Moultrie Products
Ripped off by Gary and Sue
Bears
Contributors to this thread:
Hosed by WCO 19-Jul-22
Hosed by WCO 19-Jul-22
llamapacker 19-Jul-22
DanaC 19-Jul-22
JohnMC 19-Jul-22
Matt 19-Jul-22
SBH 19-Jul-22
bigswivle 19-Jul-22
Hosed by WCO 19-Jul-22
Hosed by WCO 19-Jul-22
Norseman 19-Jul-22
Hosed by WCO 19-Jul-22
Hosed by WCO 19-Jul-22
Hosed by WCO 19-Jul-22
Hosed by WCO 19-Jul-22
Bou'bound 19-Jul-22
JohnMC 19-Jul-22
Jim McNamara 19-Jul-22
Grey Ghost 19-Jul-22
butcherboy 19-Jul-22
DanaC 19-Jul-22
Slate 19-Jul-22
HDE 19-Jul-22
drycreek 19-Jul-22
Pete-pec 19-Jul-22
Shug 19-Jul-22
midwest 19-Jul-22
Thornton 19-Jul-22
Bowfinatic 19-Jul-22
[email protected] 19-Jul-22
'Ike' (Phone) 19-Jul-22
drycreek 19-Jul-22
MA-PAdeerslayer 19-Jul-22
JTreeman 19-Jul-22
Dale06 19-Jul-22
Matt 19-Jul-22
t-roy 19-Jul-22
Bou'bound 20-Jul-22
fuzzy 20-Jul-22
Nomad @ work 20-Jul-22
Jethro 20-Jul-22
Bou'bound 20-Jul-22
Rut Nut 20-Jul-22
Rut Nut 20-Jul-22
APauls 20-Jul-22
LINK 20-Jul-22
JayZ 20-Jul-22
kscowboy 20-Jul-22
Mule Power 20-Jul-22
Starfire 20-Jul-22
Pat Lefemine 20-Jul-22
Brotsky 20-Jul-22
KHNC 20-Jul-22
Rut Nut 20-Jul-22
fuzzy 20-Jul-22
JL 20-Jul-22
grasshopper 20-Jul-22
Old School 20-Jul-22
JL 20-Jul-22
CTBobcat 20-Jul-22
Vaquero 45 20-Jul-22
Scoot 20-Jul-22
Quinn @work 20-Jul-22
DanaC 20-Jul-22
GFL 20-Jul-22
Shiras42 20-Jul-22
Mule Power 20-Jul-22
JohnMC 20-Jul-22
Quinn @work 20-Jul-22
Rut Nut 20-Jul-22
nchunter 20-Jul-22
JohnMC 20-Jul-22
Michael 20-Jul-22
JL 20-Jul-22
TD 20-Jul-22
JakeBrake 20-Jul-22
Charlie Rehor 20-Jul-22
Lawdog 20-Jul-22
Shug 20-Jul-22
Bou'bound 20-Jul-22
scentman 20-Jul-22
Shug 20-Jul-22
deerhunter72 20-Jul-22
ND String Puller 20-Jul-22
Ollie 20-Jul-22
HDE 20-Jul-22
TreeWalker 20-Jul-22
Whatthefoc 21-Jul-22
Bou'bound 21-Jul-22
Mule Power 21-Jul-22
Rut Nut 21-Jul-22
Shug 21-Jul-22
Rick Wiltshire 21-Jul-22
fuzzy 21-Jul-22
SteveB 21-Jul-22
Bou'bound 21-Jul-22
Shug 21-Jul-22
JohnMC 21-Jul-22
Pat Lefemine 21-Jul-22
JohnMC 21-Jul-22
JL 21-Jul-22
Shug 21-Jul-22
Bou'bound 21-Jul-22
Rick Wiltshire 21-Jul-22
orionsbrother 21-Jul-22
APauls 21-Jul-22
JohnMC 21-Jul-22
deerhunter72 21-Jul-22
Bou'bound 21-Jul-22
goelk 21-Jul-22
t-roy 21-Jul-22
Tracker 21-Jul-22
blackbear62 21-Jul-22
JohnMC 21-Jul-22
Matte 21-Jul-22
EmbryOklahoma 21-Jul-22
Shug 21-Jul-22
JTreeman 21-Jul-22
Tracker 21-Jul-22
JohnMC 21-Jul-22
ryanrc 22-Jul-22
Bou'bound 22-Jul-22
Mule Power 22-Jul-22
Ratoney 22-Jul-22
Jarhead 22-Jul-22
RonP 22-Jul-22
Brotsky 22-Jul-22
Pop-r 22-Jul-22
Stix 22-Jul-22
TD 22-Jul-22
Highlife 22-Jul-22
Chuckster 22-Jul-22
Bearman 22-Jul-22
SaddleReaper 22-Jul-22
Matte 22-Jul-22
MA-PAdeerslayer 22-Jul-22
Chuckster 23-Jul-22
stealthycat 23-Jul-22
fuzzy 23-Jul-22
LBshooter 24-Jul-22
Yellowcat53 24-Jul-22
Ratoney 24-Jul-22
Corax_latrans 24-Jul-22
TD 25-Jul-22
SteveB 25-Jul-22
SteveB 25-Jul-22
Corax_latrans 25-Jul-22
Thornton 25-Jul-22
DanaC 26-Jul-22
x-man 26-Jul-22
Mule Power 26-Jul-22
Rocky D 26-Jul-22
Bou'bound 26-Jul-22
t-roy 26-Jul-22
Quinn @work 26-Jul-22
Quinn @work 26-Jul-22
JohnMC 26-Jul-22
Rut Nut 26-Jul-22
LBshooter 28-Jul-22
fuzzy 28-Jul-22
woodguy65 28-Jul-22
Bou'bound 28-Jul-22
Mule Power 28-Jul-22
Inshart 28-Jul-22
JohnMC 28-Jul-22
fuzzy 31-Jul-22
LBshooter 03-Aug-22
Bou'bound 03-Aug-22
Rut Nut 03-Aug-22
Jethro 03-Aug-22
APauls 03-Aug-22
From: Hosed by WCO
19-Jul-22
I sent a deposit for a fall hunt. My wife’s company sold a week later and they’re firing everyone. We’re moving 3,000 miles away and these slimeballs won’t refund my $2k. The AG will be calling soon. DO NOT do business with them.

From: Hosed by WCO
19-Jul-22
This post is about Gary and Sue Haight of Weitas Creek Outfitters in Kamia, Idaho. They will rip you off. DO NOT send them a deposit!!

From: llamapacker
19-Jul-22
Sounds like you have had some very unfortunate circumstances, and want to back out of the hunt. It appears that you may have sent the deposit only a couple weeks ago. It is likely the owners may have been willing to work with you after wanting to cancel so quickly, but it isn't the outfitter who is changing the deal. While the outfitter could probably do better (maybe postpone to next year, etc.??) it doesn't seem you have given them much of a chance. I think you would have been better served to try to work with them, rather than simply demanding your money back. I suspect it is an emotional time for you, but there are more productive ways to reach agreement than posting on this forum.

Bill

From: DanaC
19-Jul-22
Do they advertise that deposits are refundable, or non-refundable?

From: JohnMC
19-Jul-22
I don't think that they have any obligations to refund a deposit if you choose for whatever reason not to go on the hunt. The point of a deposit is so they know what to expect come hunting season. So that they are not left with open spots and no money when someone backs out.

Maybe it would be the kind thing to do but they don't have to do it.

Suggestion instead of threatening them and bad mouthing on internet, try work something out. Like would please try and fill that spot and if you can I sure could use that deposit back. They might be more open to an approach like that.

Sent them a email. With link to this thread.

From: Matt
19-Jul-22
What did the contract say and how far in advance of the hunt did you cancel?

From: SBH
19-Jul-22
Agree with the above. Sorry to hear about your wife losing her job, I'm sure that is creating a difficult situation. I wish you both the best on your move, 3,000 miles is a big one! I'm not sure the outfitter is out of line. What is their refund policy? Fall is only a few months away so may be hard for them to fill that spot, assuming it's for this fall.

From: bigswivle
19-Jul-22
Bought a cancellation elk hunt from a guy here last year for me and my wife. Wasn’t expecting to much just wanted to get out of Florida and into the mountains. Both of us got Covid 10days or so before the hunt(I got pretty sick) and obviously we had to cancel. Notified the guy here and the outfitter(never asked for money back) and haven’t heard crap from either one of them. Live and learn, 5,000$ I’ll never get back(or at least get offered a spot for ‘23)

From: Hosed by WCO
19-Jul-22
No contract. Nothing on website about cancellation. I tried asking nicely. They just ignored my calls and e-mails. It is not until September 30th. I never canceled. I simply called to ask when the cutoff is to cancel and refund. Ha! Sue just said we keep your deposit until next year. Uh, yeah, NOT!

From: Hosed by WCO
19-Jul-22
I found another review where a guy in 2017 got hosed out of 5K on a hunt deposit. Sue blamed it on computer hacker. He never got his money back. Said he filed FBI complaint, but no update.

From: Norseman
19-Jul-22
Contracts are good. For both parties envolved.

From: Hosed by WCO
19-Jul-22

Hosed by WCO's embedded Photo
Hosed by WCO's embedded Photo
Here ya go.

From: Hosed by WCO
19-Jul-22

Hosed by WCO's embedded Photo
Hosed by WCO's embedded Photo

From: Hosed by WCO
19-Jul-22

Hosed by WCO's embedded Photo
Hosed by WCO's embedded Photo

From: Hosed by WCO
19-Jul-22
So, JohnMC… Wanna preach some more about being open to “approaches” after seeing these two (2) claims from others and their 5K losses?

From: Bou'bound
19-Jul-22
What does AG stand for. No state attorney is going to get involved in contractless dispute over 2,000. Your facts above don’t make a case for you regardless of how bad they screwed 100 guys before you. They may not have cases either

What other details can you provide other than you want to get a do over for your reasons at the inconvenience of others. They did nothing wrong. Maybe not going above and beyond to satisfy but not doing anything less than they have a right to do

From: JohnMC
19-Jul-22

JohnMC's embedded Photo
JohnMC's embedded Photo
I emailed outfitter so they could respond. She emailed me back and asked me to share her email on bowsite.

From: Jim McNamara
19-Jul-22
Thanks John.

From: Grey Ghost
19-Jul-22
According to Jim Shockey, you shouldn’t be entitled to a dime of your money back, and you should send another deposit for a future hunt.

Outfitting is ruining hunting.

Matt

From: butcherboy
19-Jul-22
It’s also interesting that op’s handle is “hosed by WCO” just joined to rant and try to discredit someone cause he is ticked.

From: DanaC
19-Jul-22
Would it be possible for someone else to buy out the hunt? Give you your deposit back and pay the balance to the outfitter?

From: Slate
19-Jul-22
I booked a Kodiak Brown bear hunt and lost $5000 because I had to postpone because of a shoulder injury. I ended up hunting with the same outfit. It’s business. I understood. I could of lost $10,000 but he got a hunter to take my cancellation hunt. He lost money. He did not make more keeping my deposit. Again it’s business

From: HDE
19-Jul-22
First and foremost, why are you having to move 3,000 miles away? Are you that dependent on your wife's income? If you are, why are you booking hunts on a single household income where it sounds like you almost live paycheck to paycheck simply because you have to move?

Simply an observation from the cheap seats is all...

From: drycreek
19-Jul-22
What butcherboy said. Bad manners to say the least.

From: Pete-pec
19-Jul-22
Sympathy is something you will likely not find here on bowsite. Facts are always going to be the first thing asked. I would agree that the word deposit is something you know gets you the hunt, and when you cannot fulfill your end of the hunt, you're typically going to lose that deposit. Now if the outfitter was to cancel the hunt and not return your deposit, you'd likely be getting a greater amount of agreement on your side of this hunt. I have to agree. Written and signed contracts alleviate most disagreements on a handshake sort of deal.

From: Shug
19-Jul-22
Maybe try selling the deposit for a loss.. say 50 cent on the dollar .. at least you would get something back… llama packer reading your post made me think of my cousin vinny when Joe Pesci objected to a witness… Herman Munster said .. That is a lucid intelligent well thought out objection..

From: midwest
19-Jul-22
Why would an outfitter even require a deposit if they were going to refund it if the client decided to cancel? I assumed the deposit is the clients commitment to the outfitter they are filling an opening he has available. He has to turn away other potential clients that may have taken that opening once he received your deposit.

Sorry for you and your wife's employment situation. Tough times.

From: Thornton
19-Jul-22
Outfitters complain this is their way of life, hence they must keep the deposits to pay bills. Complete garbage. I could see this as truth if it were a Nunavut family surviving off the land, but many of these outfits have other jobs and income. Nobody forced them into outfitting, and if they had a shred of honesty or a conscience, they wouldn't even want to keep the deposits. My dad taught me to have backup for the backup, and never rely on one for your way of living.

19-Jul-22
Do you understand the point of a deposit? Sounds like rough circumstances but you are putting the outfitter in a difficult position. Their respond seems very reasonable compared to your post

19-Jul-22
Guided hunts and disputes about them have been around a long time. Communicate, ask questions, get a written contract when money is involved, research reviews, research reputation, and set realistic expectations.

Sorry for your situation. I went on some fantastic hunts long before any competent accountant would say I could afford them. Zero regrets since some of them don't exist anymore and others have become a lot more expensive.

19-Jul-22
I think John, just slammed the door on him! Lol….

From: drycreek
19-Jul-22
The deposit is assurance that you will keep your commitment or forfeit. I’ve had to change plans and sold my deposit (at a small loss) with the outfitter’s blessing. I’ve also had to defer a hunting trip for a year because of medical conditions.

If you contract to buy a house and change your mind do you get your earnest money back ? If you do, then what’s the point ?

19-Jul-22
I honestly can’t figure out why someone would think it’s “bad” for an outfitter to requests deposit and say “they chose this life” as the reasoning. I chose to do plumbing and heating, doesn’t mean people can not pay for jobs before during and after completion. Or sign the contract, I order the stuff and then you tell me to screw and I’m stuck with your material.

From: JTreeman
19-Jul-22
I have a hard time taking anyone seriously that registers specifically to slam an outfitter with a handle like that. Seems petty and childish.

Sounds like the guy may be in a tight spot and I empathize, but grow up and be responsible for your decisions. I think we all pretty much realize deposits are not refundable, it’s not a big secret. I’ve walked away from a couple over the years and even one that the outfitter offered to return, but I declined. It wasn’t his fault that I didn’t hunt!

Could the outfitter return it? Sure. Should they? Maybe. But I can tell you with the attitude this guy seems to have I think I wouldn’t be too quick to send it back. Although, I might rather return double his deposit just to not have him in camp!

—Jim

From: Dale06
19-Jul-22
I did not read all of the above, but I got the gist of it. That outfitter doesn’t owe you a dime. But if you had been civil and tried to find a compromise, maybe there could have been a better outcome. That ship has sailed. You are breaking the contract to come and hunt with him and her. They may not fill that spot and that will be lost revenue for them. That’s the way the game works.

From: Matt
19-Jul-22
"First and foremost, why are you having to move 3,000 miles away?"

I googled the straight line distance from Seattle to Miami and it is 2,700 miles. Moving 3,000 miles within the US is really, really hard to do.

From: t-roy
19-Jul-22
Maybe he shoulda turned left at Albuquerque, Matt…

20-Jul-22
If you can’t afford to lose a deposit or hunt cost. Buy trip insurance. It’s cheap It’s a sleazy move to sign up just to rail about your own poor decisions

From: Bou'bound
20-Jul-22
the inherent issue with these situations, and the mindset of the few who think the checks should be refundable in cases other than where that rare situation is agreed to ahead of time by the parties, is clear to me

These trips are our vacations, our fun, our joy, our happy times, th exception to our complex lives. Because of that some find it difficult to realize that for the outfitter is it not a vacation. It is their business, their work, their livelihood.

How would the hunters succeed in the parts of their non-hunting life if they operated in business like they were on vacation all the time.

Some hunters think how can someone take advantage of their vacations, fun, joy, or happy time. The outfitter rightfully does not understand how someone can think that their business, their work, their livelihood, how they put food on the table and diapers on the babies bottom can be so cavalierly treated.

The outfitter is right. Take the example of a non-refundable plane ticket. Buy at one price (far cheaper) if you want to accept risk that you'll be at the gate as agreed to. Pay a high premium if you want to have flexibility to come and go as you please.

I bet if the poster made a deal with the outfitter when he booked that he'd pay $4,000 for a refundable deal vs. $2,000 for the standard terms the outfitter would have accepted the 4K and hoped for the best but planned for the worst. At 2K he knew his downside.

This is silly.

From: fuzzy
20-Jul-22
Butcher boy said it well

From: Nomad @ work
20-Jul-22
"Maybe he shoulda turned left at Albuquerque, Matt… "

Matt for the internet win of the day with an old Buggs Bunny reference!

From: Jethro
20-Jul-22
If as much effort was put into resolving issue with the outfitter as was put into joining Bowsite and starting a thread, results may be different.

20-Jul-22
OP might have a point if the outfitter has a waiting list and can move another hunter into that slot.

From: Bou'bound
20-Jul-22
no he wouldn't.

The fact that there is a list a mile long or if this is the only hunter booked in a decade the deal is the deal unless the party in the right chooses to offer unexpected and unrequired options. No entitlement to re-doing the terms unless the outfitter says so. the outfitter has the opportunity to double dip based on the terms and can't be blamed if they choose to.

not all would but all could under this deal. he has the right to keep deposit and rebook.

there is a difference between what informed parties have a right to expect vs. what they may hope to get beyond that. In this case the long gone original poster has an expectation that is incongruous with what he has a right to and what he paid for. Anything better than what he has a right to is a gift not a right.

From: Rut Nut
20-Jul-22
From: Jethro20-Jul-22

If as much effort was put into resolving issue with the outfitter as was put into joining Bowsite and starting a thread, results may be different.

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think we've seen the last of the OP.................................................................... after John posted that e-mail! ;-)

From: Rut Nut
20-Jul-22
BTW, it says he supposedly lives in Nevada.............................................................so he must be moving to somewhere in New Brunswick Canada......................................................;-)

From: APauls
20-Jul-22
There are many people who don’t understand what a deposit is or how deposits work.

From: LINK
20-Jul-22
There is right according to the law and outfitter norms. There is also right according to an unwritten code of decent human beings. I understand some people only care what’s in a contract but it would be very decent for the outfitter to refund the money if they can fill the slot.

From: JayZ
20-Jul-22
I agree APauls. I can't imagine trying to keep a full camp if there were no deposit.

This world is full of people that aren't willing to keep their word. Yeah, I'm coming hunting....right up until the day you're supposed to show up and pay.

From: kscowboy
20-Jul-22
I am an owner in an event venue. A friend booked a weekend in October and the event he was planning fell-through. We had weddings wanting this date but it was booked. They went elsewhere. Now he is asking for his deposit back. If someone books this date, we will give him a chunk of it back. Unfortunately, this close to October, that likely isn’t happening. Should I give him back his deposit because he’s a friend? No, it’s not fair to my business partner and we lost out on other revenue by him being on the calendar.

20-Jul-22
Link has the proper attitude. The decent thing to do if you can replace the revenue is to give a refund minus any administrative expenses. Double dipping says more about a person’s character than their business acumen Bou.

From: Mule Power
20-Jul-22
Did you know that an outfitter on national forest has a set amount of user days he can sell? If you buy them they are reserved for you therefore he cannot sell them to someone else. If you cancel in July reselling them is difficult. He’s probably busy with other things. Selling season is winter and early spring. Not only would he have to invest time to sell but also potentially advertising money. How far you moved is irrelevant.

I can see this turning out to be one of those threads where the OP, a total newbie to the forum, doesn’t get the sympathy he hoped for and never comes back to comment again. Probably registered on other forums for the same purpose. And that is my client review!

From: Starfire
20-Jul-22
Anyone notice he made a user name just to come on here and voice his complaint. While I would feel bad about losing the deposit that should have been figured in during the decision to move. Why can't he travel back for the trip? As for his wife losing her job (reading between the lines) he makes it sound like he is dependent on her paycheck for his hunting. We do not know all the circumstances.

From: Pat Lefemine
20-Jul-22
Seriously, what is the difference between cancel culture and what these clients do when they feel cheated by outfitted hunts?

I have no sympathy for you, seriously. You register on my site with a handle that bashes an outfitter that has absolutely no obligation to refund you. If I was the outfitter I would have worked with you before this scorched earth campaign of yours, but now - forget it.

And even if this outfitter refunds your money, I bet we never see you again. I'm sure many of us are looking forward to that day.

From: Brotsky
20-Jul-22
I don't think this went the way he expected it to. :)

From: KHNC
20-Jul-22
I lost 500.00 deposit on a Maui Axis deer hunt in 2020. Hawaii's dumaz governor wouldnt let anyone in the state without forcing them to a two week quarantine on arrival. Outfitter refused to refund. Now that i have a chance to go back, I am choosing to go to Spanish Wells on a spearfishing trip instead. Leaving July 30 and cant wait! I will never go to Hawaii again in my lifetime. They dont want tourists in Hawaii anyway. Spanish Wells has been way more welcoming up to this point. Less crowds and beautiful coasts. Lobster season opens August 1st!

From: Rut Nut
20-Jul-22
I would put $$$ on that Brotsky! ;-)

From: fuzzy
20-Jul-22
Looks like the outfitter acted in good faith.

From: JL
20-Jul-22
Look for outfitters who do have a history of honoring refunds, partial refunds up to a reasonable certain point....or at least willing to shift the dates around. Pass over ones who do not....too risky.

It would be nice to have a list of outfitters who honor refunds, partial refunds or will slide dates. Why not add that block to the Outfitter Reviews section? Likewise, reviewers should note that in their reviews to help others.

With the ever rising cost to do hunts, it would be wise on the clients part to exercise some due diligence on deposits when searching for an outfitter and strongly consider getting trip insurance.

Link (above) is on to something and HFW has a point about outfitters who intentionally double dip.

I wouldn't come to a website and do a drive-by flaming on an outfitter....poor form. In this case...it looks like this outfitter is trying to be accommodating.

From: grasshopper
20-Jul-22
Sounds like the insurance business, they collect money, and keep it.

No contract, no one to blame but you.

From: Old School
20-Jul-22
Easy to get emotional when one personal issue starts bleeding over into other areas.

If you’re still here and reading the posts and really want help and not pity here is my advice - call the outfitter back and APOLOGIZE for your emotional response due to your stress. Then work with them on a future hunt. If you can afford to move 3,000 miles away, I’d think you could afford that drive back next year to hunt.

From: JL
20-Jul-22
^....a reasonable approach.

20-Jul-22
Side note. As suggested above charge two deposit prices. Outfitters should offer an insurance policy for the deposit and hunt cost. Trip cancellation legal language is readily available for an outfitter to add for a client to purchase or decline. And then have the client sign saying they declined the trip cancellation fee. The outfit May as well generate another stream of cash.

From: CTBobcat
20-Jul-22
The outfitter even offering to provide the hunt at a different time is a super nice gesture. I don't see any reason to complain.

From: Vaquero 45
20-Jul-22
If OP had his complete deposit refunded back . I wondered if he would have started a thread " Kudos to G & S " , useing that as his sign in handle . Doubt it , by the way he chose to handle this . If I was in that position I would have attempted to "work" with outfitter and book at a later date , even if it was a year or two away . Also by then the rates would be higher with inflation and I would agree to pay the reasonable extra request/ rate . I guess his main stone to grind is to discredit outfitter which no doubt not all are perfect and also have F Lee Bailey see this and represent him for free !

From: Scoot
20-Jul-22
This thread has done a nice job of casting the outfitter in a positive light and the OP as a piece of work!

From: Quinn @work
20-Jul-22
Booked a cancellation hunt with Weitas Outfitters last week. They gave me $2,000 off the normal price. Wired my refundable deposit directly into their bank account. Didn't have to sign a contract either.

Anyone here ever hunt with them?

:)

From: DanaC
20-Jul-22
Contracts protect BOTH parties to a deal.

From: GFL
20-Jul-22
I lost 6k for a deposit on an Alaska moose hunt. I tore my rotator cuff one month before the hunt. I learned a lesson about getting insurance and moved on. Wasn’t the outfitters fault.

From: Shiras42
20-Jul-22
Crickets from the OP.

It's a quiet fall for me and I just may try to find a cancellation hunt somewhere. Anyone know of any great deals out there? Good thing I am not looking for a black bear hunt since Quinn already took this one. ;)

From: Mule Power
20-Jul-22
I have a hunt booked with Lone Wolf. Cancelled twice due to covid. I have a $1500 deposit paid. Give me $500 and it’s yours.

From: JohnMC
20-Jul-22

JohnMC's embedded Photo
JohnMC's embedded Photo
Y'all think the OP Dave Flanders is Ned Flanders brother?

From: Quinn @work
20-Jul-22
Shiras42,

My wife is looking at a job that's 4,000 miles from Denver so I may have to cancel this hunt so you may be in luck. :)

From: Rut Nut
20-Jul-22
LMBO Quinn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! : )

From: nchunter
20-Jul-22
Creating an alias that clobbers the outfitter says it all. Not sure if this is even real or just an attack on somebody he is mad at.

From: JohnMC
20-Jul-22
Nchunter - In the OP defense. He used his real name when he registered. It looks like the screenshot of the email in his first post has been deleted. But in the email it said Dave Flanders. And that's the same name in his registration. So he is not using a alias I don't think. Even if his handle was. A dig in itself.

From: Michael
20-Jul-22
For those that say the OP should have had a contract, Why?

It’s not hard to understand the reason for a deposit. It’s not hard to understand it doesn’t have to be refunded.

I get it things come up. But when they do you could be out of money. That’s called life. If you don’t want the risk don’t take the chance. It’s that simple.

As for the OP goes. Well we all have opinions and I will keep mine to myself.

From: JL
20-Jul-22
^....."For those that say the OP should have had a contract, Why?"

IMO.....your hunt is a business deal. In the event things go south, you have a document that is your written evidence of an agreement. It defines the nature of the business agreement for both parties. Sure....a contract may not be a requirement. However if big dollars are on the line....a contract and trip insurance will help protect everyone.

20-Jul-22
This thread has probably done more damage to the outfitter than to a person who has never posted here before. I agree this could have been handled much better, but the OP probably had his final answer from the outfitter and so took this approach and was given room to post other interactions which will sow doubt with some. An outfitter report is how these should be handled, maybe Pat can let them know and they can share their perspective?

We had some of the same concerns with the border closing. I had $2k of a contracted $3k hunt for bear in MB for 2020. Border closed, outfitter offered full refund or move the hunt to the next year. 2021 border still closed. Outfitter offered the same. I left the deposit with him. 2022, good to go, took a friend and he had to pay the 2022 price of $3300. I sent my remaining balance, which to me was $1300, not $1k. Had an awesome hunt, treated like gods. They received nice tips.

The outfitter is a sponsor here, Sleeve Lake. Golden Rule works much better than a legal contract when you are dealing with people of good integrity.

From: TD
20-Jul-22
"I just got a call and booked a late cancellation hunt for a great deal!" is posted here all the time. These cancellation hunts normally HAVE to be booked at a discount for a fast sale, if they even sell at all. Sold at lost revenue to the outfitter, despite the fact he has made his commitment and has honored his end of the deal. Or revenue at least made up by the people who canceled with the deposit they put down to hold that spot.

If this was a case of the outfitter having to cancel and not refunding the deposit then you likely have a case and a legit right to publicly bitch if all else fails..... which we have seen here before, a huge one with a caribou outfitter if I recall..... then you'd have an honest gripe. (And also if I recall..... all those folks had contracts too?) But clearly this is not the case. This literally is all on you trying to pass on your misfortune and problems on someone else.

As a side note..... IMHO the fact that a person is not honoring a "handshake" deal makes it worse than trying to worm out of a contract. Lots of folks still go by their word. Folks who would risk their lives honoring a handshake. Or seek a fitting punishment for breaking it. $2000 sounds pretty cheap in some cases......

From: JakeBrake
20-Jul-22
I bet we would all gladly refund his BS registration:)

20-Jul-22
I guess he’s 28..

From: Lawdog
20-Jul-22
The OP has failed to find a sympathetic ear or more accurately typist and has hopefully gone elsewhere. However, one needs to be careful what they post about an outfitter. Outfitting is their business, and defamation is real. The outfitters seem to know who this guy is and where to find him. On the topic unless the agreement is that the deposit is refundable, it's not. If I had to cancel a hunt (it better be real good) and when I'm done crying about it, I'd ask real nice if it could be used on a later hunt or if I could give my hunt to another. The rest of the OP's post is just sour milk.

From: Shug
20-Jul-22
Soon to become a classic

From: Bou'bound
20-Jul-22
It’s already a classic 80 posts with no divergent opinion

we normally can’t go six posts without a debate and dueling points of view.

And by the time we hit 15 the name-calling has started

This post actually proves there’s hope for us all after all or at least all of us but one. (The op)

From: scentman
20-Jul-22
My jaw dropped reading Pat's post... my drink went thru my nose after Brotsky's!

From: Shug
20-Jul-22
Soon to become a classic

From: deerhunter72
20-Jul-22
Sour grapes…Sounds like the outfitter tried to work with him, what more did he want? Nobody likes to lose money, but he had options. Using BS to bash an outfitter is typical of the younger generation.

20-Jul-22
The only thing this thread is missing is a link to a college essay writing website ;) Thanks for the entertainment

From: Ollie
20-Jul-22
How is it double dipping if the outfitter keeps the deposit and then resells the hunt as some of you imply? Maybe that helps make up for the occasional client who simple never shows up in camp and did not pay in full. The outfitter still has bills to pay to staff, for supplies procured in expecting the person in camp, state or provincial permits, etc.

From: HDE
20-Jul-22
"I googled the straight line distance from Seattle to Miami and it is 2,700 miles. Moving 3,000 miles within the US is really, really hard to do."

I didn't want to spend the time to check his accuracy. Just asked him based on his own number...

From: TreeWalker
20-Jul-22
May not be a good rule of thumb for the OP though long ago as a young man I learned to only promise money due in a few months which was money that I had in hand. If keeping your word a few months down the road is dependent on no curve balls showing up in life then you might benefit from considering if you were not in a position to afford this hunt. We entered a recession earlier this year so layoffs have happened and will happen the next 18 months. Roofs can leak. Vehicle motors can go bad. Check references and make sure you can really scratch the needed check to protect your deposit. Outfitters often have enough going on getting ready for season than to deal with a hunter backing out of a deal.

From: Whatthefoc
21-Jul-22
‘We do not refund, but we will gladly reschedule’ - it’s a fairly common policy ….

Note to Gary and Sue - if you have a cancellation hunt to blow out, gimme a call. :)

From: Bou'bound
21-Jul-22
We’re obviously keeping this thread going for own enjoyment at this point but I didn’t notice this inconsistency on the original posters initial posts…….

“No contract. Nothing on website about cancellation. I tried asking nicely. They just ignored my calls and e-mails. It is not until September 30th. I never canceled. I simply called to ask when the cutoff is to cancel and refund. Ha! Sue just said we keep your deposit until next year. Uh, yeah, NOT!”

Were you blown off and ignored or were you responded to with an answer you didn’t like

it can’t be both

From: Mule Power
21-Jul-22
Treewalker: “Protect your deposit”

What exactly do you mean by that? I think the first thing to do is define the word deposit. Simply put it’s a down payment on time and services reserved. A security deposit you could say. The outfitter still runs the risk of only getting a portion of his money when 100% of that time and potentially some payroll and supplies go unused. If he cancels he has to return it. Why then should the other person who entered the business agreement get his money back if the cancellation is made by him ? It’s a two way street and the outfitter can choose to reschedule at his discretion. If a client tells me he can’t hunt because he moved it’s unlikely I’m going to offer him that. Maybe depending on his attitude. But if he tells me he has a medical condition or his wife passed away I’m not hesitating to offer him a hunt the following year. If a hunter wants protection for his deposit he needs to purchase trip insurance from a third party. But guess what…. Their guidelines are probably stricter than the outfitters. Business is business and telling someone your wife lost her job or you decided to move is asking for a decision based on nothing but sympathy. Are you still working? Why isn’t your wife getting another job since just about everywhere is hiring? Your hunt is only a few months away haven’t you already set aside money for it? What about the horses I fed all year to have ready and waiting for you? What about my advertising costs that enabled you to find me in the first place? What if my wife lost her job too? What about some sympathy for the outfitter?

One thing I found over the years is instead of hunters seeing an outfitter’s business as being no different than a contractor or a banker or lawyer they somehow view it as a side business that’s all fun and games. A hobby almost. A labor of love might be somewhat accurate but the key word is still labor and people pay their bills and support their families from it. Too many people in this world fail to put themselves in the other guys shoes.

From: Rut Nut
21-Jul-22
Bou- I did see that, but just assumed he meant they ignored his calls and e-mails after the initial contact (telling him they keep his deposit until next year). Of course you know what they say happens when you ASS-u-me........................................... ;-)

From: Shug
21-Jul-22
Edit

21-Jul-22
I have hunted with Gary and Sue double digit number of times. I have never had any issue with there honest or integrity.

From: fuzzy
21-Jul-22
I reckon the OP skedaddked after spewing

From: SteveB
21-Jul-22
I see it a bit different I guess. Definitely bad circumstances (if true) for the OP to say the least. But if he really did contact to cancel only a week after sending the deposit, the outfitter wasn't out anything actually and could have kept $500 for their trouble and refunded the balance and moved on. What I would personally do though? Buy a $300 air ticket and go on my hunt or at the very least move it to the following year.. separately....doesn't the $5k above seem like a BIG deposit on an Idaho hunt?

From: Bou'bound
21-Jul-22
He'll be back on here soon reporting in on the Attorney General's results to get justice so stay tuned this bad boy ain't over yet.

21-Jul-22
Has Rick Wiltshire ever posted before? Asking sincerely because we have seen how some of these go in the past. Double digit hunts for what?

From: Shug
21-Jul-22
Hose Job… did they offer you a hunt for the following year? I would think that’s about the best an outfitter could do…

From: JohnMC
21-Jul-22

JohnMC's embedded Photo
JohnMC's embedded Photo
Here is a interesting twisted. Same guy on the Archery Talk. Says he has to hunt with a Air Rifle. Wonder why that is?

From: Pat Lefemine
21-Jul-22
I find the last sentence even more interesting. “I need someone around with a handgun in case I’m attacked? “

Attacked by what?

From: JohnMC
21-Jul-22
Bigfoot

From: JL
21-Jul-22
A felon?

Attacked by the bear I suppose?

From: Shug
21-Jul-22

Shug's embedded Photo
Shug's embedded Photo
Hey he isn’t the only felon that can’t carry a firearm… allegedly!!

From: Bou'bound
21-Jul-22
Fear of attack by an ATV rider with a flat tire who would try to rob him to get the air from his rifle for his tire repair.

21-Jul-22
Habitat for Wildlife - FWIW - I have been on Bowsite since at least 1/23/2011, primarily on the traditional forums. I seldom post as I find too many people post things of little interest to me. Not that it really matters, but my hunts have been for bear, both spring and fall.

Rick Wiltshire

21-Jul-22
Thanks Rick. Glad to see that!

21-Jul-22
Pat, and all…

This just isn’t passing the smell test. Was the $5k ever recovered? Can’t register for BS?

I filed a poor report about a bear outfitter here and took all kinds of crap for it. Had two guys PM and say they never got their rugs either and just gave up. Other PMs, all negative on the outfitter but only one would say so on the forum because of all the grief handed out.

It was a popular outfitter. Pat and I communicated and my position was and remains that situations change with any business and we need to be able to openly communicate to help protect each other so things like the caribou debacle don’t happen again.

In agreement with what we have seen so far that the OP could have handled this better. But we also have multiple concerns posted. This may not be exclusively poor behavior on the OP. I hope the outfitter responds.

21-Jul-22

Joe Walsh had a plan.

“My Maserati does one-eighty-five I lost my license, now I don't drive I have a limo, ride in the back I lock the doors in case I'm attacked“

From: APauls
21-Jul-22
"I have to hunt with air rifles" lol. Well there you have it folks.

If he is bear hunting I am assuming he is worried about a bear attack. Because his semi-auto air rifle isn't adequate bear defence. I don't think the outfitter need worry much about defending themselves here. Not sure how it is going for them on AT.

From: JohnMC
21-Jul-22

JohnMC's embedded Photo
JohnMC's embedded Photo
JohnMC's embedded Photo
JohnMC's embedded Photo

JohnMC's Link
A little more on the $5000 Incident. Not sure why I care enough to Google it but I did.

From: deerhunter72
21-Jul-22
That’s some above and beyond detective work there, John. Interesting stuff.

From: Bou'bound
21-Jul-22
They should pay him his 2K back and up it to 5K for him to promise not to hunt with them. That would be a value!

From: goelk
21-Jul-22
sherlock Holmes LOL

From: t-roy
21-Jul-22
This keeps getting curiouser and curiouser. Crossing international borders and everything! Might even have to get MI6 and Mossad involved. No KGB, though.

From: Tracker
21-Jul-22
Im not sure if the OPs story about loos of his wife's job is true or he just got bookers remorse. Either way if it was just a week or so after he booked a reputable Outfitter should of had a little compassion (not much of this around much anymore) and refunded fi nt all at least some of his money. Keeping $500 would have been acceptable IMHO. Im not much for guided hunts but I doubt I would book with them if I was looking for one. I am kind of surprised there was not more hunters coming to defend them.

From: blackbear62
21-Jul-22
From the posts and information above, it appears this happened in 2017. Why is he writing this here now?

From: JohnMC
21-Jul-22
Blackbear that is in regard to the case the OP posted to show he was not the first to have problems. I would be curious how that case ended.

From: Matte
21-Jul-22
Me if I was an outfitter would charge a non refundable deposit in advance and a balance due the date of your scheduled hunt no matter if you show up or not. I would also include in this transaction a mandatory trip insurance policy. It covers all parties. I get paid no matter the situation and you get some money back.

21-Jul-22
I really wish the OP would come back on and call each of you out. That would make for one of the best bowsite threads ever. :)

From: Shug
21-Jul-22
^^^^^ I agree

From: JTreeman
21-Jul-22
Matte, you feel that it would be a good idea to force me to buy trip insurance I don’t want!?!? C’mon man…. If you want to buy some kind of insurance to protect yourself knock yourself out, but I would laugh and hunt somewhere else if that was a requirement. And how exactly would you force me to pay if I don’t show up?

I understand it’s just hypothetical, but just seems like a really bad idea to me. It really leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I show up in camp the outfitter says “let’s go ahead and settle up on money now, you owe $xxx. Some Guys can barely wait till you get out of the truck it seems. I get that it’s business, just feels tacky and disrespectful to me. I own businesses and I get paid when the client gets what they requested and are happy. And I have significant upfront costs that I never take a deposit/upfront money for.

Plenty of big hunts require payment in full 30 days in advance. I’ve done it, but I don’t particularly like it. I’ve booked all kinds of hunts from an agreement to show up on a date and never even brought up payment till the hunt was over to contracts pages long and huge deposits. There is all kinds and you all kinds of risks, just gotta decide what you are comfortable with.

Right at the beginning of the pandemic (march 2020) I sent a large deposit on a sheep hunt to an outfitter. He got the check and called and said “things are getting really messed up, I don’t know when I can provide the hunt, I’m tearing up your check and you can send another when things get cleared up.” I sent him another big check for a sheep hunt next year. But I would have blamed him for cashing it and holding my spot either…

—jim

From: Tracker
21-Jul-22
Saw the OP also made a post on ArcheryTalk forum.

From: JohnMC
21-Jul-22
Embry I had a couple Doozies of PMs from

From: ryanrc
22-Jul-22
A deposit holds your spot. You cancel or don't show they keep it. They could have possibly filled it with someone who would have shown up and paid the balance. It isn't that hard to understand. The examples of borders closing due to the reaction of the pandemic is different. Those weren't people backing out of hunts, those were people affected by policy changes. The OP is a clown. This is honestly just free advertising for this outfitter. Lastly, this site has been kinda dead lately and it is refreshing to see almost all of us pulling on the same end of the rope.

From: Bou'bound
22-Jul-22
The only thing I don't understand is this "Archery Talk" forum. What's that?

From: Mule Power
22-Jul-22
Treeman I’ll respectfully disagree. We could all give literally hundreds of examples of goods and services you pay for up front. One time a hunter didn’t pay me prior to packing him into a back country camp. It’s in my clothes bag. My partner has it and he’s sleeping. Etc etc. He finally gave me a $3500 check on the last day. It bounced. I made every effort to collect. Finally when doing a show near Detroit I went and knocked on his door. Three days in a row. I got my money a month later. It’s a tough world out there and I wouldn’t want hunters of every kind deciding whether or not to pay me after they got their ass kicked by a mountain and it was their guide’s fault they didn’t kill the 320 bull they planned on. I’ll add that other than payroll an outfitter covers all of the expenses before the hunters arrive.

From: Ratoney
22-Jul-22
I think all of this would be solved by just not hunting with an outfitter. Seems like quite a few shady ones out there.

From: Jarhead
22-Jul-22
He got something more valuable than a hunt... an education.

Carry on, Jar

From: RonP
22-Jul-22
"Seems like quite a few shady ones out there."

this applies to all businesses, trades and professions. there are some good ones too. it seems to be human nature to criticize more than praise.

From: Brotsky
22-Jul-22
"Seems like quite a few shady ones out there."

In my experience there's a lot more shady hunters than outfitters.

From: Pop-r
22-Jul-22
I don't believe it applies to all businesses as much as it does outfitters. They seem like the bottom of the barrel usually. Hopefully there are a few good ones for those wanting to go that route.

From: Stix
22-Jul-22
Maybe change your handle to 'Hosed by WCO & Oufitters'

From: TD
22-Jul-22
Brotsky X2.

Stir in unreasonable expectations, inexperience, incompetence, an attitude they paid to kill something...... and a half bottle of hooch.

From: Highlife
22-Jul-22
I now demand 80% up front been screwed to many times and a charge card on file

From: Chuckster
22-Jul-22
I'm waiting for Gary and Sue to register and pipe in here.

From: Bearman
22-Jul-22
Gary n sue shouldn't have too. The OP is a whiney little bitch!

From: SaddleReaper
22-Jul-22
Embry X2.

On another note - I've seen more "new" handles on this thread than I've ever noticed on any others....

From: Matte
22-Jul-22
Treeman,

That is ab acceptable response, and truly I would not want a client who would not only want to cover their investment but mine as well. Both parties can choose how they do business. I deal with hundreds of bookings every year. Deposit is non refundable and at my event center if you book for 100 but only 50 show up for your corporate get together you still pay for 100. We did our part to be ready and staffed so we expect to be paid. In 25 years not one company has complained about this policy as they understand business.

22-Jul-22
Saddle x2…lotta new names piping up bitching about outfitters requiring deposits etc.

From: Chuckster
23-Jul-22
Bear, agreed but I think they could fill in some details.

From: stealthycat
23-Jul-22
when the accuser doesn't come back to the thread they started .... that speaks volumes imo

From: fuzzy
23-Jul-22
Highlife/Dave I take 100% up front on most jobs, but I almost have to. I recently had a guy screw me on a measly $50 job that he was in a "I need it yesterday " hurry about, I did it next day and had the paperwork in the mail day after. Property sale went through over a month ago and still no payment.

From: LBshooter
24-Jul-22
Well HosedbyWCO hasn't responded to the post after it appears he was wrong. If they gave you credit for a future hunt and you said no then it's buyers remorse on your part and just want your money back. A deposit tells an outfiitter that your taking up the period of time for thier services and it's hard to replace that time with a new customer if you cancel. Being offered to have your deposit count for a future hunt seems to be a great gesture and you spit on it. Also, if I were WCO I would think of a slander suit against Dave Flanders, for defamation /,slander. You have to be careful when you decide to go after someone in the Internet,you can't lie and try and ruin their business, which to me seems what Mr. Flanders is trying to do for some reason. Once you make a allegation when it comes to a persons money you hurt the business, because said or unsaid there are going to be folks who won't book With WCO due to the accusations made. True or untrue, people aren't going to chance it.

From: Yellowcat53
24-Jul-22
If it was only a week and something like this hits I don’t think it’s too much to ask for the deposit back.

From: Ratoney
24-Jul-22
Want more land to hunt? Don’t hunt with outfitters. When the outfitters don’t have clients, they don’t lease up land. Pretty simple.

24-Jul-22
I can see both sides.

Non-refundable oughtta mean Non-Refundable, and unforeseen circumstances can be a Booger, but it’s not the Outfitter’s fault, and honestly, it’s not their problem.

The Irony here is that if the outfitter has a waiting list, they should have zero problem offering that slot to someone else, because No Blood, No Foul. Give the first guy a refund and make a Friend.

On the other hand, if the outfitter can’t find another client to fill the empty spot because some moron has gone on the internet and told The Whole Wide World how awful they are to deal with and how people should RUN AWAY….

Well, I guess sometimes you get what you paid for.

But I gotta tell ya. I don’t think this is the kind of thing that would go over too well on GoFundMe….

From: TD
25-Jul-22
With an air gun????

Maybe lots of things nobody thought through very well......

Bridges most often work best when not burnt down. If it finally comes down to having to burn them..... best to be standing both feet on the side that works out for you before any matches are lit. But then again I see folks all the time wandering around with burnt fingers and noseless faces......

From: SteveB
25-Jul-22
air rifle = felon

From: SteveB
25-Jul-22

SteveB's Link

25-Jul-22
Where the hell did airguns get involved??

From: Thornton
25-Jul-22
You can still shoot muzzleloaders if you're a felon. They just can't be readily converted to cartridge guns like a blackpowder revolver can.

From: DanaC
26-Jul-22
^ Buying primers (legally) can be a hassle depending on where you live.

From: x-man
26-Jul-22
I'm thinking the wife didn't know about the deposit until they needed it for moving expenses.

From: Mule Power
26-Jul-22
I’m thinking some people just expect everyone else to see things their way and that they are entitled to everything they ask for regardless of other people’s problems. If it doesn’t work out the way the insist they are “offended”. The word of the year… offended. Suck it up. You bailed out. You lashed out. You lose! I wouldn’t give that guy a dime even if I sold his hunt. I’d consider it the cost of damages by this and other threads he had the time to register and post all over the internet.

From: Rocky D
26-Jul-22
Ask yourself if you want this to be a friend, relative, or even an associate!

Talk about toxicity, this guy’s life wreaks of it! In his personal, work, and recreational life.

Talk about operating on a shoestring budget and have no situational awareness on his wife’s job. Toxic people are typically reactionary in nature which is driven by all the bad things that your body produces.

Instead of a reaction there needs to be logical well thought out courses of action that in turn becomes a response instead of a reaction!

You can bet that Gary and Sue got one hell of a REACTION!!!

From: Bou'bound
26-Jul-22
On the bright side his toxicity led to the original post which has been a gift on this site for the past week so for that he should be thanked

From: t-roy
26-Jul-22
Yeah, it’s definitely been a breath of fresh air vs all the other political posts….

From: Quinn @work
26-Jul-22

Quinn @work's Link

From: Quinn @work
26-Jul-22
^^^ Well that didn't work :)

From: JohnMC
26-Jul-22
Quinn sure it did. You just get to click on your link and pick the dead horse to beat.

From: Rut Nut
26-Jul-22
After finding out more info on the OP, and as others have suggested, I think if I was the Outfitter I would give his money back (and then some) just to make sure he didn;t show up to camp! THe guys sounds like a trainwreck waiting to happen..............................

From: LBshooter
28-Jul-22
Considering the OP started in heavy with eight posts, then has gone quiet, seems like a hit and run on the outfitter. I would think he'd be active throughout the debate. Once negative posts on him came he disappears.

From: fuzzy
28-Jul-22
The "handle" was a giveaway for me.

From: woodguy65
28-Jul-22
Still wondering why somebody would go through an outfitter to hunt with an airgun. If his deposit was 2k - how much was the actual hunt and what type of game is legal to hunt in Idaho with an air rifle??? I can imagine you would legally be able to shoot anything bigger than coyote, squirrels, coons etc. and to actually pay an outfitter to do that??? What the heck am I missing?

From: Bou'bound
28-Jul-22
there are airguns capable and allowed for big game in some places. these ain't your old Daisy red riders.

From: Mule Power
28-Jul-22
I have a question for the OP.

Lol ;^)

From: Inshart
28-Jul-22
Sounds just like a liberal democrat who didn't get his way and now he thinks he shouldn't be held accountable for his actions.

From: JohnMC
28-Jul-22

JohnMC's embedded Photo
JohnMC's embedded Photo
Attached is his email if y'all want to email him some of your questions. I took a screenshot when I emailed the outfitter before he deleted it from original post. I am trying to do some CPR on Quinn's dead horse. ;)

28-Jul-22
Bou,

You are good at keeping track of counts, how many of their former clients have voiced how good this outfitter was to use on this thread so far?

From: fuzzy
31-Jul-22

fuzzy's embedded Photo
fuzzy's embedded Photo

From: LBshooter
03-Aug-22
Just checking in to see if Flanders checked back in on his thread, Nope. Says a lot by his lack of interaction.

From: Bou'bound
03-Aug-22
he's waiting to be able to announce the outcome of the Attorney General inquest he indicated would be forthcoming. Give him time, the wheels of justice grind slowly.

From: Rut Nut
03-Aug-22
It’s obvious it was just a “HIT AND RUN” deal to try to smear the outfitter. Probably hit many hunting website message boards with no intention of coming back....................

From: Jethro
03-Aug-22
Give him time to get settled in at his new place.

From: APauls
03-Aug-22
Legend has it he's still driving...

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