Sitka Gear
CPW is destroying the deer!!!
Mule Deer
Contributors to this thread:
WYOelker 14-Nov-21
[email protected] 14-Nov-21
WYOelker 14-Nov-21
WYOelker 14-Nov-21
Jaquomo 14-Nov-21
Butcherboy 14-Nov-21
cnelk 14-Nov-21
cnelk 14-Nov-21
JL 14-Nov-21
Corax_latrans 14-Nov-21
DanaC 14-Nov-21
Missouribreaks 14-Nov-21
stealthycat 14-Nov-21
Missouribreaks 14-Nov-21
[email protected] 14-Nov-21
LBshooter 14-Nov-21
LBshooter 14-Nov-21
[email protected] 14-Nov-21
WYOelker 15-Nov-21
WYOelker 15-Nov-21
WYOelker 15-Nov-21
Jaquomo 15-Nov-21
DConcrete 15-Nov-21
spike78 15-Nov-21
Jaquomo 15-Nov-21
Grasshopper 15-Nov-21
Shuteye 15-Nov-21
cnelk 15-Nov-21
Shuteye 16-Nov-21
Jims 16-Nov-21
Jims 16-Nov-21
WYOelker 16-Nov-21
Scoot 16-Nov-21
WYOelker 16-Nov-21
WYOelker 16-Nov-21
cnelk 16-Nov-21
[email protected] 16-Nov-21
Scoot 17-Nov-21
Jims 21-Nov-21
Thornton 21-Nov-21
Ucsdryder 22-Nov-21
Bowaddict 22-Nov-21
Jims 23-Nov-21
squirrel 27-Nov-21
Jims 28-Nov-21
Ermine 02-Dec-21
DanaC 02-Dec-21
Treeline 02-Dec-21
Scoot 02-Dec-21
Bowaddict 02-Dec-21
cnelk 02-Dec-21
Sivart 03-Dec-21
KHNC 03-Dec-21
Jims 03-Dec-21
[email protected] 03-Dec-21
trublucolo 05-Dec-21
From: WYOelker
14-Nov-21
Last night we were dropping off our deer at the packers in Meeker. For the first time in years I saw mule deer doe at the packers. A few years back the sportsman round table and many others determined that of a deer herd is below objective doe hunting should be minimal or nonexistent.

So last night when we pulled up to drop off the buck, we saw 16 doe laying out. I couldn’t believe we saw as many, and in the field we saw another 5-6 that had been shot.

So I get home and check the regs.

It was no secret that CPW was wanting to kill mature bucks in NW Colorado to “Fight CWD” that by it self is horrible. But somehow they decided to kill a crap ton of doe as well.

Unit 22 for example has only had around doe tags for 2nd and 3rd season available for several of the past years as the herd is below objective.

This year the 2nd season had 250 doe tags. 3rd season had 250 doe tags.

Units 11, 211, 23. Something jumped to 250/season.

For the meeker area if you add up all the private land only either sex tags, all the regular doe tags there is the potential for over 3000 doe to be killed this year. Granted not all of the PLO tags will be used on doe, even if a 1/3 take a doe we are still talking about over 1000 doe being killed in the meeker area!

Not sure how I did not hear about this? Or how we did not catch it in the spring etc?

Truthfully I think they intentionally snuck it in under the radar allowing everyone else to be pissed on the stated goal of killing mature bucks!

This year

14-Nov-21
Call the local CPW biologist and get an explanation from the "horses' mouth" and then report back what you learned. There might be a very good reason. my best, Paul

From: WYOelker
14-Nov-21
Oh I will be calling. But I can’t imagine a good reason for increasing doe harvest by that much.

From: WYOelker
14-Nov-21
Oh I will be calling. But I can’t imagine a good reason for increasing doe harvest by that much.

From: Jaquomo
14-Nov-21
Last time I talked with a biologist about too many doe tags in a unit, he told me candidly that it was to keep the meat-hunting locals happy. As we know, politics trumps biology on a regular basis.

From: Butcherboy
14-Nov-21
Here’s food for thought. Why do people get upset over harvesting does but have no concern over harvesting cows? The elk in SW Colorado are in bad shape yet cows are still harvested like it’s no big deal. They migrate into northern NM and we harvest the heck out of them with private land tags and reservation tags. The deer herd migrates in as well but the buck to doe ratio is terrible. When you see 150 does and maybe only one to two 3 point bucks and a small amount of fork horn’s that’s bad. Does need to be harvested to maintain a healthy herd. That’s just my observation about NM and don’t know all the ins and outs of the area in CO. I do know that just a few years I drove up up through Craig and up to WY and the amount of winter roadkill from deer and elk was incredible!

From: cnelk
14-Nov-21
That’s what happens when you move to Wyoming

From: cnelk
14-Nov-21
Those tag quotas are old news. There was lots of discussion about it awhile ago

From: JL
14-Nov-21
I know from watching the Michigan and thousands of doe tags being sold in some DMU's under the guise of CWD mitigation, it makes you wonder what is going on. I spoke to the local bio in the area I hunt a couple of years ago about why are 9000 doe tags being sold in this particular county? He said it was to reduce the total herd numbers as part of CWD mitigation. Thump enough of the does and the herd totals will eventually drop. I can confirm this year the total number of does I've gotten on trail cams is way down in this area. It's mostly private land with a lot of ag. Not more than one hour ago I was just talking to the property owner where I'm hunting about giving the does a break this year. The small bucks are out numbering the does quite a bit. Most of the bucks on cam are 1.5's. IMO....the stupid MAPR rule and excessive doe harvest we have is throwing things out of whack. Hunters that are lucky and do find success are shooting mostly 2.5's and a lessor amount of 3.5's as the majority of the harvest classes and a lot of does. Older bucks are getting harder to find in any numbers because hunters are filling tags on the 2.5's and a smathering of 3pt+ 1.5's. Many bucks don't make it to the 3.5 range much less the 4.5+ range. The age make up of the total buck harvest numbers should bear that out. Another IMO....unlimited OTC deer tags like we have in Michigan is a curse. But I digress.......

14-Nov-21
“ Many bucks don't make it to the 3.5 range much less the 4.5+ range. The age make up of the total buck harvest numbers should bear that out. “

Dude…

In a lot of places, on public land… North of 85% don’t make it past 1 1/2. Maybe you would feel better if you were to take a minute to count your blessings??

From: DanaC
14-Nov-21
The sad truth is that in many (most???) states the biologists do not have the last word in herd management.

I've talked to more than a few and to a tee they all want healthy animals with populations in balance with the habitat. It's the whiners and the politicians who listen to their squeaky-wheel arses that gum up management plans.

Biologists : "We need to issue 800 antlerless permits in Zone 7"

Politician : "Make it 1200, keep my constituents happy."

Deer : "Sh*!"

Hunters (Two years later) : "Sh*!"

14-Nov-21
I agree with DanaC.

From: stealthycat
14-Nov-21
to be fair, sportsman don't HAVE to kill does

partial blame is on the people using the doe tags too

14-Nov-21
No they do not, but that is how some states then got "earn a buck", so how did sportsman gain?

14-Nov-21
THe CPW management deer plan for D-7, can be found on their website. The following is part of that plan. To understand the history of deer management in D-7, read the plan in total.

Preferred Alternative 2 – would allow for a 30% reduction in herd numbers from current population estimates. A population objective range of 25,000–35,000 would allow for increased flexibility in management options if desired CWD prevalence rate reductions were not being achieved. In addition, it would allow further population reductions to address density-dependence mortality factors if survival-monitoring data indicated malnutrition rates continued to be a significant factor. Management actions recommended to achieve the population objective and reduce CWD prevalence rates include: increased female and/or either sex hunting licenses, increased harvest in later season or in high CWD prevalence areas, increase private land only license availability, and increase harvest within targeted high-density mule deer winter ranges. The specific areas in which increased harvest on high-density mule deer winter ranges would be determined based on data from D-7 mule deer survival monitoring results. Moderate incremental increases in license recommendations would be utilized to achieve desired objectives.

From: LBshooter
14-Nov-21
Well the public land I hunt in Illinois has been destroyed by the culling dnr assholes. They claim CWD , however, not one case has been reported or found. The DNR test for,free so guys drop off heads and they have yet to find CWD. The real reason so I've been told is the insurance industry is paying like 200 a deer so they will pay less claims out. The real sad news is that the dnr either bury or burn the culled deer, terrible.

From: LBshooter
14-Nov-21
Well the public land I hunt in Illinois has been destroyed by the culling dnr assholes. They claim CWD , however, not one case has been reported or found. The DNR test for,free so guys drop off heads and they have yet to find CWD. The real reason so I've been told is the insurance industry is paying like 200 a deer so they will pay less claims out. The real sad news is that the dnr either bury or burn the culled deer, terrible.

14-Nov-21
LB read the following pertaining to Illinois' deer

For many years CWD was known to occur only in a small area of northern Colorado and southern Wyoming. However, the distribution of the disease has expanded into a number of other states and Canadian provinces. In February 2002, CWD was discovered in wild deer in southern Wisconsin. In November 2002, Illinois confirmed that a CWD-infected deer had been found near Roscoe in Boone County, near the Wisconsin border. To date, CWD has been confirmed in 17 Illinois counties: Winnebago, Boone, McHenry, DeKalb, Ogle, LaSalle, Stephenson, Jo Daviess, Kane, Grundy, Kendall, Du Page, Lake, Will, Livingston, Kankakee and Carroll. In Illinois, the disease is most common in eastern Winnebago, northwest DeKalb, west and central McHenry, most of Boone County, northeast Kane, central LaSalle, west and central Kendall and Grundy, and in the southeast and southwest corners of Jo Daviess and Stephenson counties, respectively. If left unmanaged, CWD prevalence will likely increase and the disease will spread throughout the state. There is currently no treatment or vaccination for the disease. 4. What do we know about CWD as it relates to the Illinois deer herd?

Since the first case of CWD was discovered in Illinois, the Department of Natural Resources started a "targeted surveillance program" for CWD in wild deer which was first proposed by the Southeastern Cooperative Wildlife Disease Study, a diagnostic and research service which investigates wildlife diseases. In this program, deer that exhibit symptoms that could be caused by CWD are submitted for testing by an approved laboratory. In addition, during the fall firearm deer seasons, Illinois officials systematically sampled hunter-harvested deer from around the state for CWD testing. The Department of Natural Resources also initiated a focused winter sharpshooting program for CWD management. Results of these practices have determined the geographic distribution of CWD currently encompasses 17 Illinois counties, with the core areas being along the county line separating Winnebago and Boone counties, northwest DeKalb County, and in the southeast and southwest corners of Jo Daviess and Stephenson counties, respectively. Other “spark” areas of the disease have radiated from the core areas of the disease.

From: WYOelker
15-Nov-21
Here is what I know. I looked dither. Unit 4 over 600 doe tags. Unit 4, over 609 doe tags.

I knew there was talk about increasing mature bucks harvest as the CWD group came to Conclude that mature bucks were the source of CWD infection.

It is crap however that we are looking at killing over 4000 doe in the NW. unit 22 for example has been the most studied unit in NW Colorado for many things including CWD.

CWD according to Chick Anderson who has been in 22 for 20 years has never exceeded 3% in faction rate. This was on hundreds of live test. Unlike other units where the data is on dead deer.

Sickening that anyone in these areas would allow this to continue.

Colorados deer herd in NW Colorado is going to be done for 29 some years. They did this same BS in Ft Collins 7, 8, 9. It took those units 20 years to have decent deer numbers again.

From: WYOelker
15-Nov-21
I also call BS on the malnutrition claims. Again unit 22 data clearly shows that the only times nutrition is a concern is in the extreme winter. Not because there is a lack of nutrition but because the nutrition is buried under the snow.

Having worked on the deer studies for over 10 years in 22. The doe were fatter, had more twins and higher body scores for the last 20 years then were ever see in the 70s and 80s.

The CPWs conclusions from the study Anderson did was that Nutrition was not an issue for the deer in the basin.

So again this seems wrong to offer so Many doe tags in units where their own research shows that nutrition was not the issue…

As mentioned before the exact same unit has been showing less than 3% CWD infection rate.

From: WYOelker
15-Nov-21
I also call BS on the malnutrition claims. Again unit 22 data clearly shows that the only times nutrition is a concern is in the extreme winter. Not because there is a lack of nutrition but because the nutrition is buried under the snow.

Having worked on the deer studies for over 10 years in 22. The doe were fatter, had more twins and higher body scores for the last 20 years then were ever see in the 70s and 80s.

The CPWs conclusions from the study Anderson did was that Nutrition was not an issue for the deer in the basin.

So again this seems wrong to offer so Many doe tags in units where their own research shows that nutrition was not the issue…

As mentioned before the exact same unit has been showing less than 3% CWD infection rate.

From: Jaquomo
15-Nov-21
7,8,9 still haven't recovered to anywhere near the pre-slaughter numbers except in a couple large developments that didn't allow DOW on to do their night shooting. I first started bowhunting deer there in 1971, and the difference before and after the slaughter is unbelievable. CWD killed a hell of a lot of deer - with lead poisoning.

From: DConcrete
15-Nov-21
They treat cwd the same way they treat covid.

From: spike78
15-Nov-21
Anybody notice this is mainly liberal states? Must be some agenda.

From: Jaquomo
15-Nov-21
CO wasn't blue back when they did the first CWD slaughter. It was a knee-jerk panic reaction. Now that they know it is largely spread through saliva by mature bucks travelling from doe group to doe group, they could simply institute a mask mandate for all deer and most of the problem would be solved.

From: Grasshopper
15-Nov-21
Next up we will kill them to control covid, they are a "reservoir" species.

From: Shuteye
15-Nov-21
Here where I live you can kill as many does as you want but there is a strict limit on bucks. You can only kill two. Has been that way for years and it certainly hasn't hurt the deer population a bit.

From: cnelk
15-Nov-21
Big difference between WT and MD reproduction rates.

From: Shuteye
16-Nov-21
cnelk , there must be. Delaware is also overrun with deer. I live about two miles from Delaware. Quite often the old does have three fawns. The only predators are man and vehicles. Everyone around here drives slower during the rut, day and night.

From: Jims
16-Nov-21
It’s a known fact that cwd only infects a small fraction of the muley population and from that small rate only a small fraction are weak and die. Similar to covid in humans. Predators kill the few truly sick ones that exist.

It’s a sad ploy by the cpw to sell more tags! Its a disgrace what is happening in Colorado! Going from the top B&C state in the country to the pits in only a few years time!

From: Jims
16-Nov-21
It’s a known fact that cwd only infects a small fraction of the muley population and from that small rate only a small fraction are weak and die. Similar to covid in humans. Predators kill the few truly sick ones that exist.

It’s a sad ploy by the cpw to sell more tags! Its a disgrace what is happening in Colorado! Going from the top B&C state in the country to the pits in only a few years time!

From: WYOelker
16-Nov-21
Just FYI. I ran the CPW numbers…

In NW Colorado there were 7,700 either sex or doe only deer tags.

That is insane and will absolutely destroy the herd.

I am waiting for a response from the researcher I know in 22. He has been booted from The area and when I last asked him about the approach all he did was roll his eyes and say he couldn’t comment.

I have emailed and asked for some data from his study, I will let everyone know what I can find from him.

From: Scoot
16-Nov-21
Sure am glad I've been building up my muley points in hopes of hunting CO in the next couple years... I will finally will have enough points to draw where I'd like to go in a year or two, but really see little reason to bother now. I hate to eat all of the points that I've purchased over the last decade, but I'm not sure it's worth throwing good money after bad either. Frustrating...

From: WYOelker
16-Nov-21
Just FYI. I ran the CPW numbers…

In NW Colorado there were 7,700 either sex or doe only deer tags.

That is insane and will absolutely destroy the herd.

I am waiting for a response from the researcher I know in 22. He has been booted from The area and when I last asked him about the approach all he did was roll his eyes and say he couldn’t comment.

I have emailed and asked for some data from his study, I will let everyone know what I can find from him.

From: WYOelker
16-Nov-21
Just FYI. I ran the CPW numbers…

In NW Colorado there were 7,700 either sex or doe only deer tags.

That is insane and will absolutely destroy the herd.

I am waiting for a response from the researcher I know in 22. He has been booted from The area and when I last asked him about the approach all he did was roll his eyes and say he couldn’t comment.

I have emailed and asked for some data from his study, I will let everyone know what I can find from him.

From: cnelk
16-Nov-21
On a positive note, rarely, if ever, there is 100% harvest to the tag allotment.

16-Nov-21
Food for thought: In 1963 the deer harvest was 147,000 and the herd was healthy for years after.

In 2020 there were 87,000 hunters and harvest was 39,000.

I caught the tale end of the good old days as a kid and took it for granted. I know we have lost plenty of wintering ground in parts of the State but we are far, far below carrying capacity in others.

Years ago I assumed habitat carrying capacity would be what determined population objectives. Who wouldn't want as many deer as we could sustainably have? That's not how those numbers are set.

From: Scoot
17-Nov-21
"Who wouldn't want as many deer as we could sustainably have?"

The two easiest answers I can come up with are insurance companies and anti-hunting groups.

From: Jims
21-Nov-21
Times definitely change! I wonder how many elk there were in 1963 vs 2021? I spent time in the NW corner of Colo this fall and was overwhelmed with the number of elk. There is a long list of factors that could potentially change....habitat, disease, competition with elk, predators, tag allocations, winter and summer range conditions, invasive weeds, roads and access, ATV's, long range rifles and scopes.....the list goes on. These factors can change in a positive or negative direction. Usually a combination of factors can dictate which direction these changes go.

From: Thornton
21-Nov-21
Just got done hunting north of there and saw well over a hundred does and quite a few small bucks. Saw dozens of hunters all ignoring the does but they were shooting elk and dink bucks. Saw zero mature bucks in 5 days, hundreds of miles of driving, and 20 plus miles of hiking.

From: Ucsdryder
22-Nov-21
Everyone I know killed bucks this year. One group went 5 for 5 in 3rd season. All dinks. It’s going to be slim pickings in a couple years!!!

From: Bowaddict
22-Nov-21
I’m in cwd hot zone like jaq, in fact border a ranch that let dow cull in early 2000’s to try and slow spread. Our rate is about the same as it was then, and deer still haven’t recovered! I’m in the camp that thinks this has been here a long time, they just discovered it when they did because of advances in tech. Unless the dow was really doing some China type crap they want to let us know about!? Otherwise observe/study and stop the destruction of the heards!

From: Jims
23-Nov-21
One simple solution....let the predators kill the few truly sick ones that exist! What the CPW is doing is totally nuts and a disgrace!

From: squirrel
27-Nov-21
The deer migrated... eastward by pickups on I-70. Took four years 2013-2017 to go from 200" to 2x2. You boys are late to the epiphany

From: Jims
28-Nov-21
I'm aware that the CPW has a 5 year season structure. Unfortunately this is only year 1 of the 5 year plan. I was wondering if there is any way of changing the late rifle season dates or are they set in stone for 5 years? I can't imagine what Colo mule deer is going to look like 4 years from now! Older age class bucks are going to take a pounding! The CPW already is aware that hammering CWD hotspots does virtually nothing to CWD and the spread of CWD. What they are doing makes absolutely no sense if it's not going to change CWD.

I guess I'll ask the same question I've asked on another website......"How many CWD sick deer have you seen while recently scouting and hunting in Colo?" I spend just about every day watching deer in a supposed CWD "hotspot". The last time I saw a CWD sick deer was around 10 years ago! CWD may be present in a low % of the total deer population in these hotspot areas but the few truly sick deer that exist get killed quickly by predators!

Colo has been known as the mule deer mecca of the Western US and sadly this could change dramatically for the worse if the 5 year season structure with increase in tags continues!

From: Ermine
02-Dec-21
I don’t know if they can change it. But I wish they would. They need to get rid of that 4th season. The bigger bucks are getting hammered. Poor guys don’t stand a chance

From: DanaC
02-Dec-21
re Scoot

" "Who wouldn't want as many deer as we could sustainably have?" The two easiest answers I can come up with are insurance companies and anti-hunting groups. "

Just insurance companies (ok some farmers too.) Anti-hunters generally have no clue about population dynamics, carrying capacities etc. nor do they care. They live in a fantasy land where if deer are not hunted they live almost forever, with no disease or hunger, and no other predation, and then die in their sleep. Science? Biology? Oppression!

The insurance companies, on the other hand, know to the penny how much deer 'cost', in claims paid out.

From: Treeline
02-Dec-21
Colorado is maintaining a huge number of elk. Have hit two in the last several years on the highway. Rarely see much for deer lately. It is not the insurance companies that are pushing for fewer deer here.

Colorado’s mismanagement of mule deer is one of the saddest stories and greatest failures in modern wildlife management.

It was not that long ago that mule deer were the cash register for Colorado’s Division of Wildlife (previous agency) and the envy of every western state. Hard to believe the decisions made over the last decade or two that seem to be focused on destroying that resource.

From: Scoot
02-Dec-21
"Colorado’s mismanagement of mule deer is one of the saddest stories and greatest failures in modern wildlife management."

Bingo. Such a sad and pathetic deal...

From: Bowaddict
02-Dec-21
I wouldn’t give them too much credit for elk either! The numbers of elk that habitually stay on private land are doing great, the ones that migrate to and from national forests and otc are getting hammered for most part. Wasn’t long ago they were wiping out the whitetail out east to help the mule deer, now it’s all out on everything, sad!

From: cnelk
02-Dec-21
But… but…. Deer is entirely draw! It has to be good! Lol

From: Sivart
03-Dec-21
Management won't matter much once the wolves take over.

From: KHNC
03-Dec-21
What is actually "crap" , is referring to multiple female deer as "doe".

The Correct word is "DOES!!"

The cpw is currently allowing for 3000 DOES to be harvested. Not DOE. :)

From: Jims
03-Dec-21
Back when Colo deer was OTC there weren't tags available in Western Colo during 3 rifle seasons in the middle of the rut!

03-Dec-21
My buddies in PA drop the "s".

"I seen three doe and two buck last night"

From: trublucolo
05-Dec-21
I took a nice 26”, heavy horned, old 5x4 down by Piedra during 3rd rifle, bucks weren’t chasing does heavy yet. Would post a pic except this is the Bowsite ;-), that and l don’t know how lol. Ran into a hunter from Wisconsin who told me he bagged a “ barely legal buck” opening morning, wanted to get his buck out of the way so he could focus on getting his bull”. A lot of guys seem content to take anything with a horn to avoid going home unsuccessful. I passed on a smallish 3x3 and a bunch of small forked horns earlier in my hunt on opening day this year and when I told my wife later that night, I got reminded (scolded) about tag soup from last year. I passed on a really nice 3x3 down there in the same unit last year, opting to eat my tag on the chance I might get to see him again in a couple of years. Still haven’t heard the end of that.

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