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Point Creep
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
RT 27-Nov-22
Darrell 27-Nov-22
RT 28-Nov-22
DonVathome 29-Nov-22
RT 29-Nov-22
Aspen Ghost 29-Nov-22
Mule Power 29-Nov-22
RT 29-Nov-22
Orion 29-Nov-22
whipranger 29-Nov-22
Mule Power 29-Nov-22
Westy 30-Nov-22
Jethro 30-Nov-22
Deercy 30-Nov-22
RT 03-Dec-22
Beginner 03-Dec-22
Mule Power 04-Dec-22
Cheesehead Mike 04-Dec-22
Jethro 04-Dec-22
Knothead 04-Dec-22
From: RT
27-Nov-22
I've always thought giving out OTC tags for zero points was a major contributing factor to the current situation where people with a lot of points are now having to settle in mid tier units. My personal thoughts are you should have to use one point to secure any initial big game license, including OTC, reissue, and leftovers. I understand some people do not apply and play the points game, but most people do.

If you are issued a license in the draw or otherwise and use your point, you would be eligible for subsequent list B and C tags without using points.

What would you think of this structure?

From: Darrell
27-Nov-22
Problem with that system is it would leave a lot of money off the table for CO. Many would quit buying the mandatory license so they can get their point. Revenue loss at this point would be huge. There have also been years that I bought an OTC tag last minute that I would have skipped if it meant burning my points. Reality is the monster was created many years ago and it has been snowballing down hill ever since.

From: RT
28-Nov-22
No point no hunt and people want to hunt.

From: DonVathome
29-Nov-22
I like that idea. Darrell has a good point but they could change the reg's to make more money. It might cause loss revenue because less guys would hunt. Guys who go every year would go half as much, or maybe go somewhere else.

I do think it is a great idea!

From: RT
29-Nov-22
It would deflate this point bubble over time, soft landing if you will.

From: Aspen Ghost
29-Nov-22
Your idea will reward the people who don't hunt every year (=fund the CPW) by giving them a point towards a premium unit and punish the people who actually buy a permit every year (=fund CPW) by not giving them a point.

So all the draw units will be hunted by people who don't regularly fund the CPW and are using the state as their rich guy playground.

From: Mule Power
29-Nov-22
How to deflate the point creep bubble: Quit selling points. Issue tags to the highest point holders until points are gone.

Then issue non refundable licenses in a straight draw using no points the first year and then reward each unsuccessful applicant with a point IF they opt to pay for one. If you skip a year of applying you lose your points.

No more buying points when not applying for a license and sitting on them to reinflate the bubble.

From: RT
29-Nov-22
Aspen, guys that hunt every year can still hunt every year it will just cost them one point for an OTC, leftover, or reissue license. They would keep the balance of points for a limited unit at a later date if they choose to.

Mule, eliminating points would just be a more blunt way to reach the same objective and would likely be too much out the gate.

From: Orion
29-Nov-22
You should present this to the commission let me know how it goes

From: whipranger
29-Nov-22
Stop all points now. Give point holders 5 years to use and allow banking. After 5 make it 100% random

From: Mule Power
29-Nov-22
We’re dreaming. What we call point creep is profit creep to them. It takes $400 in preference points to draw a license that costs $375. So I wouldn’t have very high hopes of seeing states eliminate that cash cow anytime soon.

I thought about suggesting to the Wyoming Task Force for residents to skip a year of f hunting and sell us all the licenses so we’d all burn our points but I kinda didn’t think they’d support that solution. ;^)

From: Westy
30-Nov-22
Long time listener, first time caller. My question would be how does one get started hunting, or keep hunting when you have 0 points to get started? If you need a point to get a license, you are bumping young hunters out a year upon being eligible, same with those getting started in a state. And then what happens in year 2 when you've used the one point you did have? As a resident, I want to hunt my state every year. Moved to CO from MN in 2017, started hunting here in 2018 but started from scratch at that time. I will never get to the best units, and I am ok with that and use my points accordingly to make the most of my opportunities. However, I want that opportunity each year as most states allow their residents.

I don't have a suggestion at this point, but being a guy with a low point total and kids coming of age soon I don't want to lose out. Applying each year wouldn't change much as people would just apply for the hardest tags and get rewarded or the point. I do like the NM way, maybe a hybrid 70/30 point/random draw until a set time when points are no longer good?

From: Jethro
30-Nov-22
I don't agree that OTC tags contribute to point creep. Being able to buy an OTC tag AND get a point in the same year does. The only way point creep lessens is if supply outnumbers demand. Right now, thats not even close.

From: Deercy
30-Nov-22
Gentlemen, please. I'm a colorado resident with two teenage boys and a wife who occasionally hunts. We burn points occasionally, hunt 2nd choice and reissue tags, have drawn a few out of state tags, and bought a landowner voucher. We have so much opportunity to hunt I pick through all the hunts to best utilize our time. We don't hunt several tags every year. I have a public land spot back in Kentucky that my boys really need to hunt but it just doesn't happen because there are too many other hunts. All while building points for those special hunts. Success is well over 50 percent. We shot 6 animals on 9 tags this year. The systems all have advantages and disadvantages. The fact is that there aren't enough animals to go around and no system will completely fix that. I don't like completely random draw. Wyoming nonresident system is nice because it gives a chance every year with a guaranteed reward for the top point holder. My joy is also in planning and I spend lots of time at it. I have my seasons planned out for the rest of my life it seems like. Point systems allow me to do this. I also put in for random draws to fill out tag gaps. I have a friend in a random draw state who hasn't draw his elk tag for eight years. He's a very unlucky individual. Odds are close to 70 percent. The next guy has draw it for eight years straight and loves it. All in perspective.

From: RT
03-Dec-22
Westy, I suppose given that youth already get a portion of tags there could be exceptions for them.

Jethro, "sort of" agree.

From: Beginner
03-Dec-22
I have over $160 invested in elk tags in Cal. I may never draw in my lifetime. Cal. just keeps racking in the money. When I draw, if I draw, I will never apply again. 21 points and counting.

From: Mule Power
04-Dec-22
$160 for 21 points? That’s better than Wal Mart! Dirt cheap.

04-Dec-22
Yeah if you had 21 points in Arizona your investment would be in the thousands...

From: Jethro
04-Dec-22
I thought the $160 must be a typo and forgot a zero on the end. If not, not sure how you could claim " Cal. just keeps racking in the money"

From: Knothead
04-Dec-22
I like the discussion. States that have 100 preference point systems from what I can tell have the biggest issues. It's hard to recruit new people into hunting when as an adult they probably have no chance of drawing for years. Casual hunters will most likely drop out if they can't draw a tag occasionally. A system like AZ's is the best of all the draw system evils IMO. Considering we have a small population of wildlife species compared to other western states and a large human population, the AZG&F system is pretty fair. They combine the preference point system and random draw. 20% for max point holders(preference) and 80% in random draw. At least you have a chance to draw albeit it may be very small chance. The carrot needs to be attainable.

My biggest complaint with AZG&F is that they have turned making money while not offering anything of real value into an art.

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