Serrated vs Sharp vs Dull Broadhead
Whitetail Deer
I have always believed that an ultrasharp broadhead creates the most blood compared to a serrated or dull head. However, I know several guys I consider good hunters that have chosen serrated heads.
My reason for believing sharp heads bleed better is that trauma triggers clotting and the sharper the blade the less trauma so the critter bleeds more. The less sharp blade (I hate to use the word dull) can tear vessels/arteries.
However, guys that use the serrated heads love the blood trails created by them. How is a serrated head interacting with the vascular system differently than a dull head? I would think it rips and tears at arteries in a similar fashion to a dull blade.
What am I missing in trying to think through this?
my uncle swore by using a duller blade. His rationale was that the head would first stretch the skin in on impact then cut or rip increasing the blood trail. Now Im not saying I advocate it ,but he killed a lot of deer.
The core issue is this...if you had to chose between a dull blade, and a super sharp one, which would you choose? For me it's a no brainer. An edge can NEVER be "too" sharp.
I’m with woods walker, scalpel sharp.
We are over thinking this. Less sharp is never better. Is it materially worse …….debate that if you want but dull does not win any competition over shop
I agree. My point is really not advocating a dull blade. I am simply saying that a lot of people swear by serrated blades and I do not understand how they impact the vascular system differently than a dull blade. I am a big fan of sharp blades. But why do serrated blades work so well? Seems they would work in a similar fashion to a dull blade.
I am not advocating a dull blade. I am simply trying to understand the logic of how a serrated blade works so well. As someone posted last year, the guy that owns Magnus heads only shoots the serrated heads. Why do the serrated heads bleed well?
It seems to me that as long as the serrations are SHARP it will not rip or tear. Why do you use a serrated steak knife for cutting your steak? Now, granted a kitchen steak knife gets very dull over its lifetime of rattling around with other kitchen utensils but we continue to use them. I continually touch up my broadheads but I would find it hard to touch up serrated edges. (Yea, one of those traditional guys). The main issue I have is with solid 3 blade broadheads that are sharpened flat which gives you a 60 deg edge. Not sharp at all. Here's the proof....Sharpen all your hunting knives and kitchen knives to 60 deg and see what kind of fresh hell you invent for your self. I shoot solid 3 blade heads but take them down to as close to 30 deg as I can. Back to the question, I don't see how a sharp serrated blade would rip and tear. I used to shoot the serrated Steel Force but didn't care for the ferrule. I considered them to be a one shot deal. ....Mike
Pretty simple solution. What type of edge do you choose to accomplish different tasks?
What kind of edge do you use to.cut a board, shave your face, push through a piece of material?
I’m of the same mind as you regarding sharpness, trauma, clotting, etc., and to be honest, serrated edges have always struck me as a bit gimmicky. A way to make a Steel head look like Stone.
And a serrated edge strikes me as a real booger to get good and sharp. But knives purpose-built for bread and tomatoes are serrated, so maybe there’s something to the angle of the edge as it passes through whatever it’s cutting?
If you have a straight edge and a serrated edge, equally sharp, I can see how the serrated might have advantages after all, but I don’t think I could KEEP them equally sharp over time.
Serrated steak knives are made for people who don’t know how to sharpen. Even a dull serrated blade will saw thru a steak. Cleanest cut with least resistance comes from a sharp straight edge. Serrations are a gimmick if you ask me - I’ll try them the day I start hunting crusty bread.
For years I shot 2 blade heads only file sharpened. Rough edge but sharp. Worked fine with good penetration and trails.
Switched to a honed edge because they last longer before needing a touch up. Never hunted with a dull edge other than grouse or small game.
I’ve used both serrated and non serrated Magnus heads, and can say that the serrations without a doubt cause large holes and better blood trails. Also not difficult to sharpen at all. I have been using the 3 blade snuffer ss for the last few years, and while I keep hearing they aren’t sharp due to the angle, I have no problem getting them shaving sharp. I’m in the scary sharp is best camp. I’ve found deer react much less to a razor sharp head as well.
Craig
Deer went about 40 yards. This is exactly how she laid. Forgot about a big hole. Look at that blood coming out of her mouth up from her lungs
Deer went about 40 yards. This is exactly how she laid. Forgot about a big hole. Look at that blood coming out of her mouth up from her lungs
You ever go to pick up some broken glass knowing it's wicked sharp and your careful but still get a small cut and that small cut just keeps bleeding. Imo .....that's the kinda sharp your broadheads should be. I shoot 2 edge heads and started using the razors edge paper wheels about 10 years ago and I'm talking forget about shaving sharp it's like worrying about filleting yourself shaving sharp. I've never had shorter tracking jobs since going to a polished scalpel sharp head.
The Magnus stinger is not serrated like a steak knife
I am unaware of any mechanical Broadheads with serrated blades.
Candor, good question. I have shot 2 deer years ago with buzz cuts. Had good blood trails . Also my son shot 2 deer with buzz cuts also and had great blood trails. Now I am showing grim reaper fixed heads with great results, and I sharpen on a lanky at 25 degrees. My question on this is what is the best angle and sharpness ( serated vs. surgical)? First you shoot through Hair, this can really dull an edge, then it goes through bone or muscle or both, then through organs ( easiest to cut) then back through muscle ,bone, and hair. I have noticed that in most situations the exit hole is smaller than entrance. Is that because it is duller? Due to hair and bone? If so, is this why the serrations( and the VPA styles) are working? Since using grim reaper hades (company said they use 440 stainless for blades-) my exit wounds are somewhat similar in size to entrance. Only one in last 10 deer was noticeable smaller. So with that said is the buzz cuts getting better blood trails due to not dulling as much on the hair-bone?
That old adage about using a dull head, came from those who could not sharpen a head. For them, buy replaceable blades. You think I butcher with a dull boning knife? Why do I use the steel? duh
The reason why Scapels are so sharp is because it creates a smooth edge when cutting, in turn a smooth edge closes up easier than a jagged edge. I use Wensleydale woodsman and get them sharp enough, I want them to tear as they go through the lungs,heart etc,.. If I hit a artery or vein I want it to tear and rip , I don't want that wound to close. Serrated edge Broadheads are good and certainly will keep a wound opened longer then a smooth cut.
Don't over think this. Put a sharp broadhead through both lungs and out the other side, and it doesn't matter if it's serrated or straight.
Neither one doesn't make the deer any more dead..
Many years (decades) ago when my brother and I took the Okla Bow Hunters Council Safety class They had a presentation using a a piece of wood with hundreds of rubber bands wrapped around it. They produced two arrows with identical broad heads. One was razor sharp while the second one was somewhat dull. The demonstration showed how the duller blade(s) while cutting some of the rubber bands would slide over others. Possibly doing the same with the deers arteries and blood vessels. Obviously the sharp one cut everything it touched. These weren't serrated broad heads but the same logic would still apply.
The ‘slower to heal’ argument cracks me up.
Put me in the razor sharp category.
There is something about serrated edges that I don’t like for sone reason.
As for 60 degree edges on a 3 blade broad head. Sure they don’t feel that sharp to the touch but they are most definitely sharp.
I feel like as with all things archery which has become so gimmicky, the broadhead market has experienced it in spades. I have read a lot of narratives about how razor sharp serrated blades produce more of a jagged cut that supposedly does not close back together as easily as a clean straight cut does. Kind of similar to making a cut like a meat grinder would leading to more hemorrhaging. I personally believe we bowhunters have way over complicated the whole broadhead issue but I have somewhat of an old school mindset . To me if it’s scalpel sharp, strongly built and of a design that gives it the best chance of great penetration coupled with an arrow that is tuned to near perfection which consistently hits where you aim it then that’s good enough for me.
Lets say one blade is going to just barely touch a artery. Common sense would say a razor sharp blade would cut the artery, while a dull blade could possibly push it (so to speak) aside with out cutting it. Also a razor sharp blade will make a clean cut like a surgeon`s scapel and that is what you want if it is a non lethal hit. So it can heal up quick. A lethal hit is deadly quick. that is why way more deer not recovered live that are wounded with bow verse gun. When the bullet blows up and causes such damage that a deer could live a week or two or more than get infection and die or get taken down by predetors.
This stuff cracks me up. A jagged cut will heal back together and clot faster than a clean razor sharp cut. I proved it to myself quite a few times in the years working construction. I file sharpen my broadheads to where thye will slice my thumb open testing them. Put a sharp broadhead, whether serrated or straight edge where it's supposed to go and you'll have good results.
IME,
The number one factor in more blood on the ground is shot location- namely Low vs high shot.
I shot critters with big cut mechs high and got little blood…and shot critters low with a 2 blade and it was a gusher. …and vice versa.
I have examined wound channels for decades….and a slightly dull blade can push tough arteries aside…..that simply doesnt happen with the chisel serrations of the Buzzcuts.
Drag a knife across an animal a couple times…that hair and hide is a blade dulling machine.
BH design matters…the tapered 2.5 to 1 Cut on Contact designs put zero pressure on the edge helping to keep the edge sharp all the way through the animal. Short wide razor blade heads and over the top mech heads compress the hide….putting the blade edge in contact with blade dulling Hair, Hide and Bone. Minimizing this hair/hide contact is a key factor in blade sharpness. I shot an elk and hog that had been wallowing with a wide ST Mag head and those bruised wound channels were an eye opener. Both double lung shots that took a long time for those critters to die.
Of course anything sharp on an arrow from a modern compound will work….but IME the tapered 2 and 3 blade COC heads work consistently better.
There absolutely is a difference in serrated type broadhead. Skin a muddy coyote with a knife such as a havelon , it dulls in a hurry. But a serrated pelter knife will keep right on cutting . On a broadhead the straight blade Will dull on impact while the serrations do the real damage. Run a dull buzzcut across your palm see what part of the blade cuts your hand
I shot a pig once with the Magnus buzz cut, that was serrated,,,, like you said location it really does not matter.................. my pelter knife is custom made, but believe me its sharp................................ I have a skinner and a flesher,,,,, but that is for a different purpose,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, either way, if you believe in it, use it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Timex could you elaborate on your technique using the razor wheel system for broadheads? I never could get the edge on mine that I could with a kme when I tried using them.
Craig
What makes wounds from serrated blades more difficult to treat compared to normal stab wounds? Ad by Adclickersbot
Profile photo for Dan Hunter Dan Hunter, his opinion on this subject Serrated edges shred and tear the side of the cut more and straight edges leave smooth cuts. The more the flesh is shredded the more dead and damaged tissue there is for the body to repair. Bits of flesh that are partly shredded have poor circulation because the capillaries supplying blood to them are damaged. This makes them not only slower to heal but more likely to die and become material that needs to be removed. Sometimes when the extra shredding is bad the surgeons need to debride the wound and cut damaged material away so there is healthy flesh around the wound for healing.
"The ‘slower to heal’ argument cracks me up"
It might not mean a lot if you put a arrows through both lungs, but it will matter if a bad shot is made.
Rapid blood loss is a rapid drop in blood pressure. That's what really kills them. The cleaner the cut, the better the bloodletting...
The razors edge paper wheels take practice and a knowledge of proper edge angles. I work both sides of blade on the grit wheel until I have a good burr on one side of the blade then move to the rouge wheel and work both sides with very slight pressure untill ya see the burr start coming off then use even less pressure the razors edge is soon as the burr flakes off it looks like a micro thin piece of Christmas tree tinsel. Any further working of the edge after the burr comes off is counter productive. Soon as the burr comes off I finish with a few strokes on a leather strop with pumice stone dust sprinkled on it occasionally. Cardboard also works well as a finishing strop.
A steady hand and a good light are important to see and manipulate the burr until it flakes off
I believe that a jagged sharpness is more devastating and is harder to heal and does bleed more.
I think a more durable edge is also preferable to a scalpel sharp edge. The scalpel will lose its edge long before a durable edge will. Look no further than a piranta VS a good steel pocket knife.
I mean no disrespect to anyone - but stating that a good heart or double lung hit and don't worry about it is naive. If I made perfect shots every time I would probably shoot the cheapest well made broadhead. But that is not reality. Unseen branches, jumping the string, rushed releases...things happen.
A friend shoots German Kinetics and those things are so sharp they cut your eye if you look at them hard. Incredible blood trails. Dang expensive too at $35/head. In the scheme of things I only shoot 3 to 4 deer per year and that is really a negligible cost in the scheme of things.
I am still intrigued with the serrated argument though.
“Dang expensive too at $35/head. “
Or you can kill them just as dead with an Ace Standard at more like $35 a half dozen, last I bought any. Made in USA from steel which has proven to offer a nice balance of edge hold and ease-of-sharpening since the 1930s…
Are there stronger, more durable alternatives? Sure. Will the difference between one good-quality broadhead and another ever be the difference between killing/recovering a deer? Probably not. Especially when you’re not talking about Africa here. I suspect that way more deer are lost to a lack of penetration because of an inefficient broadhead design than any difference between a straight and serrated edge could ever amount to.
I’ll tell ya, though… I split the tip of my index finger on the trailing edge of a Stinger, factory sharp, and that sucker bled (under a compression bandage) for about 3 days ‘til I superglued it shut. I can hardly locate the scar, now, but without a bandage a good tracker probably could have followed me for days.
I remember when I was in FFA when castrating animals we asked why not use razor blades. The ag teacher said that a knife creates a microscopic ragged cut that clots easier where a razor blade doesn’t and doesn’t clot well. Don’t know how that holds up scientifically but it made sense to a 14 year old.
I have killed quite a few critters with both file sharpened edges that would barely shave hair and finely honed edges that you could shave with. Both killed. Interesting observation was that the file sharpened edge maintained its sharpness much better than a honed edge.
I ve used stinger regular and buzzcut 2 blade. Shot 3 deer with each. To be honest didnt see a difference. Now i just shoot the regular ones.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_aEZ2CBabi8 2.20 is the explaination of sharpness
OK, here goes! I'm going to counter the religious zealousness in regards to broadhead sharpness. No, I don't go hunting with "dull" broadheads. Well, maybe according to some of you I do. And I'm sure most of you have killed a lot more animals than I have. I'm of the belief that if my head will shave hair, or, in the case of those 60 degree three blades, if they readily grip a fingernail, they will humanely and quickly kill an animal. An arrow is traveling at fairly high speed and that broadhead is going to do irreparable damage no matter if it is "scalpal" or "scary" sharp or just pretty darn sharp like I use. Never once have I thought I lost an animal because my broadhead wasn't sharp enough. It's always been when I haven't put my broadhead through vital tissue. I have no problem screwing a new Magnus Stinger on without sharpening and going to the woods. I will check them first, but most are just fine out of the package.
Then there is the old rubber band test. Rubbish! Of course you won't cut much with some heads. But put that broadhead through those rubber bands at 180-280 fps and guess what? I bet most of those rubber bands would be cut. Just sayin'. I've cut the living crap out of myself many times on much duller objects at much lower speeds and have bled like a stuck pig.
Yes, we all have a responsibility to hunt with sharp broadheads! But I think some go overboard on the issue. There! I said it! I'll duck and run for cover now! LOL.
Oh, and the serrated heads. I've never used them, but my opinion is that they have some advantages. First by lengthening the cutting surface of the edge. That serrated edge is actually longer than a same length straight edge. Also, those serrations should protect a portion of that edge as it passes through hide and bone, correct? We also have to remember the serrated edge is also razor sharp, same as the straight edge. I can see that there could be advantages.
How do you sharpen a serrated edge? Not the straight part, the serrated part.
WhattheFOC, there are YouTube videos on it. I think what guys do is they take some kind of string, put some sort of polishing compound on it, and run it through the serrations. Kind of like a violin bow.
Thanks, 12 yards - you made a number of good points there about the potential up-side of a good, sharp serrated edge. None of them are consistent with the marketing claims about ripping and tearing and big, ragged holes, but it wouldn’t be the first time that a sexy marketing claim didn’t stand up well to the accepted science on a given subject. ;)
In re: 60° edges… Sharp is Sharp. In principle, the planes of 2 sides of a bevel intersect at some infinitely small point in space, right? That’s why some eye surgeons use knapped scalpels - the stone/glass fractures at basically a molecular level, and steel can’t be made to be that sharp. Of course, those scalpels aren’t crashing through bones, so they can afford to be a bit more fragile….
Now, I’m not advocating the use of “dull” blades, but at some point….. If you’ve made a good hit, that animal isn’t (ordinarily) going to live long enough for clotting to really enter the equation, is it? (Yep. Anomalies occur.)
If you’ve ever teased them apart.. the bigger arteries and arterioles are pretty rubbery- they have to be to hold up to the internal pressure, so “sharp enough to not slide over” is really important. I just don’t know how to quantify “sharp enough”, but the rubber band test isn’t bad. Once you have a hole in one, though…..
Sorry but an edge can be too sharp. That is why butchers use a steel to keep a good working but not ultra sharp edge..an ultra sharp edge gets that way by being ultra thin....ie not much steel so it dulls almost instantly. I thing a good but not ultra sharp is best and by streching before a cut a little it causes more hemmorage because the tissue cannot close shut after the arrow passes through. Shuttle t's were a classic example before they were bought out.
I am responding since my name was mentioned. Our serrated broadheads have a chisel serration which is different from the serration on your knife which is a scalloped seration,. A scalloped serration will not work on a broadhead. Chisel serration slices and cuts and cuts more than any smooth blade edge. It does this by having multiple cutting edges within the same blade. We have tested this thousands of times ourselves and they have been tested by bowhunters world wide. They penetrate like a smooth edge and cut alot more. Also when resharpening you sharpen them just like you do a smooth edge, when you do this, your sharpening the edges of the serration where all the cutting takes place. Thank you
Mike, whats your favorite head?
I have been blessed to take big game animals with every broadhead we make and the 2 which are always in my quiver is the stinger buzzcut 125 gr 4 blade and the black hornet ser razor 125 gr 4 blade.
I guess you could say that was a pretty decent blood trail!
Hell of a nice shot, for sure!
I’ll be a Stinger would’ve been just as good ;)
Mike I shoot a #40 longbow and use your 2 blade 150 stinger and buzzcuts. Would you use a 2 blade hornet out of a trad bow?
I want a multi blade head that easily shaves hair, even after passing through a deer. I can get my VPA and Cutthroat 3 blades sharp enough you’d shave your face with them. When looking at push force data, a less sharp head takes less energy to move organs/arteries out of the way than to penetrate through them. I want to go through them.
IMO it is impossible to get a head too sharp. It is possible to have the edge too thin with the bevel being at too narrow of an angle which would cause the edge to fail. The type and quality of the steel at the appropriate hardness for that steel are very important for edge retention.
I have no experience with serrated so not qualified to comment.
On sharpness, the sharper the better without question. For me.....they have to be able to shave the hair off my arm.The only broad heads I do not sharpen right out of the package are slick tricks.
Otherwise I hone to shave hair.
Mark
I like goyt’s perspective; that’s the one thing about the Rada that I don’t love; seems like the resulting “hollow ground” edge might roll over if the head was not engineered with the expectation that hollow ground would be a consideration.
Mike the Black Hornet Serazor 125 is one of my favorites, but they are getting hard to find.
Black Hornet is the best broadhead going. There are different kinds of sharpening and perform certain duties, you can sharpen an edge that feels sharp but has little durability when used. If you develop a wire edge as soon as it hits something, it's useless. One reason "file sharpening" can be just as effective as all these other forms of sharpening.
You don't sharpen your lawn mower blade like your knife....each has their own purpose.
Thats a long blood trail in Mikes pic….
Ive been shooting 2 blades for about 15 years now- inc the Buzzcuts- and its rare for an animal to go that far. They typically don’t feel it…or know what happened…stand there looking around and fall over.
Some critters that made me as I shot or heard the bow have gone further- sure…but I would say 60% of the critters don’t go 20y.
I like the Buzzcuts…but IMO a good blood trail is more a function of a low hit than the BH.
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Sharp is always better, Some states serrated are illegal.
If sharp works better for my axe, butcher cleaver that go through hard objects then I can say the same for my broadhead. I have finished off deer from car collisions with my hands or pushed a sharp head through a carcass as a demonstration for teaching classes. A sharp head will always do the job.
The only time I use a serrated blade is on foam or bread. Not on meat of any kind.
Some people way overthink things. Like the whole “push force data” thing.
The data is perfectly useful….if your arrow is travelling at 6 inches per second. I can push a water ballon out of the way with a broadhead, yet if I go 12 fps it will pop. No organ is being pushed out of the way by even a halfways sharp head at 150fps.
Shampoo is better…..
No, conditioner is better…..
Shampoo is better……
No, Conditioner is better.
Shampoo and conditioner generally have opposite intentions.
I don’t use shampoo or conditioner. Don’t have any hair. I use bars of soap. Lol That means I use single bevel broadheads.
Black Hornet Ser Razor 4 blade broadhead
Black Hornet Ser Razor 4 blade broadhead
First of all Our chisel serrated broadheads are legal in all 50 states, we have had the stinger buzzcut in our lineup since 2005 and they are not illegal, they are not a barbed head they are a chisel serration. I shot a recurve for 30 years before going to a compound and i always shot 4 blade as long as i was shooting 50 lbs or higher. If you shoot less than 50 lbs out of a traditional broadhead i would definitely shoot the buzzcut or the two blade black hornet ser razor. If you ever have any issues finding our broadheads you can email
[email protected] and we can give you a dealer who can ship right away. Thank you
Show me a jugular shot without telling me it's a jugular shot ;)
If I use a Magnus will it always melt the snow like that? Barely any snow melts with my broadheads. :)
Its a testament to the effectiveness of an arrow shot from a bow that all of these heads work.
VIVA the bow and arrow!
I remember when I was in FFA when castrating animals we asked why not use razor blades. The ag teacher said that a knife creates a microscopic ragged cut that clots easier where a razor blade doesn’t and doesn’t clot well. Don’t know how that holds up scientifically but it made sense to a 14 year old.
You lost me at castrating!
