Help a bowhunter with a rifle question
Elk
So my daughter is 20. Fairly small 5'2" guessing 120lbs. She has shot a number of deer and antelope with a .243. She drew a CO unit 76 rifle tag. I want to buy her a rifle that will be just hers. For deer, elk, black bear, antelope sized critters. She been a heck of a shot. Recoil never seems to be a thought and want to keep it that way but also a rifle with more energy that a .243.
Not looking for brand of rifle advice at this time. But a do want a lighter rifle she can carry around the mountains. I am indecisive on caliber. I really like the 6.5 PRC but a little worried about future availability of ammo if its popularity peaks. 6.5 creedmoor maybe but seems a little light for elk. 270 in running but worried about recoil in a lighter rifle. 308 does get me excited. I know a 243 could get it done for elk but not interested in going that route.
Those are my top 4 ideas right now leaning towards the PRC. But still not sure.
For what it is worth leaning towards the Tikka or Howa rifles. I think I can spend $1500 and have a nice rifle and scope. Don't need the best out there but want something she can have for hopefully forever and is little nicer than say the $600 savage packages.
270,308 and 30-06 all all excellent. you dont need a cannon to kill elk. I have killed elk with a 30-30 and many others too back in the day.
270 with a muzzle break. My favorite that I have used for many years is a 270 WSM. I have a muzzle break on it as well. Last elk I killed with it was close to 500 yds and the bullet went right through, expanded well, minimal damage. Shooting a 140 gr nosler accubond bullet. I also don’t shoot an adjustable scope but it does have extra crosshairs or tick marks for different yardages. Another good one is 7mm mag or 7mm WSM. 25-06 isn’t bad either or a 280. I just really like my 270 WSM and my 12 yr old boy will be shooting it on his December cow hunt.
I'd not hesitate to use .270
My dad's killed moose in AK with .270, it's a very versatile caliber. Don't go crazy, but I personally wouldn't worry about recoil. Shoot at range with sand bags/lead sled. On a hunt nobody notices even a cannon.
30-06 also has a huge variety of loads so a great choice.
Doesn't need to be any of the new "sexy" calibers to get the job done well, and with a lot more loads to choose from.
My pick for your daughter would be 7-08. ....308 2nd choice
I have a 25-06 and it would fit the bill, but does have quite a bit of recoil and is very loud.
308 will take any of the game animals mentioned and do it with gusto. If recoil isn't a concern with her. The a second choice would be a270. The other option that most think of is a 25-06, it will do the job.
7mm-08 or .280, many bullet weights to choose from.
I want as little recoil as possible. It has never been an issue because a 243 really has almost none. So I want to keep recoil to a bare minimum. I am worried about the 270 in a light rifle. I don't want her to start think about it if that makes sense.
7mm-08. Great penetration. Light kick. Short action makes for a smaller more compact rifle. Lots of bullets and choices
Anyone with thoughts on the 6.5 PRC
The 6.5 cartridges are all good....they just won't do anything that the .270, 7/08, .308, etc. won't do.
Recoil of the 6.5 will be similar to that of the 7/08, but for my money the 7/08 has a better selection of ammunition available. Whether factory loaded or handloaded.
I'm also in the 7mm-08 camp.
I hunt with a 6.5×284 & use 130 grain berger hunting vld bullets for whitetail and they are phenomenal on whitetail out to 600 yards. I wouldn't hesitate to hunt elk with my 6.5×284 using the berger bullet pictured above. Check out the ballistic coefficient of this bullet
I would say 300 wsm. Small light rifle, very little kick, in my opinion for the caliber, but do have the browning boss muzzle break on it.
I have shot everything from Kudu 175 yards to Impala to Whitetail and mule deer under 200 and with the exception of blue wildebeest, literally dropped where they stood.
The problem is finding ammo can be like winning the lottery, not good odds. If you don't mind custom ammo or you can reload it is an amazing cartridge.
I love the 6.5 Creedmoor. Mild recoil and usually easy to get very accurate with factory ammo. I've watched the 143gr ELDX take several elk. I set up an inexpensive Ruger for my son that shoots great.
Next choices would be 6.5 PRC, 7mm-08. Low recoil is a big factor in accuracy
I rarely have seen an elk lost with a medium caliber where I think a 300 Win mag would have made a difference. Its almost always placement.
In no particular order
280 Remington, 7mm/08, 308
I don’t think 270 recoil will be an issue, I’ve shot a 270wsm since I was about her size and it never “turned me off” to shooting, and the regular 270 would have slightly less recoil than that of the wsm - but each individual is different.
That being said, I’d be looking real hard at the 7mm08. I haven’t shot one so I have no experience with recoil comparison to the 270, but as far as “takedown” goes, with 150 grain bullet there isn’t much in North America that I wouldn’t feel very confident packing a 270 for if I was to rifle hunt them.
I’d steer clear of the target-type calibers, for no reason other than that the target crowd changes flavors of the month regularly, and you’ll never know when a caliber that is all the rage today is going to be impossible to even find brass for in 10 years. This isn’t an issue with the 270win or 7-08, and you’re likely gonna be able to find atleast 270win ammo of some kind in any town in America that has a sporting goods store. I’ve even ran into some issues finding 270wsm brass, and there was many times I was real jealous of 270win owners.
I'm also a big fan of the 7mm-08, more than capable of what you are looking to do with it. The recoil is very minimal. Excellent round and, I have it in a Tikka and couldn't be more pleased with it
You do know that the 243 is a necked down 308?
Also, I know you like to antelope hunt. I’d go with a 270. You can load it up with a 150gr bullet or down to a 100gr.
I shot my 1st elk with a 270 and many deer and antelope with a 270.
Also would agree with 308, 7mm-08 and 270. Ammo available everywhere, lighter recoil, plenty of horsepower.
This BHA member loves it some 6.5!
Ammo choice may be more important than cartridge. All the lighter one's mentioned above will work just fine with the right bullet / cartridge combination. I've hear that Federal Terminal Ascent takes the cake at all reasonable hunting ranges.
7mm-08. 120 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip for deer etc. 140 grain Barnes X will handle anything lighter than a grizzly. As cnelk pointed out above, the 7-08 is also a necked-down 308. The 243 tops out around 120 grain bullets, the 7-08 will handle 150's easily, and be a bit flatter shooting than it's 'parent' 308.
If you lived closer I'd have her shoot my Remington Model 7. Best bet would probably be a Tikka T-3 or a Savage. Weatherby Vanguard 'Camilla' model might suit her as well. Good luck to her.
7-08, 6.5cm would be my choices. IMO the recoil of a lightweight 270 would be a noticeable difference to her. With quality bullets, they all kill elk though.
7mm-08 with a 22" barrel 140gr accubond and she'll be good to go, impressive little round. Keep shots under 400 yards, aim small and nothing will ever know the difference between it and the magnums. On range sessions or varmits there are some really good factory 120gr loads and even some 120gr reduced recoil loads that kick like a 243.
Some thoughts, just because she is a female and smaller stature she may not react to recoil like you do. I loaded up some 308 ammo for my featherweight and let a guy shoot it, he complained about recoil and I laughed. Sometimes smaller stature takes recoil easier. We give with the shot.
I would go with a 7-08. a 308 while accurate drops like a lead balloon at longer range, I hunted elk with a 308 and not my fav caliber for elk.
John, thought you were set on the 2 when we texted. But I got Ethan the 7-08 when younger on the advice of the neighbor, his wife and daughters have killed a lot of elk with that caliber. They love that gun and the boy still enjoys shooting his! As stated by much more knowledgeable rifle shooters than me, it’s compact, light and made for small framed shooters. Recoil is low, and good selection.
7-08 Tika,our girls use the 7-08 with no problems.I load 140gr.Accubonds for them.
For what you're looking for, 270 and a muzzle break is a great option. Like Jaq said, it's not a trendy as the 6.5 options, but it'll get it done great just fine with the right load.
I had a Winchester 7mm short mag that kicked like a mile and just didn’t fit me well. I traded it in for a new Tikka T3 30-06 and couldn’t be happier. It’s lighter, the action is smooth and precise, my wife is comfortable with it, and I’ve take both deer and elk with clean one shot kills. It’s one of my favorite rifles when it comes to big game. It won’t break the bank so you can put a nice scope on it as well.
I would stick with the .243 and improve with hotloaded ammo type like hornady superperformance or this Grizzly cartridge fodder.
Big fan of 7-08 myself; Remington Mtn Rifle is about the perfect package, IMO; mine wears a Leupold Compact in the 2-7 range.
I had a Ballistic Tip (140) ricochet right back out off of a whitetail doe’s rib about 25 years ago and haven’t touched that load since. Probably an example of early production which has been improved upon since then, but there are so many really good controlled-expansion bullets out there… I’m just not a fan of frangible bullets.
I wouldn’t shy away from a .308, either. Ammo on every shelf.
And I have a friend who shot deer professionally in the UK who had tried them all and killed literally thousands of deer of all sizes (from Muntjacs to Reds) with a .270 loaded with 150 grainers at 2800 fps. He favored a Hornady with some kind of lock on the core…
7mm-08 would be a great choice.
I few years ago I was looking for the same thing for a rifle for my wife. Ended up with a 7mm-08 and haven't been disappointed yet I would think a 270 would also be a solid choice. Don't know anything about the 6.5 prc but have shot the Creedmoor and don't get the hype it's no better then a half dozen other cartridges that already existed.
Thanks Jaq, now I'm triggered and will be filing a greivance.
Go with either a 6.8mm-.06 or a .277-.06 and don't look back.
7mm-08 all the way. Low recoil, my daughter’s has shot black bear, whitetail, 6x6 elk. Remington 700 lightweight a joy to carry.
For recoil, stay with cartridges with a case capacity in the 50s and a bullet 120gr-150gr. At the same weight and speed, smaller diameter bullets will retain energy better.
I've seen several elk killed with a .243 and 105gr bullets. Worked great, all broadside in the sweet spot. Not my first choice but would be fine if that's all I had.
.243 should be fine for her with a Nosler Partition 100 gr., it will vaporize the internal organs, as was express it is a neck down .308 and the ammo is easy available, great cal. for large game., as with any rifle or gun have the trigger pull reduced down do reduce any flinching, just my own experience which doesn't mean much.
JMO.... 243 and elk....... Cow? sure. Bull? ... NO
" Nosler Partition 100 gr., it will vaporize the internal organs"....... no, it won't... in my opinion
I’m also a fan of 7mm08 as well. Daughter started with a 6mm (244) & we were very disappointed with the performance on whitetails. The 7mm 08 has been awesome for her on mulies, whitetail, bear & elk. Stainless Browning A-bolt with muzzle brake has been an awesome package for her. Light recoil & great performance.
Look at something in 7mm-08
200 yard head shots on groundhogs aren't a big deal for the Model 7 Remington in 7mm-08
The stock fit has a huge impact on felt recoil. Look into the Savage 110 with a Proof Research Carbon fiber wrapped barrel. And the Accustock.
A highly adjustable stock that is designed very well, and reduces felt recoil.
Here is mine in .308 I filled the hollow plastic stock, painted it and added some foam under thin leather for the check rest. Look into how to measure and fit her length of pull and check rise. Face height
6.5 PRC is not going away any time soon - Hornady's marketing will not let it happen. That being said a 308 would be second choice in my book.
Stay away from long caliber they all kick. 308 has so much to offer loads from 110gr low recoil up to 190 gr elk droppers. Very accurate especially around 168 gr Btsp. Snippers love the gun. And there is plenty of loads out there. And still used by military . Cool ar 10 5 Rd. Mag be sweet low recoil. Browning bar another auto option to soak up some recoil. God luck
I would get a 270 or 308, load up with some accubonds, and hunt any antlered game in NA. You should be able to find ammo for either one just about anywhere.
I am a 308 fan. That would be my choice. As cnelk pointed out. It's the same case as her 243.
The 7-08 would be my first and last choice. It will do anything she needs to do from elk on down. Proper bullet selection and proper bullet placement is more important than caliber anyway.
Thanks for thoughts. Bought Weatherby 7mm 08 and Leupod 3-9x40
6.5 creedmoor with 143 gr Hornady ELD-X will kill everything up to and including elk as long as you’re not shooting elk at 500 yds. Very easy shooting for a girl especially with a muzzle break . A big plus is that it is extremely accurate with the 143 gr.
If a 60 pound bow can kill an elk a 6.5 creedmoor certainly can, you just have to hit them in the right spot. Rifle/bullet selection helps with that . Not developing a flinch with an easy shooting rifle helps too .
7mm-08 is an option also. I have both but I’m partial to the accuracy of the 6.5
Very nice John. She will love it!! Watch out now critters !!
As many have said - 7mm/08 in a Remington model 7.
With Leopold scope, very nice...
Looks like a great set up!
Already comes with the right scope too.
I think you'll be happy with your decision, great looking set up!
260 Remington, 6.5 cdm, 308, 270, 280, 6mm, 7mm/08, and finally the 243 Winchester.
Personally, I think you’ve already got the perfect caliber for her and her needs. A 243 is a dandy. An under appreciated round in todays world. But, it’s a dandy for small framed hunters that need ample power on bigger game.
A 270 and a 280 are going to get heavy for her. And, not do anything the 243 can’t at the ranges she will be using this rifle.
A 308 is indeed mild and might be a better choice for bigger game. But, it’s just fire pit talk really. The 243 will get it done if she hits it like she should. And, not one caliber that has been listed will do a better job compatibly for her needs
So, buy a rifle she can handle. Which is going to be a short action. And, don’t over look more affordable options.
I personally wouldn’t hit a bull in the rear end with a savage rifle. Especially not a budget savage. They are shooters but ugly is an understatement.
But, I started a quest several years ago to build a custom rifle. I’ve got custom guns buil on Mauser, Winchester, and Remington actions. With upgrade barrels, pillars, lug bedding, etc…. But, this quest was different. I wanted a light, compact, ergonomic rifle in a .308 caliber. And, I bought a .308 compact in the river American. Instead of spending several $thousands of dollars. It just fit the bill.
It’s funny because my friends all haggled me for buying a $459 rifle and a high dollar scope. Until the held and shouldered it. The recoil is very mild as well.
Good luck. But, if I spent $1500 on a rifle today, it’d say Bergara on it.
Well, I reckon I should have read the thread before posting.
That 7mm/08 is a good one. But, she’s going to feel the recoil more than a lot of other calibers. I’m sure she’ll be fine though.
"A 270 and a 280 are going to get heavy for her."
At the age of 16, my small frame daughter handled a 7mm mag just fine. A .270 is a good choice.
My wife is deadly with her Tikka .308, and the recoil doesn't bother her a bit.
Both the 7-08 and 270 are good choices, as are many of the other suggestions. Seems like you can find .270 ammo everywhere out here where she (and you) will be hunting. Anymore, finding ammo with any selection of loads is as much of a challenge as finding game.
Personally, I couldn't shoot a PRC because I don't look good in a man bun..
AK fish and game state it best... Shoot a caliber that you are used to shooting instead of buying a magnum that you shoot poorly because you flinch.
The .308 it's necked up version the .338 federal have killed a lot of animals for me. Only two have made it over 50 yds before expiring, the moose wasn't one of them. Minimal recoil in the .308 chambering, great caliber for those of us that don't handle recoil well.
Lou the real question is can you grow enough hair for a man bun? ;)
That will be a dandy rifle. And I'll bet it's a shooter too.
I see u got the 7mm-08 Good choice. I would seriously look at Hornady Precision Hunter ammo. They make a 150 gr ELD-X for 7mm-08. Those long heavier bullets seem to be extremely accurate for most calibers and they are a good bullet for expansion and weight retention. Which is why most 6.5 creedmoor fans opt for the 143gr ELD-X as their bullet of choice. That would be a great bullet for everything up to and including elk and moose as long as range remains reasonable
Plenty of great suggestions here. My youth at age 12 yrs. shot a .308 and a .270. Both are readily available, especially the .270. Good luck hunting this fall.
That is the ammo I got. Even got two free boxes thrown in plus a sling. Ammo this days is crazy pricey.
7mm-08 would be my pick for your daughter… 308 as a second choice.
The 6.5 PRC is essentially a .264 WSM.
A 6.5 CM is what drag queens use for long range competition. And, they shoot Mathews :^)
Those 150's are a good choice for large critters. If the recoil is bothersome for her, look for Hornady with 120 grain pills. (Or, do you reload?)
"The .308 it's necked up version the .338 federal"
My favorite rifle is my old Ruger 358 Winchester.. can do over 2500 fps with 225 gr bullets. It even shoots 357 pistol bullets very well. Just been a fun rifle. I have 358 brass these days but have made a lot just expanding out 308 brass in one pass with press. Many think it's just a "woods" rifle...not true at all. It's good to 400 yards with good energy all the way.
The round I shoot,,, 6.5×284 was for a long time strictly a wildcat bench rest cartridge. In fact it held the 1000 yards 5 shot group record for many years, is why I choose it.... there is a few gun manufacturers & cartridge companies offering it these days. But for the most part a custom gun & reload cartridge. Those of you pissing on the 6.5......I understand.....the Creedmoor is sloooooow. The only thing that saves it is low recoil & the 6.5 ballistic coefficients.
I'm in agreement that the 7mm08 would be an excellent choice for the op.
But absolutely don't knock the 6.5
6.5 CM is plenty. Guys using big rounds on North American hooved game are usually compensating. They generally also have12" wide 22" wheels with low profile tires on their truck and LED lights underneath. :^)
Not common yet but the .277 Fury fits the bill. Consumer version of the new military round. I expect it to be offered by a lot of manufacturers.
Bergara Rifles!
Excellent quality and accurate. I've had these on my range for several of our customers and they shoot excellent out to 1000 yards. Shot 6.5 and .308 both and IMO the .308 Winchester with a 150 grain bullet is hard to beat! I've had good luck with it for 50 years...hunting and competition.
308 or 30.06 with a muzzle break. Wide variety of Bullets and brands to chose from and either caliber can kill anything in North America.
7mm-08 would be my pick for your daughter… 308 as a second choice.
Should fill the role nicely. 1.5" high at 100 and good to go.
Skip the muzzle brakes unless you want damage her young ears for life. Or make sure she uses hearing protection in the field. Better a little temporary soreness of the shoulder than permanently ruined hearing.
T-Roy mentioned Thornton to me. I probably screwed up not getting his advice. Wish you would have brought that up before purchase Troy.
I bought the exact same rifle and caliber, except a leupold 2-7x, for both my boys when they were 10. They 14 and 13 now and have taken around 15 deer with the set up. It’s been a deadly combo!
One thing as bad as recoil is the sick feeling of not recovering a wounded elk. I’ll cast another vote for the .270 with muzzle brake. A brake does wonders and it’s the perfect ingredient for getting smaller hunters or recoil shy hunters to be able to use a caliber more suited for killing elk.
Honestly, he probably WOULD be be a good source of information on this particular subject.
Brakes work great and they are awful. Great for reducing felt recoil, awful for your hearing and no fun for the guy next to you at the range or a buddy next to you on the side of a hill running binoculars when you shoot.
Nice sold choice. I was betting your pick was going to be a 257 Roberts . Funny know one said 7mm.
She doesn't need a muzzle break, good choice John. Try some different loads to see what it likes to shoot.
Glunt,
You are so correct about muzzle brakes. My Browning has the BOSS brake, which is an amazing brake and really helps with accuracy, however shot once on the range without hearing by accident. OMG that was miserable.
Now I always carry a pair of surefire ear plugs when hunting to pop in before taking a shot
6.5 Creedmoor is more than enough and the 6.5 PRC is even better. I own both, and have shot 3 bulls, several pronghorn bucks, whitetail bucks, and mulie bucks out to 375 yards with the Creedmoor. My buddy shot this big bull with his Creedmoor at 180 yards running, and he went straight down. John- the 6.5 PRC maintains a similar trajectory to the 7 mag from my research on Hornady's ballistics app. The PRC also outperforms the 270 past 500 yards just like the 7 mag. My cabelas has an entire shelf for these two 6.5 calibers.
Excellent choice, John. I got my boy a youth 7-08 and it was deadly with the Hornady 139 gr Superformance. He made a pile of dead elk with it. Great scope choice as well!
If you bought a 7mm08, I have heard plenty of good things about them. Public land hunter and Leupold sponsored Youtuber Randy Newberg often uses the caliber as well as the 308 and says they work great on elk with proper shot placement.
I got my first 708 in the 70s its a Remington 788 with a 18 inch barrel it is deadly.I’m not saying it would be the best barrel for out west but in a 200 yard shot it’s a great gun good luck Lewis
If you are going the 6.5 route, you can get a Tikka in 6.5.55 Swede. I have an old 6.5x55 Mauser and that round is amazing. Hard to find ammo on most shelves but you can order it easily enough. I have plenty of range ammo, and hunting rounds. They all hit the same spot.
I bought my son a 7mm-08 when he was 12. It was perfect and did a great job on elk. Low recoil and a great first gun. He has grown so fast he has taken my 257 Weatherby and says it’s now his. Now that I think of it…I need to sell it to buy me a new 257??
I've got a Winchester 30.06 with a 3 x 9 Leopold scope that I won @ an RMEF banquet, sure it's engraved with RMEF Sponsor Member but no name.
I'll give it to ya JMC if ya meet me 1/2 way and toss me a few bucks for my fuel.
I don't want to go thru the FFL to your FFL place.
Good luck, Robb
Robb very generous of you. I bought her a rifle a couple days ago though. Thanks a bunch for offer!
Why not Let her shoot a few and pick one? Sometimes it’s more about the weight and fit of the rifle than the caliber. I’d suggest the .280, , .270 or 7mm-08, but any of those mentioned here will do the job with good bullets and a well placed shot.
I’ll add the suggestion that if your budget is $1500, spend 500 on the rifle and 1000 on the glass. You’ll be getting a “pretty good” scope in that price range. Good scopes are not cheap, and cheap scopes are not good.
7-08, Remington Model 7, 120 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip over Win 760 powder. Not bad for a gun built in the mid '80's ;-)
A .243 under 300 yrds actually is better then a 6.5 creed. After 300 yrds the creed shines
Built in the 80s ha you should get a pre 64, M70
Out of my price range. ;-)
DanaC, nice group. What is the barrel length on the Model 7?
129 gr SST hornady oin 6.5 Creedmoor
129 gr SST hornady oin 6.5 Creedmoor
Rock - not so. Only things the 243 does better under is an inch or two in trajectory and it loses that advantage after 500 yards. Below is the hornady 129 SST in 6.5 creed.
Here is the 95 gr SST in 243. Keep in mind, the SST series are the hottest factory ammo that Hornady produces.
JohnMC - how does the gun shoot?
Lots of humor to me in this thread, first off, not one single mention of the 260 rem, a 308 necked down to 6.5. Then comparing a 243 to the 6.5 creedmoor completely leapfroging over all the outstanding 25s
Myself personally will not hunt open country with a rifle with a mv less than 3000fps As I previously said the Creedmoor is sloooooow My 6.5×284 pushes a 130 @ 3300
Timex- The military chose the 6.5 creed because of it's short action and efficiency past 500 yards. The 260 rem doesn't beat it past 500. Speed is only part of the equation. I've shot big bucks with subsonic .30 call bullets going less than 1,000 fps and the bullets zipped right through and the deer died in less than 100 yards.
My 340 Weatherby pushes a 225gr Hornady at 3200. ;)
Timex? - a medium range load for a .270 pushing a 150 gr bullet is less than 3,000 fps and way more than adequate for open country western big game.
Thornton Again it humors me. They are both short action cartridges and although a few 100 fps isn't a big deal, especially in long range target shooting the exact same bullet one moving faster than the other, the slower bullet is never gonna equal the faster one .....don't even know what your thinking
Cnelk............. My magnum gun trigger anxiety on the bags , days are over with.
The range card for my load
The range card for my load
HDE....... The 270 is a great cartridge no doubt....when I decided to build a custom been field gun my 1st choice was a 6mm rem Ackley improved. But krieger barrels didn't offer that chamber so I went with the 6.5×284 ....glad I chose the later. Basically +3" at 100 is -4" at 400
260 Rem 129 gr SST Hornady
260 Rem 129 gr SST Hornady
I certainly hope you don't think yourself to be smarter or more well I formed than the guys at Hornady. Here is the exact weight of bullet, the same series of cartridge, directly from the advertised Hornady ballistics chart on the 260 Rem. Note: at extended ranges, the 6.5 Creedmoor surpasses the 260 Rem in trajectory, energy, and velocity. A number of outdoor writers have addressed this already Timex, and the military has already ordered plenty of ARs chambered in the six five creed and the Hornady TAP ammo. Feel free to view Hornady ballistics in caliber comparison at your leisure. Also note, I own many, many calibers and actually prefer the 7 mag or 7 PRC.
Nothing to do with the OP either. Like many above
Just got in the house from shooting my elephant rifle. 416 Rigby with a Trijicon SRO 1 For an accurate group, above Then fast bolt cycling and firing below. Ready for Zimbabwe ????
The 260 has a slightly bigger case capacity. It CAN launch the same 6.5 bullet faster. Hornady's factory loads happen to launch the 129 SST 20 fps slower in the 260.
The Creedmoor's shorter case and shoulder angle are more conducive to long, higher BC bullets and generally will have faster twist barrels to accommodate them.
If building a custom rifle where you can choose twist and maybe a little longer throat in the chamber, the .260 will outrun it.
That said, it doesn't matter. Carrying a .260 vs a 6.5 CM won't be the deciding factor on how a hunt ends.
I agree 100% on the hunt ending part. Deer or elk won't know the difference. I've always found it interesting in handgun and rifle caliber tests using controlled expansion or hollowpoints in ballistic gel resulted in very similar penetration results whether it was a magnum caliber or not. Have a good hunt. The only reason I speak up on the Creedmoor is there is a lot of bashing on the nearly perfect, mid-range caliber that I've used on 8 big game animals with excellent results. Most of the bashers have no experience killing big animals with it.
Thornton......... You do realize ( I hope) that the 260 rem & the 6.5 Creedmoor are both 6.5 mm cartridges. Shooting the exact same bullet and your attempting to say that the exact same bullet going slower outperforms the faster bullet.
Perhaps your confusing the 6mm rem with the 260 rem.
Or perhaps your comparing 2 different bullet designs of the same weight but one has a higher bc than the other. ... But that isn't an apples to apples comparison, now is it !!!
Myself personally reload & not stuck with factory load offerings.
I don't know brother But I ain't drinking your kool-aid.
I just read the Creed with a 129 grain SST in Superperformance loaded ammo gets a whopping 20fps more then the 260 with a regular load of 129 SST. So then what is the regular loading velocity for the Creed?
Thornton...Here ya go ... directly from the Hornady reloading manual.
6.5 mm 129 grain spire point.
At any point do you see the slower bullet outperforming the faster one.
I'll wait.........
Thornton...Here ya go ... directly from the Hornady reloading manual.
6.5 mm 129 grain spire point.
At any point do you see the slower bullet outperforming the faster one.
I'll wait.........
Downrange energy trumps muzzle velocity. Because a bullet kills by energy, it matters.
A better pic. Don't want any confusion.
"I just read the Creed with a 129 grain SST in Superperformance loaded ammo gets a whopping 20fps more then the 260 with a regular load of 129 SST. "
That's gonna vary from gun to gun, depending on chamber dimension, barrel length etc. Totally not 'significant.' The 'popularity' of the 6.5 drove up the price of .260's and other 6.5's. Ballistically they're close but the faster twist of the CR means it stabilizes heavier-for-caliber bullets better. 'Real world'? Meh.
My kids used a 7mm-08 with the solid copper/alloy bullets. They retain most all their weight so as not to lose any energy going into the critter. I just got the super cheap Savage arms with the plastic stock. Very light weight but plenty accurate enough. It shot less than a box of bullets before the kids decided they didn't really like hunting. They like shooting, just not hunting.
A fan of the quarter bore. Have a 257 Roberts, 25-06 and a 257 Weatherby.
Have no doubt in the ability of the 25-06 or the 257 weatherby ability to take a elk.
.25 anything is a mistake with Elk in my opinion
Killed several with a variety of .25s. Tracked lots more than with the 30s and 33s
Do what makes you have fun and makes you want to argue
Timex, I mentioned the 260 if that’ll stop the humor. ??
Killing animals with a rifle has more to do with bullet construction than caliber of gun.
A fan of the quarter bore. Have a 257 Roberts, 25-06 and a 257 Weatherby.
Have no doubt in the ability of the 25-06 or the 257 weatherby ability to take a elk.
John. I don't know about rifle calibers I live in a part of New York that does not allow them, that being said, I'm a marksman with my .22 caliber, and a 20 gauge semiautomatic shotgun... past situations with higher caliber or larger shotguns made me flinch terribly and took away my confidence.
If their is a way to have her shoot different calibers or rifles that she feels comfortable with before purchasing one, I believe would be a step in the right direction. scentman
re Spike - "Killing animals with a rifle has more to do with bullet construction than caliber of gun. "
That is far more true now than in the past. Back when 'cup and core' bullets were the norm and the Nosler Partition was still on the horizon, Robert Ruark's 'Use Enough Gun' meant going bigger and heavier. Today you can load really good 130-140 grain bullets in everything from 6.5 to big 30's and kill about anything that walks. If I take another deer with my 7-08 it will be with 120 grain pills. I may carry 140 grain Barnes TSX's for bear next week. I'd put that load up against anything this side of grizzly/brown bears. (Probably opt for a longer barrel...)
Timex- not sure if you're looking at a reloading manual or what. These are the most common factory bullet and cartridge offering Hornady currently has. I use them because they seem to be as accurate as reloads or better, and the Hornady ballistics app is spot on as far as I want to shoot. To my knowledge, the factory Superformance series shoots faster than other factory offerings from other companies. Shot several bulls with the SST in 129 gr going 2950 fps out to 356 yards.
Thornton earlier in this thread i posted pictures directly from the Hornaday reloading manual. You were saying the slower bullet out preformed the faster one. Perhaps true if two different bullet designs. But if both bullets are identical, thats complete bs, I haven't shot factory loads in over 40 years...not saying there's not plenty accurate factory amo out there , I just prefer loading my own and a perfect example would be my two custom 6.5x284 rifles. One is a rem 700 action with kreiger barrel jewell trigger, the other a savage 110 that I re barreled myself with a criterion barrel rifle basics trigger. There's easily an 1/8" difference in bullet seating depth between the two different chambers. In my opinion seating bullets to the rifling is the single most important factor in accurate loads. Factory rounds are loaded to an industry standard and by using them in most cases I believe your leaving a guns full potential on the table. If your happy with 1" at 100yds that's great , and more than adequate out to 300 or so. If you want to play at 500+ yards you best be cutting holes at 100 or your in for some real disappointment.
.I get the same groups out of a few of my factory rifles with factory Hornady ammo. "Play past 500 yards" is one of my favorite pastimes as I often practice to 750 and 950 yards. 2 of my kills were 507 yards exactly with the Creedmoor. I do have a few old hunting rifles that do 1", but these two are not in that category.
Here ya go brother ....I'll shoot with ya any day. 29" Krieger barrel mtu taper 1" to 1 1/4"
Rem700 action squared by Krieger, oversized recoil lug, 8oz jewell trigger, full aluminum block bedded stock
Here ya go brother ....I'll shoot with ya any day. 29" Krieger barrel mtu taper 1" to 1 1/4"
Rem700 action squared by Krieger, oversized recoil lug, 8oz jewell trigger, full aluminum block bedded stock
Once again Timex, I have a hard time believing you shoot very far with a scope that doesn't even have exposed turrets or much elevation under those caps to start with. Do you "hold over" for shots past 300 yards? I have 880 yards out my back door to fling lead. Got bored with it after ammo went sky high.
It looks like it's time to get out the tape measure
400 yards with the old 12x
400 yards with the old 12x
600 yards with the old 12x
600 yards with the old 12x
The current scope on the rifle
The current scope on the rifle
Thornton that pic Is 8 years old & that's an old fixed 12x Leopold target scope with 1/4 moa dot reticle. The rifle currently has a Hawke 8x32 x 56 scope
Thornton.......like you having a hard time believing someone can shoot distance without scope turrets.
I find it hard to believe that someone claiming to be a long range target shooter doesn't reload.
Most important part is don't store them in a Liberty safe. Those guys are getting the Bud Light treatment at the moment.
I don't have a hard time believing it, because I did it for years until I discovered dialing in is precise. Cut my teeth shooting 3-9×40 and fixed 4x on my 243, 7 mag, and 30-06 as a teenager in the wide open Flint Hills. Longest holdover shot I ever made was on a buck running straight away at 455 yards. 7 mag nearly somersault him and he died instantly. Never heard of Hawke. Wouldn't have bought one anyway because they're Chinese. I've mainly switched over to all Leupold. Bought a couple of these off Midway for $700 and they are indestructible. Rightly so, because the military used them for decades. Only thing I don't like is lack of zero stop and lack of first focal plane, but there is a company that makes custom turrets and I'm zoomed in on 14x when I make a long shot anyway so no first focal plane needed.
I have a ffp scope & don't care for it. The reticle expands on higher magnification & contracts on lower settings I much prefer to have my holdovers memorized & turn the turret.
I know Thornton is always right and I hate to correct him because he could go postal so I'll just ask. Thornton you want to take a stab again as to where Leupold glass comes from?
You probably don't so another question. What is that in your scope pic, looks like a golden retriever
I full well know where all optics glass comes from. Unless the glass is ground by European optics companies, they buy them in lots, from Japan, the Phillipines, China, etc. What Leupold does do, is design, manufacture, and assemble their stuff right here in the USA with our internal parts-the stuff that matters when it's used hundreds or thousands of times. I can see how you might mistake that doe at 330 yards as a golden retriever, since you've bragged about killing. Feel free to shut your trap and stay off my conversations.
Thorton your blowhard self is the one that took over my "conversation" so kettle be careful what you are calling the pot.
I'm not talking to you John, I'm talking to Timex. I figured your conversation was over after you bought the 7mm08 Vanguard.
Thornton no need to send me PMs calling people piece of ....
Got my popcorn and beer out for this thread.
John,
I sure hope that 7mm 08 you bought 100 posts ago will do the job? Seemed like a good decision for what you needed.
But......Thornton will argue to death that he is correct forever because anything he does is the right way. We all know he is the authority on firearms here on bowsite. All someone had to do was mention his name. (Thanks T-Roy)
The best rifle threads are just like the best bowhunting truck threads. The best ones are always the one that the poster has, just ask them.
I for one, can't wait to see your daughter's picture here with an elk she killed with the gun you bought her. Good luck. The gun she uses don't matter.
No doubt that 'factory' ammo and even 'entry level' guns have improved over the years. Better machining of rifle barrels and receivers, better alignment of chamber and bore, closer tolerances everywhere. Better cartridge designs and bullets, even in factory ammo. (Better brass, too.)
If I was starting out today I might not bother with reloading, but in the mid-80's it made sense to. There were exactly two factory loads in 7-08. Easy to improve on! I shot the then-new Nosler Ballistic Tips and then the Barnes X - the originals with no grooves. Even tried a box of the blue 'plastic' coated ones. (Anyone else remember those?)
Old enough now to say - danged kids today have it too easy! ;-)
I innocently got into reloading for performance, accuracy & saving $$$ There's a lot more to reloading than most folks realize. A great example would be the same cartridge & same bullet shot from two different barrel lengths. For instance a rem 742 in 308 with 22" barrel & a rem 700 in 308 with 26" barrel. Ideally a faster burn rate powder will preform better in the short barrel & a slower burn rate powder will preform better in the longer barrel, factory ammo leaves a lot of performance & accuracy potential on the table.
With that said......... these days for me it's all about the experience of doing as much as I can on my own. I haven't bought factory fletched arrows in probably 30 years nor have I bought a screw in broadhead in about the same amount of time.
This time last year I bought a used savage 110. I bought the tools to re barrel it myself and built myself a rifle, the pride I get from hunting with a gun I built with ammo I loaded just adds so much more reward to the entire experience for me.
Turned a $150.00 pawn shop savage 110 into this. 100% gunsmith work done myself.
I'm extremely proud of this rifle & shoots great. Killed 6-7 deer & head shot a Thanksgiving turkey with it last season.
Interested ??? Check out, Northland shooters supply. Everything needed to build your own. Find yourself a deal on an old beat up rem 700 or savage 110 and go for it !!!
You won't regret the 7mm-08. I don't understand the comments about recoil for that caliber. I've got two of them and can't see a significant difference in felt recoil to my .243s and .257 Roberts
Had a 284win once. It's actually an old cartridge & the forefather of all the short mag & prc type cartridges. With reloads the 284win can get extremely close to the 7mag & its a short action cartridge. Think of it as a 7mm08 on steroids. The 7mm08 shoots a 140 @ 2600 the 284win shoots the same bullet @ 3100.
And when the cartridge is necked down to 6.5 it's even more impressive, pushing 130s @ 3300
The op made an excellent choice for his daughter. Just bringing up the 284win for discussion purposes, for those short action 7mm fans.
"The 7mm08 shoots a 140 @ 2600"
Umm, where did you get that number? Hodgdon lists loads close to 2800 (24" barrel, to be sure...) Even higher with a few powders. (I am itching to get my hands on some Win. Staball 6.5)
Nothing wrong with the 284 but I can't remember seeing ammo for it on the shelf.
Directly from the Hornaday reloading manual. ***IMPORTANT*** gun used in this load development was a rem 742 with 18,1/2" barrel.
DanaC.....bullet manufacturers will boast the highest fps on cartridge box labels to get sales.....
The only factory loaded 284win I've ever seen is the old Winchester super X, loaded with 150 grain Silvertip.
It's a fantastic short action cartridge but reloading is a must ....
I've found the Hornady manuals are very 'conservative' compared to other data sources. The Hodgdon website (and their 'annual manuals') are excellent sources. The Nosler and Barnes sites are also useful.
We have a tikka t3 compact in 308, great gun that has done it all. Light weight, sub moa and has killed moose, mt goat, deer, bear for us. I have a vortex pst 4x16 on it, which is a little overkill but it has zero problems 800 yards and in ringing steel. The pic is my wife with her moose from last fall.
Dang Timex. I have that same reloading book that my dad used when he started reloading. Mine is the hardback. That sucker is old. I bought a new book to compare and some things are quite a bit different in my new book
Todd, what edition is that Hornady manual? I have the ninth, published in 2012. Their website says the newest is the eleventh. Mine lists 140 grain 7-08 up to 2900, from a 24" barrel. Nowadays seems like they all test with 24's, which is a sort of 'standard' even though many hunters opt for 22" in non-magnum calibers. If I were shopping again I'd look for a 22" Bergara...
Loading manuals are just starting points. A chronograph and case preasure signs for each individual gun are what I use. My old hornady manual is edition #3. Started reloading in the early 80s with Lee tap in, tap out, neck size dies.
These days with the internet a loading manual isn't even necessary.
I started mid-80's with a Lee turret press. Press eventually broke, still have some turrets if anyone needs them (3 die version)
