Bowsite.com

In my area the biggest problem these days is trophy hunting. Nobody gives a damn about killing does & freezer full of venison. They just want that trophy pic on fb.

Lobbyists push for a rule, legal changes that don't make any sense all the time. No public discourse or debate, especially if snuck in an omnibus bill.

Next spring, I should be asking for netting, spearing, traps, seins, harpoons, snagging on my favorite lake or stream for gamefish to be placed in an omnibus bill making it legal. No public discourse, no debate, just active lobbying with a state rep who is clueless.

Just think of the extra lisc. revenue, inclusivity and diversity it will address, recruit new anglers too! The manufacturers can make a lot more money selling all the new equipment as well.

I can't speak for all states. But it's a fair guess that the east coast & inland adjacent states have or are on the verge of whitetail deer heard overpopulation.

I feel your pain , especially if you only have public land to hunt , in my area the farmers are at the end of the rope, basically city folks come here pay $$$$$$ land lease fees but then only trophy hunt & the crop damage from way to many deer nullifies the $$$$$$ they get. I'm sorry but the xgun has absolutely zero affect in my area.

I don’t hunt for anyone but me. And, I don’t worry about what others want to hunt with. But, the crossbow is going to eliminate the vertical bow at the rate we are going. And, that’s the danger of it. Not its effect on populations.

Make a separate season. Let it run concurrent with bow season if it’s determined to be needed. But, call it some kind of hunting besides bow hunting.

Fixed it for you.

There is a HUGE difference between being able to draw and shoot a trad bow vs. bring proficient enough with it to ethically hunt big game.

IMO, from shooting and hunting with trad bows for over 50 years, and shooting with a hell of a lot of trad shooters at big and small shoots, probably 80% of trad shooters have no business flinging an arrow at an animal. Maybe even more than that.

BUT….

It’s not entirely fair to judge a bowhunter’s skills or ethics based on his performance at a 3D shoot, where he is taking his shots from whatever distance the course-setters have decided is appropriate for sifting the wheat from the chaff and declaring a Winner. Recalling that those stakes are specifically set to make the best shots miss.

And FWIW, the fact that “most” single-string shooters are not performing up to your expectations is not a good and sufficient reason to lower the barrier to entry into the sport for ygem or anyone else. JMO, the good thing about Enlightened Self-Interest is that (just a hunch) if the compound had never been invented, an overwhelming majority of the people who currently hunt Archery seasons would be hunting Firearms, where they might stand a reasonable chance of filling a tag from time to time…

The main reason I take issue with the point raised in the video is that it presupposes that Hunters COMPETE with other Hunters, and THAT is a straight-up Perversion of what (IMHO) Hunting should ever be About.

On the Hunt, we compete against our quarry’s natural defenses; we compete against ourselves to simply Get Better At Hunting. But that’s as far as it should ever go and clearly, the sense of competition goes MUCH further.

Yeah, my sensibilities on the topic were thoroughly warped at an early age by reading A Sand County Almanac when I was probably 12 or 13, but I heard the echos just the other night reading A Thousand Campfires, which is coming up on 40 years old. So maybe I’m an anachronism. I’m FINE with that.

Your own experience with a recurve/longbow is ample evidence that these simpler tools are entirely adequate, and that any shortcomings lie firmly in the hands of the operators.

And FTR…. I have no issue with the use of crossbows by anyone with a physical limitation OTHER THAN physical immaturity. If people want to hunt bow-only areas during firearms seasons, what better solution could there be? But Archery Seasons almost universally confer numerous advantages over firearms seasons BECAUSE of the limitations imposed by the “lesser” weapon. I don’t know that the compound merits the same level of offset that a single-string bow does (and am strongly inclined to say that it does NOT), but the crossbow clearly obliterates that Line.

Earlier someone said “I’m using the same back, shoulder, neck, bicep, forearm muscles for a recurve or compound.”

You might use “the same muscles”, friend, but you sure as hell are NOT doing the same work. And what you ARE doing (with your bow which can be “held” at full draw by resting it on your knee) is HELLA closer to what a crossbow shooter does than to what a stickbow shooter must do.

Here, let me make it easy. You are wussies if do not turn your own cedar shafts from a tree you planted decades prior then using fletching from birds you harvested and stone arrowheads you chipped. Now, the yew long bow needs a string you made. If you draw blood and do not retrieve that deer before any meat spoils then are forever demoted to the other side of the wussie line. No binoculars. No rangefinders. No GOS. No game cameras. No ATVs. Only clothes you made from animal skins or wool you wove. You process the game meat and the internal organs. How many of you make the cut?

Including them in bow season is the number one enemy of bowhunting. Nothing else comes close to reducing the amount of bowhunters.

Inclusion may be a positive for selling tags or increasing harvest numbers and that may be worth it depending on perspective, but its not good for the future of bowhunting.

What rules are not susceptible to being changed by a huge omnibus bill that nobody reads? What committees, biology professionals, wildlife managers, trade groups, non-profits; the general public MUST be involved before a rule change is made?

Timing limits? Last few minutes of a meeting 2:55 AM or during normal, reasonable business hours? Location of public meetings? Spread out or always at the capitol that has limited access or parking, in high crime areas? Rule changes temporary or basically forever?

These are the kinds of issues to be considered otherwise hunting and fishing, and likely many other facets of our life can be changed by politicians, lobbyists or others who don't care or have nefarious intentions. The antis take advantage of these flaws all the time. They actively lobby 24/7, 365. Don't skip out during hunting season.

When I attended public forums, committee meetings, have personal discussions with wildlife managers, DNR representative, local enforcement the comeback is often: "..that rule can only be changed by the legislative process." Uh Huh, well what happens if that process is seriously flawed?

Oh, in case anyone is interested I have also dabbled in making my own bow, arrows, broadheads, clothing, stands; tied flies made decoys and lures, and yes walked or took a bicycle to a hunting or fishing area. Not everyone can or should do this, but cripes we always should have the opportunity to discuss it. Carry on.

the exact same thing can be...and was...said about the advent of the compound bow.

The skill gap between a compound and a crossbow is very small compared to the gap between them and traditional. If one considers a crossbow cheating ("cheating" another competition implication) over a compound then where does baiting fit in? I think a pile of corn lessens the skill of the hunt way more than a crossbow.

As others have stated, only about 20 % or so are serious and good enough to be hunting with traditional equipment. Most are just novelty types.

—Jim

I consider myself a traditionalist in that I grow, kill, catch a large percentage of our food. The food itself is what's important to me, far more so than with what tools, weapons, tackle, etc were used to obtain that food.

Hope you can understand.

You still have to draw a bow, compound or stick bow. Not so with a crossbow. That’s what really separates them in my mind. It takes experience on when and when not to draw a bow. Totally eliminated with a crossbow.

The inclusion of crossbows for anyone in PA's archery season has made everyone a "bow" hunter. It is what it is and that train has left the station so we are stuck with it here in PA. That doesn't mean that I have to agree with or like any of it, I don't.

If someone other than a legit, medically disabled person can't pull back a vertical bow for whatever the reason then they should not archery hunt. Kids can either wait to archery hunt until they can pull back a bow or they can just gun hunt and I feel the same about seniors. Those are unpopular opinions but they are my opinions and they don't really mean shit to anyone but me.

I will continue to shoot my recurve everyday, hunt with it and kill deer. I will try not to get pissed about things I can't control like the usage of crossbows for everyone in PA's archery season. Life is too short.

Man, you nailed my thoughts exactly! I've said it before and caught backlash for it but that's how I feel too.

It does to me. It's called petty arrogance.

Pat said "show me a compound that is cocked and ready to shoot with a scope ", well I just did. They make magnified scopes for compguns, you use a trigger release and you cock it and hold the 20 lbs until the deer is in shooting distance. What do you think the trophy books would be filled with if recurves and longbows were the only bows allowed during archery season? The size of a "trophy" has bastardized hunting, it's all about the egos of hunters and how great they are killing a big horn/antlered animal, it somehow makes them better. Pick up a recurve or longbow and hunt strictly with that weapon for an entire season and then let's see the pics?

You can use whatever weapon you want as long as it's legal, and for guys who use compounds that are built to make bow hunting easier make fun or criticizing others for the weapon they choose is a joke!!! For all the trophy guys who have shot nothing but a compound, buy a recurve or longbow and practice for next season and see what happens,I'd be willing to bet not one of you will.

It's the DNR that has allowed xbows to shrink the herds so blame them, it's that simple. The nerve of you compound guys bitching about xbow , please.

" And what you ARE doing (with your bow which can be “held” at full draw by resting it on your knee) is HELLA closer to what a crossbow shooter does than to what a stickbow shooter must do."

I know, right!!! I was remembering all times I nestled the stock of my compound against my shoulder, the forearm resting on a tripod or secured to another rock solid mount, fingers wrapped around the pistol grip, peering thru the 6X scope with lighted reticle, range pre-set by the bluetooth range finder, snicking the safety off, squeezing the trigger and collecting the everybody can be a bowhunter participation trophy.

LB,

Been bowhunting PA for forty years. Never saw a draw lok, or scope on a compound. Or mounted to a tripod, like a crew served weapon. And I have yet to see anyone hold their compound at full draw with their knee.

I can fully understand someone limited to public land & also the added preasure in western draw states. But in va on Private land. It's just none of my business what another chooses to hunt with.

I listed all the differences. You're unwilling to see them. And I know quite a few recurcve shooters that use a sight, clicker, ...

Again for the galatcically obtuse: A xbow, is a stock equipped, shoulder mounted, tripod secured weapon. A compound is not. BTW, the month(s) long seasons we enjoy. Thank us compgunners. We secured it thru the late 70's, 80's and 90's. Ya'll were to busy looking for your arrows to form a homogenous group to accomplish anything. Now that should really get the ball rolling...

And, yes, I've been outspoken about my dislike for baiting in the past. But , as I was sitting in my manufactured tree stand this morning, with my compound bow, range finder, and Swaro binos in hand, I realized how hypocritical it is to complain about baiting.

Matt

I have been an archer/bowhunter since I was old enough to do it. Its awesome and I want to see it thrive. As Pat stated, inclusion is causing dramatic changes to bowhunting. Maybe not individually in a guys back 40 but overall.

I would have rather seen bow season continue to be limited to bows.

JTreeman - it means making a big deal out of what someone is doing that is automatically far superior than what someone else is doing. Kind of like that splinter and moat in the eye analogy...

If you care about the future of bowhunting...it is a VERY big deal! Since the crossbow was legalized in Indiana (by politicians mind you), the majority of our archery shops have closed their doors, membership in the Indiana Bowhunter Association has dwindled substantially and it didn't take long for crossbow harvests to outnumber archery harvests...and it gets worse every year. Bowhunters in Indiana are now a minority in a season specifically created for bowhunting.

My grandson started out deer hunting with a crossbow because he could not pull a legal draw weight for bowhunting. Within a day, he was a better shot with that crossbow than I am after 40+ years of shooting a compound. He killed two bucks the past two years with the crossbow...perfect shots...both deer on the ground within 70 yards.

This year, he wanted to switch to the compound, so I bought him a new bow. He practiced all summer in his backyard and prior to season from a treestand. He would already be tagged out with the crossbow...but has not yet drawn blood with the compound. He's been picked off drawing his bow and missed his only shot to date...at 20 yards. We have one weekend left and I'm really hoping he gets another opportunity. He definitely has experienced the difference in difficulty between that crossbow and his compound. My biggest concern is that he will eventually ask to put down in compound in favor of the crossbow. Fortunately, that hasn't happened yet.

Anyone that actually believes shooting a compound is closer to shooting a crossbow than a recurve probably needs to see a doctor. The physical aspects between a recurve and compound are very similar...just like the physical aspects between shooting a crossbow and a rifle are very similar. Those are facts, not opinions.

To be clear, Don H was up front about his statement only applying to those physically capable of drawing a bow...but choosing the crossbow instead. He's right!!!!

Fir the love of hunting I guess we’re fortunate fir the crossbow. It’s a double edge in the fact it has changed many things drastically.

I am in full agreement of the young buck’s bragging about shooting deer at 60-90 yds with crossbows. They’ll probably never have that feeling of having a monster to close to shoot them. I’ve been there done that. Plus I’ve killed them at a few feet. Those memories and todays memories of my dad still being able to go is what I cherish. Not the head of a monster whitetail on the wall.

Shane

I heard Indiana took away the use of xbows except for elderly and disabled due to the kill numbers skyrocketing, any truth to this?

This year, he wanted to switch to the compound, so I bought him a new bow."

see how that works?

maybe in a few more years hell want to try a recurve...and then maybe a selfbow. arent you just glad hes out there?

im old enough to remember when people were saying the compound was much too efficient and it would be the end of bowhunting. that was about 50 years ago and bowhunting is still going strong

How yall think the flintlock crowd feels about that.

i think you might be surprised. know a number of crossbow hunters that have switched to compounds...including my son in law. i know dozens who started with a compound and have switched to recurves or longbows. i even know a few that hunt with all three depending on what they are hunting...what time of year it is...and where they are hunting. some people just get a kick out of trying anything new. i even know a kid that has taken deer with a crossbow his dad made in hs shop class.

regardless of what chicken little says...the bowhunting sky is not falling.

Take a look at what just happened in Minnesota, it took only three weeks (once legal) for the scope d crossbow kill to overcome the bow kill. Google the article if in doubt.

I bet quite a few. Why don’t you only have bows and arrows?

if we both agree the sky isnt falling...what does it really matter? is anyone telling us we must use a crossbow? we all still have the choice of what we want our challenge to be. i choose a longbow...my son in law chooses a compound (used to use a crossbow)...and my brother in law chooses a crossbow. we all get along just fine.

Not my intent to be rude, but yall are basically like some crochedy old women bitching just to bitch about something that ya unfortunately have no control over, the xbow is here to stay. The only real solution is to obtain permission on private land so you can control the situation.

Anything other than that is simply out of your control.

Crossbow to compound is totally different than compound to trad bow. Heck half the trad bow guys out there use it so they have a built in excuse as to why they can’t kill anything ;)

Well, nope.

“Why have separate seasons, just have one season and use any weapon you choose. I would be fine with that, how about the rest of you ?”

I’m gonna guess that the “One-Percenters” who own or lease large amounts of land would be delighted by that…. and those who work hard on Public will tell you to go sit on a broadhead… Dull one. Probably barbed.

JMO, Hunting is a Wildlife Management tool; seasons and weapons restrictions are Hunter Management tools. The “One Big Season” option (pronounced “Oh, BS”) eliminates a whole raft of tools, so that’s a non-starter.

JMO, the impact of crossbow inclusion has varied from state to state, with the biggest effects where hunting was the worst to begin with. People who are generally pretty happy with the hunting experiences that they have aren’t probably changing their behavior as drastically as in states where archery seasons are 4 or 5 times longer and Shotgun tags (for ONE deer) are by lottery only while Archery tags (for 2 or more deer) are OTC.

Just a guess.

Not sure how the State here would deal with OBS when shotgun tags are rationed out for each unit so as to keep hunter density down to 1 gun for every 20 acres….

are you saying youd be fine with a much shorter...much more crowded season...starting much later in the year?

To answer the 1 season any weapon question... hell no! I love archery season and think it should be longer than other seasons. I also think firearm seasons during the rut is a management mistake, especially in plains states where length of vision can be rather long.

inclusion of crossbows in archery season is the least of our worries (as it pertains to game management) over the next 20 years. in my opinion, you (and others) have a personal animus against crossbows and the people who use them...and you just cant get over it. in all honesty...as a traditional only bowhunter...i used to feel the same way. yes...theyre easier than a compound...and a compound is easier than a recurve...and a recurve is easier than longbow or a self bow...and theyre all more difficult than a gun...and none of them have any bearing on how i choose to hunt.

I recently turned 62 & killed my first deer at age 11. In the 70s ya got 3 deer tags. 2 buck, 1 doe this was bow, muzzeloader, rifle combined. The doe tag could only be used the last 2 weeks. The next big thing was inline muzzeloaders & OMG they were gonna decimate the deer herd. They finally got the OK but (iron sights only) a few years later after the dust settled scopes got the OK. Then more doe tags & more doe days, then eventually unlimited doe tags & doe kill the entire season. Than again another OMG moment with the xbow & yet again after the dust settled. No significant impact whatsoever.

If you notice I usually always include an ,,,,in my area, or speaking for myself, in my posts. Because that's what I know.

I do take exception with Higgins’ statement. Labeling and mocking other hunters is bad for us all. I don’t like a bully in any way and that’s what I took from his comment on the clip in the link. Nothing personal John; I appreciate your humor and love your photography.

Was it REALLY that anyone thought that the deer population would suffer, or just that ML season would be ruined for ML hunters?

Up here, ML used to mean flinch-locks and PRB in a season where tags were tightly limited, by lottery only, and prior to Shotgun. I can’t tell you off-hand if smoothbores were also required, but there were plenty of guys willing to shoot a flintlock because the woods were far less crowded and success rates were good.

Post-Inlines, ML tags are unlimited, OTC; the season starts in December after two rounds of shotgun season and the success rate is always under 5%.

So basically, inlines have had zero effect on the deer herd, but a somewhat unique and thoroughly enjoyable public-land hunting opportunity has been completely destroyed. The impact of compounds and crossbows has been pretty much the same on public land archery, no matter what you hunt or where. It’s easy to say it doesn’t matter when you are blissfully unaffected, sitting there on your depredation permit.

If killing animals is all that matters, it doesn’t matter what you kill them with. But Archery & ML seasons were not lobbied for or put in place for the purpose of killing more animals — that’s just what they have spiraled down into.

for the record, i have never hunted with a crossbow in my life. i started hunting with a recurve in in the early 70s...switched to a compound in the 80s and back to a recurves and longbows in the 90s and have been hunting with them ever since.

i just dont happen to see crossbows as the evil boogieman that is going to be the death of bowhunting like some others here.

Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona and Washington allow crossbows during gun season, and during archery for handicapped.

Not a legal archery weapon in Montana.

Wyoming does seem to allow them for elk during archery season.

Canada? Seems to be only for handicapped during archery-only seasons.

I only looked at Maine for Moose and crossbows - it's not legal.

Seems to me - it's probably a matter of time before all big game allows the XBOW to be used during general archery season, but for now it's mainly whitetail deer across North America.

Wyoming doesn’t just seem to allow them during archery season, they do allow them…for all species, not just elk. Been that way for decades.

Since you brought up elk, I’ll give a couple reasons why I would emphatically oppose MB’s suggestion to create a one season/any weapon free-for-all. First off, allowing firearms to be legal state-wide during the rut would be beyond devastating for obvious reasons. On the flip side, having the season outside the rut would end my elk hunting days. As much as I love filling my tag, I love the thrill of calling them in even more. I have zero interest in not being able to chase bugles. Lastly, and probably most importantly, sending in an army of rifle hunters at the same time bowhunters are sneaking through the woods would be a recipe for disaster.

Nope. Only in areas where they can’t kill enough animals.

And Wyoming is onto a very practical (and JMO thoroughly objectionable) solution with allowing landowners to decide for themselves how many cow Elk they oughtta kill every year.

Personally, I figure that private landowners who want to keep everybody else out and keep the animals all to themselves should expect to pay the cost of feeding all of the animals that they’re hoarding whether the animals are eating Hay or Hostas, but that’s just me….

not in my lifetime.

different species are just that...different. different game populations...different hunter densities...different safety concerns.

I have a real nice 7mm that I can use in rifle season and enjoy that as well. I wouldn't want to hunt with my 7mm in archery or muzzle loader season.

I'd rather not see cross bows in archery or inlines in muzzle loader season but that's just my opinion.

Advancements in technology have significantly eroded and fractured hunting culture, tradition, and community. This is exactly what the antihunters want.

Currently there is a rapid decline in the use of hunting camps in the east, especially in areas such as Wisconsin and Michigan. Technology differences is only one factor, but it is a factor in the demise of many camps. I know this first hand. Bow and arrow hunting and the associated culture and tradition is in decline. Have you heard that one before ?

Advancements in technology have significantly eroded and fractured hunting culture, tradition, and community. This is exactly what the antihunters want.

Currently there is a rapid decline in the use of hunting camps in the east, especially in areas such as Wisconsin and Michigan. Technology differences is only one factor, but it is a factor in the demise of many camps. I know this first hand. Bow and arrow hunting and the associated culture and tradition is in decline. Have you heard that one before ?

honestly no.

what does choice of weapon have to do with participation in hunting camps?

baby boomers are aging out...younger people are busier...and many dont choose to spend their limited vacation time at a hunt camp...not to mention that hunting finds itself in competition with a whole host of other recreational activities. when they do decide to go hunting, many prefer to be as efficient with their time as possible...and in many cases that means more efficient weapons.

times change...people change...traditions change...weapons change...and game managers have to change accordingly.

Many landowners are already paying to feed big game. Deer hammer ag crops pretty hard. Many farmers would just as soon not have those losses when it's time to cut beans.

Bow and arrows were never meant to be an efficient weapon. In fact during many archery season conceptions, we were allotted only one deer tag. Bow and arrow hunters chose to be inefficient and hunt the hard way. This had little impact on populations hence the long archery seasons inclusive of vulnerable rutting times.

Thank you for pointing out that today's hunters only want to be more efficient. In other words, they put the quick kill above the actual hunt. I get it.

A lot of ppl, here, on this thread are bitching, moaning and complaining about his statement I don’t have a bitch. I thought his statement was succinct and accurate.

Personally, I don’t think he has helped anyone by dragging a totally unrelated hot-button issue into the conversation. He’s not trying to change any minds, but couldn’t resist an opportunity to play it for laughs…

As MoBreaks pointed out, the original intention behind Archery season was to set aside some low-pressure opportunity for those who just wanted to bowhunt, and were willing to forego the efficiency and the expected success rate of a more modern weapon in exchange for the privilege. If crossbows were consistent with the original Intent, they would have been included from Day One. But they were deliberately and specifically excluded, for Good and Sufficient Reasons. ‘Tis a moot, philosophical debate whether today’s compounds and accessories would have been excluded had they existed at the time, but it requires no extraordinary imaginative capacity to surmise that they would not have been, and for the same reasons that crossbows were.

Why the Crossbow Was Banned by the Catholic Church

As early as the late 1090s the ruling class of western Europe petitioned Pope Urban II to ban the use of the crossbow because of “its brutality in war.” The Pope complied, but the Papal edict did not seem to make much headway then or later; nor did it prevent the merchant guilds in London, Paris, Genoa, and Prague from continuing to manufacture and sell, at a handsome price, thousands of crossbows each year. Further, the fact that the foremost soldier of the age, Richard I of England (The Lionhearted), was an expert with the weapon did little to advance the anticrossbow crusade.

The Church, with the strong encouragement of the European nobility, tried again, if not to completely ban the weapon, then at least to have it pointed at non-Christians. The Second Lateran Council in 1139 decreed that the device was unfit for use by Christians, and that those who used the crossbow against anyone other than infidels (Muslims and heretics) would be placed under penalty of an anathema.

The prohibition was confirmed at the close of the same century by Pope Innocent III. Following the Church’s lead, and citing moral and religious reasons, Conrad III, Duke of Swabia and Holy Roman Emperor (1138-1152), forbade the use of the crossbow in his domains, which at that time meant all of central Europe. But the weapon was so popular on that part of the Continent, especially Bohemia, that the ban had the effect of quickening the spread of its use. Fearing contagion, the English aristocracy also banned the crossbow on religious grounds, but added a twist by giving the prohibition the color of civil law when inserting it into the Magna Carta of 1215.

Link to full article Some interesting history on the crossbow

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/the-medieval-crossbow-redefining-war-in-the-middle-ages/

first of all...historically speaking bows and arrows were intended to be an efficient weapon...more efficient than what preceded them...like rocks, spears, etc...but thats kind of beside the point in terms of modern hunting seasons.

second...we all still have that choice. nobody has taken that away. if i want to hunt deer with a self bow...cane shoots and knapped tips...wearing nothing but a loin cloth and moccasins...nobody is stopping me...or you.

yes...few people would disagree with that...not me for sure. what is also true is that deer populations then were nowhere near what they are now. we didnt need to kill as many deer then as we do now. in many areas we need to kill more deer in a single season than even existed in a single season back then. back then...they didnt want bowhunters to be too much of an impact. now they need bowhunters to be more of an impact.

people have to realize that the romance and tradition of what bowhunting was "originally meant to be" is a personal thing...and we all have the opportunity to make our personal experience whatever we want. if i want my experience to be just like bowhunting was "originally meant to be...i can do that. nobody is stopping me.

if someone else just wants the most efficient way to put an arrow through a deer...they can to that too. its not like theyre making crossbows legal and all other bows illegal.

game managers have a serious job to do and they will continue to add seasons...methods...weapons and bag limits in order to achieve their goals of properly managing the resource.

romance and tradition aside...that is the reality.

As I have mentioned, current archery seasons have been dumbed way down, very evident on this thread.

I never said that.

what i said was that is the goal for some hunters. for other hunters...its exactly the opposite. the job of the game managers is to allow for the engagement of the most hunters (game management tools) in an attempt to reach their game management goals. like it or not...you see yourself as bow hunter in the way they were "originally meant to be"...whereas the game managers see us all as management tools...regardless of the weapon we choose.

"Stop dodging the question."

what question am i dodging?

if anyone is dodging anything it is you. you are dodging the reality of the situation. you are dodging the reality of what your role is in modern game management.

What question was that again?

Seems to me we did a pretty good job of decimating the game herds long before any state legalized a separate bow and arrow season for non native hunters. Modern archery seasons were created not for game management, but rather as a time for hunters to challenge themselves with LESS efficient weapons which had minimal impacts on game populations.

I think some of you young squirts would do well by studying modern archery history and realizing what you have missed. In the meantime, good luck with your scoped and cocked more efficient bolt machines. Make sure your vice is tight. The rest of you, pick a spot and let an arrow fly. Good times to all.

first of all...to my knowledge nobody ever made that statement.

second...even if they had...the question has already been answered...multiple times.

"Modern archery seasons were created not for game management, but rather as a time for hunters to challenge themselves with LESS efficient weapons which had minimal impacts on game populations.

wrong. that might have been true for the original archery seasons...but that is nowhere close to the truth for "modern archery seasons."

we are in a situation in most areas were more impact is needed...not less.

"I think some of you young squirts would do well by studying modern archery history and realizing what you have missed."

im ceretainly no "young squirt...been bowhunting for close to a half century...but then again...im not the equivalent of the old duffer yelling at kids to keep off his grass.

i suggest you do a little research on "modern wildlife management." it just might open your eyes to how game departments are trying to manage wildlife in the 21st century.

i dont know about wisconsin but isnt cwd a large part of a deliberate attempt to reduce overall deer numbers? i know it is here in michigan. whether we like it or not...the bloated deer herds of the 80s 90s and early 2000s are a thing of the past and the game departments have every intention of making sure they dont return...and if it takes expanded seasons weapons and methods...that is what they are going to do.

(In my area, e & nw Va) the season dates haven't changed since I started deer hunting in 1970.

Bow, 1st sat in oct till 1st sat in nov.

Muzzeloader, 1st sat in Nov till 3rd sat in Nov.

Rifle, 3rd sat in Nov till 1st sat in Jan.

Deer limits have gone from 3 per season to unlimited per season.

Sunday hunting has been added.

The license cost in 1970 was state hunting $7.50 big game tags $7.50 This covered bow, Muzzeloader, rifle. Season & deer, bear, turkey, tags

Current cost is state hunting $23.00 big game tags (deer, turkey) $23.00 ( bear) $23.00 Bonus doe tags $18.00 for 6 tags. Archery, vertical bow $18.00 Archery, xbow $18.00 Muzzeloader, $18.00

In general the season structure hasn't changed one bit except for adding Sunday hunting.

License structure has changed & gone from a max of $15.00 to a minimum of $46.00. But we'll over $100.00 if you hunt all seasons. Plus bear & Bonus tags.

As far as game management changes go. The only significant change I've seen is that it cost more to kill more.

its a lot more complicated than just just to words but in a nutshell i think you answered your own question. lol

in order to kill more...the stakeholders (management tools)...as well as their weapon preferences... have to be taken into consideration.

what do you attribute that to?

in the up of michigan a harsh winter or two can decimate the deer herd for a decade or more. it sure isnt the crossbows.

Spoken like a True Blue Conservative. Good to know that you believe that laws should be freely modified to suit the preferences of the majority, who just don’t want to have to work that hard.

And FWIW, in the ‘20s and ‘30s, western deer herds were so large that there wasn’t “enough” grass for the sheep and cattle to eat. In the early ‘50s, a Colorado deer license was good for 2 of each sex. Just sayin’…. This is a big-ass country we live in, and if you don’t appreciate regional differences, you really oughtta stop and listen a minute, or maybe do a little research on your own.

Either way, in places like, oh, the entire Atlantic region, there could be a 6-month season for fully automatic weapons and it would not achieve the herd reduction objectives of the state wildlife managers. Ever. Hell, they could legalize helicopter gun ships and it wouldn’t make a dent. Because (just in case you haven’t noticed) reducing the deer population is not exactly a high priority on all of that private land on the other side of the PRIVATE PROPERTY - NO HUNTING signs. You know — the non-agricultural land with all of the deer-specific, monoculture food plots which have been put in to MAXIMIZE the growth of the resident herds?

It’s pretty simple, no matter where you go — there is no surplus of big game anywhere in this country on Public land, and there is no weapon system effective enough to kill animals where they don’t exist, or where there is no interest in killing them.

And gutting the entire purpose of ML and Archery seasons (HUNTER management) in a 100% foreseeably futile effort to address a WILDLIFE management problem is the epitome of Stupid.

...and spoken like a true blue liberal lefty. a total misrepresentation of what someone else said.

what i said was that laws should be modified to achieve the goals of the game managers...and the preferences of the stakeholders should be taken into consideration. that would include all stakeholders...not just one group. not just the bowhunting should be hard group...and not just the most efficient way to put an arrow through a deer group.

nice try...but you should really brush up on your reading skills.

in my opinion, what truly is the "epitome of stupid" is thinking that one person cant pursue their idea of bowhunting if at the same time someone else decides to pursue something different.

like i said before, i'm old enough to remember when the exact same things that are being said about crossbows were also said about compounds...just as vehemently and just as passionately. "compounds arent real bows"..."compounds are machines"..."compounds are for people looking for the easy way out"..."i can become proficient enough with a compound to kill a deer in an afternoon"..."too many deer will be killed and it will result in shorter seasons"...blah...blah...blah. yet here we are...the only real risk we have is that not enough young people are taking it up...regardless of the type of bow.

and the reason for that is pretty simple also. for the most part...public land is not the most optimal habitat and unless deer are severely overpopulated everywhere else...they have little reason to be there. deer will always gravitate to the best habitat with the least amount of pressure...and that is usually private land...regardless of what weapon the hunters are carrying.

Which is why I mentioned that helicopter gunships won’t get herds down to management objectives while private landowners continue to protect and propagate “their” herds…

So the point is that trashing the hunting experience on Public land will NEVER achieve the harvest objectives — it just makes Public land hunting SUCK even worse, prompting more and more Public Land Hunters to buy up Private and start farming their own herds.

So REALLY, if the managers in the deer-surplus states had any sense, they would stop degrading the experience of the specialty seasons (on Public) and go to a choose-your-weapon system so that more hunters could enjoy a higher quality experience. Then they need to ban baiting on public land entirely, and also at least on Private, at least within some reasonable distance from publicly hunted areas, so as to prevent public-land deer being drawn off into Private for the duration of the season. (How screwed up is THAT?) Frankly, I’d like to see ALL baiting banned, because I don’t believe that it works out in actual practice AT ALL as it was intended…

Then the states just need to provide either incentives for non-hunting landowners to open up their land to some reasonable amount of hunting, and/or some kind of penalty for those who are actively contributing to the overpopulation problem… like banning the feeding of wildlife and getting food plots legally classified as Feeding….. since that’s what it IS….

It’s either that or wait for some clever lawyer to file a civil suit against a deer farmer for having created a public nuisance by artificially elevating the deer density, thereby causing their client’s grievous injuries or wrongful death.

nobody ever disputed that...and why would you want or need to "combat that fact?"

you hunt any way you want within the law...and the next guy will hunt any way he wants within the law...and we all live happily ever after.

seems pretty simple.

From 2000 til my heart attack in 2010 I shot nothing but trad bows for deer ( no guns ) had no problems filling the freezer but a LOT OF PRACTICE WAS MANDATORY. after the heart attack I'm now shooting a 50lb Oneida lever bow, release & pins. Not much practice is needed. I haven't shot a deer past 30 yards with a bow in a long time.

You could say I've done it all. Well everything except the selfbow primitive stuff. And Olympic style recurve.

I fully understand the commitment & passion associated with the different types of Archery. And how one could despise the ease of operation of the xbow & especially put in the same category as other bow types.

But the facts are .....like it or not, their here to stay, so ya best just get over it & you do you & accept that others are gonna do as they please within the legal law.

Doesn't mean ya have to like it but it is what it is.

But the facts are .....like it or not, their here to stay, so ya best just get over it & you do you & accept that others are gonna do as they please within the legal law.

couldnt agree more.

if i could add one more thing it would be that wildlife departments have a job to do and while we might not like it...dwindling hunter numbers...fewer and fewer young people taking up bowhunting...and more and more recreational choices to choose from...they are going to do what they have to do to attract as many participants as possible.

if you think about it...in a healthy size deer herd that is appropriate for the habitat...somewhere between a quarter and a third of the deer have to die every year in order to keep the status quo. that is a pretty daunting task in terms of getting enough participants to participate...helping them be successful...getting them to kill enough does...and attempting to keep all the warring factions happy.

Unfortunately, that wasn't the mindset the inclusion advocates had when they fought hard to change bow season into something different to create a demand that didnt exist yet for a product.

same here....its even tougher when you have no let-off. lol

back in the day...archery shops had to adapt and start carrying compounds or they went out of business.

now they have to adapt and start carrying crossbows.

pretty sure lancaster sells everything and they are doing fine.

We are the ones to blame for not getting political active with the ramifications of what the x-gun factor will do. Of course the NRA did a run around to the Wi. bow hunters with Politicians getting it in following the bow season.

Would have been very simple by making bow hunting fingers on the string and we wouldn't be done this road.

Enjoy the hunt.

...so was the compound.

" just waiting to hit the western states and it will be a lottery to bow hunt on public land."

if the wildlife departments are doing their jobs...they will not allow a weapon that will adversely affect the resource. it's really that simple. those decisions should be based on what is happening on the ground there. whats right for michigan may or may not be right for montana. whats right for texas may or may not be right for wisconsin. hell whats right for southern lower michigan isnt always right for northern lower michigan...and certainly not for the up.

Perhaps it's just me, but ive always felt that bow hunting is more about being a good hunter & woodsman and consistently getting close to critters. Far more so than being a good shot with a bow. I've known some phenomenal target shooters that struggle to kill deer & I've know far more mediocre target shots that were absolutely deadly in the woods.

I feel sorry at times for hunters who have always done things the easiest way possible. Most of them don’t know what they’re missing.

Never really felt like I was a better hunter however. Compared to when I used a compound or gun.

Just hunt appropriately based on the weapon I am using. Wouldn't make much sense to sit in a creek bottom thicket with a big scoped long range 300 win mag , now would it.

Now, the market may have a much lighter xbow trigger out there but, if not, I'm more accurate with my compound out to 30. And I am no Robin Hood.

I also recognize my buying habits made the xbow inevitable. Chasing the newest, lightest, highest let-off, easiest tuning bows, highest vis. fiber optic (lit) pins, hair trigger release aids, etc. - it's just hypocritical to cry now.

As timex mentioned, I can only speak for the Commonwealth of VA. Every state can decide for itself and draw tag states may do well to exclude them. Of course, they would probably do well to cap compound performance capabilities, as well. But that is a topic for another day.

its interesting that you bring up fred bear. in reality...fred bear didnt really want anything to do with the compound...other than to profit from where he saw the market moving. he didnt shoot one...he didnt like shooting them...and to my knowledge never once killed an animal with one. fred did embrace new technology though...and he was all about introducing as many new people as possible to archery and bowhunting. he didnt have to personally like something in order to see its benefits or potential.

interestingly enough...fred bear parted ways with his original bowyer (nels grumley) because nels didnt like the direction archery was going. grumley believed that each bow should be hand made and not mass produced in a factory setting. basically...grumley didnt think that was the way things were "meant to be."

just goes to show you that every time advances are made...someone or some group is going think its not the way things were "meant to be."

time marches on...

Been long ago but several friends of mine would always hunt the gw national forest west of front Royal va. They would hunt the first week of rifle season.

Here's the kicker, they would pack in beyond any day hunters reach and camp the entire week. By the 2nd or 3rd day they'd be overrun with deer. They also enjoyed fantastic native brook trout fishing as well.

Basically they used the hoards of hunters that only ventured a short distance from their vehicles to their advantage.

When the deer moved deeper into the woods , they were there.

hey...wait a minute. are you saying the deer might actually still be there on public land...and maybe they havent all been killed by those lazy crossbow hunters that never venture beyond the sight of their truck? lol

I’ve often wondered if shoulder injuries and crossbows are a chicken in the egg thing.

Do people carry crossbows because they’ve got sore shoulders that are broken down or did they get sore wrecked shoulders from lugging those monstrous contraptions around

CWD is more apparent in older age class deer because they have more chances of getting it. It's almost like mercury in older fish. Where CWD is around, the older a deer is, the higher the likelihood it has CWD. So the state wants to reduce average age to reduce number of deer that have CWD. It's not ACTUALLY about what constitutes archery and what doesn't. Or so the theory goes anyways...

I did 8 months of rigorous PT this past spring and summer, then dialed a compound down to 52 pounds, so I could hunt with a bow this year. Or I could have gone down to Wal Mart and bought a crossbow, sighted it in, and been good to go. From what I experienced this year in WY, it appeared many did just that. I could have killed a great bull I called straight in that never gave me the opportunity to draw my bow. With a crossbow, automatic.

Even the crossbow hunter camped near me at one spot was complaining about it, and he finally got frustrated and decided to wait until rifle season to keep hunting.

I can't speak to the Midwest, but where I hunt in WY, crossbows have certainly had a detrimental effect on the quality of the bowhunting experience, in a relatively short time.

Hunting with a crossbow was never going to be an option for me and it never will be. I'll either learn to shoot with a mouth tab or quit bow hunting and gun hunt if I can't pull a bow back.

Crossbows are here to stay in PA archery season but that doesn't mean I have to like it or use one.

The Director of MNDNR stated this year as the x-gun became inclusive that it will bring more gun hunters into the so called bow deer bow season and that is a whole different mentality coming into a bow hunt. Bowhunting doesn't need more people it just needs better hunters.

Have no problem with physical disabled x-gun users but a healthy person is just another slob that bow hunting doesn't need, I'll stand by this.

HunterR's assessment of eastern hunter mentality is spot on, the Wisconsin forum will prove that fact.

Overall changes will need to be made to have quality experiences in those settings.

When it comes to western species, mule deer, elk, pronghorn I believe crossbows have absolutely no place in archery season. For all but the severely disabled. They just change the game too much

2013 Total 342,631 Gun 225,003

2014 Total 304,294 Gun 222,588

2022 Total 349,874 Gun 251,425

2013 Bow 87,628 CB 0

2014 Bow 54,815 CB 26,891

2022 Bow 38,017 CB 60,432

Read from it what you want but it's pretty apparent that the total number of harvest has stayed about the same, total number of gun harvest has stayed about the same, and the total number of archery harvests has stayed about the same. The biggest shifts are as compound hunter harvests drop, crossbow harvests go up. It's not rifle hunters stepping into archery via crossbow, it's compounder's. To me it's not surprising that a group of people who had been using the easiest possible weapon available... took advantage of the next easiest possible weapon. No clue if these numbers holds true out west as I don't think any other state took the trouble to keep records and publish data. It sounds like a completely different can of worms out there though.

"Read from it what you want but it's pretty apparent that the total number of harvest has stayed about the same, total number of gun harvest has stayed about the same, and the total number of archery harvests has stayed about the same."

"Crossbows are here to stay in PA archery season but that doesn't mean I have to like it or use one."

if crossbows arent your thing...dont use one. if they arent putting any more pressure on the resource than "real bows" what difference does it make?

"The addition of crossbows to archery is having the desired effect. Lowering the age class of deer. Triples the number of "archery" hunters out there with essentially 70 yard rifles. Combined with trail cameras more trophies get shot. More trophies get shot, average age class decreases. Why is this the goal you ask?

CWD is more apparent in older age class deer because they have more chances of getting it. It's almost like mercury in older fish. Where CWD is around, the older a deer is, the higher the likelihood it has CWD. So the state wants to reduce average age to reduce number of deer that have CWD. It's not ACTUALLY about what constitutes archery and what doesn't. Or so the theory goes anyways..."

if this is the case...isnt this proper deer management? isnt this what is best for the resource long term? or are we just worried that some yahoo with a crossbow might whack a shooter buck before one of us purists get a crack at him.

How do you sync that program with your beliefs today regarding crossbows and the benefits to kids? $1,500 dollar crossbow gear required just to get started.

The “disabled only” entry path of crossbows used by manufacturers and state agencies has worked almost every time. Pulling on our heartstrings for disabled with the ultimate goal of “full inclusion”. It’s all ways about the money and in this case the money for manufacturers and state agencies. If crossbows were limited to gun seasons they would sell 7 per year. I get it.

There is now a nationwide record book for crossbows named “Bolt & Quarel”. This eliminates any calls for inclusion in P&Y Record book. Great solution to a problem that didn’t exist.

Here's the link I was looking at. Graphs make the trends easy to see. It's harvested data though, and not actual number of hunters. Gun and Total numbers are pretty much a flat line, Bow is declining, while Crossbow is inclining. https://apps.dnr.wi.gov/deermetrics/DeerStats.aspx

michigan reached its peak in the late 90s when bow hunters harvested more than 150000 deer...in 2022 it was about 95000...in 2023 it looks like it will be even less.

crossbows became legal in michigan for all hunters in 2009. the numbers just dont match the hype.

Ruined is a strong word for it, but depending on how much or how little public land you have to work with….

But the people who don’t understand the differences between states where the wildlife biologists are desperate to reduce their deer herds and states where they are contemplating ever more drastic measures to keep the hunting pressure under control… you guys need to get out more.

The good news is that states which are already rationing tags are not really likely to go looking for ways to make those tags even harder to come by, though I don’t know what they’re thinking In Wyoming…. Maybe they responding to the demands of wealthy, non-hunting property owners who feel that they’re being overrun by Elk?

come on...lets get real. like them or hate them...crossbows are not guns. they meet the definition of a bow. they do not meet the definition of a gun.

bow: a weapon that is used to propel an arrow and that is made of a strip of flexible material (such as wood) with a cord connecting the two ends and holding the strip bent

gun: a weapon incorporating a metal tube from which bullets, shells, or other missiles are propelled by explosive force, typically making a characteristic loud, sharp noise.

Fast forward to today and tags for Nonresidents are limited to 3000 a year. NGPC has came out and said that when harvest is down they will reduce tags. When harvest is up they will increase tags. On its face that sounds like sound management practices. However how many archers loose out on obtaining a tag because a crossbow user bought a tag.

When it comes to public lands in Nebraska. It is ranked 48th for total public land acres. The only 2 states that are worse are Kansas at 49 (they also allow crossbows in the archery season and nonresident tags are limited) and Rhode Island at 50. Before tags were limited in Nebraska the amount of pressure the public’s lands seen skyrocketed.

. Back then I grew to love bow hunting simply because there wasn’t a lot of people doing it and it was easier to gain access to land.

If there comes a day and I can’t draw a bow I will pick up a crossbow.

I still think crossbows in the Midwest anyway should have been limited to those that can’t draw adequate weight to hunt with

“However how many archers loose out on obtaining a tag because a crossbow user bought a tag[?]”

“Before tags were limited in Nebraska the amount of pressure the public’s lands seen skyrocketed.”

“Back then I grew to love bow hunting simply because there wasn’t a lot of people doing it and it was easier to gain access to land.”

So now the Compound shooters are seeing the same problem that long-time single-string shooters have been talking about for 30 years, but when it’s Compound vs Crossbow, it’s somehow a whole other argument???

Separate item: “When it comes to public lands in Nebraska. It is ranked 48th for total public land acres. “

Lies, Damn Lies, And Statistics, dude….

True, the data I found say that NE is 97.2% private vs 93.8% in CT.

But NE is 77.8k square miles. CT is a hair over 5,000. NE has 1.9M people; CT has 3.6.

So that’s (round figures) 2100 sq mi of Public vs 311, so 7X the acres for a little over half as many people. And we haven’t even considered what % of the Public (OR Private) land is at all open to hunting of any kind…

So, Grand Scheme— Even if 3 times as many people are hunting (percentage-wise)… you’ve got some real blessings to count.

id be willing to bet the same is true for those that switched from compound to crossbow.

sure...you got people on youtube shooting 70 and 80 yards...and we all "know a guy" that claims to have shot one at 100 yards but you have that with comounders too. at the end of the day whether its a compound or crossbow its still a 40 yard and closer game...often much closer...for 95% of the hunters out there.

I didn’t call you a liar. But you did make a wildly inaccurate assertion. If you want to make a claim based on data, you have to make it in such a way that you can’t be blown out of the water so easily…..

that sounds like the opposite of sound management practices to me. seems to me when harvest is down they would increase tags...and when harvest is up, they would reduce tags.

What are the wounding rates on crossbows, compounds, longbows, recurves, rifles in Kansas. I had no idea that those statistics even existed How are those numbers collected? Do Kansas hunters have to fill out a form or call in post hunt

Show me one crossbow hunter who did 8 months of PT-rehab in order to be able to cock and pull the trigger on a crossbow, and I'll concede your point.

The act of drawing, anchoring, and releasing an accurate arrow from a bow when the animal is in range, vs. simply putting crosshairs on the animal, resting on shooting sticks, and squeezing a trigger. That is the difference. A crossbow is simply a short range rifle. Not "archery".

I know a fellow that's killed plenty of deer with a rifle.

He has never bowhunted, he has a pending court case & gun rights are suspended until the trial. He's been using an xbow & between poor yardage estimation & poor penatration on frontal body shots, he is struggling terribly, I've lent him a rangefinder & explained broadside to quartering away shots.

I believe he's given up on it altogether. Killed one of 4 he shot at. Couldn't find bolt or blood on 2 of the 4.

apparently the point i was trying to make went right over your head. i was referring to how people hunt, not what brought them to weapon they chose. thats why i underlined the portion i did.

"And I hunt the same exact way I always did.

i still maintain that "at the end of the day whether its a compound or crossbow its still a 40 yard and closer game...often much closer...for 95% of the hunters out there."

guys who insist on ethical shots do so regardless of the weapon in their hands. guys who take "hail mary" shots do the same...whether they have a traditional bow...a compound...a crossbow...or a rifle in their hand.

the fact that you did pt fo 8 months is great...but completely irrelevant to the point i was making.

You missed the point I was trying to make - that a crossbow is not archery, and doesnt require even a fraction of the effort to operate compared to a compound. "Ethics" and "capability" are entirely unrelated concepts. Crossbows are marketed as "100 yard" weapons. How many crossbow shooters with so-called "bad shoulders" are willing to put in the effort to get treatment, do PT or have surgery to recover and shoot a hand-drawn bow? They don't, because a crossbow is faster, easier, and supremely accurate.

The only thing a crossbow has in common with a bow, compared to a rifle, is that the crossbow projectile is made of carbon and steel instead of lead and copper. And the idea that scoped crossbows with 100 yard trajectory compensating reticles shooting a bolt 400 fps are 40 yard weapons is a reach.

I have no problem whatsoever with someone using a crossbow during firearms season. I just don't want them further crowding public land and competing with bowhunters for archery tags, and pretending it is "bowhunting".

no...you most certainly dont "get it." thats obvious.

that makes as much sense as saying you have no problem with the elderly and disabled using a .300 win mag during bow season.

what part of the difference between the way a firearm propels a bullet and the way a bow propels and arrow dont you get?

if a crossbow meets the definition of a "bow" when it comes to the elderly and the handicapped it meets the definition of a "bow"...period.

you cant have it both ways.

"The only thing a crossbow has in common with a bow, compared to a rifle, is that the crossbow projectile is made of carbon and steel instead of lead and copper."

...and that whole thing about bent limbs and a string propelling an arrow...and an explosion propelling a bullet....and the fact that one projectile is traveling at 300-400 fps and the other is traveling at 2500-3000 fps...and one kills by hemorrage and the other kills by shock. yeah...other that that theyre exactly the same. lol

by the way...modern compound bows are more than capable of killing deer at 100 yards...just like a crossbow.

Of course it wouldn't bother me if a disabled person used a crossbow or to be honest, a 300 win mag if truly disabled.

The problem is the "disabled" part was abused but ends up a moot point because the big impact is that it was/is just a stepping stone to full inclusion.

Crossbows don't usually equal more success, just easier access to what was bow season. They are very different weapons. Yes, there are people who can be effective at 100 yards with a compound. Guess what guys dedicated like that could accomplish with a crossbow? But, the capability of a crossbow isn't the issue since most users aren't approaching it that way. It is simply the ease of access to bow season that is damaging bowhunting. That's the similarity to a 300 win mag that matters.

no irony at all.

first of all...the two conversations are not related in any way. most peoples brains are capable of contemplating a variety of different topics concurrently.

second...ive never advocated for crossbows...im just not threatened by them. ive never hunted with one...and god willing i will never need to.

Stats on the cripple rate? Where are those recorded

Yea I know I kill stray dogs

Stay on topic

Just my brief experience was a gun hunter with no bow hunting experience, no close range yardage estimating skills, & thinking he could shoot deer in the shoulder with the string gun. # One shot in the shoulder no penatration, #2 killed, #s 3&4 no bolt or blood found. Then I believe he gave up.

Mapleman...... I share your thoughts for the most part. Exception would be I hunt private land so the xbow hasn't / doesn't affect my opportunities whatsoever.

In the late 90s i decided to stop gun hunting for deer. Didn’t bother me one bit that others gun hunted, early 2000 I went trad only, compound hunters didn't bother me one bit. I've always had a live & let live mentality about it. But again " private land" in an unlimited deer kill state. That last sentence makes a HUGE DIFFERENCE.

so are you saying its a hunter failure and not the fault of the weapon? if so i agree. .

it only stands to reason that if more people are using crossbows overall...there are going to be more deer wounded with crossbows. its a simple mathematic equation. for example 5% of 100k is a lot more than 5% of 50k.

more deer are wounded with rifles than bows every year...by far.

This was a rifle hunter with no 20,30, 40,50, etc yardage estimating skills trying to shoot deer in the shoulder, like with a rifle. I believe it was an older Barnet xbow like 340fps.

I believe a compounder can pick up a crossbow and be proficient in a very short amount of time, a complete newbie is going to take much less time to learn the crossbow than the compound, and most rifle hunters are completely disappointed after buying a crossbow and hunting 2 seasons with it (I've known this to happen many times. Their crossbow ends up on craigslist... much like their treadmill.).

not sure what you mean by "more deadly" as dead is dead...but i think youre making my point. "a competent successful vertical bow hunter" is going to stay within his capabilities...no matter what weapon he is using.

thats why i said earlier that 95% of the people who switched from compound to crossbow arent flinging arrows at deer at 100 yards. They are hunting the same way they did...and at the same ranges...they did with a compound.

the notion that if you put a crossbow in a competent...ethical...bowhunters hands hes all of a sudden going to become a different kind of hunter is foolish.

there are incompetent idiots carrying all kinds of bows...traditional...compound...and crossbow. thats just the reality of the situation.

License year 2008-2009 (~225,000 archery licenses) archery buck kill: 31,550 or 25% of total harvest. Approximately 14% of bowhunters filled their buck tag.

License year 2009-2010 (277,600 archery licenses) archery buck kill: 33,400 or 31% of total buck kill. Approximately 12% of bowhunters filled their buck tag.

License year 2022-2023 (336,000 archery licenses) archery buck kill: 75,700 or 46% of total buck kill. Approximately 23% of bowhunters filled their buck tag.

Ya, xbows are exactly like compounds.

To me the biggest negative of the thing is for it to be accurate a rest of some kind is almost mandatory. Shooting ( offhand ) I don't think he could even hit a pie plate at 50 yards. Maybe 20-30 offhand but beyond that. Nope. They are cumbersome contraptions........

But on the same thought, I know very few that can hit a pie plate consistently with a rifle offhand either.

Ya, xbows are exactly like compounds"

raw numbers might not tell the whole story. they are meaningless unless and until you apply them to what the game department wants to accomplish.

according to the attached link...more deer were killed in pa in 2000 than in 2022 (504k vs 435k). point being...if the hunters still arent killing as many deer as the game managers want killed...the weapon breakdown isnt that important.

Instead of trying to be the smartest guy in the room, howzabout listening to those of us that actually LIVE and HUNT in PA. In 2002 point restrictions were implemented. The total buck kill dropped significantly. From roughly ~170K to a little over ~100K. It has been steadly increasing and the archery harvest is now just a few percentage points lower than the buck kill. Also, total number of hunters has dropped from roughly 1.1 million to ~840,000. Number of reasons for that.

Herd management was not why xbows were implemented. $$'s were. As early as 2006, UBP was told by members of the PGC board & PA state legislature that xbows were a done. THAT was after extensive lobbying from the xbow industry. PA has(had) the largest (market) number of archery hunters. You can continue your side step, bravo sierra, whatever you want to call it, if xbows were the same as compounds we would have seen proportional increase in the buck harvest. That was not the case.

Mapleman, one buck per license year, regardless of weapon. Two (or more depending on WMU) doe. Not weapon dependent.

I'll turn this back over to the smartest guy on the Bowsite.

Facts are they were pushed by gun manufacturers for $$$

A friend of mine just spent 5k. That's not a misprint. 5k on a custom smokeless muzzeloader, it shoots a 300 grain pitman bullet @ 2900fps Has a 4x20x56 nightforce with custom calibrated turret to 500 yards.

Wonder how the flintlock boys feel about that.

Ever since in-lines came on the scene, PA flintlockers (myself included) have fought to keep our late season (2-1/2 weeks starting 12/26) in-line free. Aside from the special regs areas, we've been successful. And yeah we here the whining that their scoped (shooting MOA) single shot rifles are the same as a flintlock cuz, well, it loads from the front.

it would only truly be "proportional" if successful crossbow hunters only came from the successful compound hunter ranks. thats not the case. many first time bowhunters are choosing to start with crossbows. some will cross over and go back and forth...even within the same season. same is true for compound and traditional bows. its never as easy as the figures on a page tend to suggest.

lets assume you are right and crossbows are so much easier to be successful with than compounds. and even with them being legal...not enough deer are being taken in many areas. had they not become legal...do you think that would have helped or hurt management goals?

youre right, i dont hunt in pa but i have bow hunted in mi for close to 50 years and our deer hunting numbers as well as our bowhunting heritage...passions...challenges...and regulations are about as close as they are going to get. pa isnt that unique.

its not about being the smartest guy in the room...its about being willing to question conventional wisdom...even our own.

being a traditional only bowhunter...10-15 years ago i despised even the thought of crossbows being allowed in archery season...for all the reasons people are stating now. now that they are here...i dont see where they affect my bowhunting experience in any way.

I don’t need to assume anything. The data is right there. While we had what, a 30-40% increase in bowhunters, we’ve doubled the buck harvest in the same time period. Prior to 2009 the archery buck kill was in the low to mid 30,000 range. It’s doubled.

Whatever dude, you still wanna come across as the smartest guy in the room. Carry on.

I didn't bite immediately but eventually when Tony knight came out with the 45 cal disc elete I placed my order & ended up with serial #43. That purchase was perhaps the best $$$ I've ever spent on a gun. I couldn't begin to guess how many lbs of venison that gun has put in my freezer.

I understand how the patch & ball guys feel. But I do agree the xbow is a different situation.

The xbow is a shoulder mounted, TRIPOD SECURED weapon. Ya, it shoots a broadhead tipped arrow. THAT'S where any similarities end.

You have zero intention of being curious. Zero. Hence your desire to have the last word evidenced by the trans-swimmer thread. So here ya go. Prove me wrong. Got a Grant riding I'm right.

is the increase in buck harvest sustainable? are your buck numbers plummeting with the increase of bow hunters?

talk about "side step bravo sierra..."

can you show me where ive ever said "theres no difference between xbows and compounds?"

its statements like this that make everything you say suspect. either you arent capable of comprehending what someone actually says...or you have no problem lying in order to make a point. take your pick...

I do comprehend. Quite well thank you. And I have zero need to lie to prove a point. None. Especially to a full blown narcissist that has some deep rooted need to bloviate and convince everyone he’s da big brain.

You’re not curious. At all. Just argumentative. As most threads show. Now if you’ll excuse me, this automation engineer needs to sort thru some hi speed vision data. If I need help, at least I know where to seek help.

I was gonna say… LOL

That has certainly been my impression at the ranges here, but at least they do permit you to shoot off-hand. I’ve been to a few ranges which would not allow off-hand shooting at all.

“BTW, if I can ever get to shoot that hawkens accurate again, I sure will.”

Try a ghost ring, and (perish the thought!!) you might need a fiber-optic front…. I have seen tall, buckhorn sights reshaped as ghost rings…

But let’s not oversimplify… There are “muzzleloaders” which use what is essentially a .410 blank shotshell and only the (saboted) bullet loads from the front. There are smokeless “muzzleloaders” which are the ballistic equivalent of bottle-necked centerfire cartridges. And scopes over 1X are a game-changer, conferring literally superhuman vision…. The CO MLA has fought hard to preserve the original intention of the season since there was fiery debate over whether TC “Hawken” rifles were sufficiently period-correct to be authorized for use…. As things stand, with loose powder and a full-bore projectile, an inline is still hideous… but it’s essentially the functional/ballistic equivalent of a period-correct or even an original conical-shooting caplock from the end of the ML era….

You can’t say that about a scoped “bow” which is so heavy that people use force- multiplying pulley systems or hand-cranked (or even electric) winches to draw the damn things….

Sure, they’re the same.

then why do you (and others) accuse people of saying things they never said? such as...

"theres no difference between xbows and compounds?""

or why do you continue to side step legitimate questions" such as...

"is the increase in buck harvest...that you suggest is due to crossbows... sustainable?"

"are your buck numbers plummeting with the increase of crossbow hunters?"

can you think of any other weapons that utilize this technology in order to draw and hold them at full draw? :)

The eastern shore is comprised of 2 counties,the southern county is shotgun/muzzeloader only, no rifle for deer ???????? Never understood this but that's the law.

My old .45 cal knight is all I need, but know of several folks that have the HOT ROD smokeless jobs.

Not that you’ll find in my house, no…..

If you’re expecting me to leap to the defense of compounds, you’re even more clueless than I thought….. but there’s a difference between let-off and force multiplication. And if you want to argue that, you’ll have to do do having conceded that the holding weight of a #40, 85% let-off compound is literally INFINITELY higher than that of a crossbow.

And last time I checked, compounds hitting in excess of #200 were kinda hard to come by. Interesting that most of the crossbows in my Lancaster catalog don’t even LIST a draw weight…. Kinda makes a guy wonder what they’re hiding from whom…

for the most part...same is true here in michigan. despite added seasons...added weapons...expanded ages...expanded bag limit...etc....over all deer harvest has remained about the same over the last couple decades...if anything it has has fallen. overall hunter numbers have fallen in virtually every category.

as i said before...the raw numbers dont show everything (they tend to show the "what" but not the "why")...but they do show that many of the original fears of crossbow inclusion have not come to pass.

I've come to understand that in other regions with draw areas & limited tags. The xbow has reduced the opportunities for vertical bow hunters.

Myself personally am not affected,,,,,but can most definitely understand how those that are, feel about the xbow. The numbers don't always tell the full story......

"Do not limit yourselves to the eastern whitetail mentality. There is a much greater picture than the diseased, overpopulated whitetail herd found in much of the east. Much greater."

Diseased? Other than some EHD outbreaks from time to time, i believe far less diseased deer in the East, as there is little to no CWD as seen in the West. What disease are you referring to?

From what I see, the deer in NJ are extremely healthy both sexes, and there are good genetics here to grow record size bucks with ease. What we lack is hunter restraint on young bucks and let them get some age on them.... That problem exists in most eastern states. (if one of your stated goals is to take a mature animal with bow).

For several reasons, I hope scoped crossbows do not expand in the west.

It would be better for bowhunting and bow hunters if it were limited to bows but that's no longer the case. I do hope that folks have some line in weapon technology that they think is too far.

For me and my personal approach, that line is well behind modern compounds. The stuff that's hard about bowhunting is the key to the stuff that makes bow hunting and bow seasons great. Be careful when constantly chipping away at the foundation of your house.

As far as crossbows being "archery" call it whatever you want it's all about semantics, I use mine during the crossbow season and that's what I call it, a crossbow being used during crossbow season, again, there was no full inclusion in Wisconsin. Every time I register a deer I'm asked whether I harvested it with a gun, a bow, or a crossbow. Clearly separate.

In regards to maple's question, I switched from a recurve to a compound many years ago because it was more accurate and I had less of a chance of wounding deer. Also, I have other things in my life that "make me a man" other than hoping I kill a deer without wounding too many with an archaic tool just to prove some stupid point at the expense of a suffering animal. I 100% agree with the above post where someone said 80% of the guys flinging arrows at deer with a recurve or longbow are not proficient enough to be doing it, I've seen the same thing more times than I care to admit.

IMO, there’s a pretty obvious place to draw the line when it comes to which weapons belong in bow season. Too bad I couldn’t be dictator - just for a day :)

I'm ashamed to admit this but I didn't bow hunt a single day this season,,,several reasons, but mostly I bought a new to me old Harley Davidson and was having such a blast putting around on it that I just didn't hunt during Oct. Still had plenty of venison in the freezer was another.

My point,,,I have not even drawn my 50lb Oneida Phoenix since Oct of 2022. "Sights, peep, release....and I guarantee you that I could go out there right now and put an arrow in the kill of the rubber deer at 20 yards first shot """GUARANTEED """

I also have 3 recurves, I've killed plenty of deer with all three, Oct of 2022 was also the last time I've drawn either of those as well. All three are 50 @ 28 or less & I draw 26 so mid 40lb or less at my draw.

I seriously doubt that after 14 months of not shooting a trad bow that I could even get back to anchor right now......and it would take me an honest 3 months to be busting nocks at 30 yards.

I 100% understand in regions with limited draw opportunities how a vertical bow hunter feels about an xbow hunter diminishing their chances to hunt.

Now all that said. And like it or not. Jmo.....the differences between an xbow & compound "especially" an 80% letoff compound just aren't that much. """ compared""" to the differences between a trad bow & a compound.

There, I said it .......

No, you switched because YOU were more accurate WITH the compound, and rather than accepting your own limitations with the recurve, you found a way around them.

It’s not a Bow Thing; it’s a User Thing. And by and large it’s exactly the same proposition when a Compound shooter picks up a Crossbow for reasons other than significant physical limitations.