The news story of that 20y old kid that drilled the active shooter in an Indiana mall- saving who knows how many people. The news said he drilled him at 40yds braced against something.
We are talking defensive pistol here....my guess is many of us are much better with our bows at that distance than a CC pistol- a layup shot with a compound.
Could you have made that shot in the same circumstances as that 20y old kid with your defensive pistol of choice?
I'm going to say no....as I never practice past about 40ft with a pistol [but I am now!]
Got some info from a Simon Properties guy who has watched the Greenwood mall active shooter attack video footage. He doesn't think about the details like we do, but I confirmed a few things thru him.
The distance at which Eli Dickens fired was 43 yards, according to the computerized AI video system there in the mall. The system is accurate to within ten feet.
Eli was up out of his chair within seconds and engaged with the shooter.
Eli fired from around the side of a flat-topped, squared-sided trash bin next to a floor-to-ceiling column or pillar there inside the building. He was shooting from what we'd refer to as a "strong-side barricade" position. Using the side of the bin to stabilize his grip and weapon. The guy told me it looked more like he was crouched there as opposed to kneeling.
It appears Eli made a kill shot with the first round he fired based on the suspect's reaction. His second round was a hit also. The active shooter simply wilted after being shot and showed no interest in doing anything other than getting back into the men's restroom door. The active shooter never fired at Eli, never even swung his gun toward him. It appears that he wasn't expecting anyone else to have a gun.
After the active shooter collapsed, he kept moving, and Eli continued to fire until the target's movements halted. Eli hit with 8 of the 10 shots he fired. It was a blessing that the active shooter collapsed so quickly. It's always easier to hit a stationary target.
There appear to have been bystanders running between Eli and the active shooter as Eli was firing. The bystanders were running for the nearby exit door. Eli was so focused on stopping the threat that he came close to hitting some of the fleeing bystanders, but luck was with him. I don't understand people running toward or past people who are armed and shooting at someone. But people do strange things when they're under stress.
This part is in no way confirmed, but another security guy at the Greenwood mall said the empty casings from Eli's pistol were marked with Federal Cartridge headstamps.
I find it interesting that the active shooter was psychologically out of the fight pretty much immediately upon being shot. That's largely been the case with active shooter incidents since we've been keeping stats on them in the 1990's. Except, of course, for the ones involving militarized terrorists, like the Inland Empire (California) attack in 2012. I'm thinking of the active shooters involving suspects who are video-gaming incel civilians like the recent ones in Highland Park and Buffalo.
The hero fired something like 10 shots and had 8 hits in the one story I read.
WRT to the perp situation in question, me thinks if it was indeed 40+ yards, that first take down shot was a lucky shot. The follow up ones may be more doable with the body laying on the ground. I know one technique we were trained on way back when was to skip the shots...especially shotgun shots. Shoot in front of the shooter and the round(s) will bounce off the ground and skip into the perp or body. Of course it's easier if the perp is laying horizontal. The idea for a standing perp skip shot was to hit the lower extremities. If the guy was skipping shots, ya...I can see him hitting the perp with a few at a distance. Whether intentional or not.....it was effective shooting.
I have to agree on two things. One skilled trained shooters here are impressed with this man’s skills
And two. Only Thornton is skilled enough to pull this off even with a 22 and blind folded. Shooting only at the sounds of the shooter. We all should be honored to have Thornton posting here with all of us mortals
It is one thing to shoot well when you are at a range, in the right mindset, and with distances you know and have practiced at is what a lot of responses seem to admit.
What is amazing is this young man responded so quickly without any warning. In an environment that he might have closely assimilated in training, but it wasn’t exactly the same and he had to quickly and accurately estimate the distance while everyone was running around.
I always shoot a lot better with my bow at home from marked yardages than I do at a 3D tournament with varied distances, and so do the other shooters I have attended with.
Great stuff and really hero brave stuff even if the shooter did not know that at the time of the shooting
Was there some luck, some Divine Assistance? Maybe, but I bet this kid practiced constantly, even just drawing his firearm to build the muscle memory to be able to do what he did.
I agree with ALL of your last post.
Everything real and more were on that kids side
Skilled and to young to be scared
Matt
Matt
I said this earlier in another thread but these candy ass worthless bags of skin that attempt this stuff do not expect anyone to fight back. They are cowards and if a few more of these shootings are met with return fire I think it will have an effect on preventing future events.
Helluva a shot young man and Thankyou for doing the right thing.
I smirk every time I think about that. And, the realization that a striker fired handgun, (only an assumption as I don’t watch the news much plus, the round count), fired with that precision, was the result of a very well trained shooter.
They walk among you everyday. People with a purpose and the ability to hurt or help you. I’ve always figured making laws that produce more capable helpers versus evil thugs was the best way to prevent these type things.
Life supports that theory. Think about it. Only one man in the last 55 years has openly mocked and tortured Mike Tyson willingly. For obvious reasons, the one idiot that did do it, won’t ever do that again. Same principle applies when these idiots pick their locations to do these shootings.
In my mind, that pretty much trumps emotions created by having more well trained good guys. Plus, it’ll fill the coffins with the bad guys instead of random people. I like it.
I do know my gun would be empty trying
The light, short 329 S&W 4" barrel .44 Mag I had that weighed half as much as the 629...I probably shot it half as well. I'd guess that semi-auto carry guns would be like shooting the 329 but with lighter recoil. Doubt the semi auto carry gun triggers are near as good as the two S&W revolvers mentioned were in single action mode....probably more like shooting them double action. So that said...sounds like the shooter did well with the carry gun...likely better than most would.
I'll ask the question...could you put 8 of 10 arrows in a combat situation into a man-sized silhouette target at +40 yards?
Is there any legal action against him.
I don't know Eli personally...but very appreciative and proud of our hometown hero!
God will help humanity. If people take what he offers. Instead of assuming they have all the answers.
too bad this young man doesn't meet the criteria to have a statue built of him.
Relating to school shootings:::::: Several years ago I went to a seminar where Lt. Colonel Grossman talked about these "kids" who are playing games where they get points for killing people (extra points for killing first responders / law enforcement).
He talked about how these "kids" are extremely accurate - out-shooting most cops, and how they have grown incensed to what life really is -- to them (the active killers) this is just another game of sorts.
Shooters on YouTube are videoing themselves trying something similar and calling it the "Dickinson Drill"
I don't think its a guess to say that Eli is a practiced pistol shooter- probably a club shooter.
I do think its worth examining the principles Grossman expounds on in his book, "On Combat" [hat tip to Mez for recommending that]
Eli shot 10 rounds....and he was totally focused on the shooter while folks ran in front of him- that could have been bad. Current combat training recommends accurate shots on target then expand your peripheral vision. It sure looks like Eli had tunnel vision on the threat- common in that situation. Grossman points out its critical to expand your peripheral vision for other possible threats.
The fact he reacted immediately to the gun fire ...and the fact he picked a barrier for stability and concealment exhibits he has been training.
It will be interesting to hear his story...but also my bet is the PD's take notice and incorporate this barrier long distance shooting into their training if they haven't already.
Eli....I hope they pay you a million bucks for your story.....
Thank you for the perfect start to my weekend. Can’t stop laughing and smiling on that one!!
He ran to real cover, got a solid rest and most likely knew once he fired the first shot he would then draw fire.
He would have known that first shot was the only one he could take his time with.
There’s probably something to be said for not knowing that making that kind of shot under those conditions is Not Possible. Good that nobody else got hurt. Hope Eli is not too traumatized by the whole thing. It’s a hell of a thing to kill a man… Or so I’m told by men who’ve done it. Don’t really want to find out.
I’m sure I can hit at that range with a rifle, irons or not. Assuming I keep my Stuff together. Vertical, man-sized target with a bow - like a standing bear 3D, I don’t expect to miss many on that walk-up. Not talking 10s, just not a lot of clean misses. Pistol, No Data. But I know that most people would have to get lucky to nail that one on the first take. So I’m gonna say I would probably have been looking for a good, covered position a whole lot closer before drawing the shooter’s attention to myself.
This is a great point. He must of known or believed that once he fired the first shot that there would be return fire. Eli taking cover first makes believe this is probably true. Or maybe he was on autopilot.
Regardless, Eli is on a different level. It’s the guy you want next to you in a fox hole…as my WWII vet grandfather use to say. Some ordinary people do extraordinary things.
That’s a hell of a shot at that distance under that pressure. I couldn’t do it constantly. No way. I can’t do it constantly without pressure.
Glad it didn't happen like that. TMBB
Thank God he did!! He probably saved a lot of lives! And now he has to deal with taking a human life. Even in self-defense that can be a brutal thing to deal with! He is in my prayers!
No Good Deed goes unpunished, right?
The ex Navy seal at a pistol class I took, did a demonstration and hit an 8” steel plate EVERYTIME at 50y- bang bang bang with fairly rapid fire from his G19. I know many club shooters USPA and IPSC guys that can do it. These guy train.
Its my understanding, many cops don’t shoot much with their duty weapons- thus the reason for poor hits on target stats.
I’ve seen it in pistol classes. We consistently outshot the cops in the class and they admitted they needed to shoot more.
I built the outdoor pistol range for the LEOs in Concord,Ca and spent some time with the various agencies there. Some depts used to be tight on their ammo policy…… disincentivizing practicing with their firearm. The ones that do train are very proficient.
This young man had good training and laser focus on the target. Glad he didn’t hit any of the people running past between him and the attacker! Doubt they even registered when he was in the zone…
Pat Lefemine's Link
I’ve been in a shooter situation a long time ago when a nut walked into a convenience store in NY with an assault shotgun (I can’t carry in NY).
I learned two things that day: most people are paralyzed by fear, understandably, when a situation like this happens, and I also learned I wasn’t one of them. I immediately had situational awareness and moved quickly behind cover. I was hyper focused and wished I had my Sig when he entered. I know, without a shred of doubt that I would have neutralized that maggot had I been allowed to carry. It reminded me of my grizzly charge where I shot the grizzly with my recurve at 4 yards. Everything in slow motion and completely in control- until it was over then I had unbelievable anxiety.
Im sure there’s some psychological name for the ability to execute and focus during extreme danger. It’s absolutely real and I am sure this Indiana young man experienced it. Not everyone has it, but I do.
That being said, I couldn’t make those shots at 40 yards. I doubt Biden will give him the Presidential Medal of Freedom but if anyone deserves it, it’s this kid.
God bless the protectors. Like the guy defending the Texas church in Texas. Still gives me the chills.
Personally I had to disarm inmates three times, one with a Knife, one with a pair of Scissors, and one with a Razor Blade. Your nuts have to be tight if your going to fight. I was very lucky and attacked rather than retreat surprising the Inmates. All three times I was without backup so it was a balls to the wall situation. For that young man to engage rather than run shows what kind of person he is.
It’s easy to talk tough when it’s never happened. I would trust the quiet guy over the loud talker every time FYI
But most people do not train or shoot nearly that much. Eli, from what I read, had no formal training and learned to shoot from his grandfather. As such, 8/10 shots at 40 yards on a man shooting other people and likely not completely static without formal training is near impossible. I’d add that I think most people that own pistols and even most people that carry have little to no formal training, which would also make this feat close to impossible for them as well.
And for the record, your blurry pictures of a target at 40 yards that you can’t see isn’t very convincing proof you can shoot. I also don’t see a timer in that photo.
Those of us who carry and consider ourselves fairly competent will be motivated to sharpen skills. Those who carry and don't have the skills, or havent put in the practice time and money, May be motivated to improve.
This right here^. I encourage everyone to get out and train!! Look up some reputable instructors in your area and take a class or two if you haven’t already. And if you have, keep training and improving.
I have no doubt this happens at times. But from the vast majority of people I’ve trained with who have actually been in gun fights, they largely think the notion of “rising to the occasion” is a myth. They say instead, you will fall back to your level of training. The message is clear - build up your fundamentals and get as proficient as you can, as when the time comes it’s rare that you’ll ever be any better than your average day, and likely will be worse than that. Do all you can to make sure your “bad” is still relatively “good.”
I have no doubt this happens at times. But from the vast majority of people I’ve trained with who have actually been in gun fights, they largely think the notion of “rising to the occasion” is a myth. They say instead, you will fall back to your level of training. The message is clear - build up your fundamentals and get as proficient as you can, as when the time comes it’s rare that you’ll ever be any better than your average day, and you likely will be worse than that. Do all you can to make sure your “bad” is still relatively “good.”
No clue what you’re talking about regarding a broken dominant hand and a snub nose. As far as being a bad shot, I can post plenty of evidence that suggests I’m not. Here’s some runs from a local USPSA match as well as my picture with Kyle Defoor after a Defoor pistol hat qual (10 rounds, 25 yards, 15 seconds, 90 or better on a B-8). I’d say it’s a little more convincing than the pics of guns on a bench you posted.
I agree most law enforcement are not great shots. That said, most law enforcement have WAY more training than the average civilian and they still don’t shoot that well. The point is that the shot that Eli made is not an easy shot for the average person under zero stress. And under significant stress it’s almost impossible. You keep suggesting it’s easy based on you going outside, shooting without a timer, and without someone potentially shooting back at you. That’s not the shot he took.
YouTube.
How close are you shooting at your matches?
Target distances vary in USPSA - from literally a few feet out to 25+ yards. USPSA does not put a premium on accuracy at distance. It is more about the balance of speed and accuracy required to get a solid hit factor. But no doubt the top shooters (guys like Max Michel, JJ Racaza, etc) have incredible fundamentals to perform as they do and are generally VERY good when shooting for accuracy at distance.
Big Easy- thanks, I shoot both eyes open.. and, he wasn't being shot at.
What does shooting with both eyes open have to do with anything? You still need solid front sight focus when shooting at that distance to get those kind of hits and it's going to result in some level of reduced situational awareness/tunnel vision.
And regardless of whether Eli was being shot directly at or not, the pressure of engaging someone actively murdering other people with the threat of potentially being shot back at is nowhere near the pressure of shooting steel or paper. Not sure why you feel the need to continually downplay what he accomplished in order to stroke your ego. What he did was nothing short of miraculous and the results he delivered would be extremely difficult to replicate by even the most skilled and experienced shooters under those conditions.
Thornton has a cousin in the Marine Corps, that trumps your actual service;-)
Thornton, go congratulate the hunter recognized by B&C for their 175” black tail, without making it about you and/or minimizing their accomplishment.
He was not lucky, Providence was using him. General George Washington: “A man is never more truly noble than when he is sensible that he is only a secondary instrument of bringing to pass God’s great designs.
AMEN! You hear about it from time to time..........................people that do extraordinary things with God's help that they should NOT be able to do!
No, I posted those in response to your assertion that, and I quote, "Your comments are making me think you're a bad shot." Also, I never called you a bad shot...I just said what you were offering up as proof - saying you could do this and posting blurry photos of a target - were not very convincing.
I only made it to prove a point because so many of you said it can't be done
I don't see anyone saying it can't be done. I see a lot of people saying they couldn't do it. People who train and shoot a lot can execute the drill fairly "easily." It doesn't mean it's an easy drill for the average shooter. Also, executing the drill is way different than executing the feat Eli accomplished in real life. You are literally the only person I've heard who maintains that what Eli did is "easy" - and this includes talking to a lot of people about this who have actually been in gunfights. The fact is, you are hypothesizing that it is "easy" and you'll never know unless you are put in that situation. There's always a fine line between confidence and arrogance, and the consensus here seems to be you're way overstepping the line.
Matt
I don’t forget a lot of things I read. I’ll forget your name in 5 minutes if we are talking. But, I don’t forget what people write.
I’ve always paid attention to the things Thornton has stated about firearms. Because it’s obvious from previous threads over the years, he knows a lot about him. So, it wouldn’t surprise me if every single thing he says pertaining to his accuracy is true. Actually, I’d be surprised if it wasn’t.
I don’t take it as bragging. Because he said most anyone can match him. That’s a guy that has been there and done it.
I know his frankness pisses some people off. But, If you know firearms and spend time around people who do as well, you know what he says is true. Even if you can’t accomplish it. I believe that because I know people who possess that kind of accuracy.
It’s like a bow in that Not all practice is the same. That’s my experience. And, it’s the experience of everyone who’s posted on this thread too.
But, it is funny to read this. I’m betting all who loathe him wouldn’t stand out and test if he’s lying. Regardless of their internet persona.
Keep on keeping on.
That said, you can't say you could put 8/10 in a dude with an AR unless you've done it, just like you can't say you'd stand firm and make a good shot on a charging grizz till you've done it.
You can say that, on a target, you're X/XX at XX yards because you've done it. But it's just like bowhunting: Just because you can shoot a bow well to 80 yards and practice that far does not mean that you are going to kill anything at that distance.
Matt
What is turning people off IMO is not his frankness about his own ability, but a failure to acknowledge that this young man rose to the occasion.
Using Thornton’s same logic, being an RN with an Associate’s degree is not that big of a deal since so many people accomplish the same every year. Yet most of us recognize the hard work and dedication that went into such an undertaking, and we respect it. No doubt this young shooter performed under extreme duress in a situation few of us have faced, and he deserves our admiration and respect even if we can do the same on paper. (Again, I cannot.)
100%, Frank. I’m fairly sure I could pass the drill fairly regularly. However, passing the drill - which I don’t think is an easy drill for someone that doesn’t shoot a lot - and doing what Eli did are two completely different things.
Until you’ve been in a gunfight you haven’t earned the right to call what he did easy, regardless of how well you shoot paper. And the people whose opinion I respect on this topic the most who have been there and done that have described Eli’s feat as anything but “easy.” Characterizing it as such is a level of arrogance that is almost unmatched.
I agree. Have military friends who have said people would be surprised at the number of soldiers who freeze up first time in combat even though they trained for it.
A vivid memory I have from Marine Corps OCS is the guys who came in all tough talking about how bad they were. Usually is was the bigger guys who equated physical size with toughness. They were some of the first to DOR, drop on request.
To be honest, I was a poor working class kid who was under-weight so there was no limit on how much I could eat. I would have went to hell and back just to not feel hunger, so I stayed, lol. Of course, a couple of beers in me and the story changes to how bad I was;-)
Not sure how this damn thread became a question if I could shoot a mass murderer or not. Anybody that's spent 30 minutes around my house understands there's usually not ten feet between me and a gun ready to kill a varmint if it needs killed. Shooting a mass murderer would literally give me perma grin for the rest of my life. I work in emergency services. There's not a passive bone in my body and I'm used to running to trouble. But I do agree with some comments on here. We've had high, homicidal, drunk, abusive patients start threatening ER staff, and some of our most assertive doctors wilt and go hide in the med room until the patient is arrested.
As per my statements, I was surprised at how many people thought I was trying to take away from Mr. Dicken' heroic intervention. I was simply disagreeing that 40 yards is a hard shot on a man sized target , and most could make it if they tried or practiced. The trash talking commenced, and endures to even now. I mean, what else am I supposed to shoot besides a target to prove that for some, it is a fairly easy shot?
As was mentioned earlier, I think Mr. Dickens was proficient with his Sig Hellcat, which is a very accurate compact pistol. He seized the moment, much like many of us do when we make the decision during a hunt to execute a kill. His complete dedication to finishing the job makes it very clear to us all he knew what he was doing.
I have never returned fire. The trespasser in 1999 that fired 6, .22 bullets over our head was out of ammo. Back then, it was illegal to carry a pistol during archery season. However, my friend with me was a deputy and had a .45 Ruger in his pocket. The drive by shooting last spring was meant for the drug house a block up the street. The shooter mistook my and my neighbor's house as the victim's duplex. I was in the yard in less than 1 minute with Kevlar on and my Beretta at the ready. Quick enough to give a description of the shooter to the cop that showed up a few minutes later and they made an arrest on my description. I could still smell the gunsmoke. The detectives pulled a .40 cal. Bullet out of my tree for ballistics rather than tear the walls up in my neighbor's bedroom. Luckily she was laying down watching TV when the bullets went through her bedroom window. The 2019 incident seemed to be a pissed of hunter flinging lead at me and my hunting partner at a range of about 600 yards in Colorado. He fired 3 times, I was looking directly at him and saw the muzzle flash. In a panic, my mind told me I had maybe a second to hit the ground, which I did. All 3 bullets impacted about ten yards from us. Other hunters we encountered in the parking lot that were also hunting the burn, said there was no game on the burned mountainside when he started shooting. At the time, I supposed he thought we might be the black bear we had just seen up top, but then again, we were wearing blaze orange. Hindsight tells me he was pissed off.
RK, two years ago in the Fall River WA a guy was shooting doves at sunflower stalk level. I yelled at him we were across the field about 70 yards as were multiple other hunters, but he kept shooting. Doves were flying really low as usual prior to sunrise. He finally did hit me with a pellet in the leg and everything around me. Nothing more than a slight sting on my heavy upland pants, but there would be great harm bestowed on anyone that would put my dog's eye out. I promptly stormed across the field with my big lab and l walked up to him in a heated manner and warned him never to shoot at anything but 'up' again. He didn't say much, but he and his buddies left about ten minutes later.
Getting peppered happens all the time during teal season, but it's different because nobody knows where anyone else is in the cattails. Teal coming from all directions, and bigger shot that travels farther. Limited marsh access has our public Kansas spots packed.
Wow, just wow.
But I would insist on seeing someone who places a higher value on life.
Well maybe you should've been a little more careful with your words, as you said
"Not sure of the situation, but 40 yards on a man sized target is pretty easy. Good shooting nonetheless."
The whole point is that (1) no 40 yards on a man sized target isn't easy unless you practice and become proficient (which most people don't) and (2) the situation was pretty obvious - a man fires 24 rounds from an AR-15 into a busy mall food court, murders three people, injures a few more. There is nothing easy about executing the shot that Eli did.
Regardless, what is your normal EDC gun Thornton? I'm assuming it isn't that Beretta...
Matt
"Anybody that's spent 30 minutes around me understands there's usually not ten feet between me and a gun ready to kill something if it needs killed. Shooting a mass murderer would literally give me perma grin for the rest of my life."
First, every ER I have been ever in, has had armed security and a police presence just from bringing bad actors in. So stop pretending your part of a five man stack ready to breach, m'kay.
Second...A number of years ago my dad and I were watching a movie, typical terrorist hostage scenario, tables got turned good guys have the guns. I made the comment that I would just shoot them. Dad made the comment I never forgot. He said "It's not as easy as you think." For reference, he was a gunner in an M18 Hellcat tank destroyer. Saw some neat places like the Huertgen Forest, Bulge, Alsace, Remagen...
Third, While I didn't exchange fire, I did have a life threatening situation. Five "gentlemen" wanted to do bodily harm, as the situation escalated, I opened my jacket placed my hand on my SW6906 and asked if there was a problem. They decided not and left. I didn't have a perma-grin. I didn't have the attitude of "something needs killing". No. I puked. Shooting a milk jug at 50 yards ain't the same as a human at ten. Or forty.
Fourth. I would scrub all your posts about "something needs killing" and "have a perma-smile" at killing another person. Your glibness and almost lighthearted attitude at killing someone would be benefical to a gung-ho prosecuting DA.
Fifth. Step up, swallow that huge ego, and state that what Eli did was an extraordinary act. Like many have related from actual combat vets. But since the shooter didn't actually point his weapon at Eli, it was just like shooting a gong at ~40 yards. SMFH...
Sixth. Waiting with bated breath a long winded post filled with insults, derision, etc..
Seventh. I am truly impressed with your shooting ability. No, truly I am. With as much self back slapping I figgered your arm would be in a sling.
Made it more accurate Tom, thanks.
Is this what Red Flag laws are for? To prevent a ticking time bomb, someone with a chip on their shoulder and needing to prove something?
That’s really good advice but you are wasting your breath. I tried to tell Thornton something similar on a post a few years ago through a PM and he just tried to turn it around and said I was threatening him. He didn’t take the advice and his attacks, PMs, and threats escalated from there. Thornton apparently doesn’t understand the difference between an olive branch and a club.
Tom, thanks for pointing this out. I was thinking how insane it is for anyone, let alone the great Thornton, to put some of the things he has said in writing. These statements would highly incriminate anyone who ever actually has to defend himself. Could be the difference between self defense and murder. Circumstances wouldn't matter much to a DA who has a written proof that the "defendant" would enjoy killing another human.
Lambasted for saying the vaccine didn't work as reported.
Lambasted for saying I'd shoot a mass murderer in a second, and smile knowing everyone in his range would be going home to their families.
Lambasted for saying I'm a RN.
Lambasted for saying I could make that shot, and lambasted again when I proved I could.
Surprised none of you took the time to conversate with WWII vets on their feeling toward killing the enemy, or took the time to understand their thoughts on what they would do to Hitler if given the opportunity.
Typical responses from the few instigators on here who "swing left" and plot like vipers to twist words.
Maybe Santa Rosa Sherrif Bob Johnson hit the head on the nail for you softies when he encouraged folks to shoot home invaders to save taxpayer's money on incarceration and legal costs.
Author Sam Keen said it best when he wrote: "If some incarnation of evil as unambiguous as Hitler appeared again,I would have no moral qualms about killing the enemy. But, in the modern world of moral murkiness, I prefer to keep my hands as free of enemy blood as possible."
Below is a varmint "that needed killing" before he caused damage to my Kubota wiring. A snake near my house suffered the same fate a few weeks ago when I went to check limb lines in my creek. Last winter, it was a mangy coyote lurking a short distance from my sister's chickens that I encountered while stalking her hedge row for deer.
Certainly a moron wrapped in an idiot is appropriate here
If you could read, it was five not a couple. My friend and I had finished stocking a stream, about a mile stretch. As we got to our take out point, there was for better lack of words five bikers standing at our take out point. As we approached we started getting a ration of shit. As we approached the bank the five spread out. Told the lead big mouth (you know the type), Look just want to go to my truck and get a cold drink. That's when he said "That's not going to happen." At that point I stoppe, opened my jacket placed my hand on the grip and asked if there was a problem. He put his palms up said "no problem" and left. At that point, andrenaline kicked in, the shakes started and the nasuea set it.
I know it's not near as exciting as shooting a gong or a rat with a surpressed pistol, but hey we all can't be you. Honestly, reading your posts, you'd profile as a sociopath.
I've felt that way ever since he tracked down my social media and posted a picture of me in a Halloween costume as a way to try and discredit me on another thread, as if that picture was somewhat relevant. Sociopathic behavior for sure.
Matt.
That you went back and changed “something” needs killing to a “varmint” is an admission you recognize your comments are in dangerous waters. In PMs you have threatened multiple people. Matt’s red flag comment is a legitimate concern regarding your judgment in my opinion. How many times after a tragic episode have people said there were warning signs?
Calm down, breathe. Consider talking to someone that can help you.
bigeasygator's Link
I can only assume you’re talking to me and you mean this thread.
I wonder what happened to Dave.
I had an FFL at one time. I would be surprised if the ATF would authorize you for one today. As you explained to BEG about why you stalked him on the internet, others would do the same and your social media posts are troubling at a minimum.
Everyone can see you are parsing your words now. That is good, it means you partially understand the serious nature here at least.
Like BEG, I also have kept a good record of exchanges. For proof, I quickly recalled the thread where I was attacked for hunting over bait didn’t I? Proceed with caution Thornton.
You ought to be bothered as much by his posts of false bravado as anything. Differences of opinion shouldn’t have to “ get worked out”, but as we see with Thornton that is too often the case. People should be able to state their views without being derided, attacked and lied about, or be stalked on the internet. I would rather have a person of character on my side, shooting straight in life is important in all facets, not just with a firearm.
What you need to understand is that numerous guys have had strong reaction to your posts for a reason. Focus on that for your own good.
Until he murders someone? Ok, we disagree.
More lies Thornton, to be expected.
By your own admission he is saying things ill advised. Yet, he continues. Judgment is rightfully questioned.
You mean like labeling somebody ‘senile’ that you have never met?
I forget, your 16 years as a licensed RN grants you the capability to diagnose cognitive conditions over the web. That’s narcissism.
Rocky, the majority including me support red flag laws when evidence supports the action. Evidence does not include a frivolous accusation.
But yes, wearing a perma grin after killing anyone, not what the guys here who have done it tell us. For me, I hope to never experience it.
We disagree in our foundation of what equates a free man.
I believe most who claim to want red flag laws actually want to be the finger pointer, and assume they themselves are immune to such accusations.
None of us are immune, but we have records that either protect us or otherwise from false accusations.
There is no twisting, legal violations of certain types can prevent gun ownership.
Willing to bet we will see less of this going forward. And that will be good.
Not from me...he's just your run-of-the-mill creepy, stalkerish, internet sociopath; not your Red Flag warranting sociopath.
Back to the issue at hand. I had time to head to the range today after not having shot for quite a while (might even be a few months). Naturally, I devoted today to variations of the Dickens Drill. I ran it seven different times in four different ways - 1) running 40 yards first, 2) strong hand only (3x), 3) other strong hand only, and 4) the standard way it is meant to be done (2x). I ran it all concealed with my carry gun, a Glock 43X.
Had some issues with my timer that I had to deal with but it mostly worked. The results are below and Thornton now isn't the only person on the internet that as passed it with one hand. I taped each run so you can watch as well - and apparently couldn't get enough despite saying "one more time" about four times haha I guess I was having too much fun.
1. Run 40 yards - 10/10 ~17s FAIL on time 2. Standard drill - 9/10 ~9s PASS 3. Strong Hand Only - 6/10 FAIL 4. Strong Hand Only -7/9 FAIL on round count 5. Other Strong Hand Only - 5/10 FAIL 5. Standard Drill - 9/10 10.44s PASS 6. Strong Hand Only - 9/10 11.4s PASS
Shooting is simple...but not easy.
You did twist; "By your own admission he is saying things ill advised. Yet, he continues. Judgment is rightfully questioned.". I stand by my original statement that he said things that I feel is ill-advised. Him saying things that doesn't conform to my opinion of good things to say does not make him a murderer. Nobody's opinion of what he says determines he is a murderer. Since you brought up legal problems that can limit gun ownership please site the laws he's been convicted of that should require him to disarm. Please site facts and not just your personal judgements and feelings.
What I said is saying ill advised things, I will now add repeatedly, calls into question someone’s judgement. I NEVER said or implied it made him a murderer, and you know that.
Most felony convictions, such as threats, can warrant firearm possession being revoked.
Still uncomfortable with what I see as glibness over potentially taking a human life. Several others offered the same observation.
I got into a argument with a very bad man. Everybody knew that this man killed three people. He told me, Roberto I'm going to kill you. He smiled and said, "I killed him first." He walked into the bar and shot him in the back of the head. He got sentenced 5 to 10 years but he said I'm still alive. Moral of the stories is don't make threats unless your going to back them up.
Rifle or bow?
That muley? Seems so in the face, at least to me. Antlers seem to have whitetail characteristics. Is he a blend?
We have several admissions here, most likely justifiably so, that some folks can't do what a young lad demonstrated and DID. Maybe Eli is the Levi Morgan of the pistol world...who knows, " no formal training" that's one of my favorites..some of the best that ever lived had no formal training. Some of us would get nowhere with out it. That's the aspect of individualism that our culture wants to forget these days...we are all different in ability level.
Amazing. A 22 yr old , with no formal training , did what 300 fully trained and blessed by the powers that be, couldn't and wouldn't do, in Uvalde TX. Eli showed the ignorant cowards how a dynamic situation should be handled. When he solved a crime in seconds, with excellent judgement and tactical skill, he also embarrassed LEO's all over the country. Maybe his example will turn a few departments around...
"The FBI has acknowledged the important role civilian intervention can play in ending high-profile shooting incidents. FBI’s “Active Shooter Incidents in the United States in 2016 and 2017” report stated,
Armed and unarmed citizens engaged the shooter in 10 incidents. They safely and successfully ended the shootings in eight of those incidents. Their selfless actions likely saved many lives. The enhanced threat posed by active shooters and the swiftness with which active shooter incidents unfold support the importance of preparation by law enforcement officers and citizens alike.
Moreover, research conducted by Economist John R. Lott suggests that the FBI tally of armed citizens stopping active shooters is an undercount.
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20220725/another-good-guy-with-a-gun-stops-the-bad-guy
I think BEG nailed it with his comment that was lost in this thread:
.(When the shit hits the fan) “They say instead, you will fall back to your level of training. “
I generally conceal carry a LCP 380 which is not accurate enough for 40 yards, more like 25 yards.
Just about every other handgun I own, absolutely. On a human size target 100 yards with any of my .44's or .454's would be expected. I practice at 100 yards with milk jugs and do very well off hand.
Matt
So this makes it easy?? Who's the 12 year old girl? I compete with the USPSA Ladies Carry Optics National Champion. She won it when she was 14. She can shoot circles around 99.9999% of the shooters in the world.
Sure she would crush this drill...but she makes everything look easy. Doesn't mean that it is.
This pretty much sums it up. Show me someone that can pass the Dicken Drill (ie, on paper), and I will show you someone who has shot a lot in their life and who has a very, very solid grasp of the fundamentals of pistol shooting. That is not most people that pick up a pistol. For context, the requirement for a concealed carry permit here in LA is having to hit a silhouette target with 12 out of 12 rounds at 2, 3, and 5 yards...and I've seen a lot of people struggle with this.
Now as far as engaging an active shooter, what he did becomes even more incredible. There just aren't many analogues to compare what he did - in the civilian world and in the MIL/LEO world. It is not simply about being a good guy with the gun - it is about the feat and the outcome. Executing at that level under that pressure (the distance, the chaos of people reacting to the shooter, being outgunned, casualties taking place, etc) is unprecedented. Any one of those factors makes it a difficult engagement. He dealt with all of them as effectively as could be done. Simply awesome.
Any analogy; Many of us practice long archery shots. My buddy used to guide on a deer and hog ranch with many clients taking very long bow shots. He said that of the many shots on game over 70y and out to over 100y (appx 30 shots) they had exactly one kill.
Yes, its an informal and anecdotal study to be sure…..but it does indicate many folks overestimate their abilities in a real situation.
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Fiction can be fun to read;-)
The thread was composed as a question. Many of us answered honestly, whether it be confident, unsure, or just plain not able to do it.
Some of us proved we could do it on targets, which answers most of the question.
Others threw in the fact nerves will be involved or the fact you might just want curl up and play dead or run away.
Seems like the folks that quickly shot down the proof of the target shooters have yet to show any type of proof they have what it takes to even be that condescending.
One of those guys is an insanely bored, probably retired, community college instructor that has very clearly stated he cannot shoot despite his short stint in the military nearly half a century ago.
Roughly stated, and I cannot retrieve my PMs on my dang smart phone. The other guy tells me he helped design some of the military firearms and routinely works with such guys in that elite field. My question is , unless he works for Knights Armament, Sig Suaer, Barrett, Colt, Beretta, Bruger and Thomet, and the list goes on, he did not design said rifles. He may have put his inputs in on the panel of requirements of what the military wanted on their next firearm, but that process involves vast numbers of ideas and years to even submit for trials and quite a few firearms manufactures vie for the contracts. Each firearm submitted is different, but with the options the military requires (ambidextrous controls, suppressor capable, etc).
Understanding that an absolute tiny fraction of troops ever fire a pistol in combat situation and cops rarely shoot anyone in their entire careers, I do not think anyone on here should be telling another they can't do it, unless you actually did, regardless of your experience. Especially if you don't know the guy typing or what he is capable of. Refer to the NRA stats again if you like.
Fixed it, and not retired or bored, yet.
And that brief military experience scratched that itch at an early age which answered a lot, something some guys spend the rest of their life struggling with inside because they didn’t have the nutsack back in their youth.
Anyone over 50 probably has the equivalent of a PhD in psychology;-)
Oh, and I loved every minute of the Corps. Taught by real heroes whose actual actions did the talking, and since I never was in combat I still pray that I would not have let those men down.
Wow. Just Wow. Way to piss on every veteran on this site. No, every vet. The same vets, the ones that actually saw combat and say what Eli did was nothing short extraordinary. Yet, because you work in an ER and can ring a gong at 40 yards, no pressure, you asy it wasn't.
John Mason said it best in "The Rock".
