Wy corner crossing round 2
Elk
https://wyofile.com/hunters-face-new-corner-crossing-trespass-charges/
The carbon County judge and DA should be sent packing for this crap.
"The carbon County judge and DA should be sent packing for this crap."
Why would they be sent packing and who would send them? They are doing the bidding of the conservatives in Carbon County who elected them, especially their largest tax payers. Doesn't make it right, those are just the facts.
Brotsky, way to throw politics into this. More likely, the "rich" landowners of Wyoming are elite, wealthy, nonresidents (ie. Ted Turner's of the world. ) They are probably the ones backing the corrupt judges and DAs. Just a guess, but if we are slinging BS around...
What I don’t understand is the civil case. What damages are they claiming? They can’t show any actual damage to their property. Are they saying it diminishes the hunting done on public property that until they corner crossed the landowner only had access to hunt?
Just checked, made his fortune in big pharma and lives on the east coast.
I'm all for prosecuting criminals, but IMHO this should fall under the DOUBLE JEAPARDY rule and should be thrown out! How can you be prosecuted for doing something in 2020 that was ruled LEGAL by a courtcase when you did it in 2021???!!! What is the prosecution going to do.....................................go back every year and start another court case until they win?! THey should not be allowed to do that! : (
Rut Nut, they can keep bringing these cases because there is no clear LAW that says this is legal or illegal. Technically it's a separate offense in the 2020 charges. Kind of like getting pulled over for speeding twice, you beat the first one is doesn't mean you get off on the second one automatically. Until the representatives of the state of WY make a law that specifically addresses this situation one way or another we can continue to be prosecuted for it. While winning the first court case was great, it technically did nothing for our ability to corner cross legally in WY, it just means they got away with it in this case.
Smurph, I didn't bring politics into it, they were already here. This is 100% a political issue. It can only be solved by WY politicians clarifying WY law to make corner crossing legal or illegal. Otherwise overzealous state's attorneys can keep bringing these cases forward, eventually they might win a couple, or maybe not. Bottom line is not everyone has the deep pockets to fight the charges brought forward so they are making corner crossing de facto illegal by bringing the cases. Which is exactly what the landowners and largest tax payers of Carbon County want.
Rut,
It's not double jeopardy. Double jeopardy is being tried for the same case after being found not guilty. And like Brot said, until statute is ruled unconstituional, clarified, or whatever, additional cases can be tried.
You can't be prosecuted for something today that is now illegal you did yesterday that was legal. The U.S. Constitution defines that. Maybe they don't teach law at WY law school, who knows...
From the article
“According to two sources who either witnessed the serving or heard it described to the judge, the deputy handed the summons to the defendants in front of most of the 58-member jury pool while the defense attorneys, prosecutors and the judge were in a conference in a separate room.”
Pretty shady to do this in front of the jury pool. I am curious to think what the defendants attorneys have to say about this.
If they go to trial there will be a new jury. I am curious if the outcome will be the same.
Brotsky, thanks for the clarity. So if these guys show up next year to hunt, will they potentially be charged again for the same thing? Like a ground hog day nightmare.
Exactly smurph, it is a nightmare. Contrary to what HDE mentioned above, they do apparently teach law in Wyoming. Because the prosecutor is using it to their advantage to suck these guys dry and to discourage anyone else from wanting to go down the same path without needing the legislature to actually do anything to solve the problem. The judge can dismiss the charges with prejudice against the prosecutor, which would be the best outcome frankly. That would discourage further prosecution from happening until there is a statute change of some type
Even if the WY legislature passes some law defining corner crossing and allowing it, this won't be truly settled until it either is ruled on by the USSC or they decline to hear an appeal from a lower court. This is because the precedent and raison d'etre is based on the USSC Causby ruling, which the jury chose to ignore. Maybe it applies, maybe not. The legislature would have to do some fancy tap dancing to define a law that conflicts with that. Given the conservative makeup of the WY legislature, that might be a reach.
Sounds like the DA may have screwed up by introducing the Causby factor just before deliberations rather than basing the case around it. But none of us were there so we really don't know what happened in that courtroom.
Maybe the BLM can make the checkerboard land no tresspassing and then the private guys can be arrested for corner crossing.
A judges job is not to do the bidding of his constituents but to interpret and follow the letter of the law
I would be fine if Federally owned landlocked land is off limits to all hunting, including adjacent private land owners. Animals need safe space too.
Lou, I think the defense in this case could have successfully argued against the Causby precedent as transit through the landowner's corner did not represent a "taking" of any use or enjoyment of the landowner's property in any material way. This whole thing is a sticky wicket. I do think ultimately that the best case scenario would be a guilty verdict and an appeal that reaches the USSC for a final ruling. I highly doubt we will ever see that unfortunately and frankly I don't think we want the current court to consider this case.
Checkerboard lands have always been bull chit IMO. There was no sane reason for it to be that way from the start, but private landowners love it because they get to use the land like it was theirs and the public is told to take a hike. I’m done hunting Wyoming but for the sake of the younger guys I hope there is a fair resolution to this, not only in Wyoming, but in all the western states where it exists.
OK Brotsky- I see your point. I guess it’s up to the judge to dismiss the charges with prejudice against the prosecutor......................IMHO that is exactly what should happen!
Drycreek, actually there were a lot of reasons in the beginning.. The checkerboards came about as a public-private partnership to build the railroads. Nobody ever envisioned hunting access as a barrier back then, and let's face it, the ONLY people who care about this issue are hunters.
BLM land was mostly the crappy land nobody wanted to own or develop, generally wasn't high quality grazing land, but somebody had to manage it so Department of the Interior took responsibility. Again, nobody took hunting access into account back then.
Before western big game hunting became a big money game, it was no big deal. Ask, and we generally got permission. But the monster of commercialization, coupled with shrinking public access to private land, made this issue into an "issue". Only a very, very tiny proportion of the U.S. population, and frankly, only a small proportion of hunters, is wrapped around the axles over this. Social media has made it appear to be something larger that it truly is.
If anything, nonhunters, hikers and star gazers need to get on board with this. More the better.
Lou, I know the reason that it wound up this way, but the reasoning boils down to greed, even in the beginning. The government could have given the same amount of land, minus the checkerboarding and accomplished the populating of the west just as well IMO. As Ronald Reagan said, the most feared words in the English language are “I’m from the government and I’m here to help you. “
Sure, but back then checkerboarding didnt matter. BHA didn't exist, and pretty much everyone could hunt wherever they wanted. This is really only a recent "hunting" issue.
Must not be much real crime in Carbon County. This prosecutor needs to look busy in an election year. She probably leads the nation in jury trials for trespassing.
I can see her campaign slogans:
Toe the Line (But don't cross it) or Pay the Fine or Do the Time.
Ashley Mayfield Davis-Tough on Crime and Protector of the King's Elk
Rich guys own most of the big ranches. Rich guys benefit from the existing rules. Rich guys make the rules. Rich guys have their minions enforce the rules. See a pattern here??
End of story
He who has the gold makes the golden rule
Maybe then it is better for hunters to be " rich ."
Isn't it better for everyone to be rich? Certainly better than everyone being poor which is where we seem to be headed!
That is what voters wanted, including some on this forum.
“Violating the airspace” What a joke! So if I had a helicopter I couldn’t land on a public parcel because I flew over your private one? Corner crossing should not be illegal, period. These rich guys are gaming the system by buying up these checkerboard parcels and now they cry foul when somebody else wants to game the system that they are already gaming?
As far as making landlocked ground off limits to everyone, who would police this? The already stretched thin and overworked COs? Maybe the rich landowners will police themselves? Ot maybe the outfitter will turn himself in? Or the clients who don't have a clue where they are will back out of said spot because they already know the rules! That's the ticket! Problem solved!
That's my attempt at humor but seriously I don't see that plan working.
I guess perhaps there are more hunters who break the rules than I thought. Does not say much for hunters.
Missouribreaks, to what are you referring to?
I don’t begrudge anyone for being rich. Actually, more power to ‘em! But the rich are notorious for “taking advantage” of the system. Again, nothing wrong with that. (As long as no laws are broken)
Where I have a problem, is when the rich(or anyone for that matter) get GREEDY! IMHO, rich land owners that use corner crossing laws to prevent the public from using these landlocked (public) land for their own private use, is the definition of greed!
I hunted a section of State Forest land a few times that bordered a large private hunting club. The members were not satisfied with hunting on their own land, they would walk out onto the public land and do drives and try to push the deer and bear back towards their land where the standers were posted. Not illegal, but pretty greedy in my opinion! : (
I agree Rut Nut, or the rancher who tries to push elk onto his land while "moving cattle".
I heard that every tag that is given to a nonresident through the draw , a landowner gets a tag .I’m not sure how that works if true .
Agree rut nut.
Old Bow, I am not sure how that would work either. Seems like there would be a whole lot of tags and a poor way to manage wildlife....?
“I heard that every tag that is given to a nonresident through the draw , a landowner gets a tag .I’m not sure how that works if true .“
Who ever told you that is talking out their butt.
This thread gets better, and better.
I see both sides of this, living in corner crossing checkerboard country. I have mixed feelings. But take a step back.
From Merriam Webster. Definition of greed : a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (such as money) than is needed.
With several hundred million acres of accessible National Forest (except Wyoming wilderness..) BLM, state land, wildlife refuges, and walk-in land to hunt, could this definition also apply to hunters??
Buying up checkerboard pattern land is just maximizing what you can do within the rules. So then is corner crossing. Both sides should live with it
I wonder if the landowner is shooting himself in the foot. The defendants were already acquitted on related charges. If they are acquitted again, I would expect to see others challenge the landowners claims going forward. An interesting precedent.....
"With several hundred million acres of accessible National Forest (except Wyoming wilderness..) BLM, state land, wildlife refuges, and walk-in land to hunt, could this definition also apply to hunters??"
Of course not. Using elk as an example, not all public land has elk. The strategy or objective for most is to find where the elk are, and not to simply hunt for elk on land that is accessible. You knew that though.
The grass is always greener across the corner.
Charges are asked to be dismissed
See link
They had pretty decent luck in the spot they hunted. I wonder if they do will do it again?
" The strategy or objective for most is to find where the elk are". Of course I know that. I also know that the reason the hunting is so good on Elk Mountain Ranch, and demands a premium price, is because of extremely limited entry. I hunted CO unit 2 public land a few years ago where there were 7 archery tags. It was great. But if it was OTC, well, not so much.
It will be interesting to see how good the hunting will be on that part of the ranch in the future, after the invasion of the Sitka Army doing battle with the Kuiu Warriors. Right now there are thousands of potential corner-hoppers building ladders and studying the maps to find that corner. And EMR may be constructing a 20 foot high "fence" at that corner. No law prevents the landowner from doing that.
This coming season may be very telling, depending upon the outcome of the civil suit, and the next steps of the landowner. And I suspect landowners elsewhere in Carbon County with checkerboard are likewise scheming.
This is the checker board area in question
A creative fabricating guy (Brad..) might make some money designing and marketing super-light packable "corner crossing" ladders. Make it modular and fit into it's own pack frame. Hmmmm..
Electric pogo stick. All the advantages of an ebike but also jumps corners!
Wow- common sense actually won out...................(dismissal)
We can allow illegals , drug dealers and known criminals to cross our Borders and receive money but yet won’t allow tax paying American citizens to use public land , just BS
I wonder if the enclosures act can keep him from building that fence at the corners, it would prohibit entry onto public lands if he does and may be illegal.
Organize and fund a state program to gain access by eminent domain at corners and connect the corners by trails through the best hunting BLM land. Owners should be paid a pro rata amount for the square footage of the corner taken comparable to the square footage for the entire property. In some areas this could also include roads through BLM to other areas areas of BLM with trails. Lots of ways to do it.
Frankly, I'm not sure why the concept of an easement for all access across all corners is not a thing. A landowner should be able to cross corners to his own land on the other side regardless of ownership of the other diagonal lots. If it must be fenced then it must be gated, etc. Otherwise, don't build your fence to the corner cutting off access. Impeding access where corners touch should be illegal, not the other way around. Fast forward to public land corners...what's good for the goose...
A private landowner in no way should profit off public land they are restricting without a legal contract with the state such as grazing.
Technically they can't profit off of the land without a permit. What they can profit off of is the access to reach the land and their increased land value by having exclusive access to the public they block.
If an outfitter guides the ranch and the public behind the ranch, they need a use permit for the public.
Personally I think we should flood this particular area next elk season with hunters. Just to send the message to the rich land owner that the rest of us don't take kindly to him thinking he owns the public land!
Personally I think we should flood this particular area next elk season with hunters. Just to send the message to rich land owner that the rest of us don't take kindly to him thinking he owns the public land!
Why wait til elk season? It’s public land. Go enjoy it.
There were leftover tags. If I didn’t draw a mule deer tag I would have applied for a leftover there. It’s on my list of things to do i the next few years. Elk mountain road is the county road that will get you into the corner locations.
Hello, I am a property owner in Carbon County, WY and the whole corner crossing thing is a true afront on property owner rights. I will explain where I am coming from after I introduce myself.
I am an 80% disabled Veteran of the U.S. Army. I have owned an 80 acre piece of property in Carbon County for the last 9 years. I am also a hunter. I have also been unable to get an Antelope tag for the entire time I've owned this property. It has been a constant drag of folks completely disrespecting private property. I consistently find shell casings, peoples garbage (like whole kitchen suits from the 70s) dumped on my property which costs me money to get rid of. People tear down my No Trespassing signs and just treat it like it's BLM land. The problem isn't really corner crossing per-se. The corner crossing argument is just their defense of their intent to trespass to begin with. All folks need to do is ASK, be respectful not rut out roads when its mud season and treat the land with respect and most property owners would be fine with giving access permission with some instructions on where to go or not on their PRIVATE property. I am not a rich person. I am a regular guy that has become sick and tired of dealing with property damage. I have had my trailer vandalized, fences cut and everything else under the sun. I spent my own money on my property and I guarantee you the four guys from Missouri would NEVER tolerate that crap on their property. If folks coming from out of state have the money to pay for the non-resident tags to hunt out here then they should at least do some due diligence to speak to property owners who would likely offer fair access that respects their property. The truth is that they don't give a crap and act like they own the place. They'll chase that Antelope right across property lines and tell the game warden otherwise. Here's a quest: All four guys were from Missouri right? Where was their guide? In Wyoming if you are from out of state you need guide with you at all times to hunt as a non-resident. This isn't a money making scheme. There is a FREE resident guide license available for the asking. It is there so that the out of state folks that hunt here know the ropes as they hunt out here. It's checkerboard land sure. The BLM owns every other section in those areas. For those who don't know, a section is a square mile. There are LEGAL and ETHICAL ways to access each and every BLM square out here. There are existing easements on sections and centerlines out here that a 'Resident Guide' would know and be able to share with any non-resident hunters. Hunting isn't cheap and if you are traveling from cross-country to hunt here then take the time to do some homework! Use the Wyoming Parcel Viewer to locate property owners for permission. Don't leave garbage on private property. Don't ruin the trails that you can drive on out here because they are wet. To hunt on private property in Wyoming you need to have your license SIGNED by the PROPERTY OWNER. Who knows, you might make some friends for life and open doors for the future instead of screaming about lake of access. It's not lack of access. It's lack of respect for private property. I included a link the the Wyoming Parcel Viewer in this post.
John in WY you don't need a guide unless you are hunting wilderness. That was not the case for the guys from MO. Also there is a big difference between crossing from corner to corner when two of the corners are public land, than loser going on to your 80 acres and then on top of that tearing things up. Which I would be beyond pissed if I was in your shoes.
What is the “legal and ethical” way to access every BLM square out there? I’ve personally seen a landowner post a strip of BLM and threaten anyone who trespassed. It was clearly BLM, about 150 yards wide and a half mile long. My buddy who does work for BLM and lives in Hanna pointed it out to me.
Pretty good spot for antelope.
I sympathize with John. I live in a rural area and have about one mattress per month dumped on the roadside or on private land. Not for one second do I think a non-resident hunter hauled that mattress here to dump on my road and I doubt it was a non-resident hunter who hauled a "kitchen suit from the 70's" to dump on John's land.
The hunting world is filled with douche bags and I would bet more bad behavior regarding vandalism and trash is due to residents regardless of the state. Two years ago I found an antelope gut pile, rubber gloves, bloody paper towels and six beer cans on the side of a state road in Wyoming. That said, none of this has anything to do with corner crossing and especially the Elk Mountain case.
John non resident hunters didn't dump their kitchen suit or their mattress on you and they don't have the time or the desire to vandalize your property. You're full of information but alot of it is incorrect as John stated. I hate that you're having problems with some local thugs most likely.
"There are LEGAL and ETHICAL ways to access each and every BLM square out here. "
This is patently false! John there are literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of acres of unaccessable public land. A guys foot going over your land not even touching it is trampling your rights as a property owner? What a joke. Why do people expect the rights of a property owner on land they don't own?
John, the Missouri hunters didn't do any of the things you objected to. It was proven in court that they caused no damage to any private property and, in fact, never touched a single grain of the property owners soil. So are you just ill-informed or do you have some other problem with them that you don't want to address straight up?
I work in agriculture and deal with stuff dumped on the roadside on properties all the time. It's no excuse but a pickup load is $160.00 at the nearest landfill and a big list of restricted materials. It's no surprise stuff getting dumped on back roads around here has increased a lot.
John your write up has NOTHING to do with corner crossing, just assholes who trespass, night and day
Non residents in WY also do NOT need a guide outside wilderness areas
PushCoArcher and John: Onx has documented 9.5 MILLION acres of public land in the United States that we are locked out of due to private property borders and inability to corner cross.
Basically, locked up due to access issues... well, access issues to the "common citizen". It seems ranchers have free reign of adjoining public parcels. ??
I own property in OH and I have the same problems as John from WY. However, I do not look at this as a resident vs NR issue. As so aptly point out by others, NRs are not going to be hauling their garbage in to dump on private land. Regarding the corner jumping, there are a lot more resident hunters than NR that will benefit from access to more public land in WY. Being able to access at corners will benefit all DIY hunters.
John pronghorn licenses are a draw for all, even LOs that meet requirements for LO licenses, you do not have enough land to guarantee you a tag. You have to draw just like the rest of us. Apply for another area with better draw odds. And yes, lots of not so true statements in your comment, glad folks called you out on those.
As far as the issue you are having, I do sympathize with you. Sounds like you have property close to Rawlins maybe? Take your issues up with the county or city and make enough noise to get some results.
Bowsite Guy laid it out on 3/25. Go back and read it. It's the answer to ALL of this. Period.
Bowsite Guy laid it out on 3/25. Go back and read it. It's the answer to ALL of this. Period.
This thread started on 04/05
What I'd like to know is has all of this been worth it to the corner crossers? Have they filled tags on the public land they corner-hopped to?
Matt
They killed 3 elk in 2020 and 2 elk and a deer in 2021. No idea if they feel it was worth it.
More than just the Missouri guys have killed nice bulls behind that corner
“ It has been a constant drag of folks completely disrespecting private property. I consistently find shell casings, peoples garbage (like whole kitchen suits from the 70s) dumped on my property which costs me money to get rid of”
As many have said, you issues have nothing to do with corner crossing. You are discussing actual trespassers. You need some trail cameras and try and prosecute trespassers. You will win that case
So just FYI, here in Fremont County we have a completely free dump on the reservation, and virtually anything can go there as no one is even there to check. Yet we have piles of trash all over private and public lands that get dumped.
The point is this, slob aholes will be slob aholes….
Our local county dunp allows yard clippings and Easter. Trees up to 8” diameter all dumped for free. Yet people still just dump them on the road side etc.
As mentioned none of this is related to corner crossing at all. But it proves that this sort of thing will happen no matter what…
Yep WYOelker, our transfer station is ~$5/truckload, yet people will drive way out in the sticks to dump their mattress or couch. Idiots spend more $ in gas and effort than just taking to the transfer station.
