antibody test available with varying degrees of accuracy and output). But given the number of Americans who have recovered from COVID, one would think the government could come up with a standardized method to test for antibodies in lieu of vaccination.

Another related article that Mike from CT posted: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01377-8

Exactly Sums it all up

Bogus numbers. In Illinois the count as a Covid death ANYONE with died and tested postive for Covid, even though they didn't die FROM Covid.

I fully believe that number is inaccurate, but I also believe it is as close to a good number as we have. There were as undoubtedly people who died WITH COVID but did not die FROM COVID which results in over-counting. Likewise there were undoubtedly people who died early in the pandemic from COVID but were not tested which results in under-counting. When one looks at excess deaths during the pandemic, I think it is hard to argue that number is substantially inaccurate. The salient point here is that one would have to be on the crack pipe to suggest it is off by 415x, which was my point.

Chris Croce, Pfizer Senior Associate Scientist: “You’re protected for longer if you have natural COVID antibodies compared to the COVID vaccine. I work for an evil corporation…Our organization is run on COVID money.”

Those things matter when deciding whether or not to get vaccinated but have almost no bearing on my stance on mandates.

Over 10,000 employees.

Biden has destroyed every single thing he has touched so far...and just think he hasnt been in office for a year yet.

YUP! Brown Finger Joe at his best. And just think, he has a Congress full of morons like himself to help him along!

The worst is yet to come....get ready.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/28/pfizers-ceo-says-covid-vaccine-effectiveness-drops-to-84percent-after-six-months.html

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210921/Is-the-Pfizer-BioNTech-COVID-vaccine-still-effective-after-6-months.aspx

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-10-05/study-pfizer-vaccine-90-effective-against-hospitalization-for-6-months

The article you posted didn't even show when I did a Google search yesterday. It does today, but here are the next 4 links.

At this point it is a waste to say this, but the vaccine was designed to keep you from serious disease or dying. Not getting sick is a bonus.

I don't understand why either side of this argument cares what the other side does? Get a vax or don't but don't worry about the other guy.

That's because they're all one paycheck away from bankruptcy...

"You guys crack me up. Thousands of posts and neither side has convinced the other side. I suppose YOURS is going to be the magic one that does???!"

Truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged.

That all those people are not finacially responsible and live paycheck to paycheck? Or most of the working class is woefully underpaid and is living paycheck to paycheck because too much wealth is consolidated and hoarded at the very top?

But yes most Americans are struggling https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/01/11/just-39percent-of-americans-could-pay-for-a-1000-emergency-expense.html

Americans have more money now in this WSJ article but yet they are struggling? Who knows what to believe and there is the problem.

It's extraordinarily naive to leave this at "leave it to personal choice" and completely ignore the consequences of that strategy. We are still wrestling with event cancellations, private entities shuttering businesses or implementing their own additional restrictions, broader supply chain issues, hospitals at capacity, shortages of frontline workers, etc - none of which you can lay at the feet of the Biden administration.

Well there we have it, Mike will trust any lie, because it is the only lie available.

Pretty sure we have an endless well that people are drawing from on these threads, Mike.

- To the guys trying to beat around the bush by blaming a covid death on underlying conditions or past medical history, you can stop now. Those certainly contributed, but I am now seeing bad cases with no underlying conditions or past medical history. Last year's covid was hard on geriatrics, colored ethnicities, and overweight with comorbidities. This year's variety infects with no rhyme or reason. A few weeks ago, I had 4 patients in a row between the ages of 19 and 36 with no PMH. All conspiracy theories and bullshit aside, I would implore all of you to wash your hands frequently and social distance at the very least. We are seeing so many covid patients in Kansas now, they just leave them in the ER waiting room, exposing everyone else. Administration claims once the patient checks in, the hospital is responsible for them and we can no longer send them back to their vehicles until a room is available. Negative pressure rooms were maxed out months ago, so covid patients are placed in regular rooms and even hall beds now.

- One of the hospitals I work for posted this [image above] today on local news. 3 vaccinated patients out of 83

Those are three separate posts are all from Thornton. Some people can't find the answer when it's staring them in the face.

I also wanted to reiterate the point Bowfreak made, as I think is more meaningful to the assessment of vaccine performance, and it was a bit more buried in the article and links that have been posted which I would guess not everyone is reading.

"The peer-reviewed, Pfizer-funded study published Monday in the Lancet does offer good news, as the vaccine was still 90% effective at preventing hospitalizations across all age groups after six months"

https://youtu.be/WShX_fNXWKg

Vaccines aren't like batteries that lose charge and quit working. The virus mutates enough to where what your immune response was trained to do with the vaccine isn't the same, often the mutation isn't as deadly. This virus is a "cold virus" for all practical purposes (and for the sake of argument) AND NOT a smallpox, measles, or mumps.

As far as people being one paycheck away from bankruptcy - that means too many people live outside their means regardless of income. Their spending over exceeds their net income. They buy everything on credit and pay very little cash for it. They rely on that paycheck to keep ahead of the boulder chasing them while running downhill. They cannot afford to quit or be terminated, so they comply.

That's my angle soccer guy, Econ 101. Good fail at trying to misdirect...

"I wonder why no one is mentioning...." should be the title of this whole mess. Politicized right out of the gate. Run by the perpetual fear monger control freaks. Fauci says maybe no Christmas. Go. Away. Not sure what world he is in, we've been packing football stadiums across the country for sometime now. LETS GO BRANDEN!..(LOL Itshot!). Lollapalooza was no virtual event and attended by only the finest of elite overlords. Award shows, Met Galas..... Insanity extends to MILLIONS of illegals pouring across our "border" no papers at all much less vax papers, and shipped out across the country. But unvaxed CITIZENS will not be allowed to work and support their families. huh? In what world does that make any sense? Clown World. This world. About to start heating up the tar pot..... bring your own feathers....

NY requiring "show me your papers!" in restaurants and bars (and ID required....racist bastages.....) meanwhile NY subways to get there are literally shoulder to shoulder and no paperwork required. They'll fix that soon.... bar code neck tattoos coming your way. OK... not tattoos, just a harmless little mandatory chip implant. But best make sure it's a subway car and not a railroad car they load you onto....

WRT numbers and how things are counted..... Politics and money mongers make for odd parameters on how things are counted and how/what information gets widely released. VA hospital studies shows near HALF of the "covid hospitalized" were asymptomatic. Huh? Why were they in the hospital then? Oh. You mean they went to the hospital for something else and when tested, tested positive, DING! One more hospitalized covid case.... must be those anti-vaxers causing it....

I haven't trusted nor believed a thing since the "lock down for 2 weeks to flatten the curve..." turned into months..... now YEARS. Fauci and other politicians say "we have to get the numbers down to open up....." OK. Give me a number. No? They don't HAVE one. Covid is here. Not showing signs of going anywhere. So there will never be some "number" to get down to. It's best that way for everyone that they stay in power, er, control....

Once again, caught between scoundrels and cowards.

Covid is over 99.9% survivable.

The injections don’t keep you from contracting, transmitting, getting hospitalized, or dying from Covid.

With no injection, people have a 0% chance of long term health and safety effects from the injections (cancer, blood issues, heart issues, nervous system issues, infertility, etc, etc, etc).

Not in the least. I have looked at the from a number of different angles (sadly, none in the form of a Youtube video) and have come to the conclusion the 345K number is believable and supportable even if not exact. JAMA indicated that COVID deaths in 2020 were 345K (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778234). There were an estimated 477K excess deaths in the US during the pandemic portion of 2020, which makes the 345K number very believable - if not actually understated (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/half-million-excess-us-deaths-in-2020-hit-minorities-worse/ar-AAP8x9U?ocid=uxbndlbing).

Do you believe you have a more accurate and supportable COVID death count? If so, what is it and what is the rationale for believing it is more accurate than what I presented? Or are you just here to try to throw shade and have no interest in or ability to actually advance the discussion?

This is false. Comorbidities and risk factors play a significant part in outcomes, but the question is essentially "would this person still be alive if they didn't contract COVID" when attributing the cause of death to COVID. That is why the cause of death is listed as COVID and not something else.

And for the record, FDA Approval cannot be condensed down from 5-10 years into 18 months. 3 stages of clinical trials cannot be eliminated, no matter who large the "test" group is. The trials run long to see long term effects,

Also false and shows a clear understanding of the FDA approval process. Mike in CT said this best on a different thread. "When they clearly do not understand that what is involved in gaining 510k (FDA) clearance are demonstrable safety & efficacy and that time is not a prerequisite, but what had once been simply an unavoidable reality in acquiring the necessary data it's clear that they're interested in argument, not discussion."

When you are in the midst of a global pandemic affecting hundreds of millions of people, you can generate a whole lot of safety and efficacy data a lot faster than you normally can. The clinical trials needed for FDA approval have no time requirement with them, and for a vaccine administered twice over a couple of weeks long term side effects (ie, side effects that show up years later) are of minimal concern as that is not the way medicine or our bodies work. Safety and efficacy data has been delivered via the necessary clinical trials and the FDA has deemed in sufficient for EUA as well as full approval (for Comirnaty).

BEG the source is right at the bottom…

Respectfully, I suggest you heed Jason's (BEG) advice and acquaint yourself with the meanings of "relative rate reduction" and "absolute rate reduction." Once you do it's quite probable you'll feel at least a little foolish about that graph you posted.

Or, to quote Inigo Montoya "you keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means."....

While I agree with the first contention, the stats you provide are not support for it and are in fact a conspiracy theory that was raised in September 2020 and quickly dispelled. (https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/cdc-6-percent-covid-deaths). Funny it is still floating around.

COVID can cause a wide variety of severe complications (e.g. pneumonia, sepsis, blood clots, ARDS - see link), and if someone with COVID dies from COVID-induced pneumonia, it is not a case of someone dying FROM pneumonia but WITH COVID. Rather, it is an example of someone who died because they contracted COVID even though it was a secondary infection caused by COVID that ultimately killed them.

That is very different from someone dying from advanced stage cancer while being COVID positive, who died FROM cancer but WITH COVID.

More appropriate to say died from complications of covid, not from...

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. At the end of the day, they died because they caught COVID.

I know for some Covid means a bigger threat to their health but not everybody.

Correct. This is not what is done.

From the WHO:

A COVID-19 death is defined for surveillance purposes as a death resulting from a clinically compatible illness in a probable or confirmed COVID-19 case, unless there is a clear alternative cause of death that cannot be related to COVID-19 disease (e.g. trauma)

It isn’t a perfect science, but there is also likely to be as much undercounting as there is overcounting. The linked article sheds light on the process.

Vaccinated or unvaccinated, if you're a fatty, you're at risk (and not just from Covid alone). We just lost a vaccinated (obese) individual, in our little Hospital a couple weeks back (Covid Death). The News story was buried within 24 hours. Things that make you go "hmmmm"?

It may be best to listen to the few trying to give you good advice on the subject, those that actually do this for a living?

I'm done accepting ANYTHING that comes from Washington or government at any level.

So are we. What is actual US COVID death count again? Because you must know the official number since you claimed the one I posted was bogus (based on a video from left wing Youtube) but didn't offer an alternative.

No, but they absolutely will use the military as a captive launching pad to initiate policy and mandates they would love to impose on everyone.

There is a middle ground, it’s okay to admit these vaccines are safe and a good choice for the vast majority of the public while at the same time having reservations of a government mandating them to even enter grocery stores or restaurants. Its equally okay to admit our fear in the vaccine in the beginning was unfounded while at the same time making valid points that natural immunity has completely been tossed to the wayside as an idea. The shifting goalposts for arguments on these topics are growing tiring. The right went from calling this a flu (it isn’t), to saying the vaccine isn’t a vaccine, to it isnt FDA approved, to the FDA is approving something they know isn’t safe. The left went from mask to no mask, to vaccine/no mask, to vaccine/mask, to mandates, to loss of employment without…. It’s not going away, we have to find some common sense middle ground to move forward navigating the fine line between personal freedoms and freedoms for all/the greater good. Our country having a draft is rarely brought up in these forceful government mandate discussions which I find slightly ironic.

As a background, I’m fully vaccinated. I also contracted Covid last October. I don’t wear a mask in public unless a private business requests that I do so while on their property. It annoys me but it doesnt ruin my day. As a pharmacist my employer requires I wear one daily at work. I cynically think it’s more for public optics than to actually protect employees, but it doesn’t matter. I can go start my own pharmacy if my convictions against this requirement were strong enough. People always harp on individual rights while ignoring the individual rights of employers/businesses to set their own rules on their place of business. You can’t have it both ways.

Hey wait...YOU know everything, why don't you tell us what it is?

they do.

He did.

“ Not in the least. I have looked at the from a number of different angles (sadly, none in the form of a Youtube video) and have come to the conclusion the 345K number is believable and supportable even if not exact. JAMA indicated that COVID deaths in 2020 were 345K (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778234). There were an estimated 477K excess deaths in the US during the pandemic portion of 2020, which makes the 345K number very believable - if not actually understated (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/half-million-excess-us-deaths-in-2020-hit-minorities-worse/ar-AAP8x9U?ocid=uxbndlbing).”

He asked you to provide your number, and why you think it is right, since you don’t agree with this one. Yelling “LIES!” is not a number.

Whatever fits the convenient narrative to save face after using it as a political tool to influence an election outcome. They still didn't die from covid...

Randy Green, you should be happy and thankful that your response to Covid is no more than it is. Hundreds of thousands have had it much, much worse.

I’ve been charged in the past, by a few here, of being incapable of looking at Covid in anyway except a black and white perspective. But, it’s acceptable when the Covid police are proving their point.

“Six of one, half dozen of the other….”. Doesn’t matter. If you died while having Covid, it was Covid. SMH. And, willing to debate it until death collects him. You can’t make this stuff up.

I’ve been charged in the past, by a few here, of being incapable of looking at Covid in anyway except a black and white perspective. But, it’s acceptable when the Covid police are proving their point.

“Six of one, half dozen of the other….”. Doesn’t matter. If you died while having Covid, it was Covid. SMH. And, willing to debate it until death collects him. You can’t make this stuff up.

That's not what I said and that's not what's done.

Really? Here let me help you put two and two together to make 4.

By handing out "FREE" money to the tune of equaling more than some people were making while working, the free chit has kept a lot of "workers" on the side lines, asking for more free chit. Why go to work when the gov is there to pay you for doing nothing.

And mandating the vac OR lose your job has led to many picking the losing their job. Some chose to retire early, some chose to look else where for a different job. BUT the fact is the MANDATE of vac or no jobhas left many businesses losing workers.

Add on to those two things the fact that by ordering lock downs sure helped get the ball rolling. Totally changed how people spent their money and time. Everyone sitting at home ordering everything from fast food to furniture to be delivered right to their door.

Not hard to see how Biden and company are to blame for much of the mess this country is in. BUT go ahead and tell us all the good he is doing as a counter point. I'll be waiting to hear all the good things he's done.

Umm, didn't the first Covid stimulus checks go out, and the lockdowns start under the previous administration? I'm certainly no fan of Biden, but I fail to see how those things can be placed solely at his feet.

Matt

I'd also point out that the lockdowns were mostly mandated at the state level not at the federal level. That doesn't make them any more justified, but it's worth noting when trying to place blame for decisions made during the pandemic.

Matt

That’s the point goelk. Absolutely nothing. Covid is not even on my radar. I’m more afraid of seasonal allergies. You sir are the one wetting down one leg and stepping in it with the other.

Sorry, which mandate is this? Federal mandate has yet to go into effect.

Add on to those two things the fact that by ordering lock downs sure helped get the ball rolling. Totally changed how people spent their money and time. Everyone sitting at home ordering everything from fast food to furniture to be delivered right to their door.

Which lockdowns did Biden and the federal government order? Everything I experienced was driven by local governments and private entities.

Apparently you missed my last post. Furthermore, I didn't blame the lockdowns on Trump, I merely pointed out they started under his watch.

Look, there were mistakes galore made at every level of government, as well as private entities, in response to Covid during the last administration and continuing under the current administration, IMO. I just have to shake my head when I hear someone trying to blame one or the other for this mess.

Matt

This stuff is verifiable guys. How on God's green earth do health care systems get overloaded from nothing?

If there's one thing we can all agree on - it's the government's inability to basically do anything well or efficiently. If they have somehow managed to pull off this giant ruse and make the world look like it's dealing with some crazy virus that really isn't crazy, and they SIMULTANEOUSLY managed to do this with every other government on this planet, than call me crazy but I wouldn't even be mad. I'd just be like "damn fellas, I'm more impressed than anything." They finally did it. Think about it. Do you have THAT level of confidence in your government? And the Canadian government with the imbecile we've had running our show? Like seriously, zoom out, look at the whole situation and give it some thought.

Would remind me of Anchorman. "You pooped in the refrigerator? And you ate the whole wheel of cheese? How'd you do that? Heck, I'm not even mad; that's amazing."

This. 100% this. APauls for the win.

You can't one one hand say the government is inept, inefficient, ignorant, and incompetent and on the other claim they are pulling off some sort of coordinated ruse in the name of advancing some specific cause that involves multiple nations, state governments, local governments, the pharmaceutical industry, all the nations healthcare providers, and the bulk of the private enterprises in this country.

The far more likely answer is the virus is serious (plenty of data to support that) and requires serious attention. Governments are concerned about balancing the welfare of their constituents - both their physical welfare and their economic welfare - and these are conflicting priorities (and government is still an inefficient mess). Private entities have to navigate the complexities regarding profits, employee health, liabilities, legal action, etc etc. It's not easy.

I've said it before, I believe everyone is trying their best and has good intentions and the main priority in all this is how do we get back to "normal" without killing a bunch of people.

Matt

That sure looks to be what you said. Are we to believe you cite the WHO and CDC for your position and, didn’t mean what you said when correcting HDE? I’ll take that if you insist. But, I’m almost out of salt.

Saying somebody died from covid with other pre-existing ailments is like saying it rained because you were wearing green pants that day, although rain was already in the forecast...

I never corrected HDE. I agree with him that it would likely be more appropriate to say "died from complications associated with COVID." That is what is implied by "died from COVID." The point was, whatever you want to call it, they died because they caught COVID.

What I also tried to make clear is that just because someone had COVID and died it doesn't mean it gets counted as a COVID death unless the death "result[s] from a clinically compatible illness." In cases where the death is not from a clinically compatible illness, it is not counted as a COVID death (even if the person has COVID).

So no, the comment "If you died while having Covid, it was Covid" is not how the process works and it's not how numbers are counted.

“There are also some additional deaths that happen in someone who happened to be COVID positive, but where the COVID infection had nothing to do with the deaths,” she said. “So we are at IDPH trying to remove those obvious cases where the COVID diagnosis was not the reason for the death. If there was a gunshot wound, if there was a motor vehicle accident, we know that that was not related to the COVID positive status.

“We are trying to make sure that things that aren’t related at all to the COVID diagnosis are removed, but if someone has another illness, like heart disease, and then had a stroke or other event, it’s not as easy to separate that and say COVID didn’t exacerbate that existing illness. That would not be removed from the count,” she added..

Her demeanor seems to have changed.

Matt

I don't know who that doctor is but his statements on benefits of vaccines after having covid makes me question some of the things he testified to.

As to your first video and "political handlers." Everything with Hackbow is a conspiracy. It is always his go to response. Everyone in government has ulterior motives and is out to get you. What the hell does Dr. Joe or Jane Doe with the the CDC or FDA have to personally gain in this one world conspiracy. Seriously, you need to get a different drum to beat on.

If you have evidence that proves she is lying then post it. Otherwise, STFU.

Ironically, some of those same people choose to work for the government, or for government contractors. It's kinda like pissing on the hand that feeds you, IMO.

Matt

IDK, it's easy for me to blame this administration for todays current mess that is only getting worse by the day. I mean truly, can someone, anyone, name one dang thing that this administration has done that has made this country better in any way, shape, or form? On the flip side, it's very easy to name a whole trove of things that have only gotten worse and getting worse by the day and heaven forbid if the Dems. get this socialist spending bill passed.

Yes, the "government" has done some shady s@#t and lied to the American people. Biden did it with the afghan withdraw (based on Milley's testimony under oath) and Trump did it on a daily basis. But that does not mean that everything the government does is a conspiracy or a lie. Stop being intellectually lazy and find a different drum.

You could have easily looked up that woman in the video and investigated what she said to get the whole story. But you never do because it fits your world view and you go pound that drum again and again and again. You and Woods Walker must be related. He has also posted that video many times (even after knowing the whole story) and points and says see...see. SEE WHAT????

Gee KS, you sure like telling people that don't agree with you, to "STFU"! But I must say, it does help to push your agenda, cuz it makes you seem really mean and scarey, and it makes me believe your drivel is accurate. As I said before perhaps you should GFY!?

She never changed her original message. You merely cherrypicked quotes without the full context of what she said, which I posted.

And what a slap in the face your post is to the healthcare workers that have been battling this pandemic on the frontline. I've seen firsthand in friends and family who are nurses, doctors, dieticians, PAs, etc the effect this has had on their mental wellbeing. Guess they've all got handlers too...or you're just the poster child for insensitivity and you have no clue what you're talking about.

FYI- I’m actually a pretty nice guy.

Ben, that is an excellent statement. Such common sense is rare these days.

A Dr. told me I had a torn rotator cuff from throwing a basketball full court. He even had an arthrogram done which is the definitive test to diagnose. He wanted to schedule surgery for later that week. Not just any Dr. the team orthopedic surgeon for the seattle Mariners at the time. I got a second opinion and was diagnosed with severe tendonitis and put on a two week course of anti inflammatories and never had another issue.

Two years ago I had numbness in my fingers. The orthopedic surgeon Diagnosed me with stenosis after X-rays and an MRI and wanted to schedule surgery. Got a second opinion. Zero stenosis and was told that my back and neck were the healthiest he had ever seen for someone my age. I had changed the way I was doing chest flys and had pulled a muscle in my back . The swelling caused pressure on the nerves. Anti inflammatories for a week all better.

Go a head and trust doctors. Medical mistakes contribute to nearly 100k deaths a year. Watch the documentary “bleed out” to see how the system works if you just trust it.

Matt

Here's my own anecdotal story. My father contracted Lymes disease when there was less known about it than now. 3 MDs didn't get the diagnosis right. Back then there was no internet, so my Mother went to the library, researched his symptoms , and came up with the correct diagnosis.

But, anecdotal stories are just that

Matt

Agreed. It’s not hard at all to understand.

“There are also some additional deaths that happen in someone who happened to be COVID positive, but where the COVID infection had nothing to do with the deaths,” she said. “So we are at IDPH trying to remove those obvious cases where the COVID diagnosis was not the reason for the death. If there was a gunshot wound, if there was a motor vehicle accident, we know that that was not related to the COVID positive status.

“We are trying to make sure that things that aren’t related at all to the COVID diagnosis are removed, but if someone has another illness, like heart disease, and then had a stroke or other event, it’s not as easy to separate that and say COVID didn’t exacerbate that existing illness. That would not be removed from the count,” she added.

GG - should we not be free to question them?

Apparently not, according to you.

“ Guess I have enough respect for the highly educated black female physician to take her at her word and not mansplain her original statement away.”

But thanks for remembering, and for your condolences.

Matt

Whitey, by getting multiple second opinions you’re saying you trust doctors. Nothing wrong with that, no doctor is infallible. I went through 4 cardiologists before finding the right one to help my condition.

I didn’t even know deviancy was a science.

Closer to the truth. She either didn’t understand the process and misspoke or - in the 43 second clip you posted - she was taken out of context.

As far as why I don’t question her clarified statements, it’s because I’ve done my research and heard from countless medical professionals on how COVID deaths are counted.

Go ahead though, believe in your 43 second clip (that was later clarified to reflect reality) from someone working in a bureaucratic capacity. And her political handlers. And the “big lie.” And I’m sure all of these other medical professionals I get my info from are in on it too and have been properly coached.

Link , You are hallucinating about my inner thoughts and motives. Just ask me what believe and I will tell you where appropriate.

Maybe it will continue to accomplish nothing

KS Deviancy. Surprised you touched that one ? But it's October and weird is just starting to raise it's ugly head

IS NOBODY HUNTING ?

I'm scouting, not hunting, So far Ive found a few mature bucks with less than impressive head gear. Nothing that inspires me to get serious about killing. There's always hope, though.

Matt

LOL!!! Great observation! Love it.

Here in the land of the great white dictator(Illinois), I’ve been hunting once. Went out on opening day for a few hours, mosquitoes and all. The neighbor was picking his corn that very evening so I’m hoping to pick up a few more bucks on the cameras now.

nevermind, based on last season's stats you'll win the lottery then get hit by lightning while swimming to shore after a shark attack in kansas before you'll suffer from the traditional epidemic

tell that to the hospitals, medical device manufacturers, funeral homes, crematoriums, and casket manufacturers. theyre all making bank.

no, but many of those that were infected, which is the source of "natural immunity," ended up that way. gaining immunity for covid is pretty much an either-or proposition. you either gain it through infection, or gain it through vaccination. both options create customers for someone.

With respect to your job, are you not going to have the choice to get weekly tests in lieu of getting the vaccine?

Matt

hospitals and funeral homes arent the only entities that stand to benefit financially from those infected with covid. not by a long shot.

I have three very close friends that were injected and have Covid right now. One is in the hospital.

So far the count for people I know personally that have not been vaccinated and have had Covid and not been hospitalized is over 30. One that was hospitalized who is in her 90’s and one in her 70’s. Both of the ladies that were hospitalized are still alive.

I know at four people that have had major health issues after taking the shot, including two relatives that almost didn’t make it. Have had several outbreaks at our office with “vaccinated” people.

These injections are not vaccines.

Those that are continuing to push the wearing of ineffective masks, lockdowns, and unsafe injections are committing crimes against humanity.

Totalitarian communism is the virus. Covid is just how it is being shoved up our backsides…

in your opinion, what are true vaccines? which of those is 100% effective? is the flu vaccine 100% effective? is the shingles vaccine 100% effective? is the measles vaccine 100% effective? are those vaccines?

The old definition included the word "immunity"

The Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary defines immunity as “a condition of being able to resist a particular disease.”

Taber’s Medical Dictionary defines it as, “Protection from diseases, [especially] from infectious diseases.”

Harvard’s medical dictionary defines it as, “The body’s ability to resist infection and disease.”

The Oxford Concise Medical Dictionary echoes all of them, saying immunity is “the body’s ability to resist infection.”

Therefore, the CDC's choice to use "protection" instead of "immunity" in their definition of a vaccine is consistent with every medical definition of immunity.

But, again, social media has grabbed onto the fact that the CDC changed the definition as proof that the Covid vaccines aren't real vaccines. A lot of nonsense over nothing.

Matt

It common for people to think of a vaccine as being effective enough to where they basically they have immunity. Most of the vaccines people are familiar with have that type of efficacy

Lou: ‘Why not?’

Bud: ‘Well because you’re unvaccinated.’

Lou: ‘But I’m not sick.’

Bud: ‘It doesn’t matter.’

Lou: ‘Well, why does that guy get to go in?’

Bud: ‘Because he’s vaccinated.’

Lou: ‘But he’s sick!’

Bud: ‘It’s alright. Everyone in here is vaccinated.’

Lou: ‘Wait a minute. Are you saying everyone in there is vaccinated?’

Bud: ‘Yes.’

Lou: ‘So then why can’t I go in there if everyone is vaccinated?’

Bud: ‘Because you’ll make them sick.’

Lou: ‘How will I make them sick if I’m NOT sick and they’re vaccinated.’

Bud: ‘Because you’re unvaccinated.’

Lou: ‘But they’re vaccinated.’

Bud: ‘But they can still get sick.’

Lou: ‘So what the heck does the vaccine do?’

Bud: ‘It vaccinates.’

Lou: ‘So vaccinated people can’t spread covid?’

Bud: ‘Oh no. They can spread covid just as easily as an unvaccinated person.’

Lou: ‘I don’t even know what I’m saying anymore. Look, I’m not sick.’

Bud: ‘Ok.’

Lou: ‘And the guy you let in IS sick.’

Bud: ‘That’s right.’

Lou: ‘And everybody in there can still get sick even though they’re vaccinated.’

Bud: ‘Certainly.’

Lou: ‘So why can’t I go in again?’

Bud: ‘Because you’re unvaccinated.’

Lou: ‘I’m not asking who’s vaccinated or not!’

Bud: ‘I’m just telling you how it is.’

Lou: ‘Nevermind. I’ll just put on my mask.’

Bud: ‘That’s fine.’

Lou: ‘Now I can go in?’

Bud: ‘Absolutely not.’

Lou: ‘But I have a mask!’

Bud: ‘Doesn’t matter.’

Lou: ‘I was able to come in here yesterday with a mask.’

Bud: ‘I know.’

Lou: ‘So why can’t I come in here today with a mask? ... If you say ‘because I’m unvaccinated’ again, I’ll break your arm.’

Bud: ‘Take it easy buddy.’

Lou: ‘So the mask is no good anymore.’

Bud: ‘No, it’s still good.’

Lou: ‘But I can’t come in?’

Bud: ‘Correct.’

Lou: ‘Why not?’

Bud: ‘Because you’re unvaccinated.’

Lou: ‘But the mask prevents the germs from getting out.’

Bud: ‘Yes, but people can still catch your germs.’

Lou: ‘But they’re all vaccinated.’

Bud: ‘Yes, but they can still get sick.’

Lou: ‘But I’m not sick!!’

Bud: ‘You can still get them sick.’

Lou: ‘So then masks don’t work!’

Bud: ‘Masks work quite well.’

Lou: ‘So how in the heck can I get vaccinated people sick if I’m not sick and masks work?’

Bud: ‘Third base.

if a vaccine causes a person to produces antibodies, they have immunity. what level of immunity or for how long is a different matter, and so is a general misconception about what vaccines are capable of. efficacy rates for the flu vaccine average about 40%. mumps vaccine is about 78%. chicken pox vaccine is about 90%.

Clearly some are still in the "half the people that get covid are hospitalized" category of government/media driven fear and panic. SMH.... Mortuaries will get their work. People..... all people die. Every. Single. One. I've lost 4 relatives in the last year. Two to cancer, one heart attack and a liver failure. None to covid. Lucky I guess, I'm told nothing is worse than dying of Trump induced covid... even then we have elitist media "entertainers" literally wishing it on some. Who wouldn't want to be part of such a wonderful group of people....

I don't recall the ANNUAL flu shot being called a vaccine. It was just a flu shot. Polio etc. was a vaccine. One and done. Immune. Forever. This covid shot, no matter how it was marketed, is lining up to be far more along the lines of a flu shot as the variants are changing in corners of the country and the globe as we speak. It's one reason we need an annual flu shot, the virus is not the same this year as last year. Has the flu gone away? Last I heard it's still around..... killed nearly as many children last year as covid. FWIW I've never had a flu shot in my life. But also can't remember the last time I had it. . Anyway, looks like it wasn't a "vaccine" before they changed the rules so as to CALL it one? Classic leftist Clown World. Give the shot a pronoun.....

They are lying to us about natural immunity, by omission if nothing else. When questioned they look down and shuffle their feet then change the subject. They have the numbers and the facts. You can't tell me they don't. Such discussions and questions "complicate" their narrative I'm told. And you are not allowed to question the narrative. You will be silenced, punished and canceled. You're selfish (is that better or worse than being called a racist?) you just want to kill people. Anything outside direct control needs to brought under control by whatever means possible, even lies. For your own good. Questions.... directly question their authority. Can't have that.

Even Pfizer scientists admit it. But no one wants the facts and truth publicized. There is a Cult involved. As well as billions of dollars on the line. All zealots have their reasons......

Last spring someone in my family got COVID and holy crap it spread fast and 7 members of my family got it within about a week and we have the ability to quarantine really easily with several second homes, something many people don't have the option to properly quarantine. Fortunately none of them developed severe symptoms and all made a full recovery. Scary thing is my dad was 79 years old, so in a pretty high risk age group. Everyone in my family has since been vaccinated and most of them felt bad for a few days; I was the only one who experienced lasting side effects.

That's an uncharacteristically ignorant comment from you, TD. The term "flu shot" is slang for the proper name which is Influenza vaccine.

Matt

It hasn’t even been two weeks since they lifted restrictions. I’d pump the brakes a little.

1. What is a common comorbidity that can triple the rate of hospitalizations?

2. How do the 2 countries compare in this comorbidity?

In this as in most analyses, context is everything.

Apparently they can be when you remove the "immune" status from the definition (which was done, swapping it with "protection") as they are not "immunizations" like polio and some others are. These shots give immunity, not just "resistance" or temporary "protection", as these "vaccines" only provide. Numbers of vaccinated folks contracting the virus is climbing daily. Not rare "breakthrough" cases as they were first labeled. People hold up those immunizations as their flags when they are not comparable. From CDC (which I trust as far as I can throw it.... they are now even in charge of private property, evictions, etc, W...T...F.... try listening to that nutball lady in charge, she's as crazy as House Plant...) "Definition of Terms. Immunity: Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected. Vaccine: A preparation that is used to stimulate the body's immune response against diseases."

Regardless, studies are showing natural immunity being as or more effective than a shot. And all you hear is either crickets or a full blown deflection when "officials" are asked. Getting real tired of that yellow rain. Seems the whole world is getting a bit tired of it as well....

Lets Go Brandon!

What do you think the flu shot is a shot of??

I urge you to research the medical definition of "immunity". Let me know what you find.

Matt

Their definition from "immunity" was changed to "protection" just recently, Sept I think? And that sure seems to be the fact. For what reason? Had nothing else to do? Chits 'n giggles? No, because it really doesn't provide immunity in the true sense. Some "protection" at best. It HAD to be changed or my guess somebodies azz was gonna be sued.

It is NOT an immunization. By medical CDC definition. There is the "immune system" and "vaccines that stimulate the immune system" giving some variable level of protection. They are not immunity from the disease, as an immunization would give.

Today is a paperwork day. I flippin' HATE paperwork..... =D

you do realize that immunity and protection are synonymous, right?

the cdc glossary of terms says the following...

"Immunity: Protection against a disease. There are two types of immunity, passive and active. Immunity is indicated by the presence of antibodies in the blood and can usually be determined with a laboratory test. See active and passive immunity."

"Vaccine: A suspension of live (usually attenuated) or inactivated microorganisms (e.g. bacteria or viruses) or fractions thereof administered to induce immunity and prevent infectious diseases and their sequelae. Some vaccines contain highly defined antigens (e.g., the polysaccharide of Haemophilus influenzae type b or the surface antigen of hepatitis B); others have antigens that are complex or incompletely defined (e.g. Bordetella pertussis antigens or live attenuated viruses)."

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/terms/glossary.html#i

In the medical world "immunity" is defined as:

The Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary defines immunity as “a condition of being able to resist a particular disease.”

Taber’s Medical Dictionary defines it as, “Protection from diseases, [especially] from infectious diseases.”

Harvard’s medical dictionary defines it as, “The body’s ability to resist infection and disease.”

The Oxford Concise Medical Dictionary echoes all of them, saying immunity is “the body’s ability to resist infection.”

Therefore, the CDC's choice to use "protection" instead of "immunity" in their definition of a vaccine is consistent with every medical definition of immunity.

But, again, social media has grabbed onto the fact that the CDC changed the definition as proof that the Covid vaccines aren't real vaccines. A lot of nonsense over nothing.

Matt

Won’t like what? The easily debunked story Treeline posted?

A lot of you should take the extra time to research the clearly fake news you are putting out there.

I don't like it , but for different reasons from what the BS DRs Like or dislike

Its also irritaing watching this pathetic leader we have and even worse is the people that voted for this idiot. Im not a Democrat or Republican but I have enough sense to see how rediculous this administration is. I guess the Republicrats are just gonna sit around a twittle their thumbs while he wrecks this nation. If you want to get the Covid vaccine I dont blame anybody for that, I may end up getting it myself. If you dont thats fine too..should be our choice..not some tyrant making us do it. Blows my mind how so many people will vote for their own demise and try to explain it away

Seems that even using the much lower number from the CDC’s VAERS system of around 15,000 deaths from the injections, that would be too many.

More deaths are definitely being reported by VAERS for these injections than for all vaccines for everything since 1991.

How in the world can that not give you at least some pause to think about what is going on here?

And those of you that are so rabidly pushing for everyone to get these shots?

For a virus that, in the only confined tests (cruise ships back in 2020) showed less than 1% mortality for test subjects with an average age of over 70?

The acute deaths are not enough for you to ask why?

What is going to happen to those injected over the next 2, 5, or 10 years?

Is it worth it?

It makes me more than sick to realize how far our once great Nation has fallen.

Correlation is not causation.

More deaths are definitely being reported by VAERS for these injections than for all vaccines for everything since 1991.

These are also one of the most administered and certainly the most closely tracked vaccines in history. Again, all the VAERS deaths are not all because of these injections - nowhere close to it.

How in the world can that not give you at least some pause to think about what is going on here?

400 million doses have been administered in the USA. 6 billion worldwide. The data we have confirms that this is demonstrably some of the safest vaccines we’ve ever rolled out.

For a virus that, in the only confined tests (cruise ships back in 2020) showed less than 1% mortality for test subjects with an average age of over 70?

That’s not even close to right. The infection fatality rate is about 1.5-2% for the entire population. Looking at folks age 75, the infection fatality rate is about 5%. At 85, it jumps to 15%.

What is going to happen to those injected over the next 2, 5, or 10 years?

Very likely nothing. Long term side effects come from long term drug usage - like taking pills daily or smoking cigarettes daily. The vaccine is eliminated from our bodies in 72 hours. There isn’t anything left of it to do anything 2, 5, or 10 years down the line.

Is it worth it?

For a whole host of reasons like protecting the at risk and getting life and economy back to normal, yes. A thousand times yes.

it would be if that what vaers said...but it's not. it doesn't say the deaths were from the injections.

Like all the way back to when George Washington mandated his troops be inoculated against smallpox?

Exactly. All it says is the got the vaccine and died. Not that the vaccine had anything to do with their deaths. Straight from the HHS FAQ website on VAERS…

“VAERS is not designed to detect if a vaccine caused an adverse event, but it can identify unusual or unexpected patterns of reporting that might indicate possible safety problems requiring a closer look.”

They are probably turning over in their graves knowing that this evil has seeped so deeply into this once great nation…

CDC: "Definition of Terms. Immunity: Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected." Word for word. So no covid infection with this vaccine? Clearly not true, by their own admission it's quickly down to effective in the 40% range within months. (getting down to near flu vaccine range) And I'd put my money on it won't stop falling as months go by. "Breakthough" cases my wrinkles. Vaccine mandates my azz.

Again, polio is considered an immunization. For all practical matters, once immunized you are immune for life. True immunity, can't catch it even if exposed. Whatever the PR dept wants to call this it is not immunity from covid as per the CDC's own definition. Not even close. You can make up whatever definition you want for immune. Give it a pronoun for all I care. Exposure without being infected is the CDC's. They didn't say sometimes, or maybe or sorta... they said "without". Many vaccines do just that. Not this one.

My daughter and son in law both vaccinated several months ago, two shots, Moderna. Both got covid last month. All tested. Along with my teenage granddaughter, who was not vaxed. FWIW my teenage granddaughter had the easiest time of it. All became ill but none went to the hospital, which is what happens 99% of the time regardless. Where was that immunity folks claim it gives? The "you can be exposed to it without becoming infected"? "Protection".... maybe, who knows. But not immunity.

Again, I didn't change the definition last month. THEY did. And THEY changed it from "produce immunity" to "produce protection". Argue with me all you like, no matter. Those are the facts. They remain the same.

Again, I think the CDC pretty much has terminal cranial/rectal disorder with a side order of megalomania. And the WHO is bought and paid for, an arm of the CCP. (no, not Daltrey and Townshend but they likely are too. OK, maybe not Peter...) But for some folks they are God.... THE unquestionable authority.... even regarding rental property. And seen so no matter how much they lie and get wrong. Much like the clergy of many cults and religions.

What....ehva.....

Still not a word from them about what may be the most effective "immunity" or protection or resistance, possibly several times better and proving to last longer..... natural antibodies. Because they have no control or authority over that.

so true. fear of the covid19 vaccine is rampant. same was true for the smallpox and polio vaccines...now theyre being called a miracle.

i get it and i tend to agree. on the flip side, part of the reason the polio vaccine was so effective is because it was required for all students in order to start school.

For a virus with a less than 1% chance of dying?

How far the mighty have fallen.

Hyped up…. a lot of the time.

Imaginary… more than most could or would want to believe.

Please tell me what rights I’ve given up?

For a virus with a less than 1% chance of dying?

You have quoted and posted more information than anyone on this thread, but yet you want to call me lost? Hilarious.

I'll ask again, is your employer not giving you a choice to have weekly Covid tests in lieu of getting vaccinated? I thought that was part of the federal mandates. No?

Matt

Lay em out, TGBow. I’ll start with one. Nobody forced me to get a vaccine. I did it of my own free will and volition. There are plenty of people who have chosen not to get them, and you still have a choice and say in the matter. So what right did I give up by choosing to get vaccinated?

BEG- I was thinking the same thing. I willing got the vaccine and will get the booster as soon as it is available. My choice.

I think it’s hilarious that TG and Treeline scream about giving up rights when they are willing to participate In the destruction of our most precious and foundational rights we have…voting. I don’t here either of them complain one bit about the Trump trying to step on Americans rights and freedom to vote. “Just find me 11,000 votes. That’s all I’m asking for.”

They are lost in the ether of a false god.

i know what fear you were talking about. i share that fear, thats why i don't like a vaccine mandate. but it's never as simple as people make it out to be. rights are rights until they infringe on someone elses rights. do you feel the same way about the polio and smallpox vaccines?

not all of them are. some aren't offering the testing option. but then again, private businesses also have rights. funny things those rights.

Why the basic right of existence.

Mandating injections of experimental substances that are proving to be ineffective and unsafe into people just to work, earn a living, and be a part of society. Whether they want or need it or not?

If you believe in that, you are as sick and twisted as any Nazi, Fascist, or Communist that ever existed. The kind of sickness that has resulted in the mass murdering of millions of people in our history.

This devaluing the basic right of existence is what has caused the greatest human murder and mayhem by other humans in our history.

I do not care if you or anyone else freely chooses to inject yourself with any substance, as long as you don’t injure another person or their property.

It takes a very twisted logic to assume that people who do not do that are in any way injuring you or your personal property. Particularly for this virus that is so mild that 90+ percent of the people that get it don’t even need hospitalization and the shot doesn’t prevent you from contracting or transmitting it!

Treeline- Have you gotten the vaccine?

Well, I guess when you don’t believe the virus kills anyone, this makes sense. But for the masses who separate fact from fiction, this statement is particularly ironic given we are discussing decisions being made to battle a pandemic that has killed over 700,000 Americans.

I do not care if you or anyone else freely chooses to inject yourself with any substance, as long as you don’t injure another person or their property.

Here’s an analogy - I’m sure lots of people get behind a wheel drunk and don’t kill anyone - should we make that legal too? Saying anyone should be free to do anything as long as it doesn’t injure anyone is a gross oversimplification of the reality of those tasked with looking after the welfare of this citizens of this country.

It takes a very twisted logic to assume that people who do not do that are in any way injuring you or your personal property. Particularly for this virus that is so mild that 90+ percent of the people that get it don’t even need hospitalization and the shot doesn’t prevent you from contracting or transmitting it!

Again, not a surprising conclusion for someone who has posted more false information surrounding this disease and clearly doesn’t understand the science or the data behind it.

does an employer have the right to require a drug test and terminate someone if they fail it?

there are valid arguments to be made against vaccine mandates but these arent among them. this just shows you are unwilling to face reality.

It appears you're now conflating what many would consider God-given rights with those enumerated in the Constitution. These are two entirely separate concepts and as such should be debated separately. I would respectfully submit that the question of what Constitutional rights have been lost is still as yet unaddressed.

"Mandating injections of experimental substances that are proving to be ineffective and unsafe into people just to work, earn a living, and be a part of society. Whether they want or need it or not?"

There is nothing now, and for all intents and purposes there never was anything "experimental" about the vaccines; repetition of a falsehood does not confer legitimacy it merely weakens any claims of credibility the person repeating the falsehood may have had.

Given the reams of data about safety and efficacy labeling claims to the contrary as pure denialism is probably an understatement. These threads and comments such as that keep recalling to my mind a quip that goes "don't bother me with facts, my minds made up."

It is the final mention in that paragraph where you do have a point and one I've supported consistently; we have the means to assess immune status and should do so as those with natural immunity are demonstrably better protected (antibodies to multiple sites on the virus along with CMI) and evidence of effective immunity should preclude any in that group from a vaccine mandate.

"If you believe in that, you are as sick and twisted as any Nazi, Fascist, or Communist that ever existed. The kind of sickness that has resulted in the mass murdering of millions of people in our history."

I think whenever anyone needs to resort to making those kinds of claims it's as close to a mortal lock as is possible that the position they're arguing is indefensible and quite possibly intellectually bankrupt.

"This devaluing the basic right of existence is what has caused the greatest human murder and mayhem by other humans in our history."

Again, separate this from the issue of constitutional infringement and you have a valid point; whenever human life is devalued for whatever reason humanity suffers harm, perhaps irreparable.

"I do not care if you or anyone else freely chooses to inject yourself with any substance, as long as you don’t injure another person or their property."

I can't add anything to what Jason (BEG) had to say about this.

"It takes a very twisted logic to assume that people who do not do that are in any way injuring you or your personal property. Particularly for this virus that is so mild that 90+ percent of the people that get it don’t even need hospitalization and the shot doesn’t prevent you from contracting or transmitting it!"

Actually all it takes is about 0.1 seconds on a search engine to examine the data on who is being hospitalized, who is taking up the majority of ICU beds and the burden, both in terms of cost and personal toll (to frontline healthcare professionals) to the US Healthcare system to see how hopelessly misinformed a person would have to be to argue the point.

The point you and others seem to miss with alarming consistency is that looking at overall infection/mortality statistics paints a misleading picture on the pathogenicity of this virus. It's only when you view by age demographic (or expand to severely immunocompromised populations) that you realize the cost in lives; either lost or severely damaged. I know there are multiple posters on this forum who, like me have been living on the frontlines of this pandemic since the onset. They are all too aware of the crushing burden on hospitals and especially the doctors, nurses, PA's, EMT's and others who, quite frankly, I'm amazed are still standing given what they've faced the past 2 years.

To all who insist on posting a few anecdotal examples to poo-poo reality all I can say is it's akin to going to the beach, picking up a single grain of sand and claiming you know the exact dimensions and make-up of every other single grain of sand on the entire beach.

Not even close....

Spot on. Anyone arguing that COVID isn’t deadly or that the vaccines are ineffective and unsafe clearly isn’t approaching this from a well researched position and clearly has spent more time looking for sources that confirm existing biases than truly diving into the science and the data.

You want to argue government boundaries, that’s fine and something I’ll entertain. For most things, I wish the government would just get out of the way. But simply speaking, when this country is under attack, I want the power and resources of government to step in. In this case, the enemy happens to be a virus, and not another nation or some terrorist actors.

For those arguing that they are doing it as an opportunity to strip freedoms for the sake of stripping freedoms and to expand “control,” I say BS. There is no political benefit to making people wear masks or get vaccines, it doesn’t push forward any policy, it has nothing to do with any of the party platforms. It’s just nonsense.

Yup, still waiting.

why, do you think any person entering this country should be vaccinated?

So your good with Americans losing their jobs because they won't get vaccinated, but illegals can come here and move about freely unvaccinated?

Gee, I thought most "illegals" either snuck across our borders, or overstayed their temporary visas. What makes you think those people would voluntarily submit to a mandated vaccine? On the other hand, "legal" immigrants are being required to get Covid vaccines, and other vaccines, before being granted a visa. I think that makes sense, don't you?

Matt

no...ive already said more than once that i am not for a covid19 vaccine mandate, certainly not a federal one. as to the illegals, i don't think they should be allowed in at all, regardless of their vaccination status.

so do you think the illegals should be required to be vaccinated for covid19? if so, why? how about legal travelers from other countries coming into the united states? should they be required to show proof of vaccination or previous infection?

The polio vax was not "required" to go to school, they accepted wavers from parents on religious or other grounds.... a simple waiver from your parents back when parents had a say. There were Seventh Day Adventists at our school who never had a shot, scratch or sugar cube. Those were made freely available as the county nurse or whatever made the rounds from school to school. And the vast majority took advantage of it. But nobody was ejected from school or lost their jobs over it either.

WRT comparing "immunity" there hasn't been a case of polio in the US since 1979. I'd say that was immunity. Wake me when we haven't had a covid case for a couple years, don't have to wait for 42.....

Gotta go now, black SUV in the driveway.... apparently some Karen reported me to a government "therapy" group.....heheheheh.....

so it took 4 decades to eradicate polio and that vaccine was considered a marvel. yet the covid19 vaccine hasn't even been around a year and already its a failure?

Remember, if it’s a wonderful vaccine, you have no worries. Go get your boosters and, SHUT UP about others choices. You have zero to worry about.

so the polio vaccine required 4 doses and took 4 decades in order to completely eradicate the disease yet the covid19 vaccine is a failure because it requires boosters and hasnt eradicated the disease in less than a year...and you tell others to shut up because they are dumb? is that really your argument?

why wont anyone answer the question about whether or not they think every immigrant, legal or illegal, should be required to be vaccinated for covid19 before coming into this country?

Yes it does.

SHUT UP about others choices

No. Especially when they’re rooting those choices in falsehoods and misinformation.

in much the same way you dodged mine?

so do you think the illegals should be required to be vaccinated for covid19? if so, why? how about legal travelers from other countries coming into the united states? should they be required to show proof of vaccination or previous infection?

i would consider that a success. especially in a person with a heart condition requiring surgery.

The link is to a good study done by Penn Medicine that points to a better than reported (in the mainstream media, etc) result of vaccination. Of particular note is the T-cell component as cell-mediated immunity (present in naturally acquired immunity) offers additional protection.

If I'm not mistaken, the same study concluded that individuals who had natural immunity AND received one dose of the vaccine had even greater protection against the delta variant.

Matt

I said give it a few weeks before we rush to judgement on what happens regarding COVID cases following the easing of restrictions.

With that said, Norway looks VERY different than the USA. Beyond the difference in risk factors between the two countries, the extent to which COVID has been impacting the country is night and day.

Norway has had very strict countrywide restrictions in place to limit the spread of COVID - the USA has not. Norway has roughly 70% of their population vaccinated - the USA is standing at closer to 50%. The entire country of Norway has been averaging between zero and one COVID death a day for months thanks to these measures - we are still averaging in the thousands. Norway hospitals are not at capacity and turning away patients to deal with the surge in COVID patients - the USA is in areas.

If the USA looked like Norway and we didn't open back up completely and remove restrictions I would be pissed - unfortunately we don't. If anything, Norway is proof positive that the measures many of us have been advocating for - like increased vaccination - work and can get a country back to a place of normalcy. Again, in terms of seeing regarding Norway's future COVID trajectory is too early to say. Restrictions were lifted two weeks ago, not two months ago.

i don't believe the authorities as much as i believe the data. if what the authorities say matches the data, even better.

i don't agree with mandates either but i don't think thats the case in this situation that knifeman described.

Court cases are just starting. A legal analysis at the link. Viva Frei and Barnes, great legal minds, very informative as to what is going to go on, legal precedence. And the plaintiffs in these cases based on religious freedom (which can be as simple as a statement you don't feel it's right, no need for any "recognized" religious affiliation) pretty much win every time.

These BS mandates are looking and smelling like another President House Plant dumpster fire. Now he can't walk it back and not REALLY look like a fool. Like everything he's done, he looks like the cartoon where Elmer Fudd stands on the limb he's sawing off. Afghanistan, the border, economy..... everything he touches.

Nothing like threatening and attacking a very large segment of the country, honest, hard working folks. Polls are showing 2/3rds to 3/4th of the country do not support vaccine mandates. Crime waves, police and emergency personnel shortages, economy jammed up, worker shortages..... and the grand idea is fire thousands and thousands of skilled people who have done nothing wrong but make their own personal decisions for themselves. Such awesome leadership. Well, if you're working for another country I guess.....

On another note, I think most know what the true answer is. There are many examples throughout history for those not blinded by darkness. Sodom and Gamora is a great example of a nation being destroyed when it ignored God’s laws. The story of King Saul is another.

Part of the greatest story of all. When Jesus calls the Pharisees a brood of vipers. Not unlike our current politicians saying is ok to be a homo and all the other woke bs. Way too many examples that are being ignored. Wake up people. Turn to Jesus for your answer. He is the only way!

Besides, the studies show that kids are not a high risk for extreme Covid