How’s that Green Thing Going?
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
'Ike' (Phone) 07-Jan-23
Phil Magistro 07-Jan-23
scentman 07-Jan-23
Rgiesey 07-Jan-23
Dale06 07-Jan-23
WhattheFOC 07-Jan-23
Woods Walker 07-Jan-23
Beendare 07-Jan-23
Woods Walker 07-Jan-23
LUNG$HOT 07-Jan-23
fdp 07-Jan-23
Bigdog 21 07-Jan-23
Hackbow 07-Jan-23
Pete In Fairbanks 08-Jan-23
BackwoodsVT 08-Jan-23
fdp 08-Jan-23
Catscratch 08-Jan-23
Phil Magistro 08-Jan-23
Woods Walker 08-Jan-23
timex 08-Jan-23
Grey Ghost 08-Jan-23
HDE 08-Jan-23
Phil Magistro 08-Jan-23
Phil Magistro 08-Jan-23
Jaquomo 08-Jan-23
70lbDraw 08-Jan-23
70lbDraw 08-Jan-23
azelkhntr 08-Jan-23
Bigdog 21 08-Jan-23
12yards 08-Jan-23
Shuteye 08-Jan-23
APauls 08-Jan-23
HDE 08-Jan-23
BC 08-Jan-23
timex 08-Jan-23
Orion 08-Jan-23
2Wild Bill 08-Jan-23
Phil Magistro 08-Jan-23
midwest 08-Jan-23
2Wild Bill 08-Jan-23
Phil Magistro 08-Jan-23
12yards 08-Jan-23
Phil Magistro 08-Jan-23
timex 08-Jan-23
12yards 08-Jan-23
TGbow 08-Jan-23
KSflatlander 08-Jan-23
scentman 08-Jan-23
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Jim McNamara 08-Jan-23
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azelkhntr 25-Jan-23
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timex 30-Jan-23
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shade mt 31-Jan-23
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WV Mountaineer 31-Jan-23
07-Jan-23

'Ike' (Phone)'s Link
Guess it should read climate change…Cleaning the state out with the Pacific Storm Train!!! Kind of weird that they can go back into history and see it’s happened before, things that make you go hmmm!

AccuWeather experts say an additional 4-8 inches of rain can fall on the coastal ranges, as well as the foothills of the Sierra Nevada, with an AccuWeather Local StormMax™ of 14 inches. In San Francisco, 2-4 inches of rain is expected. Since Dec. 26, 2022, the downtown area has picked up more than 11 inches of rainfall -- a staggering 628% higher than the normal precipitation for that time frame of 1.76 inches. During this stretch, the city recorded its wettest 10-day period since the Civil War era.

07-Jan-23
Yep. Climate change is impacting a lot of people in ways they usually don't expect. Changes in weather patterns, which may be short-term or may not, are introducing new issues that seem to be growing in intensity. Wildfires, droughts, intense storms, flooding....it seems that every year more areas across the US and world are encountering 100 year storms that are happening more frequently than 100 years.

From: scentman
07-Jan-23
Climate change created the Great Lakes and all kinds of other land changes... enjoy it while you can... dust in the wind my brothers.

From: Rgiesey
07-Jan-23
That’s amazing!

From: Dale06
07-Jan-23
The climate has been changing, either cooling or warming, for millions of years. I’m thinking it will continue to do so. Learn to live with it.

From: WhattheFOC
07-Jan-23
Wettest 10 day period since the civil war era? Yikes. Does this mean there was a wetter 10 day period before climate change?

From: Woods Walker
07-Jan-23
When the climate STOPS changing, then you really should worry. Oh wait.....it won't matter because our universe will no longer exist.

From: Beendare
07-Jan-23
My bet;

The massive forest fires that had smoke covering the entire western states for many months has more effect on the climate than every car in CA. How many millions of tons of smoke was that?

Fires caused by environmentalist Climate weinies restricting the cutting of anything in Ca forests. My Calfire buddy says there are whole rooms at the capitol devoted to the paperwork from lawsuits by environmentalists to shut down ANY logging in Ca. Trees are a renewable resource…but environmentalists dont get that. The unintended consequences of hack environmentalists calling the shots is killing all of us.

From: Woods Walker
07-Jan-23
X2 Been.

From: LUNG$HOT
07-Jan-23
Global warming. Seems like it’s been happening since the “ice age”. Well before the invention of the combustion engine. Can you imagine the storms and geological events it took to form the mountains, valleys, craters, lakes, arches etc… But I’m sure most of it was caused by cow farts and cars.

From: fdp
07-Jan-23
I don't think most folks ever denied the historical evidence of global warming/change being a thing. The point has always been that based on the historic record the warming/change seems to be happening at an accelerated rabe possibly caused by pollution, and some human habits. And logically that is certainly a possibilty.

Whatever may or may not cause it will have a considerably more drastic affect on mankind than it did 1,000 or whatever years ago. That's an undeniable reality.

From: Bigdog 21
07-Jan-23
Earth doing its thing and I thought I read we are coming off are 5th ice age.. been warming for the last 11,000 years.

From: Hackbow
07-Jan-23

Hackbow's embedded Photo
Hackbow's embedded Photo
LOL.... always fun to see some of those who buy what the fear peddlers are selling show up to warn us all of the impending doom. Since the China Flu became just another flu, most of them have been hibernating.

Extreme weather events have happened since Creation or Big Bang (you choose). Never understood there being a market for adult diapers until this crowd found their 'voice'.

08-Jan-23
What Hackbow said!

08-Jan-23
The human ego allows us to think we are important in the universe. Think how we impact other planets, or even the Sun.

Without the Sun we would be dead in 2 weeks. Would we cause that? No.

The Sun reverses its poles every 11 years.

It will eventually have a Solar Flare event large enough to shut down all modern technology. If the one that happened in the 1800s happened now it would be catastrophic to modern man.

The Earth's magnetic field prevents widespread death from solar radiation, the sheer electromagnetic power of a flare could shutdown power grids, internet connections and other communication devices on Earth, resulting in chaos and riots, most people would not be self sufficient enough to survive.

perhaps someone should start making a fortune by selling the fear of us damaging the Sun. Like Gore and all the Hollywood climate alarmists do for the Earth.

Or read a book occasionally and realize that all planets are in one of 2 conditions

They are decaying, or have already died. The speed of that is not relevant

From: BackwoodsVT
08-Jan-23
Genesis 8:22 "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."

From: fdp
08-Jan-23
Who is warning us of impending doom?

From: Catscratch
08-Jan-23
fdp - The most obvious entity warning us of climate doom (and that has the highest affect on our livelihoods) is the government.

08-Jan-23
A large portion of Biden’s trillion dollar spending sprees included language centered on climate change. So there is that.

08-Jan-23
Nobody is. That type of stereotyping an redirecting a conversation to belittle anyone's opinion a favorite tactic of more than a few folks here. If you look hard enough you can find some documentation to support any position no matter how far fetched. But in the case of climate change or healthcare there are undeniable facts present that some choose to ignore largely because of their political beliefs. Yes there are and likely always have been cycles to weather but those cycles have become more pronounced in our lifetime.

I'm not saying the world will end in ten years at all but I am saying that to ignore that there are glaciers retreating faster than at any point in history, the ocean temperature is rising leading to more intense storms, droughts are becoming more severe and pervasive, is to ignore what is right before your eyes and is undeniable. And this is happening across the world, not just in the US.

From: Woods Walker
08-Jan-23
No Phil, it's not because of my political beliefs. It's because I can only be LIED to so many times before my BS meter kicks in and shuts down ANYTHING that I'm being told by the liars. And liar #1 is sadly our government and people/organizations associated with them. And they earned it. They may be telling me things that are true, but their credibilty is SO damaged that they may as well not say anything because I'm not buying it.

From: timex
08-Jan-23

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
I have mixed feelings on the subject. I live on the VA coast. Places I hunted 20 years ago in leather boots you now need knee high rubber boots and on a full moon hip waders. Now that said. Look at the pic, the blue dot is my house. If you dig down 10' you'll hit a clam shell bed, now look roughly 100 miles to the west to Richmond , there's clam shell beds in Richmond. So at some point in the life of our planet the sea level has changed drastically.

About 10 minutes in a closed small garage with a vehicle running is about all a person can stand, now consider 10s of millions of vehicles running every second of every day in this world. Then on the other hand I'd imagine that one mega volcano blowing it's top could put more carbon in the atmosphere in a day than us humans have in 100 years.

Without a doubt things are changing quickly. How much of that change is directly related to humans using fossil fuels for energy ???

08-Jan-23
“undeniable facts present that some choose to ignore”.

Really, Undeniable?

So if it’s a drought, bad.

Too much rain, bad

Too much snow, bad

Too hot, bad

Too cold, bad.

What exactly is perfect weather for humans.

This 100 year discussion is another misdirection.

So because last week, a certain small area of the planet had a once in 100 year weather event means that humans caused it?

Or could it be as simple as 1000 years ago it wasn’t measured.

When the continental drift was going on. That was definitely a period of climate change.

The arrogance of humans. To think we can dictate the planet give us a perfect climate on the entire globe at all times.

08-Jan-23
Timex, I have found Nautilus fossils at 7000 ft in Colorado

Nautilus are not shallow fresh water creatures.

From: Grey Ghost
08-Jan-23
After the past few drought years, I'm just happy to see snowpack in the high country back to normal levels. We needed it.

Matt

From: HDE
08-Jan-23
The two biggest hoax champions are #1 gov't and #2 academia (this includes "scientists" that can't find a job that doesn't thrive on grant money).

If either of these two are in concert with one another, it's a lie.

08-Jan-23
HDE, I’m curious to understand your education and experience to make the claim that government and academia are the biggest liars. There are tens of thousands of people with no agenda that dedicate their lives to researching and interpreting data. They don’t make up the data. And with a brush of your hand you decide that their work and lives are meaningless because they don’t follow your idea of “the truth”?

08-Jan-23
Altitude, nice try twisting my words. I didn’t say anything was bad. That would be an opinion. I presented specific changes that have been taking place and recorded.

But my opinion is that if you are a farmer in the west that can no longer afford to keep the family farm because there is limited water due to droughts, that would be bad. If you are a farmer along the Mississippi that had their crops ruined, causing financial distress more in more than one recent year, that would be bad. If you live in an area where wildfires took your home and possessions that would be bad.

Too much snow, in my opinion, isn’t bad. Depending on where you live it can be anywhere from a nuisance to a blessing.

From: Jaquomo
08-Jan-23
The goal is to do what has never happened before in the history of the earth - to stop the climate from changing so it's more convenient for human habitation as we know it today, and prevent any future climate change.

Good luck with that.

From: 70lbDraw
08-Jan-23
Until the entire population of the earth is on board to reduce greenhouse emissions, it’s a moot point.

In the meantime; every time I have to replace expensive emission control components on my truck, I feel like I’ve made a big contribution to fixing the problem.

The world is ever changing. Unfortunately there are too many people that buy into the government’s “chicken little” scam.

It’s no different than the war on drugs that started 50 years ago. Look around yourself and tell me how that has been going!

Follow the money…science is overrated! Didn’t any of you learn anything during COVID?

From: 70lbDraw
08-Jan-23
DP

From: azelkhntr
08-Jan-23
On the plus side, the streets of San Fran haven't been this clean in decades LOL! As far as the climate goes, we are now entering a new Solar Maximum which means more sunspots and Coronal Mass Ejections. The solar system has now entered the Galactic Current Sheet which is bad news for the Sun and us. Also, we are facing an immanent Magnetic Pole reversal which hasn't happened in 700K years. No one knows for sure what is going to happen to Earth but all the hypotheses are grim. The last time we went through the GCS it coincided with and may have brought about the Younger-Dryas period. A theory I subscribe to is that the GCS brings so much dust with it that countless tons of it are accreted onto the suns surface. The accumulation of dust will cause the sun to dim and then micro-nova and that will be very bad for us and the SS. Humanity is looking at a rt. hook followed by a left cross then a rt. uppercut.

From: Bigdog 21
08-Jan-23
Going green has a big push from the UN. We Americans are being pushed hard. Are leaders want to be the leader in going green. The first country to do so. He Biden stood in front of the UN meetings and told them America will be a leader. More company's in America will be forced out ( by restrictions) to go somewhere else. But it's still ok to send satellites, space crafts, up in space on a regular based. And as long as china's making it it's ok.

From: 12yards
08-Jan-23
Weather is not getting more violent. The media and activist scientist will keep saying it is. But look at the data and it tells a different story. Fewer hurricanes and less severe hurricanes, fewer and weaker tornadoes, less burn acreage, no increasing trend in sea level rise, etc. Temperature data adjusted to increase warming. There's an agenda associated with this whole deal driven by leftist globalists. It's all about wealth redistribution and an eventual war on capitalism. I don't deny humans have impacted the climate but no way is it a crisis.

From: Shuteye
08-Jan-23
There is one thing government wants is more money and more control Climate change is BS. The real experts have been silenced by Government. It is just like the pandemic shots. Some scientist say you are 500% more likely to die from heart problems than without the shot. This information came from the vaccine producers studies that we are not allowed to see. My DNA is what I was born with and I intend for it to stay that way.

From: APauls
08-Jan-23
Change from what? What’s the baseline and what’s the argument for it being the baseline?

From: HDE
08-Jan-23
@ Phil Magistro - if you have to ask, you clearly don't understand. The tens of thousands of people you speak of are merely reposting and rephrasing old data from records in antiquity and putting their own "theories" on it from current observation. They forget to tell everyone what they're pontificating has also already happened.

As far as credibility goes, an example is the crackpot Bill Nye that speaks to the Ice Ages encompassing 600,000 years. What this fool doesn't consider is that each layer doesn't describe a freeze/thaw cycle denoting years, but are merely layer build up from strom events.

From: BC
08-Jan-23
From what I understand even if the US goes all in green, it won't reduce the effect on the environment as all the other industrial and emerging countries will continue business as usual. They do not hamstring their economies with all these self imposed restrictions.

From: timex
08-Jan-23
12 yards,,,,I'm no scientist, but I live on the coast and areas that only flooded during major storms now flood on nothing more than a full moon high tide. Your no sea level rise comment couldn't be more wrong, or at least on the VA coast where I've lived the last 22 years it's risen or perhaps the land is sinking.

From: Orion
08-Jan-23
I'm just wondering where all the heroin needles and homeless excrement got washed too? I'm guessing the ocean but doubt we hear anything about that.

From: 2Wild Bill
08-Jan-23
Phil,

That type of stereotyping an(d) redirecting a conversation to belittle anyone's opinion (is)a favorite tactic of more than a few folks here(you're included). If you look hard enough you can find some documentation to support any position no matter how far fetched(which some people call undeniable facts as we will soon witness).

But in the case of climate change or healthcare( or any other pet issue)there are undeniable facts(here's where the true definition of science is needed and not the wonky definition prevelant and in use by leftists) present that some( insert here the name of anyone you choose to belittle) choose to ignore largely because of their political beliefs.

:) You're welcome.

08-Jan-23
Bill, I am not belittling. I am pointing out a truth. Just because someone finds documentation to support a position, that does not mean that documentation can be called undeniable. I spent a career in healthcare. I have seen numerous people take items either out of context or misrepresent the information given to support a position that is contrary to what is widely accepted by the significant majority of scientists or healthcare workers.

Plain and simple, there are certain facts regarding climate and healthcare. You may disagree with them but that doesn't change the facts. It only changes your beliefs or understanding of the facts.

It interesting that you say the wonky definition of science is held by leftists. Clearly the rightists have a definition of science and it could be called wonky as well. But lets see if we can agree on the definition.

Regardless of the source defining science certain characteristics are present - study, (objective) observation, experimentation, measurement and data. Science is a body of knowledge and a process of acquiring new knowledge. Science does not offer an endpoint, just data at a certain point in time.

Is there anything in that definition that you disagree with?

From: midwest
08-Jan-23
I thought we were done with the political bs.

From: 2Wild Bill
08-Jan-23
Phil,

"And with a brush of your hand", as do you also.

"Regardless of the source defining science ", there you go again. How can you say regardless? Are you naive or innocent?

" There are tens of thousands of people with no agenda that dedicate their lives to researching and interpreting data. " And therefore the tens of thousands of people with an agenda have no influence or simply don't count?

Doesn't "green science" expound an endpoint? You bet your sweet bippy it does.

08-Jan-23
I am neither naive or innocent. I said “regardless of the source defining science…” because no matter what source you choose, the definition is the same. Science is what science is.

Which part of the definition do you disagree with?

Where did you get green science? I never mentioned that.

From: 12yards
08-Jan-23
Timex, I didn't say it wasn't rising. I said there is no increasing trend in sea level rise. Sea level has been rising at the same rate since long before CO2 was being pumped into the atmosphere by man.

08-Jan-23
Not quite. But I’ll let you do the research.

We aren’t talking feet or even inches per year in the places it is rising (because it doesn’t rise or drop the same everywhere) but there has been an increase since 1993 of about double the trend over the previous hundred-some years.

From: timex
08-Jan-23

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
12 yards,,,I'm no scientist, what I do know is that "22 short years ago" I could hunt on the coast where I live wearing the boots on the left and not get wet feet.

These days the boots on the right aren't tall enough sometimes.

That's some good old fashioned real time country boy logic.

Not some numbers on a graph conducted by some university somewhere. Now your free to believe whatever you want.

And I'll continue to know what I know.

From: 12yards
08-Jan-23
Timex, I'm not telling you you're not experiencing what you are experiencing. I'm telling you it's likely you would observe the same thing whether man produced an ounce of CO2 or what we have produced in reality. Literally every tide gage on earth has shown no increasing trend in sea level. It is increasing, but not any faster than any time in recorded history. So yes, sea level is rising by you, and your land may also be sinking, but no faster or slower than any time in recorded history.

From: TGbow
08-Jan-23
I remember in the early 80s, every magazine I picked up mentioned the coming "Ice Age". So which is it? The earth has always gone thru climatic changes. This whole green thing is just a bunch of crap that is being used for control. Not only control but a lit of folks will make a lot of money off of this mess. Just like Chenney had good reason to engage in in war in the Middle East. Follow the money

From: KSflatlander
08-Jan-23
We have physics history being made here fellas!!!! 12 Yards has disproven the laws of thermodynamics. There is no transfer of energy with increased CO2 in the atmosphere…Nicolas Carnot was so wrong.

12 Yards- you’re going to make a mint rewriting all those physics books.

From: scentman
08-Jan-23
Timex, Climate change or no climate change... you need a new pair of hunting boots! ;0)

From: KSflatlander
08-Jan-23
Great post scentman LMAO

From: SBC
08-Jan-23
I'm curious as to all the Christian believers asserting the change in climate is cyclical over miliions or hundreds of thousands of years. This position seems to be unbiblical. As I understand the bible, and according to biblical scholars, creation occurred 8000 years ago,.. max.

Not trying to start a faith debate, or debunk anyones belief's, just asking how Christians who take this position can resolve this in their minds. You either believe God's word, or you don't.

As a Christian, my belief is that the extremes in the weather patterns seem to be getting worse over the past century or so in the 8000 years of existence of this world.

From: SBC
08-Jan-23

SBC's embedded Photo
SBC's embedded Photo

From: Jim McNamara
08-Jan-23
I think this world will be here just as long as it takes for God to accomplish His plans. We can not save the planet, just live here for a short time and die. Man's foolishness is apparent more and more every day.

From: Ambush
08-Jan-23
Not sure about climate change, I just wish hell would freeze over so sito can finally enjoy a cornfed deer steak :)

09-Jan-23

Altitude Sickness 's embedded Photo
Altitude Sickness 's embedded Photo
Timex, I don’t doubt your local knowledge But man has impacted the physical earth more than the weather. Building roads bridges across water ways. Docks, piers, buoys, all displace and Move move water into new areas

Megalodon became extinct millions of years ago, when the planet entered a phase of global cooling. when the last Megalodon died is not known, but new evidence suggests that it was at least 3.6 million years ago.

I have found Megalodon and Mastodon teeth at the bottom of South Carolina rivers 20 miles up stream from the ocean

Both laying only feet from each other. Both extinct millions of years ago.

One a land creature and the other deep ocean

From: shade mt
09-Jan-23
I know one undeniable fact......people are their own worst enemies, and to dumb to know it. we drink till we ruin our livers... smoke till we ruin our lungs.... eat ourselves to obesity... exercise little....and become weak. take rather than give... lie, cheat and steal.... ruin family structure and the home... and educate ourselves to the point of stupidity, lacking common sense... create panic, shut everything down, because of covid. elect officials, that lack moral backbone, and struggle to put a understandable sentence together. and then complain about inflation...

does the climate change?...of course, been changing for thousands of years.

but you have to stop and consider, all this , and the people that are behind it....... blind leading the blind...

From: Rocky D
09-Jan-23
Could you scientist tell me when man started needing to wear clothes?

The earliest records show about 300,000 years ago but the records show that man didn’t build houses for over 280, 000 years.

So, my real question is when did man evolve to where here couldn’t withstand the elements?

When did evolution support the evolving of a weaker species that couldn’t withstand the elements?

Some of this math and science doesn’t seem to match man’s algorithm…

This is just a question that I have been struggling with for a while and have been doing some research on without coming up with any sufficient answers on it.

From: shade mt
09-Jan-23
man is a real genius...we think we know it all, got it all figured out. We know how old the world is, and how it was formed, yessir, everything so intricate, so complex, from the smallest living organism to the greatest beast of the earth, all the different animals and plants reproducing after its kind and uniquely different even among those of the same species.....yessir, all come from some kind of explosion or slop......brilliant.

ah yes then the origin of man...came from monkeys we did. funny........man has evolved to the point of flying through space, technology, and great invention, but the monkey?.....well he's still a monkey.

so brilliant we are inventing computer technology, and weapons capable of destroying the earth.......yet we can't create one single grass seed, from scratch, give it life,make it grow, and reproduce....unless we start out with the life already provided.

brilliant we are......or we think.

time will tell, will it not. one thing is certain about the evolutionist.......you better darn sure hope your right, because the other option if ignored....comes with terrible consequence.

frankly, i'm not willing to chance that, and looking around, and seeing the messes we create....its pretty obvious we are not all we're cracked up to be.

If i go through my whole life believing in God, and in the end find out i was wrong....it cost me nothing, for i would have lived a good life...

But if i go through my whole life, not believing in God, and in the end, find out he exist....it would have costed me everything.......your choice.

From: timex
09-Jan-23
I do not view climate change through a scientific, biblical or political filter. I view through basic everyday life. For instance the cold snap during Xmas. Well for those unaware it's winter and supposed to be cold like when I was young and winter came and stayed cold all winter. To me the cold at Xmas is normal. What's not normal was the 70 degrees last wed & Thurs. Tee shirts & shorts in Jan , is not normal. As a sportsman I'm in nature a lot and if you haven't noticed things are changing quickly at least in VA where I live. If ya don't see it your either very young or don't want to see it.

It's what we do or don't do or believe or don't believe that separates us and an extreme level by some.

I'd guess that 80+% of members of this forum view it through a political lens as in ok yes things are changing but the government needs to mind it's own business.

Then there's the deniers who don't see any change whatsoever.

And myself could be considered a realist. I see the change, acknowledge & accept it but also realize there's not much can be done about it.

Biblical ,,,,not even going there. I agree with shade in that is humans are are own worst enemy.

From: Jeff Durnell
09-Jan-23
It's the perfect scam then, right? People sign on out of fear, and theres no way to prove or disprove it. How convenient. Well it's just way too far fetched for me, so much so, that I'm not about to be afraid of what happens after I die (nothing). And the whole 'insurance policy' reason for that particular belief sounds insincere and unconvincing. Jes sayin.

The Earth is only 6000 years old? Close. Only 4.5+ billion years off. And those same professors want us to believe what now exactly? Yeah. Ok.

From: Rocky D
09-Jan-23
I just want them to tell me when man had to have clothes to keep warm! I would think that there would be landmark discoveries that would be provided during this transitional period!

Why don’t we have the clothes age? That seems pretty significant to me!

I see more remains of mammoths than I do of early man. I see a lot more drawings than actual remains!

I still wonder about how the pyramids were built and the Garden of Eden was where man first began.

Somewhere man made some huge technological leaps that evolution doesn’t adequately address.

From: 12yards
09-Jan-23
Ksflatlander, are you saying that only warming can occur with increasing CO2 levels? If so, earth's climate has regularly defied the laws of physics as the earth has cooled at much higher CO2 levels than we currently have.

From: Supernaut
09-Jan-23
I'm just glad to have survived the "Acid Rain" that was surely going to wipe us out in the early 80's.

From: Woods Walker
09-Jan-23
Or according to Paul Ehrlich that we are still here at all!!! And he would know, as he has a BS, an MS, and a PHD! (That's B ull S h*t, M ore S h*t, P iled H igher and D eeper!)

From: BillObeid
09-Jan-23
Isn’t the bottom line :

1) that government fears a change in climate that would affect America’s ability to grow crops….and thus destroy the global economy. If our economy shrinks… big government is going to shrivel up pretty quickly.

2) and that our government fears a change in climate …would possibly stretch the ability of the US government to continue to finance every citizen that is affected by a natural disaster created by these climate changes?

Truth be told….. only a very small number of Americans are self sufficient or could fend for themselves in dire times.

Every natural disaster this country responds to exemplifies just how helpless the majority of Americans are when the weather causes havoc .

If there’s a huge climate change it won’t matter much whether it was natural or man made.

Pretty sure the government is aware they aren’t going to be able to solve all the problems a large climate change creates.

From: SBC
09-Jan-23

SBC's embedded Photo
SBC's embedded Photo
TTT,So my question doesn't get buried. I am posting this question to the believers on this forum because it is part of the mystery I haven't got an answer for:

I'm curious as to all the Christian believers asserting the change in climate is cyclical over miliions or hundreds of thousands of years. This position seems to be unbiblical. As I understand the bible, and according to biblical scholars, creation occurred 8000 years ago,.. max. Not trying to start a faith debate, or debunk anyones belief's, just asking how Christians who take this position can resolve this in their minds. You either believe God's word, or you don't.

As a Christian, my belief is that the extremes in the weather patterns seem to be getting worse over the past century or so in the 8000 years of existence of this world.

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-23
“If so, earth's climate has regularly defied the laws of physics as the earth has cooled at much higher CO2 levels than we currently have.”

Sure has when the CO2 was associated with natural volcanic eruptions. Turns out enough dust and volcanic ash to block out the suns rays. In addition, CO2 is not the only single variable in the atmosphere controlling the trapping of heat.

Flip the question. What happens when you increase CO2 and other greenhouse gases in the atmosphere? Or how do we have an atmosphere and how does the earth stay warm? Why doesn’t the heat escape into space like on Mars?

There will be resulting reaction from changing earth’s atmosphere composition. No different when volcanoes erupted or meteors wiped out most vertebrate life on earth. You want to debate how much that change will be…that’s valid. You want to deny any change related to 8 billion of a species that can manipulate its environment like no other…c’mon.

I’ll use shade mt logic. You prepare and mitigate for increased global temps and you were wrong nothing much happens. You don’t try to prepare and mitigate it’s going to hurt for your grandchildren…especially if they plan to inherit that beach house.

Don’t get your knowledge about climate change from me or any other poster (especially Hackbow, 12 Yards, or Woods Walker; science deniers). Go talk to or read the work of the 90% of climate scientists that have the data and know how real it is. Also talk to the 10% of dissenting SCIENTISTS. I think you’ll find out they are unsure about the details but know the earth is warming due to 8 billion human inhabitants.

But just because 9 out of 10 dentists say you should brush your teeth…don’t just take at face value the 1 dentists doesn’t recommend brushing your teeth. You should probably also listen to the 9 who do recommend it.

SBC- do you also believe the earth is static and the sun moves around the earth? It says that in the Bible and we know that isn’t true. There are many more. God works in mysterious ways. He gave us a complex brain and the ability to ask “why?” about the physical world. I plan to use Gods gift of science everyday to further understand it.

From: Hackbow
09-Jan-23
"As a Christian, my belief is that the extremes in the weather patterns seem to be getting worse over the past century or so in the 8000 years of existence of this world."

SBC, not sure how your beliefs "As a Christian,..." are relevant to your perception of worsening weather, weather patterns, or changing climate. You do not know what weather events occurred pre-modern history. A hurricane, or series of hurricanes, could have wiped out most islanders in any given Caribbean area 300 yrs ago and not be known today. Extreme hot or cold weather events could have happened anywhere in the world for short periods of time and not be recorded on stone tablets or cave walls because, wait for it......it was weather.

The only way our "scientists" of today can create a backward-looking picture of climate is to have FAITH their interpretation of sediment, growth rings, visual erosion evidence, archaeology finds, population estimations, etc. is SO accurate that they can speak with certainty about that picture. However, the delta between truth and scientific theory grows geometrically with each minor incorrect conclusion multiplied over time.

I have no issue with "scientists" painting pictures based upon current understanding. I have HUGE issues with power hungry overlord wannabes using those fictional pictures to create public policy.

WRT how Christians resolve this matter in their minds, I cannot speak for others. This Christian doesn't put any bearing on the actual factual earth age having anything to do with my belief that Jesus Christ is who He claims to be. Since the understanding of the earth's age is incomplete at this point in both the "science" and Biblical camps, I'll just sit it out and not worry about it.

"You either believe God's word, or you don't.'

I've looked in the Bible and have yet to find any scripture stating the actual factual age of the earth. Failed men's assumptive interpretation of what the Bible says does not equate to God's Word.

From: Hackbow
09-Jan-23

From: TRnCO
09-Jan-23
can someone do some home work and go back 10, 20, 30 years and find a scientist that predicted something that they got right about what our current climate would be like today? Surely there's a scientist somewhere that got it right? Or how about looking back at AlGore's movie and see how many predictions he got right?

My guess is a guy could look back and find more that got it wrong, but after all, they're just looking at models that a computer spits out.

From: SBC
09-Jan-23
Thank you Hackbow, your explanation led me to a better understanding.

09-Jan-23
The climate has always been changing, I promise that will continue. Humans no doubt play a minor role, we should do what we can (within reason) to help mitigate our role. Birth control and legal euthanasia to stop human expansion would be great first steps.

From: bowhunt
09-Jan-23
Well TRnCO, you have to remember science evolves and changes with new data.

That is of course unless the science is settled by an overwhelming number of scientists on any given subject with peer reviewed studies, proving the settled science.

However, if the settled science happens to be wrong, they weren’t wrong. They were just following the science and interpreting the new data.

At this point the science is once again settled by an overwhelming percentage of scientists and supported by peer reviewed data.

…That is OF COURSE until there is new data.

That should clear things up:)

From: azelkhntr
09-Jan-23
The universe is 13.5 billion years old; the Earth is 4.5 billion years old. Our sun will continue to exist for another 5 billion years estimated. It was a man who wrote that the earth is 6k years old. Perhaps at its writing the concept of billions of years wasn't comprehensible. Who knows? The Great Pyramids of Egypt may be 13K> years old. They like to claim 4k years old for them, but they still haven't discovered what the massive blocks to build them were cut with and then moved. It's a thorn for the Egyptologists. IMO the 3 GP's are likely pre-diluvian. During the age of Dinos the CO2 levels reached over 800 ppm. and life on the planet thrived for millions of years. Carpe' Diem!

From: Woods Walker
09-Jan-23
"....legal euthanasia to stop human expansion would be great first steps."

Uh...Hitler already tried that 80 years ago. Didn't go to well!

From: 12yards
09-Jan-23
"I don't deny humans have impacted the climate but no way is it a crisis."

KS, you must have skipped when I wrote this. So I'm not a climate change denier. Call me a climate change crisis denier. That would be true.

And I bet if I asked all those 90% of scientists how much of the warming is natural and how much is anthropegenic, none could tell me. And there isn't a paper out there that will tell me. Just models, that have been horribly off in estimating warming that has actually occurred. I would actually love to hear from the 90% how they personally truly feel. I bet a lot of them are afraid to truthfully tell what they really feel.

And, I would argue mitigating even though it might not be a crisis in the future will have devastating consequences to many people that won't be able to use fossil fuels to increase their quality of life. I'm fine with switching to low carbon alternatives, IF it is reliable, even if it costs me more. Nuclear is the answer IMO. Not these stupid solar arrays and windmills.

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-23
“And, I would argue mitigating even though it might not be a crisis in the future will have devastating consequences to many people that won't be able to use fossil fuels to increase their quality of life.”

That is eventually going to happen regardless. That isn’t to say that an economic consideration for families that depend on the fossil fuel industry for income shouldn’t be considered. It should. The current solution for energy reliability and reducing greenhouse gases is an “all of the above” sources until science can figure out a reliable and efficient way to store electrons.

Making false statements like sea level isn’t rising or storms aren’t getting more extreme is just BS by any legitimate measurement. I think most the time you just make s#%t up. You definitely don’t back it with scientifically legit sources.

From: 12yards
09-Jan-23
I didn't say sea level isn't rising. Maybe you need some reading comprehension work. Perhaps you can point me to some studies that show storms are getting more extreme and what percent of those storms' intensity is due to man made climate change. Not media bs, actual science that hasn't been manipulated or cherry picked.

From: 12yards
09-Jan-23

12yards's Link
Hurricanes

From: 12yards
09-Jan-23

12yards's Link
Tornados.

From: drycreek
09-Jan-23
Great discussion, but we have no first hand knowledge of what happened thousands of years ago, let alone millions (if in fact the earth has been here that long). So when you start telling me to believe the science I think immediately of covid, China, and Anthony Fauci.

From: 12yards
09-Jan-23

12yards's Link
I'm sure you're no fan of the Heartland Institute. But they reference the IPCC Report here.

From: WhattheFOC
09-Jan-23
I miss the old days. When we never had storms, fires or floods, the river was always at the same level and the Bowsite was about bowhunting. :)

09-Jan-23
Bowsite has always had guys on here arguing about politics and such. Exactly when was these good old days you talk about?

From: shade mt
09-Jan-23
Man is great at predicting....then when it don't pan out, we recalculate and make another prediction.

Like supernaut mentioned, We just forget, the whole acid rain thing back in the 80's...oh speaking of the 80's i have a picture of my wife sitting on our porch in Jan..it was like 80 degrees that day.

we were below zero here around christmas this year......i have a pic of a big snowstorm back in the 60's....and in the 90's.....i remember one year first day of firearm deer here in PA...really warm, i also remember 2 below one year.

Is the climate changing? yes, always has been, should we curb pollution? well of course, why on earth would we not where we can?......Will we totally do away with fossil fuel anytime soon like Joey Biden wants?...dream on. You want something to fear?...fear socialism, a one world system.....and those liberal nutcases....keep following their way, and our children and grandchildren will pay the price...Hopefully it isn't to late already. Climate change isn't our biggest threat right now...it's society change, and how we perceive right and wrong.

09-Jan-23
Hitler did not practice legal euthanasia, that is a very dumb assumption. If I decide to end my life due to a terminal illness, I should have that right. Legal euthanasia is already legal in some countries. If I so choose, why should I suffer and be a further burden on the health care system, tax payers and society in general ? Sorry, that is not Hitler at all, what a stupid comment!

From: South Farm
09-Jan-23
What, no vaccine for climate change?!? Next you'll be telling me we're all doing to DIE someday..

From: Treeline
09-Jan-23
“Climate Change”, formerly “Global Warming” and “Global Cooling” prior to that are all tools used by government to take away freedom.

The earth has been in a constant state of climate change since it began.

The religion of “climate change” and that mankind is evil continues to to be spread…

From: Ambush
09-Jan-23
Missouri, you can come to Canada for your MAID (medical assistance in dying) needs. All you need is a profession that you’re having a tuff time coping with life. I guess obsessive fear of climate change would qualify.

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-23

KSflatlander's Link
Here you go 12 Yards on tornadoes. Tornado alley is shifting east and south. They are more intense in the south and less intense in the Great Plains. It does clearly say that the US is pretty constant in the number of tornadoes but that doesn’t mean there isn’t change. Storms are definitely more intense for someone in Alabama.

09-Jan-23
I have no issue with climate change. The climate has always been changing, and will continue to do so. I do believe we should be aware of how we may contribute in some small way, but not become obsessed with it. The fundamental problem is too many people.

From: 12yards
09-Jan-23
Interesting paper but cannot point to climate change as a cause of the shift. At least that's what the discussion says.

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-23

KSflatlander's Link
Here is one that agrees with you that hurricane frequency and intensity has not increased on a century scale. The researchers have some disclaimers but doubt the resent (since 1980) increase in frequency and intensity of hurricanes can be linked to rising temperatures. Result…we don’t know for sure yet. I’m still looking…

They often say they can’t definitely link it to climate change and we never will for a given year. Climate is so complex but that’s no excuse for data paralysis. We have to move forward and make decisions on the data we do have. Like I said the vast majority of climate scientists agree that increased greenhouse gases in the atmosphere caused by humans is changing our climate. They are just debating how much, when, and where.

From: 12yards
09-Jan-23
And I agree with them. My beef is the panic caused by the media inflating their projections. Which is most of what it is based on impossible model predictions. If scientists could somehow reign in the media, we'd be far better off. Show the media there is still a lot of uncertainty, it's not settled science. Take a reasonable and equitable amount of time to transition. And actually transition to reliable and dense energy sources, we wouldn't have young people refusing to have children, or gluing themselves to race tracks, or suffering from climate depression.

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-23
12 Yards- predicting what will happen in the future with climate will never be 100%. But that doesn’t mean we ignore the data we have and shouldn’t prepare for what’s coming for future generations. It an energy, national security, societal, and humanitarian problem. 40% of all humans live on the coast. It could be THE humanitarian and social issue of our grand children and great grandchildren’s generation. And we didn’t include the shift in climate patterns across the world including heat and drought in this discussion.

I vote that we (as a society) prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Ignoring it will not make it go away. We need cheaper and more stable energy sources. Fossil fuels are an inevitable dead end and that’s a fact. Let’s get while the getting is good.

From: timex
09-Jan-23
Again a country boy perspective. My family moved to VA in the early 70s with the exception of 3 years I was chasing big bass in fla I've lived in the northern and now the eastern part of VA for 50 years. Frost & occasionally snow in Oct was normal, 20s in Nov was normal, single digits in Dec, Jan, Feb was normal. In the late 80s I killed 5-6 deer the last week of the season and they froze solid for a month. My wife was pissed, every stray dog for miles was camping out in my yard. Now fast forward 30 years and the previous two winters there have not been a total of 10 days with a daytime low below 32 degrees. Imo that's a huge change. Is the climate changing (in my area) YES.

Is the government gonna change it with all this green energy nonsense, NO.

A perfect example is on the coast where I live. It's proposed to erect 100s of windmills off the coast between ocean city MD and Virginia beach VA. The problem with these wind farms is the construction and maintenance burns more fossil fuel than the green energy they produce.

Not to mention closing huge amounts of the ocean their located in.

Is climate change happening ,,,Yes,,, Is our government gonna change it with this green energy nonsense,,,No,,,

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-23

KSflatlander's Link
“The problem with these wind farms is the construction and maintenance burns more fossil fuel than the green energy they produce.”

This is completely and totally false. It doesn’t even pass the sniff test without even looking it up.

From: RK
09-Jan-23
So KS. On your properties how are the wind turbines working out. Not withstanding the rental fees and property upgrades?

Do they seem efficient or why would you care, that is not in the wheel house of where ownership with these things matters

Just wondering what your real life experience is

From: timex
09-Jan-23
Ksflatlander,,,

Funny your link mentioned nothing about the marine survey sonar ships that have been frying every living thing on the ocean floor with their high powered sonar mapping out the proposed wind farm location and underwater power cable routes for the last 3 years and burning two thousand gallons of fuel a week doing so.

Is there a particular reason why your link left out this little tidbit of information ???

From: Coyote 65
09-Jan-23
I have experienced temperature extremes. Alaska in winter, Phoenix at 122 in summer. So if climate change comes about I am casting my vote for warming. You can always find a way to cool off, but it is impossible to put on enough clothes to stay warm at extreme cold.

Terry

From: RK
09-Jan-23
Climate change has everyone freaked out, but it's really weather that is responsible for to hot to cold to windy hurricane to big tornado to strong. Easy to confuse the two

From: Orion
09-Jan-23
Two takeaways from this thread: 1) No one cares about the huge amount of homeless excrement and heroin needles that flushed into the ocean from the "bomb cyclone" that hit San Francisco and will have a bigger impact now then global warming and 2) The delusional Christians on here think the earth is only 6-8,000 years old. So I guess they don't believe in dinosaurs or carbon dating. Do you guys think dinosaur fossils that have been discovered are fake?

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-23
RK- every single private landowner freely signs a contract to allow wind turbines on their property. I wonder why that is? All the wind farms I’ve worked on are still producing electrons. I’ve asked offtakers about production estimates vs actual production and they are out performing projections.

Timex- nice strawman combined with a red herring. Do you have any reference for anything you are claiming?

“underwater power cable routes for the last 3 years and burning two thousand gallons of fuel a week doing so.”

If you do the math, of 2000 gallons/year X 3 years X $10/gallon is about $3,000,000. That’s not even the equivalent cost of a single turbine. That’s assuming you’re right about your numbers which I highly doubt. A boat doing sonar surveys every week for 3 years seems pretty much hyperbole anyways. Why would they need to do it for 3 years straight lol.

The cost of the electron is fully loaded and the cost of renewables energy is quickly becoming competitive with other traditional sources of energy. It’s outcompeting already in some markets. The cost per electron is going down for renewables and going up for fossil fuels. Eventually renewables (infinite fuel) will catch fossil fuels (finite fuel) with or without subsidies. Do you want to lead other superpowers into the energy production revolution or do you want to be in the back of the pack? Personally, I’d rather lead.

From: Orion
09-Jan-23
How much oil does a wind turbine use annually?

From: 12yards
09-Jan-23
I'm assuming there are some fairly rare resources that are finite that are required in an electrified world. Hopefully technology will figure a way to recycle these things so we don't have to continue to destroy the environment to save it. The world will need a large amount of battery capacity for a lot of things. Cars, manufacturing, cities, etc. Storage will be huge if we're relying on wind and solar.

From: RK
09-Jan-23
Awesome info KS. I have 18 of those monsters on several properties but I appreciate you telling me how all of that works. Pathetic You are are going so fast at being right you have forgotten what right is. LMFAO

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-23
Then don’t ask…

You leased property you own for 18 turbines?

From: Orion
09-Jan-23
Flatlander how much oil does an individual turbine use per year?

From: RK
09-Jan-23
I like to ask to see what response the true dumbasses Have to say.

I have 18 turbines on property I own in Nueces and Brown Counties in Texas

You are the perfect civil servant.

Let's go on now to petroleum royalties. Tell me how those should be structured in Oklahoma, New Mexico and Texas. Hoping I did those right

From: KSflatlander
09-Jan-23
Please tell me where my responses to you weren’t true or incorrect?

The only thing you have established (allegedly) is you leased your land for a wind project for which you’re inferring that are…I don’t know what you’re inferring but possibly that you’re a hypocrite as long as someone is paying.

And I’m not a civil servant lol.

From: shade mt
10-Jan-23
To me the whole "climate change"...thing if it exist isn't the problem.

IF the climate is changing and it probably is, where do we go from here?...is it over all on average warmer, or colder than 100 yrs ago?...or 50 yrs ago?...or 25 yrs ago? Last year? i guess it depends on which year you pic in your comparison. And storms, worse now than before?...was the flooding in kentucky worse than Agnes in 72 ? or Katrina ?

Today we have the world at our fingertips... via www..It is much easier, and faster to spread the gloom and doom through media than before.

record breaking temps, storms etc...are instantly broadcast. The real problem is the people we elect to lead, to discern, to make sound choices based on wisdom to address real problems, and come up with a common sense solution.

Many of you are following or putting your faith in people that quite frankly should have never been given a leadership role in the first place.

When i see elected officials acting like a bunch of gossiping school girls, or using the F word or criticizing another official because he didn't support him in a sex trafficking scandal....lying, slander, vacation after vacation, during a crisis, the inability to pass good moral law for the good of all society, and the general lack of ability to lead this country in the RIGHT direction, instead of creating more problems, all at the expense of tax payer dollars....No, these are not the kind of people we want to put our trust in with something as important as climate change if it exist.

I am appalled at the choices our country is making, because it effects MY family.....and the world we live in.....It's time to put the boot to some of this stuff.

From: 2Wild Bill
10-Jan-23
shade,

"It's time to put the boot to some of this stuff." - It has always been the time people live in. What is prevalent today is apathy. As in Rome, the attention getter is the circus and not the affairs of state/society.

"Tyrants succeed where God fails." - https://www.newsmax.com/jerrynewcombe/gorbachev-marx-engels/2022/09/08/id/1086605/

Every law is an outcome of morality, which establishes the ability to legislate morality. The question is not whether morality can be legislated, but "whose".

10-Jan-23
I’m thankful for all of the “man made global warming” thousands of years ago, that melted that mile thick ice sheet off the Midwest so that I could deer hunt there someday

From: Catscratch
10-Jan-23
I get tired of the wildfire thing being blamed on climate change. If you spent the last 50yrs letting fuel loads build your fires are going to be out of control when they happen.

We leased our land to a wind farm. Would have been great income for us but the site was shut down by our governor and it was built elsewhere. He said our land was too pretty for us to use it how we want to. Once again another example of government overreach to private citizens.

From: timex
10-Jan-23

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
Ksflatlander Here ya go brother My affected area is MD & VA Now if your in this business then surly you'd understand the need to use high powered sonar ships so survey the ocean floor where these are projected to be erected.

Im fairly certain you haven't a clue about the complexity's associated with offshore wind farming........ya know like ya just don't drive your pickup truck out there.

Ya also completely disregarded the destruction to the Marin life these high powered sonar ships are doing. But hey it doesn't affect you right , so who cares !!!

I'm just guessing on the fuel burn of these ships but a friend of mine works on a 120' tug and 2000 gallons per week is an extremely conservative number

From: KSflatlander
10-Jan-23
You said 2000 gallons a week for 52 weeks for 3 years for an offshore wind farm. Seems like BS but maybe that’s exactly what happens. Here’s your chance to back it up. Also, please provide the specifics on the sonar and some kind of evidence of this “destruction” to marine life. I do know that there are law’s protecting marine life. Here’s another chance for you to prove it.

From: RK
10-Jan-23
Don’t waste your time Timex

If KS was interested in any of this he would be piling up his peer review links and other links that he thinks will prove his case. Usually they don’t

I did not say you were a civil servant. I said you are the perfect civil servant.

From: 12yards
10-Jan-23
KS, I'm a fish squeezer by profession and was curious about his claim of damage to aquatic life due to sonar use. So I did some digging and saw that it is in fact true that some specific types of sonar can be lethal or destructive to marine life. If this is the type being used in these areas offshore, he might be on to something. After 30+ years of fisheries science, I'm still learning stuff.

From: KSflatlander
10-Jan-23
Agreed 12 Yards. I was just giving Timex a chance to provide evidence of such. However, it’s hard for me to believe that this sonar is so “destructive” as Timex claims as there are many laws on the books already to prevent it. The ESA for one.

RK- thanks for the non-response to my question.

From: RK
10-Jan-23
You received the answer that you deserved and you are welcome

From: timex
10-Jan-23

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
I told you my numbers on the fuel were conservative.

Although I couldn't find anything on the affect of sonar on the ocean floor life I'm referring to. Ya know like the bottom of the food chain that the bait fish feed on that attracts the pelagic predator species that we fish for. There's been a noticable decline in the fishery in these areas.

From: RK
10-Jan-23
Timex

Came through your part of the world in mid December Fueled up and got a rockfish sandwich at Stingrays (I think) before heading through the tunnels. Pretty part of the world

10-Jan-23

Altitude Sickness 's embedded Photo
Altitude Sickness 's embedded Photo
What if the earth is actually farming humans. And the earth needs it warmer.

Whoa, Mind blown:>)))))

10-Jan-23

From: timex
10-Jan-23
Rk .....I live 15 miles north of stingrays. Locals call it cape center. I miss hunting the hill country in NW VA but there's plenty of deer here and the Chesapeake bay on one side & the Atlantic ocean on the other. It's a pretty awesome place to live if ya like hunting and fishing.

From: RK
10-Jan-23
NW Virginia is very pretty but you are right more variety in things to do where you are living

From: 'Ike'
10-Jan-23
'Fish Squeezer'....I like that! Lol

From: Orion
10-Jan-23
Well since the flatlander didn't answer I guess these wind turbines don't use any oil.

From: KSflatlander
10-Jan-23
Look it up yourself…

From: Orion
10-Jan-23
I did but none of the articles I found were peer reviewed so I figured I'd wait for the "real" number that can only come from you before I argued about your "green" energy

From: 2Wild Bill
10-Jan-23
Can sonar hurt marine life? Speaking from experience, I believe it can.

In the late 70's I served aboard a nuclear polaris submarine. Shortly after leaving Spain and submerged, we headed north in the Atlantic. We were detected by a task force of surface ships which stepped up their sonar pinging as we went to battle stations and came to a full stop. Later I heard that the Captain was advised by our sonarmen that the ships were American and so holding our position was the non-threatening thing to do. Our mission forbade us to communicate to any other ships. We spent the next two hours hearing that incessant ping ringing in our head, through the hull and superstructure of the ship, as desk sailors back in the states scrambled to ascertain who was this sub and why was it there.

Yeah, I believe marine life could be harmed.

From: Basil
10-Jan-23
I shake my head at this push for wind & solar energy. I see the need to move from fossil fuels eventually but the fact is we are not to that point yet. Here in Minnesota solar panels are taking huge chunks of crop lands out of production right when we have so many more mouths to feed. Right now these solar farms are flat, covered in snow & producing nothing . Simply not very efficient this far North. When storage becomes feasible solar might help. Wind is OK when it blows. My company was one of the largest wind power producers in the nation. Some windless winter days these wind farms were net power consumers. Here in the Midwest we haven’t had any for a week. What do we do when our reliable base load is dismantled? These last few years of cold weather events should open some eyes but it’s still full steam ahead in closing coal plants before we have reliable replacement power sources. If people knew how stressed our powers grid was it might open some eyes. Until 10 days ago I could watch prices & demand real time nation wide. Another huge problem is when these large base load plants are offline we can’t control the voltage on the power grid. I’m retired now & don’t have this info at my fingertips. This past year there were more “code yellow”stressed system alerts than in the past 10 years combined. Interesting how they tell us to turn down our AC while at the same time they tell us to buy electric cars the grid can’t support. Now proposals to ban gas cooktops in favor of more electric???

From: Orion
10-Jan-23
Good post Basil there is also the reason the flatlander that's pushing all this wind energy has refused to answer my question on how much oil those turbines use.

From: Basil
10-Jan-23
Heaters for the generator windings. Heaters for oil filled gear boxes. Lots of videos of spectacular windmill failures & fires. My former employer bought an entire fleet of windmills from California. No longer profitable to run once government subsidies ran out. Cost a small fortune to convert for cold climate running.

From: Basil
10-Jan-23
Some days there is lots of wind power on the grid. Those days can be a pain in the butt for a power plant operator. Chasing load & voltage corrections constantly. These large base load plants are designed to run at full load & pretty much stay there. There are only so many cycles in a plants lifespan. Running these plants like peaking plants is tearing them apart. Has definitely affected reliability so important to all of us.

From: Rut Nut
10-Jan-23
I saw they shut down Mammoth Mtn ski area today due to too much snow......................oh the IRONY! ;-)

From: shade mt
11-Jan-23
bunch of them up in Tioga county here in PA....been times i seen them just sitting there, not even spinning......

not sure why, not enough wind i suppose, but it seems like an awful lot of money not to be used...

From: Hackbow
11-Jan-23
"No longer profitable to run once government subsidies ran out."

Basil wins. When economic realities are applied to govt-forced "green" initiatives, they always fail. But fake "scientists", especially those employed by for-profit corporations pushing mandated green stuff, gather in close circles and give one another a hand in spewing forth a release of peer reviewed propaganda.

As in all things, follow the money.

From: Basil
11-Jan-23
Power plant I ran had 3 large coal fired units total around 2400 Megawatts. Biggest in the Midwest. Some days the company produces more wind power than that. That’s the problem “some days”. Other days wind farms only consume power. I’ve seen as much as 45 MW. Shutting down one of those units some time this year. The other 2 by 2030. I know how reliable these plants have been & how much below emission standards they operate. Cheap, reliable power & hundreds of jobs going away without replacement power it worries me.

From: Basil
11-Jan-23
Power plant I ran had 3 large coal fired units total around 2400 Megawatts. Biggest in the Midwest. Some days the company produces more wind power than that. That’s the problem “some days”. Other days wind farms only consume power. I’ve seen as much as 45 MW. Shutting down one of those units some time this year. The other 2 by 2030. I know how reliable these plants have been & how much below emission standards they operate. Cheap, reliable power & hundreds of jobs going away without replacement power it worries me.

From: azelkhntr
11-Jan-23

azelkhntr's embedded Photo
azelkhntr's embedded Photo

From: Woods Walker
11-Jan-23
And Brandon will sniff his hair!

From: shade mt
11-Jan-23
wife just told me the Biden administration is trying to ban gas stoves...If its true?....what a BLOOMING DING A LING !!!!!!!!.....aint happening, we have a gas range, gas stove etc....very nice when power goes out....NOT happening, not in this household.

Then there is talk about checking emissions on them....i'll just bet that'll be free.

Enough is enough....NOT Happening.

From: shade mt
11-Jan-23
meant to say gas range and gas hot water heater.....

From: azelkhntr
11-Jan-23

azelkhntr's embedded Photo
azelkhntr's embedded Photo

From: Hackbow
11-Jan-23
If you're not willing to give up your gas stove to save the planet, you're a selfish, un-American, science-denying fool. This is PEER REVIEWED SCIENCE conducted by a consensus of really self-important, agenda -driven ideologues who know better than you how to take care of you.

From: shade mt
11-Jan-23
Ya gotta wonder where these people come up with this stuff.

yea....typical liberal gov't official meeting.

Show up at the office at 9:00 (or later)....tell the secretary (man disguised as a woman)...order me a coffee and pastry, and hold my calls, we will be meeting to discuss important stuff....... after the usual, gossip, golf talk, etc...."well lets see".... "what can we do about "climate change"?? hmm,, think think think...hmm, ...boy...., "can you guys think of anything? i gotta have something to present to big Joe"...hmmm,.... aw looky there, got pastry on my new tie....think, think, think..."well we don't want to mess with the railroad, or anything to do with ships, we are going on a cruise, and we don't want to mess with airlines, that'll mess up big Joes umpteen vacations"...hmmm...hmmm, think think think....I GOT IT!! LETS BAN GAS STOVES !!! hurray, what a brilliant idea, sock it to the little guy, big Joe will love it.... What about, hunting camps, campers, grills etc....?....yea lets form a committee and a gas stove task force ....tough guys, pow pow pow, bust up them gas stoves....yea

From: Shaft2Long
12-Jan-23
I was just checking the thread to see if anybody had gotten word of the gas stove crisis. I can see it’s been covered.

The stupidity and ignorance surrounding today’s Democratic Party has reached a point where it’s irreversible. An election is going to fix any of this. There won’t be any civil war, we are just gonna hold on for the ride down the drain.

In fifty years this country is going to look like China. Government transportation and high rise efficiency apartment units with people milling about in masks 24-7. F’ed up power grid so we’ll all be shutting of our A/C units around 9pm.

From: Woods Walker
12-Jan-23

Woods Walker's embedded Photo
Woods Walker's embedded Photo
Get ready, here it comes...again.......

From: fdp
12-Jan-23
Kinda' reminds you of the suggestions to inject people with disinfectant and ultraviolet light huh?

12-Jan-23
Nobody is banning gas stoves. That was just a ridiculous comment mentioned by one consumer safety person. Nobody, including the President, supports this at all.

Of course you won’t see that reported on right wing media because they can get more mileage by lying about it.

From: 2Wild Bill
12-Jan-23

"U.S. Consumer Product Safety (CPSC) Commissioner Richard Trumka Jr. told Bloomberg News earlier this week that natural gas stoves, used by millions of Americans every day, are a “hidden hazard” and said that “any option is on the table.”"

One "official" consumer safety person.

Phil, Downplaying the left suits you well.

From: 12yards
12-Jan-23
Phil, ask the fine Governor of NY what she is pushing for regarding natural gas.

From: Woods Walker
12-Jan-23

Woods Walker's Link
Beat me to it 12....

Get those bellows ready!

From: Orion
12-Jan-23
Where is the flatlander?

From: Catscratch
12-Jan-23
Ya but.... with the New Green Deal, cow farts, funding other countries for carbon, etc the idea that our government would consider banning gas stoves is remotely believable and therefore funny. The meme's have been great!

From: fdp
12-Jan-23
"lnsert name here, up playing the left suits you well." LOL!!!!

From: 70lbDraw
12-Jan-23
“Nobody is banning gas stoves. That was just a ridiculous comment mentioned by one consumer safety person. Nobody, including the President, supports this at all. Of course you won’t see that reported on right wing media because they can get more mileage by lying about it.”

You mean, just like the southern border? China Joe says it’s secure, but right wing media has been showing pictures and videos of illegals pouring in like a river. Lies!

China Joe said the vaccine will prevent infection. Lie!

China Joe says he’s never taken a dime from foreign interests. It’s a lie.

China Joe says misinformation needs to be regulated. Yet Elon Musk discovered that Twitter was colluding with the FBI to censor anything that might threaten joes election. They also censored information that didn’t fit the pandemic narrative. In other words, they lied!

China Joe says keeping classified documents is irresponsible for Trump to do, yet, we discovered (last November) a cache of classified documents in joes possession and suddenly it’s not a problem?! He’s a liar!

China Joe still claims that Capitol police died during J6. Lies, lies, lies!

A majority of the crap you bowlibs spew, has recently been discovered to be cover-ups and lies. Yet you still maintain your loyalty to him and defend his perpetual dishonesty.

Between Twitter getting exposed and Kevin McCarthy picking up the gavel, your woke empire is about to come crashing down. Hopefully it happens before he has a chance to pollute the rest of the country with any more useless wind turbines.

From: fdp
12-Jan-23
LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!

From: KSflatlander
12-Jan-23
I don’t know which is more funny, banning gas stoves or seeing Orion and Hackbow get spun up.

From: ILbowhntr
12-Jan-23
Why does it alway fall on Americans to change?

I got home Monday from Central and South America. Bring up EV, solar or wind farms and they look at you like you’re crazy. Most pollution comes from “under developed” countries and they have no intention of changing. It’s like bailing out a boat while your buddy is knocking more holes in it.

From: Orion
12-Jan-23
I'm not spun I'm still waiting for you to post how much oil your precious wind turbines use annually

From: shade mt
12-Jan-23
stuff just gets crazier....i know this don't really have anything to do with the "green thing"...but then again YES it does because the whole mess is CRAZY!..lol

well chickens aren't laying very good, so wife had to buy eggs....checked them to make sure there were no cracked ones, and found a couple cartons with eggs missing, people stealing eggs now because they are so expensive?...lol...good grief, the whole "green thing" isn't our only issue....better get a handle on this inflation as well....and the whole "green thing"...sure isn't going to help that.

From: ILbowhntr
12-Jan-23
Orion, don’t know about oil, but diesel fuel. There’s a diesel motor in each one to turn it when the winds not blowing.

From: KSflatlander
12-Jan-23
ROTFLMAO- that’s a good one ILbowhunter. I’ve not heard that one before. Too funny. I’m going to steal that one.

From: ILbowhntr
12-Jan-23
Orion, don’t know about oil, but diesel fuel. There’s a diesel motor in each one to turn it when the winds not blowing.

12-Jan-23
Oversimplification is the path of today so…

The combustion reaction of natural gas…

CH4 + 2O2 ——> CO2 + 2H2O

That reaction releases energy that cooks my food and converts methane into carbon dioxide. Methane is 75-80 times more powerful as a greenhouse gas.

I’m saving the planet.

12-Jan-23
I can't resist this:

"“Nobody is banning gas stoves. That was just a ridiculous comment mentioned by one consumer safety person. Nobody, including the President, supports this at all. Of course you won’t see that reported on right wing media because they can get more mileage by lying about it.”

I should have said at the federal level. States are free to do whatever they want which is right in line with what conservatives believe and the Constitution says.

"You mean, just like the southern border? China Joe says it’s secure, but right wing media has been showing pictures and videos of illegals pouring in like a river. Lies!"

The border has been an issue for every President. The Republicans won't sit down and discuss solutions because the get more mileage making it a political issue.

"China Joe said the vaccine will prevent infection. Lie!"

The vaccine does prevent infection and lessens he severity of those vaccinated people that get COVID. FACT.

"China Joe says he’s never taken a dime from foreign interests. It’s a lie."

I don't know. Haven't seen his bank statements. But we all know the Republicans have taken foreign money.

"China Joe says misinformation needs to be regulated. Yet Elon Musk discovered that Twitter was colluding with the FBI to censor anything that might threaten joes election. They also censored information that didn’t fit the pandemic narrative. In other words, they lied! "

I wouldn't trust Elon Musk any farther than I could throw him. But if censoring misinformation about how the vaccine is useless or COVID isn't bad is what you're talking about then it should be censored on a private forum.

"China Joe says keeping classified documents is irresponsible for Trump to do, yet, we discovered (last November) a cache of classified documents in joes possession and suddenly it’s not a problem?! He’s a liar!"

It appears Biden did not knowingly take classified documents, immediately notified NARA when they were found, had his aides search to see if there were more and, when more were found he reported that as well. In the case of Trump, he took the documents knowing they were classified, claimed he de-classified them in a broad, illegal sweeping gesture, tried to hide them, ignored a subpeona, then gave a token batch of documents up but kept the rest, leading to the very legal and productive raid on his golf club.

"China Joe still claims that Capitol police died during J6. Lies, lies, lies!"

That isn't worth even discussing.

"A majority of the crap you bowlibs spew, has recently been discovered to be cover-ups and lies. Yet you still maintain your loyalty to him and defend his perpetual dishonesty."

If you are getting your information from right wing media you have no room to talk about lies.

"Between Twitter getting exposed and Kevin McCarthy picking up the gavel, your woke empire is about to come crashing down. Hopefully it happens before he has a chance to pollute the rest of the country with any more useless wind turbines."

McCarthy sold his soul to become speaker and will do nothing of consequence. If you understand how our government works you know that any legislation passed by the House will die in the Senate or be vetoed by Biden.

From: ILbowhntr
12-Jan-23
KS, it’s not a joke. Know a guy that’s a diesel mechanic in several wind farms and I’ve seen them in the bases up in northern Illinois.

From: RK
12-Jan-23
Yep Phil. LMAO

You should have resisted.

From: KSflatlander
12-Jan-23
Wait……what?

Ok. You all have fun. I’m out on that note.

From: Orion
12-Jan-23
Since Kansas didn't want to answer his green energy turbines use 80 gallons of oil a year per turbine. That oil has to be replaced on a yearly basis. So how green are they really?

From: fdp
12-Jan-23
"well chickens aren't laying very good,"....Ours finally started laying good again last week. I've got 2 dozen the 'fridge and was able to give the neighbor lady a dozen. So maybe yours will start back pretty quick.

From: 70lbDraw
12-Jan-23
“If you understand how our government works you know that any legislation passed by the House will die in the Senate or be vetoed by Biden.”

And if that doesn’t work, the FBI can manipulate it to favor the Dems and make Trump look bad in the process.

The same excuses are getting old. Keep parroting those CNN reporting guidelines. They may not be truthful, but they are entertaining! I think you also pay way too much attention to Jean Pierre. You act like she’s actually convincing people that the Democrats can do no wrong. Lol!

By the way. When will Trump be “ led away in manacles”?

From: KSflatlander
12-Jan-23
Oh boy you got me there Orion. Better pump up the strategic reserves. Do you think about recycling the hydraulic fluid? Or did you think they just dump it on the back forty? How much fossil fuel does a coal or natural gas plant use in comparison? Does a wind project consume more or less fossil fuel per MW compared to a coal or gas plant? I’ll let you google it and figure it out yourself. Also include all the energy it takes to build and transport the turbine parts but do the same for the traditional power plants too.

That’s why I didn’t respond because the discussion is just silly.

From: Don T. Lewis
12-Jan-23
When I was growing up men were men and women were women. And according to the woke generation if you wake up today you can identify as a left wing extremist story telling drag Queen garden gnome. And tomorrow you can identify as a left wing extremist anti Trump rain bow haired Green agenda satanic worshiper that was born a man but identifies as a woman five days a week and a Furby sheep on the week ends. Yes America is just fine. No need to worry about climate change;) But Bottom line. The Lord is always in control. And his plan is the best plan. Hold strong in your faith.

From: 2Wild Bill
12-Jan-23
Phil, "I should have said at the federal level." - He is a Federal Commissioner. U.S. Consumer Product Safety (CPSC) Commissioner Richard Trumka Jr. told Bloomberg News earlier this week that natural gas stoves, used by millions of Americans every day, are a “hidden hazard” and said that “any option is on the table.”

“Products that can’t be made safe can be banned,” he said, adding that federal agencies could set “standards on emissions from the appliances.”

"Biden Administration Responds After Federal Agency Suggests Gas Stove Ban" https://www.theepochtimes.com/mkt_app/biden-administration-responds-after-federal-agency-suggests-gas-stove-ban_4978308.html?utm_source=Morningbrief&src_src=Morningbrief&utm_campaign=mb-2023-01-12&src_cmp=mb-2023-01-12&utm_medium=email&est=PGJweDhxTCz17N%2Bgh3u2wtu4uq7eMnIWSqWY8eQd3O389rKznS%2FxRvM%3D

Phil, You should have resisted.

From: Orion
12-Jan-23
So Kansas how are you going to run those turbines when you guys eliminate fossil fuels?

From: KSflatlander
12-Jan-23
With the spit from right wing nuts

From: TRnCO
12-Jan-23
"The vaccine does prevent infection and lessens he severity of those vaccinated people that get COVID. FACT."

So IF the vaccine prevents infection of those vaccinated, why also try to tell me that it lessens the severity. It either prevents infections or it doesn't ...and if someone gets covid after getting the vaccine, then obviously it doesn't prevent anything.

From: Don T. Lewis
12-Jan-23
Yes dr. Fauci and others have lied to us the American citizen

From: Don T. Lewis
12-Jan-23
Common sense will tell you that too.

12-Jan-23
Orion, better yet.

How will they strip mine most of the planet to get the lithium and graphite to build enough batteries to replace all the combustion engines. Battery excavators, earth movers and dump trucks. Battery processing plants to build solar panels and batteries. I’ve got it !! Perpetual energy, batteries building batteries

From: Orion
12-Jan-23
Altitude notice that he couldnt answer the question. Typical liberal response just call names and head for their safe space

12-Jan-23
"So IF the vaccine prevents infection of those vaccinated, why also try to tell me that it lessens the severity. It either prevents infections or it doesn't ...and if someone gets covid after getting the vaccine, then obviously it doesn't prevent anything.

Yes, it does prevent it but not totally. Nothing is absolute and nobody claimed it was. People are still able to contract it just as people that had it once can contract it again. But it's not even a question, except in the right wing crazies world, whether vaccines are effective.

From: 70lbDraw
12-Jan-23
“Yes, it does prevent it but not totally.”

I suppose you’re almost 100% kinda sure of that aren’t you? Lol!

What I really want to know is, are we going to convert all the current combustion vehicles into electric, or just abandon them altogether? I suppose the plan is to just bury them in the ground, like a broke down wind turbine. Sounds like they’ll just become more environmental hazards to contribute to our dying planet! Lol!

From: KSflatlander
12-Jan-23
Orion really. Who said we will get rid of all uses of oil? You ever used PVC or noticed the other uses for oil besides burning. Lubricants is one which you brought up? There’s fuel and then there are other uses. And the oil and coal reduction is related electricity production. ENERGY. If anyone is calling of elimination of all uses of oil they are as delusional as you are uninformed.

You really didn’t think this out did you.

From: Don T. Lewis
12-Jan-23
Dr Fauci said there was no gain of function in the Wuhan lab. Which we found out was a lie. They told us the coronavirus came from a bat from a wet bar. Yes they eat bats in China. But that was a lie too. We found out it was a man made virus. And this was a very dangerous thing they were experimenting with. I’d like to know why we’re they experimenting with this man made virus. We were told that Hunter Biden’s lap top was Russian collusion and didn’t exist. But then they found it. And we know Hunter Biden was making big bucks from Communist China. And it said something about the big guy making big money too. Will we ever find out who the big guy is? Maybe not. So much corruption going on.

From: Orion
12-Jan-23
I'm pretty sure your president has stated numerous times that they are eliminating all fossil fuels. Did you not see that? Yes I am fully aware of everything that comes from oil that's why it's laughable when the left claims they want to eliminate all fossil fuels.

From: KSflatlander
12-Jan-23
The key word being FUEL…like burning.

From: Don T. Lewis
12-Jan-23
The right wants to destroy capitalism. That’s their plan with the Green agenda. Kill the fossil fuels industry. Yet the two countries with the largest populations China and India will keep pumping fossil fuels into the air. They don’t care about the Green agenda. But they love that it’s screwing up our country. Good thing we have John Kerry on the job huh?!

12-Jan-23
I can’t wait to see the size of the batteries that’s going to needed in order to drill for that oil. And pump that oil to storage. Then it’d be awesome to see the batteries charged to load that stored oil onto its transportation. But, get this, can you imagine the trill of sailing that green crude oil to its destination.

Yeah, eliminating the demand for oil in fuel is a great idea.

From: Bigdog 21
12-Jan-23
The coronavirus was just a test the big one will be coming

From: Don T. Lewis
12-Jan-23
Well Rick you make a good point. If we don’t see anyone held accountable for what happened in the Wuhan lab? I’d say it’s a very good possibility what you say. Look what they accomplished with this man made COVID virus. Thank God it wasn’t on a much larger scale.

From: Mint
13-Jan-23
Fauci and the CDC did more to harm medical science than anyone in the last 100 years. I live in New York and know a lot of liberals that refuse to listen to anyone about getting a booster. They rightfully point out, why should i believe them now since they lied to me over and over again. Most of them got the vaccine and first booster and have had covid at least once. Saying it prevents infection when the science shows that is doesn't is just foolish and turns most people away. Does it help, I think it does based on what i've seen but being a healthy male i'm not getting another booster and will weather it out.

From: 2Wild Bill
13-Jan-23
Phil,

" Nothing is absolute and nobody claimed it was." - Truth is, was, and ever will be.

" But it's not even a question, except in the right wing crazies world, whether vaccines are effective."

The left has a faith/trust which is blind to reason, of course they don't question what their earthly masters tell them, that's how indoctrination affects people, you included.

Indoctrination = the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically:

Believers, unbelievers and make believers; saved or indoctrinated, ALL have to answer the first question from the Bible, "Where are you?"

From: timex
13-Jan-23
Ya ever wonder how cavemen cut their toenails

From: 70lbDraw
13-Jan-23
The CDC just announced that they will investigate adverse reactions to the vaccine.

As they say, the wheels of justice turn slowly.

From: Don T. Lewis
13-Jan-23
Bryan , Does this include young Heathy people that have been just dropping dead? That have gotten the vaccine?

From: 70lbDraw
13-Jan-23
The way I understand it, it’s looking at 65 years and older. But that’s a good start. With any luck it will encompass the entire program.

From: Don T. Lewis
13-Jan-23
Thanks Bryan

From: fdp
13-Jan-23
Timex I have. But I suspect that maybe just the whole spending time without wearing shoes allowed them to be worn down naturally.

From: DanaC
14-Jan-23

DanaC's Link
"Revealed: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s"

From: fuzzy
14-Jan-23
https://futurism.com/startup-releasing-chemicals-dim-sun

From: fuzzy
14-Jan-23
Remember we "killed" coal because of the SO2 emissions and acid rain. Now we "must" inject SO2 into the atmosphere to offset "climate change ". What a "SIGCF"

From: 2Wild Bill
14-Jan-23
They seed rain clouds, right?

From: azelkhntr
15-Jan-23
The WEF is hosting its annual 'we will enslave the world conference' in Davos. Over 1100 private a/c from all around the world brought in the mucky mucks. One or 2 may be a congressman of yours. Interestingly it is reported that all the pilots for these reptiles had to be un-xvaxd. They have big plans for themselves and the planet. They don't include you tho.

From: azelkhntr
15-Jan-23

azelkhntr's Link
We could spend every penny of every country of the world and not make one cents worth of difference against what's coming.

From: shade mt
16-Jan-23
The bible was written by men inspired by God. Being mere men its reasonable to assume they had limited ability to understand what they were writing, and recorded to the best of their ability. It is written..."who can know God".... Some things can be taken literal, many things are figurative. But the key fundamentals are there. The Bible is not contrary to "true" science. the key word being "true"....not some crazy theory or agenda endorsed by people that are so erroneous that they are confused about something as simple and clear as gender...etc....

But quacks aside.....the Bible tells us this world will be destroyed by fire. How that will all come about i do not know. But i believe.......i have to....nothing else makes sense to me, and no i do not claim to understand fully. But this i know, as complicated, and diverse, as our earth is, from the changing tides, to rain from the sky, to a buck in rut and mankind....let alone the stars in heaven and the great universe.....There has to be something far greater out there than man......and at the "end of the road we will meet God".....that is something far greater than my simple understanding.....I encourage you if you haven't considered that....do so.

From: 2Wild Bill
16-Jan-23
No dead atheists, eh shade.

From: Jeff Durnell
16-Jan-23
I considered it Steve. Went to bible study and church for a while as a youngster, and quit when they couldn't answer my questions or show an ounce of proof of their outlandish claims. Even as a kid, I saw through them.

There are lots of things out there greater than man for which there is real proof. We're not remotely as important in the big picture as many of us would like to believe. In large, humans are conceited about living and easily led with fear to believe death can't/shouldn't be the end of them. It's understandable I suppose, but not personally convincing to those of us not prone to indoctrination or baseless fear.

From: Michael
16-Jan-23
Orion,

Your 50 gallon comment is a broad statement when it comes to how much oil a wind turbine uses in a year. Depending on the size of the turbine that number can go up or down. Then throw in how blades are pitched that number changes as well. Turbine companies like Vestas us hydraulic pitch for blades where as GE uses electric motors for blade pitch.

I scratch my head at the agendas pushed by government. Turbines are getting bigger and bigger. With that foundations get bigger and bigger. Well the added mass in concrete brings on curing temp issues. One way to help combat that is to have a mix design with 25% fly ash or even as high as 35%. With the amount of coal plants shut down it has hurt the supply side of fly ash.

I have put up thousands of wind turbines. Not a single one has a diesel engine in it. LOL.

From: 2Wild Bill
16-Jan-23
Jeff,

"their outlandish claims"

OK, as an adult consider this, you have to be smaller than a hypocrite to hide behind one. What proof do you have that God doesn't exist? Aristotle called God the prime mover of existence. Who has indoctrinated you?

From: timex
16-Jan-23
2wild bill...... I have faith, I've had more than a few near death experiences to not believe there's a reason I'm still here. Now that said my family's not been so fortunate. Not going into a bunch of details but it's incredibly difficult for me to accept tragedy and pray for miracles at the same time. And I've not met a preacher man yet that could explain that to me.

From: Bigdog 21
16-Jan-23
When people put down the remote control and stop worrying about deer and elk and study what the leaders want and are pursuing. That's all the Leaders UN. They are thinking 30 to 50 years ahead not tomorrow . We are slowly being headed in there direction of plans.and if you have a open mind and can see threw the lines and look around to what's already going on. It matches what the bible says in the end.

17-Jan-23

Altitude Sickness 's embedded Photo
Altitude Sickness 's embedded Photo

From: 2Wild Bill
17-Jan-23
timex,

You say you have faith, my question is, in what? Faith is usually understood as a sincere trust. As you say, you sense a purpose in having survived, that may be so, but without knowledge of, to what end? For a believer, the knowledge of God is not by way of what other people say, but the exchange of revelation of himself to you. God reveals himself through his word. The god most people know is too small to be actual God. So, God has revealed himself in a unique fashion. He not only reveals himself by a written word, but by also personifying that word in a man, the Lord Jesus.

Daily all people suffer the consequences of sin in this world. Sometimes it is our own sin or in many cases the sin of others. Daily all people are moving towards eternity, and what that amounts to for each individual depends on our response to God, here and now. Mankind flaunts his pride in saying, "show me and I'll believe", whereas God states, "believe and I will show you". Faith/trust is understanding who you are dealing with. He calls to us and our response is instrumental to the shape of our eternal existance.

Because of the magnitude of God, what his creation suffers in it's lifetime, is not worthy of comparison to the glory to be revealed. "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." 1Corinthians 2:9

Loving somebody you don't know is humanly impossible. Because God loves you, he has made it possible for you to love him in return. "Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

God reveals himself, are you really looking?

Bigdog21, If the Bible says how the world ends, how then is it "their" plan/direction? You think you know the times we are in? Jesus said before leaving Earth, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."Acts 1:7, whereas you say you do know. Hmmmmm, IMHO Jesus has more credibility than you. Open minds are like open windows, without screens the bugs get in.

From: Bigdog 21
17-Jan-23
I understand what God says when one world gov. Arrives and do you know witch of are leaders are for one world gov. And how many country's are for the same.. and what it could lead to. I read up then I look around at what is changing and it may not all be true but alot of it has and is happening. We will not see it but are grand kids will fill it. Theres more Evel running the world then you think. But most will stay in denial. Just like they can't band guns 2nd . Amendment. look what happens in IL. Votes wins and who's doing the biggest voting. Same ones that will vote to become safe and equal. In a one world gov.

From: 2Wild Bill
17-Jan-23
Bigdog21,

In all your studies, have you ever heard of the Convention of States?

Four years before there was a 2nd Amendment, the writers of the Constitution questioned what could be done if the Federal government took rights from the people and become tyrannical. Article V was rewritten to allow the states to hold a convention and propose amendments to the Constitution without the approval of Congress, because they understood Congress would not fix the government themselves, to the satisfaction of the people. If you are just waiting to use your guns to be free, you've waited too long and will cost many Americans their lives. Sign the petition, learn more and spread the word. It is what the founders wanted and is better than resorting to killing people. A little over half the states have signed on to the convention and there are people in every state working to get to this convention.

https://conventionofstates.com/

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." 2Chronicles 7:14

God doesn't say take up arms, he calls on believers to repent, pray and turn from their wicked ways.

If you think your way is easier, think again.

"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Proverbs 16:25

17-Jan-23
Wildbill - if the government currently ignores the constitution, what makes you think they would give a sheet about the convention of states

17-Jan-23
More to the point, if certain people or groups ignore the Constitution what makes anyone think they would abide by what a convention of states comes up with?

From: timex
18-Jan-23
Or furthermore the only thing more deceitful than a politician is a wealthy preacher man.

2wild bill......thanks for the sermons brother, but I'm afraid our government's well past being saved by the good book.

I was 18-19 first warm spell in spring I was on the Potomac river small mouth fishing I underestimated the current And got swept down the river. Within minutes I could barely tread water, the cold was quickly sucking the life out of me. I hadn't seen a single person that morning and out of nowhere a kayak showed up drug me to shore and then vanished just as mysteriously as it had appeared. There's not a doubt in my mind that an angel spared my life that morning. This is but one of many times I should have died. I believe in god and the heavens. I don't understand all the pain and suffering in this world. Myself personally have had a great life. The rest of my family not so much. This I'll never understand and you nor any other preacher man has never come up with a ,,, logical,,, explanation.

From: 2Wild Bill
18-Jan-23
timex,

"logical,,, explanation For this"

"As it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement." Hebrews 9:27 It wasn't your time to die yet, and God, in his mercy spared you then, so the obvious reason was to give you more time to hear of his love for you.

Let's suppose you are crossing a street and suddenly you are shoved from behind and the force hurls you to the other side of the street. You turn to see what happened and find that somebody saw a danger to you from a speeding vehicle and shoved you clear. However, in that process that person was struck and killed. Naturally speaking, you would have an interest in learning who that was and why you were cared for. In your case we find, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

If you think you can see/hear this and continue on in life saying "I'll never understand this", that's a pretty lame excuse. "God so loved timex, that he gave his only begotton son to die for the sins of timex. God loves you, but where you go from here is on you. I would suggest you open the Bible to the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke or John and learn more about God's son, the Savior.You want to talk about pain? Jesus suffered crucifixion, actual pain, for you.

Iowa and Phil,

Phil you are closer to a better understanding. Yes, the government is not an entity, but a collection of people. We the people are the government. Our neglect of civic responsibility has permitted other people to misconstrue our relationship to the system we have agreed to live by. The writers of the Constitution foresaw the dilemma we would be in today and modified Article V to give we the people a legitimate means to restore the balance of political power back to ourselves. Legitimacy is the standing or falling of any system of governance. Lawlessness has grown, but has not the legitimacy which the Constitution describes. This is the issue Americans understand and are politically concerned about. The sea of ignorance in America is vast, but not complete. By the grace of God and persistent outpouring of truth, we can lift America out of ignorance.

You can surrender yourself to a hopeless existence or fight to the death for the cause of freedom, that's your choice. As spoken by Patrick Henry, "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!"

Abraham Lincoln said,"Freedom is the natural condition of the human race, in which the Almighty intended men to live. Those who fight the purpose of the Almighty will not succeed. They always have been, they always will be beaten."

Freedom comes from God and is stated so in the Declaration of Independence. Most Americans are free-born and some are naturalized, believers in God are both. That is, born again of God and purchased with the blood of Christ. Phil, you never could have been good enough when you tried to be a Christian, and I'm sure you did try. To be purchased by God is a humbling experience and eternal freedom is only found there.

18-Jan-23
Bill, I wouldn't say I ever tried to be a Christian. My father drug me to church on Sundays. I participated in different religions until my late 30s when I realized that religion is a social gathering with rules made by men or groups. I've read the Bible and came away with more questions than answers.

And that leads me to my biggest dilemma, how can I be naive enough to believe that a benevolent God would dictate only one religion for everyone in the world? That makes no sense to me. I fully understand that religion has no place in politics today and I resent anyone trying to make laws to appease a religious base.

I have no issue with people believing what they want but please don't use that belief to say they have a moral high ground. Until the people that say they are believers in Christ start acting more as he acted, with compassion, kindness and helping the less fortunate, I only see it as them feeling and acting superior to others.

From: KSflatlander
18-Jan-23
“I have no issue with people believing what they want but please don't use that belief to say they have a moral high ground. Until the people that say they are believers in Christ start acting more as he acted, with compassion, kindness and helping the less fortunate, I only see it as them feeling and acting superior to others,”

Worth repeating.

From: Don T. Lewis
18-Jan-23
Man will always have questions. And the Lord said it’s good to question. Just because somebody claims to be a Christian. Doesn’t mean he is one. All you have to do is look at the way he lives, and I will tell you the story people that are questioning or seeking. Wasn’t America built on the belief of God? God Bless America!

From: 2Wild Bill
18-Jan-23
Phil and KS,

Evidently you both see what you want to see, in both politics and faith in God.

Don,

"Wasn’t America built on the belief of God?"

Read the Declaration of Independence and see for yourself. American rights come not from the government, but from the Creator, and the government was formed to defend those rights.

From: 2Wild Bill
18-Jan-23
Phil and KS, You have to be smaller than a hypocrite to hide behind one.

From: timex
18-Jan-23
2wild bill..... I admire your persistence. I've simply met to many bible toting wolves in sheep's clothing. Perhaps at one time in this countries beginning. One nation under God. Stood for something. These days power & wealth is what runs this country and getting back to the green thing. I guarantee ya that if ya follow the money you'll find plenty of our politicians pushing the green deal are highly invested in just that.

From: Don T. Lewis
18-Jan-23
You make a good point too Todd. A lot of corruption in our government today on both sides. I think that’s how Trump became president Americans were tired of the corruption on both sides. And Trump wasn’t a politician. Were things running better when he was president? Or was it just my imagination?

18-Jan-23
“ Read the Declaration of Independence and see for yourself. American rights come not from the government, but from the Creator, and the government was formed to defend those rights.”

Now that’s a stretch. What the declaration says is people have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Nowhere does it say the government is permitted to make laws influenced by a religion.

From: 2Wild Bill
18-Jan-23
timex, "Our neglect of civic responsibility has permitted other people to misconstrue our relationship to the system we have agreed to live by."

Let me put it this way. Hypocrites misconstrue our relationship to God. Yes there are make-believers, like Phil admits to having been. There at church holding down a pew and carrying a Bible. Pretending for whatever reason, but not born again of God. There's plenty of them, but they are not the majority. Why not? Because God preserves a remnant that perform the work he wants them to do and the testimony of Christ is found across this land and Earth, from the large cities to the smallest town with a church in it.

Interestingly you mention, one nation under God. It was added to the pledge by President Eisenhower in 1954. In 1812, Friedrich Nietzsche announced that "God is dead". The communist party tried to stamp out faith in God and is still working on that after all these years. The Bible tells anyone who cares to look that," “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.” Matthew 24:35

Around the world, daily, people are coming to God through Christ and his finished work on the cross. God is still in the American formula for freedom. George Washington said of the Constitution," the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it on all occasions their effectual support."

No sanction to bigotry and no assistance to persecution, because God and America are kindred.

Phil and KS "prefer" to stand in that long line behind the hypocrite, rather than repent and come to God on his terms. Their situation is an old story and just as true today.

timex, God isn't after your money, but your heart. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:39

18-Jan-23
Please come down from your high horse. I believe differently than you do. That doesn’t make me a hypocrite or make you a better person.

I have nothing to repent for. And I have no need to live my life following the “teachings” of the god you choose. But I do believe you and everyone else has every right to believe what you like.

From: 2Wild Bill
18-Jan-23
Phil, Where does it say our rights come from the government?

"Endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights". Are you suggesting that the government is the Creator?

Rather that a permit "for" government, the Constitution is a restriction of government. The power of government is by the consent of the governed, the people.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, with the Creator, because it doesn't work without the Creator of life and our rights. That's the basic problem America has today,of which you are apparently a part.

From: KSflatlander
18-Jan-23
Beware of the preacher that says he knows the only way (his way) followed by “sign my petition.”

From: fdp
18-Jan-23
I can't imagine how much pressure must come with having been chosen by the Creator or one's own arrogance to pass judgement on the religious preference and spirituality of others.

From: azelkhntr
18-Jan-23
^^^^ So you're saying we aren't allowed to judge religions and spirituality? The whole Green movement is a Gaia worshipping cult.

From: fdp
18-Jan-23
^^^^^^Not saying anything about what YOU are allowed to do. Not my job to make that decision for you.^^^^^^^

From: azelkhntr
18-Jan-23

azelkhntr's Link
I deem these people of the WEF to be lunatics.

18-Jan-23
Bill,

Phil, Where does it say our rights come from the government? “ Endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights". Are you suggesting that the government is the Creator?

I am not suggesting that at all. I go along with the statement as written. But I didn’t see the word God. What if they meant the Native American Creator - The Great Spirit?

Rather that a permit "for" government, the Constitution is a restriction of government. The power of government is by the consent of the governed, the people.

The power of the government is by the consent of the governed. That is why we hold elections to empower people that we choose to make decisions on our behalf.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, with the Creator, because it doesn't work without the Creator of life and our rights. That's the basic problem America has today,of which you are apparently a party.

There is nothing in the document that says that. It only says the Creator endowed us with certain rights. It says nothing about his continuing participation.

One of the basic problems America faces today is the group of religious people that think government is supposed to make laws based on religious beliefs. And they are intolerant of anyone that doesn’t agree with them.

From: 70lbDraw
18-Jan-23
“ What if they meant the Native American Creator - The Great Spirit?”

Good question! …or perhaps Alah, or Buddha, or any of the other hundreds of gods that are out there. Every single religion claims to have ‘the only’ God there is. They can’t all be right.

From: Grey Ghost
18-Jan-23
Good point, 70lbDraw. The last time I checked about 30% of the world's population identify as Christians. That sure leaves a lot of people who have it all wrong, eh?

Matt

From: Don T. Lewis
18-Jan-23
At one time men argued that the earth was flat. Because that’s how it looked to them. But as time passed it was proven that they were wrong. And it was actually sphere shaped. But then again. Some people today still think the earth is flat. Even though it’s been proven that it’s not.

18-Jan-23
There are people that believe in chem trails too. The thing about a round earth and no chem trails is they are easily to prove . God, gods, Supreme Beings......all those are not easy to prove beyond logic and science.

From: Don T. Lewis
18-Jan-23

Don T. Lewis's embedded Photo
Don T. Lewis's embedded Photo
I never heard of Chemtrails. I will have to research that Phil.

From: 70lbDraw
18-Jan-23
Yup, flat earthers and chem-trail believers are the best cheerleaders for climate change. Tucker Carlson had a story about a senator (don’t remember her name) who, when touring a NASA facility, asked if she could see the American flag that was planted on Mars and brought back to earth by the astronauts. Yes, they’re are some real smart ones out there…and they are all capable of producing offspring that they can indoctrinate into their cult!

From: Knifeman
18-Jan-23
Sheila Jackson Lee, the dumbest person in congress. I would love to see her and AOC in a debate.

From: Grey Ghost
18-Jan-23
Speaking of Noah and his ark, that was always a story that seemed a little far-fetched to me in Sunday school. And what's the deal with Moses parting the Red Sea? Was that a climate change thing, or what? Why can't I turn water into wine, damnit?

Matt

From: 2Wild Bill
18-Jan-23
Phil, "What if they meant the Native American Creator ", now you are stretching credibility. The founders followed the morality of the God of the Bible.

"One of the basic problems America faces today is the group of religious people that think government is supposed to make laws based on religious beliefs."

Thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, etc. are all Biblical. Which are you in favor of eliminating because they are associated with believers in God?

"the group of religious people that think government is supposed to make laws based on religious beliefs." You're talking about the founders and calling them the problem with America today? That's "woke talk" and I see you've bought into it.

18-Jan-23
Well said Bill.

One thing is as certain today as it’s always been and will be: It’s the reaction a direct talking Christian, preaching THE teachings of the Bible, brings out the spiritual conditions of some peoples heart. All conditions.

18-Jan-23
Bill, I have no idea what you are talking about. You are twisting things I said to fit your agenda. Please show me where God is mentioned in the Declaration.

Besides, the Declaration isn’t the guiding document for our country. Now the Constitution expressly prohibits establishing or promoting religion. That is clear to everyone except those that refuse to see it that the founding fathers, no matter their personal beliefs, did not want laws made based on religious beliefs.

Believe and practice as you choose. Just don’t force your beliefs in others.

From: KSflatlander
18-Jan-23
“Thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, etc. are all Biblical.“

Those are only Christian morals? I’m pretty sure every civilization prior and after Jesus, and non-Christian countries, generally had/have those same morals/laws.

From: 2Wild Bill
18-Jan-23
Phil, "Please show me where God is mentioned in the Declaration." It is so fraudulent of you to suggest that the Creator and God are not one and the same, repent.

George Washington's First Inaugural Address.

It would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes, and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success the functions allotted to his charge. … No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency. … Since we ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained; and since the preservation of the sacred fire of liberty and the destiny of the republican model of government are justly considered, perhaps, as deeply, as finally, staked on the experiment entrusted to the hands of the American people

Did you note the words: rules, presides, providential aids, enable, his charge. George was referring to Almighty God. Don't you get it that a continued presence was what was expected from the God he knew? No, that doesn't fit your agenda.

19-Jan-23
I already said that the founding fathers had personal opinions (on both sides of the religious issue) but what you posted was a speech, not a governing document for our country. And he never used the word God so we don’t truly know what Almighty Being he referred to. You have your take on it and I have mine.

But none of that answers my questions about where you see God in the Constitution. Because that is our governing document and it clearly says religion should not play any role in laws that are made. Not your religion, not Jewish religion, not Muslim religion…..

From: fdp
19-Jan-23
The word "God" doesn't appear in the U.S. Constitution. And the purpose of the Constitution is not and never was intended to be the same as the purpose of the Declaration of Independence.

The Declaration of Independence was and is exactly what the title implies. It is an explanation or declaration to the people of the country as well as the world of why the United States was declaring it's independence from England. That was step 1 effectively in the establishment of a new country.

The U. S. Constitution was created as (as has been mentioned) the "guiding document" of this new country. And based on the world history of religious persecution and intolerance that was prevalent even then, the framers chose to allow each individual to make their own decisions about religion. They were very smart fella's. That was step 2.

Given the amount of time that passed between the signing of the Declaration of Independence and the ratification of the Constitution, there was a lot of thought put into it and it was intentionally crafted to be religiously neutral.

It really isn't complicated until people start trying to bend the content of the document to fit their own personal agenda.

From: 2Wild Bill
19-Jan-23
The Lord’s Day - in the Constitution Interestingly the Article I, Section 7 stated that “any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it” establishing Sunday as a day that the federal government would not be open. If the foundation of this nation had been Muslim then it might have been Friday or if by Jewish influence, we might expect the government would shut down on Saturday. If there were no Christian influence, would there even be a day of rest at all? Instead, what we see is that Sunday is singled out specifically and there can be no doubt that it was due to the observance of the Lord’s Day.

The Lord’s Name The U.S. Constitution does reference the Lord and clearly, this is the Lord God for there is no doubt even with the way they dated their document as we read in the close of the Constitution in Article VII that this was “Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America” showing both the Lord’s name and also in specifying the year in which our Lord was born into human flesh and by which we date our years. During George Washington’s first Proclamation as President he said “it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor.” [2] Strange talk for an unbeliever, if he were. The most likely reason that God doesn’t appear by name in the Articles of Confederation was because it does not appear in the Preamble in the Articles of Confederation because that document was what they based the Constitution on. It is not hard to see that the fundamental principles and laws of our nation were based upon the Ten Commandments and the ethics of Jesus Christ.

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures(In Phil's case, the Constitution) nor the power of God." Matthew 22:29

From: fdp
19-Jan-23
"It really isn't complicated until people start trying to bend the content of the document to fit their own personal agenda." What George Washington said has exactly -0- to do with the Constitutional discussion that is taking place. What does this mean? "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Seems pretty clear.

19-Jan-23
Please spare me from using scripture to defend your position. Ramblings from someone writing about things that happened hundreds of years prior their lifetime, then translated who knows how many times trying to fit a long-forgotten language into a modern one holds little validity for me.

Using your logic, observing Martin Luther King by giving employees a day off is a religious holiday?. I doubt anything I say would ever change your mind because you seem so ingrained in believing a personal philosophy about religion but if you would take ten minutes and look at it from the other viewpoints it would be clear to you that our government was never intended to be directed by a religion. In fact, it was intended to protect citizens from that very thing.

From: 2Wild Bill
19-Jan-23
Phil, I learned a few year back when you and I discussed Ronald Reagan's conservatism that you are a revisionist, but really that is a polite term for liar. You see what you want to see because you have an agenda.

From: azelkhntr
19-Jan-23
If the US is or was a Christian Nation, how did we come to be predominantly ruled over by the jews? As far as the green thing goes has anyone noticed the changes in the atmosphere and the appearance of our Sun?

From: Two Feathers
19-Jan-23
Gen 8, 20-22 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

19-Jan-23
Now Bill, you know it's against the rules to personally insult people in the forum. But I've seen this from you and others. When you can't defend your position you resort to name-calling. That's a shame.

Bottom line here is no matter how much you try to spin it, our country's governing document expressly forbids permitting religion to be used in creating laws. I'm not lying about that. I'm not being a revisionist about that. It's a fact that you tend to overlook.

From: azelkhntr
19-Jan-23
Amendment 1 to the US Constitution. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" As a Free person you're by nature allowed to follow any belief or religion you care to. You're not however allowed to impose that belief or religion on others. Thank GOD.

19-Jan-23
The truth cuts like a razor blade.

From: timex
19-Jan-23
The 9th & 10th dead Whales have washed ashore this week. One in MD the other in NC. High powered sea bed sonar mapping for suitable offshore wind farm locations has been temporarily suspended.

From: timex
19-Jan-23

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
2 more not sure where

From: grizz
19-Jan-23
Too bad the liberals aren’t smarter than the whales they’re killing. Might not have happened.

From: 70lbDraw
19-Jan-23
When will we start hearing the lies about how the whales died? They sure as hell won’t admit that going green to save the planet is killing the planets wildlife.

From: TGbow
19-Jan-23
Don't worry, the leftist know what they're doing..they just need another giant tax increase so they can set up the Leftist Utopia..anyone that doesn't go along with that don't care about the planet..lot of folks are making money off the green deal but that doesn't count. Remember Roosevelt's Great Society? They have our best interest at heart. Don't worry..between the Dems n the Republicans we won't have to worry about a thing...because we won't have any say so about anything to begin with. Make your choice..Marxism or Facsism

From: KSflatlander
19-Jan-23

KSflatlander's Link
Who is lying? Maybe you all should read a little and reserve judgement…but you won’t because it fits your narrative. Just like azelkhntr.

They haven’t even investigated the carcasses yet. They do know that fishing and boats have killed 40% of those they could examine since 2016. I sure don’t hear Timex or anyone else calling for the end of commercial fishing.

I haven’t seen any information about the cause but why would that matter? Oh yeah because it’s a NOAA conspiracy.

Timex- If you’re so certain that they killed an endangered whale and you have all the evidence then take it to USFWS/NOAA law enforcement and they can be charged with a felony. Shouldn’t be hard. The ESA has real legal teeth.

It’s just so exhausting…

From: azelkhntr
19-Jan-23
Sperm whales are benthonic hunters. It is very weird to have them beach themselves. Blaming wind power is nonsense. Those windmills are in shallow seas. On a side note, if I had come across one on the shingle, I'd be pulling teeth and slicing a few choice cuts out of it.

From: Babysaph
19-Jan-23
Guys none of this matters. When the good Lord comes back it will all be gone anyway. I am not worrying about it.

From: 70lbDraw
19-Jan-23
“I haven’t seen any information about the cause but why would that matter? Oh yeah because it’s a NOAA conspiracy.”

Conspiracy, conspiracy, conspiracy! Everything the bowlibs have called a conspiracy in the last 2 years, have shown to be anything but. Ineffective vaccine a conspiracy. Except it isn’t a conspiracy, it has various tidbits of truth to it. The border issue is a conspiracy. But it’s actually a real issue. You called the censorship to change the election, Hunter Bidens laptop, and COVID origin, a conspiracy. But it really isn’t a conspiracy.

The China Joe admin is completely killing this country’s economy, security, financial stability, and social stability. Look around you…it’s not a conspiracy. This country is going down the drain because the democrats are only in it to line their own pockets. How you can sit back and defend the stupidity is totally beyond me. But what do I know, I voted for Trump. By the way, we’re still waiting to see him led away in manacles. Ain’t that right Dana C? You probably agree that china joes document dump was an innocent mistake… since Trump is the true criminal here. Lol!

Wait til Kamala takes over. She’ll make it all better!!!

From: timex
20-Jan-23
Ksflatlander....... I have been offshore fishing in MD, VA, NC waters in outboard and sportfish boats for 30 plus years myself personally have never hit a porpoise or whale nor personally know anyone that has. Does it happen, yes

10 plus whale's recently during the winter months when there's nothing to catch cause the waters to cold and nobody is fishing definitely not.

Nice try brother but that's a swing and a miss for you.

From: shade mt
20-Jan-23
i don't believe even Jesus himself debated to much....he offered it, your choice take it or leave it...nobody is ever going to get beaten into heaven... And why is climate change a religious or political matter?

I stated above....it has been said in the Bible the earth will be destroyed by fire. I believe that. When or the exact conditions at the time...i do not know. I do know one thing.....i don't put much faith in the mentality of people that think its normal or ok to practice some of the "abnormality's" so prevalent in our culture today...including any great revelations on climate change.

Or a leader that spouts off about "NO MORE DRILLING"...or says he's going to eliminate fossil fuel by such and such a date, all the while struggling to make a speech from a teleprompter. Or a president of a college that promotes critical race theory, and "woke"...and turns right around and singles people out and separates them as "people of color"....??

You folks follow who you want....believe what you want....frankly i want firmly rooted and planted in common sense.....every time i turn on the news, i see some crazy stuff.....TV?...good grief.... some commercials?.....lol....then tell me there is no God, and its ok that those two guys are smooching....And lets all jump on the climate change bus.

Things are going to be what they are....You make the bed you sleep in.... And why are all these climate change quacks still flying in airplanes?....and being driven in their limo's?

From: timex
20-Jan-23

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
Ksflatlander......... Currently the only fishing is wayyyyyyy to the south , see the warm Gulfstream water off the NC coast. They've been catching giant bluefin there. 20 were cought on wed.

Perhaps dragging for cod off the new England coast but nothing along the Delmarva coast in that cold 50 degree water

Kinda hard for a fishing boat that isn't there to kill a whale don't ya think.

From: timex
20-Jan-23
Shade .......

I agree & disagree. The crap on tv is eye opening for sure.

Are humans affecting this planet negatively ? I believe so.

Is there anything were gonna do to change that ?

It seems to me that there's not much common cents middle ground thinking on the subject.

It's either ignore it completely with zero concerns for our children's, children's, children's future.

Or the other extreme of zero fossil fuel usage by 2050 which is just insanely unrealistic.

Or we can just say screw it, it's in god's hands and I'm just gonna live my life and what ever happens, happens !!!

From: KSflatlander
20-Jan-23

KSflatlander's Link
“The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration said so far offshore wind survey work has not been found to be the cause of the whales deaths. But after a seventh whale washed ashore in Brigantine, in what officials later said was likely from a vessel strike, Gov. Phil Murphy assured an investigation was underway, while noting that pre-construction of offshore wind turbines would keep going.

So far, no evidence has tied offshore wind development to the humpback and sperm whale deaths — five of which have been reported in New Jersey — and it remains unclear if seven whale deaths in just over a month is atypical, some activists and officials said. Some organizers have suspected survey work — including sonar mapping and increased vessel activity — could be having a fatal impact on marine life. However, as of now state and federal agencies have not drawn a connection.“

“ They’re doing forensic tests on the carcasses, which could say if its a) diseased, b) trauma or some unknown factor which could be hard to trace,” said Farrell.

While Farrell declined to speculate on other causes of death before investigations are concluded, he said vessel traffic in and around New Jersey continues to be high, as are humpback whale sightings.”

“ The Marine Mammal Stranding Center, which responds to whale strandings in New Jersey, deferred comment Tuesday to NOAA. On Sunday, in an update on a necropsy performed on the recent whale to wash up in Brigantine, the center said the whale had blunt trauma injuries that appeared to indicate it was struck by a vessel.

“Although there has been speculation about whether these whale deaths are linked to wind energy development, at this point no whale mortality has been attributed to offshore wind activities,” the center said in a summary of the examination performed on the dead whale.”

From: KSflatlander
20-Jan-23

KSflatlander's Link
So there has only been one necropsy so far and the preliminary cause of death is blunt trauma.

“Nice try brother but that's a swing and a miss for you”

Nah, brother I’m not even swinging a bat. I waiting for results of the necropsy before I say anything. You, you’re saying that sonar from a wind farm construction killed all 7 of these whales as fact. Your data…you have been fishing in the area. At least 1 of the 7 whales shows evidence of possible boat strike. The data is an actual necropsy. However, it’s preliminary. We don’t know what killed them yet.

You’re swinging incessantly before the pitcher even winds up.

The only thing you are actually doing is knowingly and willingly spreading misinformation just like azelkhntr. No different

Freaking use your brain and do a little research. At least wait until there’s some actual information.

From: timex
20-Jan-23
Interesting....... more high powered seafloor bottom surveying than ever just happens to coincide with more dead whale's than I can remember along our coast. But hey what do I know right.

From: KSflatlander
20-Jan-23
“Correlation does not imply causation- the inability to legitimately deduce a cause-and-effect relationship between two events or variables solely on the basis of an observed association or correlation between them.”

20-Jan-23
Ha! ha. Another edumucated expert telling people the answers.

It amazes me how people just run with the popular narrative.

If you are ocean fishing off the Atlantic coast today, you’d better be in the Gulf Stream or in southern waters. Everyone knows this that’s wet one line off shore fishing. But, the popular narrative is it’s boats killing the whales.

FEIW, the reason the OBX is so popular is due to its location to the warm Gulf Stream. It’s the farthest north the Gulf Stream gets close enough to run and fish in a boat by the day.

But, it’s easy to say boats killed those whales. It didn’t happen like that this time.

From: timex
20-Jan-23

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo
Zoom in, look closely. Do you see any propeller marks or blunt force trauma. Think about this. When you get an x-ray they cover you with a lead blanket to protect unaffected areas.

Now imagine sonar powerful enough to penitrate 100s of feet of salt water then determine the makeup and density of the sea floor bottom mud,rock,sand, etc town to I honestly don't know how deep. You seriously believe this doesn't affect marine mammals. I can't believe your naive enough to believe big brother when big brother has billions in proffets to be made

From: KSflatlander
20-Jan-23
“Ha! ha. Another edumucated expert telling people the answers.”

I don’t think the experts doing the necropsies have provided any answers. That’s the point but of course you don’t get that.

“I can't believe you’re naive enough to believe big brother when big brother has billions in proffets to be made.”

70lbs- There’s your conspiracy, conspiracy, conspiracy.

Timex- please tell me the power output and model of sonar being used. Also, tell me exactly how many billions the biologists doing the necropsies are making off this. Maybe you should go work for NOAA because they will be amazed at how you can determine the cause of death of whales from a drone photo for which you don’t even know the source. I’m sure you will make billions.

From: Michael
20-Jan-23
What kind of sonar could be killing whales that is used by wind developers? Fisherman and the Navy have been using sonar for ever. Lots of new technology in sonar but it’s still just sound waves.

From: GUTPILEPA
20-Jan-23
100% Right KSflatlander

From: spike78
20-Jan-23
I’m predicting Unknown cause of death just like the vaccine deaths.

From: Grey Ghost
20-Jan-23

Grey Ghost's Link
Here's an interesting article from Scientific America on the affects of sonar on marine life.

"Unfortunately for many whales, dolphins and other marine life, the use of underwater sonar (short for sound navigation and ranging) can lead to injury and even death. Sonar systems—first developed by the U.S. Navy to detect enemy submarines—generate slow-rolling sound waves topping out at around 235 decibels; the world’s loudest rock bands top out at only 130. These sound waves can travel for hundreds of miles under water, and can retain an intensity of 140 decibels as far as 300 miles from their source. These rolling walls of noise are no doubt too much for some marine wildlife. While little is known about any direct physiological effects of sonar waves on marine species, evidence shows that whales will swim hundreds of miles, rapidly change their depth (sometime leading to bleeding from the eyes and ears), and even beach themselves to get away from the sounds of sonar."

Matt

From: 70lbDraw
20-Jan-23
“70lbs- There’s your conspiracy, conspiracy, conspiracy.”

KS, are you saying times is wrong when he says: “I can't believe you’re naive enough to believe big brother when big brother has billions in proffets to be made.”?

If that’s your opinion, then you need to pay closer attention to what the Biden cartel is really focusing on. Here’s a hint… it’s not the left or right side of the American people they serve, it’s themselves.

From: KSflatlander
20-Jan-23
I didn’t say Timex was wrong at all. I said that he is stating his opinion as fact when it clearly isn’t. That is misinformation. He has no info except dead whales and there are many things that cause that. Oh yeah, his other evidence is that he’s fished in the ocean so he knows. We do know that boat collision and entanglement in fishing gear are some of the leading causes of whale fatalities. I don’t see his outrage with boats and fishing. Why? Because of his bias against offshore wind farms.

I don’t know anything about sonar being used at this wind farm he is talking about and neither does he. I don’t know whether the sonar he’s talking about it can kill whales either. We don’t even know I’d sonar surveys were being conducted at the time and neither does he.

We do know that preliminary results on one of the whales he’s talking about was injured by blunt force trauma.

He’s making wild accusations without any real evidence. If you don’t see that then it’s because you don’t want to.

He may be right about the other 6 whales. Let the experts figure it out. But that doesn’t matter because if it’s not the predetermined cause Timex thinks it is he will just say it’s a conspiracy.

20-Jan-23
KSFlatlander, We both know you're never going to get them to understand or to use logic and common sense when there's a good conspiracy theory out there.

From: timex
20-Jan-23
Y'all are just to funny. First off I'm not saying a whale is more important than the progression of humanity. Now that said I live here folks and there's been a significant increase in the dead beached whales since this offshore wind farm sea floor surveying has been conducted, that's a fact. And not a slight increase a dramatic increase.

Furthermore I'm not educated in offshore wind farm production or maintenance and eventually the energy it can produce. But I do know the logistics of offshore wind farms are huge. The initial expenses are huge the vessels that service the ones off of VA beach are huge catamaran boats. And at this point it's nothing but a huge experiment.

From: azelkhntr
20-Jan-23
What is in the stomachs of these 2?

From: 70lbDraw
20-Jan-23
“That is misinformation.”

Really? You just stated that you don’t know any more about the subject than he does. But I’d be willing to bet he knows more since he spends more time there. Claiming misinformation is simply another way of saying that you can’t win the argument and you refuse to hear other people’s opinions due to your lack of knowledge on the subject. The liberal term of misinformation is a cop out! If you don’t have the information to debate a topic, you can simply admit it, instead of discrediting others that may actually know something about the subject.

“I don’t see his outrage with boats and fishing. Why? Because of his bias against offshore wind farms.”

Everyone I know has bias against offshore wind farms. They’re ugly, and they don’t produce enough electricity to justify putting thousands of them out there, and killing the marine habitat.

“If you don’t see that then it’s because you don’t want to.”

Uh no, it’s because when I see something that seems to be a coincidence, I contemplate the possibilities. it’s human nature to speculate.

“We both know you're never going to get them to understand or to use logic and common sense when there's a good conspiracy theory out there.”

What do liberals know about logic and common sense? As soon as someone threatens the liberal agenda, logic and common sense go out the window, and are replaced with lies and half truths.

You all lost what little credibility you had when it was discovered that Twitter weaponized the FBI to give the Dems an advantage. You believe everything they tell you and nothing that you actually witness, as long as Trump is being suppressed from your viewpoint.

We don’t agree politically, and we’ve never met face to face, but I know you’re a lot smarter than that. Problem is you think everyone that disagrees with you is a gullible fool. It gets old fast. Before the term misinformation was introduced, we used to have some good debates here. Now it’s nothing but arguments and name calling. It gets old fast!

From: 70lbDraw
20-Jan-23
Great post Grey Ghost! There’s oodles of information and documentation on the subject.

I’d always heard that dolphins and whales will actually protect a swimmer from predators, and drowning. I never saw proof of it until I joined the Navy. I was stationed on a guided missile destroyer. We were training off the coast of San Diego. They’d bring the ship to full speed and conduct a man overboard drill by tossing a floating dummy in the water. The goal was to rescue the man as quickly as possible. Once the dummy goes in the water, it takes a little time to slow down and circle back to locate him. As we approached the dummy, it was surrounded by a pod of pilot whales. The captain ordered a full stop, and a temporary disabling of the ships sonar. We retrieved the dummy and waited until the whales left before continuing on with our mission. I asked why the sonar was disabled and was told it was a law to disable it if there were whales in a certain vicinity of the ship. That was in 1990, so I know it’s been an active topic for many years. Sharks can smell a drop of blood in the water from miles away. Why is it such a conspiracy to think that whales are affected by sonar waves?

From: KSflatlander
20-Jan-23
He said the sonar from the wind farm killed the whales (fact statement). That is misinformation as that is not a fact at this time. If you don’t like it then that’s on you.

From: Grey Ghost
20-Jan-23
70, if I was a whale, I'd probably beach myself, too, to get away from a 235 decibel wave of noise. I never cared for concerts for that same reason. I don't understand why they have to play the music so damn loud. That said, I don't think any of us actually knows what killed those whales. Sonar seems as plausible as any reason, to me, but as KS points out its just speculation at this point.

Matt

From: 70lbDraw
21-Jan-23
“He said the sonar from the wind farm killed the whales (fact statement). That is misinformation as that is not a fact at this time. If you don’t like it then that’s on you.”

He misspoke; big difference. You knew exactly what he was referring to, but took advantage of his mistake.

Hey, who do I sound like?!

How do you spend so much time on ‘misinformation’? You’re basically saying that you have never personally said, or, expressed anything to anyone that was not 100% verifiable, and scientifically accurate in your lifetime?

Yeah, I know, sounds ridiculous right?! That could be our new conspiracy!

So I’m curious. Did you read GG’s article? Have you researched the topic? It’s like the rest of the recent theories you complain about, it’s s plausible if not indisputable. C’mon man!!

From: KSflatlander
21-Jan-23

KSflatlander's Link
I didn’t say it wasn’t possible. I said there’s no evidence that makes it a fact that sonar used in preconstruction surveys cause whale fatalities.

The link is the Biological Assessment conducted for these types of activities. Notice section 5.1 and Table 27. There are conditions (best management practices; BMPs) that offshore wind companies must follow as part of their lease agreements. BMPs for sonar use that minute impacts to whales. They include frequency use, intensity, and seasonal use of sonar among other required conditions. The point is that sonar surveys are regulated to protect marine mammals. Regulations based on scientific studies on the effects of sonar on marine life.

Is it plausible that a company violated the lease conditions and injured whales. Yes. Is it plausible that there are many other causes (disease, vessel collisions, entanglement) of whale deaths. Yes. But just because it’s possible or plausible doesn’t make it so.

They know the cause of death of one whale and it was blunt force trauma. See link above. IMO it is irresponsible of a critical thinking adult to conclude, without any evidence, that sonar killed them. We will know the results of the necropsy so why not wait for the facts?

We have known sonar can harm or kill marine life since the 1950s. That’s why the use is regulated.

If the survey sonar did cause the death then someone is probably pretty nervous right now as one of the whales that washed up was a federal endangered species. If they violated regulations or the lease conditions and killed an endangered species then jail time could be an outcome. At a minimum, their company will be bankrupt. Good luck with marketing your services in the future with that on your resume.

Drawing conclusions based on weak speculation is a big part of the cause of division in our country IMO.

From: shade mt
21-Jan-23
Timex...i apologize if i came off as ..."let come what may its in Gods hands"

I actually believe we SHOULD be taking care of our earth, water and air...being good stewards. However, i also believe we put way to much faith in leadership and authority, that is leading in the WRONG direction.

We have a habit of trying to fix one problem, and creating another. First off where is all the funding for this climate change stuff coming from?...who will pay for all the 60,000$ new gasoline pickups...when we convert to electric scooters? And what about that busy gas station in the morning when people are pulling in and out of the pumps every couple minutes, now all forced to wait till their new electric buggy charges? We are looking at high gas prices, 6.00 a dozen eggs, and inflation like we have not seen in decades, and a national deficit, that would cost every person nearly $280,000 dollars to fix. All a result of supposed educated men with soft hands and 3 piece suits, leading this country. In one office of our gov't, we got men who have filled their pockets, and lied, countless numbers of times squawking about climate change and stopping drilling etc...covering up for a bum of a crack head son....And in another office we have men dressed like women, and waving rainbow flags.... AND YOU FOLKS LISTEN TO THEM !!!......are ya all nuts?

From: GUTPILEPA
21-Jan-23
AMEN Amen Amen SHADE MT

From: timex
21-Jan-23
Ksflatlander......... Here's a hypothetical scenario. A company obtains a large tract of land out west somewhere that I have hunted for 30 years. This land has an interstate on one border. The average elk, mule deer, vehicle collisions on the interstate are 1 a week. This company starts doing timber value assessments disturbing the wildlife on this tract of land and the vehicle- animal collisions on the interstate go up dramatically. The company doing the timber survey says ,we didn't do it, the environmentalist use the killed animals as reason to stop the possible logging of this land, and the timber company that stands to make millions could care less about the increase of killed elk- mule deer.

Then here comes ...me-you...living on the other side of the country with ...mine -your... opinion on the subject ...

You don't live here, it's not on your local news every night , it doesn't affect where you hunt or in this case fish. And yet you seam to have such a strong knowledge and opinion of what's happening here.

From: KSflatlander
21-Jan-23
I don’t have much knowledge that’s why I’ve posted sources. My only opinion is that there isn’t enough information to draw any factual conclusions.

You don’t know for a fact that sonar from a wind project killed those whales. Do you? Did you misspeak like 70lbs said? Do you know the type of sonar used? Sonar intensity? Sonar frequency? Do you know the day the whale died? So you know if they used a sonar that could kill a whale (which is illegal) on that day? Was the military using sonar in the area that day? Do you know anything for fact except a friend told you a rumor about sonar being done and whales being beached?

Stop passing off opinion and hyperbole as fact and you won’t get called out.

I hear this kind of stuff in my business all the time. Things like:

You all installed that pipeline and now my chickens won’t lay eggs.

You built that road 2 miles away now my cow won’t give milk.

You put up those turbines and it caused my cat to stop giving kittens.

From: Grey Ghost
21-Jan-23
It's interesting to note that oil and gas companies use the same sonar surveying equipment for oil exploration, only its on a larger, noisier scale than wind farms. I think it's fair to say the outrage over these dying whales is based more on type of energy production that is being blamed for it.

Matt

From: timex
21-Jan-23
I have not heard definitively what has killed the whale's.

Let me remind you that this is government funded research.....And the organization doing the biopsy to determine the whale's mortality are also government funded!!!

What I do know is that there's been more dead whale's in the last 6 months than in the previous 6 yeast and this just happens to coincide with the recent offshore seafloor sonar mapping in search of suitable wind farm locations.

It's pretty evident at this point that it's not just a coincidence that the two are somehow related.

And also pretty evident at this point that the coincidence couldn't be pounded into your head with a hammer !!!

From: KSflatlander
21-Jan-23

From: Grey Ghost
21-Jan-23
Timex, would you be equally upset over the dead whales if they were doing oil exploration instead of wind farms?

Matt

From: timex
21-Jan-23
If it looks like a turd and smells like a turd it's probably a turd.... You my friend. """evidently""" Trust our government more than your eyes, nose, and common sense !!!

From: KSflatlander
21-Jan-23

KSflatlander's Link
“What I do know is that there's been more dead whale's in the last 6 months than in the previous 6 yeast and this just happens to coincide with the recent offshore seafloor sonar mapping in search of suitable wind farm locations.”

There you go again. There has been 177 humpback beaching on the east coast in the last 6 years. That’s only one species. 40% were due to boat strike or fishing gear entanglement. 60% were undetermined. So again you make statements as fact when it isn’t true.

From: 70lbDraw
21-Jan-23
“I said there’s no evidence that makes it a fact that sonar used in preconstruction surveys cause whale fatalities.”

I never claimed it was a ‘fact’. But if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it deserves consideration.

shademt just explained it in a pretty clear and concise statement. I’m sure you disagree with him, but that’s only because China Joe told you so.

KS, are you in support of off shore wind farms, or do you have any concerns with them?

From: KSflatlander
21-Jan-23
I never said you made the claim. Timex did. But you are defending it.

I really don’t have an opinion on offshore wind because I don’t live there. Absolutely there are concerns. I have empathy for anyone who lives off the beachfront and bought the property for the views. That’s a real issue IMO. There will be wildlife impacts no doubt. I probably wouldn’t like it either. I get why Timex doesn’t want them but that’s no excuse to make up stuff and pass it off as fact.

I was talking to a landowner at a wind project one time. He was upset about the potential noise of the turbines. I mean he was pissed. He had to pause several times when talking to me because he lived next to a railroad track and a train came by. He also lived within earshot of a highway.

From: 70lbDraw
21-Jan-23
Google the term ‘LRAD’ and read the Wikipedia information about it. It’s the human equivalent of what marine life might experience from certain sonar waves. Then share your thoughts on it.

From: azelkhntr
21-Jan-23
Lot of blubbering about whales in here.

From: Grey Ghost
21-Jan-23
70lbDraw, I'll ask you the same question that Timex didn't answer. Would you be equally upset over the dead whales if they were doing oil exploration instead of wind farms? They both use sonar surveying equipment, only the oil equipment is larger and potentially more damaging to marine life.

Matt

From: KSflatlander
21-Jan-23
70lbs- I’m aware of Havana syndrome and the effects on living organisms including humans. I’ll ask you. What was the frequency and intensity of sonar used in those sonar studies?

Did you read the biological assessment and the leasing condition regarding sonar required to minimize impacts to wildlife?

I’m interested to see what the necropsies come up with. They know the physiologically effects of sonar. They will be able to tell if the carcasses aren’t too decomposed.

From: timex
21-Jan-23
Gg.....for me personally it's not the whale's. There's been a drastic decline in the inshore fishing in recent years. It's believed by many including myself that although the sonar probably doesn't harm the bait fish species they will leave the area to avoid it. No bait fish = no predator fish.

From: Grey Ghost
21-Jan-23
Timex, that didn't really answer my question. Would you be concerned about the marine life and fishing if they were doing oil exploration instead of wind farm exploration?

Matt

From: Orion
21-Jan-23
I do know the fishing is usually excellent around off shore oil rigs

From: Grey Ghost
21-Jan-23
Fishing is usually excellent around any man-made structures whether it's oil rigs, ship wrecks, bridges, causeways, piers, etc... Why would't the same apply to windmills?

From: Orion
21-Jan-23
I never said it wouldn't apply to windmills. I just love how oil exploration always gets a bad wrap but the so called green energy doesn't, even though the offshore processes are basically the same

From: Grey Ghost
21-Jan-23
I’m not advocating for wind farms in our coastal waters. I’m just pointing out the apparent hypocrisy of some people who claim to be concerned for marine life with respect to wind farms, but don’t seem to have the same concern with respect to oil exploration and drilling.

From: 70lbDraw
21-Jan-23
“Would you be equally upset over the dead whales if they were doing oil exploration instead of wind farms?”

It’s a concern regardless of the numerous potential causes for it happening. I don’t put the blame on one thing and ignore the other. It’s a complex yet interesting problem.

There was a tv show some time ago called Sea Sheapard. A bunch of activist trying to stop commercial whaling. I support their mission, but the way they go about it is ignorant and dangerous. Basically a crew of college kids with little, to no, sea fairing experience whatsoever. Great concept, with poor execution.

In short, yes, it bothers me regardless of the reason. The oil rigs are a problem, but wind farms will likely prove to increase the issues tenfold.

Someone recently mentioned the potential flipping of the earths magnetic field. Who’s to say that it’s not related to a natural occurrence, and we have no control over it? Our oceans and all that inhabit them are susceptible to a delicate balance of various aspects.

Not sure if that answers your question or not.

From: Grey Ghost
21-Jan-23
It was really a "yes" or "no" question. I'll take your lengthy response as a yes. I agree, we should be concerned about our marine life regardless of what type of energy exploration and production is involved.

Matt

From: 8point
21-Jan-23
Good reading and I hesitated to chime in, but when I hit the comments about simple minded Joe outlawing gas stoves, it hit a nerve. Granted Biden didn't issue an opinion, but the idea is out there. The New York governor has a bill that would outlaw the SALE of fossil fuel appliances, stoves heaters etc. by 2030, and these fools will pass it. Unless I'm mistaken, California has similar ideas in the mill. Sure there is climate change, in the 60, it was common to have minus 60 ambient in Fairbanks, now if it gets down to minus 40 over the course of the winter, it's exceptional. Back here in old NY, in 95 I walked in 12 inches of snow on opening day of gun season the week before Thanksgiving. This year we have maybe an inch the 3rd week in January. I'm of the camp that we as humans aren't the cause, and there are many scientists who would agree, but even if we contributed, why not solve the problem with industry creating alternate methods to extract and use rather than a complete abandonment of our national treasures. I think that it doesn't fit the political plan for a consolidation of power in a new world order.

From: timex
21-Jan-23
Gg.......I could care less what the seafloor mapping research is for wind oil whatever. There used to be great fishing on what we call the inshore lumps. These days that fishing sucks. We're now having to run 60 miles to the continental shelf or canyons to catch fish.

Why the bait fish and subsequent predators that feed on them have left is a discussion in itself with lots of opinions. The sonar boats are just one opinion.

From: Grey Ghost
21-Jan-23
Timex, it's not just in your area. I've noticed the decline in fishing quality from our western waters to the Everglades and many places in-between. Rivers that we used to catch 30-50 trout per day, with several over 20 inches, now produce maybe 6-10 fish per day, and 20 inchers are rare. Just in the last 6 years, I've noticed the tarpon fishing around Sanibel has declined, too. It was common for us to hook up with at least 10 poons before noon, and we rarely got skunked. Now, getting skunked is the usual, and 2-3 hookups is considered a great day.

It concerns me enough that the only organization I contribute to is called Captains For Clean Water. If you're not familiar with them, look them up. They are doing some fantastic work aimed at restoring the estuaries in South Florida.

Matt

From: 70lbDraw
21-Jan-23
Matt, just a side note. While in the Navy, we’d regularly steam out past the 50 mile marker. Suddenly the water changes color to more of a clear blue than murkey green. Right up until you see what looks like a mile wide endless river of trash, plastic, and junk just floating around! It follows the current as far as the eye can see and the fish and turtles use it for cover. It’s a helluva sight but it’s a sad reminder that man can be so ignorant. The Honk Kong Harbor is just as bad in itself!

From: Grey Ghost
21-Jan-23
Bryan, it has always disgusted me how careless humans are with trash. The mile wide river of garbage you mentioned doesn't surprise me at all, it just depresses me.

I think what depresses me even more is that anything aimed at improving our environment has become synonymous with left-wing politics to some people. I'd like to think that most outdoorsman are genuinely concerned about our environment and support any common sense measures to protect it. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case. Environmentalism has become a negative concept to the political right, and that disappoints and frustrates me.

Matt

From: scentman
21-Jan-23
I'm late to the conversation, but I would say we all should agree on one thing... globaly, man has really messed things up.

21-Jan-23
I don’t agree at all.

From: Rocky D
21-Jan-23
“ I think what depresses me even more is that anything aimed at improving our environment has become synonymous with left-wing politics to some people. I'd like to think that most outdoorsman are genuinely concerned about our environment and support any common sense measures to protect it. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case. Environmentalism has become a negative concept to the political right, and that disappoints and frustrates me.”

GG, weaponize anything and it will become a negative concept!

From: timex
21-Jan-23
It was the late 90s I was working at home Depot in Manassas VA. This is 30 minutes west of northern VA. The state environmental folks showed up and said the local creeks, streams, ponds, impoundments, lakes, etc. We're literally off the charts with nitrogen, phosphate, potassium levels and starting immediately we needed to stop selling winter, spring, summer, fall, fertilizer and start recommending soil testing with the local agg extension office.

No sooner than the state representatives left, the store manager said we have sales quota's to meet or exceed and he expected just that to be done.

All those electric green lawns in all those high dollar neighborhoods around every city come at an extremely high cost to the environment.

Folks that don't know better want to blame the farmers. I worked in the farm industry and trust me, farmers are religious about soil testing and not spending a penny more than required on fertilizer to grow a certain crop.

From: Grey Ghost
21-Jan-23
Exactly, Rocky.

From: 70lbDraw
21-Jan-23
I just want to know what material EV tires will be made of? You know, when we cancel all petroleum products.

21-Jan-23
I don’t recall ever hearing any reasonable politician say the goal is to cancel all petroleum products. That’s just fear-mongering.

From: Rocky D
22-Jan-23
“ That’s just fear-mongering.”

I think that our fears are justified based on supposed Russian collusion, Covid mandates, critical race theory, 2020 peaceful protest, and explicit sex education including drag shows for kids!

Oh yeah and I forgot that I have not ever discussed business with my son!

I could go on but I want!

From: KSflatlander
22-Jan-23
Rocky- you would be a lot happier person if you would lay off the right wing propaganda news.

From: timex
22-Jan-23
I want to see electric powered ships and airplanes

From: Rocky D
22-Jan-23
KS, nothing that I have mentioned that can’t be verified by the village idiot.

You are always calling out people for bias and you real of it!

Your objectivity is long gone!

You have bought into constantly calling out misinformation while historically supporting the the Democratic narrative which has been proven to be filled with misinformation!

Your constant anti conspiracy rhetoric is continuing to support the narrative!

From: Bowbender
22-Jan-23
Well....not much to add. Not an expert in wind power, sonar, off-shore fishing, whales....but I do know this. Whenever I see "supporting data" that's linked to a xxxx.gov.xxx website,, let's just say I have about as much faith in the non-bias & non predetermined outcome nature of the report as I do Lucy holding the football for me.

From: KSflatlander
22-Jan-23

KSflatlander's Link
“On Thursday, company officials said they are not using sound to map the sea floor, and have not used sound in any project since last summer.”

How is sonar from preconstruction surveys for an offshore wind farm development killing whales when they haven’t used them since last summer? In addition, the sonar (frequency and intensity) being used is not known to kill whales. Lastly, using sonar that could kill whales is not permitted as a condition of the lease agreement. If anyone has any sources that says otherwise I’d love to see it.

Oh I forgot. Tucker Carlson said it was the wind farms fault.

22-Jan-23
Rocky, you have to be kidding.

“ I think that our fears are justified based on supposed Russian collusion, Covid mandates, critical race theory, 2020 peaceful protest, and explicit sex education including drag shows for kids!”

It was proven there was Russian collusion and there are several people from Trump’s campaign in jail for it. Despite the propaganda you were fed Covid mandates saved lives. Yes, at an economic cost but the economic cost could have been much greater. There was a riot and attack on the capitol and hundreds were charged and convicted for it. Explicit sex education? LOL. Drag shows for kids? We grew up watching cartoon and movie characters in drag. CRT? It’s clear you don’t even know what that is. Most people just call it history.

From: timex
22-Jan-23
Ksflatlander.....I sincerely pitty you, there's no doubt that you would argue the color of the sky.

I did not go back and read all my posts on this thread but I'm fairly certain that I didn't say that I know for a ,,,fact,,,that sonar killed the whale's, what I said is the increased amount of dead whale's coincides with the wind farm sea floor mapping research.

You wanted to argue the amount of fuel these sonar ships burn, and it turned out that their fuel consumption is rated in tons per day not gallons and you shut your mouth quickly on that subject.

Now your saying these ships aren't or haven't used sonar recently. Need I remind you that even a basic bass boat depth-fish finder is eco location sonar.

You sir must live an extremely boring life in that you receive such great pleasure from arguing on the internet.

From: Rocky D
22-Jan-23
“ it was proven there was Russian collusion and there are several people from Trump’s campaign in jail for it. Despite the propaganda you were fed Covid mandates saved lives”

Phil, it is proven through an investigation that the FBI knowingly used unreliable information to continue an investigation that they offered a million dollars to be corroborated and failed to do so!

It was proven that the dossier was bought and paid by your beloved Hillary!

“ Despite the propaganda you were fed Covid mandates saved lives.”

I took my vaccines so you erroneously jumped to the wrong conclusion!

We know now that there was a lack of transparency in how involved that the NIH was involved in this particular type of research. I could go on but it been said here countless times.

“ There was a riot and attack on the capitol and hundreds were charged and convicted for it. Explicit sex education? LOL.”

Again, said nothing about this issue.

“ CRT? It’s clear you don’t even know what that is. Most people just call it history.”

Phil, I know the distorted reality that you live in so don’t project your problems on me!

Have you killed anything lately or are you just trolling on here imitating a hunter?

From: 70lbDraw
22-Jan-23
“I don’t recall ever hearing any reasonable politician say the goal is to cancel all petroleum products. That’s just fear-mongering.”

Really? I don’t recall ever hearing any reasonable politician say the goal is ANYTHING OTHER than to cancel all petroleum products.

But then again, the “reasonable” politicians that push these ignorant plans want you to buy into it and pass it before we get the opportunity to understand it.

From: Bowbender
22-Jan-23
I think the seniors that died in nursing homes in NY, NJ,PA, MI, might have a different opinion on those mandates. You know putting COVID stable patients back in nursing homes.

From: azelkhntr
22-Jan-23

azelkhntr's Link
^^^^ Died? Those poor helpless people were murdered by design. As far as green goes good luck getting an EV from Europe now.

From: KSflatlander
22-Jan-23
Timex- feelings mutual since apparently the truth and facts don’t much matter to you.

From: azelkhntr
25-Jan-23

azelkhntr's embedded Photo
azelkhntr's embedded Photo

From: Catscratch
25-Jan-23
Reasonable politician?

From: timex
30-Jan-23

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo

From: timex
30-Jan-23

timex's embedded Photo
timex's embedded Photo

From: shade mt
31-Jan-23
All this gloom and doom....

A society of everything at our fingertips.....via smart phones....and constant interaction with our fellow man.... All while speeding down a busy highway full of people in a hurry, 15' off the bumper of the guy in front of you....

so peeps....get vaxed...mask up, ......and stay tuned for the next coming disaster, or crisis...... And above all.....lets give our politicians a thumbs up for the high inflation, and keeping things crazy.

From: fuzzy
31-Jan-23
^ News Media "you must panic" Everyone: " we will panic"

31-Jan-23
Yep. A happy society doesn’t need government to save the day. And, it pays the government accordingly. But, a stressed and over whelmed people are quick to buy into the next saving idea. Which pays politicians and their friends very well. Ain’t it grand.

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