What has been your experience on what is the correct approach with an area like this? I could do a combination of TSI with some clear cuts. If I do that how big and how many clear cuts?
I have a 40 of mostly mature hardwoods that I'm going to end up going out of pocket for some TSI in areas close to the creeks and clear cut a small area. Disturbance is a good thing for deer.
If I was doing the cutting my self I would do it over a span of years so the habitat would remain optimum over many years rather than go through a boom and bust cycle. If you manage to sell the trees to be cut, you will undoubtedly need to cover the entire area to generate enough economics of scale.
Not sure what your tolerance level is for dealing with government bull shit is.
If you signed up through NRCS to get a forest management plan done you could get subsidized to do any of the cutting you describe and sell the wood if you could find some one to cut it.
First you apply for the plan, the plan gets done and recommends the work you are describing. Then you apply for the funding. The more "conservation need" you have the more likely you are to get your projects chosen. Normally there is just a single application and selection period per year. However, with the extra millions of dollars being spent through the American rescue plan Maine and New Hampshire are anticipating having more than one selection period for plans and practices so they can shovel out all the $$$$$ hey have to give away.
Lastly, I recommend hiring a consulting forester to help you sell the timber. Specifically, a forester who is an Association of Consulting Foresters (ACF) member. Membership will guarantee they will act as your fiduciary agent as opposed to others who profit by buying wood from you. Only a local will be aware of the potential markets and how best to sell into them. And the market for wood, like any commodity, is in constant change.
I don't want to pick a fight with Mr. WV but in my area, there are a raft of both procurement foresters working for mills and loggers giving "free " services and people advertising themselves as consultants who buy stumpage from their clients. I have seen numerous people get shafted with such arrangements. On face value the land owners get below average prices. Second, they get shorted indirectly by over cutting the forest and or high grading the above average timber for the below average prices. The second might be the worst because it hurts the forest long term productivity.
I am a consultant and an ACF member. And for the record, I recognize foresters are particularly guilty of having opinions and they are just like __________________ and they both stink.
Erik
If I was doing the cutting my self I would do it over a span of years so the habitat would remain optimum over many years rather than go through a boom and bust cycle. If you manage to sell the trees to be cut, you will undoubtedly need to cover the entire area to generate enough economics of scale.
Not sure what your tolerance level is for dealing with government bull shit is.
If you signed up through NRCS to get a forest management plan done you could get subsidized to do any of the cutting you describe and sell the wood if you could find some one to cut it.
First you apply for the plan, the plan gets done and recommends the work you are describing. Then you apply for the funding. The more "conservation need" you have the more likely you are to get your projects chosen. Normally there is just a single application and selection period per year. However, with the extra millions of dollars being spent through the American rescue plan Maine and New Hampshire are anticipating having more than one selection period for plans and practices so they can shovel out all the $$$$$ hey have to give away.
Lastly, I recommend hiring a consulting forester to help you sell the timber. Specifically, a forester who is an Association of Consulting Foresters (ACF) member. Membership will guarantee they will act as your fiduciary agent as opposed to others who profit by buying wood from you. Only a local will be aware of the potential markets and how best to sell into them. And the market for wood, like any commodity, is in constant change.
I don't want to pick a fight with Mr. WV but in my area, there are a raft of both procurement foresters working for mills and loggers giving "free " services and people advertising themselves as consultants who buy stumpage from their clients. I have seen numerous people get shafted with such arrangements. On face value the land owners get below average prices. Second, they get shorted indirectly by over cutting the forest and or high grading the above average timber for the below average prices. The second might be the worst because it hurts the forest long term productivity.
I am a consultant and an ACF member. And for the record, I recognize foresters are particularly guilty of having opinions and they are just like __________________ and they both stink.
Erik
My next cut will be in 2 years with more small clearcuts and TSI throughout. Rotating areas of disturbance will provide a substantial food source and cover in perpetuity if planned correctly. In my stand, 25% is clearcut every 20 years. Some areas will be old age, some will be clearcut. Diversity and edge. If only I could live the next 80 years to see the rotation.
I didn’t buy the land for timber revenue. I’ll likely have to give away the next cut or pay to have it done. That’s ok because the savings is in WI tax program for managed forests.
If you have high pressure during the gun season, you will be amazed at how relaxed (and safe from others) the deer will be.
I vastly prefer bow hunting but do go with the gun. This year I let the biggest buck ever that I didn’t shoot walk into the 8 yr old clearcut at 8am on the opener. Came back out at 4pm. Let him walk again. In WI, if they make it past the first day, they are 85% of the way to the next year. Pulled cards last week (a month after gun season) and he’s still going. It’s very rewarding to see your land management work.
Blue spot, I really appreciate the time and effort you put into your response. Here is some more background. On 12/15/2020 I bought out my land partner. We started buying land together in 1997. The next winter and spring were spent trying to get a better handle on what the status of everything was. Due to his poor health and the expectation that he would buy me out not much had been done in recent years. I walked the land with three consulting foresters, a state forester and the state wildlife landowner consultant. The state forester and the wildlife consultant convinced me to work with the NRCS for funding. I applied for funding for a plan for all of the property and for performing a TSI and invasive species control on the 28 acres under discussion on the tread. With the support of the state forester and state wildlife consultant I was able to apply for funding on the 28 acres using their reports. The funding for the plan was approved but the work on the 28 acres was not. I have hired a consulting forester to prepare the plan. The application for the work on the 28 acres has been rolled over to the next funding period.
I showed the consulting forester around the property and we discussed the 28 acre application. He should complete his field work in the next two weeks and have the report completed in 4 weeks after that. His experience lies more in forestry than wildlife management. However, he is fulling onboard with my objectives. Input that I get from bowsite will be used to develop the next steps. Once the plan has been submitted, my chances for funding should increase. Also, once the plan is complete, I should be able to do some work to thicken the area while I wait for approval with the understanding that I will not be paid for that work. I would like to get some trees cut this winter.
sounds like you are well along a well thought out plan. I always hesitate to recommend NRCS because for me it has been a very cumbersome and slow process to accomplish an end goal. It is best to strike while the iron is hot to achieve a land owners goals. Waiting 3 plus years to meet a goal can often have a land owners interest or goals change or cool over that time span. But when there are considerable out of pocket expenses it can be the best pragmatic way forward. It is absolutely necessary to complete your management plan before applying for the practice funding when dealing with forest land (non agg land, farmers are exempt from that requirement) I feel blessed to work where we have markets for any tree bigger than two inches so long as you put the project together correctly. I certainly understand other areas don't have those markets or the management options they allow. I also understand not everyone has the same goal, needs or financial constraints. But we have some clients who are very financially comfortable and manage their lands pretty idealistically from my perspective, but they also would rather get two nickels than one if they can.
The great thing about managing a forest is you don't have to manage exclusively for timber or wildlife. The shelterwood or clearcut to regenerate your forest will also give you fantastic browse and thick cover. How you describe the project and outcome depends on which hat you are wearing. Probably the hardest thing to convey to landowners is forest age class and type will be ever shifting and moving around a property and the corresponding wildlife habitat will as well. But I get the sense that some people think a certain area of a property will always be dedicated to a certain habitat type. Or that you can keep it in a certain size class. In your case is there any reason your sanctuary and bedding thickets have to continue to be on that 28 acres ? As a forester I probably get to spend more days a year walking in the woods. As such I get to see and be distracted by deer sign on a very regular basis. Interestingly, where I see deer bed, dense thick cover is not the common denominator. But I also admit my deer hunting skills are far from the best. When I was young and dumb I managed to bumble into a reasonable number of older bucks and deer in general. As I get older and "smarter" my success seeing or killing deer seems to continue to decline. I do get to eat venison occasionally, maybe more than Jordan at home, but my skills would land far out on the wrong side of the bell shaped curve!
There are numerous bedding areas and several sanctuaries on the property. As the age classes of the timber progress the willingness of the deer to bed in certain areas change. There has not been a major timber harvest on most of the property since 2004. Once the plan is complete, I plan to have a series of timber sales. This will create additional bedding areas and will probably require me to change how I hunt the land. The 28 acres is part of about 63 acres with a strip pit in the middle, spoil piles on one side and benches and old access to the pit on the other. It twists and turns making the wind there very unstable. Regardless of the age class of the timber it is probably best left as a sanctuary. Having better cover will increase the number of deer that bed in it. I think that as long as it is a sanctuary some deer are going to bed there. I also need more wintertime browse.
