45-70govt or 450 bushmaster
Equipment
Sorry not archery related but I am thinking of getting a camp gun for protection as our new moose area has brown and white bears, I don't know too much about guns but the 45-70govt seems pretty crazy, The 450 bushmaster seems good too. I am not hunting with it unless I have a bow malfunction. What caliber would you choose
45-70 all day over the .450
Maybe Kevin Dill will jump in and let us drool over his custom take down Marlin 45-70
45-70 lever action for a camp gun. Better choices in bullets and more power.
45-70 lever gun.
It’s a thumper. As Greg said, better bullet selection and more power.
thanks guys, would marlin be the brand to buy? I like the looks of them
Marlin is a good choice;I would get a 450 Marlin(magnum 45/70) newer,stronger case.45/70 are loaded down for the "old" guns. I would go for an original Marlin or he ones built now by Ruger(not by Remington).
If you don't reload or buy custom heavy loads the 45-70 is milder.
I like my Henry in 45-70 but the Marlins are good reliable guns too.
PS the newer Henry's have side loading gate.
45-70, all day, every day!
It can be loaded from "mouse fart" to moose stampede.
Testing images.....
I went with .45/70 for many reasons. The bottom line was ammo selections, performance and availability. Weapon choices are many and most all perform very well with the loads available. The round is a well-accepted dangerous game stopper, but also suitable for short and medium-short range hunting with open sights.
My first one was a straight-stocked Marlin 1895 Guide Gun customized by Wild West Guns in Anchorage. It shot like a dream and even my wife loved to shoot it with normal loads. With ghost ring peep it was an intuitive defensive weapon. Parkerized finish and lots of options. I sold it because I craved a full takedown 1895.
Cool, I see cabelas canada has a couple Chiappa models available, is chiappa a good make?
If you have time, Try to find a Marlin guide gun
A couple years ago I located an original JM (John Marlin) series 1895 which appeared to be unfired. I bought it and took it to Jerry Dove in Princeton, WV for custom smithing. Here's the list of things I asked him to do:
Convert to takedown. Shorten barrel to 16.5". Polish and smooth action and trigger. Delete safety. Shorten stock 1.5". Pachmayer Decelerator Pad. Big Loop Lever. Skinner Sights front and rear. Re-crown barrel. 2-color Cerakote all metal.
Judge for yourself but this is about the ultimate traveling defensive rifle suitable for anything that walks North America. The gun is a real hoot to handle and shoot. It's short and FAST in the hands. I am extremely impressed with it. The fact that is packs into a 20" case is really helpful.
In use....
That’s the beauty I was hoping you would show.
I’ve got a JM Marlin guide gun in 45-70. But it’s bone stock.
I bought a 45-70 this year and put a trijicon red dot on it. I really like it. Mine is the Marlin
My thoughts about Kevin Dill's beautiful takedown:
I am always amazed at the level of expertise that Bowsiters have in so many areas. Cool threads and awesome rifle KD!
If just for hunting I believe the 444 has better ballistics, slightly. For all around and bear defense 45-70 hands down. Load selection is way better.
+1 for the .45/70
I went for an 1895SS because there’s not an herbivore on this continent that I couldn’t kill cleanly enough with watered-down Cowboy Action loads if it came to that, or I can buy penetrator loads so hot that I would probably never touch one off unless my life depended on it. Kinda checks off a lotta boxes.
If I were flying into remote areas, I’d want one like Kevin’s.
Is there anyone on here that is knowledgeable about the Pre-‘64 Winchester 1894 30-30 in outstanding condition? I made a deal on a group of guns many years ago and it went in my gun cabinet and there it remains. Keep or sell and get something else?
SteveB, might want to check out the Leroy Merz Antique gun website. They will have good comparisons for value. As far as a useful gun, IMO the 30-30 is still a great caliber under the proper circumstances.
I think you found your camp gun Carcus!
“ As far as a useful gun, IMO the 30-30 is still a great caliber under the proper circumstances.” Amen to that one!
The worst thing about the .30-30 (IMO) is that you basically can’t get it in anything but a lever-gun. A bolt-action with a 20” barrel and a low-powered scope (or in a Scout Rifle configuration) would be about as sexy as Grandma’s orthopedic shoes and probably twice as practical.
You can do a lot of nice things to customize a Marlin 1895. It was and still is a popular gun with many accessories available. One thing I strongly recommend is to consider upgrading to a big loop lever. It's much easier to get a gloved hand in there quickly, plus you'll experience less finger bruising from recoil. For defensive work a ghost ring (large aperture, receiver mounted peep) sight is superb. I had a Skinner Alaskan rear sight installed on the receiver. Much better than the flip-down barrel-mounted rear sight Marlin used.
Kevin, that's sweet; for bear I'd unscrew the peep aperture and go with a ghost ring/fiber optic front sight combo. Currently running a cheap red/green dot optic but going to switch to a Skinner peep and upgrade the front post. (Old eyes don't see that brass bead worth a damn...)
The Skinner Alaskan is like fine jewelry for your gun.
45-70 it is, now make and model, cabelas Canada has Chiappa levers in stock, are they worth looking at?
I'm not a gun guy but these are the guns I will hunt with when I can't use a bow!
45-70 Marlin Guide gun - also had mine customized by Brockmans Rifles in Idaho.
Looks like they have done a good job of knocking off Marlin’s entire lineup and then some.
I don’t know if their rifles are on par with the Marlins, but I sure wish I had the funds available to conduct a thorough investigation ;)
And I’m not even a Gun Guy anymore!!
Little late to the conversation, but went on brown bear photo expedition and all the guides had 45-70's.
Terry
I’ve been fortunate to spend a fair amount of time in and around bears of all sizes, .45/70 is what I carry.
45 70. Especially if you reload. Your choices become almost endless. One of my favorite lever actions to shoot. Who am I kidding. All lever actions rock.
Nick you don't look old enough to carry one of those!
Man, you guys are making me jealous with those 45/70 lever actions... I only have a single shot H&R/NEF 45/70 Handi Rifle...
45/70 with Garrett cartridges and you'll stop whatever you want. The customs are nice but they cost a lot of money, I checked Walmart and picked up a Henry side loading gate for $162 on clearance, beautiful rifle. Rounds are expensive with the shortage, however if you check your local Walmart they sell a box of 20, 300 grain for 32 dollars.
Just make sure that Henry is rated for the hot rounds!
(At $162, I can’t imagine that it could be)
Personally, I don’t really understand why they sell .45 caliber bullets in the flying ashtray configuration. A .458 slug needs expansion like Jeff Bezos needs food stamps. I center-punched the heart on a Whitetail from 80 yards with a 300 HP and she still ran 40; can’t imagine she’d have gone any farther with a 405….
But at $32/box, I guess I know I won’t be trading off my spent brass anytime soon ;)
Pretty sure the Henry will hold up to any round suited for the Marlins.
Contacted Henry, they will not *commit* to that. I'd bet Marlin won't either. But custom loaders like Garrett have tested their stuff extensively.
PS Corax, I *like* those ashtray bullets. Fun handing someone a load with a Barnes X up front, just to see the look on their face ;-)
https://www.garrettcartridges.com/terms.html
I've been very happy with my .45/70
Good luck, Robb
I don't think anyone needs a custom piece for utility work around camp or out in the field. Your everyday .45/70 lever will do just fine. I went custom because I like fine weapons and because I really wanted a TD lever for bush travel in planes. I also wanted a purpose-built gun made for fast handling, compact carry, mostly defensive work, and corrosion resistance. It's also my backup hunting weapon if my bow ever bites the dust.
As far as power goes, there's way more than enough kinetic energy to push a heavy projectile deep into or through a big bear or moose. I'm talking skull-busting, skeletal-destroying power. An average 'cowboy' load with soft lead bullets will surprise you. Heavier jacketed bullets are real bunker busters.
Nice guns, now I just gotta find one!
Whatever you do, go stainless. You don’t want to be babying and oiling a camp gun. Once you get home after a trip after it’s been tossed around, rained on, in and out of the tent, you can clean it once and put it away.
I’m a little against the grain here, as I’m a believer that with guns, speed (shock) kills by matter of “bang flop” more often than a big hole. With a bear that is eating me I want dead right now. No doubt about it, with a 45-70 getting a big bullet into the central nervous system anywhere is going to be lights out, but a double long or something could leave enough time for some uncomfortable times. I’ve shot a few things with a 45-70, and NOT in the head or spine, and the deaths have been surprisingly slow. A guide I talked to in the Yukon who did tons of brown bears said, I always tell my clients to leave their 45-70s at home and bring their bolt gun that they shoot the best. Even for a charging situation. I’d probably choose a kimber Montana or something similar (extremely light and easy to carry) in 338win with good bullets, or honestly any of my go to bolt guns that I shoot well, even in 7mm Rem Mag. I want light so I actually carry it, something I shoot well, and that will do well both with frontal and broadside shots if one or the other is needed.
Having said all that, a lot of guys carry a 45-70 and are happy with that so I’m sure you could be too
You can also get a 450BM in an AR15 platform as well. I have a Ruger American in 450BM and dropped a black bear in its tracks it’s no slouch.
A friend of mine has 2 of them. 1 for him and 1 for his son. Both are ported. A friend of his has 1, not ported. The not ported gun really hurts to shoot. The other 2 shoots like a 3030. I have shot all 3 and like the ported barrels much better.
The Henry will handle anything a Marlin will eat, and that's what friends are for, I always let them shoot first ;) The $162 price was simply the way Walmart gets rid of stock they will no longer carry, did I mention the golden boy 44 was also $162 ? . A Remington 308 for 69.95 ain't bad either. As far as weight, it's hard to beat a lever gun for quick handling and second follow up shots, of course just like anything practice is recommended.
45/70 with Garrett cartridges and you'll stop whatever you want. The customs are nice but they cost a lot of money, I checked Walmart and picked up a Henry side loading gate for $162 on clearance, beautiful rifle. Rounds are expensive with the shortage, however if you check your local Walmart they sell a box of 20, 300 grain for 32 dollars.
Boris mine is ported and probably kicks like a stout 20 gauge slug.
Just finished looking at the ruger guide gun, It's definitely a option
CRIMINY, Robb - that scope has got to weigh more than the rifle!!!!
@KD - I truly admire the fact that yours is NOT ported.
Bought a Marlin guide gun after a hunt where ironically “Guides Gun was a Marlin 1895G Guide Gun” he put down a wounded bear. Years later I was asked to help track a wounded bear and did the same when bear reared up and lunged at me about 15 feet away one straight though chest literally rolled him arse over end. I have scout front mount with a red dot up front. I literally shoulder the gun and that red dot is on target.
So I'm just curious but why isn't a 12 Guage with slugs a consideration.
So out of know where here comes a pissed off brown or polar or grizz & you've got to fool with turning that red dot on. NO THANKS
Trijicon red dot turns on automatically when the gun is moved. Handy as can be!
"So I'm just curious but why isn't a 12 Guage with slugs a consideration."
The gun will be used to hunt with if we have a bow malfunction
Iv used red dots & their great in controlled situations. A bear attack is not a controlled situation. Had one on a bow & hated it. To bright in low light & all ya saw was red. To low in bright light & ya could barely see it if at all Had to constantly adjust with changing light conditions. In an unexpected oh shit situation ?????
“ why isn't a 12 Guage with slugs a consideration.”
First 3 reasons that come to mind: Sectional Density Jacketed Bullets .458 Win Mag equivalent loads
A 350 grain 45-70 at 1900 & the same bullet out of a 458 at 2500 is not comparable whatsoever
I fact the 458 will push a 500 grain bullet 250 fps faster than the 45-70 will a 350 at 1900. Again not comparable at all.
Not taking anything away from the 45-70 it's a great round.
I fact the 458 will push a 500 grain bullet 250 fps faster than the 45-70 will a 350 at 1900. Again not comparable at all.
Not taking anything away from the 45-70 it's a great round.
A 350 grain 45-70 at 1900 & the same bullet out of a 458 at 2500 is not comparable whatsoever
My first trip to Kodiak I took an 870 with a 21" slug barrel and rifle sights. Weather kept us from getting out to our deer spot so we duck hunted spots we could get to on the road system. That barrel worked amazingly well and we killed a bunch.
45-70 is a great choice. I've hunted with one several times and it is an obvious choice for a dual purpose defense/hunting rifle.
"So I'm just curious but why isn't a 12 Guage with slugs a consideration. "
Good question. Depends on what you "like" to an extent.
I load 300 grain 45 jacketed bullets in my 45-70, the load is warm and probably gets close to 1900 fps. My 12 gauge deer load is the Hornady SST, which is a 300 grain 45 bullet at around 2000 fps. (And my muzzle-loader round is a 300 grain saboted 45 caliber 300 grainer in that ballpark.)
The 45-70 is a bit trimmer than the other two guns, and heck, I just wanted one. And the shotgun is only legal for the third bear season here, while the 45-70 is legal for the first two, longer, seasons. (Yeah, screwy laws, they just recently opened bear to shotgun deer season, which is the only time you can carry slugs in the woods.)
Would I use the SST's on a bear? Absolutely. But the Henry is my 'bear gun' because that's how I justified it when I spent the money ;-)
Yup for bear protection toss that damn red dot scope and use open sights. The red dot is sure nice on white paper targets but not on a charging animal. I shot a black bear a couple years ago with my scoped Marlin lever gun in .35 Remington and dropped it on the ground. It quickly got up and ran about 15 feet past me I was on the ground. I took two running shots and missed both because it had a scope on it.
Personally, no scope for me on a primary defensive bear gun. I think it’s impossible to do better than a rear receiver ghost ring combined with a sturdy blade up front. Extremely fast and natural target acquisition. Low profile for carry. Sturdy and weather-proof. You can carry a smaller aperture and screw it in for enhanced accuracy at longer ranges.
To me, scoping a defensive rifle (which is intended for up-close work) is like scoping a 4” Casull. You can do it of course, but you could be compromising some things on a fast moving target at 10 yards.
Spike, you don't mention what power scope you were using. A good low-power scope or a red dot can be as fast as open sights if the shooter is familiar with it.
(I get a hoot out of guys with a 16x scope on a 30-30 tho' - used to see some funny chit in Vermont ;-) )
Ruger 44 mag carbine with fixed 2.5 × iv had this gun for over 40 years shoot it with both eyes open & couldn't even guess how much venison it's put in the freezer
I don't have time to dig it up, but I'm almost positive that one of the shooting schools that "train" people for dangerous game hunting (like charges), did a "study" about quickness of open sights versus even a 1-4x scope, and the scope was quicker by a wide wide margin than people using open sights.
The big problem is that most people don't have the time nor funds to practice consistently with a weapon like a 45-70. I know I can't afford to put $50 worth of ammo through it every day
I like my red dot on mine. It is super quick and fast. Much faster for me than open sights. I can't find a pic of mine.
I would love that safety delete. . .
Found it. Wish I could find a shorter weaver base. It’s about 2/8ths too tall
I put a Trijicon 3.5 MOA red dot on my daughters 410 turkey gun. I’m not a good shot but I can consistently bust flying clays with it. It’s quicker than you would think
I'll try to post a picture of my wife with our 45/70 and an aggressive black bear that we had to kill a while back.
Suit yourself, Timex. Couple hundred fps may matter on the African plains, but at 20 yards and in, I’d expect it’s more a matter of whatever you can cycle faster.
A hot-loaded .45/70 may not be “everything” that the .458 Win CAN be, but the question I was responding to was “why the .45/70 and not a 12-ga.?”
And if you limit your options to factory loads, the .45/70+P is a helluvalot closer to a .458 WM than it is to any 12 ga slug that I’m aware of. And whrn it comes to familiarity, a .45/70 is also a lot more useful for actually hunting animals like deer & Elk than a .458….
Just sayin’.
If I could afford to have a rifle that I would only use to stop charging animals bent on my destruction, I could probably afford to have someone like Bud Searcy build it for me… and at that rate, I wouldn’t even consider a.458Win.
Dana, I believe it is a 2-8 power but I will have to check. It may have been on 3x when I shot the bear because that spot was around an 80 yard shot total but I shot the bear at 30 yards. The power didn’t really matter anyway because I did not have time to actually look through it only point and shoot.
Yeah, I don't shoot enough moving targets to feel confident. Should probably branch out and do a bit of skeet.
Corax I'd suggest you read that top paragraph closely before ya go putting hotrod loads in a lever gun ........
Your the one who compared the 45-70 to the 458 & i simply intended to educate you to the fact that thats not true. Especially wit loads suitable for lever guns. Never did I say the 458 was better. In fact I had a 458 & loaded 300 grain round nose bullets to 2800 fps & it was an incredibly powerful gun but was punishing to shoot 10-15 rounds on the bags testing loads & ya had a headache for the rest of the day.
Not sure what bullets are suitable for the 450 Bush but the 45-70 has loads from 250 grain jacketed to hard cast weighing more than double that. Hornady sells lighter bullets with flexible plastic tips that improve ballistics.
You don't need to beat your brains out for thin-skinned game but you can pack some heavy whup-ass if you need it. Frankly those Garret heavies scare me! I've loaded 'stout' 350 grain rounds and that was about all the fun I could ask for ;-)
“ The power didn’t really matter anyway because I did not have time to actually look through it only point and shoot.”
That’s the beauty of familiarity
“ an incredibly powerful gun but was punishing to shoot 10-15 rounds on the bags testing loads & ya had a headache for the rest of the day.”
I used to get that from a 7 Mag! LOL
Though there are days when I seem to be a little muddle-headed and I start scaring myself over how many concussions I’ve accumulated and how much that damn 7Mag contributed on every shot…..
Not sure if my 1895 is rated for ALL of the available +P options, so I’d take the ammo manufacturers’ guidance on that, but I was under the impression that the whole point of the Garrett, Buffalo Bore, Cor-Bon, et al was specifically to take advantage of modern rifles and propellants.
I do feel pretty certain that if I were to buy a box of the hot ones, the extent of my “testing” would be one “instinctively” aimed shot off-hand at an 8” bull from 20 yards.
Unless I was a foot high, I’d probably call it good and save the other 19 for bears or rotten tricks to pull on the unsuspecting….. :p
Corax - Dude your funny.... Go back & look at your post of the bullets & take note of the bright red writing that says (see more info & recommended firearms) I honestly don't think a extremely hot load would bust a modern lever gun. But the extreme pressure could most definitely cause a stuck case the same as hard bolt lift with hot loads in a bolt gun. in this case the lever gun doesn't have the torque required to remove the stuck case. This would not be a good thing especially in a gun intended as a defense weapon
“ an incredibly powerful gun but was punishing to shoot 10-15 rounds on the bags testing loads & ya had a headache for the rest of the day.”
I used to get that from a 7 Mag! LOL
Though there are days when I seem to be a little muddle-headed and I start scaring myself over how many concussions I’ve accumulated and how much that damn 7Mag contributed on every shot…..
Not sure if my 1895 is rated for ALL of the available +P options, so I’d take the ammo manufacturers’ guidance on that, but I was under the impression that the whole point of the Garrett, Buffalo Bore, Cor-Bon, et al was specifically to take advantage of modern rifles and propellants.
I do feel pretty certain that if I were to buy a box of the hot ones, the extent of my “testing” would be one “instinctively” aimed shot off-hand at an 8” bull from 20 yards.
Unless I was a foot high, I’d probably call it good and save the other 19 for bears or rotten tricks to pull on the unsuspecting….. :p
Dana the 450 shoots pistol bullets so yes the 45/70 is definitely more versatile but the 450 is definitely enough for most game anyway.
Silly me. I was looking at this….
Corax I'll talk guns with ya all day long. This is my latest build it'll put bullets in the ass of a soda can at 600 yards consistently. I use it for deer heard control in the late season for some local farmers. The 45-70 is an awesome gun but it seams that you want it to be more than what it is. And your description of a 8" group is good enough ???? I'd think hitting a charging bear in the nose would be much better than in the ear !!! But if your happy with it that's all that matters.
1500fps my friend the 458 is 2200 you are silly indeed
Timex what caliber and gun manufacturer?
Yeah me too wants know what 45-70 consistency hits a pop can at 600 yards...
Custom. trued Rem 700 action. krieger 29" fluted mtu taper barrel. oversize Recoil lug . 6 oz jewel trigger. Chambered in 6.5× 284 Norma. nightforce 15 moa base & rings. Has a Hawke 8× 32 × 56 scope is ok for the money but I'd eventually like a better scope. Shooting 130 berger vld at 3300
Zbone I don't know about a pop can but them boys with them sharps & similar will impress the heck out of ya at the range and a lot of em still shoot the black powder loads
Am sure the old buffalo hunters killed bison at 600 yards and further with the old black powder 45-70 caliber, but there's a huge accuracy difference between a tricked out flat shooting 6.5× 284 Norma or any varmint or target caliber and a 45-70 shooting a rainbowing 1+ once slug, regardless of what kind of precision 45-70 barrel can be built for that caliber, be lucky to hold a 8" group with the best barrel...
Down side to 45-70 is ammo is rarely available, and if it is, it is often lower power cowboy action type loads. I visit close to a dozen gun stores a month and I've seen a surplus of 450 bushmaster but I know very little about it.
The comparison was 12 ga v .45/70 in over-the-counter loads.
You’ve made the point that a .458 WM can be loaded hotter. Okayfine. Point taken.
MY point is that these are ridiculously punishing loads and A) they are vastly more suitable as a Stopping Round than a shotgun slug, and B) you’d be foolish to shoot them any more than you absolutely HAVE TO. Loan me a Lead Sled and I’ll zero it for 25 yards.
Otherwise, if I can hit a “pie plate” at Charging Bear distance by just looking down the barrel, I’m as good as Reality will allow me to be. That’s all I think I’d get In The Moment, and no load is going to be inches off in windage at 20 yards. Recoil & Barrel Time can play hell with your elevation, though, and that’s what I would want to know: do I hold 6:00 on its head, its chest, or just go for the dirt right in front of it?
I guess that would be the argument for a 12 ga. You can shoot an awful lot of trap & skeet without accumulating microconcussions. And if you’re like my brother (who once killed 7 mourning doves with 5 shells from his 20 ga.), that might be worth more than the raw horsepower.
On the other hand, if the first shot is where you need it to be (generally), it’s hard to go too big. And you can practice close, fast shooting with a .45/70 with VERY mild loads if you roll your own, or 300s or Cowboy loads if you’re an OTC guy.
Or you could grab a .22LR lever and never develop a flinch. Took me a solid brick of .22LR to get past my flinch with the 7 Rem Mag.
Zeroing a 12 gauge with slugs is recoil a-plenty. I smartened up and bought a dedicated cantilever-mount scoped slug barrel. I switch out before deer season and need just a few shots to verify that it's still dead on.
That said, I agree that shooting plenty of 22 lr's is great practice that translates when switching to a heavier kicker. One of my 22's is wicked accurate, in spite of a heavy trigger, IF I squeeze correctly. Great 'training tool'.
6.5×284 at 600 yards
6.5×284 at 600 yards
Agree 100% with .22's & practice - training. When I was young squirrel hunting was a big thing we would have competition's the person with the least amount of squirrels (head shots only) had to buy the beer at the end of the day. I accredit a lot of my woodsman & shooting skills to lots of squirrel hunting with a .22 when I was younger.
Ok so I don't consider black bears in va dangerous game. But just out of curiosity I googled dangerous game shotgun slugs & 500 gainers are available. Absolutely not knocking the 45-70 but there are alternatives.
.22 was how I got past my Ginormous Flinch with that 7 Mag. One day I squeezed the trigger on an empty chamber….. and when I opened my eyes…. I was looking at my boots.
Once I started letting the Sako “cool down” while I burned 20-30 rounds of .22, it was amazing how accurate that rifle suddenly got to be…. But I sold it and got a 7-08 instead.
Still overkill for anything I’m gonna do.
And speaking of overkill… I did find a 650-some grain Brenneke slug with an advertised MV of 1600 and FPE of 3800 vs the 2800-some of the Garret 540s.
Good. Lord.
I guess there’s no idea bad enough to keep people from building it! LOL
Maybe the idea there is that if you don’t stop the bear with the first round, at least you’ll be too addled by the recoil to be really bothered by getting dismantled by the bear….
But idle speculation… I think bullets .45 cal and up have about zero practical use for expansion. If a half-inch permanent wound channel won’t kill it quick enough for your purposes, you’re probably SOL without a CNS hit no matter what you’re using….
If it were really all about frontal area, I figure the 4-gauge and 8-gauge rifles would never have gone out of style…. ;)
7-08 is an awesome round in its own right. Capable of taking any deer, wouldn't hesitate to shoot bigger stuff if I had a good load in the chamber.
I've dropped a few deer with it, never had to trail one. Biggest dressed out over 190, smallest was maybe 80. You can bury me with that little Model Seven ;-)
"I think bullets .45 cal and up have about zero practical use for expansion."
I dunno, haven't shot anything with it yet but hoping to get a bear with a 45 cal 300 grain Barnes. If it performs like the smaller ones have for me I'll be happy. And those are absolute hammers.
(And I believe they make a tipped 458, ought to turn that Bushmaster into a monster.)
Love my little .44 carbine seen 2 good bucks this morning one was wide but wouldn't stop. Life is good
Love my little .44 carbine seen 2 good bucks this morning one was wide but wouldn't stop. Life is good
This is somewhat off topic but a brief summary of my experiences with bullet performance... So back in the late 80's early 90's in my area the nw part of va there was a trend towards bigger guns for deer hunting. 54 cal muzzloaders, 444 marlin, a few friends had ruger #3 in 45-70, 300 win mag, 300 wheatherby mag, 338 win mag was very popular. This was about the same time the 300 rum & the 7mm stw came out as well. Even knew a guy with a 375 h&h. It just happened that I was at green top near Richmond & someone had ordered a rem 700 in 458 & never picked it up. It had been there for about a year & I offered them som cash & wala I had the biggest gun on the mountain. And yes I loaded 300gr round nose bullets & shot deer with it. I also fooled around with gas checked lymon lead bullets but I believe the gun had too fast a twist for em as it didn't shoot em well. The one thing this big gun Trend eventually tought us was. Big guns with big bullets designed to hit big animals simply didn't work well on deer. There's just not enough animal there for the bullets to preform. Yes absolutely it killed them but more often than not the deer would run. The heavy bullets would just punch right through them without transferring all that energy or (shock) into the animal. Eventually we wised up & went back to more realistic deer hunting cartridges & lighter bullets designed to dump the majority of their energy inside the animal (hydrostatic shock) I've dropped as many deer dead in their tracks with a 243 & 85 gr hollowpoints as with any other gun I've ever owned. Don't know how many times I've heard it someone complaining about deer running away from their 338 win mag. And ya just can't beat it through their head with a hammer that that bullet is designed to hit a moose or elk or grizz and not deer and simply goes through a deer almost like a fmj....I don't live or hunt in big bear country but would agree that a 45-70 with 350 gr heavy jacketed would be a great choice for defense ..and perhaps a lighter thinner jacketed bullet for thin skinned game.
Timex 6.5x284 would be a dream caliber for me unfortunately I live in MA and our ranges are just long enough for 30/30 type yardage lol.
Danac. he came back ...
Life is good
Danac. he came back ...
Life is good
Yes the 6.5×284 is an excellent round. It's pretty much a must reload round. It held the 1000 yard benchrest best 5 shot group for a while. I do deer herd control in the late season & its perfect for field hunting out to about 600 yards. It absolutely will shoot farther but I limit myself to 600 on animals. Had to many move during bullet flight time over the years.
“ And ya just can't beat it through their head with a hammer that that bullet is designed to hit a moose or elk or grizz and not deer and simply goes through a deer almost like a fmj....”
Another funny thing is that a lot of guys buy those monster calibers and find that they don’t care for the recoil, so they buy the lightest bullets they can find and they work like lightning on deer… and then they’ll go Elk hunting and try to put one of those lightweight, long-range deer bullets through both shoulders of an Elk at 80 yards in the Timber… and they “don’t know what happened…”.
The .243 has a bad rep for the same reason - “youth model” rifles and kids shooting deer with cheap, 80-grain varmint loads. Or grown men who do the same thing because they want to shoot the fastest, flattest-shooting thing they can get their hands on, because Speed.
But don’t you say anything nasty about my .54 roundballs. You can take about any shot you want on a deer and any shot angle you would ever attempt with an arrow with a roundball. Just need to think like a bowhunter and not a comic-book superhero. Helps to be prepared to track after the hit.
Thank you. Danac had sent me a pm & in my response I told him about this buck that had just run a doe past me & I couldn't get a shot. I was still all shook up about it. I decided to wait a while & sure enough she came back out the thicket about an hour later with this guy still behind her. Life is good
Guess I'm your good luck charm ;-)
Heckuva nice buck!!!
Corax those light .243 rounds are deadly on deer as long as you miss the shoulder. I’m definitely a fan of light and fast for deer and my 25/06 was instant death.
"the lever gun doesn't have the torque required to remove the stuck case"
I learned that lesson when I reloaded the rounds and switched from a .44mag Ruger Deerslayer to an 1894 Marlin lever in.44mag. In my experience I could not exceed 1600fps.
“ as long as you miss the shoulder.”
Sounds like a mechanical broadhead! LOL
They may be “deadly“ when everything goes right, but they won’t kill an animal any MORE dead than a 100 grain bullet will, and if anything goes wrong, they may just kill that animal substantially LESS dead.
And that ain’t good.
It's called hydrostatic shock. This is the entrance side that the 85 gr Sierra bullet hit a big doe at I believe 300 yards
It's called hydrostatic shock. This is the entrance side that the 85 gr Sierra bullet hit a big doe at I believe 300 yards
Sierra makes a .6mm 85gr boat tail hollowpoint in their game king line of bullets. It's not a varmint bullet it's designed for deer. When it hits you hear a poooommmph that's unmistakable. Deer just can't take the shock & more often than not the base of the bullet will stuck in the hide on the off side of the hit. I reload but federal premium offers a 243 factory load with this bullet.
I thought we were talking about .45 caliber bear/dangerous game rifle, how in the heck did this thread weave from a brush busting buffalo round for bear defense to flat shooting deer/elk cartridges.... Its apple and oranges... There's no perfect knife, there's no perfect cartridge, each has it's purposes and limitations....
I'm also thinking about a slug gun
Price of slugs these days is just about orbital. Lot of guys here have 20 gauge Savage's and can't find slugs for them.
Yep. That’s a purpose-built Premium Bullet, NOT a cheap varmint round, which is the type I was blaming for the .243’s bad rep. About as comparable as a 405 gr .45/70 load that’s safe in the 1895 Trapdoor and one of the many +P loads.
Good Bullets Matter!
I have’t shot any of my rifles in years now. But if I’m gonna hunt with a firearm, I’ll be using a heavy-for-caliber bullet at some reasonable velocity like 2800 fps max.
I used to think I should pair my 7-08 with an 8-‘06…. But then I realized that an 8 Mauser is already there if you buy modern ammo for it. But a Whelen would be interesting to own, too.
And that’s why the .45/70 over the slug: because big sectional density for mucho penetration, and you can choose from a large number of factory loads, all of which are intended to stop a large, aggressive animal. Not just pop a deer through the ribs.
Rocky, what load with that Barnes X?
Nothing wrong with a 12 ga slug. Now some number 8's to the face as your first rd and then follow by slugs. My benelli m1s90 will unload the entire mag in a couple of seconds, hard to beat. My shoulder isn't going to like it but what's the alternative.
I'm taking my dad out moose hunting and he will be using a 45-70. With older eyes he will need a scope. Bake how far can you shoot with that red dot? How does it do in the rain and fog? Any suggestions for a scope?
A good low-power scope, like 1-4x would do better than a 'cheap' red dot sight, imo. I put a cheapo on my 45-70 and not crazy about it.
Yup X2 Dana and don’t make it a cheap scope as a 45/70 has some kick to it and could throw off the zero.
I've had good luck with the old Nikon pro-staff on my slug gun and ML, not expensive, no bells and whistles. Not made any more. This on on ebay would be good
My cousin uses a 45-70 lever action Henry with good luck. However my bolt action Ruger 350 Legend drops deer in their tracks almost every time. I told him I think he is using big heavy bullets while I use much lighter bullets. The ammo for both is very expensive. The price of ammo for them doubled when states started allowing straight wall cartridges where only shotguns were previously allowed.
12 ga REM 870 slug gun with Brenneke Gold Magnum slugs and nothing will move. The best shotgun ever made.
If you scope a .45-70 be careful about eye relief. A great option (I think) is a detachable scout scope mounted just forward of the receiver. The gunsmith who did my custom work showed me his lever with a Burris scout scope on it, and it really impressed me.
Kevin, my dad was a gunsmith as I was years ago. With the 350 Legend you don't have to worry about eye relief. Recoil is very light and kids can easily shoot the 350 legend. It has slightly more energy than a 30-30. My rifle has a 16" barrel and and is threaded for a buffer or silencer. It has a cap that you unscrew to install the addition. I don't add anything since I love the short barrel for hunting in thick brush, tree stand or ground blind. Most of my shooting is 20-50 yards but it will easily kill deer over 200 yards.
Shuteye when the Legend first came out I was wtf? It seemed too underpowered to even think about but the more I read up the more I like it. I currently have a lever in 35 Rem so it’s so close that it may not be worth it but for here in the northeast the Legend is prime for these ranges on deer and bear. I’m also thinking about loading 9mm bullets in it for coyote to be an all around gun. Not to mention the ammo is some of the cheapest compared to other calibers. If reliable feeding it may be the perfect AR caliber as well. Hmm
I bought a 450 bushmaster plenty of power for me but I only hunt whitetails I have a mossberg with a nice walnut stock paid 440 dollars for it two or three years ago a good buy and is real accurate inch and a half at a hundred yards.
I bought a 450 bushmaster plenty of power for me but I only hunt whitetails I have a mossberg with a nice walnut stock paid 440 dollars for it two or three years ago a good buy and is real accurate inch and a half at a hundred yards.
CVA Scout in .45-70 Govt. topped with a Leupold VX-Freedom 3-9x50. shoots quarter size groups at 100 yards using Winchester 300 grain Jacketed hollow points. This is a 200lb bear that just would not broadside for me. Shot him in the forehead at approx. 70-80 yards. Dropped on the spot and didn't move. I hit him a bit to the right, not because of the rifle, because of me. Mushroomed perfectly to about the size of a quarter and traveled through his head lodging in the neck by the shoulder.
I absolutely love this rifle! Only a single shot, so unless you are sure you can kill in one, you might want something with more rounds. Only show so you can see proof of a 45-70 ability.
I do have a VR60 in a 12 gauge with a 9 +1 mag that will put 10 3" slugs down range as fast as you can pull the trigger. It's sits in my bedroom with a 5 round mag loaded with 00. It has yet to jam or misfeed with about 50 rounds through it. High or low brass, 2 3/4 or 3 ", slugs, 6 shot, and 00, it doesn't care. Lots of rounds at your target very quickly.
Both these weapons are affordable.
That CVA looks like nice 'introduction' to 45-70, at one heckuva price point.
150 year-proven round with millions of rounds of brass in circulation, easily reloaded with load data from super mild "grond squirrel" loads to hot "Cape Buffalo " rounds, off-the -shelf availability in most well stocked gun shops. Versus a relatively new cartridge. .45-70 wins
I have the Henry Guide Gun, some don't like the tube, I do.
I've a 450 Marlin 1895 and put a 4 x Leupold on it. I do not have eye relief issues. IMO it's all the scope you should need for this caliber.
Single shot is not a option as it will be for self defense, so if the bear is gnawing on my leg I wont be stumbling to reload
Yeah, that's why I carry a 4-shot Henry - if I miss 3 times I still have prayer ;-)
For a gun which must do bear-defense (up close) as it's most important job...skip the scope.
I'm playing with a peep on my 22 Henry, not there with it for a bear gun yet. Not nearly as accurate with it as a scope at much distance.
No single shot, no scope.......VR60 or VR80....9 + 1 mag. 3" mag slugs or 00.
Point in the general direction and pull trigger 10 time fast. Wall of lead for in close camp gun.
If I were to scope my Henry 45/70 it would be with a 1.5x 4 leupold. On 1.5 it's like open sights and gives pin point accuracy.
Yeah, LB, I've been looking at a scope in that range, or a fixed 2.5x.
LBShooter I have the Simmons dangerous game on my Henry. At the 2.5x its almost like open sights and I can hit well both eyes open
On a NWT moose hunt my guide killed a charging grizzly at about 20' with his 45-70 marlin. He hit it just below the right eye and the 400 grain slug exited the back of the skull. That's not a real test since anything bigger than a .22 would kill a bear if shot in the brain but it did what it was supposed to do.
After not even nocking an arrow on a moose, we were stuck in the fog for a few days. Just when we got news that the chopper was on the way to pick me up I spotted a bull about half a mile out. Knowing I wouldn't have time to get within bow range I grabbed the 45-70 and shot the bull at 175 yards through the lungs. He went 3 steps and fell. Then the rush was on to get him cut up before the chopper got there. I was fairly impressed and later bought a stainless Marlin lever action, thinking I might use it for a backup if I ever hunted deer on Kodiak. I've since been to Kodiak and I just take a .454 revolver instead of the rifle.
“ thinking I might use it for a backup if I ever hunted deer on Kodiak. ”
Dude… If you’re carrying a guide gun? You don’t NEED no stinking back-up!!!
I got a kick (pun intended) out of this, enjoy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmwBeLxz8Ng&t=257s
Yeah, no. Even in a 7 pound rifle the recoil is 'brisk'. ;-)
How does this compare to a 270
Found this in a quick search - "According to Chuck Hawk's Rifle recoil Tables, a .45-70 with 350 gr bullets at 1,900 fps produces 37.9 ft lbs of recoil in a 7 pound rifle. That is pretty sharp recoil, about double the recoil of a .30-06 with 150 gr bullets. a shade more than a .338 Win Mag."
Figure the 270 at a bit less than a 30-'06.
With big bore rifles bullet weight makes a huge difference in Recoil. Or at least it did with my 458. 300gr were tolerable on the bags & ya didn't even notice the Recoil shooting critters. But 400 gr would give you serious anxiety on the bags & anything more than a few shots & ya had a headache for the rest of the day. It would litterly make your eyes hurt
Yeah, I loaded some 350's in my 45-70 and it's a step up from 300's. Goes from tolerable to 'screw this!' in a hurry.
Watch a review video today on YouTube for the new Marlin 45-70 that Ruger is now making. It was pretty good and a fine looking rifle.
I’m not a gun guy by no means…but someone fill me in on why they never a 30-30 in bolt action ?
They did, just not much demand.
Thanks Danac I never knew this existed
They do exist however people love the 30/30 in a lever gun but if your going to use a bolt gun might as well just get a .308 way better ballistics and ammo choices.
You can find bolt actions in 300 Savage as well, Savage has made commemorative runs in this caliber, and there are some made before the 308 was introduced in the 1950's.
But again, in a new gun just buy a 308.
Huntiam I own two bolt action .30-30s and have owned a few more in the past. They do exist.
Anyone have a Mercury recoil reducer in their stock? Not a fan. Of ported guns, like my hearing to much lol.
OP here, Going with a Benelli Supernova tactical 12ga instead of a 45-70, way less $$$ and great for bear protection, a slug followed by 00 buckshot should be the ticket
I just got my Marlin Guide gun back from being tweaked a little. Inspired by Kevin Dill’s custom Marlin.
It’s the 45-70 guide gun Cerekoted, replaced the recoil pad, added big loop, did a Cowboy action job and a trigger job. Skinner Alaskan peep sight.
Good looking gun there. Have you shot with the peep much?
Dana, I have not used this particular sight much. But have used them on quite a few other platforms. Muzzleloader, AR flip up peep, etc. Drastically better site picture over a buckhorn iron site. For me it’s much quicker site acquisition and more accurate.
I have one on my Henry 22, yeah, it's better than buckhorns, but these old eyes are at the 'scopes are better' stage. Currently shooting the 22 Wednesday evenings in a club league, fun but I wouldn't care to hunt with it at any real distance.
I agree. With my eyes 100-150 yds max.
Nice piece Altitude Sickness...
You guys make me jealous...
Just got my 2022 Hodgdon annual manual. Opened it up and the first feature article is 45-70 Gov't Big Game Loads.
You can get all this data free on Hodgdon's website but this magazine-format book always has interesting 'stuff' for the reloader plus looks at the newest cartridges.
Nothing wrong with a 12 ga, I'd carry my M1S90 without hesitation into the bear woods.
Black bears are legal during shotgun deer season here, but slugs only, no buck shot. I'd punch one with a good sabot load. Wouldn't care to take on a 800 pound grizz with it...
Breneke slugs would do a very nice job on grizzly, just like any bullet, it has to be put in the right spot.
I believe the slug comes in at 600 grains, lots of power behind it.
I shot Breneke slugs back in the day and killed a few deer with them, except they pattern much lower than Remington Sluggers and Winchester SuperX out of all the shotguns I tried and gave them up because they were too had to find when I needed them so moved my sights back up for the Sluggers and SuperXs...
600 grain slug is going to recoil hard no matter the velocity. Not sure I'd want that in a 'defensive' gun. For that amount of recoil a 45-70 with a 350 grain JSP (or Garrett 'Hammerheads') makes more sense to me than a softer lead slug.
Better yet, a guide carrying a 458 Win. ;-)
I wouldn't discount the *guns'* effectiveness, but my own when dealing with that much recoil. Then again, ain't no grizz in these hills ;-)
Oh yeah, slugs and buckshot are badazz under 25 yards...
The Benelli Supernova has arrived, cant wait to get home from work to see it!
Only downside to the 45/70 currently is finding ammo. .450 bushmaster is much more readily available (around me in Iowa) that said I have a marlin guide gun in 45/70 and love it. Plus I have enough ammo for it till I die 40 years from now.
So many people talking about recoil, in a real life or death situation most people don't even feel the weapon going off. That's why (untrained) people in a shootout routinely empty their weapons without even realizing it! Adrenalin is insane in a situation like that! I would take a 3" mag slug gun with an 18" barrel or my 1895 Guide Gun with 405Gr Buffalo Boar Bullets! If you can get 1 or 2 shots off, you will be lucky if the bear really wants you! And then there are the guys that say a 44 mag or a 10mm is sufficient for a charging griz! Maybe it is, maybe it isn't... but you better practice with whatever you decide to carry, and have it read in a second or two!
What's the barrel length carcus? Beauty is, you can buy barrels for different purposes.
I personally think a twelve gauge pump or auto is about the best close encounter bear defense you can get. Mine gets six slugs because I've seen what they do at close range to a bear.
"Only downside to the 45/70 currently is finding ammo. "
Factory loads are generally held to 'mild' levels because of the old 'trapdoor' rifles still in use, and the cartridge is spec'ed for those. (Nobody is going to risk some jackass putting a 'hot' load in their old relic and blowing their hands off.)
It's an easy caliber to reload for. Plus you can load from 'mild' to 'stomp.' The Hornady manual has three different sections for the 45-70 based on what gun you're shooting it in. Trapdoor - Lever action - Ruger #1 etc.
You can buy 'heavy' loads from Garrett etc. and they come with warnings about what guns NOT to use them in. There is no 'industry standard' for +P loads in this cartridge, so it's back to old fashioned personal responsibility.
"What's the barrel length carcus? Beauty is, you can buy barrels for different purposes." 14"
HMMM. No way would I want a pump in a life or death situation. You'll need two hands for a followup shot with a super nova.
Don't you need 2 hands for a lever or a bolt, semi auto is faster but less reliable
“Factory loads are generally held to 'mild' levels because of the old 'trapdoor' rifles still in use, and the cartridge is spec'ed for those.”
How many Trapdoor rifles have you seen at a range?
My dad was given one by his scoutmaster before the SM handed Pop the reins to the Troop and headed for Europe…. so that one hasn’t been fired since before WWII…..
I think the main reason they still load ‘em at Springfield spec is simply that the base-level output is amply powerful as it stands, and there’s a limited market for the up-leveled rounds. So not worth pursuing for the major manufacturers…..
The fishing guides I knew in Alaska all had Benelli Semi-Auto's with short barrels. 8-shot in the chamber to turn them, followed by slugs if they didn't turn. My 40 year old M1-90 has never failed me yet bird hunting. I can't imagine anything else being [more] reliable. I bought it way back then because I got tired of only getting one shot off at birds with my pump and then short-stroking it & jamming the empty back in because I was in too much of a hurry to get a second shot off. If I'm not mistaken, that Supernova has a 3.5" chamber. That's a looong stroke. If I were you I would go to the range and practice firing 3 or more shots off as fast as you can, like if you were being chewed on. Maybe a pistol-grip on the forestock...
Pistol grips suck on a shotgun. Unless you only plan to shoot it hanging at hip level from a sling.
“ 8-shot in the chamber to turn them, followed by slugs if they didn't turn. ”
So I’m NOT the only one to think that you could arguably do pepper spray one better by fogging them out with a big dose of shot just heavy enough to make it through to bone…. Flay ‘em, don’t Slay ‘em…..
But whaddyamean “If”??? Slugs (as many as you can) whether they turn or not.
Not that I don’t think I don’t have plenty of company here), but JMO… if you start throwing lead at a bear, you’d damn well be of a mind to make sure that you kill it Really Most Sincerely Dead in the first round.
I think I still might get a new marlin 45-70, I will use it for moose if I can no longer shoot a bow for whatever reason. And they are really cool guns
Now that ruger took over Marlin you should have a nice gun. Read a review and it was all positive.
Now that ruger took over Marlin you should have a nice gun. Read a review and it was all positive.
Now if we could just convince them to bring back the 39A…..
GF, get yerself a Henry ;-)
Nah.
Not nearly as attractive, and they don’t take down to stash in your pack.
My big bore Henry’s are not as accurate as my JM stamped Marlin Guide gun 45-70. Maybe I got the only 2 that way. I wish I could report differently.
"The fishing guides I knew in Alaska all had Benelli Semi-Auto's with short barrels. 8-shot in the chamber to turn them, followed by slugs if they didn't turn. My 40 year old M1-90 has never failed me yet bird hunting. I can't imagine anything else being [more] reliable. I bought it way back then because I got tired of only getting one shot off at birds with my pump and then short-stroking it & jamming the empty back in because I was in too much of a hurry to get a second shot off. If I'm not mistaken, that Supernova has a 3.5" chamber. That's a looong stroke. If I were you I would go to the range and practice firing 3 or more shots off as fast as you can, like if you were being chewed on. Maybe a pistol-grip on the forestock..."
I'll be good with a pump, its a big step up from my bear spray and combat knive! The type of hunting we do is boat to a location and sit and call, we are not walking around, so I will see what is coming for some distance. The benelli semi autos are nice but cost more than three times more!
I understand your reasoning. You do realize that you can't sling lead at a bear until/unless you know it's not bluffing. Inside of 10 yards. These same AK fishing guys I knew had LOTS of bears bluff charge them to less than 10 feet, sometimes they just ran past them. If you kill a bear more than 15 or so feet away from you, you will likely pay a steep fine and lose your hunting privileges.
Carcus- the Benelli M1 Super 90 has been around for 30 some years and you can find them fairly cheap. I traded a $250 .22 pistol for mine and $150 about 15 years ago. It was barely used and I've had it jam multiple times with game loads or in the cold. I'd probably go with a pump action over a semi auto for life and death situations.
I have shot more turkeys with it than I can remember.
