Bowsite.com

Assuming the unvaccinated are using health care services more than the vaccinated, and based on the numbers reported this is a good assumption, the unvaccinated are causing externalities/spillover costs for all others. Greater demand drives up the price and reduces availability of said services for everyone else.

So our decisions affect the entire community, and this is the basis for the argument that government does have the authority to mandate vaccinations. The government pays for Medicare/Medicaid and they are paying more due to the actions of some members of society,

I am vaccinated and boostered, but do NOT believe enough evidence exists as of yet for the government to compel vaccines or masks.

We educators do a lousy job teaching critical thinking, eh?

Why do they get no mention, when it comes to Mandates? Apparently, they are expected to bow their heads, and file right into the pen, with all the other sheep.

We had 4 (fully vaccinated) people out with symptomatic Covid about 3 weeks ago, at my Office. The ones who didn't get it...already had it. We (the "unvaccinated") have to test weekly, so there is no guesswork here.

I will give $50 to the first person who can prove they changed someone’s mind because of one of these threads. Before this moment…

YOU CANT BECAUSE IT HASN'T HAPPENED. SO:

Stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results

Like they asked Forest Gump: Hey, are you stupid or something?

Government doesn't pay for anything. Government takes money from people, and gives it to other people. If we had free market healthcare and people had to pay their own way or be denied service, incentives would be properly aligned and there'd be no problem. As it is now, we reward idiots by paying for their stupid decisions. Its like giving your dog a treat for crapping on the rug lol. Expect more crap America!

Exactly! Why cant the left understand slippery slopes?

Bring on the Soylent green lol!

But help me understand something, it SEEMS some of the same people against government mandates for Covid vaccines want that same government to take action against fat people.

Anyone…anyone willing to admit the hypocrisy on both sides? Sorry I started this, the same tired arguments broke me down.

Back to Christmas, hope you all have a great one if you celebrate it.

The government doesn’t pay for it, the taxpayers do, right?

So, private sector employers don’t pay their workers, their customers do then, right?

Hmmm, maybe that’s what my second least favorite president meant by “you didn’t build this”?

That didn’t seem to bother them then. Why all of a sudden are someone’s risk factors measured.

Smokers, obese, alcoholics, IV drug users. AIDS patients.

Can you imagine the uproar if someone suggested that AIDS patients shouldn’t be covered if they led a risky lifestyle? I think they should get medical treatment just like everyone else. Because I care about fellow human beings. Even if they made choices I don’t agree with.

Fast food is not the true contributor. It's inactive lifestyles and stress. Very few laborers are fat. Athletes aren't.

Sedentary and lethargic lifestyles cause pounds to add up. Stress as well as it messes up metabolic chemistry.

As far as gov't being justified, they are hardly justified in doing anything these days.

Very valid points sir. My thinking though is elective behaviors that have spillovers for others ought to be paid for by those causing them. Smoking, drug/alcohol use, high sugar diets etc. would force higher premiums. This is the intent behind the “Twinkie taxes”, which I agree with.

Conservative ideology believes we should pay for our own actions. I do separate harmful elective or by choice actions from the uncontrollables like genetics.

And yes, implementation would be messy most likely. Thanks!

How about YOU pay for it then?

When evil knievel breaks 18 bones jumping over school buses, i dont want to pay those medical bills.

My philosophy is let people do whatever, but they gotta pay for their own mistakes.

Implementation of a free market would be messy?

Uh...I'm pretty sure Frank understands that. His point is, since we all pay for medicare/medicaid, if unvaccinated people cause medicare/medicaid costs to rise, we all wind up paying for it. So far the data suggests that's true.

That said, I'm also in the camp that thinks we don't need any more COVID threads. By this point, nobody is changing their minds, and the threads all result in the same handful of guys arguing the same uninformed opinions.

My hope is, time will prove that the vaccines served to minimize the impact of COVID, just like other highly successful vaccines have in our past. No one worries about polio, measles, mumps, rubella, etc... any more, all due to vaccines.

Not too long ago, I shared a link to a fascinating article written by a respected medical professional back when the polio vaccine was only a few years old. He was skeptical of the vaccine, and he cited lack of testing, breakthrough cases from vaccinated people, adverse reactions to the vaccine. and unknown long term side effects as reasons for his skepticism. You could have substituted "COVID" for "Polio" in his article, and it would have sounded exactly like the arguments we hear today over the COVID vaccinations. Hopefully history repeats itself.

Matt

Yes, I think so. Healthcare is not so cut and dried. Eg, people might argue their obesity is genetics, not lifestyle or diet. That’s one reason I support higher taxes on certain products as opposed to trying to price their premiums to reflect their responsibility.

And STDs and AIDS etc, yes, it was their choice but many people throw good decision making out the window when passions run high. This would be messy, just like telling teenagers to quit having sex.

But messy is no excuse not to try.

Habitat for Wildlife stated, "Assuming the unvaccinated are using health care services more than the vaccinated, and based on the numbers reported this is a good assumption, the unvaccinated are causing externalities/spillover costs for all others. Greater demand drives up the price and reduces availability of said services for everyone else."

The same can be said for fat, out of shape people that eat and drink crap and never move. They are a much bigger burden than a handful of unvaccinated people. Maybe you should focus on them first.

Good lord. Will the stupidity ever stop? And let's call it what it is. It is a shot, not a vaccine. Maybe if everybody would have been truthful about that simple fact then we would not have such a divide. Oh right, you can't force people to take a shot.

Matt

I was totally honest. I suggest you look inward at your own heart.

I will go to the capitol and riot

Go hunt somethin

You got a better chance getting a trad guy to wear Sitka than whatever these threads have become.

"Not too long ago, I shared a link to a fascinating article written by a respected medical professional back when the polio vaccine was only a few years old. He was skeptical of the vaccine, and he cited lack of testing, breakthrough cases from vaccinated people, adverse reactions to the vaccine. and unknown long term side effects as reasons for his skepticism. You could have substituted "COVID" for "Polio" in his article, and it would have sounded exactly like the arguments we hear today over the COVID vaccinations. Hopefully history repeats itself."

can you post it again please...i missed it.

No mandate against anything…freedom rocks.

But yes, make me pay for my behavior that causes externalities either thru higher taxes on the product or higher healthcare premiums.

This is a real conservative position, not that of a clown;-)

Kyle, I have killed enough this year, the least I can do is give you something to read while you watch nature;-)

I'd like it to "not" be a mandate, and that people would be able to make well informed decisions based on the best available information... But, with the epic volumes of pseudoscience, misinformation and grift which has been pushed, for to many people, the ability to make a well informed decision has been stolen. And that, frankly, pisses me off... Hence my trend to grumpy irritated and frustrated comments on these sort of threads at this point. In this case, I read HFW's first post, 100% agree, he is factually correct. I've skipped over the rest, because I want to have a nice Christmas week Monday.

We are starting to hear more of that in my area, talk is that Omni is the culprit. Remains to be seen I guess if the vaccinated will use less healthcare services with this variant. And, let’s wait for the numbers.

Moderna announced today that their vaccine is somewhat effective against the new variant.

Those who do not see any value in the vaccines continue to point to the number of cases in the vaccinated population. This misses the point in 2 ways; first and foremost the vaccines were not designed to prevent infection, they were designed to prevent serious illness and lower mortality. They have accomplished that goal even in the face of emerging variants.

The second way people misunderstand the cases in the vaccinated is a failure to recognize the design of the vaccines coupled with a failure to understand two things; first, as the % of the population that is vaccinated is substantially larger than the unvaccinated and the vaccines were not designed to stop infection it is simple math that the number of cases in the vaccinated population will be larger.

Second, people need to understand exactly what a case is; it's clear from some posts here as well as commentary in general (all forums, etc.) that too many people have the perception that a case is equal to anything beyond a person having a positive test and detectable levels of virus in them-period. Many people that are tested are in fact asymptomatic; they are getting tested as a precaution when they have been exposed as a "just in case" response. The bulk of cases in the vaccinated population that are symptomatic are only displaying mild to moderate symptoms, the former being the larger percentage.

I advised a long time ago that the focus on cases would cloud the picture; the only metrics to focus on should be hospitalizations (especially ICU bed occupancy) and mortality. On a state-by-state basis the numbers are as clear as they are striking; between 80-90% (in some states higher) of the ICU bed occupancy and mortality are in the unvaccinated population.

In the even anyone is unaware of my position on a vaccine mandate I'll repeat it; I've never been in favor of one. I have advised any who asked that this is a healthcare decision best made by them as individuals and with a trusted family physician. The risk versus reward should be weighed and only then should an informed decision be made one way or the other.

For those who feel the risk outweighs the reward I have clearly stated both full respect and support for their decision and simply advised them to take every available precaution to protect themselves and their families.

While this storm will eventually pass it will have been for naught if we do not learn some of the painful lessons this pandemic has taught us; we must keep politics out of medicine and public health discussions. If we fail to understand that one fact then we will travel down this same road again, and that would be the greatest tragedy of this pandemic.

Godspeed to all and I hope you all are and remain healthy and can enjoy the holiday season.

Have a happy and healthy holidays, my friend.

Matt

I am not trying to make a statement on the health aspects. I am totally unqualified.

My intent was to look at the disagreements between personal freedoms versus public interests, and at what point is an entity, let’s say government, justified in placing public interests over personal freedoms?

It would be great if folks could understand people can disagree on exactly when, or even if that would ever occur, instead of resorting to insults. At this point I , me alone, do not feel the government has met the burden to place mandates that restrict freedoms. But, after enough data is amassed, if vaccines, pills or whatever, prove as effective at controlling Covid as our successes with polio, smallpox etc., then my position would change even with recognition that a minor percent of the population would have severe reactions to the vaccine, pill etc. it simply is a cost/benefit analysis.

Hope this makes sense?

As with regards to threads on these types of topics, most know me as a supporter of markets. The “market” is speaking loud and clear. There are many “consumers” of these types of threads. They remain amongst the most popular. Interesting to me that those screaming the loudest about freedoms are some of those wanting to take freedoms away from posters who want to participate.

Don’t click on these types of threads, and they will die. You posting your disagreement with them is a perfect example of irony.

One question though........and this is regarding this... "this is a healthcare decision best made by them as individuals and with a trusted family physician."

Have you, or anyone else here or those they know, asked about the vaccination and have had the doc advise against the shot? I'd think that scenario is an extremely rare possibility. Not likely to occur because of the liability, I'd think. Boils down to a personal decision. My wife recently had a surgery that she AND the doc agreed was necessary. The doc performing the surgery required that my wife provide proof of vax AND proof of 3 day covid test showing negative prior to surgery.

My wife, an RN with 35 years experience, and who has worked this whole pandemic, unvaxxed (her decision based on her knowledge, experience, and research) was basically forced to get the vax. This was even after the hospital issued a mandate for ALL employees to get the vax by Dec 14th........and 1 day before mandatory release without providing prove, the hospital then issued a statement recanting the mandatory issue, per gov statement. The whole shenanigan was basically a scare tactic and pissed off many of the dedicated health care professionals employed with the company that went ahead and got vaxxed because of the originally issued mandate statement and fear of release.

All of it, apparently. Or, they willingly ignore the truth.

Matt

I was not advised against getting the vaccine and I'm not personally aware of anyone I know receiving that advice. I understand the liability issue but can see some circumstances that might prompt a physician to advise against the vaccine. People with underlying heart issues might be dissuaded, particularly from the J&J vaccine. Those with autoimmune diseases (e.g. lupus) might also and I think a physician might advise caution in patients under 50 years of age in "robust health" as they would likely either only be asymptomatic or only have very mild symptoms.

I know a number of healthcare professionals who have been put in the position of having to get vaccinated or lose their job; given their likely exposure I think they should have been given the option of getting an antibody titer taken and if highly positive, exempt them from the vaccination requirement. I could agree with a re-test period, perhaps somewhere between 3-6 months.

Spike, you're not alone in drawing a misleading comparison between the US and South Africa (where Omicron has been largely mild). This is truly an apples to oranges comparison as the population of SA tends to be much younger as a whole than the US; what we know about all preceding variants and the parent strain is that the elderly are the population most at risk and the younger have consistently been asymptomatic or only had mild clinical presentations.

We're nowhere near the point of being able to assess the virulence of Omicron in our older population so vaccination offers them protection.

One last point I think needs to be addressed; the misperception that a requirement for boosters somehow equates to a vaccine being ineffective; link attached is to many very common vaccinations; pay particular attention to those that require not just 2 or 3 doses, but as many as 4 or 5. Prior to politics being injected into the discussion this reality was never the cause for concern and worse, unhealthy skepticism as it is with the COVID vaccines.

Who knew Pogo would be so prescient?

I'm sure at least one of my medical ETFs has shares of Moderna, Pfizer, and J&J. So yes, I guess you can say I'm indirectly invested in the vaccines, as well as all the other drugs those companies make. So what's your point?

Matt

I can search the internet and find a few reports of more vaccinated people getting sick than non vaccinated people so the vaccine must be bad. :^) This is 'Merica! No one's gonna tell me what is best for me. (sarcasm)

Personally, I see no need in paying a co-pay to have that discussion.

How many people do you know that would have had it worse had they not been vaccinated? I can’t really say I know any. The vast majority barely knew they had it and weren’t vaccinated. My preacher had the disease, got vaccinated and got the disease again. He was slightly worse after having the vaccine. Anecdotal I know but I think that’s the same as people saying “ they would have had it worse” .

My apologies, I could have been clearer in my meaning of consulting a trusted family physician; it would be to get medical input on risk vs reward for any and all issues and certainly underlying conditions would be the main reason for soliciting medical input.

I agree with you; absent any underlying conditions anyone with a history of being in robust health could find better ways to spend the money instead of a co-pay!

how many of the deaths were among vaccinated people...there's your answer.

I don't disagree with that but my question for you is - has Omicron been significantly milder in folks in SA than the Alpha and Deltra strains? That is a apple to apple comparison and give us a gage to what to expect here. I have not seen that do you know the answer to that?

Actually it makes perfect sense; when you understand R0 to begin with your realize viral diseases tend to expand exponentially. As you move farther from Patient 0 the number of potential hosts for a virus increase exponentially absent either a)some form of natural immunity, b)vaccination or c)both.

And Ricky is spot-on with bringing up which patient populations have had the greatest mortality; as I mentioned earlier a state-by-state survey will show that both the greatest percentage of ICU bed occupancy and mortality lie with the unvaccinated population.

If anyone doubts how effective the misinformation campaign has been all one has to do is look at data showing 80-90% ICU bed occupancy and mortality in the unvaccinated and note how many people question if the vaccines have worked or not.

" For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible."

It's been a mixed bag on if there's been more severe symptomology associated with the Delta variant. I'm not aware of any studies out of South Africa (that would have been very helpful!) but there are a few studies that have shown symptoms to be more severe. Outside of those most speak to the Delta variant being more infectious but not any more severe than any of the variants or the original strain.

One of the studies that did show more severe symptoms was out of Scotland though and they have a higher % of aged population than SA; I don't consider this to be a robust enough sampling to extrapolate it into risk for the US but we'll find out soon enough.

false. the number of total deaths isn't as relative as the number of deaths among the unvaccinated vs the number of deaths among the vaccinated. 2020 doesn't mean much because nobody was vaccinated. no comparison could be made. now that millions of people are vaccinated, and there are still millions of people that are not vaccinated, the comparison between the vaccinated and unvaccinated shows that the overwhelming majority of the seriously ill and dead are among the unvaccinated.

God loves you! Thanks!!!

Matt

I have never seen any data that tracks reinfection hospitalizations and deaths, but I'm guessing it's pretty low. As Mike stated, the fact that the vaccine mandates have ignored positive antibody tests as an alternative to getting jabbed makes absolutely no sense to me.

Matt

It's likely as good or maybe much better than vaccination but doesn't allow the same lack of restrictions as being vaxxed.

That gets people's spider sense tingling.

"Not too long ago, I shared a link to a fascinating article written by a respected medical professional back when the polio vaccine was only a few years old. He was skeptical of the vaccine, and he cited lack of testing, breakthrough cases from vaccinated people, adverse reactions to the vaccine. and unknown long term side effects as reasons for his skepticism. You could have substituted "COVID" for "Polio" in his article, and it would have sounded exactly like the arguments we hear today over the COVID vaccinations. Hopefully history repeats itself."

can you repost the link to this article please. id like to read it.

you are probably right but from a population wide monitoring standpoint, vaccines are easily recorded and trackable...not so much positive cases. im not saying that natural immunity isn't equal to or better than vaccinated immunity but there is no feasible way of proving natural immunity.

I agree 100%. The lack of transparency about natural immunity data is the most concerning aspect of this mess, to me. There is certainly enough data available for it to be considered in decisions about vaccine mandates, but it's never mentioned in the mainstream media or from our policy makers. The only time I hear about it is from people who ask "I've recovered from Covid, and should have natural immunity, so why should I have to get vaccinated?" Nobody wants to tackle that question, and that's alarming to me.

Matt

You feeling OK, bud?

Matt

Matt.

10 to 15... Evil Knevial, Roger Decoster, Ken Dryden, Phil Esposito, and worrying about acne.

20's ... Myles Keller, Roger Rothar, Bruce Springsteen, and Swanson TV dinners.

30's... can't remember, Bill's four appearances at the Superbowl and the Clinton's erased my memory.

40's... started thinking of a 401k plan, health insurance, and job security.

50's... high blood pressure, pension plans, gluten.

60's... retirement, sitting on stand when the sun comes up, venison recipes, loving my wife of 22 yrs, and The Almighty looking down on me and mankind.

LMAO. I’m confident you don’t know what a pragmatist is or ever had a critical thought. I think sociopath is the word you were looking for.

“So, tell me why we do not have immunity labs at every drug store, clinic or grocery store! Funny how you can get jabbed there but get immunity check there isnt it?“

First, a titer check requires a blood draw and a lab to process/test it. Most clinics don’t even have the equipment to do the titer check in-house. They send it to labs. Second, Mike in CT already explained here that there is more to a “titer” check than just testing antibody levels. Tests vary and what’s acceptable levels is not standardized. But you’re a critical thinker so I’m sure you already consider these things.

Shawn- why do you brag about these PMs and affirmation from others? Why is this a must have for you?

Simply…because you are a follower and always have been. You need acceptance from others which is not in the list of traits for a pragmatist or critical thinker. Safe to say a QANON follower is not a critical thinker lol.

And it will be as annoying as the mosquito buzzing around at 2 a.m. on a warm summer night...

Pretty sure you don't have a grasp on any of this either BUT. lmao anyway.

Politically, things will look very different in 18 years, in one direction or the other. But we will survive.

This being said, for those who do not believe in the science or the statistics of the severity of covid-19 or it's variant's you just keep on believing it is hog wash, or a government plot to control us or what other wild though you can come up with you just keep on believing this silliness !

When this disease knocks on your door (heaven forbid) and strikes you or one of your loved one's or a close friend then perhaps just perhaps you may have a rational reaction of Covid's deadliness.

Hopefully it never happens to you or yours.

Remember if it takes one of our brother or sister bow hunters it will just leave one less hunter to compete with !

Now my last comment is in jest, so before you get your panties waxed up you need to read some of the comments posted here.

Asking yourself, am I really this unhinged, do I look as dumb as I write or do I have any compassion or ethic's ?

Sick humor is just as stated.

SICK !!!

Let us get back to a hunting forum that WE ALL can enjoy .

"Why is it that nearly two years into covid we still dont have a treatment for those get ill with covid? There aren't multiple global studies going on to prove or disprove possible treatments. There are no treatment protocols from Johns Hopkins, Mayo Clinic, Havard Medical, etc, pre hospitalization. I just dont get it. We dont treat any other illness this way. Two good friends of mine tested positive last week and one of my sons today. All three were told to go home and if they got really bad to go to the ER and ask for monoclonal antibodies. SMDH."

Walter Reed military scientists test vaccine that could protect against Omicron

Scientists at the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research spent nearly two years developing a COVID-19 vaccine that should protect against the new Omicron variant, plus all past and presumably future SARS-origin coronaviruses, Defense One reported Tuesday. The Spike Ferritin Nanoparticle (SpFN) vaccine showed promising results in animal trials and Phase 1 human trials that wrapped up this month; it still must undergo Phase 2 and Phase 3 human trials. "We decided to take a look at the long game rather than just only focusing on the original emergence of SARS, and instead understand that viruses mutate," said Dr. Kayvon Modjarrad, director of Walter Reed's infectious diseases branch. "Our platform and approach will equip people to be prepared for that."

Matt

Yep, like getting a vaccine as a preventative to stay away from deaths door.

“Once your in the ER, you’re just about fooked because it’s way past the time that it should’ve been dealt with.”

Spot on. Another good reason to get the vaccine and boosters. You can get vaccines way before you contract Covid and it greatly reduces the chance you need the ER. Makes total sense.

Azelkhntr- a shining example of what happens to the gullible on social media. The most unpatriotic thing is to spread misinformation.

The fact is they are and they are dying in numbers that significantly dwarf the vaccinated population.

The link is an excellent presentation of the realities I just described. For the US Section I'm sure there will be some who note that the data is published by the CDC and immediately deploy the straw man argument that the CDC is not to be trusted so this data must be inaccurate.

The CDC does report the data but they do not generate the data; this comes from each states Department of Health and they get the data from each healthcare entity (e.g. hospitals) who are required, by law to complete a reportable disease form.

The data is rock solid and the evidence couldn't be clearer.

Some Karens actually have degrees in biology and microbiology and fully understand what mRNA does and doesn’t do…is and isn’t. Based on your questions, it appears that you don’t know the role of mRNA in cell processes.

Deaths due to the vaccine…I think risk of death from Covid far outweigh the risk of death from the vaccine. That’s easily verifiable if you care to look. Seatbelts have killed people but we adults understand risk assessment and know our odds of living through a car accident is far better with a seatbelt on. It’s so overwhelming that we as a society made it law that you must wear a seatbelt.

The flu…it makes perfectly logical sense the flu cases dropped considerably when using mitigation efforts (masks, social distancing, canceling public events and spaces, etc.) as flu is a communicable disease (spread person to person). If we limit contact with others (like we did for Covid) other communicable disease would also drop. How do you not get that?

“A few colleagues of mine have noticed some higher than normal occurrences of soft plaque and thickening of valves in vaxed patients, both of which will shorten your lifespan, how would you explain this?”

Please provide credible evidence that the Covid vaccines caused soft plaque and thickening of valves. Thank goodness we do not rely on anecdotal data for medical and scientific conclusions. How do you know the vaccine caused these issues?

IMO, you can take what he says about this topic to the bank, instead of believing memes and other social media nonsense.

Mike, please correct me, if I've misrepresented you or your credentials.

Matt

I chose to get the shots because I have asthma and another underlying incurable pulmonary issue, and if the virus got into my lungs it may very well kill me. So I'm covering all the bases, for me, personally. What someone else does is their business, between them and their doctor, not the government.

Well it sure the hell isn’t fact as you portray it. Nearly everyone of your posts can be traced back misinformation meme and social media posts. You never ever post any scientific evidence links to back up anything you say…because it’s MISINFORMATION a.k.a FALSE. Knowingly spreading misinformation (as you are doing) has consequences and is unpatriotic. If you disagree then go look at the capital on January 6th and see how many QAnon flags, banners, and t-shirts you can count. QAnon…a public IQ test and branding.

Covid hospitalizations and deaths comparing unvaccinated who have never had Covid previously vs unvaccinated who have previously had and recovered from Covid

Plenty of data showing that vaccinated are doing better than unvaxxed. I want to know how natural immunity does vs nothing.

If it's as good or better than how the vaccinated are doing vs unvaxxed, that's important information when weighing whether or not to get vaxxed.

Vaccinations have some risk. So far pretty small but if beating Covid is as good or better, those that have beat it could use more info.

It seems like a huge puzzle piece to me but doesn't seem to be focused on when looking at data coming out. It's all vaxxed vs unvaxxed.

“The fact you took my blanket post personally is fascinating and even more fascinating is you think I am genuinely interested in finding formal "google" answer to the questions.“

We’re you inferring your post to me or not? If no, who are these overbearing provaxxer Karen’s you speak of? You don’t want answers to your questions then don’t post them on a DISCUSSION thread. Seriously, I don’t get the statement LMAO. You have questions but could care less to get answers?

“I could careless if you're vaxxed, muslim, catholic, gay... etc.... don't impose your convictions on others.”

Another strawman. At no point did I say I was or was not vaxxed nor was the discussion about my vaccine status.

“I could careless if you're vaxxed, muslim, catholic, gay... etc.... don't impose your convictions on others.“

Strawman again but the feeling is mutual. So only you can express your opinion here but not me? If you want to challenge anything I’ve posted have at it. It doesn’t change the fact that risk of death in contracting Covid vs vaccine is clear. Mike from CT has discussed this many times.

“By all means, please identify what in my post precluded your assumption of my knowledge?“

I could ask you the same thing…overbearing provaxxer Karen’s. You’re the one who asked the question now your offend you got replies. I’m going to start calling you the x-wife as you make about as much sense. See my previous posts and you can clearly see where I got my assumption about your knowledge. Where did the flu go…seriously?

Also curious about why politicians can pick and choose when to mask, while demanding the rest of us be masked in public. Do they have some special immunity? That image of unmasked Creepy Joe bending over and sniffing that little unmasked boy's hair in KY last week tells us all we need to know about the hypocrisy behind mask mandates.

Since you and I last beat the natural immunity drum, I've been doing some reading. The link above is an article from John Hopkins that cites 4 different studies, all of which conclude getting the vaccine after you've recovered from Covid provides additional protection beyond the natural immunity. Below are links to all 4 studies. I know most people here won't take the time to read any of this information because they are used to getting their information from memes. But, you seem genuinely interested in finding the truth, as am I, so I thought this information may interest you.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/vaccine-induced-immunity.html#anchor_1635539757101

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34383732/

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7044e1.htm?s_cid=mm7044e1_w

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/9/21-1042_article

Matt

“Vaccines add protection.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) released a report on Oct. 29, 2021, that says getting vaccinated for the coronavirus when you’ve already had COVID-19 significantly enhances your immune protection and further reduces your risk of reinfection.

A study published in August 2021 indicates that if you had COVID-19 before and are not vaccinated, your risk of getting re-infected is more than two times higher than for those who got vaccinated after having COVID-19.

Another study published on Nov. 5, 2021, by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) looked at adults hospitalized for COVID-like sickness between January and September 2021. This study found that the chances of these adults testing positive for COVID-19 were 5.49 times higher in unvaccinated people who had COVID-19 in the past than they were for those who had been vaccinated for COVID and had not had an infection before.

A study from the CDC in September 2021 showed that roughly one-third of those with COVID-19 cases in the study had no apparent natural immunity.”

My wife had Covid a few weeks ago and were wondering if she should get a booster. It appears the science says “yes” get a booster even if you have had Covid. But I should do some more digging to understand the results of the studies. I wonder how long to wait to get a booster after you had Covid?

Oops…looks like GG beat me to it.

I did reply to your questions. Anyone can clearly see that. But if it makes you feel better lol.

Maybe I misunderstood you. What was the point of your original post so I don’t have to make any assumptions?

It's much easier to track cases (infections, whether asymptomatic, mild or severe), hospitalizations (and drill down to ICU bed occupancy) and mortality as we have a robust reporting system in place already. Patient histories will provide insight into exposures, past infection/suspected infection, etc and reportable disease data shows the rates of hospitalizations and mortality well.

Likewise it's difficult to track infected & recovered versus either vaccinated or unvaccinated as those with asymptomatic infections or so mildly symptomatic they sought no medical treatment don't go into the system so we lose a large set of data points in any possible comparison.

If you had the means to determine antibody levels in the unvaccinated who had an infection (assuming they realize they had one) you'd have a starting point but you wouldn't have the complete body of data to make a meaningful comparison.

We can safely say that recovery from infection (especially moderate to severe) is a good predictive indicator of a robust immune response and as natural immunity includes a cell-mediated response it's highly probably this population would have good protection against most of the current strains with the possible exception of the omicron variant (due to limited data to date).

Those were good questions by the way, I hope I helped a little in my response!

Matt,

Thanks again for the kind words and you didn't misrepresent anything!

The new Pfizer pill is a protease inhibitor that inhibits viral cell replication. Zinc does that as well when it can get into a cell. HCQ helps transport zinc into cells so it can do its thing. Ivermectin has protease inhibitor properties as well as a bunch of other things that may contribute to its success in fighting COVID.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s414...491-6/tables/1

;-)

Good thing real football is dominated by tough guys like Kapernick.

;-)

No it doesn't. Here is what it actually says.

"Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. More than 485 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through December 13, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 10,483 reports of death (0.0022%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. CDC and FDA clinicians review reports of death to VAERS including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records."

I know reading comprehension, math, and statistics are hard, but do you realize how statistically insignificant 0.0022% is?

Matt

But when the data shows you are more likely to die from a lighting strike than from the vaccines, I think it speaks for itself. The fact that you continue to spread lies, fear, and misinformation about the vaccines also speaks for itself.

BTW, how's your $120-125K Bit Coin price by the end of the year prediction working out for you? Feel free to admit you were wrong, and I was right on that bet.

Matt

I quoted what the CDC has actually posted about post vaccine deaths above. See link.

Brad's attempt to mis-represent the information is a classic example of someone who gets his talking points from memes that his Facebooger buddies send him.

Matt

“ How many of those 10,000 were actually going to die from Covid?”

That is not the pertinent question. The question is, how many of the people who received those 485 million doses could be expected to die from a Covid infection if they were not vaccinated?

In (REALLY) round numbers, we have about 300 million people in the US, so figure the 485 million doses went to about 2/3 of the population… So that’s 10 1/2 thousand dead out of about 200 million versus 3/4 million dead out of the remaining 100 million… Does that sound about right? Just in really round numbers…

I guess the most important thing about gambling is understanding the odds.

And just for the record… Don’t forget for a minute that the entire Trump clan has been vaccinated and even The Donald has encouraged others to get their shots… as I recall, He Himself considers the quick rollout of the vaccine to be a personal triumph, so you know it must be a good thing, because The Donald would never lie to you…

Last night, I learned that my daughter's surgery, scheduled for next Tuesday, has been cancelled. My daughter is a RN at a local hospital and the hospital is currently busting at the seams with Covid patients. All scheduled surgeries have been cancelled until further notice. As of last night, according to admission records, every Covid patient currently admitted to that hospital is NOT vaccinated. There are zero vaccinated patients being treated for Covid in that facility.

I don't bring this up to debate the vaccine itself. I bring this up because people (vaccinated and not vaccinate) are being denied proper medical attention (including life saving surgeries) due to Covid...and the sheer numbers of non vaccinated individuals crowding hospitals.

I've read reports of vaccinated individuals landing in the hospital with Covid. Accurate or not, at least those people did what they could to avoid hospitalization. I have a difficult time believing these unfortunate people contribute a significant percentage of the total.

The title of this thread is, Why the vaccine matters. It matters because of all the non-Covid related patients being denied medical attention because of Covid. Whether they had the virus or not, people dying from delays for heart bypass, cancer treatment, organ transplants, etc... are actually Covid victims, right?

These delays hit home for me personally because I was fortunate to have life extending surgery in March 2020...mere days before Covid shut down surgeries the first time. I would be in a much different place right now had that procedure been delayed. At the time, shutting down was unavoidable. Times have changed...options are available...but we're still shutting down.

To be clear, my daughter's surgery delay is not life threatening, she will just have to deal with her pain for awhile longer. Not sure why I took the time to post this...because even my own wife remains adamant against getting vaccinated. I'm not changing anyone's mind, just speaking my own.

“During this time, VAERS received 10,483 reports of death (0.0022%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. CDC and FDA clinicians review reports of death to VAERS including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records.“

It doesn’t say anywhere that all 10,500 deaths were confirmed due to Covid. As you pointed out, stating that all VEARS reported deaths as confirmed is a misrepresentation of the data. Even if your making this wrong assumption, dying from Covid vs from the vaccine is an easy risk assessment. You have a much higher chance of dying from Covid than from the vaccine. This is true for all age groups. It’s pretty simple math.

If you don’t want to get the vaccine then don’t. It’s your choice. But don’t try to rationalize it based on false or misrepresented data from memes and social media. That’s not a good idea when it comes to public or personal health decisions.

Anyone have a credible link to the actual confirmed deaths from the vaccine?

So much for critical thinking.

The number of confirmed deaths from the vaccines is quite small (from linked article):

"Continued monitoring has identified nine deaths causally associated with J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccination. CDC and FDA continue to review reports of death following COVID-19 vaccination and update information as it becomes available."

As has been addressed VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System) allows anyone to file a report; all reports are then reviewed and adjudicated by a team of medical professionals. It should come as no surprise that those who are most stridently anti-vaccine would misrepresent VAERS statistics as confirmed vaccine-caused deaths.

What's your thoughts on blood types contributing to the severity of Covid symptoms? I've read several articles that suggest the less common blood types, like A and AB, are more prone to a severe symptoms. And from my own anecdotal evidence, there seems to be some validity to this. Thoughts?

Matt

I'd say at this point it's still unclear; there were a number of studies that seemed to suggest a link and historically we've known that surface antigens on red blood cells have acted as receptors or co-receptors for not only some viral diseases but bacterial and parasite-caused diseases as well.

The link is to another study that some suggest has closed the door on this possible link; my opinion is this serves to underscore the need for a well designed RCT to look at a potential link.

You ok? Where did those self-professed critical thinking skills go?

I facilitate our Business Advisory Board at my community college. The Board is comprised of private sector leaders who advise us of curriculum changes they see are needed as part of their commitment to the community.

For better than two years they are wanting our course work to have more data analytics. They have expressed the need for graduates to be able to compile and interpret raw data in a useful manner that allows proper conclusions to be formulated.

After reading threads like this, I agree… more training in this area ought to be required.

The only rationale I need is the fact that I'm free to choose for myself. Its nobody else's business as far as I'm concerned. All of the facts and science coming from the bowlibs hasn't swayed me a bit...but then again, I've never regretted ignoring anything the liberals have tried to push.

Agreed. However, if public health is involved there has to be a balance. What if the next pandemic had a 10% death rate? What about 20 or 30%. Do you still agree that the government plays no role in a public health crisis involving a contagion? You should not have the individual freedom to walk around in public with a communicable disease (if the risk of death is high enough) when it can affect the personal health of others. Your freedom does not trump my right to live. We already do this with HIV. It is against the law to not disclose that you are HIV+ and have sex with a partner. Why isn’t 70lbdraw up in arms over this law? Personal freedom right? Also, there is still a choice with the mandates…quit/fired or go through rigorous testing. I’m not aware of anyone being strapped to a table and involuntarily given the vaccine (forced). If anyone gets, or doesn’t get, the vaccine it is still their choice although they may not like the consequences. Also, private employers still can make vaccine a requirement of employment to ensure a safe work environment. I agree with that. You can choose not to work there.

“All of the facts and science coming from the bowlibs hasn't swayed me a bit...but then again, I've never regretted ignoring anything the liberals have tried to push.”

Facts are not “coming” from anyone. Facts are just facts that come from science. True facts are not liberal or conservative. Alternate facts…well that’s a different story. Agreed that the left and the right can spin, misinform, or lie about “facts.” If that is the case then they are not facts…it’s misinformation. If you look at the true facts with the vaccine and your conclusion is that you shouldn’t get it then you likely are not being honest with yourself. You’re letting public politics decide your personal health choices.

As Mike in CT says, consult your doctor. Ask them if you should get the vaccine. Regardless of the answer ask them to explain why. If you go against their advice and explanation as to why then it’s all on you. And that is your right with this current pandemic. If the death rate was higher then I would hope the government would step in to protect public health. But I agree it is a fine line that should be guided by our public health experts…collectively.

The flu can kill, yet, we dont have mandates for it. You could very well be spreading the flu without knowing it. What's the difference? Contracting AIDS is a choice as well. Abstinence and avoiding inter-vienous drugs is a good start. But that's just common sense.

From my informal polls with people who have struggled with Covid, and who knew their blood types, inevitably they are A or AB. For example, my best friends type AB wife got Covid and was down for about 2 weeks. They took no precautions to protect my buddy who is type O. They continued to eat and sleep together, and share the same living spaces, etc...without any PPE while she was sick. My buddy never caught the virus. I've heard dozens of similar stories. On the other hand, I've heard just as many stories of the virus spreading like wildfire thru entire families after only a brief encounter with an infected individual.

I understand that everyone's immune systems are different, some more robust than others, but I feel there has to be some genetic factor, beyond the individual's immune systems, that is at play. But, I'm just a curious onlooker with no formal medical background, so.......

Matt

The key point is that you describe yourself as a "curious onlooker"; I can't emphasize enough how important I feel it is (especially when social media can amplify misinformation!) to be naturally curious and to seek answers.

People like you tend to weigh all available information and not consider the source but how solid the information presented is when challenged. This topic in particular I've encouraged everyone who's asked me to get all information, pro and con and not just look for information that supports your position.

I'd rather be proven wrong and learn something than look to validate a belief that may be completely off-base.

Keep questioning and stay curious-those are the traits of a good scientist by the way.....

In other words, the vaccine did what it was supposed to.

COVID is about 10 times deadlier.

“Contracting AIDS is a choice as well. Abstinence and avoiding inter-vienous drugs is a good start. But that's just common sense.“

With HIV it is your choice of you choose to have sex. But nobody directly choose to get HIV. That’s just silly. If you believe that then everyone chose to get COVID by being around people including family and friends. You know this logic holds no water.if someone in the U.S. contracted Ebola your response would be for the patient to do as they please. Or would you prefer the government mandate they stay isolated to protect public health?

Your question has been asked and answered thousands of times with solid data to back the answers up. You just refuse to believe the facts because of your biased partisan blindness.

The vaccines have proven to reduce the risk of severe symptoms and death from Covid by at least a factor of 10-15 times. That fact is indisputable based on mountains of available data.

Are the vaccines perfect? No. None of them are for any disease. I also suspect the Covid vaccines will continue to evolve, just like other vaccines have in the past. The current Polio vaccines, for example, are different than Dr. Salk's original formulation. The flu vaccines change every year based on the medical community's best information on what strain of flu will be prevalent. None of them are 100% effective in preventing disease, but they have proven to help for decades.

Matt

Hey az, what is your professional background and education, BTW? Was the 3rd grade the longest 5 years of your life? ;-)

Matt

...and YOUR contribution Matt,... IS an asset,...how? You're no different; just the opposite side of the confused and clouded Faucci spectrum!

The more you know.....

Matt

You're confusing a limited exposure (dosage) with pharmacological agents that are meant to be taken over the long term and in some cases indefinitely. The mRNA vaccines are quickly degraded in the body and any adverse impacts will manifest within days, a few weeks at most.

"Why does the vax have to be (adimently) mRNA based instead of a traditional vaccine?"

The science behind vaccines has evolved since the days of Jenner's use of cowpox as a vaccine and will continue to evolve. There are a number of factors involved and they include the reduction of exposure to substances that can lead to adverse events (e.g. the move from live virus in vaccines to attenuated (weakened strains to inactivated virus (dead)). Over the years we've learned that even inactivated virus has properties that may lead to adverse reactions (e.g. allergic reactions or cross-reactions). The mRNA technology removes many of these risks and also improves upon the delivery system; studies now show it not only provides the production of IgG antibodies but IgA (attack a virus upon entry) as well and additionally, a robust cell-mediated immune response.

"Would you vax your adolescent kids when mortality rates are vastly different for varying age groups?"

I'd look at the data first and that would include the infectivity and virulence of any new variant(s). As we moved on from the original strain we have seen an increase in both the number of infections in a younger population and an increase in severity of symptoms. Thankfully, mortality has not shown a similar increase (yet). As with any medical decision I'd make as informed decision as is humanly possible, sifting through all available evidence, consulting with my kids pediatrician and assessing (in consult with him/her) the risk versus reward.

"Myocarditis seems to be a fairly common side effect, I'd rather take my chances with 99.7% survival rate than the absolutely unknown or a poor quality of life from here on out... if need be I'll gladly lay in a coffin for my convictions."

What inevitably (and inexcusably) continues to get lost in the weeds is that the majority of cases of myocarditis are mild and self-resolving. What also never gets discussed in enough detail is "what exactly is myocarditis?" When you get to the root of the condition and learn it is an inflammatory condition you should realize that there are many inducers of an inflammatory response in basically any organ in the human body.

What also gets poor attention is providing a clear definition of "risk"; I've seen countless references to "risk of myocarditis" or "risk of clots", etc. but never an explanation that risk does not universally translate into an outcome. A good example would be smoking being a risk factor for cancer; how many of you know someone who spent their life smoking like a chimney and never developed cancer? Risk should of course be avoided and if impossible, mitigated against. What risk should not be is a blockage to clear and reasoned thinking.

"** if mRNA vs trad vax is preferred simply due to production rates.. is a trad vax in the works?"

See my earlier response; there are many advantages to the mRNA technology and I expect to see this used not only in the development of future vaccines but in other treatment modalities such as the treatment of some forms of cancer (certainly much less toxic than chemotherapy for example.)

FYI, I didn't forget about your question on the COVID pills versus things like Zn, HCQ or Ivermectin. Anything that interferes with viral replication has potential application and provided there are no inherent risks should be pursued.

What we've learned from well run studies is that given early onset, HCQ can produce good results against COVID. Ivermectin was touted (and still is) largely owing to promising studies that showed good efficacy against SARS-CoV-2. Unfortunately, that study was an in vitro (basically in a lab/test tube) study and used levels that would be toxic in the human body. Subsequent studies have not shown any value to date.

Paxlovid (Pfizer) has better performance data than the Merck offering and we may see additional antivirals targeting SARS-CoV-2 in the future.

I stayed at a Holiday Inn once. ;-)

Wow! "Careered as a Certified Surgical Technologist for 25 years specializing in Neuro, Ortho and Vascular trauma." I'm impressed. Where'd you practice?

Matt

Around here the delay of attention in hospitals treat sick people has more to do with lack of staff. It seems that people who were once "heros" for working throught the beginning of the sickness, many of whom contracted the virus and recovered, are not being accepted on the basis of their natural immunity. From "heros" to unvaccinated killers in a few short months has depleted the healthcare industry of valuable and experienced people who don't need a shot.

The hysteria over omicron is way overblow for sniffles and maybe some body ache symptoms.

If we're going to have a real conversation it has to begin with honesty; I've never, ever said there was no risk; if you need straw men to prop up your position that should be an indicator that you may need to re-evaluate how valid it is.

"Yet documented 10,000 deaths, relatively small % but deaths nonetheless. What is the death rate for the flu vax?"

I'm sorry but I really can't give you the benefit of the doubt on this one given it was addressed in this thread not that long ago. You're citing VAERS data which has to be adjudicated by a medical panel; that has been done and the number of confirmed vaccine caused deaths (as of the latest update I had) was 9; not 10,000.

"Considering cardiovascular disease is #1 killer in America I think the induction of myocarditis should be a bit more of a concern. "

Again, I've never stated it's not a risk; please do yourself a favor and look up all other etiologies of myocarditis and then compare those percentages to those attributed to the COVID vaccines. The answer will surprise you based on the position you appear to have staked out. There is also a world of difference between legitimate concern and misplaced paranoia.

"What cells are being modified by the mRNA? Once it modifies the DNA how and why is that not repeated through subsequent replication?"

This is another myth that has been addressed multiple times; the mRNA vaccines do not "modify" anything and they don't corrupt human DNA. With all due respect it staggers the imagination that any rational, thinking person would give this any credence let alone repeat it.

"I've talked to several patients who've successfully treated their CV with ivermectin, but ivermectin isn't profitable. I believe in India CV+ patients are given a package which includes ivermectin, but if it doesn't work I guess its a waste of $0.50."

Or there COVID was taken care of by their immune system, or we're seeing another example of the placebo effect. It doesn't take much digging to uncover other anecdotal events but as someone once pointed out to me the plural of anecdote is not data.

Link is to numbers that are not purely anecdotal and that may in all likelihood have grown since this publication.

I am always willing to engage in any productive discussion, particularly on such an important topic. What I won't do though is devote any time to any poster who seems determined to recycle discredited theories and/or conspiracies.

Considering you keep repeating the same debunked misinformation on vaccine-caused deaths, and you can't seem to understand the actual truth, I think the price of Bit Coin should be the least of your worries.

Now, can we get back to the discussion between the guy who pushes patients to and from the OR, and hands instruments to a surgeon, and the guy who has made a career as a virologist and infectious disease consultant for 30 years?

Thanks,

Matt

For God's sake, read what Mike and others have posted about the CDC's post-vaccine death information. There have been a total of 9 deaths confirmed to be caused by the vaccines. The rest were determined to have died from other causes. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

Matt

In the interest of clarity here is exactly what I posted (and this has not been edited): "Over the years we've learned that even inactivated virus has properties that may lead to adverse reactions (e.g. allergic reactions or cross-reactions). The mRNA technology removes many of these risks and also improves upon the delivery system; studies now show it not only provides the production of IgG antibodies but IgA (attack a virus upon entry) as well and additionally, a robust cell-mediated immune response. It should be clear that I was speaking in reference to advantages of the mRNA vaccines over older approaches to vaccination-period.

"Ok, no DNA impact. So proteins are made via the introduced mRNA and how do they prepare the immune syst for CV? I don't quite understand how they are short lived if the synthesized proteins should become part of a cell, that cell should replicate thus passing along the newly coded protein? yes no? how far off am i?"

The mRNA in the vaccines codes for a specific protein fragment of the spike protein of the SARS-CoV-2 virus; this is all the genetic coding it contains-period. Upon uptake into the cellular ribosomes the mRNA "delivers" the code to manufacture the protein fragments after which it quickly degrades. The manufactured spike protein fragments are what stimulate the immune system to produce antibodies specific for that protein fragment; we have learned that they also elicit an IgA and cell-mediated response as well.

This in no way affects normal cellular replication processes; that is simply Twilight Zone level mythology and needs to be put to bed asap. I don't fault you or anyone else not intimately familiar with the processes involved; that fault I lay at the feet of all the alleged members of the medical/scientific community who know better but for whatever reason have chosen to fan the conspiracy flames to the detriment of the general public.

Brad, this will be my last attempt to hammer some sense into you. The VAERS is a system in which medical facilities are required by law to report any post-vaccine adverse events to the CDC, including deaths. A panel of medical professions are then tasked to determine if the adverse events were in fact caused by the vaccine, or for other reasons. So far, they've confirmed 9 of the reported deaths were caused by the vaccines.

Now, run along and find your next misinformed meme talking point to repeat over and over and over.....

Above all, have a healthy and Merry Christmas.

Matt

Again you're mistaken; I don't think just 9 people have died from the vaccine, I know this to be a confirmed fact. What you continue to post is the reports to VAERS which are only raw data, yet to be confirmed. When reviewed by qualified medical personnel (this includes reviewing patient history, test results, autopsies) the adjudicated results were only 9 of the reported deaths were confirmed as being caused by the vaccine.

" Boy some of you are beyond gullible."

I'm sure you are blissfully unaware of the supreme irony in you posting that statement.

"Do you actually think the government is going to push vaccines so hard but also report the TRUTH about how many people died from it? "

Actually, it's the CDC that reports these statistics and as I've posted numerous times their data comes from each of the 50 states' DOH's who in turn receive their data via the reportable disease system each and every healthcare system (hospital, nursing home, rehabilitation facility, etc) are all required to report with.

Try reading that with comprehension and sparing us future displays of what has to be almost deliberate ignorance.

"Hell New Zealand just posted that a 26 year old died from it but I guess he’s only one of 9 LMFAO!"

I did take a nap earlier today so maybe I missed the news bulletin about New Zealand becoming the 51st state.....

"Not to mention their are hundreds or thousands of people in the health care field that have now lost their jobs for not taking the vaccine. Hmm I wonder why they refuse to get it?"

Some did so out of conscience; they felt this was not a decision that should have been mandated and I've been against a mandate from day 1. Some, sadly did so because they have bought into the same conspiracy nonsense you seem almost orgasmic about.

Now you can either avail yourself of the facts or you can continue to regurgitate nonsense; the choice is entirely yours.

And anyone who who puts their health and/or blind trust in the cdc, fda, niaid, big pharma, or even local medical 'pros' will ultimately reap their just dessert. Many, many do... and will. Be critical, inquisitive, untrusting, and vigilant.

So far, wife and I are OK. So wishing you all a Merry Christmas from our quarantined house to yours!

Just to continue my informal poll, do you know the blood types of your son and daughter? What is the vaccination status of your household? If that's none of my business, I understand.

So far, my little bubble hasn't been penetrated. Other than the occasional trip to town, my wife is usually the only person I'm around for sometimes weeks on end.

I'll pray your kids recover quickly, and you and your wife don't get infected.

Matt

I'm sorry for your loss.

Thanks for adding to my growing poll results that show the most severe cases are with type A and AB blood types. Type O blood remains the clear winner for less severe reactions, even though it's the most common blood type. My poll is still very anecdotal, but the results are consistent enough for me to raise an eyebrow. It seems like such an easy variable to track, but I'm just a medical neophyte, so what the hell do I know. Maybe Ohiohunter, or azelkhntr, can offer some explanations.

Matt

Thanks for your information. In my totally non-scientific poll, I've considered 10-14 days of sickness with lots of symptoms in the moderate level. So, your info is consistent with my poll results.

The last mild cold I had was over 5 years ago after taking a vacation by plane. I took some Advil and went on with life as usual. So I'm not really familiar with common colds, flus. and other viruses. Maybe that's why this subject interests me so much.

Matt

Then why are health care facilities firing staff with natural immunity who don't want to get the shot?

To understand the rationale for the FDA doing the slow walk you need to know what's involved in clinical trials and FDA submissions, whether they be for an EUA or full 510k clearance.

While the trials are ongoing a manufacturer is required to track any potential (and that's a key word) adverse events up to and including death. Until the trial is completed all adverse events are unconfirmed; that part comes when the trial has accumulated sufficient data and then all adverse events are reviewed and every effort is made to assign cause to each event.

One aspect that is included in this tracking of preliminary data is "All Cause Mortality"; this is a critical concern as it counts deaths from (as the name implies) all causes. If a link is found to a vaccine for example when the review is done than that death (or deaths) is (are) assigned as a vaccine caused death.

I don't know if you caught this but about a week or so ago when the initial release came out there were misrepresentations of the Pfizer "all cause mortality" statistics as vaccine caused deaths; obviously this created quite a stir. The actual number of vaccine caused deaths was significantly lower which was why an EUA and then eventually full 510k clearance was granted.

The FDA was probably well aware given how politicized the pandemic and vaccines have been that this type of gross misrepresentation was likely to happen. I would ascribe the motivation for the slow walking of the data to "postponing the inevitable."

It's always easy to second guess but in all honesty I think they felt they were in a no-win scenario.

And Pav. Awesome post to put it all in perspective.

No, it takes almost as little time as it does to purposefully misrepresent the data and stir the pot....

They don't have a clue if it did or not (my opinion).

I got the virus a few months ago. I took Ivermectin, big doses of Vitamin C, D and zinc. Had a mild cold with off and on temp, cough for awhile. Lost sense of smell for a little while and water had a metallic taste and coffee had no taste for a little while. but I kept on working. I am self-employed so I had no choice. I will not get the vaccine. My body made a better vaccine for me.

Worth a listen…

Worth a read....

Untold millions upon millions upon millions of people have had it, I'd wager the vast majority never even tested much less in any serious health threat. Yet to hear it from many, half the people that get it are hospitalized and of those nearly all die. But it's the non-vaxed spreading "misinformation"? Crazy wrong gets a pass.....

Mike, I get what you are saying.... appreciate it very much. And what you are saying makes sense from the "science" and "development" end of it. Those in health care likely treat that info as common knowledge.

But that is not how it was "sold". Was touted as "effective" in the high 90% when that went out the window fast. Did they know that? If so why were we not informed, told the truth. I could link up several statements from both Biden, Fausi..... dozens of others like Newsome, the Michigan monster etc. who have leveraged this into authority and power over the public with statements like "If you get the vaccine you won't catch covid, you won't have to wear a mask, you can travel and gather in groups, etc." All clearly false.

It wasn't sold as "you can still get it, still spread it... you just maybe won't get as sick..." which again may be common knowledge among those in the practice. It is STILL not being sold like that. Maybe those in the health industry all know these facts. Politicians in "authority" over us commoners and Big Pharma are not making facts and reality.... lets just say common knowledge.

We were openly lied to. Again. Over and over in cases, such as the virus coming from a Chinese lab was "conspiracy theory!" and "misinformation!" right up to being accuses as "extremists, qanon!" by, um, some. Well, that is before facts and truth comes out and clearly show they were knowingly lying. AGAIN. Seems over and over. But.... it's OK because, um..... it's for your own good. Nope. Not acceptable. I hear one knowing lie from someone I'm done with anything else they may say.

Now it's do it or lose your job. Your rights. Certainly your freedoms. For what? You won't get AS sick? Maybe? Letting the psychos and power hungry loose on society was a yuge mistake. Should have been made to keep the crazy to themselves and ignored like always.

I want truth, and I want facts.... scare tactics pizz me off. Scare tactics are used for bad ends by bad people... who think they are doing the world a favor.

If you are "at risk" and not a healthy person.... likely should have the shot (or rather.... multiple shots and endless boosters....) it certainly seems it could save some lives. Although my understanding is more people have died of covid in this last year even with the vaccine out than the year before prior to the vaccine? (Ssshhhhh.... that death count was for Trump) Bottom line if you're healthy..... your chances of serious case is pretty low as it is regardless. Children? Many other illnesses are more threatening.... including the flu. But we must give children vaccines they tell us. Mask up the 2 year olds. Nucking Futs.

Misinformation? How about outright lies. And that is from the folks in charge, not the unwashed masses and deplorables. Lock down and mask up. Unless you are one of the Chosen. Then party on dude.

Two years of this crap being shaken in your face. And some wonder why folks are pizzed? Good grief.

So can the common cold.

Matt

Matt

I feel like people just want to hear what they want. Because from day one I’ve heard that vaccines aren’t 100% effective, but they greatly reduce your chance of catching or spreading COVID, and more importantly, it is highly effective at preventing significant illness and death. I’ve also heard that as the virus mutates and new variants are created, the vaccines may lose some effectiveness. I’ve also heard from day one that we don’t know how long our immune response will last and boosters may be necessary to continue to fight the disease. Literally none of what has been happening is surprising and none of it is a departure from what we’ve been told.

Two years of this crap being shaken in your face. And some wonder why folks are pizzed? Good grief.

And two years of people refusing to wear masks and now after a year of vaccines being available we still have 40% of the people in this country who refuse to get them. People love to say “see, here we go again with another wave, these masks and vaccines aren’t working, so why should we continue to do the same thing.” Well, it’s hard for them to work when nearly half the country refuses to follow the guidance of healthcare professionals.

“Physician Zubin Damania, who also goes by the name ZDoggMD, published a rebuttal of McCullough’s claims on his podcast.”

A little bit of a review of this source “ Health Feedback” indicates that they “debunk” any world renowned, experienced Doctors that say anything against the “Covid narrative” and, most of the writers seem to be foreign with strong ties to China. Not obvious at all.

While sometimes prudent to discount "questionable sources" it is a sword that cuts both ways; for that reason it's always wise to examine the material contained and ignoring the source, weigh its validity.

In the case of the cited source many of the exceptions taken with Dr. McCullough's positions are accurate and are supported by bodies of evidence significantly greater than a few foreign writers. (If you check the bibliography you'll find many who are most definitely not foreign.)

Examining some key claims of Dr. McCullough can also lead one to find them to be either completely false, or misleading.

A few glaring examples

1. EUA-the rebuttal is completely factual; contrary to what Dr. McCullough claims the EUA for the mRNA vaccines was hardly a novel program, unused before COVID.

3. He completely misrepresented the SPARS teaching and training resource.

4. As the table clearly shows multiple boosters are hardly something "wild"; many common vaccines, particularly those developed for children require multiple doses, some up to 4 or 5 doses.

7. Completely wrong on asymptomatic spread; the spread of any viral pathogen is directly related to viral load, not symptomology.

I could go on but the benefit would be greater to actually research the counter claims and not discount them out of hand because of the source of the claims.

FYI, Dr. McCullough is also being sued by his former employers and it's not because he's anti-vaccine; it's because he's demonstrably wrong on many of his claims.

Sneeze into a mask. Does it get wet? If so, it’s stopping virus particles. Not all of them, but certainly some.

Everyone look to the sky and wish the only reason you are alive today, happy birthday. And, no matter how much someone tells you how to approach this debacle, just smile and do what you think is correct, as you go on with the life you’ve been given by God himself. Not doctors or, the bowsite Covid police.

A good bit of this whole thing has been a lie. Anyone stating different is a likely a knowing liar. Saying over and over that our situation is due to anything other then the virus is the political partisan letting common sense overrule reality. It does nothing but to further validate the lie.

If everyone would allow others the same, we’d be long past this “epidemic”. And, you wouldn’t have the Covid police ruining a wonderful hunting site with the regurgitated nonsense propagating this lie.

At this point, by default a good bit of us dismiss anyone who is incapable of saying the shots is a choice. And, has done little to stop the spread of the virus. It wasn’t marketed to prevent severe illness. It was marketed as being over 90% effective at stopping the spread. You know, what we were all told by our health officials originally.

Merry Christmas gentlemen. Remember the reason for the season.

Air planes can crash, vehicle accidents, treestand falls, so many things can potentially harm tje general public.

The question is...do we keep allowing the gov to control every aspect of our life. We live in the most blessed nation on the planet, inspite of our faults, but we only have a "degree" of freedom thanks to our 2 major parties . Most people dont realize how conditioned we've become to accepting whatever the gov pushes on us.

To most folks it is the norm..but it shouldnt be. Democrats do it, Republicans do it...chip chip away at our rights. Yes, we need common sense laws but anytning beyond the basics is gov over reach. I think we are better off getting vaccinated but it should be our choice.

I was taught that we were all created equally…not EXACTLY the same. I think a lot of people forget that fact.

The way I see it is folks with viewpoints like yours have selfish misconceptions. Everyone needs to do their part in this and if a person sees getting vaccinated or wearing a mask see as an infringements on their rights they are only interested in themselves and not the good of others.

Mike, I get what you are saying.... appreciate it very much. And what you are saying makes sense from the "science" and "development" end of it. Those in health care likely treat that info as common knowledge.

But that is not how it was "sold". Was touted as "effective" in the high 90% when that went out the window fast. Did they know that? If so why were we not informed, told the truth. I could link up several statements from both Biden, Fausi..... dozens of others like Newsome, the Michigan monster etc. who have leveraged this into authority and power over the public with statements like "If you get the vaccine you won't catch covid, you won't have to wear a mask, you can travel and gather in groups, etc." All clearly false.

It wasn't sold as "you can still get it, still spread it... you just maybe won't get as sick..." which again may be common knowledge among those in the practice. It is STILL not being sold like that. Maybe those in the health industry all know these facts. Politicians in "authority" over us commoners and Big Pharma are not making facts and reality.... lets just say common knowledge.

We were openly lied to. Again. Over and over in cases, such as the virus coming from a Chinese lab was "conspiracy theory!" and "misinformation!" right up to being accuses as "extremists, qanon!" by, um, some. Well, that is before facts and truth comes out and clearly show they were knowingly lying. AGAIN. Seems over and over. But.... it's OK because, um..... it's for your own good. Nope. Not acceptable. I hear one knowing lie from someone I'm done with anything else they may say.

Now it's do it or lose your job. Your rights. Certainly your freedoms. For what? You won't get AS sick? Maybe? Letting the psychos and power hungry loose on society was a yuge mistake. Should have been made to keep the crazy to themselves and ignored like always.

I want truth, and I want facts.... scare tactics pizz me off. Scare tactics are used for bad ends by bad people... who think they are doing the world a favor.

If you are "at risk" and not a healthy person.... likely should have the shot (or rather.... multiple shots and endless boosters....) it certainly seems it could save some lives. Although my understanding is more people have died of covid in this last year even with the vaccine out than the year before prior to the vaccine? (Ssshhhhh.... that death count was for Trump) Bottom line if you're healthy..... your chances of serious case is pretty low as it is regardless. Children? Many other illnesses are more threatening.... including the flu. But we must give children vaccines they tell us. Mask up the 2 year olds. Nucking Futs.

Misinformation? How about outright lies. And that is from the folks in charge, not the unwashed masses and deplorables. Lock down and mask up. Unless you are one of the Chosen. Then party on dude.

Two years of this crap being shaken in your face. And some wonder why folks are pizzed? Good griefD, excellent & agree.

TD-GREAT-Agree. This is some stats I do know. Family vaxed 9. family unvax 13. Vax that got covid 6 of the 9. Unvaxed that got covid 6 of 13. All mild symptoms except ONE VAX was Hospitilized several days & recovered. So in our family more vax % got covid. Oh, 1 of the VAX got it twice & was 2nd sickest of all. 6 are 65+ 6 are in early 40s & the rest are 5, 9, 9, 10, 13, 15, 16, 17, 25, 27. 1 vax, 65+ hospitilized had previous health problems (recoverd from Covid ok) Other sickest was vax that got it twice was 27. Sad thing is how our Gov. is trying to "force" people to get it with threats of losing jobs.. Wrong.

I guess this is what they mean by having your cake and eating it too?

https://www.gpb.org/news/2021/07/28/despite-breakthrough-covid-almost-all-georgia-cases-and-deaths-are-among

https://www.media.pa.gov/pages/health-details.aspx?newsid=1595

https://www.media.pa.gov/pages/health-details.aspx?newsid=1595

https://scdhec.gov/covid19/covid-19-data/cases-hospitalizations-deaths-among-not-fully-vaccinated

https://www.marylandmatters.org/covid-19-in-maryland-2/#fullvax

https://www.dshs.texas.gov/immunize/covid19/data/cases-and-deaths-by-vaccination-status-11082021.pdf

FYI, I could cite similar data in all of the remaining states; all the missteps, intentional or unintentional at the Federal level (and as TD cites there have been some doozies) aside the evidence is clear and indisputable; the incidence of severe illness/hospitalization/ICU bed occupancy and mortality is overwhelmingly in the unvaccinated population.

I have no issue and only full support for people who feel that vaccination should only be a fully-informed, personal decision. I have serious issues with those who insist that this is some Machiavellian scheme and the vaccines aren't making a difference.

Liars lie, facts don't.

Just telling it from my viewpoint. We have a small family. It’s just her and I in our house, and we don’t do much as far as hanging around with crowds or social groups. If we aren’t at home, we’re in the woods somewhere enjoying the solitude. I don’t know anyone that has passed away from this. I wore the mask and got mildly infected. My wife had 1 shot and a mask and still got infected. Other than that it’s been a big nothing burger for us. I don’t feel the need to be ashamed of myself because I have a strong immune system! But apparently that is what is expected us all. I haven’t hogged up an emergency room, nobody I’m my circle has died.

By the way, I consider myself a realist. I believe most of what I witness and only a fraction of what I hear.

Liars lie, facts don't.

Worth repeating.

Liars lie, facts don't.

Worth repeating.

You do know that viruses are transmitted many different ways. I also believe that Covid being transmitted through water droplets was debunked as a main source of transmission. I'm curious how often you are changing your cloth mask once it gets saturated from your breath, sneezing, etc.?

The virus can transmit multiple ways, all related to respiratory fluids. The same ones a mask helps contain.

SARS-CoV-2 is transmitted by exposure to infectious respiratory fluids The principal mode by which people are infected with SARS-CoV-2 (the virus that causes COVID-19) is through exposure to respiratory fluids carrying infectious virus. Exposure occurs in three principal ways: (1) inhalation of very fine respiratory droplets and aerosol particles, (2) deposition of respiratory droplets and particles on exposed mucous membranes in the mouth, nose, or eye by direct splashes and sprays, and (3) touching mucous membranes with hands that have been soiled either directly by virus-containing respiratory fluids or indirectly by touching surfaces with virus on them.

People release respiratory fluids during exhalation (e.g., quiet breathing, speaking, singing, exercise, coughing, sneezing) in the form of droplets across a spectrum of sizes. These droplets carry virus and transmit infection.

And I clean my mask about once a week. Yet to contract COVID.

Yes I don't post much here because, clearly, there are so many people here that think they have this figured out that any opposing opinion gets ridiculed immediately.

Go read what Mike posted. He is informed and a voice of reason. Unfortunately you and the other "experts" think science and facts don't mean anything because you know a cousin who's brother-in-law got COVID and didn't die.

I am going to keep trying to avoid commenting on the ridiculous things said here but I can't promise anything. At time the stupidity gets to be too much .

That’s what is killing us, the desire to make everyone/everything fit into a simpleton view, ie since I believe the Covid vaccine shots work as intended I must be a liberal that watches CNN. It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.

Huh? Makes absolutely no sense. Regardless it’s all BS without something to back it up. How about a source for your number.

“I also believe that Covid being transmitted through water droplets was debunked as a main source of transmission.“

And you would be wrong. See source.

“ The principal mode by which people are infected with SARS-CoV-2 (the virus that causes COVID-19) is through exposure to respiratory fluids carrying infectious virus. Exposure occurs in three principal ways: (1) inhalation of very fine respiratory droplets and aerosol particles, (2) deposition of respiratory droplets and particles on exposed mucous membranes in the mouth, nose, or eye by direct splashes and sprays, and (3) touching mucous membranes with hands that have been soiled either directly by virus-containing respiratory fluids or indirectly by touching surfaces with virus on them.”

You really can’t see the contradiction and irony in your statement? You make a decision based on the anecdotal sample size of 2…then recommend doing research and keeping an open mind. Seriously?

At least 75 members of Congress - from both parties - hold stock in Moderna, J&J and Pfizer, possibly opening up some ethical questions. Lawmakers from both parties made suspicious trades on stocks that had a relationship with COVID.

I don't fault the vaccine makers because getting a vaccine to people was a priority for the Trump and Biden administrations.

https://nexusnewsfeed.com/article/health-healing/how-the-covid-19-vaccine-destroys-your-immune-system/

https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/11/17/covid-vaccines-damage-the-immune-system-and-cause-illness-and-death/

https://www.christianitydaily.com/articles/13729/20211026/covid-vaccines-destroy-natural-immunity-to-make-people-dependent-on-booster-shots-uk-health-security-agency-reveals.htm

https://lifeanddeathandallbetween.wordpress.com/2021/08/23/pfizer-vaccine-destroys-t-cells-weakens-the-immune-system-study-dr-eddy-bettermann-md/

That's just a euphemism for "go find 100 trolling bullshit sites that confirm what I want to hear." Research? Open mind? Bullshit.

“It's a fact even by the CDC that the vaccinated can still get covid, still spread covid, and can still die of covid.”

You keep repeating this ad nauseam. You know it is misleading. It’s also a fact that the vaccine reduces transmission rates and risk of death by significant amounts.

It’s a fact that those using seatbelts still get in car accidents and still die. Your logic…seatbelts don’t work. See how stupid you sound.

Agreed…I could care less if you get vaccinated or not. Just stop with the spreading of misinformation and BS. Do your medical research using medical journals and keep an open mind.

Your point about members of Congress owning stock in Big Pharma companies is kinda meaningless. Anyone with a medical-related mutual fund in their retirement account is likely to be invested in Pfizer, Moderna, J&J, etc.... I made a nice chunk of money off Pfizer and Moderna stock after the Covid market crash. That was a no-brainer call, since those companies were always touted as the most likely to develop a vaccine first. I applaud the members of Congress who had the foresight to invest in them.

Anti-vax denialism and conspiracy theories is nothing new. I've been reading about the history of the polio vaccines, and much of the rhetoric was the same. Don't trust the science, it's all about government control, ineffective and deadly, long term side affects, a Big Pharma scam, yada yada yada....same playbook different disease.

For a real hoot, research what the chiropractic profession had to say about the polio vaccine. They claimed polio was from "spinal tension" caused by over-fatigue and it should be treated with hot packs and rest, not "injections from diseased animal cells." That nonsense went on for years, even after polio had been eradicated from the US due to the vaccines.

"History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes." Mark Twain

Matt

Please read that out loud to yourself and tell me it makes any sense.

Thanks for the explanation on your number. Death risk is not equally distributed across the population unlike your rate calculation. Your number may be relevant to a healthy 18 year old but be misleading to someone over 65.

What about the millions of people that didn't need a seatbelt in the first place. I guess they're causing all of the accidents because they aren't wearing them?? Stupid is as stupid does.

Umm....not to nitpick, but that percentage rounds off to 7 hundredths of 1%. But math is hard.

And, to assess the risk of dying form Covid by dividing the entire world's population by the reported deaths, is kinda silly. It doesn't account for demographic variables like age, health, and exposure level to the virus, etc....

But, hey, if it fits your narrative....

Matt

If you’re in a car and use a seatbelt you reduce your risk of death in a car accident. If you human you can get Covid so if you get a vaccine you reduce your risk of death. Both are factual but some may be more high risk than others. But vaccines aren’t just to reduce your risk of death. It’s also to reduce chances of transmission, hospitalization, mutations, and chronic issues.

(And yes, I will get the booster, because there are still people out there who love me ;-) )

But vaccines are not simply about your own risk. In making my decision to get the vaccine I also consider the risk of those i care about…family and friends. I considered the risk of side effects of the vaccine itself (from credible peer-reviewed medical journal sources). I also considered overall public health and the livelihood of those whose jobs and businesses that were affected the most. The least I could is get vaccinated and follow public health guidances and recommendations to help.

Call me crazy.

Unfortunately, some people dont survive. There has been so much BS floating around I understand why some people have had a hard time deciding on whether or not to get vaccinated.

One thing is for sure...more people have died from the Covi than those that have died from the vaccine.

The problem I have is people trying to force people to do something that should be their choice. The leftist are for choice when it comes to snuffing out the life of an unborn child but thats just about where their free choice ends.

I dont like gov infringement be it Democrat or Republican. Leftist and Neocons both have done a good job at infringing on our rights. Its clear we have a lot of folks in this country that dont have a clue what real freedom is. Just because the gov says so dont mean its the right thing or the just thing to do. I think we should get vaccinated but only if its our choice.

I don't fault anyone for having a healthy level of skepticism regarding the government, particularly during this pandemic.

Where I take issue however is simply dismissing easily confirmed facts; if you feel the facts presented are wrong present a counter argument; this is how productive discussions begin. You're simply taking your ball and going home; given the gravity of the situation shame on you.

"On a positive note your chances today of dieing with the rona are only 0.0679% worldwide. Your chances of dieing from the rona are far far lower."

I think your understanding of how case fatality rates (CFR) are calculated is seriously flawed; you don't take the entire population as the denominator in the calculation you only use the total number of confirmed cases, hence the term "case fatality rate".

In the US as of mid-December the overall CFR as Ryan pointed out above is approximately 1.6%; this number is an overall CFR and when you look at age demographics once you hit 70 years of age the CFR is higher and it is higher still at the 80 year old mark.

I've posted 7 sources, some of which not only give breakdowns of vaccinated versus unvaccinated but also give increased risk based on vaccination status; review those numbers and if you feel you have a valid argument, by all means make one.

"People have died from these vaccines, and not just a few. Get away from the mainstream media and do your own research with an open mind."

If you are using figures from VAERS you'd be correct but only in the sense of reported numbers, not adjudicated ones. Anyone can report a suspected adverse event with VAERS, no medical background or even playing a doctor on TV required. Adjudicated VAERS data (and I posted this earlier, perhaps on another thread so apologies if it isn't on this one) confirmed only 9 deaths as due to the vaccines out of over 10,000 reported to VAERS.

If you saw the first release of the FDA trial data for the Pfizer vaccine you may have seen something along the lines of 55,000 deaths from the vaccine during the clinical trials. Again, this is a gross misrepresentation of actual data. During clinical trials vaccine manufacturers are required to list "all cause mortality" in trial participants. Again, this is simply a raw number of mortality due to any cause; only later are the deaths reviewed by qualified medical personnel who then examine patient histories, test results and autopsy results to ascertain if the death was caused by the vaccines. Again the number was exponentially lower and well within acceptable standards for EUA granting by the FDA.

All of the information I've just shared on vaccine deaths is easy to obtain, unless you're looking at websites like www.bigpharmaiskillingusall.com.

"A virus that is 99.8% survivable without the vaccine according to the CDC and other health organizations and some want to act like it's the black plaque."

I posted data as I mentioned from 7 states; I could post the other 43 states data and it would show the same picture; the overwhelming number of ICU beds taken up and mortality are among the unvaccinated population. Again, very easily confirmed information. Survival rate isn't 99.8% and again, looking at numbers for the entire spectrum of ages paints a misleading picture. When you also factor in underlying co-morbidities the numbers get still uglier.

FYI, the meme about the vaccine manufactures raises the art of dealing in half-truths to new heights. While there is truth contained in the meme what's left out is especially telling. None of the claims, even with misleading presentation come remotely close to dealing with the crux of the matter, the safety and efficacy of the vaccines.

Again, anyone inclined to research the claims in the meme can easily peel back the onion and see it's what the meme isn't telling you that's most important.

A few "for examples"

"For instance, in 2004, the Warner-Lambert company — which Pfizer acquired four years earlier — pleaded guilty to illegally marketing the epilepsy drug Neurontin “even when scientific studies had shown it was not effective,” the Department of Justice (DOJ) said in a statement.

Pfizer agreed to pay $430 million, said that it “cooperated fully with the government to resolve this matter,” and stressed the alleged violations occurred before Pfizer acquired Warner-Lambert."

"Then, in 2009, the company paid the largest settlement for health care fraud to date, totaling $2.3 billion, according to the DOJ.

In that case, the company’s subsidy Pharmacia & Upjohn Company pleaded guilty to promoting a painkiller Bextra “for several uses and dosages that the FDA specifically declined to approve due to safety concerns,” and paid a $1.3 billion criminal fine, the DOJ said in a statement. Bextra had been taken off the market four years earlier.

Additionally, Pfizer paid $1 billion to resolve civil claims regarding not only Bextra but also the antipsychotic Geodon, the antibiotic Zyvox, and the anti-epileptic drug Lyrica, per the statement. Pfizer denied all of those accusations, aside from acknowledging the improper promotion of Zyvox, Reuters reported at the time."

"“Moderna: Has never brought a vaccine to market since its founding, despite fielding 9+ vaccine candidates, none of which made it through phase 3 clinical trials,” the meme alleged.

Similarly to the Pfizer allegation, the claim was rooted in truth. But the statement failed to explain how it was relevant to Moderna’s COVID-19 vaccine, as well as erroneously implied the company’s other vaccines did not reach mass distribution solely because of shortcomings in the products themselves, such as their effect on patients or alleged lack of success preventing viral outbreaks.

Rather, other barriers — such as a lack of funding for research — also played a role in the pharmaceutical company’s vaccine history."

"Moderna’s Influenza H7N9 vaccine was only advancing “subject to funding,” negating the meme’s implication that the company halted development solely due to safety concerns or ineffectiveness.

Furthermore, Moderna’s Cytomegalovirus (CMV) vaccine was the first of its kind to enter a Phase II clinical trial, showed “promising” results so far, and was scheduled to progress in 2021, The Medicine Maker reported. Studies on the company’s other immunizations remained ongoing, too."

That's enough of me doing someone else's homework; you can find similar lack of context for J&J and AstraZeneca if you are inclined to research the facts.

What's become abundantly clear to me is that some (here and in general as seen on social media, etc) have adopted the worst type of "scientific process"; start with a conclusion and then work backwards, often leaving themselves with having to force facts to fit that conclusion.

That approach is best summed up by the acronym GIGO-Garbage in, garbage out.

As I said in my last post, liars lie, facts don't.

Once I have the disease, how does being vaccinated lessen the odds of me spreading it to others? It doesn’t and if the vaccine puts my health more at risk by having it why do I need to get it for others?

Mike has discussed this multiple times and posted links to studies. There is one medical journal article in the link. There are many out there if you look.

The scientific data shows that vaccines significantly reduce transmission rates. Fact.

It’s still a fact.

the NFL is changing their testing - if you had shots, you'll not be tested unless you have visible symptoms. So many players getting positive covid testing they have decided they don't want to know. 99% of NFL has had shots

these are not breakthrough cases - its simply that the shots don't give anywhere near the protection they were sold to

also, its really flawed to take millions of people who were 99.99% likely to NOT get covid bad anyway, give them shots, and say '"hey look, they didn't get covid bad"

“ The NBA is aware of 34 cases of fully vaccinated players or team staff becoming infected with a breakthrough case of COVID-19 through November 19, including 31 that had detectable levels of antibodies significantly lower than those observed in the remaining testing population, according to the report. Three of the 34 infections happened with "not detected" antibody levels, the study said.”

“ these are not breakthrough cases - its simply that the shots don't give anywhere near the protection they were sold to”

Call it whatever you want but we know for sure that antibodies drop over time whether from vaccination or natural immunity. That’s why me and my family got boosters prior to the holidays. We knew we would be at family gathering.

Again, the benefits of the vaccine is more than protection to yourself.

This is from nebraskamed.com -

"If you've had COVID-19 before, does your natural immunity work better than a vaccine?

The data is clear: Natural immunity is not better. The COVID-19 vaccines create more effective and longer-lasting immunity than natural immunity from infection.

- More than a third of COVID-19 infections result in zero protective antibodies - Natural immunity fades faster than vaccine immunity - Natural immunity alone is less than half as effective than natural immunity plus vaccination."

There are many more credible sites with the same information

The studies are small, and fairly inconclusive. If there were huge waves of people Becoming reinfected, it would be all over the news daily. Myself, and my personal Dr cannot find a whole lot on the subject. There’s a lot of speculation yes. But very little fact that even he can find.

Now keep in mind, Phil, your articles are talking about antibody counts in the body. My brother was double vaxed plus booster recently. And he’s not showing antibodies in his system.

Now, the reason I view that as valid is, an ACTUAL reinfect and antibody counts are different to me. Sure, there’s lot of information on which one provides a better antibody count in the system. But, there are very very few reinfect cases documented.

Number of recovered, unvaccinated who later get hospitalized or die from Covid

VS

Number of vaccinated with no previous infection who get hospitalized or die from Covid.

Anecdotally, I know quite a few vaccinated people who have then had symptomatic Covid but zero people who had Covid, recovered and then had symptomatic Covid again.

That doesn't prove anything but we are all making decisions on information we have. Its human nature to be hesitant when what you see, hear and personally experience is different than what you are being told. Especially when the one telling you has a history of being wrong or shaping a narrative to fit an agenda.

I do however, know many people who have gotten vaccinated, and then got Covid later on.

I also know people who have gotten vaccinated, and have had way more sickness in their lives this year than they’ve ever had.

I am still of the belief that, Many medical professionals who are virologist profession, are being silenced. The bigger belief is, it’s the NEEDLESSLY vaccinated that create these variants.

Just like broad heads and bows, there’s opinions on BOTH sides of this coin.

What scares me is, we can’t ever hear the other side. There’s never been a true debate and a lot of medicalProfessionals are quiet about it for fear of being canceled.

Everyone needs to do what they see fit for themselves and their families. This thing is barreling towards enormous civil unrest.

I saw a polling statistic this morning showing @37% of Republicans are not vaccinated, vs. 8% of Democrats. If they can find that by polling, they sure can ask the questions you are asking, as well as my big question about maskers vs. non-maskers. Sure, it wouldn't be "scientific", but neither is a lot of the "official" information being fed to us by Fauci and the media. I know a number of dedicated maskers who are also vaccinated, who got COVID anyway.

Matt.

Obviously there will be folks who believe the story of a brother-in-law’s grade school friend over your rational post.

covid19 vaccines do not contain graphene oxide.

OK, LOL! You are so much smarter than a doctor, you just don't know how to use spell check.

If doctors are so terrible, why do you even bother consulting with them? That’s stupidity!

Any of you have loved ones who have faced serious health challenges recently AND realize the major advances taking place with complex issues like lung cancer and how many lives have been extended? Science is causing this to happen, not rhetoric from ignorant keyboard warriors.

You bet China is laughing at us and our education system.

I don’t get advice from a mechanic I don’t trust, why would I take advice from a doctor I don’t trust.

Well "Stonegirl" may have just broken the Bowsite record for "fastest new poster to be shown the exit door".

I wonder if not knowing the difference between "you're" and "your" was the last straw after "retarted".....

LOL. azelkhuntr, you provide some of the most uninformed posts on these COVID threads, but that one may take the cake!

The more time that goes by, the less and less the above is true.

Biden said "very very low" chance to get covid if you've had the shot - that's has not proven to be true at all.

The NBA/NFL is healthy strong young men .... and they're getting covid at high rates and the shots are not preventing/stopping that. I think it matters to look at things like that

and again, you cannot take 100 people that are 99.9% chance not going to get sick from covid, give them shots and say "look how great the shots worked, they didn't get bad sick from covid !!"

that's what's happening - how about take sampling from 65 years and older people who are already sick/compromised/obese and tell me what % success the shots have been at preventing covid - I'd like to see those stats

I was forced to get the shot - and I will never get another. I felt horrible for 72 hours physically but mentally, I still feel horrible from being bullied/threatened with my job to get it. Next time, they can fire me and I'll get a lawyer and see where it goes

Are we removing personal responsibilities from our social construct? Is this why the left wants to censor everything? Because some people are too ignorant to think for themselves. Life is difficult…even more so if you go thru it deaf, dumb, and blind.

I'd advise you to research how data has been compiled for the COVID-19 pandemic (and this is exactly how it has been kept for every preceding epidemic by the way); it's obvious from that statement that you lack an understanding of the process at even the most basic level.

The attached link is but one of literally hundreds I could post that show essentially the same success story; for your edification I'll highlight the >65 year old demographic (FYI-if you are in the camp that sees "CDC" and immediately discounts what follows let me advise you that MMWR comes from reportable disease findings from every hospital and health care entity in all 50 states; they provide the data to their state DOH's who in turn roll it up to the CDC):

For the period of data collection in the cited source (up to July 17, 2021)

85% of the cases of COVID occurred in the population not fully vaccinated

88% of the hospitalizations for COVID occurred in the population not fully vaccinated

90% of the deaths from COVID occurred in the population not fully vaccinated.

With all due respect; anyone who opines that the vaccines haven't been effective in preventing serious illness and mortality is either in complete denial or simply hasn't been looking very hard to find the mountains of evidence supporting their effectiveness.

Private freedoms must be balanced against our responsibility to society at large, at least for those of us who interact with others.

This position is ethically and morally sound, we have responsibilities to life, both born and unborn.

Let’s say you are correct and that natural immunity will prove to last longer.

At least for many here, that does not negate the position of encouraging safe vaccines to reduce suffering and death in the here and now as we learn more with passing time.

Again, I am convinced this is the moral and ethical position on par with protecting the unborn that so many rightfully advance for a just society.

My point is, if I had a reason to feel I was in grave danger with Covid, I wouldn’t be counting on my fellow citizens to keep me safe! Would you?

So, if YOUR life depended on it, would YOU still be out in public feeling comfortable that 100% of the people around you give a damn about your health risk?!

As we all know, not everyone follows the same religion.

So are you saying you trust everyone around you, or that god will keep you safe from everyone around you? It really is a simple question.

Juvenile debate tactic. Ask a ridiculous question trying to walk someone into to a non-defensible position.

No, especially at my age, I don’t trust everyone. Nor do I find a conspiracy in everything as your history here shows.

Those not willing to accept moral/ethical justifications still lose on the secular side as pointed out with my first post. We must be held accountable for our externalities.

No man is an island Az, no matter how much you try and sell it.

That’s not true. In Japan, they are still using the vaccine, they have a relatively high vaccination rate, and ivermectin is not approved for use on COVID.

Like I said, it’s a simple yes or no. What’s juvenile or ridiculous about a straight forward question? It doesn’t give you the opportunity to twist your reply with if’s and butts? Seems the juvenile action is your effort to deflect a simple question. You’re on the side that wants to convince everyone to participate. So, sell it to us in a way we understand. Problem is, over the last 2 years it’s made no sense at all. I believe there are plenty here that agree with that statement. I think you agree as well, but after 2 years, nothing has changed to bolster your stance. Or anyone else’s for that matter.

I have no problem with you or anyone challenging anything I post; with respect though I'd take it much better if it wasn't so apparent that you didn't read what I posted. Your referencing 2020 is odd given the link I posted was for the MMWR data from April-July 2021; 2020 data wasn't included.

Additionally, I also said the following: "The attached link is but one of literally hundreds I could post that show essentially the same success story;"; if you look up what population is comprising the bulk (80-90% and up) of hospitalizations, ICU beds and mortality it is the unvaccinated. In the spirit of generosity I'll give you a head start; look up PA, WA, IN, SC and GA. You'll find data that runs along the exact same lines as what I posted and in some cases (some other states you can look up if you like) the data is as recent as a few weeks ago.

I'm sorry but the vaccines are being effective in mitigating against severe illnesses and mortality; this point is not even remotely arguable.

I'll reiterate my earlier point; those who claim otherwise are either deep in denial, haven't been looking very hard or to quote Ricky, "have an agenda."

Matt

You received an answer, one that fits the complexity of the situation. Simpletons like simple answers, too bad most of life is not so simple.

Matt

I got your answer…all I can say is the more you deflect, the more obvious the real answer becomes.

Why would I go to a source like "Infowars and Covidland" to find information? I've never even heard of those sources. Thanks, I'll stick with proven sources like the Mayo Clinic, John Hopkins, and Mike in CT for my information on Covid. YMMV.

Matt

So you're a mind reader? That must be a great talent to have. Care to share how you acquired it?

Matt

Happy New Year bother.

“ No, especially at my age, I don’t trust everyone.”

I answered with a yes or no. How am I being rude?

Cite your sources, or I’ll continue to think of you as a sheep who believes any misinformation that confirms his biases. I can’t find a single Mayo Clinic article that supports the use of Ivermectin to treat Covid.

Matt

"Ivermectin. Ivermectin isn't a drug for treating viruses and the FDA hasn’t approved use of this drug to treat or prevent COVID-19. Taking large doses of this drug can cause serious harm. Don't use medications intended for animals on yourself.

Hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine. These malaria drugs were authorized for emergency use by the FDA during the COVID-19 pandemic. However, the FDA withdrew that authorization when data analysis showed that the drugs are not effective for treating COVID-19. They can also cause serious heart problems."

Nice to hear from you, Dan

Matt

"Meta-analysis of 15 trials found that ivermectin reduced risk of death compared with no ivermectin (average risk ratio 0.38, 95% confidence interval 0.19–0.73; n = 2438; I2 = 49%; moderate-certainty evidence). This result was confirmed in a trial sequential analysis using the same DerSimonian–Laird method that underpinned the unadjusted analysis. This was also robust against a trial sequential analysis using the Biggerstaff–Tweedie method. Low-certainty evidence found that ivermectin prophylaxis reduced COVID-19 infection by an average 86% (95% confidence interval 79%–91%). Secondary outcomes provided less certain evidence. Low-certainty evidence suggested that there may be no benefit with ivermectin for “need for mechanical ventilation,” whereas effect estimates for “improvement” and “deterioration” clearly favored ivermectin use. Severe adverse events were rare among treatment trials and evidence of no difference was assessed as low certainty. Evidence on other secondary outcomes was very low certainty.

Conclusions:

Moderate-certainty evidence finds that large reductions in COVID-19 deaths are possible using ivermectin. Using ivermectin early in the clinical course may reduce numbers progressing to severe disease. The apparent safety and low cost suggest that ivermectin is likely to have a significant impact on the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic globally."

"Three studies involving 738 participants evaluated ivermectin for COVID-19 prophylaxis among health care workers and COVID-19 contacts. Meta-analysis of these 3 trials, assessing 738 participants, found that ivermectin prophylaxis among health care workers and COVID-19 contacts probably reduces the risk of COVID-19 infection by an average of 86% (79%–91%) (3 trials, 738 participants; aRR 0.14, 95% CI 0.09–0.21; 5.0% vs. 29.6% contracted COVID-19, respectively"

My doctor and his team, and their colleagues, have concluded from both multiple study results and the results from their patients that a strict combination of therapeutics, including ivermectin, HCQ, hydrogen peroxide, and a vitamin regimen have shown demonstrable results both prophylactically, and after infection. They aren't advising for or against the vaccine, but rather prescribing what they believe to be enhanced treatment since the vaccine has proven over time to not prevent infection.

They aren't on the payroll of "Big Ivermectin", only prescribing what they believe to be the best course of prevention and treatment for their patients. YMMV.

And they were for years, even after those vaccines had proven extremely effective. Anti-vaccine denialism and fear mongering are nothing new. The sad thing is you will never hear a denialist admit he was wrong, even in the face of mountains of proof.

Matt

No problem, unless any of these potential side effects concern you, among others:

- Low Levels Of White Blood Cells - Increased Eosinophils In The Blood - Hemorrhage From The Conjunctiva Of The Eye - Low Blood Pressure - Worsening Asthma - Inflammation Of The Liver Called Hepatitis - A Skin Disorder With Blistering And Peeling Skin Called Toxic Epidermal Necrolysis - A Skin Disorder With Blistering And Peeling Skin Called Stevens-Johnson Syndrome - Seizures - High Amount Of Bilirubin In The Blood - Abnormal Liver Function Tests - Mazzotti Reaction, A Reaction Resulting From The Treatment Of A Parasite Infection

Matt

You know Az I was going to ignore your since-removed post as it had been dealt with rather well by Jason (BEG) but seeing as you insist on flouting your own hypocrisy I'll address the issue.

In the post of yours that was deservingly removed you implied I had an agenda and possibly a financial incentive; why then would I post supporting the use of HCQ when given early onset as this might preclude not only treatment but the severe symptoms of COVID-19? A rational person would immediately recognize this would be counter to the proposed self-interest but as you continue to demonstrate you are far from being a rational person.

A person who posts from an agenda driven basis by and large posts opinions or cites questionable sources; you've done both while I have consistently cited factual data and provided sources. Allow me to refresh your memory:

"I've posted 7 sources, some of which not only give breakdowns of vaccinated versus unvaccinated but also give increased risk based on vaccination status; review those numbers and if you feel you have a valid argument, by all means make one."

Your response? Complete avoidance of dealing with those facts when they are easily checked and character assassination.

Pot calling the kettle black? Laughable given you offer this as a testament to your own motivations ""My motivations are Christian in nature."

Your actions make a mockery of that statement; when specious arguments and outright falsehoods of yours are shown to be exactly that by factual arguments (along with supporting citations) you simply slink off for a day or 2 and then re-vomit the same falsehoods with perhaps a few more added for good measure.

Your seek to position your stance as being from the moral high ground yet act in an amoral if not immoral manner. You are in fact the worst type of hypocrite; the one who seeks to wrap themselves in a blanket of piety while being as far removed from a state of grace as one can be.

As bad as that affliction is it's made worse by your complete lack of self-awareness; anyone who acts as you have and has the audacity to position themselves as acting in a Christian manner is more than a few fries shy of a Happy Meal.

Again, look at every cited source I've posted and make a fact-based challenge if you feel anything is wrong. The only "agenda" I've ever had is to provide accurate information; sources are provided because trust has to be earned and to some here I'm simply a handle on a computer screen. I want doubters to fact-check me, I welcome it.

When you have something of value to offer on this subject by all means fire away. If it's just more of the same pablum you seem to think constitutes productive dialogue then kindly confine yourself to the sites that seem to embrace that close-minded approach.

You'll find many who post here have IQ's well north of Forrest Gump....

I believe every one of us has admitted the decision should be made by each individual, using a rational process. Some of us believe a rational process should be based on facts, facts such as peer reviewed data from scientific studies. Facts, nothing else.

I have asthma and Pulmonary Hypertension. I chose to get three shots. Now I'm covering my bases based upon recommendations from my doctor. Their patients have experienced none of the adverse effects you listed, because they aren't taking the supplements willy nilly. I have friends who have been taking veterinary-grade ivermectin as a prophylactic for almost two years. None have been vaccinated, none have contracted the virus, and none have had any adverse side effects.

since when does fauci approve drugs?

Resources need to be shifted to finding a better vaccine and better treatment.

Without the deer slaughter the death rate would have been even higher as more deer came in contact with CWD. Or not. :-)

Actually this statement is factually accurate. Case fatality rate (CFR) for COVID or for any disease for that matter is based on the number of confirmed cases divided into the number of confirmed deaths.

I believe it was late spring or so in 2020 when the CFR in the US hovered around 5.6%; as treatments improved (and in some cases it was avoiding certain things like ventilation of patients) the CFR came down appreciably but was still higher than where we are today at 1.5-1.6%.

We can certainly examine data for severe illness/hospitalization (ICU bed occupancy) and mortality and see that the range for those categories across the US is between 80-95% for unvaccinated individuals. Earlier in this thread I posted links to this data from 7 states so these statistics can be easily verified.

Given this it's hard to argue with Frank's statement; there's no shortage of data we can look at to see it's not a stretch by any means.

Yes, we can say that for the reasons I described above. While we saw a decrease in the CFR during the second half of 2020 it still remained between slightly less than half of today's CFR to slightly more.

Some of this we can ascribe to a better understanding of how to treat the disease and to an extent precautions put in place. I wouldn't put too much stock in "survival of the fittest" as we have a disease that still targets the same demographics and we haven't "weeded out" sufficient numbers in the vulnerability camp to account for the decrease in the CFR we see currently.

What I'm saying is we have empirical data we can review and across the 50 states it shows significantly higher mortality rates in the unvaccinated; by that metric alone the case is made for the vaccines preventing a higher number of deaths.

With respect the last sentence is pretty much a straw man argument as a)I've never claimed there would have been no decrease in the CFR absent a vaccine (and posted a decrease in my post above) and b)as we have moved to less virulent variants there would be a natural reduction in the CFR.

Link shows graphical depiction of countries (not just the US) death rates for vaccinated versus unvaccinated. Again, the evidence is plain for all to see.

again I point to a very controlled group - pro NBA/NFL players - almost 100% shots, and what, 20-25% infection rates ?

that's horrible - and considering the infection rates of the same group before they had their shots ? its not hard to see just how ineffective the shots are .... at least longterm

me? I never wanted one, and I won't get another or boosters (that's my opinion today) and if I had kids under 18 no WAY would I get them shots. That's just me - others I support if they choose to get shots and I'd ask they support me in return

No, viral loads in vaccinated individuals decline more rapidly than in non-vaccinated individuals. One can look up several studies that point out this fact; so vaccination is providing a public health benefit.

Interestingly enough, natural immunity likewise provides a similar benefit though I seriously doubt you'd be arguing that naturally immune persons don't benefit the public health.

The quote that would probably best sum up this thread is "The facts are out there and they are readily obtainable. As vaccination should be a personal choice so is a search for the facts. As is the case with vaccination it appears there is a sizable population that exercises the personal choice not to search for the facts."

https://news.arizona.edu/story/covid-19-vaccine-reduces-severity-length-viral-load-those-who-still-get-infected

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/

https://www.boston.com/news/coronavirus/2021/12/02/harvard-study-covid-vaccinated-infectious-period/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-crucial-vaccine-benefit-were-not-talking-about-enough1/

Looks like I am due even more respect from you now;-)

Orion,

I respect everyone’s right to make their own decision on this. Same position I have held pre and post Trump. (Will say it again…loved 95 percent plus of his administration’s policies, did not and still do not respect him enough to listen to any advice he might throw our way.)

I will stay with “it’s your choice” right up to, and if, we have solid incontrovertible evidence the vaccines are a net plus to society and far outweigh the externalities they may create. Then I would support mandates, same position I have held on polio, smallpox etc.

I wonder how many of you have changed positions with this vaccination because of politics.

So, why don't you tell us? Mike's credentials and background are well documented on this and other threads. And he's been very kind to share with us what he knows about this topic, which is far more than any of us will ever know, BTW.

Matt

I posted a response based on what you posted; if you feel it was condescending one of two factors are in play; either 1)you are overly sensitive (an all-too common occurrence in the age of participation trophies) or 2)you feel what you post, however inaccurate should somehow be exempt from criticism.

For an example, you again point to the NBA players "infection rate"; if you understood infection simply means detectable levels of a pathogen and does not equal presentation of symptoms you wouldn't be placing the emphasis on it that you are. Additionally, as the vaccine was not designed to prevent infection and in healthy, immunocompetent populations presents as largely asymptomatic or only mildly symptomatic you're making much ado about nothing.

You're right that I don't know you but I do know when I see an uninformed opinion posted that only showcases a fundamental lack of understanding on the disease and the efficacy of the vaccines. And by the way, you managed to avoid discussing the >65 year old demographic where I posted information clearly showing the vaccines effectiveness.

As I've posted close to dozens of links to the kind of information you'd benefit from you'll have to pardon me if I'm not inclined to soothe your feelings over a post rife with misconceptions and errors.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/aaron-rodgers-shares-what-he-s-hearing-about-nfl-teams/ar-AASdEm8?ocid=entnewsntp

Matt

If my doctor believes it would help I would not be saying no.

Question for you Vaxers? If your sick in the hospital and your doctor hands you Ivermectin are you gonna say no?

I think the vaccine is one of the greatest medical breakthroughs of our time. From the day they started developing and testing them (while Trump was in office) it provided the biggest hope for putting this pandemic behind us. Now that it is here, I still believe it still is the most effective tool we have in fighting this disease. These feelings have absolutely nothing to do with the political party in power or the political rhetoric surrounding the vaccine - they have to do with the mounds of scientific data available to us, from the clinical trials to the data we continue to collect on cases, hospitalizations, and deaths.

No it hasn’t been “dismissed.” For one, as the virus mutates and as immunity wanes over time we can expect more breakthrough infections. Furthermore, go read Mike’s comments and articles about viral loads and the length of infection. The vaccine does not prevent every instance of COVID, but the data has continually shown that it does reduce the risk of infection, transmission, and (most importantly) serious illness and death.

The vaccine was actually designed to prevent serious illness and lower mortality; the CDC document you quote states what was found during clinical trials. Pfizer/BioNTech designed the vaccine to elicit the production of IgG antibodies, antibodies that target the spike protein of the SARS-CoV-2 virus and this occurs when intact virus exits receptor cells after they've multiplied.

What was unexpected was the vaccine stimulating the production of IgA antibodies that directly attack the invading virus; this was why clinical trial data showed the efficacy you cite against infection. As Jason (BEG) pointed out as we've gone from the original strain to variants that initial protection from infection has lowered but we've maintained good protection against serious illness and mortality (as demonstrated by the links I've provided from the 7 states data).

Dana,

Thanks for confirming my initial suspicion of Az's latest "source". For those who are interested hospitals are not paid "bonuses" as listed in the meme of monumental misinformation.

For inpatient billing hospitals use ICD-9 or ICD-10 coding and this is based on the discharge diagnosis. As costs increase depending on the severity of a patients illness reimbursement to the hospital increases. Obviously, the costs of treating a COVID-19 patient are significantly higher than treating a patient who does not require a bed in an ICU, continuous IV drug infusion, round the clock critical care nurses and mechanical ventilation.

Don't mind Az and his ignorance of the real medical world; he's evidently still in the process of fine-tuning his "christian motivations."

Why don't you go back to getting as many viruses as you can and continue to build your immunity to protect you from Covid and get off Bowsite. Unfortunately I've been to a couple friend's funerals that had the same attitude and disregard you have.

Matt

The only thing you've posted on this thread and the only contribution you've added is to cancel someone you dont agree with?!

In all my time on Bowsite I've never seen so many calls to shut down, or ban other members because someone doesn't agree with them. Not to mention certain people telling others to STFU because they think they know what they're talking about. If ya dont like it, dont click on it. Take your censorship and claims of misinformation and stuff it! I guess the word 'debate' is no longer part of our language. We may as well go back to religious themed threads. Nobody's mind was changed in any of those either.

I'd be willing to bet that out of all the posts in this thread, Mike in CT is likely the ONLY guy here with any credible input. Lol!

Maybe a few here want some to just go away, but most appear not to be debating the science, but rather debating how to debate.

At least in my HS, we would not have been allowed to use questionable sources for support of our position. That would have been ridiculed as a juvenile approach and one’s credibility would have been irretrievably damaged.

Here on BS it is glorified, and by the same people who place emotionalism above science.

I better add, IMHO of course, so as not to offend the folks who do not find it offensive to regurgitate the same garbage that has been disproven.

brilliantly worded - really nice man, truly

with that one sentence you basically say I am incapable of basic understanding and have zero information to support how I view things and also implying you are far superior - really well worded, I'm going to have to remember how you played that.

maybe you're right, maybe I'm just an ignorant hillbilly from Arkansas who doesn't know much about anything ... but way too often people who think they know much more than everyone else really don't at all

I support people getting as many shots as they want - I'd ask they support others who don't. The bullying, threats, coercion, manipulation and shaming .... all of that isn't justified it just isn't

Maybe I woke up on the wrong side of the bed today…

But you seem to be playing victim…the dumbass hillbilly who is being vilified for their choice. I guess I’m the dumb one because the folks I see stating the strongest support about the vaccines working, have also said it is your choice, including me.

What I see more of is a group who embraces pseudo-science and coconut salesmen getting angry because everyone else doesn’t embrace their mostly discredited nonsense.

Oh please, spare me the passive aggressive nonsense! That isn't what I said at all; I was referring to the subject being discussed and you've displayed a lack of basic understanding in multiple posts. By the way, you may notice many here have done more than weigh in with opinions, however well-informed they might be; they've posted links to sources that substantiate what they've offered.

An example of your lack of understanding was your questioning data on the vaccines effectiveness in the >65 year old demographic; I've posted a source showing it has been very effective and I notice you've still not acknowledged that.

You post a statistic on infection rates in the NBA as proof the vaccines aren't working and again, your lack of understanding is apparent; infection does not equal disease, certainly not in that age demographic as mountains of statistical evidence attests to.

Pointing out someone is presenting a flawed argument doesn't rise to the level of condescension; that reaction simply points to being a bit too thin-skinned and your last post and the pity party nonsense only confirms that impression.

Maybe at times I can be a bit short; perhaps that comes as a result of seeing up close and personal the impact of this pandemic for nearly 2 years and continuing to see needless severe illnesses and deaths, at least in part because of a sea of misinformation that some seem more enamored of echoing and amplifying than testing to see how much of it is real and how much should be called out.

"The bullying, threats, coercion, manipulation and shaming .... all of that isn't justified it just isn't."

Absolutely correct; from day 1 as many following this thread can attest I have been against a mandate for vaccination. I've posted quite a number of times that this should always be a personal choice made by the individual with full possession of all the facts they can gather and with input from a trusted physician.

70lbdraw- I'm assuming you don't frequent the CO forum where we have AZ spewing garbage and misinformation about what's best for the residents of CO? But he's an expert on CO elk hunting in case you ever need some advice.

Now I've posted 2 things on this thread.

when someone tells you that you're simply misinformed and don't have the fundamental ability to see what they see ..... yeah, I know what that means. I am a victim in a way, I was forced to take a shot I didn't want, a shot that made me very sick for 72 hours, a shot that someone decided I needed even though my immune system has worked so well that for 18 months in the worst pandemic of our lifetime I managed to be out and about and around everyone including covid positive people and never got sick. Huh ... imagine that? for what we were told was exceptionally contagious and fast moving still 280 million American's have not gotten covid - but someone out there way way smarter than me thinks I need a shot

Mike in CT - I'm responding to how your words read - maybe you didn't mean them to read like that I dunno.

I know this - my age, health, history of being sick, condition .... I am 99.9% not going to get covid bad. I don't need the shot, don't want it, was forced to get it because of Biden mandates and didn't want it. I can feel a bit pissed about that, yes

These sorts of questions both intrigue and worry me. I guess there are two camps: people who can separate the science from the politics and those who can't. From my perspective, the party affiliation of the sitting president should have nothing - 0% - to do with an individual's personal healthcare decisions as it has no bearing whatsoever on the effectiveness or safety of the COVID vaccines. My process was to read as much as possible about the effectiveness of the vaccines and their side effects and make an informed decision with consideration for my own personal health and to some degree those around me.

I simply cannot wrap my brain around that one would take politics into account when making the personal healthcare decision, but reading this thread it appears that is the primary basis on which some make such decisions. That is baffling.

The CDC has withdrawn the use of the PCR tests because; their words; it cant differentiate between the rona, flu or the common cold virus.

This is a gross misrepresentation of the CDC recommendation. Of course the original PCR tests could not distinguish between COVID, the flu, the cold, etc because they were only designed to test for COVID. It didn’t mean they weren’t accurate for COVID. The CDC now recommends different PCR tests that can test for more than one illness.

Vaccines are meant to cure and eradicate. These experimental concoctions do neither. Thus they aren't vaccines at all but mere therapuetics, possibly.

Vaccines are meant to trigger an immune response. That is precisely what these new vaccines - and they are vaccines - do.

I know of no way to honestly make the claim that they are "lessening the severity" of the rona to be proven.

This has been proven through multiple clinical trials and through the ongoing collection of case data. One needs only look at the current hospitalizations and what group (hint, it’s still overwhelmingly the unvaccinated even though the majority of this country is vaccinated) make up the bulk of these cases.

The only way to bring this insanity to an end is to stop being tested for it.

What other problems in this country can we solve by simply turning a blind eye towards it? Poverty? Immigration? Crime? Who knew that all we had to do was stop looking for these things and they’d go away!

In case you haven’t figured it out, that was sarcasm. Saying all we have to do to stop the pandemic is stop testing for the disease is the height of stupidity.

This is another straw man argument from the master of misinformation. The FDA has been using user fee payments for 30 years. And now it's totally explains "this fiasco." A "fiasco" created by misinformation and falsehoods you post continuously.

"Brandon has publicly admitted that there is no Federal Govt cure to beat the rona. IE he flew to high and has had his wings burned off. That was his main campaign promise too. 'I'm going to beat the virus" he crowed proudly."

This sums up YOUR politicization of this public health issue. You see...it is you and others like you that politicize a freaking public health issue that takes a collective effort of all Americans (left/right, young/old, healthy/unhealthy, male/female, rich/poor) to minimize and mitigate. If we, majority of Americans, would get the vaccine we could be much further down the road to normalcy. But no no no...I seen this meme on FB created by someone I don't know and it has all the answers.

"The CDC has withdrawn the use of the PCR tests because; their words; it cant differentiate between the rona, flu or the common cold virus. Its all over."

Again, this is complete social media meme hogwash. The CDC withdrew the PCR test as there are many on the market. Please post any credible source that has a quote from the CDC that their PCR test could not distinguish between Covid and the flu. Better yet post a peer-reviewed study that backs up your claim. I dare you. My source is linked.

"The emperor has no clothes."

Do you even have a clue as to what this idiom even means.

"PS. I would like to thank everyone of you who have come to my defense in this recent banishment at the behest of an interested party."

Spoken like a true mindless follower. To scared to stand alone. Mr. lemming meet Mr. lemming...

"I am aware that my approach may put some off and of course people don't like to be challenged sometimes. But it must be done if the truth will out."

You have yet to challenge one rebuttal to your misinformation BS. A straw man reply is not a challenge. It is a deflection. But you are right, the truth will win the day regardless of you doing everything counter to it.

"This is a life and death issue facing the entire world and no topic is presently more important to it."

Oh, the hyperbole. No doubt life will go on for most of us but not all.

"Vaccines are meant to cure and eradicate. These experimental concoctions do neither."

Mike in CT has posted many credible links that show the vaccines do in fact reduce hospitalizations and death. That is an undeniable fact. No matter what you post or spew will never change that.

"Thus they aren't vaccines at all but mere therapuetics, possibly."

Vaccine- a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.

Just more of your misinformation BS.

"I know of no way to honestly make the claim that they are "lessening the severity" of the rona to be proven."

This is where you really show your lack of knowledge regarding math and science. This is easily proven through the scientific method. You know the method that got us to space, developed modern medicine, etc.. Ever heard of a "control group."

"What is known is that your chances of dying from it are still at 0.067% worldwide. Pandemic?"

This is truly your MO. Just repeat the same old misinformation crap.

"Not by any stretch of the imagination."

A good imagination is about all you got. And boy do you stretch it. Ever wonder why people get quiet when you walk in a room?

"The only way to bring this insanity to an end is to stop being tested for it."

The epidemy of stupidity and who you are. Let's just ignore it and it will go away. I can't believe a functional adult thinks this is a viable option. On a virus that kills 1.6% of the people who get it. That about sums you up.

There is a big difference between be skeptical and debating opinions and pushing misinformation. One works on the foundation of established facts and the other thinks the world is flat because they have seen how flat it really is from the beach.

Matt

Lol! They said the same thing about global warming. Only America can stop the world from ending!!!

That rates right up there with; “Talk to your doctor and make an informed decision for yourself.”

Bulls**t! They’ve been pushing that misinformation for 2 years now as well!

If you had the burning desire for truth you like to claim here you'd never have posted that as it's demonstrably false.

But hey, at least you've been consistent (consistently wrong).

The vaccines do not weaken the immune system and there have been multiple studies showing a robust stimulation of cell-mediated immunity (CMI). Other studies have also shown benefits to persons who have been infected and recovered as well.

Here's a tidbit for your edification from the link "These findings demonstrate multicomponent immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccination, with memory B and T cell responses remaining durable even as antibodies decline."

"Now Politics is a subject I just happen to know a great deal about. "

Reading these comments back-to-back made me laugh a little.

But it must be the vaccine….