Iron Will Component Install
Equipment
Are any of you using hot melt to install Iron Will collars and HIT inserts on .204 arrows? Are you hot melting the collar in place too?
If hot melting, this makes the cost of the IW components a non factor to me.
Mark, I had the exact same question and reached out to Bill who steered me in the right direction. I’ll let him answer it.
Hot melt is tricky for that... High heat will breakdown carbon and some of the low-temp hot melt glues will soften and loosen with high friction caused by some high density foams.
I've seen plenty of low temp hot melt inserts w/field points not come out with the arrow at 3D shoots.
I’ve never had a problem using hot melt glue. As long as it’s low temp glue. Never had a problem with inserts coming out since the 80’s.
Epoxy the HIT and hot melt the collar.
I never like epoxying anything... sooner or later I wanted to change something around and once epoxied, it was really hard to do it.. Hot melt only here.
Hot melt is not as strong as two-part epoxy. And the IW collar doesn’t really do it’s job if you don’t epoxy it on. If you just slide the collar on and you hit something hard…..your whole tip, arrow and collar Will mushroom. You’ll have less of a chance of that happening if you either hotmelt or epoxy it on. I feel you’ll have the best results if you epoxy it all on.
Blood, HIT's are cheap, IW collars not so much. I want to be able to melt them off broken arrows.
Brotsky,
Are you using the Easton HITs or are you using IW HITs?
Mark, I use the Easton brass HIT's, a little more spendy that the Easton aluminum obviously that come with the arrows but not bad.
Brotsky, gotcha. I definitely understand. I shoot alot of 3D and there’s rebar and hard pvc in alot of the targets. The Iron Will impact collars don’t do anything to protect your arrows in those instances. And hot melt will just allow the HIT to push in easier. I think if the collars encapsulated the whole end of the arrow up to the field point or Broadhead ferrel, it might do a much better job.
This is the stuff you want to use. I hot melt the HIT insert with point/broadhead attached and press right through the IW collar. Enough of the hot melt seeps out around to stick the collar, too. Super easy to dip in boiling water for a few seconds to swap out when you need to.
This a super robust way to build arrows and I don't have to worry about the HIT or any of the components pulling out. It also allows me to easily index my broadheads exactly how I want.
I use oil on my broadhead threads and screw in insert. Then I install Hit with head and get the arrow to spin good. I also oil the shank on the broadhead. You have plenty of time to tune arrow with Hit epoxy.
The whole point of using hot melt is so the insert/broadhead combo can be removed easily and changed to a lighter or heavier insert combo. I’ve also never used a collar and probably never will.
The footing is deburred on both ends. The insert is flush with the footing. I tried hot melt as you can see the reminders on the footing. But, I used gold tip insert glue instead. It’s working very well.
I used low temp hot melt on the HIT and no adhesive on the collars. No problems, but haven’t had any really hard impacts either.
I just built a set of .204 arrows using hot melt to bond in the HIT and head together. I just slipped the Impact Collar on since it had a tight fit to these arrows, but you can hot melt them also. I like to use hot melt when I think I might want to change the HIT insert later to shoot different weight heads. I also wanted to shoot these arrows right away, which you can do with hot melt. Here is a link to a video showing bonding in with hot melt. I use a heat gun so I don't overheat anything and risk damaging the arrow. I tested 8 different hot melt adhesives and we now sell the one that had the highest bond strength yet was removeable by sticking the end of the arrow in boiling water for 15 seconds.
How is the strength of a standard HIT w hot melt versus expoxy?
I ordered the hot melt yesterday, I've been an epoxy guy but like the idea of indexing my broadheads and changing point weight.
Hard-stop hard impacts are very likely to do damage regardless. The best advise is to use the method YOU are most comfortable with. The correct hot melt works great but requires more "skill" and touch than epoxy. Both the insert and arrow shaft need to be pre-heated so there's no "cold-delaminating" at the bond surface. Also don't forget to remove the nock when hot melting so you don't have push-back due to compressed air inside the shaft. If you forget to remove the nock, you'll have to hold it in until it cools.
Even when using epoxy, I like to remove the nock and screw heads/points into the inserts of the axis shafts (wax the threads) and then stand them vertical, point down, while curing so the adhesive settles evenly behind the insert. (Same principal as balancing your tires) I can honestly say that I've never had an axis shaft "not" spin a head true when using the factory inserts.
If I can afford nearly $400 for a dozen IW match grade axis arrows, the very least of my concerns is re-using inserts & collars...
"If I can afford nearly $400 for a dozen IW match grade axis arrows, the very least of my concerns is re-using inserts & collars..."
For some, they will pay $130 for a dozen Axis shafts and $120 for IW components that they can reuse over and over again and use the other $150 for beer. :)
I just use the HIT inserts and if I happen to hit something so hard as to mushroom the end, i pitch it and move on. Never had one mushroom or fail going through an animal, it takes a good impact. And with all the money I didn’t spend on collars and expensive components, I can put that towards replacing those arrows. It hasn’t happened often enough to where I worry about it. I’ve sent them through a lot of animals and even a few shoulder blades, and the only damage has been when they hit some bone and didn’t get all the way through and the animal broke it running off. That is my hunting arrow and used during hunting only. 3D I use GT velocities, but if I did use them for 3D, I think I would use them the same way, for ease of pulling out of targets.
Mark...let's be clear, the $150 is for bourbon :)
Bowaddict,
The collar also provides support for lateral forces.
Brotsky,
You could be an honorary Kentuckian. :)
You see the shi! Show state I live in, I’ll gladly take the honorary Kentuckian title:) I get the lateral forces thing too, just haven’t had enough problems to worry about it. I shoot a lot! And one summer I kept using my axis for 3d set up as mentioned. I think I had one that bent the insert after hitting something hard left behind in a target(point/insert). For me it wasn’t a big deal, and I shoot 20 to 30 3d tournies a year and have 3d targets in the yard that I shoot a lot year round. Yes I think the collar would have saved that arrow, but I was still ahead of the game as far as $! The beauty of archery now days though, you can take it about as far as you want with the latest and greatest. I’ve been there, and have found myself going back to the KISS method more and more. Components and arrows are so much better now than a handful of years ago. Heck, I still shoot my 3D setup with factory inserts and screw in points! More so for practical reasons. I shoot the same bow for 3d and turkey hunting, and use the same arrow. When turkey is done those broadheads come off and GT easy pulls go on for the rest of the summer, and I think I’ve done alright in the 3D game.
I will add though, if I knew I would be busting more of my arrows up from stump shooting or extreme distance shoots, the collars could pay off!!!
I’ve seen the opposite. The Impact collars do not prevent the arrow/system from destruction. They haven’t saved any arrows and actually, you destroy the HIT, collar and FP. Like I’ve mentioned in this thread and others…..if the IC was designed better, it could work better for hard impacts.
$150 bought a hellofalot of beer before I became a craft beer nerd. Now it's only about three visits for the wife and I... :(
I'm not a bourbon drinker but, one of my favorite beers is/was a bourbon barrel aged pale from Jack Pine in Brainerd. I believe it was 14% ABV. MMMMM now I'm thirsty.
Blood,
That is the drawback of the HIT system to me. You are totally dependent on the strength of the adhesive to hold youR insert in place on hard impacts.
HIT is the dumbest system ever designed. Whatever you screw into it is acting as a puller That’s why I glue it all.
"HIT is the dumbest system ever designed. Whatever you screw into it is acting as a puller"
Actually that's not true if assembled correctly. Spaced correctly the head/point threads bottom out at the same time it seats against the end of the shaft and/or collar. All contact points work together.
x-man, there is way too much tolerance stack up between components for that to consistently work.
The best way to prevent that tolerance problem is two ways. 1. Modify the HIT insert tool so it seats the HIT insert shallower so the ferrel of your broadhead meets the HIT, rather than just the threads. 2. Or….you screw them into your broadhead or field point and epoxy the whole thing into the arrow. Spin test them before the epoxy dries and go hunt.
I like Iron Will for all their stuff. But the impact collars need a vast improvement to help structurally support your arrow from a hard impact.
Option number 1 would direct all the impact to the insert, eventually if not immediately breaking the glue bond.
Option number 2 is what I do only with hot melt as I noted above.
So… is there a better 204 insert than a hit? Seems like most others are half out etc….eh
Yes. There are better options for a solid set up.
Well, something better would be a standard carbon arrow. Axis us probably the best small OD arrow but that doesn't make it the best arrow.
I see no tangible advantage to going small OD for a hunting arrow. Other than showing off to your buddies... No one has ever proven there are penetration advantages on a live animal to the point of making the difference for a recovery or not. There are tiny crosswind advantages for the shaft itself but not for the BH and/or fletching.
P.S. I sold lots of Axis arrows, my son still uses them to this day. It's been 10 years for him and zero issues with the factory HIT inserts. I'll say it again, it's a plausible system when done correctly but it takes some skill and touch to do correctly. If you want simple, affordable and just as good if not better, buy a quality .243 arrow like the CT Whitetail XP.
Just a question as I’m now very curious. Have any of you guys ever tried a footing made out of an aluminum arrow?
I personally love the HIT insert system, I've never had one pull out or break. I've been using them for a long time now, must be over 15 years.
I have read a lot of how .204 arrows are probably the perfect blend between the .166 and .246, but I always just stuck with .246 because I felt the components were better. I created this thread because I had considered switching to the Axis with IW HITs and Collars, but the more I read this thread the more it supports my original position as to why I like standard diameter arrows best.
WV, I like the concept of a footer from an aluminum arrow. But think about this, and where this thread is going, that type of footer doesn’t really do anything for a hard frontal impact. Your FP or BH will still push the insert back and the arrow will mushroom or splinter or even break completely.
A 1/2 out “type”of insert - where the insert covers the whole diameter of the carbon….with a sleeve covering the carbon AND the insert, could be a very strong setup. Ethics archery has lots of combinations like this. There’s others too, but ethics is a good example.
Now again, I’m talking about a hard impact that keeps your arrow together where you should be able to use it again.
The IW collars also cover the end of the carbon shaft. Same as the half-outserts. If epoxied in there should be the same amount of mating surface and bonding strength using HIT & IW collars as there is using half-ouserts.
On a hard impact, each system is relying on a glue line to keep the point from pushing back into the shaft, causing a mushroom. A mushroom is a mushroom, shouldn't matter if the point causes it or if the back of the half-outsert causes it. No different from any other carbon arrow.
Blood, but a 125 grain screw in blunt. Shoot the footed shaft into something hard. Shoot the other arrow of choice into the same surface. Get back with us which withstands the direct hit. It’ll be the footed shaft if properly glued together. It will not mushroom. At least out of a 27” drawn compound with a 450 grain arrow.
Try it for real.
Don’t use hot melt. Use epoxy or component glue for the footing.
See how the inner wall is exposed.
See how the inner wall is exposed.
I’ll have to mess with that WV. In theory, I would think that since the carbon is exposed up to the FP or BH and you hit something hard, the footer doesn’t absorb any impact….it just might hold tight for a bit until it doesn’t hold tight. :) I’ll play with it.
XMan, the IC doesn’t cover the whole exposed wall of the carbon shaft…..that’s the flaw. I feel if it covered the wall completely up to the ferrel of the FP or BH, it would be stronger and the Carbon could withstand a more forceful hit. Also, if they made that lip thicker, it wouldn’t have the tendency to mushroom as often.
If you use good glue and extend the footing to flush with the insert, it’ll hold.
If you leave them loose they can mushroom. thoroughly epoxy that collar on and it will hold just as long as the half-outsert. They will both fail if you shoot at an anvil at 300 fps, and they will both survive a deep pool of water at 300 fps.
Here are three different ones from Iron Will. All the HITs were 2 part epoxied in. 2 impact collars were hot melted on. The one without the FP was epoxied on. It doesn’t matter. These were all from 3D targets….either hitting the rebar in them or the hard pvc in the “backbone” of the foam. Expensive huh?
So yes, there are better options out there to protect your entire arrow in these instances…..if that’s what you want or need. These arrows were all around 550 grains @ 285-290 fps.
That’s a lot of horsepower.
Same thing would have happened with the half-outserts(damaged arrow). I didn't know there was rebar in the vitals of a 3D target... :) Although I've seen that happen when hitting someone else's point/insert that was poorly glued in and stayed in the target.
XMan. You funny about the 3D. :) Believe it or not, some weird angles and you’ll drive the arrow through into those damn metal bars. Especially the big animals…..the rebar is in the back to support all that foam. And in the legs to hold them up.
I haven’t had that happen with the 1/2 jacket system yet. I’m still trying though. :)
I used a 250 DG Easton FMJ at 1028 total grains with the full Iron will collar and 250 buff head. After the Buffalo hunt I wanted to shoot smaller plains game with the same setup.
While siting on a water hole I shot Thru a baboon. After clearing the baboon the arrow hit a very old concrete cattle water tank 20 yards away.
75 pound bow, 1028 grain arrow BH combo. It blew a large chunk of concrete out and made zero noticeable impact or damage to any of the components. The FMJ was fine.
Of course I can’t vouch for what would happen to a carbon arrow.
Rebar in a 3D targets causes more damage than hitting a boulder in my experience because the foam keeps the arrow from deflecting off of it and all the momentum of the arrow drives straight into this hardened steel rod. Blood, looks like at 550 grains and 290 fps, this was even flattening the hardened steel field point. The Impact Collars do a nice job of protecting arrows for shots into bones, trees, and rocky dirt which are the likely things you can hit in a hunting situation. I have been using them for six years and damaged very few arrows.
Bill, thanks for the data. Have you thought about improving the collars so they are more robust for harder impacts?
Keith I think it’s your arrow. Not the collar.
I’m guessing those collars are fine for game. I wouldn’t be blasting IW heads and collars at 3d targets.
Altitude, I know about that arrow. :) I don’t think much is going to break the front of it.
Bill, are you looking to make a stronger more stout impact collar in the near future? Thanks.
