Mathews Inc.
Don H on xbows
Equipment
Contributors to this thread:
Jack Harris 07-Nov-23
Bowbender 07-Nov-23
lamb 07-Nov-23
Lee 07-Nov-23
RonP 07-Nov-23
deerhunter72 07-Nov-23
Groundhunter 07-Nov-23
lame crowndip 07-Nov-23
wyobullshooter 07-Nov-23
TonyBear 07-Nov-23
drycreek 07-Nov-23
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Blood 07-Nov-23
cnelk 07-Nov-23
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From: Jack Harris
07-Nov-23

Jack Harris's Link
This won't be too controversial. Don Higgins nailed it... LMAO "boys playing in girls sports".....

From: Bowbender
07-Nov-23
Saw that yesterday. LMAO.

From: lamb
07-Nov-23
spot on!!!!!!

From: Lee
07-Nov-23
Too funny! Was reading it on the hunting beast forum yesterday

From: RonP
07-Nov-23
some of us think the same about compound bows.

From: deerhunter72
07-Nov-23
This will be an unpopular opinion, but I found that distasteful and unfortunate. I don’t know Don, but I’ve watched a lot of his videos and seminars and really had a lot of respect for him. He used to be active on the Illinois forum back when it still had a pulse. Don sure can have his opinion but I don’t like hunters publicly making fun of each other. Doesn’t do any of us any favors. He knows what he says has a lot of reach. I’d be curious to know if he manages any ground for people who hunt with crossbows. Maybe he refuses, or maybe he cashes the check and mocks them behind their back. I know one thing, if I was wealthy enough to consider hiring a land manager I wouldn’t hire him after hearing that. If he gets any pushback on that he deserves it. Just my 2 cents.

From: Groundhunter
07-Nov-23
Gee I wonder what Stann Potts, ??

07-Nov-23
I like his (Don) explanations. If you really want to know the why of full inclusion, follow the money.

07-Nov-23
Too funny. Pretty much sums up the way I feel about the subject, and I’d say his analogy is spot on too!

From: TonyBear
07-Nov-23
..".could give a damn what another hunts with as long as it's legal." Personally I am getting pretty damn tired of that statement.

Lobbyists push for a rule, legal changes that don't make any sense all the time. No public discourse or debate, especially if snuck in an omnibus bill.

Next spring, I should be asking for netting, spearing, traps, seins, harpoons, snagging on my favorite lake or stream for gamefish to be placed in an omnibus bill making it legal. No public discourse, no debate, just active lobbying with a state rep who is clueless.

Just think of the extra lisc. revenue, inclusivity and diversity it will address, recruit new anglers too! The manufacturers can make a lot more money selling all the new equipment as well.

From: drycreek
07-Nov-23
Everyone looks down their nose at someone and none of it makes any sense to me.

From: RK
07-Nov-23

From: Bou’bound
07-Nov-23
it was unnecessary and beneath who he is, but we all do that from time to time so no biggie.

From: RK
07-Nov-23

From: Michael
07-Nov-23
Hahaha I love it!

From: Blood
07-Nov-23
Cross bows…. I have no words for those that use them when they are able bodied to draw a bow.

From: cnelk
07-Nov-23
My next weapon purchase will be a crossbow

07-Nov-23
It’s certainly not a bow. But, it certainly introduces hunter’s to bow hunting much earlier then a vertical bow. It also allows my 70 year old dad, that is literally wore out from a lifetime of hard physical labor, enjoy the woods. Versus telling stories of how he used to bow hunt but can’t anymore because his shoulders are too shot to pull his longbow or compound anymore.

I don’t hunt for anyone but me. And, I don’t worry about what others want to hunt with. But, the crossbow is going to eliminate the vertical bow at the rate we are going. And, that’s the danger of it. Not its effect on populations.

Make a separate season. Let it run concurrent with bow season if it’s determined to be needed. But, call it some kind of hunting besides bow hunting.

From: RK
07-Nov-23

From: Murph
07-Nov-23
Couldn’t agree with him more, it’s in a class by itself 6x scopes so on it definetly is not archery and takes no skill to master it’s a monkey behind a trigger..

From: SteveBNY
07-Nov-23
: Blood07 Compounds…. I have no words for those that use them when they are able bodied to draw a Recurve/lb.

Fixed it for you.

From: Blood
07-Nov-23
I’m using the same back, shoulder, neck, bicep, forearm muscles for a recurve or compound. I’m using my index finger muscle on a cross bow. There’s no fixing.

From: Jaquomo
07-Nov-23
"I have no words for those that use them when they are able bodied to draw a Recurve/lb."

There is a HUGE difference between being able to draw and shoot a trad bow vs. bring proficient enough with it to ethically hunt big game.

IMO, from shooting and hunting with trad bows for over 50 years, and shooting with a hell of a lot of trad shooters at big and small shoots, probably 80% of trad shooters have no business flinging an arrow at an animal. Maybe even more than that.

07-Nov-23
Not disagreeing with your observations, Lou — those are what they are, based on what you saw at the time, and I wasn’t there.

BUT….

It’s not entirely fair to judge a bowhunter’s skills or ethics based on his performance at a 3D shoot, where he is taking his shots from whatever distance the course-setters have decided is appropriate for sifting the wheat from the chaff and declaring a Winner. Recalling that those stakes are specifically set to make the best shots miss.

And FWIW, the fact that “most” single-string shooters are not performing up to your expectations is not a good and sufficient reason to lower the barrier to entry into the sport for ygem or anyone else. JMO, the good thing about Enlightened Self-Interest is that (just a hunch) if the compound had never been invented, an overwhelming majority of the people who currently hunt Archery seasons would be hunting Firearms, where they might stand a reasonable chance of filling a tag from time to time…

The main reason I take issue with the point raised in the video is that it presupposes that Hunters COMPETE with other Hunters, and THAT is a straight-up Perversion of what (IMHO) Hunting should ever be About.

On the Hunt, we compete against our quarry’s natural defenses; we compete against ourselves to simply Get Better At Hunting. But that’s as far as it should ever go and clearly, the sense of competition goes MUCH further.

Yeah, my sensibilities on the topic were thoroughly warped at an early age by reading A Sand County Almanac when I was probably 12 or 13, but I heard the echos just the other night reading A Thousand Campfires, which is coming up on 40 years old. So maybe I’m an anachronism. I’m FINE with that.

Your own experience with a recurve/longbow is ample evidence that these simpler tools are entirely adequate, and that any shortcomings lie firmly in the hands of the operators.

And FTR…. I have no issue with the use of crossbows by anyone with a physical limitation OTHER THAN physical immaturity. If people want to hunt bow-only areas during firearms seasons, what better solution could there be? But Archery Seasons almost universally confer numerous advantages over firearms seasons BECAUSE of the limitations imposed by the “lesser” weapon. I don’t know that the compound merits the same level of offset that a single-string bow does (and am strongly inclined to say that it does NOT), but the crossbow clearly obliterates that Line.

Earlier someone said “I’m using the same back, shoulder, neck, bicep, forearm muscles for a recurve or compound.”

You might use “the same muscles”, friend, but you sure as hell are NOT doing the same work. And what you ARE doing (with your bow which can be “held” at full draw by resting it on your knee) is HELLA closer to what a crossbow shooter does than to what a stickbow shooter must do.

From: TreeWalker
07-Nov-23
What a load of crap to be Holier than thou when slinging crap on anyone using an advantage you don’t. Wounded animals are correlated to the technology you use or don’t.

Here, let me make it easy. You are wussies if do not turn your own cedar shafts from a tree you planted decades prior then using fletching from birds you harvested and stone arrowheads you chipped. Now, the yew long bow needs a string you made. If you draw blood and do not retrieve that deer before any meat spoils then are forever demoted to the other side of the wussie line. No binoculars. No rangefinders. No GOS. No game cameras. No ATVs. Only clothes you made from animal skins or wool you wove. You process the game meat and the internal organs. How many of you make the cut?

From: JakeBrake
08-Nov-23
That guy could not be more spot on

From: Glunt@work
08-Nov-23
I think crossbows are sorta cool along with most weapons from spears to F-22 Raptors.

Including them in bow season is the number one enemy of bowhunting. Nothing else comes close to reducing the amount of bowhunters.

Inclusion may be a positive for selling tags or increasing harvest numbers and that may be worth it depending on perspective, but its not good for the future of bowhunting.

From: TonyBear
08-Nov-23
OK since I started it, for anyone who doesn't get the attempt at satire or serious dialogue my intention was to point out the serious and significant fault in the legislative process.

What rules are not susceptible to being changed by a huge omnibus bill that nobody reads? What committees, biology professionals, wildlife managers, trade groups, non-profits; the general public MUST be involved before a rule change is made?

Timing limits? Last few minutes of a meeting 2:55 AM or during normal, reasonable business hours? Location of public meetings? Spread out or always at the capitol that has limited access or parking, in high crime areas? Rule changes temporary or basically forever?

These are the kinds of issues to be considered otherwise hunting and fishing, and likely many other facets of our life can be changed by politicians, lobbyists or others who don't care or have nefarious intentions. The antis take advantage of these flaws all the time. They actively lobby 24/7, 365. Don't skip out during hunting season.

When I attended public forums, committee meetings, have personal discussions with wildlife managers, DNR representative, local enforcement the comeback is often: "..that rule can only be changed by the legislative process." Uh Huh, well what happens if that process is seriously flawed?

Oh, in case anyone is interested I have also dabbled in making my own bow, arrows, broadheads, clothing, stands; tied flies made decoys and lures, and yes walked or took a bicycle to a hunting or fishing area. Not everyone can or should do this, but cripes we always should have the opportunity to discuss it. Carry on.

From: Pat Lefemine
08-Nov-23
His main point is correct: They changed the rules of the game and now the game has changed. Can anyone honestly disagree with that?

From: Venom16730
08-Nov-23
Years ago I did a photo shoot for Lacrosse boots and I said' be no guns or Guns in any of the photos. We all have and opinion , I think he is pretty spot on. I have softened a little over the years , shoot what u want , kill what u want, bait if you want, if its legal and you're having fun all that matters.

08-Nov-23
"His main point is correct: They changed the rules of the game and now the game has changed."

the exact same thing can be...and was...said about the advent of the compound bow.

From: SteveBNY
08-Nov-23
Blood - I can take a total rookie archer, set them up with a proper fitted compound in the 40 to 50LB range, and have them hunting proficient to 20 yards in an afternoon. To achieve the same skill level for an average entry trad shooter can easily be a year or more with a hunting weight bow. The ONLY reason one uses a compound instead of a recurve/longbow, is because it is easier - way easier learning curve to be hunting proficient, remain proficient and greatly increase effective range. I am 110% good with this, support it, and have helped bring dozens into the woods hunting with compounds. What I find hysterical and hypocritical are those who want their level of easier to be the bar or everyone. Easier for me but not for thee.

From: Catscratch
08-Nov-23
A dude swimming in a pool full of girls is no big deal until they get out a starters pistol and a clock. Comparing it to hunting simply implies that hunting is a competition, otherwise you're just a guy in the pool.

The skill gap between a compound and a crossbow is very small compared to the gap between them and traditional. If one considers a crossbow cheating ("cheating" another competition implication) over a compound then where does baiting fit in? I think a pile of corn lessens the skill of the hunt way more than a crossbow.

08-Nov-23
Most of today's traditional shooters are not serious enough to become proficient for hunting purposes. The traditionalists of today do not look at their bow as a serious hunting tool. Many are old hippie types lost in the past who flail away at novelty shoots.

As others have stated, only about 20 % or so are serious and good enough to be hunting with traditional equipment. Most are just novelty types.

From: Live2Hunt
08-Nov-23
Did the compound change the game, sure did. Did it kill more deer, sure did. Do you operate it like a bow, sure do. Do you operate an xgun like a bow, sure don't. Is it a bow as in archery bow hunting, nope, not close. So, many believe or use the excuse that there is no difference between a compound and an xgun. If so, why do the full inclusion? Why don't these wanabe bowhunters use a bow instead of a gun then? Just stupid to me when they try to say things like this. I use a recurve, but still view the compound as archery because of the operation. If you can get any vertical bow to full draw on the animal, your chances are 60+% increased in the kill. That movement to draw the bow is a critical point in bowhunting. Not the case with an xgun, it is more like using, well a gun, right?

From: JTreeman
08-Nov-23
I admittedly did not listen to the clip, and I really have no clue who Don H is. But it certainly seems like a fair analogy to me…

—Jim

From: pav
08-Nov-23
Love it...You go Don!

From: Lee
08-Nov-23
It’s funny, when I was a kid I started on a recurve and got pretty dang good with it. My dad told me once I got proficient with it he’d get me a compound, lol!

You still have to draw a bow, compound or stick bow. Not so with a crossbow. That’s what really separates them in my mind. It takes experience on when and when not to draw a bow. Totally eliminated with a crossbow.

08-Nov-23
You look through the scope and pull the trigger. Does that sound like bow and arrow hunting to you ?

From: Pat Lefemine
08-Nov-23
Show me a compound that is cocked and ready to shoot, has a scope, and is mounted to a tripod. Until then the argument that there’s little difference between he two implements is delusional.

08-Nov-23
Pat…exactly!

From: Supernaut
08-Nov-23
I help my neighbor butcher deer at his shop in the evening about 95% of the deer that come in are killed by crossbows. The people using these crossbows are overwhelmingly able bodied adults.

The inclusion of crossbows for anyone in PA's archery season has made everyone a "bow" hunter. It is what it is and that train has left the station so we are stuck with it here in PA. That doesn't mean that I have to agree with or like any of it, I don't.

If someone other than a legit, medically disabled person can't pull back a vertical bow for whatever the reason then they should not archery hunt. Kids can either wait to archery hunt until they can pull back a bow or they can just gun hunt and I feel the same about seniors. Those are unpopular opinions but they are my opinions and they don't really mean shit to anyone but me.

I will continue to shoot my recurve everyday, hunt with it and kill deer. I will try not to get pissed about things I can't control like the usage of crossbows for everyone in PA's archery season. Life is too short.

08-Nov-23
I agree with Pat.

From: Catscratch
08-Nov-23
"If someone other than a legit, medically disabled person can't pull back a vertical bow for whatever the reason then they should not archery hunt. Kids can either wait to archery hunt until they can pull back a bow or they can just gun hunt and I feel the same about seniors. Those are unpopular opinions but they are my opinions and they don't really mean shit to anyone but me."

Man, you nailed my thoughts exactly! I've said it before and caught backlash for it but that's how I feel too.

From: Brotsky
08-Nov-23
Crossbow hunters might not be the lowest form of scum and villainy but I bet it's a gateway.

08-Nov-23
Spot on Pat.

From: HDE
08-Nov-23
"Everyone looks down their nose at someone and none of it makes any sense to me."

It does to me. It's called petty arrogance.

From: LBshooter
08-Nov-23
Don says that they want to change the rules, xbow users can't compete or win, unless they have a xbow. What an ass!! That same attitude can and does fit the compound/compgun crowd, if you want and believe his statement. The compgun crowd can't win if they use a recurve or longbow, so they need a bow that allows them to draw before the animal is close, hold 80% of that weight and use sights along with a trigger release in order to win.

Pat said "show me a compound that is cocked and ready to shoot with a scope ", well I just did. They make magnified scopes for compguns, you use a trigger release and you cock it and hold the 20 lbs until the deer is in shooting distance. What do you think the trophy books would be filled with if recurves and longbows were the only bows allowed during archery season? The size of a "trophy" has bastardized hunting, it's all about the egos of hunters and how great they are killing a big horn/antlered animal, it somehow makes them better. Pick up a recurve or longbow and hunt strictly with that weapon for an entire season and then let's see the pics?

You can use whatever weapon you want as long as it's legal, and for guys who use compounds that are built to make bow hunting easier make fun or criticizing others for the weapon they choose is a joke!!! For all the trophy guys who have shot nothing but a compound, buy a recurve or longbow and practice for next season and see what happens,I'd be willing to bet not one of you will.

It's the DNR that has allowed xbows to shrink the herds so blame them, it's that simple. The nerve of you compound guys bitching about xbow , please.

From: JTreeman
08-Nov-23
Speaking of petty arrogance…

From: Jethro
08-Nov-23
I don't know Don H, never shot a crossbow, think girls sports should be limited to those born with a vagina, and still thought the analogy was stupid.

From: Bowbender
08-Nov-23
GF,

" And what you ARE doing (with your bow which can be “held” at full draw by resting it on your knee) is HELLA closer to what a crossbow shooter does than to what a stickbow shooter must do."

I know, right!!! I was remembering all times I nestled the stock of my compound against my shoulder, the forearm resting on a tripod or secured to another rock solid mount, fingers wrapped around the pistol grip, peering thru the 6X scope with lighted reticle, range pre-set by the bluetooth range finder, snicking the safety off, squeezing the trigger and collecting the everybody can be a bowhunter participation trophy.

LB,

Been bowhunting PA for forty years. Never saw a draw lok, or scope on a compound. Or mounted to a tripod, like a crew served weapon. And I have yet to see anyone hold their compound at full draw with their knee.

From: Cornpone
08-Nov-23
What I've always advocated is stagger the opening of the seasons by a week starting with trad equipment, ending with guns. Now the caveat...whatever weapon chosen has to be used for the entire remainder of the season!

From: x-man
08-Nov-23
Well said LB

From: LBshooter
08-Nov-23
Bowbender, again I don't care what you use as long as it's legal. However, shooting a compgun is certainly closer to shooting a xbow than shooting a recurve or longbow. Compounds make shooting a "bow" easier , fact. If you think a site on a compgun isn't comparable to a scope then I'm sorry you can't see it. Put the pin on the target pull the trigger release, put the reticle on the target and pull the trigger. It's funny how hard compgun guys try and argue that compounds aren't an advantage like a xbow lol.

From: Catscratch
08-Nov-23

Catscratch's embedded Photo
I have absolutely no clue where this image came from or who it is. I tried to post a meme from my phone and this showed up instead. Not even an image I have in storage.
Catscratch's embedded Photo
I have absolutely no clue where this image came from or who it is. I tried to post a meme from my phone and this showed up instead. Not even an image I have in storage.

From: Catscratch
08-Nov-23

Catscratch's embedded Photo
Catscratch's embedded Photo

From: Live2Hunt
08-Nov-23
Still have to draw, hold, make a good release with a compound/tradbow. Do you with an xgun? LOL.

From: Mapleman
08-Nov-23
30 Cellular game cameras $3,000 Compound bow $2,000 E bike $2,500 Pay someone to scout, set up enclosed blinds, sit over corn $8,000 Crossbows are too easy... Priceless

From: Bowbender
08-Nov-23
"Bowbender, again I don't care what you use as long as it's legal. However, shooting a compgun is certainly closer to shooting a xbow than shooting a recurve or longbow."

I listed all the differences. You're unwilling to see them. And I know quite a few recurcve shooters that use a sight, clicker, ...

Again for the galatcically obtuse: A xbow, is a stock equipped, shoulder mounted, tripod secured weapon. A compound is not. BTW, the month(s) long seasons we enjoy. Thank us compgunners. We secured it thru the late 70's, 80's and 90's. Ya'll were to busy looking for your arrows to form a homogenous group to accomplish anything. Now that should really get the ball rolling...

From: Grey Ghost
08-Nov-23
Crossbows, compounds, baiting, game cameras, range finders, satellite GPS devices, using cell phones to guide a hunter to game, etc, etc....its all the same to me. Hunting is constantly evolving, or devolving, depending on your point of view. Draw the line where you feel comfortable and go hunting. But don't pretend that one advantage is more egregious than another.

And, yes, I've been outspoken about my dislike for baiting in the past. But , as I was sitting in my manufactured tree stand this morning, with my compound bow, range finder, and Swaro binos in hand, I realized how hypocritical it is to complain about baiting.

Matt

08-Nov-23
Simply put, for all the reasons mentioned on this thread, hunting in general has become less of a hunt, much less.

From: Glunt@work
08-Nov-23
I had never heard of Don before this thread. My only issue with his stance is he is assuming an individuals motivation for choosing a crossbow. For me, that has about zero to do with whether inclusion is a good or bad idea. Likewise, the motivation of a male wanting to compete against females isn't the reason for deciding its right or wrong to allow it.

I have been an archer/bowhunter since I was old enough to do it. Its awesome and I want to see it thrive. As Pat stated, inclusion is causing dramatic changes to bowhunting. Maybe not individually in a guys back 40 but overall.

I would have rather seen bow season continue to be limited to bows.

From: x-man
08-Nov-23
Well said Mapleman and MB

08-Nov-23
everything don h said about the crossbow mentality has been said about the compound mentality...the guided hunt mentality...the hunting over bait mentality... the trail cam mentality...the range finder mentality...etc.

From: HDE
08-Nov-23
"Speaking of petty arrogance…"

JTreeman - it means making a big deal out of what someone is doing that is automatically far superior than what someone else is doing. Kind of like that splinter and moat in the eye analogy...

From: HDE
08-Nov-23
LBshooter - unless a large amount of [females] are being shot by crossbows, then no, that is not the reason the "herd's" numbers are hurting.

From: pav
08-Nov-23
If you don't care about the future of bowhunting, I agree...it's not a big deal.

If you care about the future of bowhunting...it is a VERY big deal! Since the crossbow was legalized in Indiana (by politicians mind you), the majority of our archery shops have closed their doors, membership in the Indiana Bowhunter Association has dwindled substantially and it didn't take long for crossbow harvests to outnumber archery harvests...and it gets worse every year. Bowhunters in Indiana are now a minority in a season specifically created for bowhunting.

My grandson started out deer hunting with a crossbow because he could not pull a legal draw weight for bowhunting. Within a day, he was a better shot with that crossbow than I am after 40+ years of shooting a compound. He killed two bucks the past two years with the crossbow...perfect shots...both deer on the ground within 70 yards.

This year, he wanted to switch to the compound, so I bought him a new bow. He practiced all summer in his backyard and prior to season from a treestand. He would already be tagged out with the crossbow...but has not yet drawn blood with the compound. He's been picked off drawing his bow and missed his only shot to date...at 20 yards. We have one weekend left and I'm really hoping he gets another opportunity. He definitely has experienced the difference in difficulty between that crossbow and his compound. My biggest concern is that he will eventually ask to put down in compound in favor of the crossbow. Fortunately, that hasn't happened yet.

Anyone that actually believes shooting a compound is closer to shooting a crossbow than a recurve probably needs to see a doctor. The physical aspects between a recurve and compound are very similar...just like the physical aspects between shooting a crossbow and a rifle are very similar. Those are facts, not opinions.

To be clear, Don H was up front about his statement only applying to those physically capable of drawing a bow...but choosing the crossbow instead. He's right!!!!

From: Highlife
08-Nov-23

From: RD in WI
08-Nov-23
A lot of whataboutism occurring in this thread. The crossbow is too efficient a weapon and it should not be allowed in the archery season, unless the user is handicapped. People using the "it's legal argument" have very little understanding of history and how the concept of fair chase came into being. Let me give you some examples of legal practices - it is LEGAL for municipalities in California to charge residents for water that is unsafe to drink. In New York state, it was a LEGAL practice to drive deer into bodies of water, where hunters would shoot, club, or drown the deer. It took the hunting community to stop the practice. That would not have happened if everyone was claiming that they didn't care how others hunted.

From: Recurve Man
08-Nov-23
I blame it on the “ Everyone gets a trophy when you’re in a sport” crowd. My dad is s 75 and recovering from a severe heart attack and now can’t pull his recurve to hunt with. His love for hunting faced him with a decision to make. Shoot a cross bow or stay on the porch. It honestly took awhile for realization to set in and find out he’s probably not ever gonna be strong enough to shoot legal poundage recurve or compound again. He’s in bad enough shape I have to drop him off at stand from a 4 wheeler and get him settled in. So many memories of our old times when he got me settled in and let me hunt by myself. Tables and Father Time has changed many things I guess.

Fir the love of hunting I guess we’re fortunate fir the crossbow. It’s a double edge in the fact it has changed many things drastically.

I am in full agreement of the young buck’s bragging about shooting deer at 60-90 yds with crossbows. They’ll probably never have that feeling of having a monster to close to shoot them. I’ve been there done that. Plus I’ve killed them at a few feet. Those memories and todays memories of my dad still being able to go is what I cherish. Not the head of a monster whitetail on the wall.

Shane

08-Nov-23
I know it is more difficult, but I would rather be a bow hunter than use the scoped and cocked bolt machine. I have always preferred to hunt the harder way during archery seasons.

From: LBshooter
08-Nov-23
HDE, I hunt public in Illinois, and almost everyone I talk to is shooting a bow and killing does. The DNR is culling to try and control CWD , so they say, and shoot whatever shows up at the bait pile there is also talk that the insurance companies are paying for each deer killed to lessen the amount of auto collisions. Is it easier for the average joe to walk into the field with a xbow and kill a deer? Absolutely. Just. As it is easier for a guy to pick up a compound and start plugging bulleyes at 30 yards whatever is legal to use and pepole use it then it is what it is. But the smugness of compound guys to beat up on a guy who chooses to use a xbow is laughable.

I heard Indiana took away the use of xbows except for elderly and disabled due to the kill numbers skyrocketing, any truth to this?

From: Glunt@work
08-Nov-23
I have a 1000 yard rifle in the safe. I'm not snobby about weapons but bow season I hunt with trad gear. I can't imagine ever lobbying for more tech during bow season. It's self-defeating.

08-Nov-23
"My grandson started out deer hunting with a crossbow because he could not pull a legal draw weight for bowhunting. Within a day, he was a better shot with that crossbow than I am after 40+ years of shooting a compound. He killed two bucks the past two years with the crossbow...perfect shots...both deer on the ground within 70 yards.

This year, he wanted to switch to the compound, so I bought him a new bow."

see how that works?

maybe in a few more years hell want to try a recurve...and then maybe a selfbow. arent you just glad hes out there?

im old enough to remember when people were saying the compound was much too efficient and it would be the end of bowhunting. that was about 50 years ago and bowhunting is still going strong

08-Nov-23
Hunters have taken the hunt right out of the hunt.

From: smarba
08-Nov-23
Ricky, although I agree with you on a lot of things, I'd be the percentage of people who start into "archery" by using an Xbow, then decide to try out a compound or a recurve is so low as to be almost non-existent. The Xbow was and is an easy way for gun hunters to gain access to the more liberal tags and dates of bow season, and kill something more easily without having to move. Nothing more.

08-Nov-23
That is correct smarba.

From: Catscratch
08-Nov-23
Smarta, I had figured that would be the case when full inclusion came here but pretty much all the data I've looked at said it's not happening like that. Rifle tag sales have stayed virtually the same, and total archery tag sales have stayed the same. The shift has been compound users switching to crossbows. The percentages shifted up and down respectively exactly the same. Ie when compound numbers dropped 20% crossbow numbers increased 20%. It's pretty obvious who's making the switch. Further evidence is shown in the archery shops. If it were rifle hunters switching then the shops wouldn't be struggling for business. There is just less compound guys needed the shops plain and simple. We're doing it to ourselves no question about it. We went from traditional to wheels, fingers to releases, stalking to stands, stands to blinds, hunting to baiting, etc. As a group compounders traditionally jump on the biggest easy button available.

08-Nov-23
"Ricky, although I agree with you on a lot of things, I'd be the percentage of people who start into "archery" by using an Xbow, then decide to try out a compound or a recurve is so low as to be almost non-existent."

i think you might be surprised. know a number of crossbow hunters that have switched to compounds...including my son in law. i know dozens who started with a compound and have switched to recurves or longbows. i even know a few that hunt with all three depending on what they are hunting...what time of year it is...and where they are hunting. some people just get a kick out of trying anything new. i even know a kid that has taken deer with a crossbow his dad made in hs shop class.

regardless of what chicken little says...the bowhunting sky is not falling.

08-Nov-23
The sky is not falling. However in states where legal there are more scoped crossbow hunters than bowhunters. Bow hunting is on a National decline, scoped crossbow hunting is on the increase.

Take a look at what just happened in Minnesota, it took only three weeks (once legal) for the scope d crossbow kill to overcome the bow kill. Google the article if in doubt.

From: cnelk
08-Nov-23
How many guns do you ‘archery enthusiasts’ have at home?

I bet quite a few. Why don’t you only have bows and arrows?

08-Nov-23
"The sky is not falling. However in states where legal there are more scoped crossbow hunters than bowhunters. Bow hunting is on a National decline, scoped crossbow hunting is on the increase."

if we both agree the sky isnt falling...what does it really matter? is anyone telling us we must use a crossbow? we all still have the choice of what we want our challenge to be. i choose a longbow...my son in law chooses a compound (used to use a crossbow)...and my brother in law chooses a crossbow. we all get along just fine.

08-Nov-23
Reading the last three posts...Why have separate seasons, just have one season and use any weapon you choose. I would be fine with that, how about the rest of you ?

08-Nov-23
Of course it would work, season lengths and times would simply be adjusted to meet game managers objectives. Some animal seasons are already that way. Bear, turkey, cougar etc in many states operate in this fashion. One season, use any weapon.

From: APauls
08-Nov-23
Guys get so hung up on the analogy itself when it’s the attitude he’s really talking about. It’s the attitude of trying to make it the easiest way possible and fastest way to success.

Crossbow to compound is totally different than compound to trad bow. Heck half the trad bow guys out there use it so they have a built in excuse as to why they can’t kill anything ;)

08-Nov-23
“Wounded animals are correlated to the technology you use or don’t.”

Well, nope.

“Why have separate seasons, just have one season and use any weapon you choose. I would be fine with that, how about the rest of you ?”

I’m gonna guess that the “One-Percenters” who own or lease large amounts of land would be delighted by that…. and those who work hard on Public will tell you to go sit on a broadhead… Dull one. Probably barbed.

JMO, Hunting is a Wildlife Management tool; seasons and weapons restrictions are Hunter Management tools. The “One Big Season” option (pronounced “Oh, BS”) eliminates a whole raft of tools, so that’s a non-starter.

JMO, the impact of crossbow inclusion has varied from state to state, with the biggest effects where hunting was the worst to begin with. People who are generally pretty happy with the hunting experiences that they have aren’t probably changing their behavior as drastically as in states where archery seasons are 4 or 5 times longer and Shotgun tags (for ONE deer) are by lottery only while Archery tags (for 2 or more deer) are OTC.

Just a guess.

Not sure how the State here would deal with OBS when shotgun tags are rationed out for each unit so as to keep hunter density down to 1 gun for every 20 acres….

09-Nov-23
"Why have separate seasons, just have one season and use any weapon you choose. I would be fine with that, how about the rest of you ?"

are you saying youd be fine with a much shorter...much more crowded season...starting much later in the year?

09-Nov-23
We already have that with most species. It is called limited draws, quota seasons, reduced tags, waiting years between licenses, etc. Yes I am fine with that if it offsets advancements in technology. Some of you have a mentality clearly limited to eastern whitetail deer and are out of touch with the overall hunting picture. Time to leave your eastern box blinds and 20 acres and take a look around.

From: Catscratch
09-Nov-23
I wonder how many bowsiters had their start before crossbow inclusions? I'd bet it's a very high percentage.

To answer the 1 season any weapon question... hell no! I love archery season and think it should be longer than other seasons. I also think firearm seasons during the rut is a management mistake, especially in plains states where length of vision can be rather long.

09-Nov-23
Crossbows are not the problem, people using them are. Timex you seem stuck in your eastern whitetail vision. The potential effects of crossbows reach far beyond whitetails in the east, just as the compound bow did.

09-Nov-23
Catscratch I too agree the one season concept ( which unfortunately is where we may be headed with unlimited technology) should not be during the rut. I am just throwing the concept out there because with unlimited technology, youth gun seasons during archery etc etc, that is a potential scenario. I do not want one season, but I would be fine with it, and survive.

09-Nov-23
I also believe, with the explosion of scoped crossbow hunting particularly in the east, we may see more and more populated townships push to ban the use of guns and allow crossbows only. Call me stupid, but wait 20 years. Would this be a bad thing for game management and hunting. Not really in my book. Just thoughts to ponder and debate.

From: Live2Hunt
09-Nov-23
Well, here in Wisconsin the deer population on the public land is decreasing and does not rebuild anymore. Wolves being the biggest factor, then from what I witnessed is xgun full inclusion and the ability to shoot at anything that comes by within 100 yards. Yes, that is what they are advertised for and don't tell me that people do not take that shot. A 200 acre parcel of public forest after the "archery" season or the new gun season for the xgunners, there were 6 dead deer found in the woods from a group of xgunners that hunted it that season. That area was a great bowhunting spot, but now is a wasteland. Most on here who don't care what weapon people hunt with or that would like it to be any weapon are mainly private land owners or private land only hunters. Same with the too many deer people, private land only. Wisconsin has large tracts of public forest that are now wastelands for hunting. I sure would not recommend anyone come here and hunt the public forests. I have to unless I go out of state.

09-Nov-23
"Call me stupid, but wait 20 years. Would this be a bad thing for game management and hunting. Not really in my book. Just thoughts to ponder and debate."

inclusion of crossbows in archery season is the least of our worries (as it pertains to game management) over the next 20 years. in my opinion, you (and others) have a personal animus against crossbows and the people who use them...and you just cant get over it. in all honesty...as a traditional only bowhunter...i used to feel the same way. yes...theyre easier than a compound...and a compound is easier than a recurve...and a recurve is easier than longbow or a self bow...and theyre all more difficult than a gun...and none of them have any bearing on how i choose to hunt.

From: JohnMC
09-Nov-23
Tell me you use a crossbow without telling me you use a crossbow. Could of been the title of this thread.

From: deerhunter72
09-Nov-23
JohnMC, I’ll tell you that yes, I sometimes hunt with a crossbow. Also, a compound bow, shotgun, muzzleloader, revolver and next year a recurve. I like weapons of all sorts and I have a lot of them and if it’s legal to hunt with then I’ll use it. I’m a deer hunter, and I don’t limit myself out of fear that any elitist might label me. I bought the crossbow a few years back when I had hand surgery and would’ve been unable to hunt otherwise. I kept it because I like weapons. The advantage it gives is the ability to cock it and leave it that way and that’s it. Otherwise it’s a disadvantage in every other way to me; heavy and very awkward being the 2 biggest for me. I have a top of the line scope and it isn’t any better than a peep site and lighted pins. I have no doubt that I could get a better scope for my compound. It doesn’t shoot any further than any high tech compound. Shoot anything at 100 yards?? Not in any woods I’ve ever hunted in. You still need to be a good hunter to kill a mature buck with a crossbow. The 2 bow shops around here sell and service crossbows and haven’t seemed to suffer. The sky is not falling.

I do take exception with Higgins’ statement. Labeling and mocking other hunters is bad for us all. I don’t like a bully in any way and that’s what I took from his comment on the clip in the link. Nothing personal John; I appreciate your humor and love your photography.

09-Nov-23
“with an old 45cal knight inline that was predicted to decimate the whitetail population 40 some odd years ago”

Was it REALLY that anyone thought that the deer population would suffer, or just that ML season would be ruined for ML hunters?

Up here, ML used to mean flinch-locks and PRB in a season where tags were tightly limited, by lottery only, and prior to Shotgun. I can’t tell you off-hand if smoothbores were also required, but there were plenty of guys willing to shoot a flintlock because the woods were far less crowded and success rates were good.

Post-Inlines, ML tags are unlimited, OTC; the season starts in December after two rounds of shotgun season and the success rate is always under 5%.

So basically, inlines have had zero effect on the deer herd, but a somewhat unique and thoroughly enjoyable public-land hunting opportunity has been completely destroyed. The impact of compounds and crossbows has been pretty much the same on public land archery, no matter what you hunt or where. It’s easy to say it doesn’t matter when you are blissfully unaffected, sitting there on your depredation permit.

If killing animals is all that matters, it doesn’t matter what you kill them with. But Archery & ML seasons were not lobbied for or put in place for the purpose of killing more animals — that’s just what they have spiraled down into.

09-Nov-23
"Tell me you use a crossbow without telling me you use a crossbow. Could of been the title of this thread."

for the record, i have never hunted with a crossbow in my life. i started hunting with a recurve in in the early 70s...switched to a compound in the 80s and back to a recurves and longbows in the 90s and have been hunting with them ever since.

i just dont happen to see crossbows as the evil boogieman that is going to be the death of bowhunting like some others here.

From: Jack Harris
09-Nov-23
Talking elk - never seems to be much debate with xbows.... But it's just a matter of "when", not "if".... (IMHO).

Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona and Washington allow crossbows during gun season, and during archery for handicapped.

Not a legal archery weapon in Montana.

Wyoming does seem to allow them for elk during archery season.

Canada? Seems to be only for handicapped during archery-only seasons.

I only looked at Maine for Moose and crossbows - it's not legal.

Seems to me - it's probably a matter of time before all big game allows the XBOW to be used during general archery season, but for now it's mainly whitetail deer across North America.

09-Nov-23
“Wyoming does seem to allow them for elk during archery season.”

Wyoming doesn’t just seem to allow them during archery season, they do allow them…for all species, not just elk. Been that way for decades.

Since you brought up elk, I’ll give a couple reasons why I would emphatically oppose MB’s suggestion to create a one season/any weapon free-for-all. First off, allowing firearms to be legal state-wide during the rut would be beyond devastating for obvious reasons. On the flip side, having the season outside the rut would end my elk hunting days. As much as I love filling my tag, I love the thrill of calling them in even more. I have zero interest in not being able to chase bugles. Lastly, and probably most importantly, sending in an army of rifle hunters at the same time bowhunters are sneaking through the woods would be a recipe for disaster.

09-Nov-23
“Seems to me - it's probably a matter of time before all big game allows the XBOW to be used during general archery season…”

Nope. Only in areas where they can’t kill enough animals.

And Wyoming is onto a very practical (and JMO thoroughly objectionable) solution with allowing landowners to decide for themselves how many cow Elk they oughtta kill every year.

Personally, I figure that private landowners who want to keep everybody else out and keep the animals all to themselves should expect to pay the cost of feeding all of the animals that they’re hoarding whether the animals are eating Hay or Hostas, but that’s just me….

09-Nov-23
Just for the record, I did not propose a one season option. I do believe we are headed that direction and it has already happened with some species. If we continue to dilute and dumb down the archery seasons and it goes to one season then I am ok with it. Just the way it is.

09-Nov-23
"Just for the record, I did not propose a one season option. I do believe we are headed that direction and it has already happened with some species"

not in my lifetime.

different species are just that...different. different game populations...different hunter densities...different safety concerns.

From: Supernaut
09-Nov-23

Supernaut's embedded Photo
Supernaut's embedded Photo
I prefer my "muzzle loader" hunting with a flint lock and without a scope or a bolt.

I have a real nice 7mm that I can use in rifle season and enjoy that as well. I wouldn't want to hunt with my 7mm in archery or muzzle loader season.

I'd rather not see cross bows in archery or inlines in muzzle loader season but that's just my opinion.

09-Nov-23
In the big picture, and mentioned by some on this forum is the loss of hunting culture and tradition. Tradition has always been a significant driving force for the future of bow and arrow hunting.

Advancements in technology have significantly eroded and fractured hunting culture, tradition, and community. This is exactly what the antihunters want.

Currently there is a rapid decline in the use of hunting camps in the east, especially in areas such as Wisconsin and Michigan. Technology differences is only one factor, but it is a factor in the demise of many camps. I know this first hand. Bow and arrow hunting and the associated culture and tradition is in decline. Have you heard that one before ?

09-Nov-23
In the big picture, and mentioned by some on this forum is the loss of hunting culture and tradition. Tradition has always been a significant driving force for the future of bow and arrow hunting.

Advancements in technology have significantly eroded and fractured hunting culture, tradition, and community. This is exactly what the antihunters want.

Currently there is a rapid decline in the use of hunting camps in the east, especially in areas such as Wisconsin and Michigan. Technology differences is only one factor, but it is a factor in the demise of many camps. I know this first hand. Bow and arrow hunting and the associated culture and tradition is in decline. Have you heard that one before ?

From: Mint
09-Nov-23
In New York they made them legal for anyone over 60 which I think is a pretty good compromise. I think they should outlaw scopes and make them open sights only which will limit their distance. If for crossbow what about the airbow? To me I think they are the same but I've only hunted with a longbow or recurve.

09-Nov-23
"Currently there is a rapid decline in the use of hunting camps in the east, especially in areas such as Wisconsin and Michigan. Technology differences is only one factor, but it is a factor in the demise of many camps. I know this first hand. Bow and arrow hunting and the associated culture and tradition is in decline. Have you heard that one before ?"

honestly no.

what does choice of weapon have to do with participation in hunting camps?

baby boomers are aging out...younger people are busier...and many dont choose to spend their limited vacation time at a hunt camp...not to mention that hunting finds itself in competition with a whole host of other recreational activities. when they do decide to go hunting, many prefer to be as efficient with their time as possible...and in many cases that means more efficient weapons.

times change...people change...traditions change...weapons change...and game managers have to change accordingly.

From: Catscratch
09-Nov-23
Crossbow inclusion was brought to us via powerful lobbying from manufactures. Had nothing to do with game management. I imagine it can happen in any state regardless of if it makes sense. It had nothing to do with if we can kill enough animals or not.

Many landowners are already paying to feed big game. Deer hammer ag crops pretty hard. Many farmers would just as soon not have those losses when it's time to cut beans.

09-Nov-23
Remember, I mentioned weapon choice as only one factor. It is however a significant factor in camps I have been associated with.

Bow and arrows were never meant to be an efficient weapon. In fact during many archery season conceptions, we were allotted only one deer tag. Bow and arrow hunters chose to be inefficient and hunt the hard way. This had little impact on populations hence the long archery seasons inclusive of vulnerable rutting times.

Thank you for pointing out that today's hunters only want to be more efficient. In other words, they put the quick kill above the actual hunt. I get it.

09-Nov-23
Archery season has been dumbed down.

From: BC173
09-Nov-23
Pete Shepley was at the forefront of getting crossbows legalized, and the reason you couldn’t give a PSE, other than to use as a boat anchor. A recent article quoted a PSE upper level manager, “ we probably cut our own throats pushing the crossbow issue.”Reason being, compound sales are only a small fraction of what they used to be. And he also stated, “ in the coming years, there is going to be fewer and fewer bow manufacturers because of the decline in compound use.” He also mentioned with increasing harvest numbers, to look for shorter seasons in the future.

A lot of ppl, here, on this thread are bitching, moaning and complaining about his statement I don’t have a bitch. I thought his statement was succinct and accurate.

09-Nov-23
No complaints here, time to face reality.

09-Nov-23
“ A lot of ppl, here, on this thread are bitching, moaning and complaining about his statement…”

Personally, I don’t think he has helped anyone by dragging a totally unrelated hot-button issue into the conversation. He’s not trying to change any minds, but couldn’t resist an opportunity to play it for laughs…

As MoBreaks pointed out, the original intention behind Archery season was to set aside some low-pressure opportunity for those who just wanted to bowhunt, and were willing to forego the efficiency and the expected success rate of a more modern weapon in exchange for the privilege. If crossbows were consistent with the original Intent, they would have been included from Day One. But they were deliberately and specifically excluded, for Good and Sufficient Reasons. ‘Tis a moot, philosophical debate whether today’s compounds and accessories would have been excluded had they existed at the time, but it requires no extraordinary imaginative capacity to surmise that they would not have been, and for the same reasons that crossbows were.

From: Jack Harris
09-Nov-23
For you catholic xbow users….

Why the Crossbow Was Banned by the Catholic Church

As early as the late 1090s the ruling class of western Europe petitioned Pope Urban II to ban the use of the crossbow because of “its brutality in war.” The Pope complied, but the Papal edict did not seem to make much headway then or later; nor did it prevent the merchant guilds in London, Paris, Genoa, and Prague from continuing to manufacture and sell, at a handsome price, thousands of crossbows each year. Further, the fact that the foremost soldier of the age, Richard I of England (The Lionhearted), was an expert with the weapon did little to advance the anticrossbow crusade.

The Church, with the strong encouragement of the European nobility, tried again, if not to completely ban the weapon, then at least to have it pointed at non-Christians. The Second Lateran Council in 1139 decreed that the device was unfit for use by Christians, and that those who used the crossbow against anyone other than infidels (Muslims and heretics) would be placed under penalty of an anathema.

The prohibition was confirmed at the close of the same century by Pope Innocent III. Following the Church’s lead, and citing moral and religious reasons, Conrad III, Duke of Swabia and Holy Roman Emperor (1138-1152), forbade the use of the crossbow in his domains, which at that time meant all of central Europe. But the weapon was so popular on that part of the Continent, especially Bohemia, that the ban had the effect of quickening the spread of its use. Fearing contagion, the English aristocracy also banned the crossbow on religious grounds, but added a twist by giving the prohibition the color of civil law when inserting it into the Magna Carta of 1215.

Link to full article Some interesting history on the crossbow

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/the-medieval-crossbow-redefining-war-in-the-middle-ages/

From: Jack Harris
09-Nov-23

09-Nov-23
Now, pop a modern scope on it and add some high tech cams etc.

From: Bou'bound
10-Nov-23
Never shot one. I think I held one twice. How do people lug those things around the woods. Honestly a very bulky and finicky contraption it seems.

10-Nov-23
"Bow and arrows were never meant to be an efficient weapon. In fact during many archery season conceptions, we were allotted only one deer tag. Bow and arrow hunters chose to be inefficient and hunt the hard way. This had little impact on populations hence the long archery seasons inclusive of vulnerable rutting times."

first of all...historically speaking bows and arrows were intended to be an efficient weapon...more efficient than what preceded them...like rocks, spears, etc...but thats kind of beside the point in terms of modern hunting seasons.

second...we all still have that choice. nobody has taken that away. if i want to hunt deer with a self bow...cane shoots and knapped tips...wearing nothing but a loin cloth and moccasins...nobody is stopping me...or you.

10-Nov-23
"As MoBreaks pointed out, the original intention behind Archery season was to set aside some low-pressure opportunity for those who just wanted to bowhunt, and were willing to forego the efficiency and the expected success rate of a more modern weapon in exchange for the privilege."

yes...few people would disagree with that...not me for sure. what is also true is that deer populations then were nowhere near what they are now. we didnt need to kill as many deer then as we do now. in many areas we need to kill more deer in a single season than even existed in a single season back then. back then...they didnt want bowhunters to be too much of an impact. now they need bowhunters to be more of an impact.

people have to realize that the romance and tradition of what bowhunting was "originally meant to be" is a personal thing...and we all have the opportunity to make our personal experience whatever we want. if i want my experience to be just like bowhunting was "originally meant to be...i can do that. nobody is stopping me.

if someone else just wants the most efficient way to put an arrow through a deer...they can to that too. its not like theyre making crossbows legal and all other bows illegal.

game managers have a serious job to do and they will continue to add seasons...methods...weapons and bag limits in order to achieve their goals of properly managing the resource.

romance and tradition aside...that is the reality.

10-Nov-23
If the goal is to kill animals in the most efficient means, why have an archery season at all ? Stop dodging the question.

As I have mentioned, current archery seasons have been dumbed way down, very evident on this thread.

10-Nov-23
"If the goal is to kill animals in the most efficient means, why have an archery season at all ?"

I never said that.

what i said was that is the goal for some hunters. for other hunters...its exactly the opposite. the job of the game managers is to allow for the engagement of the most hunters (game management tools) in an attempt to reach their game management goals. like it or not...you see yourself as bow hunter in the way they were "originally meant to be"...whereas the game managers see us all as management tools...regardless of the weapon we choose.

"Stop dodging the question."

what question am i dodging?

if anyone is dodging anything it is you. you are dodging the reality of the situation. you are dodging the reality of what your role is in modern game management.

10-Nov-23
"Me thinks" it is very obvious there are plenty of closet scoped and cocked shooters here on a bowhunting forum. Ya, they may still own a real bow, but it is largely collecting dust.

10-Nov-23
"Stop dodging the question."

What question was that again?

10-Nov-23
I’m sure glad we got that straight

10-Nov-23
Question for anyone. If the previously stated goal is to kill animals in the most efficient manner, why have a separate archery season?

Seems to me we did a pretty good job of decimating the game herds long before any state legalized a separate bow and arrow season for non native hunters. Modern archery seasons were created not for game management, but rather as a time for hunters to challenge themselves with LESS efficient weapons which had minimal impacts on game populations.

I think some of you young squirts would do well by studying modern archery history and realizing what you have missed. In the meantime, good luck with your scoped and cocked more efficient bolt machines. Make sure your vice is tight. The rest of you, pick a spot and let an arrow fly. Good times to all.

10-Nov-23
"Question for anyone. If the previously stated goal is to kill animals in the most efficient manner, why have a separate archery season?"

first of all...to my knowledge nobody ever made that statement.

second...even if they had...the question has already been answered...multiple times.

"Modern archery seasons were created not for game management, but rather as a time for hunters to challenge themselves with LESS efficient weapons which had minimal impacts on game populations.

wrong. that might have been true for the original archery seasons...but that is nowhere close to the truth for "modern archery seasons."

we are in a situation in most areas were more impact is needed...not less.

"I think some of you young squirts would do well by studying modern archery history and realizing what you have missed."

im ceretainly no "young squirt...been bowhunting for close to a half century...but then again...im not the equivalent of the old duffer yelling at kids to keep off his grass.

i suggest you do a little research on "modern wildlife management." it just might open your eyes to how game departments are trying to manage wildlife in the 21st century.

From: Live2Hunt
10-Nov-23
Again, here in Wisconsin the only place that deer need to be managed is on the private tracts of land and mainly in Southern WI. The public land, which there is a lot of, is devoid of deer. In the Northern 1/3 of the state, I would feel bad shooting a buck. Rifle season is for management, bows in metro areas. Again, you out of staters, I would not waste any money in WI if you plan to hunt public land. It is terrible now.

10-Nov-23
"Again, here in Wisconsin the only place that deer need to be managed is on the private tracts of land and mainly in Southern WI. The public land, which there is a lot of, is devoid of deer."

i dont know about wisconsin but isnt cwd a large part of a deliberate attempt to reduce overall deer numbers? i know it is here in michigan. whether we like it or not...the bloated deer herds of the 80s 90s and early 2000s are a thing of the past and the game departments have every intention of making sure they dont return...and if it takes expanded seasons weapons and methods...that is what they are going to do.

10-Nov-23
"As far as game management changes go. The only significant change I've seen is that it cost more to kill more."

its a lot more complicated than just just to words but in a nutshell i think you answered your own question. lol

in order to kill more...the stakeholders (management tools)...as well as their weapon preferences... have to be taken into consideration.

10-Nov-23
Do not limit yourselves to the eastern whitetail mentality. There is a much greater picture than the diseased, overpopulated whitetail herd found in much of the east. Much greater.

From: Live2Hunt
10-Nov-23
Only in the Southern county's of WI was there the infamous CWD kill off. The big forest areas of the state don't have enough deer left.

10-Nov-23
"The big forest areas of the state don't have enough deer left"

what do you attribute that to?

in the up of michigan a harsh winter or two can decimate the deer herd for a decade or more. it sure isnt the crossbows.

10-Nov-23
“wrong. that might have been true for the original archery seasons...but that is nowhere close to the truth for ‘modern archery seasons.’”

Spoken like a True Blue Conservative. Good to know that you believe that laws should be freely modified to suit the preferences of the majority, who just don’t want to have to work that hard.

And FWIW, in the ‘20s and ‘30s, western deer herds were so large that there wasn’t “enough” grass for the sheep and cattle to eat. In the early ‘50s, a Colorado deer license was good for 2 of each sex. Just sayin’…. This is a big-ass country we live in, and if you don’t appreciate regional differences, you really oughtta stop and listen a minute, or maybe do a little research on your own.

Either way, in places like, oh, the entire Atlantic region, there could be a 6-month season for fully automatic weapons and it would not achieve the herd reduction objectives of the state wildlife managers. Ever. Hell, they could legalize helicopter gun ships and it wouldn’t make a dent. Because (just in case you haven’t noticed) reducing the deer population is not exactly a high priority on all of that private land on the other side of the PRIVATE PROPERTY - NO HUNTING signs. You know — the non-agricultural land with all of the deer-specific, monoculture food plots which have been put in to MAXIMIZE the growth of the resident herds?

It’s pretty simple, no matter where you go — there is no surplus of big game anywhere in this country on Public land, and there is no weapon system effective enough to kill animals where they don’t exist, or where there is no interest in killing them.

And gutting the entire purpose of ML and Archery seasons (HUNTER management) in a 100% foreseeably futile effort to address a WILDLIFE management problem is the epitome of Stupid.

10-Nov-23
"Spoken like a True Blue Conservative. Good to know that you believe that laws should be freely modified to suit the preferences of the majority, who just don’t want to have to work that hard."

...and spoken like a true blue liberal lefty. a total misrepresentation of what someone else said.

what i said was that laws should be modified to achieve the goals of the game managers...and the preferences of the stakeholders should be taken into consideration. that would include all stakeholders...not just one group. not just the bowhunting should be hard group...and not just the most efficient way to put an arrow through a deer group.

nice try...but you should really brush up on your reading skills.

in my opinion, what truly is the "epitome of stupid" is thinking that one person cant pursue their idea of bowhunting if at the same time someone else decides to pursue something different.

like i said before, i'm old enough to remember when the exact same things that are being said about crossbows were also said about compounds...just as vehemently and just as passionately. "compounds arent real bows"..."compounds are machines"..."compounds are for people looking for the easy way out"..."i can become proficient enough with a compound to kill a deer in an afternoon"..."too many deer will be killed and it will result in shorter seasons"...blah...blah...blah. yet here we are...the only real risk we have is that not enough young people are taking it up...regardless of the type of bow.

10-Nov-23
"It’s pretty simple, no matter where you go — there is no surplus of big game anywhere in this country on Public land..."

and the reason for that is pretty simple also. for the most part...public land is not the most optimal habitat and unless deer are severely overpopulated everywhere else...they have little reason to be there. deer will always gravitate to the best habitat with the least amount of pressure...and that is usually private land...regardless of what weapon the hunters are carrying.

10-Nov-23
After all the rhetoric, the one thing that cannot be disputed is some hunters want to hunt less, and kill easier. No way to combat that fact. Today it is less about the hunt and challenge, and more about the ease of the kill. Glad I am a bow and arrow hunter, as the season was originally intended. My gender will stay the same too.

From: Live2Hunt
10-Nov-23
No problems at all in the 70's, 80's and 90's for deer populations on county land. They have all the feed they wanted and needed. Even after winter kill they were there. Now with Wolves (#1, but still found deer sign to at least hunt) and now X-guns coming on the scene your hard pressed to find anything you would consider good to hunt.

10-Nov-23
In the 70's, 80's and 90's I hunted public land exclusively. Filled my tags every single year, most with an osage selfbow, rest with glass backed longbow. No issue at all.

10-Nov-23
“..public land is not the most optimal habitat and unless deer are severely overpopulated everywhere else...they have little reason to be there. deer will always gravitate to the best habitat with the least amount of pressure...and that is usually private land...regardless of what weapon the hunters are carrying.”

Which is why I mentioned that helicopter gunships won’t get herds down to management objectives while private landowners continue to protect and propagate “their” herds…

So the point is that trashing the hunting experience on Public land will NEVER achieve the harvest objectives — it just makes Public land hunting SUCK even worse, prompting more and more Public Land Hunters to buy up Private and start farming their own herds.

So REALLY, if the managers in the deer-surplus states had any sense, they would stop degrading the experience of the specialty seasons (on Public) and go to a choose-your-weapon system so that more hunters could enjoy a higher quality experience. Then they need to ban baiting on public land entirely, and also at least on Private, at least within some reasonable distance from publicly hunted areas, so as to prevent public-land deer being drawn off into Private for the duration of the season. (How screwed up is THAT?) Frankly, I’d like to see ALL baiting banned, because I don’t believe that it works out in actual practice AT ALL as it was intended…

Then the states just need to provide either incentives for non-hunting landowners to open up their land to some reasonable amount of hunting, and/or some kind of penalty for those who are actively contributing to the overpopulation problem… like banning the feeding of wildlife and getting food plots legally classified as Feeding….. since that’s what it IS….

It’s either that or wait for some clever lawyer to file a civil suit against a deer farmer for having created a public nuisance by artificially elevating the deer density, thereby causing their client’s grievous injuries or wrongful death.

11-Nov-23
"After all the rhetoric, the one thing that cannot be disputed is some hunters want to hunt less, and kill easier. No way to combat that fact."

nobody ever disputed that...and why would you want or need to "combat that fact?"

you hunt any way you want within the law...and the next guy will hunt any way he wants within the law...and we all live happily ever after.

seems pretty simple.

11-Nov-23
"I fully understand the commitment & passion associated with the different types of Archery. And how one could despise the ease of operation of the xbow & put in the same category as other bow types.

But the facts are .....like it or not, their here to stay, so ya best just get over it & you do you & accept that others are gonna do as they please within the legal law.

couldnt agree more.

if i could add one more thing it would be that wildlife departments have a job to do and while we might not like it...dwindling hunter numbers...fewer and fewer young people taking up bowhunting...and more and more recreational choices to choose from...they are going to do what they have to do to attract as many participants as possible.

if you think about it...in a healthy size deer herd that is appropriate for the habitat...somewhere between a quarter and a third of the deer have to die every year in order to keep the status quo. that is a pretty daunting task in terms of getting enough participants to participate...helping them be successful...getting them to kill enough does...and attempting to keep all the warring factions happy.

From: IKE220
11-Nov-23
I live in Central IL. The state regulations used to read (I'm paraphrasing) no device to hold the bow at full draw allowed. Then IMO, several years ago the crossbow manufacturers along with the insurance lobby (who want fewer deer) got crossbows passed for hunting during archery season while being able bodied. It is not bow hunting it is a string rifle. It takes alot of trial and error to learn when to draw on an animal. That's the game I want to play. Sometime I feel like the deer are playing chess and I'm playing checkers. :) I think it is the "everyone gets a trophy mentality ". Everyone can shoot what's legal but the lawmakers are the ones that failed. Local bowshops are closed all over the area.

From: Glunt@work
11-Nov-23
I have no doubt they are here to stay. Actually, they are likely to grow in popularity quite a bit. I also have no issue with live and let live when people are making their choice from the list of legal methods.

Unfortunately, that wasn't the mindset the inclusion advocates had when they fought hard to change bow season into something different to create a demand that didnt exist yet for a product.

11-Nov-23
" It takes alot of trial and error to learn when to draw on an animal. That's the game I want to play."

same here....its even tougher when you have no let-off. lol

back in the day...archery shops had to adapt and start carrying compounds or they went out of business.

now they have to adapt and start carrying crossbows.

pretty sure lancaster sells everything and they are doing fine.

From: jjs
11-Nov-23
It is the death of bowhunting for what it was to be, just waiting to hit the western states and it will be a lottery to bow hunt on public land.

We are the ones to blame for not getting political active with the ramifications of what the x-gun factor will do. Of course the NRA did a run around to the Wi. bow hunters with Politicians getting it in following the bow season.

Would have been very simple by making bow hunting fingers on the string and we wouldn't be done this road.

Enjoy the hunt.

11-Nov-23
Jjs fully understands the ramifications beyond the eastern whitetail box blind mentality.

11-Nov-23
"It is the death of bowhunting for what it was to be..."

...so was the compound.

" just waiting to hit the western states and it will be a lottery to bow hunt on public land."

if the wildlife departments are doing their jobs...they will not allow a weapon that will adversely affect the resource. it's really that simple. those decisions should be based on what is happening on the ground there. whats right for michigan may or may not be right for montana. whats right for texas may or may not be right for wisconsin. hell whats right for southern lower michigan isnt always right for northern lower michigan...and certainly not for the up.

From: IKE220
11-Nov-23
If your an archer you shoot regularly, you tinker, wreck some arrows, go to 3d shoots, ect. IMO most crossbow shooter make sure the string rifle is still sighted in before hunting season. Not as much need for archery shops. Ricky...."so was the compound" I think Fred Bear would disagree

11-Nov-23
Controlling the herd can be challenging with lots of hunter opportunity, or an instant slaughter with very efficient weapons. That is really how simple it is.

11-Nov-23
Bow and arrow hunting was never about controlling the herd, that is much easier to accomplish with guns. And now scoped crossbows.

From: Mpdh
11-Nov-23
I shoot recurves and longbows because that’s what I like to use. Late 70s early 80s I owned and hunted with a couple of compounds, but never liked the feel of letoff. I also think I am a better hunter with a trad bow, but don’t care what someone else uses.

I feel sorry at times for hunters who have always done things the easiest way possible. Most of them don’t know what they’re missing.

From: Owl
11-Nov-23
I can't help but think of the times I've drawn my bow and held it at full draw well in advance of animal stepping clear of brush and when it does I just nestle into my peep and squeeze the trigger. With an 85% let-off, the burden is actually smaller than the trigger pull on the only 2 crossbows I've ever fired. lol Each time I remember saying, "It's easier to shoot my bow."

Now, the market may have a much lighter xbow trigger out there but, if not, I'm more accurate with my compound out to 30. And I am no Robin Hood.

I also recognize my buying habits made the xbow inevitable. Chasing the newest, lightest, highest let-off, easiest tuning bows, highest vis. fiber optic (lit) pins, hair trigger release aids, etc. - it's just hypocritical to cry now.

As timex mentioned, I can only speak for the Commonwealth of VA. Every state can decide for itself and draw tag states may do well to exclude them. Of course, they would probably do well to cap compound performance capabilities, as well. But that is a topic for another day.

12-Nov-23
"Ricky...."so was the compound" I think Fred Bear would disagree."

its interesting that you bring up fred bear. in reality...fred bear didnt really want anything to do with the compound...other than to profit from where he saw the market moving. he didnt shoot one...he didnt like shooting them...and to my knowledge never once killed an animal with one. fred did embrace new technology though...and he was all about introducing as many new people as possible to archery and bowhunting. he didnt have to personally like something in order to see its benefits or potential.

interestingly enough...fred bear parted ways with his original bowyer (nels grumley) because nels didnt like the direction archery was going. grumley believed that each bow should be hand made and not mass produced in a factory setting. basically...grumley didnt think that was the way things were "meant to be."

just goes to show you that every time advances are made...someone or some group is going think its not the way things were "meant to be."

time marches on...

From: carcus
12-Nov-23
Just watched the reel, pretty spot on, I don't care for crossbows, my father has a high end 10 point, the thing is worth more than a carbon bow, his shoulders are shot so thats why he is using it. That said he is done hunting, he went once this year and said he no longer wants to hunt, so I guess I will inherit it and use it if my shoulders give out. I find my compound a more efficient weapon. What I've found funny over the years is many of these anti crossbow and anti compound guys don't shoot anything with their bows then go with a rifle and post their pictures on a archery site.

From: Live2Hunt
12-Nov-23
If you think public land does not have the habitat, you’re not up in deer habitat. Here is a fact, in WI there were no deer in the Southern half of the state in the farm areas. All deer were in the large Northern forests. Old timers in our camp would say if you did not see 20+ deer a day you were not in the woods. Yes, now most deer in WI are on private farm areas, but the forests can also support large herds. You do know that even in farm country a deer eats 65% browse. Same stuff in the forests. FYI, had a real good buck at 35 yards. No shot with my recurve, maybe with a compound, xgun? I’m sure bolts would have flown for young gunners at 100.

12-Nov-23
If you take the time to listen, Don is not against crossbows. He is against able bodied hunter’s using them the entire archery season. The ironic thing about hunters that decided to switch to the easier method to kill a mature buck has caused them to be hunting where the mature buck is more rare which has greatly reduced their chance of even seeing one. A recent trip to the Illinois deer classic should be an eye opener compared to the years prior to the Xbow. Illinois will continue to get worse for older age class bucks. They kill more deer with crossbow in some counties than they do with guns.

From: Live2Hunt
12-Nov-23
Iowa, that’s is exactly what is happening here and what I was always afraid of. Well said.

From: Jaquomo
12-Nov-23
Can't speak to Midwestern whitetail hunting, but this year hunting WY general elk there were way more resident hunters than when I last hunted the units in 2020. (NRs are capped..). I hunted two different units and moved camp four times, and was blown away at the growth in crossbow hunters in just three years. It was like hunting CO OTC, as far as numbers. And of course, many of the ones I talked with volunteered that they have "shoulder problems", as if they were feeling guilty, without my even asking.

13-Nov-23
"Basically they used the hoards of hunters that only ventured a short distance from their vehicles to their advantage. When the deer moved deeper into the woods , they were there."

hey...wait a minute. are you saying the deer might actually still be there on public land...and maybe they havent all been killed by those lazy crossbow hunters that never venture beyond the sight of their truck? lol

From: Live2Hunt
13-Nov-23
I was going to say, great idea for years ago when there were deer herds on public land, but here in WI if there are gun hunters out, they sit there bait piles and don't move. You can go in deep for the adventure aspect, but it will not help you anymore for more deer, LOL.

From: HunterR
29-Nov-23
Wisconsin’s deer hunting surely is not “ruined” by crossbows as some Negative Nancys are trying to make you believe. There still are plenty of deer in most areas of the state other than maybe a few small pockets in the northern area and most areas are still over goal, so from a management perspective possibly the crossbow season should be extended. IF there are any deer shortages anywhere in Wisconsin (BIG IF) it would be in the north and it would be because of wolves and not crossbows, although, deer are constantly being harvested from the same counties and from public lands that some guys are crying have no deer. The whining about crossbows is jealousy, guys jealous that someone will shoot “their” buck and guys jealous that more folks are out hunting deer earlier in the year so they now have to share the public lands with others and simply can't figure out how to do that and still be successful. Bottom line, don’t let the Debbie Downers talk you into believing Wisconsin’s deer hunting sucks and is in great peril, people are killing deer on most lands in Wisconsin and that includes most public lands every single year and have been ever since the current crossbow season was created. Some "guys" just like to whimper and whine and blame all their problems on someone or something else.

From: Bou'bound
29-Nov-23
Jac

I’ve often wondered if shoulder injuries and crossbows are a chicken in the egg thing.

Do people carry crossbows because they’ve got sore shoulders that are broken down or did they get sore wrecked shoulders from lugging those monstrous contraptions around

From: Highlife
29-Nov-23

From: Brotsky
29-Nov-23
The biggest medical challenge I tend to see with guys that choose to use a crossbow is menopause.

29-Nov-23
The same guys that use crossbows would use any legal means to kill, when they open up electrification season and poison season , they will be all over that too, because it’s easier

From: APauls
29-Nov-23
The addition of crossbows to archery is having the desired effect. Lowering the age class of deer. Triples the number of "archery" hunters out there with essentially 70 yard rifles. Combined with trail cameras more trophies get shot. More trophies get shot, average age class decreases. Why is this the goal you ask?

CWD is more apparent in older age class deer because they have more chances of getting it. It's almost like mercury in older fish. Where CWD is around, the older a deer is, the higher the likelihood it has CWD. So the state wants to reduce average age to reduce number of deer that have CWD. It's not ACTUALLY about what constitutes archery and what doesn't. Or so the theory goes anyways...

From: Jaquomo
29-Nov-23
Bou, some of these new crossbows (without scope) weigh about the same as a compound.

I did 8 months of rigorous PT this past spring and summer, then dialed a compound down to 52 pounds, so I could hunt with a bow this year. Or I could have gone down to Wal Mart and bought a crossbow, sighted it in, and been good to go. From what I experienced this year in WY, it appeared many did just that. I could have killed a great bull I called straight in that never gave me the opportunity to draw my bow. With a crossbow, automatic.

Even the crossbow hunter camped near me at one spot was complaining about it, and he finally got frustrated and decided to wait until rifle season to keep hunting.

I can't speak to the Midwest, but where I hunt in WY, crossbows have certainly had a detrimental effect on the quality of the bowhunting experience, in a relatively short time.

From: Supernaut
29-Nov-23
Like Lou above, I busted my ass with physical therapy after rotator cuff surgery in January to be ready for this archery season. I was able to hunt with my Bear Grizzly recurve and kill a buck and a doe.

Hunting with a crossbow was never going to be an option for me and it never will be. I'll either learn to shoot with a mouth tab or quit bow hunting and gun hunt if I can't pull a bow back.

Crossbows are here to stay in PA archery season but that doesn't mean I have to like it or use one.

From: xtroutx
29-Nov-23
I see your still around pushing your x bow crap HunterR. If you don't think it has effected Wi public land archery hunting, you don't get out of your box blind much. 33k bow kills so far this year and 50k+ x bow kills. BTW I am disabled and over 65. I also shoot 52 lbs.

29-Nov-23
Good stuff !

29-Nov-23
As far as Wisconsin, HunterR is pretty accurate in my opinion. I do believe the west has a much different dynamic with other species.

From: xtroutx
29-Nov-23
What does species have to do with it?

29-Nov-23
Trout this is just my opinion and I will let others from the west chime in. I believe in open terrain and with vulnerable species such as elk and mule deer, the scoped crossbow would be extremely effective, right from the vehicle side. I realize the herd will be managed through limited drawings but if nothing else expect a great reduction in opportunity as success goes up and hunter numbers expecting to hunt in the west increases. Many of these areas are already on limited draws or quota systems.

From: jjs
29-Nov-23
HunterR, you took the old babble script from the early compound days, the only solution to this weapon is to have fingers on the string and that would keep bowhunting which is was originally intended for.

The Director of MNDNR stated this year as the x-gun became inclusive that it will bring more gun hunters into the so called bow deer bow season and that is a whole different mentality coming into a bow hunt. Bowhunting doesn't need more people it just needs better hunters.

Have no problem with physical disabled x-gun users but a healthy person is just another slob that bow hunting doesn't need, I'll stand by this.

29-Nov-23
I agree with jjs in that the archery seasons should have stayed as originally intended, unfortunately that has not happened.

HunterR's assessment of eastern hunter mentality is spot on, the Wisconsin forum will prove that fact.

29-Nov-23
What Pat said, on the other hand it’s been a lifesaver for urban deer management as much as it has about ruined rural and public land experiences. One aspect of the game changing is that with the crossbow there isn’t room in rural and public hunting areas for the rifles and muzzleloaders as the archery participation and harvest has boomed along with new tech.

Overall changes will need to be made to have quality experiences in those settings.

When it comes to western species, mule deer, elk, pronghorn I believe crossbows have absolutely no place in archery season. For all but the severely disabled. They just change the game too much

From: xtroutx
29-Nov-23
Missouri on Nov 9th. "In the big picture, and mentioned by some on this forum is the loss of hunting culture and tradition. Tradition has always been a significant driving force for the future of bow and arrow hunting. Advancements in technology have significantly eroded and fractured hunting culture, tradition, and community. This is exactly what the antihunters want." yet you agree with HunterR's assessment of the eastern hunter mentality, where generational old deer camps are being abandoned. The Wi forum on bowsite complaining is a minuscule fraction of the people commenting on that topic. To put it (kindly), you talk in circles.

29-Nov-23
Ok, just adding points for discussion.

From: xtroutx
29-Nov-23
Just adding shit to stir the pot, like you always do.

29-Nov-23
No problem here, this is a discussion forum. Opinions are just that, opinions.

From: bowwild
29-Nov-23
If (when) bow hunter numbers are used to defend the relevancy of this type of hunter and season, I'm sure non-crossbow fans will want to count the Xbow using folks among them. I'm a retired wildlife biologist/director in state agencies (IN, KS, MO, & KY) I used to be vigorously against the Xbow, some staff even photo-shopped a photo of a nice deer I killed by inserting a Xbow in the picture, just to get my goat during my retirement send -off. I don't use a Xbow even at 69, I'm still hunting with recurves. However, if I ever get to the point I can't hunt with a single string bow, I will use a Xbow to keep myself in the field. I do take advantage of the Xbow to get my grandchildren in the deer woods during the early warm weather archery season before they are able to use a vertical bow. They are very closely supervised because I think the Xbow is more dangerous than a centerfire rifle. As many have offered about the competition motive mentioned in the opening video, that is a very unfamiliar motivator to me. The idea of competition should be stomped out every time it is mentioned. Don't get me wrong, I love traditional competition, but it would be demeaning to hunting and the hunter. I don't consider hunting a "sport". Hunting is how I am a part of nature rather than apart from it.

From: Tracker
29-Nov-23
I own longbows, recurves, compounds and yes one Xbow. I use the Xbow during the gun season in areas that do not permit firearms. I will continue to do that and really could care less what others think.., I have a buddy that complains about Xbow them goes out and pours 200# or corn down to hunt over. Go figure.

From: Catscratch
30-Nov-23
Wisconsin has kept records of harvests pre-inclusion and post.

2013 Total 342,631 Gun 225,003

2014 Total 304,294 Gun 222,588

2022 Total 349,874 Gun 251,425

2013 Bow 87,628 CB 0

2014 Bow 54,815 CB 26,891

2022 Bow 38,017 CB 60,432

Read from it what you want but it's pretty apparent that the total number of harvest has stayed about the same, total number of gun harvest has stayed about the same, and the total number of archery harvests has stayed about the same. The biggest shifts are as compound hunter harvests drop, crossbow harvests go up. It's not rifle hunters stepping into archery via crossbow, it's compounder's. To me it's not surprising that a group of people who had been using the easiest possible weapon available... took advantage of the next easiest possible weapon. No clue if these numbers holds true out west as I don't think any other state took the trouble to keep records and publish data. It sounds like a completely different can of worms out there though.

30-Nov-23
couple quotes that i think encapsulate the subject quite well.

"Read from it what you want but it's pretty apparent that the total number of harvest has stayed about the same, total number of gun harvest has stayed about the same, and the total number of archery harvests has stayed about the same."

"Crossbows are here to stay in PA archery season but that doesn't mean I have to like it or use one."

if crossbows arent your thing...dont use one. if they arent putting any more pressure on the resource than "real bows" what difference does it make?

30-Nov-23
another post that i found interesting...

"The addition of crossbows to archery is having the desired effect. Lowering the age class of deer. Triples the number of "archery" hunters out there with essentially 70 yard rifles. Combined with trail cameras more trophies get shot. More trophies get shot, average age class decreases. Why is this the goal you ask?

CWD is more apparent in older age class deer because they have more chances of getting it. It's almost like mercury in older fish. Where CWD is around, the older a deer is, the higher the likelihood it has CWD. So the state wants to reduce average age to reduce number of deer that have CWD. It's not ACTUALLY about what constitutes archery and what doesn't. Or so the theory goes anyways..."

if this is the case...isnt this proper deer management? isnt this what is best for the resource long term? or are we just worried that some yahoo with a crossbow might whack a shooter buck before one of us purists get a crack at him.

30-Nov-23
bowwild: Aren’t you the guy that started the “Archery in the schools” program nation wide? Awesome program and thanks very much. Enabling kids to experience the “flight of the arrow” is magical. The bows used in that program cost a fraction of the price of entry for the crossbow.

How do you sync that program with your beliefs today regarding crossbows and the benefits to kids? $1,500 dollar crossbow gear required just to get started.

The “disabled only” entry path of crossbows used by manufacturers and state agencies has worked almost every time. Pulling on our heartstrings for disabled with the ultimate goal of “full inclusion”. It’s all ways about the money and in this case the money for manufacturers and state agencies. If crossbows were limited to gun seasons they would sell 7 per year. I get it.

There is now a nationwide record book for crossbows named “Bolt & Quarel”. This eliminates any calls for inclusion in P&Y Record book. Great solution to a problem that didn’t exist.

From: Groundhunter
30-Nov-23
Wis also has lost, not gained hunters in the archery season. I will have to look at stats.

From: Catscratch
30-Nov-23
"Wis also has lost, not gained hunters in the archery season. I will have to look at stats."

Here's the link I was looking at. Graphs make the trends easy to see. It's harvested data though, and not actual number of hunters. Gun and Total numbers are pretty much a flat line, Bow is declining, while Crossbow is inclining. https://apps.dnr.wi.gov/deermetrics/DeerStats.aspx

30-Nov-23
even though the number of crossbow users is increasing in michigan...the overall number of "archery" deer harvests is declining.

michigan reached its peak in the late 90s when bow hunters harvested more than 150000 deer...in 2022 it was about 95000...in 2023 it looks like it will be even less.

crossbows became legal in michigan for all hunters in 2009. the numbers just dont match the hype.

30-Nov-23
“… it’s been a lifesaver for urban deer management as much as it has about ruined rural and public land experiences.“

Ruined is a strong word for it, but depending on how much or how little public land you have to work with….

But the people who don’t understand the differences between states where the wildlife biologists are desperate to reduce their deer herds and states where they are contemplating ever more drastic measures to keep the hunting pressure under control… you guys need to get out more.

The good news is that states which are already rationing tags are not really likely to go looking for ways to make those tags even harder to come by, though I don’t know what they’re thinking In Wyoming…. Maybe they responding to the demands of wealthy, non-hunting property owners who feel that they’re being overrun by Elk?

From: Mapleman
01-Dec-23
'The biggest medical challenge I tend to see with guys that choose to use a crossbow is menopause' Could all compound shooters please list the reason they choose a compound over a recurve or longbow? For the record I hunt with both compound and crossbow.

From: Live2Hunt
01-Dec-23
Compound, recurve, longbow are bows. You physically draw them and shoot them the same. Xguns are guns, you shoulder them, look through the scope generally and pull the trigger, like, well a gun!!!! You can't place them in the same category. Now, Compound over a recurve/longbow? Well I hunted with a compound many years and now I went back to a recurve for the past 8 years. Yes, the compound with sights made shooting a bow easy, but you still had to know the mechanics of shooting a bow. My target panic got bad with sights, cost of stuff for compounds, and the full inclusion of the xguns for all pushed me up to a recurve. Nice to look at, fun to shoot, nice to carry and shooting instinctive my target panic is controlled. Anything else?

01-Dec-23
"Xguns are guns..."

come on...lets get real. like them or hate them...crossbows are not guns. they meet the definition of a bow. they do not meet the definition of a gun.

bow: a weapon that is used to propel an arrow and that is made of a strip of flexible material (such as wood) with a cord connecting the two ends and holding the strip bent

gun: a weapon incorporating a metal tube from which bullets, shells, or other missiles are propelled by explosive force, typically making a characteristic loud, sharp noise.

01-Dec-23
Nice post Live2.

From: Glunt@work
01-Dec-23
Crossbows aren't guns or bows.

From: Michael
01-Dec-23
Nebraska legalized crossbows in 2011. At the time I didn’t really care. Tags were not limited and I mainly hunted private land.

Fast forward to today and tags for Nonresidents are limited to 3000 a year. NGPC has came out and said that when harvest is down they will reduce tags. When harvest is up they will increase tags. On its face that sounds like sound management practices. However how many archers loose out on obtaining a tag because a crossbow user bought a tag.

When it comes to public lands in Nebraska. It is ranked 48th for total public land acres. The only 2 states that are worse are Kansas at 49 (they also allow crossbows in the archery season and nonresident tags are limited) and Rhode Island at 50. Before tags were limited in Nebraska the amount of pressure the public’s lands seen skyrocketed.

From: Live2Hunt
01-Dec-23
The operational aspect of a xgun is a like a gun which should put them in a gun category. The operational aspect of a compound is that of shooting a bow, any bow which would put them in that category. You have to be blind or an xgunner to not see that.

01-Dec-23

wyobullshooter's embedded Photo
wyobullshooter's embedded Photo
Yep, sure looks like a bow to me. How can anyone argue otherwise? (eye roll inserted)

From: Mapleman
01-Dec-23
'Anything else?' Yes. Could all compound shooters please list the reason they choose a compound over a recurve or longbow?

From: Catscratch
01-Dec-23
I'll answer the question. For me it's because it's easier. I practice enough to effectively hunt with my compound, not enough to hunt with my longbows.

From: Michael
01-Dec-23
My first year of hunting I used my dad’s recurve. That year my parents bought me my first bow (a compound) for Christmas. This would have been in the mid 80’s. Using a compound is all I have ever really known.

. Back then I grew to love bow hunting simply because there wasn’t a lot of people doing it and it was easier to gain access to land.

If there comes a day and I can’t draw a bow I will pick up a crossbow.

I still think crossbows in the Midwest anyway should have been limited to those that can’t draw adequate weight to hunt with

02-Dec-23

“However how many archers loose out on obtaining a tag because a crossbow user bought a tag[?]”

“Before tags were limited in Nebraska the amount of pressure the public’s lands seen skyrocketed.”

“Back then I grew to love bow hunting simply because there wasn’t a lot of people doing it and it was easier to gain access to land.”

So now the Compound shooters are seeing the same problem that long-time single-string shooters have been talking about for 30 years, but when it’s Compound vs Crossbow, it’s somehow a whole other argument???

Separate item: “When it comes to public lands in Nebraska. It is ranked 48th for total public land acres. “

Lies, Damn Lies, And Statistics, dude….

True, the data I found say that NE is 97.2% private vs 93.8% in CT.

But NE is 77.8k square miles. CT is a hair over 5,000. NE has 1.9M people; CT has 3.6.

So that’s (round figures) 2100 sq mi of Public vs 311, so 7X the acres for a little over half as many people. And we haven’t even considered what % of the Public (OR Private) land is at all open to hunting of any kind…

So, Grand Scheme— Even if 3 times as many people are hunting (percentage-wise)… you’ve got some real blessings to count.

From: Jaquomo
02-Dec-23
Mapleton, I regrettably had to switch to a compound after more than 50 years of shooting longbows and recurves almost every day wore out my right shoulder. Now I am limited on draw weight with a compound but can still hunt with it, even though my practice is limited to about 10 shots, some days less. And I hunt the same exact way I always did. And I'm not "ashamed", lol!

02-Dec-23
"Mapleton, I regrettably had to switch to a compound after more than 50 years of shooting longbows and recurves almost every day wore out my right shoulder. Now I am limited on draw weight with a compound but can still hunt with it, even though my practice is limited to about 10 shots, some days less. And I hunt the same exact way I always did. And I'm not "ashamed", lol!"

id be willing to bet the same is true for those that switched from compound to crossbow.

sure...you got people on youtube shooting 70 and 80 yards...and we all "know a guy" that claims to have shot one at 100 yards but you have that with comounders too. at the end of the day whether its a compound or crossbow its still a 40 yard and closer game...often much closer...for 95% of the hunters out there.

From: BR
02-Dec-23

From: Michael
02-Dec-23
Corax, I might be a selfish hunter but I am no damn liar.

02-Dec-23
Not my fault you don’t know one of the most famous quotes EVER…

I didn’t call you a liar. But you did make a wildly inaccurate assertion. If you want to make a claim based on data, you have to make it in such a way that you can’t be blown out of the water so easily…..

03-Dec-23
" NGPC has came out and said that when harvest is down they will reduce tags. When harvest is up they will increase tags. On its face that sounds like sound management practices."

that sounds like the opposite of sound management practices to me. seems to me when harvest is down they would increase tags...and when harvest is up, they would reduce tags.

From: Thornton
03-Dec-23
Crossbows for kids, elderly, and disabled. For decades in Kansas, it was disabilities only. Now we have every guy and his cousin traipsing around thinking they have a short range rifle that shoots arrows and our deer wounding rate has skyrocketed.

From: csalem
03-Dec-23
Thornton

What are the wounding rates on crossbows, compounds, longbows, recurves, rifles in Kansas. I had no idea that those statistics even existed How are those numbers collected? Do Kansas hunters have to fill out a form or call in post hunt

From: Jaquomo
03-Dec-23
"id be willing to bet the same is true for those that switched from compound to crossbow."

Show me one crossbow hunter who did 8 months of PT-rehab in order to be able to cock and pull the trigger on a crossbow, and I'll concede your point.

The act of drawing, anchoring, and releasing an accurate arrow from a bow when the animal is in range, vs. simply putting crosshairs on the animal, resting on shooting sticks, and squeezing a trigger. That is the difference. A crossbow is simply a short range rifle. Not "archery".

From: Michael
03-Dec-23

Michael's Link
Corax, I didn’t make any wildly inaccurate anything. According to this website Ne is ranked 48th for public land acres. This website is the why I made the statement I made.

03-Dec-23
"Show me one crossbow hunter who did 8 months of PT-rehab in order to be able to cock and pull the trigger on a crossbow, and I'll concede your point."

apparently the point i was trying to make went right over your head. i was referring to how people hunt, not what brought them to weapon they chose. thats why i underlined the portion i did.

"And I hunt the same exact way I always did.

i still maintain that "at the end of the day whether its a compound or crossbow its still a 40 yard and closer game...often much closer...for 95% of the hunters out there."

guys who insist on ethical shots do so regardless of the weapon in their hands. guys who take "hail mary" shots do the same...whether they have a traditional bow...a compound...a crossbow...or a rifle in their hand.

the fact that you did pt fo 8 months is great...but completely irrelevant to the point i was making.

From: Jaquomo
03-Dec-23

Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Jaquomo's embedded Photo
I get it. You have no problem with someone hunting during archery season with a .300 Win Mag if they limit their shots to 40 yards or under.

You missed the point I was trying to make - that a crossbow is not archery, and doesnt require even a fraction of the effort to operate compared to a compound. "Ethics" and "capability" are entirely unrelated concepts. Crossbows are marketed as "100 yard" weapons. How many crossbow shooters with so-called "bad shoulders" are willing to put in the effort to get treatment, do PT or have surgery to recover and shoot a hand-drawn bow? They don't, because a crossbow is faster, easier, and supremely accurate.

The only thing a crossbow has in common with a bow, compared to a rifle, is that the crossbow projectile is made of carbon and steel instead of lead and copper. And the idea that scoped crossbows with 100 yard trajectory compensating reticles shooting a bolt 400 fps are 40 yard weapons is a reach.

I have no problem whatsoever with someone using a crossbow during firearms season. I just don't want them further crowding public land and competing with bowhunters for archery tags, and pretending it is "bowhunting".

03-Dec-23
"I get it. You have no problem with someone hunting during archery season with a .300 Win Mag if they limit their shots to 40 yards or under."

no...you most certainly dont "get it." thats obvious.

that makes as much sense as saying you have no problem with the elderly and disabled using a .300 win mag during bow season.

what part of the difference between the way a firearm propels a bullet and the way a bow propels and arrow dont you get?

if a crossbow meets the definition of a "bow" when it comes to the elderly and the handicapped it meets the definition of a "bow"...period.

you cant have it both ways.

"The only thing a crossbow has in common with a bow, compared to a rifle, is that the crossbow projectile is made of carbon and steel instead of lead and copper."

...and that whole thing about bent limbs and a string propelling an arrow...and an explosion propelling a bullet....and the fact that one projectile is traveling at 300-400 fps and the other is traveling at 2500-3000 fps...and one kills by hemorrage and the other kills by shock. yeah...other that that theyre exactly the same. lol

03-Dec-23

by the way...modern compound bows are more than capable of killing deer at 100 yards...just like a crossbow.

From: Glunt@work
03-Dec-23
Sadly, I wouldn't even support crossbows for those unable to shoot a bow if we could do it over.

Of course it wouldn't bother me if a disabled person used a crossbow or to be honest, a 300 win mag if truly disabled.

The problem is the "disabled" part was abused but ends up a moot point because the big impact is that it was/is just a stepping stone to full inclusion.

Crossbows don't usually equal more success, just easier access to what was bow season. They are very different weapons. Yes, there are people who can be effective at 100 yards with a compound. Guess what guys dedicated like that could accomplish with a crossbow? But, the capability of a crossbow isn't the issue since most users aren't approaching it that way. It is simply the ease of access to bow season that is damaging bowhunting. That's the similarity to a 300 win mag that matters.

03-Dec-23
I am a 100% committed Traditional shooter, and have heard this type of opinion expressed in one way or another at every stage of new technology introduction over the last 30 years. Hunting is not and never again will be what it was. However, his analogy is just ridiculous and for attention grabbing only. It serves no purpose except to be inflammatory, click-bait ,and a distraction from any useful discussion. Garbage.

From: PECO2
03-Dec-23
That was funny.

From: Catscratch
03-Dec-23
Man, I fought them tooth n nail to not be used for age, injury, or disability. I was basically told I was a monster for my views but I said just wait and see... it'll turn into a stepping stone for full inclusion. When asked what I'll do when I'm too old and beat up to pull a string back I said I'll do something else, or quit altogether. At some point I'll age out of driving, hunting, running, sex, and maybe even not needing a diaper. Facts of life if you live long enough. I also fought tooth n nail to keep from full inclusion in KS. Emails, letters, and phone calls. I didn't have enough grease in the pocketbook to have any influence, but I tried. They are here to stay now, another fact of life.

03-Dec-23
Is it just me, or is there just a shred of irony in Ricky’s advocacy regarding crossbows, given the fact that he has doggedly maintained his thread on trans women athletes at the top of the page for coming up on 2 months?

03-Dec-23
"Is it just me, or is there just a shred of irony in Ricky’s advocacy regarding crossbows, given the fact that he has doggedly maintained his thread on trans women athletes at the top of the page for coming up on 2 months?"

no irony at all.

first of all...the two conversations are not related in any way. most peoples brains are capable of contemplating a variety of different topics concurrently.

second...ive never advocated for crossbows...im just not threatened by them. ive never hunted with one...and god willing i will never need to.

From: Thornton
03-Dec-23
Crossbows for disabilities and kids. For decades in Kansas, they were reserved for disability with a doctor's note. Now every guy and his cousin has one and our cripple rate is skyrocketing because they use them as if they have a rifle that shoots arrows.

From: Jethro
03-Dec-23
How does KS track cripple rate?

From: RK
03-Dec-23
Thornton.

Stats on the cripple rate? Where are those recorded

Yea I know I kill stray dogs

Stay on topic

04-Dec-23
with all this talk about such high wounding rates with crossbows...wouldnt that suggest that they might not be the 100 yard...learn in an afternoon...slam dunk arrow guns that some people claim they are?

From: Mapleman
04-Dec-23
Giacamo, absolutely nothing to be ashamed of shooting a compound. Wasn't my intention to look down on compound shooters, hope I didn't come off that way. Seems the reason people use compound over recurve/longbow is because they are easier? Any other reason? Personally, I would have preferred NY keep crossbows out of bow season, for my own selfish reasons. They made them legal, I'm not gonna complain about it, I'm gonna go bowhunt like I have for the past 35 years.

From: Catscratch
04-Dec-23
This is my 36th bowseason in KS. I've always kept a close tab on the local bowhunting community (I was the annoying little kid who rode his bike to the local bowshop to hang around and listen to the old guys talk about their adventures. They couldn't keep me out of their hair until I was old enough to legally hunt on my own). I know of no KS data kept for wounding rates. From living the life I'd say wounding has gone down quite a bit locally. Of course many trends have changed; the 20yd "pie plate" chip shot has stretched to a 40yd "skoal can" chip shot, and the 35yd "edge of my range" has turned to 60. And to be honest I believe these young men are shooting 60 better than the old timers were shooting 30. Broadheads have a very small margin of error, always have so wounding is going to happen more than with bullets. I however do hear of wounding much less now than I did in the old days. I think people take bowhunting much more seriously now, spend more money, take more vacation time, study it more, practice more, and plain-n-simply are more invested. With that said with the advent of facebook pages dedicated to tracking dogs, people advertising drone recoveries, a huge surge in forum and youtube use, I'd say the average wounded deer is MUCH more widely known about than just 10 short years ago. Just my perspective though, no proof.

From: Catscratch
04-Dec-23
Timex, when we spent a couple of weeks in Virginia every deer I saw was tiny. They looked like little goats in the ditches. Does that hold true for most of the state, or is that just a location thing (I was mostly around cities)? How much does your average doe weigh?

04-Dec-23
"Just my brief experience was a gun hunter with no bow hunting experience, no close range yardage estimating skills, & thinking he could shoot deer in the shoulder with the string gun."

so are you saying its a hunter failure and not the fault of the weapon? if so i agree. .

it only stands to reason that if more people are using crossbows overall...there are going to be more deer wounded with crossbows. its a simple mathematic equation. for example 5% of 100k is a lot more than 5% of 50k.

more deer are wounded with rifles than bows every year...by far.

From: Mapleman
04-Dec-23
I am also fortunate to have a couple hundred private acres to hunt on close to home for whitetails. The deer hunting, locally, is as good, better than it ever has been.

From: Catscratch
04-Dec-23
Holy moly that's a big buck! So the one's I were seeing are probably young of the year as they didn't compare to what you are showing. That piebald is cool!

I believe a compounder can pick up a crossbow and be proficient in a very short amount of time, a complete newbie is going to take much less time to learn the crossbow than the compound, and most rifle hunters are completely disappointed after buying a crossbow and hunting 2 seasons with it (I've known this to happen many times. Their crossbow ends up on craigslist... much like their treadmill.).

04-Dec-23
Glad your big properties in other states aren't effected by crossbow hunters. Here in WV I said the crossbow kill would surpass the archery kill in 5 years of legalization, I was wrong it only took 3.There is rumblings of shortening the WHOLE archery season because it is honing in on the firearms kill . You bunch of include everybody fanatics better wake up!

04-Dec-23
"Ricky .......I believe a competent successful vertical bow hunter will be even more deadly with an xbow."

not sure what you mean by "more deadly" as dead is dead...but i think youre making my point. "a competent successful vertical bow hunter" is going to stay within his capabilities...no matter what weapon he is using.

thats why i said earlier that 95% of the people who switched from compound to crossbow arent flinging arrows at deer at 100 yards. They are hunting the same way they did...and at the same ranges...they did with a compound.

the notion that if you put a crossbow in a competent...ethical...bowhunters hands hes all of a sudden going to become a different kind of hunter is foolish.

there are incompetent idiots carrying all kinds of bows...traditional...compound...and crossbow. thats just the reality of the situation.

From: Groundhunter
04-Dec-23
WIS has kept good stats since full inclusion 10 years ago. As of 2022 ending, we have lost participants in archery season. We are not gaining on hunters. That shows me simply, that many compound shooters have gone xbow, or use both. Gun hunters still take 70 percent of total kill. Xbow hunters 16 percent. Vertical bows 14 percent. That was the last 10 year average. Now this year, xbows have increased their kill numbers, yet license sales have declined. In some areas, archery has been extended till Jan 31. In my life time, at 74, I never had so much time to bow hunt, if I want.

From: Live2Hunt
04-Dec-23
"there are incompetent idiots carrying all kinds of bows...traditional...compound...and crossbow. thats just the reality of the situation." Yes, but the ease of use of an xgun, and being shot like a gun, has brought more of these people out. Those that could not do a bow jumped on the xgun because it is, to them, a gun.

From: Bowbender
04-Dec-23

Bowbender's Link
And rest assured Jack, any shortening of the season will not be on the front end of the season. Our buck kill in PA's archery season as basically doubled since xbows were legalized in 2009. We've added about ~70K "bowhunters" in that time frame and it's estimated that 65-70% of the bow kill is from xbows. PGC's digital license history and harvest reports only go back to 2009/10. Total archery license sales in 2008, if memory serves, was ~225,000.

License year 2008-2009 (~225,000 archery licenses) archery buck kill: 31,550 or 25% of total harvest. Approximately 14% of bowhunters filled their buck tag.

License year 2009-2010 (277,600 archery licenses) archery buck kill: 33,400 or 31% of total buck kill. Approximately 12% of bowhunters filled their buck tag.

License year 2022-2023 (336,000 archery licenses) archery buck kill: 75,700 or 46% of total buck kill. Approximately 23% of bowhunters filled their buck tag.

Ya, xbows are exactly like compounds.

From: Groundhunter
04-Dec-23
My wife did a sister trip to Maine this fall, and they visited PA. She said there are ALOT of people out there. Never realized that.

04-Dec-23

Ricky The Cabel Guy's Link
"License year 2008-2009 (~225,000 archery licenses) archery buck kill: 31,550 or 25% of total harvest. Approximately 14% of bowhunters filled their buck tag.

License year 2009-2010 (277,600 archery licenses) archery buck kill: 33,400 or 31% of total buck kill. Approximately 12% of bowhunters filled their buck tag.

License year 2022-2023 (336,000 archery licenses) archery buck kill: 75,700 or 46% of total buck kill. Approximately 23% of bowhunters filled their buck tag.

Ya, xbows are exactly like compounds"

raw numbers might not tell the whole story. they are meaningless unless and until you apply them to what the game department wants to accomplish.

according to the attached link...more deer were killed in pa in 2000 than in 2022 (504k vs 435k). point being...if the hunters still arent killing as many deer as the game managers want killed...the weapon breakdown isnt that important.

From: KHNC
04-Dec-23
Haha! Tons of whining in this thread. With a FEW well thought out responses. Personally ive killed a pile of deer with a bow, a large amount with a rifle, and a few with a x-bow. I just take whatever the hell weapon I get the urge to hunt with that day. All are legal in SC where i hunt mostly. And its rifle season from 08/15-1/01 in a lot of the state. Very short bow season in other areas. So most of the deer i kill with a bow or xbow are during gun season. And i dont give a damn what don higgns or any other hunting beasts think about how i hunt or have hunted. Hell, My factory Bowtech contract once stated I wasnt "allowed" to hunt with a xbow due to it not being considered fair chase during archery. Then they turned around and bought Excalibur, and asked the team to promote them. The irony.

From: scentman
04-Dec-23
If you have the time gents check out the NYS thread... some good opinions on this subject. scentman

From: Mapleman
04-Dec-23
Bowbender, in Pennsylvania can a hunter shoot 2 bucks, 1 with bow and 1 with gun or just 1 total for the year. Also it would be interesting to see the success rate and numbers of recurve/longbow vs compound.

From: Bowbender
04-Dec-23
"according to the attached link...more deer were killed in pa in 2000 than in 2022"

Instead of trying to be the smartest guy in the room, howzabout listening to those of us that actually LIVE and HUNT in PA. In 2002 point restrictions were implemented. The total buck kill dropped significantly. From roughly ~170K to a little over ~100K. It has been steadly increasing and the archery harvest is now just a few percentage points lower than the buck kill. Also, total number of hunters has dropped from roughly 1.1 million to ~840,000. Number of reasons for that.

Herd management was not why xbows were implemented. $$'s were. As early as 2006, UBP was told by members of the PGC board & PA state legislature that xbows were a done. THAT was after extensive lobbying from the xbow industry. PA has(had) the largest (market) number of archery hunters. You can continue your side step, bravo sierra, whatever you want to call it, if xbows were the same as compounds we would have seen proportional increase in the buck harvest. That was not the case.

Mapleman, one buck per license year, regardless of weapon. Two (or more depending on WMU) doe. Not weapon dependent.

I'll turn this back over to the smartest guy on the Bowsite.

From: Bowbender
04-Dec-23
"Wonder how the flintlock boys feel about that."

Ever since in-lines came on the scene, PA flintlockers (myself included) have fought to keep our late season (2-1/2 weeks starting 12/26) in-line free. Aside from the special regs areas, we've been successful. And yeah we here the whining that their scoped (shooting MOA) single shot rifles are the same as a flintlock cuz, well, it loads from the front.

From: Live2Hunt
04-Dec-23
This is not the same as black powder guns at all. They both shoot the same way, load the same, use the same powder, one shot, and are a gun type weapon. I used a hawkens for years in WI and killed a lot of deer with it. Unfortunately I cannot see the open sights anymore to shoot at all accurate and had to go to a scoped inline. But, I killed more deer with that Hawkens than I have with my inline. Yes, they go off better than a flint or percussion cap, but they are the same animal. Xguns and bows are not, at all. They do not operate the same or shoot the same. BTW, if I can ever get to shoot that hawkens accurate again, I sure will.

04-Dec-23
Amazing how hunters can justify anything they do.

From: Live2Hunt
04-Dec-23
Not able to see sights on a gun and wounding animals is pretty good justification!!!!!

04-Dec-23
"You can continue your side step, bravo sierra, whatever you want to call it, if xbows were the same as compounds we would have seen proportional increase in the buck harvest. That was not the case."

it would only truly be "proportional" if successful crossbow hunters only came from the successful compound hunter ranks. thats not the case. many first time bowhunters are choosing to start with crossbows. some will cross over and go back and forth...even within the same season. same is true for compound and traditional bows. its never as easy as the figures on a page tend to suggest.

lets assume you are right and crossbows are so much easier to be successful with than compounds. and even with them being legal...not enough deer are being taken in many areas. had they not become legal...do you think that would have helped or hurt management goals?

youre right, i dont hunt in pa but i have bow hunted in mi for close to 50 years and our deer hunting numbers as well as our bowhunting heritage...passions...challenges...and regulations are about as close as they are going to get. pa isnt that unique.

its not about being the smartest guy in the room...its about being willing to question conventional wisdom...even our own.

being a traditional only bowhunter...10-15 years ago i despised even the thought of crossbows being allowed in archery season...for all the reasons people are stating now. now that they are here...i dont see where they affect my bowhunting experience in any way.

From: Bowbender
04-Dec-23
Just can’t help yourself can you, Ricky?

I don’t need to assume anything. The data is right there. While we had what, a 30-40% increase in bowhunters, we’ve doubled the buck harvest in the same time period. Prior to 2009 the archery buck kill was in the low to mid 30,000 range. It’s doubled.

Whatever dude, you still wanna come across as the smartest guy in the room. Carry on.

From: Live2Hunt
04-Dec-23
Timex? I have heard that also. Sometimes I get a wild hair and look for one but the ones available for a TC Hawkens are spendy. I will get one at one point, loved shooting that thing. Built it years ago from one of there kits. At one point at 60 yards with patch and ball you could lay one right on top of the other with it.

From: Bowbender
04-Dec-23
No, it's not a different situation. My CVA inline (bought for our special regs area) shoots Triple 7 (not Goex or equal), a Hornady 245gr sabot, topped with a Bushnell 3x9, primed with #209 primers. Has never, ever, never ever failed to fire. And will shoot MOA out to 200 yards. The ONLY thing it has in common with my T/C Renegade and CVA Mountain rifle is that it loads from the front. The inline is basically a single shot 200 yard rifle. The .50 caliber flintlocks, open sights, 80gr 2F, 4F in the pan, in my hands, not even half that.

The xbow is a shoulder mounted, TRIPOD SECURED weapon. Ya, it shoots a broadhead tipped arrow. THAT'S where any similarities end.

From: Bowbender
04-Dec-23

Bowbender's embedded Photo
Bowbender's embedded Photo
Actually it's not raw numbers. It's data. Hard data. I just can't understand it for you.

You have zero intention of being curious. Zero. Hence your desire to have the last word evidenced by the trans-swimmer thread. So here ya go. Prove me wrong. Got a Grant riding I'm right.

04-Dec-23
youre right...it is data...but its not all the data.

is the increase in buck harvest sustainable? are your buck numbers plummeting with the increase of bow hunters?

talk about "side step bravo sierra..."

can you show me where ive ever said "theres no difference between xbows and compounds?"

its statements like this that make everything you say suspect. either you arent capable of comprehending what someone actually says...or you have no problem lying in order to make a point. take your pick...

From: Bowbender
04-Dec-23
Easy. Money.

I do comprehend. Quite well thank you. And I have zero need to lie to prove a point. None. Especially to a full blown narcissist that has some deep rooted need to bloviate and convince everyone he’s da big brain.

You’re not curious. At all. Just argumentative. As most threads show. Now if you’ll excuse me, this automation engineer needs to sort thru some hi speed vision data. If I need help, at least I know where to seek help.

04-Dec-23
“But on the same thought, I know very few that can hit a pie plate consistently with a rifle offhand either.”

I was gonna say… LOL

That has certainly been my impression at the ranges here, but at least they do permit you to shoot off-hand. I’ve been to a few ranges which would not allow off-hand shooting at all.

“BTW, if I can ever get to shoot that hawkens accurate again, I sure will.”

Try a ghost ring, and (perish the thought!!) you might need a fiber-optic front…. I have seen tall, buckhorn sights reshaped as ghost rings…

But let’s not oversimplify… There are “muzzleloaders” which use what is essentially a .410 blank shotshell and only the (saboted) bullet loads from the front. There are smokeless “muzzleloaders” which are the ballistic equivalent of bottle-necked centerfire cartridges. And scopes over 1X are a game-changer, conferring literally superhuman vision…. The CO MLA has fought hard to preserve the original intention of the season since there was fiery debate over whether TC “Hawken” rifles were sufficiently period-correct to be authorized for use…. As things stand, with loose powder and a full-bore projectile, an inline is still hideous… but it’s essentially the functional/ballistic equivalent of a period-correct or even an original conical-shooting caplock from the end of the ML era….

You can’t say that about a scoped “bow” which is so heavy that people use force- multiplying pulley systems or hand-cranked (or even electric) winches to draw the damn things….

Sure, they’re the same.

05-Dec-23
"I do comprehend. Quite well thank you. And I have zero need to lie to prove a point. None"

then why do you (and others) accuse people of saying things they never said? such as...

"theres no difference between xbows and compounds?""

or why do you continue to side step legitimate questions" such as...

"is the increase in buck harvest...that you suggest is due to crossbows... sustainable?"

"are your buck numbers plummeting with the increase of crossbow hunters?"

05-Dec-23
"...force- multiplying pulley systems"

can you think of any other weapons that utilize this technology in order to draw and hold them at full draw? :)

From: Mapleman
05-Dec-23
I believe there was a meme posted and deleted earlier depicting crossbow shooters as homosexuals, very amusing, I love me a good meme. Maybe it was a different thread, my apologies, if so. I ask again, could the crossbow hating compound shooters please list reasons they shoot a compound over a recurve/longbow? There was a few who answered, but not many.

From: Live2Hunt
05-Dec-23
I can say why I do not shoot a compound anymore and shoot a recurve. Cost of components, sights amplified my Target Panic, seeing fuzzy double pins with bad eye's, and pissed about the full inclusion of xguns. Black Powder?, funny I bought my inline around 8 years ago and killed 2 deer. My Hawkins I have around 30 deer killed, so the inline reduced my capability's of killing deer. Ghost ring? I will have to check in on that. Fiber optic front on a Hawkens? Would that be like me wearing pink high heels?

From: SteveB
05-Dec-23
No issue with crossbows any more than rifles. Just not sure they should be included in a regular archery season, or at least maybe not permitted as long a season as upright bows. I rarely ever pick up a gun because I just don't enjoy it as much. I am very glad though that rifle and crossbow hunters increase involvement in the sport.

From: HunterR
05-Dec-23
Just a quick correction, there was no "full inclusion" of crossbows in Wisconsin. The whiny jealous types that were worried their neighbor might shoot their buck and the whiny jealous types that couldn't fathom the thought of needing to share the public hunting lands with others whined loud enough that a separate season was made just for crossbows, tracked separately and everything, the whiners were very proud of this accomplishment. The newly invented crossbow season just so happened to share the same opening and closing dates as the archery season. Personally I was one of many that thought it being separate was pointless and just a waste of time for it to be tracked separately. Well I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong, and I was sure wrong about that. What tracking the crossbow season deer harvest separately has done is proven year after year that even with the crossbow deer kill and even though it has surpassed the vertical bow kill (much like compounds did when they 1st came out) the OVERALL deer kill is really not much higher than it was previous to the crossbow season, which, in turn, means no reason to shorten the crossbow season, or, really, any deer seasons in WI since most counties are still over goal. Happy Hunting to All!!!

05-Dec-23
“can you think of any other weapons that utilize this technology in order to draw and hold them at full draw? ”

Not that you’ll find in my house, no…..

If you’re expecting me to leap to the defense of compounds, you’re even more clueless than I thought….. but there’s a difference between let-off and force multiplication. And if you want to argue that, you’ll have to do do having conceded that the holding weight of a #40, 85% let-off compound is literally INFINITELY higher than that of a crossbow.

And last time I checked, compounds hitting in excess of #200 were kinda hard to come by. Interesting that most of the crossbows in my Lancaster catalog don’t even LIST a draw weight…. Kinda makes a guy wonder what they’re hiding from whom…

From: Deets
05-Dec-23
Doesn't matter it's all basically a generic deer season anymore.

06-Dec-23
"What tracking the crossbow season deer harvest separately has done is proven year after year that even with the crossbow deer kill and even though it has surpassed the vertical bow kill (much like compounds did when they 1st came out) the OVERALL deer kill is really not much higher than it was previous to the crossbow season, which, in turn, means no reason to shorten the crossbow season, or, really, any deer seasons in WI since most counties are still over goal. "

for the most part...same is true here in michigan. despite added seasons...added weapons...expanded ages...expanded bag limit...etc....over all deer harvest has remained about the same over the last couple decades...if anything it has has fallen. overall hunter numbers have fallen in virtually every category.

as i said before...the raw numbers dont show everything (they tend to show the "what" but not the "why")...but they do show that many of the original fears of crossbow inclusion have not come to pass.

06-Dec-23

Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo

Ricky The Cabel Guy's Link

From: Live2Hunt
06-Dec-23
I see HunterR is here saying the same old thing of what he thinks only about, killing a deer. So, that is what he thinks all of us think hunting is about, killing a deer. Same old same old, Someone is going to kill my buck!!! Get off it HunterR, that is not what hunting is all about. Turn your property into a game farm and shoot them with any weapon you choose if all you think about is killing an animal.

From: Jack Harris
06-Dec-23
I completely forgot I started this..... Sorry? Not sorry? Gotta respond to Missouribreaks -

"Do not limit yourselves to the eastern whitetail mentality. There is a much greater picture than the diseased, overpopulated whitetail herd found in much of the east. Much greater."

Diseased? Other than some EHD outbreaks from time to time, i believe far less diseased deer in the East, as there is little to no CWD as seen in the West. What disease are you referring to?

From what I see, the deer in NJ are extremely healthy both sexes, and there are good genetics here to grow record size bucks with ease. What we lack is hunter restraint on young bucks and let them get some age on them.... That problem exists in most eastern states. (if one of your stated goals is to take a mature animal with bow).

06-Dec-23
I was referring to core CWD zones which are typically overpopulated as far as game managers are concerned. I hunt in several and game managers provide us virtually unlimited doe tags. Weapon of choice is a non factor under this scenario. I do not feel the same with mule deer where the species overall range and population has been on decline for many years, and is a concern. Mule deer in most areas are far easier to kill than whitetail. Just my opinion.

From: Jack Harris
06-Dec-23
Missouribreaks - not aware of any CWD zones in the East. Perhaps I've missed that or not up to date, hence why I questioned it. I know we try to prevent it from entering the state, by banning transportation of deer from western states across state lines unless all bones and brain matter removed...(Meat only, skull capped rack, and hide)

06-Dec-23
Much of lower Minnesota, Michigan and Wisconsin are listed as core CWD zones. Deer populations, especially in farm country with no winter kill are virtually impossible to control. This is a general statement and not meant to be true in all cases. Over population is of course a subjective phrase. Game managers commonly feel differently than hunters.

For several reasons, I hope scoped crossbows do not expand in the west.

From: HunterR
07-Dec-23
Live2hunt I am not only about the kill, I'm about the hunt which is why many years I do not fill my buck tag and usually when I do it's late in the season because I do not want the hunt to end. I think many people that hunt do it for the hunt and not only the kill. But when it comes to the jealous whiny crossbow hunter haters, I think the crossbow hunter hate is based on one of two things; yes the concern that someone will shoot their buck OR they can't stand sharing the public lands with other hunters and can't figure out how to do that and still get it done. I'd guess you're in that 2nd camp; can't stand sharing the public lands with others, can't figure out how to do it and still be successful, and I think you will always find something or someone else to blame. A person doesn't need to search too hard to find that many hunters are still having success in a lot of the same counties you whine have no deer, and a lot of those deer are coming from public lands. How can you ignore that year after year? Check out facebook and ask any of the multiple hunters that still see and harvest deer on the same lands you cry have no deer how they do it. I hunt both public and private lands and have been for years, what I've learned about the public land is that with the additional hunting pressure a guy might need to work a bit harder than he did in the past. When you say things like "unhuntable deer population" and "aint no deer" or "devoid of deer" that just is not true. Not to mention it does not make sense why a guy would keep going to an area that "aint got no deer" to deer hunt year after year if all he’s going to do is complain.

From: Slate
07-Dec-23

Slate's embedded Photo
Slate's embedded Photo

From: Live2Hunt
07-Dec-23
HunterR, again, Area? try 5 county's worth of areas, I suppose I could move out of state. Here is what I care about. Bow hunting was started for people who wanted to use a bow and arrow setup, that was drawn and shot, and took skill to hunt/shoot/kill with. BOW HUNTERS were ones who shot these setups effective enough to kill animals, some better than others. Some did not want to put the effort in to shoot a bow and arrow for archery season so they whined to the doctor to get a xgun permit or just gun hunted. I wanted to be an archer and hunt the archery season and continue to be an archer and promote archery for the archery season, does that sink in. Don't care if someone shoots my buck, because I don't hunt target bucks. I don't care if someone is in my spot because I have 100's to choose from. I do care that gun type weapons are used during the breeding period for whitetail deer. I don't give a rats ass about private land, but I do about public forests. I do care about the issues that caused the depletion and the no rebuilding of these public forests.

From: HunterR
07-Dec-23
Live2hunt so 5 counties have no deer or have an unhuntable population? Do you ever look at facebook or other hunting forums? People are harvesting deer from every single county in Wisconsin and that includes public land in those counties so I'm not sure why you'd need to go out of state to find a deer. If there really are almost no deer in those counties why are you hunting them? Is there a prize for the person who shoots the last one? Why would you try to kill a deer in an area you say has almost no deer? Will that help with your perceived "no deer" situation? The crossbow season which is separate from the bow season has not ruined anything, most hunters are still having success harvesting deer some with crossbows during crossbow season and some with vertical bows during the traditional bow season. As far as the issues that might be contributing to less deer I think you know as well as I do it is not crossbows and imo it's not even the amount of antlerless tags given out by the DNR, but rather assuming there really is an issue (up for debate) it's because of the wolf population. Wolves don't use crossbows, let that sink in.

From: Live2Hunt
07-Dec-23
Never said the xguns are the issue with deer population, quit adding stuff. Why hunt those county's? Well, those are around where I live and own a cabin. Come off your private land and see, ask others that hunt public. Go to Xgun nation where you belong, this is a BOWSITE, started for BOWHUNTERS that us a BOW.

From: HunterR
07-Dec-23
live2hunt you've never said crossbows are the issue with the deer population? Apparently in addition to your struggles to hunt and find a deer to shoot you also suffer from memory issues. I just said that I hunt both public and private, is there also a reading comprehension problem? It's a public forum live2hunt, unfortunately you can't make people leave just because you can't handle what they say. Also, I deer hunt with a compound, a gun, and a crossbow, depending on the season and what I choose to use that day. If there's a forum for whiners that blame all their problems on something or someone else you should check it out I bet you'd fit right in.

From: Glunt@work
07-Dec-23
Bow season is great. Who wouldn't want to be able to hunt during it? I understand people who think its great to hunt during bow season without having to use a bow.

It would be better for bowhunting and bow hunters if it were limited to bows but that's no longer the case. I do hope that folks have some line in weapon technology that they think is too far.

For me and my personal approach, that line is well behind modern compounds. The stuff that's hard about bowhunting is the key to the stuff that makes bow hunting and bow seasons great. Be careful when constantly chipping away at the foundation of your house.

From: Live2Hunt
07-Dec-23
HunterR, I said one of, or a contributing factor, not the soul factor. The main factor is wolves not allowing the populations to rebound. Use an xgun if you want, hunt your private land, but you take a deer for the kill with your xgun don't say you got it bowhunting because you were not bowhunting.

From: APauls
07-Dec-23
What's the difference between a gun that shoots an arrow out the front and a crossbow? Basically the crossbow is quieter lol. It's a gun.

From: Mapleman
07-Dec-23
Can the compound shooting crossbow haters please explain the reasons they shoot a compound over a recurve/longbow? Without sidestepping and comparing how compounds and crossbows are drawn differently. 'Go to Xgun nation where you belong, this is a BOWSITE, started for BOWHUNTERS that us a BOW.' Umm, this thread about crossbow hating was not started by a crossbow user.

From: Live2Hunt
07-Dec-23
As discussions of a topic typically go, they expand. The individual that is going against the original topic of the thread was on the Wisconsin site doing the same thing about xguns. Have not seen him on there in awhile.

From: Live2Hunt
07-Dec-23
Why did I go to a compound from a recurve when I was younger? Still shooting a bow, had to practice, tune, etc like a bow to be proficient and yes, ease of use. Why did I go from a compound back to a recurve? Love of shooting a bow, the challenge, nicer to look at and carry in the woods, the satisfaction of effort put in for the gain when successful.

From: Mint
07-Dec-23
I think crossbows are pretty cool but I don't consider them archery equipment. This year i was on an antelope hunt. Out of 14 hunters two of them were able to shoot antelope walking by the blinds between 45 and 55 yards since none came in to water since it was everywhere. Both were crossbow hunters. I think they are a useful tool and should be used as such but i don't think they should take over the bow season.

From: Mapleman
07-Dec-23
Thanks Live2, I agree, much nicer to carry a compound in the woods.

From: Live2Hunt
07-Dec-23
Maple, "much nicer to carry a compound in the woods." You mean a recurve?

From: HunterR
07-Dec-23
Live2hunt I do not post or for that matter even read the wisconsin forum any longer because it has turned into a forum where a dozen or so guys do nothing but bitch about how others hunt, those people (you included) are worse for the future of hunting that actual antis and peta folks. In all honesty when I was reading that forum it seemed like I was stepping into a nursing home where everyone there had previously caught their wives cheating with a crossbow user, and the nursing home had ran out of anti-depressants 2 weeks ago. Nothing but negativity and whining "get off my lawn." But thank you for your permission to use my crossbow, but you need to know I don't only use it on private land, I use it on public lands also.

As far as crossbows being "archery" call it whatever you want it's all about semantics, I use mine during the crossbow season and that's what I call it, a crossbow being used during crossbow season, again, there was no full inclusion in Wisconsin. Every time I register a deer I'm asked whether I harvested it with a gun, a bow, or a crossbow. Clearly separate.

In regards to maple's question, I switched from a recurve to a compound many years ago because it was more accurate and I had less of a chance of wounding deer. Also, I have other things in my life that "make me a man" other than hoping I kill a deer without wounding too many with an archaic tool just to prove some stupid point at the expense of a suffering animal. I 100% agree with the above post where someone said 80% of the guys flinging arrows at deer with a recurve or longbow are not proficient enough to be doing it, I've seen the same thing more times than I care to admit.

From: WhattheFOC
07-Dec-23
You damned recurve guys took over our longbow season. LOL

IMO, there’s a pretty obvious place to draw the line when it comes to which weapons belong in bow season. Too bad I couldn’t be dictator - just for a day :)

From: Live2Hunt
07-Dec-23
HunterR, LOL you need to take your pill. Timex, for me, I will stop shooting my recurve till spring. Generally the only issues is muscles and joints getting used to shooting it. I can hit pretty good at starting. The big issue I had with my compound was the sights and target panic. I can pick one up right now and hit with it, but boy TP really shows its evil head. I can hit pretty good with a compound shooting instinctive, but come on, you have to admit, shooting a piece of art compared to a piece of metal/carbon fiber is a big difference. As far as Compound and Xgun, the mechanics of operation do not compare, especially at point of the shot on an animal.

From: Mapleman
07-Dec-23
Live2, yes, my mistake, a recurve would be even nicer to carry. I shoot a compound and a crossbow so that's the comparison I was making.

07-Dec-23
“I switched from a recurve to a compound many years ago because it was more accurate and I had less of a chance of wounding deer.“

No, you switched because YOU were more accurate WITH the compound, and rather than accepting your own limitations with the recurve, you found a way around them.

It’s not a Bow Thing; it’s a User Thing. And by and large it’s exactly the same proposition when a Compound shooter picks up a Crossbow for reasons other than significant physical limitations.

07-Dec-23
"No, you switched because YOU were more accurate WITH the compound, and rather than accepting your own limitations with the recurve, you found a way around them.

It’s not a Bow Thing; it’s a User Thing. And by and large it’s exactly the same proposition when a Compound shooter picks up a Crossbow for reasons other than significant physical limitations."

is that a bad thing? i happen to admire people who recognize their limitations and do the ethical thing within the law.

07-Dec-23
I have no issue whatsoever with people switching to a weapon with which they are more comfortable or capable.

That doesn’t automatically entitle them to participation in a season which was specifically set aside for the weapon which they abandoned.

In most states, Crossbows were specifically prohibited during Archery Seasons for good and sufficient reasons. Namely, the fact that crossbows are NOT Archery equipment as the term/concept was understood at the time.

And frankly, had the Compound existed in its current form at the time when Archery seasons were first carved out, I have trouble believing that the same people who rejected crossbows as “archery” would not likewise recognize that the Compound is a different animal entirely. Call me crazy.

08-Dec-23
"In most states, Crossbows were specifically prohibited during Archery Seasons for good and sufficient reasons. Namely, the fact that crossbows are NOT Archery equipment as the term/concept was understood at the time.

And frankly, had the Compound existed in its current form at the time when Archery seasons were first carved out, I have trouble believing that the same people who rejected crossbows as “archery” would not likewise recognize that the Compound is a different animal entirely. Call me crazy.

i dont think you are crazy...you are right.

there actually were people saying the same things about compounds that they are now saying about crossbows. actually...there are a lot of people who are still saying that...just spend some time over on the leatherwall and other traditional archery forums.

so are you saying that compounds...in their current form...should not be allowed in archery seasons either? or are you saying that thoughts change...weapons change...tactics change...hunters change...management needs and regulations change...and in spite of it all...bowhunting is a alive and well?

From: Live2Hunt
08-Dec-23
Compound, Recurve, longbow, a stick with string on it are all drawn and shot the same way, like a bow as how the seasons were set up and allowed. How does a xgun fit in? I'm sure you guys will soon join in on the gun bow just because it shoots some sort of shaft with a broadhead.

08-Dec-23
Bow and arrow hunting is not alive and well. Bowhunter numbers are on the decline and scoped and cocked crossbow bolt machine hunters are on the increase.

08-Dec-23
"I'm sure you guys will soon join in on the gun bow just because it shoots some sort of shaft with a broadhead."

personally, no. if youre referring to the air guns that shoot arrows...they dont meet the definition of a bow.

bow. a weapon for shooting arrows, typically made of a curved piece of wood whose ends are joined by a taut string.

like it or not...even the most hi-tech crossbow meet that definition.

From: xtroutx
08-Dec-23
I could have shot 2 nice mature bucks this year if I used a x bow. Absolutely no doubt. I was a little depressed missing one of them, and did not take the shot at the second one. My sons (which are both bow hunters) said maybe its time to look into a x bow. I looked at them funny and they both just laughed. I truly enjoy the challenge of bow hunting. I started bow hunting in the early 70's. It is just as hard now to draw on a deer at 20yrds, as it was then. I don't need to kill to have a successful season. I have ate many tags waiting for "the right one". I love archery season and cannot justify cutting it short because of choosing a superior weapon. As the years go by, my strength and mobility diminishes but, the desire of the true challenge of bow and arrow hunting is still way too strong to forfit my season to a shoulder fired weapon.

08-Dec-23
"Bow and arrow hunting is not alive and well. Bowhunter numbers are on the decline and scoped and cocked crossbow bolt machine hunters are on the increase."

other than the fact that you dont think a crossbow is a bow...and you seem to be personally offended by those who hunt with them...how does someone hunting with a crossbow personally affect your bowhunting experience? be specific please...

From: Live2Hunt
08-Dec-23
xtroutx, exactly, I started bowhunting to be a bowhunter using a bow. With an xgun, I could have easily killed a pope young caliber buck every year. Hell, this year had a beautiful 10 wide open at 35 - 40 yards with my recurve. That deer lived because of range. With an xgun? dead. The challenge is gone with them, it is just the kill for the ones that went to them without physical challenges. This is where I say the xguns have caused population problems of does and the breeder bucks in public lands.

From: Bou'bound
08-Dec-23
Well since public lands only drive 12% of annual deer kill it could be worse. The crossbows. Though take a larger percentage of the 88% of private land kills

08-Dec-23
I simply stated a fact, a real fact. I never respond to on demand questions, that is another topic altogether.

From: Live2Hunt
08-Dec-23
They are a slap in the face to all that wanted to be a bowhunter, went through the processes of shooting, tuning, learning to shoot well enough to be proficient with a bow to hunt and kill animals. Archery was allowed and set up for people to use a bow and arrow drawn physically at the point of the shot. The seasons were allowed during the breeding seasons of the animals hunted because of the lower probability of the kill. The xgun is not part of any of this. They should have their own seasons and limited time of use as does a rifle season. This is the offending thing of xguns. If you have to use one for age or medical reasons, I have no issue.

08-Dec-23
"I simply stated a fact, a real fact. I never respond to on demand questions, that is another topic altogether."

i can totally understand why you dont want to answer the question. you know as well as i do that your "real fact" isnt relevant to whether bowhunting in general is alive and well.

there are a whole lot of people that dont think compounds are real bows...that is a "real fact."

based on that...there was a time when bowhunters who used what they thought were real bows was on the decline...and bowhunters who use compound devices was on the increase. that is also a "real fact."

many people thought the increase in the use of compound devices was going to be the end of bowhunting. that is a "real fact."

most people agree...that even though those things were all factual...the doomsayers were wrong in terms of how they would affect bowhunting in general.

thats also a "real fact."

08-Dec-23
"They are a slap in the face to all that wanted to be a bowhunter, went through the processes of shooting, tuning, learning to shoot well enough to be proficient with a bow to hunt and kill animals."

how long have you been bow hunting? the reason i ask is simple...do you realize how many trad guys said (and still say) that exact same thing about compounds?

From: Live2Hunt
08-Dec-23
I've been bow hunting for 49 years. Was around during the time when compounds came in. Some griping, but really not a lot, it was a bow type against a bow type. Once people shot a compound they realized this. This is a weapon you operate like a gun, not close to a bow. Big difference.

08-Dec-23
“Some griping, but really not a lot, it was a bow type against a bow type. Once people shot a compound they realized this.”

That is a whole lot more accurate statement if your context it the compounds that were out there in the range of 35-50 years ago, when round-wheel bows had trouble cracking 200 fps with a hunting-weight aluminum arrow like a 2117 and everyone hunted with fingers because releases were illegal to hunt with in a great many states… Let-off was 50%, right? And guys here shooting 85% let-off talk about getting tired holding at full draw….. Optical rangefinders were slow, clumsy, and not all that accurate. I recall Randy Ulmer stating that he thought a maximum “ethical” shot distance for archery was about 35 yards under favorable conditions….

So at the time, you’re correct— the overall experience of shooting a compound was not altogether different from any other bow, and there was also the weight, bulk, and number of Things To Go Wrong as trade-offs…

But Compounds Evolved….

From: Live2Hunt
08-Dec-23
Evolution was not in the question, plus it was and still is a vertical hand/arm/shoulder drawn weapon compared to not.

08-Dec-23
seems to be some selective memories in play here. like i said...if you think compound bows were/are readily accepted...spend some time over on the leatherwall and other traditional forums.

regarding evolution...p&y used to have a limit of 65% let-off for inclusion in their record books. i dont think it was until 2007 where higher let-off bows were allowed. to my knowledge i dont think any battery operated sights are allowed by p&y.

yes...things evolve. the nice thing is we are all allowed to jump off the evolution train wherever we want.

08-Dec-23
LOL… My bows are rarely vertical and not uncommonly horizontal. I guess that makes them part-time crossbows.

But you’ve made my point for me. “Evolution was not in the question” — Nope, and it seems clear that no-one FORESAW the compound — likely because it was understood that Archery Seasons were being instituted for essentially backward-looking reasons.

From: Glunt@work
08-Dec-23
We can sort of jump off the train. I can hunt with a longbow but I can't hunt bighorn rams or goats in my home state a dozen times like my friend who is 30 years my senior. I'm hoping for one chance in my lifetime. Compounds changed things a lot.

No denying that they define bowhunting now. They will for a long time. They may not define what was bow season much longer.

From: Catscratch
08-Dec-23
I don't think compounds will define bowhunting much longer. I'd guess the vast majority of compounders started with the easiest weapon available, and have fondly stuck with it. What makes anyone think the next generations won't do exactly the same as we all did? In my lifetime I'd bet compounders are referred to as "the old-timers" and "purists".

From: Live2Hunt
08-Dec-23
I’m always on the leatherwall, I hunt with a recurve, and well. No one on there puts anyone down with a compound, he’ll a lot of them use both.

08-Dec-23
“No denying [compounds] define bowhunting now. They will for a long time. They may not define what was bow season much longer.”

That’s extremely well put. (As much as I wish it weren’t so!)

From: BC173
08-Dec-23
I’ve often wondered what would happen if crossguns were deemed not legal during archery season, in states where they are now legal. Would the cross gunners actually start hunting with a hand drawn bow or would they quit? For most, I think I know what that answer would be.

From: Glunt@work
08-Dec-23
"I don't think compounds will define bowhunting much longer."

They will. There isn't any new bow technology replacing them. Crossbows are replacing them and redefining the season, but they arent bows and thats not bowhunting.

08-Dec-23
Crossbow users are not bow and arrow hunting, that is another fact. Wonder how many lie to their wife and kids and tell them they are going bow hunting ? I bet most.

09-Dec-23
"Crossbow users are not bow and arrow hunting, that is another fact."

no...that is an opinion...not a "fact."

what are actual facts is that a crossbow meets the definition of a bow...

bow

a weapon for shooting arrows, typically made of a curved piece of wood whose ends are joined by a taut string.

...and a crossbow bolt meets the definition of an arrow...

arrow

a shaft sharpened at the front and with feathers or vanes at the back, shot from a bow as a weapon or for sport.

...and each individual game department determines what bows and what arrows can be used in their bow (archery) seasons.

those are "real facts."

no matter how many times you state your opinions as facts...it doesnt make them so.

09-Dec-23
Lol, I knew it . Dems can adjust the meaning of anything to meet their narrative.

From: Slate
09-Dec-23
Crossbows have taken over the bow industry. Companies that were just making compound bows are now making crossbows. Crossbows are in high demand and it won’t stop. It really is an amazing weapon. This is why I love this country. Freedom of choice and opinion.

From: Bou'bound
09-Dec-23
Call a bolt an arrow if you want

Call a crossbow a bow if you want

Just don’t say anywhere near the same talent, skill, commitment, practice, training, is needed by the user to become proficient with it.

09-Dec-23
"This is why I love this country. Freedom of choice and opinion."

true that...

it is said that "everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." (even if they call them "real facts"...lol)

some people apparently have a hard time differentiating between the two.

From: Live2Hunt
09-Dec-23
Timex, frisky also calls flat tip recurved abominations!!! Lol

09-Dec-23
"Call a bolt an arrow if you want Call a crossbow a bow if you want

Just don’t say anywhere near the same talent, skill, commitment, practice, training, is needed by the user to become proficient with it."

im not aware of anyone that said there was.

the same thing can be said for traditional bows and compound bows.

choices...

From: PECO2
09-Dec-23
"bow. a weapon for shooting arrows, typically made of a curved piece of wood whose ends are joined by a taut string." It says "typically" so, we can add cams and cables to beyond parallel non wood composite limbs and it's still a bow. We can shorten the contraption, put it on a rifle stock, fire it with a built in trigger, scope it, and it's still a bow. We can replace the contraption with a tube on a rifle stock, send the arrow with air, and it's still a bow, as it is firing an arrow. Where does it end?

09-Dec-23
It does not end.

From: KSflatlander
09-Dec-23
Look at ole Ricky flip flopping around again.

"there are a whole lot of people that dont think compounds are real bows...that is a "real fact"

"many people thought the increase in the use of compound devices was going to be the end of bowhunting. that is a "real fact.""

The only fact in those statements is that others have opinions. Leave it up to Ricky to call opinions of others facts. But that's Ricky for ya. He conflates when it suits him. Throw them stones Ricky LMAO.

Crossbows shouldn't be in archery season. The biggest disadvantage a true bowhunter has is drawing the bow when game is within range. Visually and auditorily. Crossbow hunters don't have that issue and we all know it's a big advantage. That's the difference and they share that advantage with firearms. Crossbows belong in firearms season.

Many people on this thread think Ricky is an argumentative ahole...that's a real fact. Some people think Ricky is a bigot...real fact. See how that works Ricky.

09-Dec-23
" Leave it up to Ricky to call opinions of others facts."

and leave it up to you to completely misrepresent (or completely misunderstand) what was said. i never said those opinions were facts...i said it was a fact that many people have those opinions.

either your intellectual dishonesty is legendary or your ignorance is. i suspect its a combination of both but i dont know that to be a fact.

"Many people on this thread think Ricky is an argumentative ahole...that's a real fact. Some people think Ricky is a bigot...real fact. See how that works Ricky."

i do. and i agree that some people have those opinions...and they are more than welcome to have them.

the things i said were facts...are indeed factual. you cant refute those things so instead you make personal attacks on me.

by all means, show me something that I stated as fact that is not factual and ill be happy to discuss it...but i wont hold my breath.

From: KSflatlander
09-Dec-23
C-o-n-f-l-a-t-I-o-n

"Conflation is the merging of two or more sets of information, texts, ideas or opinions into one, often in error. Conflation is defined as 'fusing blending', but is often used colloquially as ‘being equal to’ - treating two similar but disparate concepts as the same."

09-Dec-23
Ricky, many state game departments consider crossbows as archery equipment. That is a fact. However, MANY/MOST people that hunt with either a compound or trad gear DO NOT consider a crossbow to be a bow, regardless of what Webster defines. That is a fact. This "opinion" is shared by national, state, and local bowhunting organizations. That is also a fact. Hell, even Wyoming (which has allowed crossbows in archery season for decades) differentiates longbows, recurves, and compounds from crossbows in their General Hunting Regulations. You can continue to post ad nauseum, as is your norm, and it is not going to change the opinion of those of us that believe a crossbow is not a bow. Not now, not ever. That is a fact.

From: Bowbender
09-Dec-23
Opinions vs facts. Crossbows are bows, hence legal for archery. Fact.

Actually, no. For many game departments it was a consensus of opinions codified into law, hence legal. Doesn’t make it a fact, just within what is a legal means for taking wildlife.

In 1858 the consensus of opinion, therefor legal, was that blacks were 3/5 of a person. Didn’t make it a fact, just legal.

Wyobull, Ricky claims his posts are driven by curiosity which is bullshit. He’s an attention seeking narcissist with a deep rooted need to have the last word. Look at any thread that he squats in.

09-Dec-23
"Crossbows are bows, hence legal for archery."

youre as intellectually dishonest (or just plain ignorant) as ksflatlander. who ever said that? certainly not me.

nice try though.

From: Groundhunter
09-Dec-23
Don should understand NO ONE CARES, GET OVER YOURSELF...

From: Bou'bound
09-Dec-23
Where does he find the time?

From: RK
09-Dec-23
Same place you do Bou

And many others here

09-Dec-23
All just entertainment. In the real scope of things , hunting is not important.

09-Dec-23
All just entertainment. In the real scope of things , hunting is not important.

09-Dec-23
Is the scope fixed, or variable?

10-Dec-23
"All just entertainment. In the real scope of things , hunting is not important."

i agree with you for the most part. i wouldnt go so far as to say its "not important"...but its no more important than any other recreational activity we engage in.

for some people its gone way beyond that...its not something they do...its who they are. its become a religion. when someone disagrees with them it is taken as an attack on their religion. they dont see differences of opinion as something to be discussed...they see them as something that must be defeated or silenced.

you are either a bowhunter like them... or you are an infidel.

10-Dec-23
I think the inflation and government expansion is is higher priority.

10-Dec-23
"I think the inflation and government expansion is is higher priority."

i agree...especially in terms of long term consequences. makes hunting with a crossbow seem like small potatoes. if some in government get their way...many here will be begging to hunt with any weapon...even a crossbow.

10-Dec-23
^^^^ This coming from the one that pontificates ad nauseum on anything and everything and has posted more than once it’s because you have interests in more than just hunting. Apparently, your boundless narcissism doesn’t allow you to believe the same can possibly be true for anyone else but yourself. It’s also apparent YOU’RE the one that can’t stand anyone that disagrees with you. Otherwise, you wouldn’t continue to post your responses to what others post over, and over, and over….I honestly don’t think I’ve ever ran across anyone so full of themselves. At least TBM had a sense of humor.

10-Dec-23
"Otherwise, you wouldn’t continue to post your responses to what others post over, and over, and over…."

you do realize thats how conversations work...right? somebody says something...somebody responds...somebody says something else...and somebody responds again.

ive never even suggested that anyone isnt or shouldnt be entitled to their opinion...whether or not they agree with me. quite the opposite actually.

not only am i open to opposing opinions...im open to changing my own opinion when im shown to be wrong. ironically, that very thing happened on the crossbow issue.

seems to me that the true narcissist would be the one engaging in personal attacks...attempting to silence those that disagree with them...and shut down conversation they dont happen to like.

From: Glunt@work
10-Dec-23
Before inclusion: "We demand to be allowed to use crossbows during bow season. Our desire trumps what's currently legal and the fact that bowhunting will be dramatically changed. We will be relentless until we get our way. Your objections and the impact on bowhunters be damned!"

After inclusion: "Geeze guys settle down and quit griping about your season. Live and let live. What a bunch of busy bodies."

From: KSflatlander
10-Dec-23
Ricky- ask Santa Claus for a mirror for Christmas

10-Dec-23
"After inclusion: "Geeze guys settle down and quit griping about your season. Live and let live. What a bunch of busy bodies."

im not sure ive seen anyone say that...but if thats the way you interpreted it...i guess it is what it is.

what ive seen is basically seen is "show me."

has the inclusion of crossbows resulted in substantially more people in the woods during the archery seasons? has it resulted in substantially more game being taken during archery season? has it resulted in the shortening of archery seasons? has it resulted in an adverse affect on the resource itself.

as to "griping about your season"...thats been going on for as long as ive been bow hunting (never with a crossbow by the way)...and thats been close to 50 years.

seems to me that the people that get it done every year...still manage to get it done regardless. those who "gripe" about their seasons...always seem to have something to gripe about...and its been going on long before crossbow inclusion.

they cant shoot a big buck because their neighbor is baiting...my neighbors food plots are pulling all the deer...all the good hunting land is getting leased...people are shooting all the bucks before they get big enough...all the good bucks are being shot because of trail cams...all the big bucks are being shot at night by poachers...public land is too crowded because of youtube influencers...people are shooting too many does...people arent shooting enough does...my neighbor is hunting too close to the property line...kids (or their dads) are killing all the good bucks during youth season...youth gun season before archery season is making all the good bucks nocturnal...the wolves are killing all the deer...the coyotes are killing all the deer...the amish are killing all the deer...and last but not least...the crossbows are ruining everything.

there is never a shortage of reasons why someone isnt shooting the caliber of buck they think they deserve...but those reasons seldom point inward.

From: KSflatlander
10-Dec-23
I haven't seen so many dead horses since the rendering truck tipped over.

From: HunterR
10-Dec-23
"there is never a shortage of reasons why someone isnt shooting the caliber of buck they think they deserve...but those reasons seldom point inward."

You missed a few that always make me laugh; My boss made me work. My wife wouldn't let me go hunting. My in-laws made me do something for them. The public parking lot had too many trucks. I saw a guy with a crossbow and had to go home and cry. (ok, I made up that last one but the rest are true)

10-Dec-23
"You missed a few that always make me laugh..."

this has the makings of a fun thread...you should start it.

all the reasons why my bow season sucked...that had nothing to do with me. :)

From: Glunt@work
10-Dec-23
"has the inclusion of crossbows resulted in substantially more people in the woods during the archery seasons? has it resulted in substantially more game being taken during archery season? has it resulted in the shortening of archery seasons? has it resulted in an adverse affect on the resource itself?"

It has resulted in substantially more people besides bowhunters in the woods during what was bow season. It has resulted in substantially more game being taken by nonbowhunters during what was bow season. I dont think it has resulted in shorter seasons or an adverse effect on the resource. Although more capable, most users have similar success as bowhunters. It has reduced bowhunting numbers.

Long story short. Crossbows may be fun, good for hunting and good for archery season license sales in some places but including them in what was bow season detracts from bowhunting overall as a sport/activity/lifestyle. Does it matter individually if a guy climbs a tree in his back 40 acres carrying a bow vs a crossbow? Not really. His success or lack of would likely be similar with either weapon or an open sighted handgun or flintlock. The reasons bow season would have been better left to bows are bigger than what happens under one tree in the back 40.

My opposition to inclusion isn't about crossbows. It's about bowhunting.

From: Bou'bound
10-Dec-23
This has the makings of a trans swimmer thread

10-Dec-23
"It has resulted in substantially more people besides bowhunters in the woods during what was bow season. It has resulted in substantially more game being taken by nonbowhunters during what was bow season."

aside from the word games being played regarding what you believe are "bowhunters"....

are there more hunters in the woods during archery season...all weapons (traditional bows...compound bows...crossbows) combined?

is more game being taken during archery season...all weapons (traditional bows...compound bows...crossbows) combined?

10-Dec-23
Crossbows have led to a decline in bowhunter numbers. Bow and arrow hunter numbers will continue to decline for a number of years yet.

From: PECO2
10-Dec-23
"are there more hunters in the woods during archery season...all weapons (traditional bows...compound bows...crossbows) combined?" I'm going to say yes as many rifle hunters jumped ship and got an archery tag since they were able to use a crossgun. Wasn't there a discussion about one state admitting they fucked up when they went to full inclusion of crossguns into archery season? Too many (more) hunters, too many (more) deer being killed. I think it was maybe Wisconsin?

From: Catscratch
10-Dec-23
PECO2, I looked at the data for Wisconsin a while back. It showed firearms numbers pretty much stable since 2013 (prior to crossbow season) with no significant drop, total archery also stayed about the same but the number of vertical bow harvests dropped as the crossbow harvests went up. It plainly points towards a bunch of compounders switching to crossbow.

11-Dec-23
""are there more hunters in the woods during archery season...all weapons (traditional bows...compound bows...crossbows) combined?" I'm going to say yes as many rifle hunters jumped ship and got an archery tag since they were able to use a crossgun. Wasn't there a discussion about one state admitting they fucked up when they went to full inclusion of crossguns into archery season? Too many (more) hunters, too many (more) deer being killed."

that hasnt happened in michigan either. overall numbers of bowhunters (traditional bows...compound bows...crossbows) has stayed the same or dropped slightly since inclusion in 2009. this would suggest what catscratch said is accurate. while the percentage of bowhunters using a crossbow has increased...they dont appear to be new hunters...just converts from the existing bowhunter ranks.

that brings up another question.

if so many bowhunters are switching from traditional bows and compound bows to crossbows...what does that really say about what the majority of bowhunters think? and what does that mean for game departments who are trying desperately to maintain overall hunter numbers?

if it was simply a matter of crossbow manufacturers greasing the palms of legislators that drove the rule change...why have so many "real bowhunters" given up their "real bows" and switched to "xguns?" were the crossbow manufacturers greasing the palms of the hunters too? were they giving the crossbows away? did the game departments make crossbows mandatory?

at the end of the day...you can change the rule...but in order for a large percentage of the existing bowhunters to drop hundreds or thousands of dollars to re-tool...it must be something they actually want to do.

From: Mapleman
11-Dec-23

Mapleman's embedded Photo
LOL
Mapleman's embedded Photo
LOL

From: Catscratch
11-Dec-23
Ricky, I think the vast majority of compounders did not want crossbow inclusion. But made them possible when they failed to fight inclusion through lawmakers, and actually greased the wheels when they said they're ok with them for youth/old hunters. There is an old saying and I think it applies here "you get what you tolerate".

Why have they become so common? Easy. Compounders have always chosen the easiest things available; releases, corn, range finders, adjustable sites, outfitters, leases, mechanicals, cell cams, pop-up blinds, Sitka, etc. When an easy button pops up they slam it. Crossbows are just the next easy button. Plus, just like compounders did for decades... new hunters are going for the easiest to start with which is now the crossbow instead of the compound.

I see no way to take it back. I suspect game departments would rather change seasons, numbers of permits, and limits to NR's than to restrict an already established weapon.

11-Dec-23
"Ricky, I think the vast majority of compounders did not want crossbow inclusion."

if thats the case...why do you suppose so many switched?

I think what would be really interesting is to be able to really dig deep into the data...but im not sure its available or even possible.

for example...its easy to say that the overall bowhunter numbers havent changed but the crossbow numbers have risen dramatically so it must be trad and compound hunters switching to the crossbow.

sounds legit...except for the fact that it doesnt take into consideration the thousands of bowhunters that age out...die...or just stop hunting every year...and how many of those are replaced by new hunters which have only ever chosen the crossbow.

thats why i said before...the raw numbers tell a story...but its not always the whole story...or an accurate story. correlation isnt always causation.

"I see no way to take it back. I suspect game departments would rather change seasons, numbers of permits, and limits to NR's than to restrict an already established weapon."

i agree with you on the "no way to take it back"...but from the game departments viewpoint...why would they want to? they have enough trouble in most areas just keeping hunter numbers from falling. i'm not aware of any risk of seasons or tags being cut...again in most areas its the opposite.

granted...in limited tag areas...there might be more competition for available tags but do we know whether that is a matter of crossbow inclusion...or is it just a matter of certain areas becoming more popular...for a variety of reasons...including but not limited to social media sites like the one we are posting on.

ill guarantee you that there are many people who have decided to do hunts that they never even considered before...had it not been for reading about them here. i know ive done it myself. how many others can say the same...if theyre being honest.

From: Catscratch
11-Dec-23
"if thats the case...why do you suppose so many switched?"

I said exactly why I think they switched in my previous post. It's the same easy button as bait, compounds, range finders, mechanicals, etc.

"I think what would be really interesting is to be able to really dig deep into the data...but im not sure its available or even possible."

Wisconsin has some data to dig through. It's not perfect but it's all we have.

"sounds legit...except for the fact that it doesnt take into consideration the thousands of bowhunters that age out...die...or just stop hunting every year...and how many of those are replaced by new hunters which have only ever chosen the crossbow."

I addressed that in the post above also and it is considered. I think for many decades most new hunters have picked and started on the easiest equipment available. That is now the crossbow.

11-Dec-23
i get what you said...and i dont necessarily disagree.

i just dont know how to reconcile these two statements.

"I think the vast majority of compounders did not want crossbow inclusion."

"I said exactly why I think they switched in my previous post. It's the same easy button as bait, compounds, range finders, mechanicals, etc."

if the majority of compound hunters didnt really want inclusion...why would they then switch to something they didnt want...even if it was easier?

not saying it's not the case...just seems kind of hypocritical to me.

do you see what im getting at?

all i know is im glad im not the one in charge of making the decision for anyone other than myself. damned if you do...damned if you dont.

From: Live2Hunt
11-Dec-23
I'm in WI and purchase what is called the Patrons license. Basically all hunting/fishing/trapping in one. Well, to hunt with an xgun they have to have an xgun stamp for the archery license. This comes with the Patrons license and they will not remove it even when I ask them to. I tell them I do not want my name or license associated with these things in no way possible. Nope, they will not remove it. But, trapping you have to ask to keep on there?

From: WhattheFOC
11-Dec-23
I dont see vertical shooters switching to xbow. Not buying it. Maybe what the numbers are actually showing is old bowhunters retiring and new xbow hunters slithering in.

From: Jethro
11-Dec-23
Many vertical shooters most definitely made the switch here in PA. I don't care. Just stating that it has indeed happened. Fact, not opinion.

From: Live2Hunt
11-Dec-23
Whatthe, I can connect you with many, more than you want to know about that jumped immediately. Funny thing is, they still say they are bow hunting!!!!

From: Jethro
11-Dec-23
Live2, I agree. The ones I know that have switched still consider it bow hunting.

From: Catscratch
11-Dec-23
2013 Wisconsin had 87,625 vertical bow harvests.

2014 Wisconsin had 54,815 vertical bow harvests, and 26,891 crossbow harvests.

So you guys saying that in any average single season approximately 33% of bowhunters retire out and are replaced by crossbow hunters (who all harvested deer on their first year of hunting). It just doesn't seem like a sustainable or realistic scenario to me. But, I've been wrong plenty of times before. I just don't see 27,000 bow hunters ageing out and being replaced by new crossbow hunters. And if they came from the rifle hunters, then why aren't those numbers going down much? I suppose you could say that compound hunters are switching to rifle hunting in huge numbers and at the same time rifle hunters are retiring out in huge numbers. That would make the data work as well as vert guys switching to crossbows.

Ricky, I stand by my views. Is it hypocritical for a man to be against inclusion but later switch to a crossbow? In my mind yes. Does that mean it doesn't or didn't happen? Of course not. From personal experience I see it all the time where someone was against something but eventually accepted it.

11-Dec-23
WhattheFOC, obviously everyone bases their opinion on their own experiences, and mine mirrors your observation. I don’t know anyone that has switched from compound to crossbow. None. Many have either quit hunting altogether or switched to rifle, but not crossbow.

From: xtroutx
11-Dec-23
"Wisconsin has some data to dig through. It's not perfect but it's all we have." Not perfect is an understatement. Their data is very vague, with the exception of kills per weapon, and even that is iffy. Like L2H said above, the patron license automatically gives you and xbow license. There is no accurate way to tell how many archery vs xbow licenses are sold each year. Without that data being accurate, the kill% in unknown. Kill % is a major factor in regulating weapons. The seasons run concurrent but are separate, as should license sale be. why have a separate season and then pool the licenses together. The separate season was established to collect data on the xbow, but for good or bad, it is not accurate with the license sales system in place. One thing is for sure, FACT- xbow kills have risen every year since 2013 in WI by a large percent.

From: Live2Hunt
11-Dec-23
An example from people I know. My Niece's husband, kids and relatives, all are using xguns switching from bows. I went Muzzleloader hunting with some old friends a week ago. Out of 8 of us that bow hunt, or used to, 6 went from bow to xgun. 1 still uses his compound and I use a recurve. The one who did well with a compound put a slaughter on this year with an xgun. There are many many more I can come up with of people I know. One dad went to get his son a new bow and came home with an xgun and said "this is what your using this year" The Son that was mid teens at the time said "no, I am using a bow" and would not use it, which I gave him a kudo's for. If you are not seeing this, then you have blinders on.

11-Dec-23
Live2Hunt, at no point did I said it doesn’t happen. What I DID say was that in my wide circle of friends and acquaintances, it hasn’t happened. Just because your experience has been different doesn’t change that fact, blinders aside of course.

11-Dec-23
Double post.

From: Catscratch
11-Dec-23
Mirrors what I've witnessed; tons of compounders switched to crossbows and took their kids with them.

I also saw a ton of rifle hunters buy crossbows the first year or two of full inclusion, only to sell them later. They thought it would be fun to hunt the rut but didn't have the mindset or skills to get within 40yds and make a good shot. Just too different of a hunting style and kill mechanism than they were used to. Most wounded several deer, were disappointed and frustrated, then went back to rifle hunting solely.

I wish KS would go back to a weapon specific tag instead of it's any-season tags.

From: Live2Hunt
11-Dec-23
Wyo, I'm just saying it happens/happened a lot. I have also seen people that are in the woods with an xgun but have a compound sitting in there truck. Not sure what is going on there but there are some that will say they shot deer with a bow but in reality killed it with an xgun.

From: Mapleman
11-Dec-23

Mapleman's embedded Photo
Mapleman's embedded Photo
'Funny thing is, they still say they are bow hunting!!!!' Check out the picture- bent limbs, cables, string, cams, trigger, broadhead tipped arrow (bolt) much like a compound. Crossbow/compound bow. Bowhunters are using crossbows over compounds because they are easier. Bowhunters are using compounds because they are easier than recurve/longbows. What is so hard to understand that bowhunters are using compounds because they are easier than recurve/longbows? And I am well aware of the having to draw a compound in the presence of game nonsense.

From: Live2Hunt
11-Dec-23
If you think that pic shows a bow, your joking, right? Scope, stock, trigger? "And I am well aware of the having to draw a compound in the presence of game nonsense." Pretty big factor there, I rifle hunt and if you see the deer there is not much movement required as there is with a bow. Please, nonsense? Really? You have drawn on a deer/animal with a bow, right? That is one of the big hurdles of the shot, the second is making a good shot with a bow. All gone with an xgun.

11-Dec-23
"Ricky, I stand by my views. Is it hypocritical for a man to be against inclusion but later switch to a crossbow? In my mind yes. Does that mean it doesn't or didn't happen? Of course not. From personal experience I see it all the time where someone was against something but eventually accepted it."

im not doubting your views...just clarifying what your opinion is. i dont know the answer...thats why im asking.

if...as the others say...its all new bowhunters that are starting with crossbows...and not converts from other bows...the next questions would be...are the game departments simply giving the new generation of bowhunters what they want...and if they didnt allow crossbows...would bowhunter numbers be dropping even more than they are now?

From: Live2Hunt
11-Dec-23
I don't think they would have dropped, you always had people that hunted and picked up the bow for the challenges it offered, to the point of some quit rifle hunting and just focused on bows. If any were added with the xguns it were those that did not want to deal with setting up, practicing, learning to shoot a bow. They made it as easy as shooting a gun so why go through the hassle when you just have it set up and hit the button.

From: HunterR
11-Dec-23
lmao "show me on the doll where the crossbow hurt you" that is so spot on.

I know plenty of people that switched from a compound to a crossbow so they now harvest and register deer with crossbows and not compounds. It only makes sense that when this happens and as it continues to happen the crossbow deer harvest will grow while the compound/recurve/longbow harvest will drop, I bet a lot like the longbow/recurve harvest dropped and the compound harvest increased when compounds came out. Why this is a drama inducing the sky is falling whine-fest to a small group of haters makes no sense to most people, including those that make the rules. The crossbow hunter haters would be better off if they came up with a new whine-point, and the often used "crossgunners are killing all the good bucks and thare aint none left for me to kill" also is laughable at best, at least in Wisconsin anyway. I do not speak for anywhere but Wisconsin, where most areas are way over goal not to mentioned as someone previously said the majority of the deer herd in Wisconsin is diseased with CWD. I live and hunt in one of the most southern counties in the state, and I do get all the bucks I harvest tested and in the past few years 50% of the bucks I have harvested have tested positive for CWD. Of course these are usually older bucks and CWD is known to be more prevalent in bucks than does and the older the deer the more likely they might have the disease. Unless the crossbow hunter hater whiners can find a more believable reason to whine no one of any importance is going to listen, it all just sounds like the old dude yelling at the neighbor kids to get off his lawn, but in this case, no one is really on his lawn in the first place.

Live2hunt most folks I know that hunt with a crossbow have a back-up as a lot of these new crossbows like to spontaneously explode, some have a back-up crossbow and some only have 1 crossbow and have their compounds as a back-up. Maybe that's what you saw when you were peeping through someone's truck window. Although I could be the only one wondering, what are you doing peering into other people's vehicles to see what they have in them?

From: Mapleman
11-Dec-23
Live2, I have drawn an several animals over my 35 years, been busted a time or 2 or 10. But if I'm setup right and am paying attention it really isn't that hard. Except for mature does, they are sharp. I respect your opinion but a crossbow has cables,cams,string, arrow, broadhead same as a compound. Most compound shooters use a trigger and I have seen a rare scoped compound. They have several things in common, correct?

From: Live2Hunt
11-Dec-23
Peeping through, well story short, he blocked a road I was up in before he got there and I could not get out. I was trying to honk,yell, find out where he was, etc to get out of there when I found he was there somewhere. Keep trying to say your a bow hunter with your Xgun HunterR, your out for the kill only, any way you can get it.

From: Live2Hunt
11-Dec-23
Maple, they do not operate the same, not even close. I have bow hunted a long time going from recurve to compound now back to a recurve. When you get the movement to draw your bow without getting busted your chances skyrocket. Since I went back to a recurve killing a deer is the same as when I used a compound. All skills involved with shooting a bow are gone with an xgun.

From: HunterR
11-Dec-23
"Keep trying to say your a bow hunter with your Xgun HunterR, your out for the kill only, any way you can get it."

I've explained this to you multiple times, either you don't want to understand or you have no short term memory, but I'll try again; I hunt to hunt, not only for the kill. I use a crossbow, a compound, or a gun, depending on the day and the season. Also, and the most important thanks to whiners like yourself; When I use a crossbow, I am hunting in the crossbow season, which as you know, is separate from the bow season, and I say I am using a crossbow, during the crossbow season. Do you really expect me or anyone else to call it a crossgun or a bolt rifle or a string rifle or any of the other imaginary made up words?

From: Live2Hunt
11-Dec-23
No, I'm sure you would not like to say that, you think of yourself as a bow hunter still. But, this is a BOW hunting site started to share and discuss BOW hunting/shooting. Same as ARCHERY seasons, they were set up for people who wanted to hunt with BOWS and arrows. Xguns were never in the picture except for not being legal to use unless handicapped or age in the later years.

From: HunterR
11-Dec-23
Mainly I don't use those words because they're made up and imaginary, ever since I turned 8 years old I started using real words. So maybe it's lack of reading comprehension on your part. When I use a crossbow I'm a crossbow hunter. When I use a compound I'm a compound bow hunter. When I use a gun I'm a gun hunter. You're quick to jump to saying this is a BOW hunting site, so being that I also use a compound BOW I don't think you can make me leave, so if what I post hurts your eyes don't read it. On another note, I've read where you have said hunters need to get/stick together to have a strong voice, do you think your constant belittling of anyone who chooses to use a different weapon (legal) than you do to hunt helps that cause?

From: Live2Hunt
11-Dec-23
So what determines you using one or the other? Guilt? Ease of use? What? I'm betting since you bought your xgun you have not picked that compound up. I guess we will never know. Sticking together as a hunting group? Yes. But, all groups have rules, regulations, and ethics within them. As a whole, we are hunters, within the hunters group and this site we are BOW hunters, well, were. I guess that all got thrown out by some, right?

From: PECO2
11-Dec-23
HunterR, I don't hear people say "I'm crossbow hunting," I hear them say "I am bow hunting." No where in the definition of a bow quoted above, or anywhere else, does it say that a bow is a "shoulder fired weapon." How can you seriously argue that a shoulder fired, scoped crossgun is equal to a bow, compound or stick? Come on.

From: Live2Hunt
11-Dec-23
Timex, I hunt 100% public. Honestly? I don’t care what happens on private land, it is basically a preserve for your use and how you manage it. There is not a lot of thought needed to find and shoot the deer you want. Public land? When I hear of people picking off animals with ease, and the amount that have switched to these machines it affects me on deer populations. When they are out there filling their tags with nubs, fawns and does it affects me. Sorry, I’ve seen the numbers in the forests that were not there before. They are there now in full force because they can now use a gun during what was archery and breading season. The deer numbers show it now.

11-Dec-23
"No where in the definition of a bow quoted above, or anywhere else, does it say that a bow is a "shoulder fired weapon."

thats true...but it also doesnt say it cant be shoulder fired...nor does it say a bow must be held vertically...drawn and held by hand at full draw...cant have a trigger...cant have a scope...etc.

the definition is actually pretty clear...

bow: a weapon that is used to propel an arrow and that is made of a strip of flexible material (such as wood) with a cord connecting the two ends and holding the strip bent

From: Live2Hunt
11-Dec-23
Wow, bow and arrow hunting/shooting/life is gone with some. Tell me, what is the definition of archery? Oh wise man of the dictionary

11-Dec-23
"I do sympathize with those in draw & limited tag states that are loosing opportunities to xbow hunters. They have a legitimate reason to dislike the legalization of the xbow in that area."

first youd have to show that the opportunities are being lost specifically to people using crossbows.

in limited tag areas...theres only so many tags to apply for...whether or not you shoot a trad bow...a compound bow...or a crossbow.

if theres 100 tags per year and 300 applicants your odds are the same whether they all shoot longbows....they all shoot compound...or they all shoot crossbows...or any combination of the three.

if every applicant shoots a crossbow youre going to draw a tag about every third year... if every applicant shoots a compound...youre still only going to get a tag about every third year.

Youd have to show that inclusion of the crossbow is the only reason there is increased interest in a certain species/area...and to my knowledge that hasnt been shown.

11-Dec-23
"Tell me, what is the definition of archery?"

archery: the art, practice, or skill of shooting with bow and arrow

and before you ask...

bowhunting (or bow hunting): the practice of hunting game animals by archery.

:)

From: Live2Hunt
11-Dec-23
With bow and an arrow. Go farther into that description? I believe they go into the dynamics.

11-Dec-23

Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
"With bow and an arrow. Go farther into that description? I believe they go into the dynamics."

nope...thats it. that was from wikipedia. above is another one if didnt like the first one.

do you have one you like better?

11-Dec-23

Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
how about good old merriam-webster...

From: Live2Hunt
11-Dec-23

Live2Hunt's embedded Photo
Live2Hunt's embedded Photo
Shooting a bow and an arrow, a bolt? Did they say a bolt or bow and arrow. How about a xgun definition?

11-Dec-23
"Shooting a bow and an arrow, a bolt? Did they say a bolt or bow and arrow. How about a xgun definition?"

a crossbow bolt meets the definition of an arrow.

arrow: a shaft sharpened at the front and with feathers or vanes at the back, shot from a bow as a weapon or for sport.

"xgun" is a made up word so i guess you can make up any definition youd like.

:)

youre welcome to play word games all night but at the end of the day...the only definition that matters is the one that game departments use regarding what defines a legal weapon for use in archery seasons.

From: Live2Hunt
11-Dec-23
Hard to improvise and adapt when they are not there anymore. I’ve got 5 county’s and miles of boots in the ground. Just gets worse. I am able to see deer every once in a while, but it’s disheartening. Ricky, twisting words, word games? A bolt is for an xgun, an arrow is for a bow. You sure are a democrat, aren’t you.

From: Live2Hunt
11-Dec-23
Hard to improvise and adapt when they are not there anymore. I’ve got 5 county’s and miles of boots in the ground. Just gets worse. I am able to see deer every once in a while, but it’s disheartening. Ricky, twisting words, word games? A bolt is for an xgun, an arrow is for a bow. You sure are a democrat, aren’t you.

From: RK
11-Dec-23
It's truly sad to see so many people that have lost the fun of hunting.

Pathetic boys, truly pathetic

Carry on with your weapons wars.

From: Live2Hunt
11-Dec-23
Just sit back and say nothing? Where does tech stop. People don’t hunt anymore till their cell cam goes off? Shove Xguns down our throats without any need (archery seasons were fine as they were) fishing, forward facing 3D? Point and cast? Drill a hole on the ice and find exactly where the fish are? Something will give and all that want these resources will pay including those who go to the easy buttons. Sit back and say nothing? Na!!!

From: RK
11-Dec-23
Questions for all you weapon warriors

When you come off of public hunting and there is another public land user exiting with his or her crossbow in hand, do you approach them and spend any time chewing their ass out for ruining your sport and Bowhunting in general or do you just leave ?

When you are at your local archery store and someone is buying a crossbow do you casually say, thanks for ruining archery as we know it?

Or is your outrage just keyboard stuff?

From: HunterR
12-Dec-23
live2hunt in one post you say all the xgunners are killing and tagging all the fawns and nubs and does and in the next post you say there aint no deer. Which is it? "there aint no bucks " doesn't work either as every county in wi has nice bucks harvested every year.

From: Glunt@work
12-Dec-23
It would be misplaced and impolite to bash a crossbow user. Crossbows are legal, efficient, easy, the whole family can share one and the new ones are amazing compared to the clunky awkward ones 30 years ago.

It's totally understandable why someone would use one. There's a new generation that never knew archery season without them being legal. Being upset with people choosing the easiest path would be futile and nonsensical. Easy will always be a popular path. That's human nature. I would ask them how their hunt went, share any helpful info I had and wish them good luck.

I have had some spirited discussions with folks who pushed to get them included in bow seasons. I worked in the archery industry in the '90s when the crossbow segment was just gaining ground. The main debate among the big players in the industry was whether their effect would be a stepping stone to get folks into bowhunting or whether they would end up decreasing bowhunting numbers.

12-Dec-23
"The main debate among the big players in the industry was whether their effect would be a stepping stone to get folks into bowhunting or whether they would end up decreasing bowhunting numbers."

i guess the answer to that question would all depend on what you consider "bowhunting numbers.

to me...anyone who participates in the archery season...using any legal weapon allowed in that season...is a bowhunter.

in that case..."bowhunting numbers in most areas appear to be just treading water...at best.

12-Dec-23
In my experience, the number of overall hu terms didn't seem to change during archery seasons, but there are far fewer bowhunters. I rarely see hunters going in the woods with bows and arrows anymore. I see predominantly scoped crossbows.

From: Live2Hunt
12-Dec-23
RK, every chance I get I am discrediting use of an xgun especially one I know that used to bowhunt. A couple have actually gone back to a bow.

HunterR, think about it, please. Do you type/talk before thinking about it? Did they just allow xguns for all or has it been a few years?

Wolves are a big problem, but the xguns kind of put the kibosh on it from what I have seen.

Not many xgunners this year where I was because baiting was illegal, to little to late.

No issues with bowhunters prior to xguns here in WI. I have seen and heard a lot of excuses for going with an xgun, most is my arm/shoulder/hand hurts, LOL. No it is because you want to use and easy killing machine that operates like a gun to make the kill easier.

Again, this site is about bowhunters/bow shooters shooting and hunting with bows and arrows. Why do you seem so surprised when you get flack for coming on here pumping xguns? Why do you think Pat does not allow adds for them, nor has a section for them? They are not bow hunting, get it, Hello!!!!

12-Dec-23
can someone please speak to the issue of limited tags in certain areas?

has the inclusion of crossbows in archery season resulted in less tags being issued...more applicants for the available tags...or some combination of both?

if in fact there is more competition for available tags...what evidence is there that would indicate the increase in applications are due to crossbow inclusion and not just increased interest due to other factors?

From: RutnStrut
12-Dec-23
There are a few givens with crossbows whether you are for or against. They require almost zero effort and skill to be very proficient with. Do the booners walk out of the woods and fall at your feet when you use a crossbow, of course not. You still have to hunt. Crossbows are easier to kill with and being easier to use will allow more deer to be killed. This isn't an opinion, it's fact. If crossbows aren't easier, why are they the go to deer hunting weapon for the handicapped, elderly, and young?

Allowing crossbows into archery season for all will have negative impacts on the deer herd. You can't make the hole in the bucket bigger without the bucket draining faster.

From: Live2Hunt
12-Dec-23
Leasing and cost of buying hunting land is king in WI now, not spending that. I've hunted private land for years till leasing got big, now it is a rare thing if someone gives permission without money. We have thousands and thousands of acres of forest and I have spent a lifetime hunting it. We never had a deer issue on these properties till now. So because some want xguns, some want wolves and because the big drop in deer populations because of technology of hunters, greed of hunters and anti hunting groups I have to pay to hunt a small property that I cannot wander off of? I will complain however and to whoever I want to try and make a difference. I have a hard time being locked down on property and always having to watch were I step. Also, I know what was and what should be still on these large acre public lands and it is shame what has happened. Basically I will have to quit hunting and am close to that after seeing what I see and hearing from others about there states. They say we are running out of property for people to hunt, there are complaints about overrun public lands, how can we have the reduction of hunters as you all say, but have overrun public lands? Here in WI, we have public land, but greed, loss of effort for gain, and the WOKE society with wolves, we have no game to hunt.

From: Live2Hunt
12-Dec-23
Timex, I agree, xguns are not going anywhere. But here in WI it is a separate season that could and should be shortened. I would give them the month of Oct., the gun season and that is it. Get them out of the easy kill periods of early season and the rut.

12-Dec-23

Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo

Ricky The Cabel Guy's Link
"Allowing crossbows into archery season for all will have negative impacts on the deer herd. You can't make the hole in the bucket bigger without the bucket draining faster."

i hear that a lot but i keep asking for the data that shows it. in many areas, crossbows have been legal for all for well over a decade now. in michigan it has been since 2009...yet there has been no "negative affects on the deer herd" that im awar of...at least not in terms of over harvest.

overall bowhunter numbers as well as overall harvest numbers have remained about the same if not fallen slightly since crossbow inclusion.

is it different in your state or there another "negative affect on the deer herd" that you are referring to?

From: Mike Turner
12-Dec-23
I really like Don Higgins statement! More us need to speak our minds against the use of cross guns allowed for use in archery seasons. I'm totally good with the physically impaired to continue use of cross guns in bow season. Outside of that, they belong in gun seasons only.

From: Live2Hunt
12-Dec-23
"You can't make the hole in the bucket bigger without the bucket draining faster." Good analogy right there Rut.

Screw the skewed data crap Ricky, go out in the public woods and see for yourself like the rest of us.

From: Mapleman
12-Dec-23
'Get them out of the easy kill periods of early season and the rut.' Maybe they should close hunting to all weapons during these easy to kill times? Or should the 'easy kill period' be just for a 'special' group of hunters who feel that easier ends where they say it ends?

12-Dec-23
"Good analogy right there Rut."

the hole in the bucket analogy would be a good one...if the hole was getting bigger. unfortunately the hole is the same size...if not smaller.

"Screw the skewed data crap Ricky, go out in the public woods and see for yourself like the rest of us."

so now my data is skewed? what are you basing your opinion on? if my data is crap...why dont you show us better data...instead of just your personal anecdotal evidence...which really only means that you apparently have a hard time finding deer to shoot.

for your information...i hunt both private and public every year. i suspect the fact that you cant seem to find a deer to shoot has very little...if anything...to do with crossbows.

From: Live2Hunt
12-Dec-23
Why do you guys think back when the push to have an archery season did not include the use of xguns? Why didn't Bear and all the others promote xguns? Why have an xgun if they are the same as a compound of nowaday standards, you say they are the same with shooting and killing an animal? Why did it not just stay archery with a bow and arrow drawn at the point of shot? Greed? Money? Easy Button? In WI because of the license I get, I am a xgun hunter? That is what my license says as with others who do not and will not use an xgun. So, skewed charts? Please.

12-Dec-23

Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
"So, skewed charts? Please."

youre from wisconsin right?

from what I can tell... in wisconsin crossbows became legal for everyone in 2013. according the your stats...which im sure youll say are crap...not only has the deer population been steadily growing...the overall deer harvest has remained virtually the same since about 2009...long before crossbow inclusion.

From: Mapleman
12-Dec-23
Why did it not just stay archery with a longbow/recurve- no cams, cables, 80% let off, release triggers, fiber optics -drawn at the point of shot? Greed? Money? Easy Button? You lose much credibility typing xguns repeatedly.

From: Bruce Sugden
12-Dec-23

Bruce Sugden's Link
Spot on Maple. those insisting that compound bows are the equivalent of recurves/longbows are funny. I believe some of them are old enough to remember when compound bows were available but not legal "archery" equipment. If I use this on my compound or recurve do I still qualify as a bowhunter?

From: Live2Hunt
12-Dec-23
Maple, Because the xgun was not wanted and voted against. Xgun lobbyist's came in, as they did in other states, and pushed the powers to be to legalize them, Money/Greed. Easy Button are the graspers of these machines.

Ricky, again with the charts and data from the DNR? I am a licensed xgun user. I am in those stat's. I do not and will not use one. I am not the only one. Deer population growing? Yes I agree, in the Southern farm/own to hunt/leased lands. Populations not growing and are depleting/not rebuilding on the large tracks, 1000's of acres, of public forest. So, those numbers are DNR propaganda to promote more license sales.

From: Live2Hunt
12-Dec-23
LOL, equivalent? No. Are they shot the same? Yes. A tidbit for you, releases were used back in the 30's and 40's for recurves!!! Ricky, Our great DNR, they got sued by a hunting organization because they did not have a wolf hunt when they said they would when they were removed from the endangered list. They were forced to have the hunt and then went against the hunters because they allotted 200 animals shot and hunters killed 216. But, half the tags went to the tribes so instead of 200 animals they said it was 100 because the tribe did not want to hunt wolves.

From: HunterR
12-Dec-23
"HunterR, I don't hear people say "I'm crossbow hunting," I hear them say "I am bow hunting." No where in the definition of a bow quoted above, or anywhere else, does it say that a bow is a "shoulder fired weapon." How can you seriously argue that a shoulder fired, scoped crossgun is equal to a bow, compound or stick? Come on."

Well that's terrible, I hope you corrected all those people and taught them all about the word crossgun. Actually I never said a crossbow is equal to a compound bow, they are not equal, much like a compound isn't equal to a recurve, and a recurve isn't equal to a longbow either. When it comes to deer hunting most people think of it as a hunt that is done with either a bow or a gun. Sorry but that's just the truth. No one expects people to say recurve bow or longbow or compound bow, so expecting everyone to know all the butthurt they might cause a few of you if they don't detail it is expecting a bit much imo. Come to think of it I often hear people say they were gun hunting when in reality they might have been using a rifle, or a handgun, or a shotgun, or a muzzleloader. Clearly all those folks probably were embarrassed and trying to hide something too.

From: Bruce Sugden
12-Dec-23
Live2 - you are still funny. "Xgun lobbyist's came in, as they did in other states, and pushed the powers to be to legalize them, Money/Greed. Easy Button are the graspers of these machines." How do you think compounds became legal?

From: Live2Hunt
12-Dec-23
Grasping again HunterR? Butt hurt? I'm not embarrassed of using a recurve during what was bow season, are you embarrassed of what you use? Why so wound up?

From: HunterR
12-Dec-23
"HunterR, think about it, please. Do you type/talk before thinking about it? Did they just allow xguns for all or has it been a few years? Wolves are a big problem, but the xguns kind of put the kibosh on it from what I have seen. Not many xgunners this year where I was because baiting was illegal, to little to late. No issues with bowhunters prior to xguns here in WI. I have seen and heard a lot of excuses for going with an xgun, most is my arm/shoulder/hand hurts, LOL. No it is because you want to use and easy killing machine that operates like a gun to make the kill easier. Again, this site is about bowhunters/bow shooters shooting and hunting with bows and arrows. Why do you seem so surprised when you get flack for coming on here pumping xguns? Why do you think Pat does not allow adds for them, nor has a section for them? They are not bow hunting, get it, Hello!!!!"

So, live2hunt, I'll try to respond, but in all honesty it's hard to follow that word salad of a post you made, clearly someone is all excited. ;-)

So, are wolves the problem or crossbows? You do know that when you continually take the focus off of wolves to try to blame it on crossbows (because a crossbow apparently beat you up in grade school) that does downplay the wolf issue possibly persuading people to think it's really not that bad. Assuming you hunt (or try to hunt) in wolf country that probably isn't helping your situation.

Also, I did not come here pumping crossbows, I came here to post the truth about Wisconsin as you and another poster or 2 make it seem like it's a deer-less wasteland devoid of deer with an unhuntable population. Any of that sound familiar? Truth be told as you know but can't admit hunters are killing deer and nice deer at that in almost every county in Wisconsin, and a lot of those deer are coming from public lands, in the same counties you say are almost deer-less. Following facebook for a season including just this past season you would see exactly what I'm talking about, tons of people are getting it done. A guy can actually put in some effort and try or give up, cry, and blame it on the rest of the world.

I guess I missed it if someone was giving me flack, my point was people like yourself who constantly bash other hunters while at the same time saying hunters should stick together should really step back and...think things through.

From: Live2Hunt
12-Dec-23
So, are wolves the problem or crossbows? Both HunterR, of course there are deer killed on public, as long as people hunt it there will be, but, not as many though. I hunt there, I know as do others that hunt it. I have seen what it was and what is is now. LOL, Private land put out the deer. Bashing other hunters? not really, bashing what was forced down our throats with xguns? yes. The majority did not want them. MN fought and now lost the same way. The problem MN had was changing the rifle season to the rut. Now, with the wolves they have no deer either on public forest area. Watch the Duluth news.

12-Dec-23
"Ricky, again with the charts and data from the DNR? I am a licensed xgun user. I am in those stat's."

of course youre in those stats...they are inclusive of all weapons. the point is...crossbows...no matter how much you despise them...are not having an adverse affect on the deer herd. I get that you might not be happy about what you are seeing on the exact spot you happen to be hunting but unfortunately the DNR doesnt manage a herd by stand sites.

as to you being a "licensed xgun user"...why? why are you buying a crossbow license? cant you just buy an archery license?

From: Live2Hunt
12-Dec-23
No, I purchase the patrons licence which is all hunting fishing & trapping. Xgun is included and they will not take it off, I have requested every time I buy. If they do not want to take the xgun off my licence because it is a patrons, then I will have to start buying separate which costs more. So, the percent of actual xgun users to kill ratio is off. Many of us who buy a patrons license do not shoot/hunt with an xgun.

12-Dec-23
"Many of us who buy a patrons license do not shoot/hunt with an xgun."

just because it's included in the package, that doesnt mean you have to use it...right? do you use every other tag provided by the patrons license? if not...do you ask them to take off all the particular tags you dont use?

you realize that if you dont happen use the crossbow tag... that wouldnt make any difference in terms of overall deer harvest numbers... right?

and that if many of you that purchase the patrons license dont actually hunt with the crossbow...the published crossbow hunter numbers might actually be higher than the actual number of crossbow hunters...making their use not as high as what you might think...right?

you seem to be so angry about crossbow inclusion that it affects your ability to think clearly.

12-Dec-23
live2hunt...

i cant stand pickled beets. cant stand how they look...cant stand how the smell...cant stand how they taste. i even question the sanity of anyone that would eat a pickled beet.

even so...it seems every salad bar i ever go to has those damn pickled beets sitting there. should i just not put any pickled beets on my salad...or should i demand the restaurant take the price of them off my bill?

From: HunterR
12-Dec-23
live2hunt if you're expecting deer herds like there were in the 90's it just isn't gonna happen and most people know that and have come to accept it, the DNR has made it clear for many years now they want a smaller deer population and really there were WAY too many deer back then, in fact many areas are still over goal to this day.

I disagree that "the majority" in Wisconsin did not want crossbows. Back when all this took place I seem to remember to put it in general terms; A small group of loud whiners that had trouble forming complete sentences and could not control their emotions that were against crossbows, a larger group that were not having emotional outbursts that were for crossbows, and everybody else didn't care one way or the other.

"of course there are deer killed on public, as long as people hunt it there will be,"

I agree, as long as people hunt public in Wisconsin there will be deer killed, and hopefully you agree that if there were no deer there they couldn't be killed.

From: xtroutx
12-Dec-23
RTCG- are you really that clueless to what L2H is saying about the patron's license?

From: RutnStrut
12-Dec-23
"RTCG- are you really that clueless to what L2H is saying about the patron's license?"

Yes, yes he is.

12-Dec-23
"RTCG- are you really that clueless to what L2H is saying about the patron's license?"

maybe i am...please clue me in.

13-Dec-23

Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
Ricky The Cabel Guy's embedded Photo
seems pretty simple to me. the patrons license allows you to do a whole host of things for one price. doesnt mean you actually do them all...you have the choice. its not unlike what the michigan sportsmans license used to be.

if the cost of the things you like to do purchased separately add up to more than the cost of the patrons license...its probably a good value for you. if the cost of the things you like to do purchased separately add up to less than the patrons license...its probably better to purchase them separately.

just because i purchase a patrons license...that doesnt mean im a crossbow hunter...any more than it means i fish for sturgeon.

just because i purchase the salad bar that includes pickled beets...that doesnt mean i have to eat the pickled beets.

what am i missing?

From: xtroutx
13-Dec-23
Right over your head again! Keep googling. So what's wrong with sturgeon fishing and beets? Does Michigan still have the sportsman license? It used to come with a bear tag. I used to get one every year. This is easy.

13-Dec-23
"Right over your head again!"

ok...

"So what's wrong with sturgeon fishing and beets?"

not a thing...i just dont happen to have any interest in them...

...nor am i offended that they are included in the price...

...nor would i ask that they be removed...

...and im sure not concerned that ill be labeled a beet eater or a sturgeon fisherman.

From: xtroutx
13-Dec-23
Its a data collection problem. Very simple, no need to be a beet hater, or ask for a discount at the salad bar.

13-Dec-23
"Its a data collection problem."

that might be...but its also irrelevant (at least to my feeble mind...lol) to the overall harvest numbers...and whether or not crossbows are having an adverse affect on the deer herd...which is what brought the topic of the patrons license up.

maybe you should go back and re-read what was said...and then we can see what went over whos head.

you can start with this statement by live2hunt...

"Ricky, again with the charts and data from the DNR? I am a licensed xgun user. I am in those stat's. I do not and will not use one. I am not the only one."

to which i replied...

"of course youre in those stats...they are inclusive of all weapons. the point is...crossbows...no matter how much you despise them...are not having an adverse affect on the deer herd."

lastly...if this went over my head...apparently im not the only one...

"Not sure how to word this without being rude......not my intent, just an observation.

Your having an issue with how your hunting license is worded and somehow "in your mind" connects you to the xbow is a bit out there .........SERIOUSLY, your despise of the xbow is so extreme that your gonna spend extra $$$ to not have the word on a piece of paper or an all inclusive license in your wallet,,,,, sorry brother thats"""OUT THERE"""

carry on bro...

From: Live2Hunt
13-Dec-23

Live2Hunt's Link
My having a xgun licence decreases the percentage of xgun hunter kill. The deer killed divided by the number of licenses shows the percentages for weapons, correct? This point had nothing to do with affecting the deer herd as it was more for your pulling of the skewed numbers from our DNR. Yes, I do think and know before I type.

Yes, I do despise what was done to a great sport and way of life with Archery and Archery hunting. It is also sad that many put there bows down and quit bowhunting to use these things and think they are a bowhunter. Bowhunting with a bow takes a learned skill this is why they allowed the longer seasons and time period. Again, if compounds were as easy as using an xgun, why are we having this discussion? Why do we have xguns during the archery seasons? They have to be a nightmare for law enforcement for poaching because now they are legal for all to have in your car.

Because I am not a xgun user and will never be I do not want to have my name associated with them. Out there, maybe, maybe not that is my opinion. I can go on and on, deep inside you know what I am saying about these, you just want to justify your using them. What sucks is I am getting to the years of retirement and looked forward to having more time to chase deer, other critters, birds and fish. But because of what has happened in the past 10 years, deer hunting is not what I had before. There is not enough time in a season to get onto quality deer hunting on the public forests. If anything it is the enjoyment of being out there and stump shooting. If you want to loose an hour of your life watch the video attached of hunting Northern WI public lands. This is the same as all forest areas I have been. Oh, they do get shooting with there ML's

From: HunterR
13-Dec-23
"Why do we have xguns during the archery seasons?"

Even if the crossbow season was shortened to the month of October which you mentioned before, it would still be taking place during the archery season and I believe you'd still whine and complain. Although, the ship sailed long ago when it comes to shortening the crossbow season in Wisconsin, that is something else that most of us know, have known for years, and have come to terms with.

13-Dec-23
There is no need to shorten the Wisconsin scoped crossbow season.

13-Dec-23
"My having a xgun licence decreases the percentage of xgun hunter kill. The deer killed divided by the number of licenses shows the percentages for weapons, correct?

not necessarily. your patron license also shows "archery license"...correct? unless you actually report that your kill was from a crossbow...why would they assume your kill was tagged with your crossbow license and not your archery license. why wouldnt your patron license increase the regular archery kill percentage?

either way...it has no bearing on overall deer harvest numbers...which includes all weapons.

"Because I am not a xgun user and will never be I do not want to have my name associated with them. Out there, maybe, maybe not that is my opinion."

your name is no more associated with crossbow hunting than my name is associated with eating beets from the salad bar. thats just nutty...that is my opinion.

From: Live2Hunt
13-Dec-23
Your missing something there Ricky, you have to buy an xgun stamp to hunt with an xgun during the Archery season. You register your deer as an xgun kill or an archery kill. I did not and choose not to purchase an xgun stamp but according to DNR, Stats, etc I am a licensed xgun user/hunter, which I am not. Does that sink in?

Missouri, of course you think that, you have your private deer farms to hunt. Sad thing is, at this point the damage is done from wolves added pressure and harvest with xguns, etc. They could have a year long season or they may as well call it a deer season any weapon. Oh, and to piss the private land owners off, your able to hunt all property's, LOL. Lets event the playing field out, LOL. Actually, I would rather hunt large forests for little than a prison of land for more.

From: Live2Hunt
13-Dec-23
HunterR, the month of October, yes. Call it give and take, or kill percentage per weapon equals length of season with real numbers of xgun stamps/licenses. Xguns were pushed through even though the hunters did not want them, but they are here. Does not mean they should get the whole archery season to use them.

13-Dec-23
If hunters did not want crossbows, why are so many using them ?

From: Live2Hunt
13-Dec-23
Why are so many using cell phones than dial phones? Really Missouri? I don't have time to discuss with you on what happened, who wanted, how many prior to full inclusion. Why did MN just inact full inclusion, because most people wanted them? I don't think so.

13-Dec-23
It is so stupid hunters would use the scoped machines, if they were really against them. Are hunters really that dumb, or is it just a Wisconsin thing ?

From: Live2Hunt
13-Dec-23
Ease of use, no practice, no effort, bang, done. Same with cell cams and the time some put in to hunt now. If the buck they are after does not show on camera they do not hunt, if it does they run out there. I watched Before the Echo podcast with the guy from Stringnoise or something like that and they were discussing this and what is happening to deer hunting. How it has gotten to be people shooting 160 class bucks on private lands being blah. So they are going onto public to really hunt, but it is overcrowding the public lands. Which is funny, they do not come to WI to hunt the public lands, why is that? LOL.

13-Dec-23
Your missing something there Ricky, you have to buy an xgun stamp to hunt with an xgun during the Archery season. You register your deer as an xgun kill or an archery kill. I did not and choose not to purchase an xgun stamp but according to DNR, Stats, etc I am a licensed xgun user/hunter, which I am not. Does that sink in?

yes...it sinks in quite well. if anyone is missing anything it appears to be you. your absolute disdain for crossbows has blinded you to common sense.

if you dont purchase an optional crossbow stamp...that is a dang good indication to the DNR that your not a crossbow hunter. furthermore...if you harvest a deer and you report it as an archery kill...thats also a dang good indication that you didnt use a crossbow.

sounds to me that you are not happy with your hunting experience and you are lashing out and blaming anything (crossbows mainly...but apparently wolves also) other than the actual culprit.

From: Glunt@work
13-Dec-23
Humans have a long history of acting on their own immediate desires at the demise of their long term best interests. That won't change.

From: Live2Hunt
13-Dec-23
"if you dont purchase an optional crossbow stamp...that is a dang good indication to the DNR that your not a crossbow hunter."

Ricky, listen, read, I did inadvertently buy an xgun stamp when I purchased my patrons license because it came with it and I cannot refuse it, I have tried. If I do not buy the patrons and buy separate archery license I do not have to get the xgun stamp then I would not be part of the xgun licensees. What the?

13-Dec-23
" I can go on and on, deep inside you know what I am saying about these, you just want to justify your using them."

ok...youre right. youve convinced me. let it be known that from this point forward...i will continue to not use a crossbow during bow season... like i never have...or any other season for that matter...unless i become physically unable the hunt with the same traditional equipment that i have exclusively been hunting with for decades...and i still have a desire to bow hunt.

heck...ill even call the weapon that i have never used...or likely ever will use a "xgun" if that makes you happy.

who says debates on bowsite cant change minds?

:)

From: HunterR
13-Dec-23
"HunterR, the month of October, yes. Call it give and take, or kill percentage per weapon equals length of season with real numbers of xgun stamps/licenses. Xguns were pushed through even though the hunters did not want them, but they are here. Does not mean they should get the whole archery season to use them."

live2hunt the crossbow season will not be shortened, it's too bad someone talked you into believing that it possibly would when it was created. The separate part means nothing and meant nothing the day it was created. You should be mad at those that lied to you and made you believe that it might be shortened not the folks that simply are partaking in a completely legal sport.

Your "kill percentage per weapon equals season length" also will not happen and I really don't think you'd like it if it did because believe me a whole lot of people would lobby that the compound season should be shorter than the recurve/longbow season too if that was the case. I think that would backfire on you if you really thought it through.

Once again, crossbow users don't have the "whole archery season to use them" they are used in the crossbow season. When you really think about it the separate season pretty much backfired on the whiners because all it really shows is that the overall deer kill is still under goal and it shows that a lot of compound users switched to crossbows, just like a lot of recurve and long bow users switched to compounds back when compounds came out.

And also once again, way more hunters wanted crossbows in Wisconsin than ones that didn't which as others are trying to tell you that is why they are so popular. I know many people that switched to crossbows and wound less deer than they did with compounds, I say good for them a hunter is a hunter in my eyes, as long as they're following the law.

From: HunterR
13-Dec-23
"It is so stupid hunters would use the scoped machines, if they were really against them. Are hunters really that dumb, or is it just a Wisconsin thing ?"

I don't think the majority of hunters in Wisconsin are that dumb, but unfortunately the dumbest are usually the loudest. A lot of hunters were for crossbows which is why so many people are using them. The dumbest also are not good at presenting their case or controlling their emotions, or for that matter they're not really good at talking to the correct people in the correct manner to make things happen. That is why Wisconsin has the crossbow season that it has, that is why so many hunters take part in it, and the majority of people are completely fine with it.

Also I could be mistaken but I don't think there are actually stamps in Wisconsin, I believe it simply is a word or 2 printed on a persons license along with many other words. It's not even a separate piece of paper, simply, a couple of words. I think RTCG's salad bar example is spot on.

From: Live2Hunt
13-Dec-23
Ricky the ultra liberal Democratic? LOL, read some of his discussions on other posts.

From: HunterR
13-Dec-23
live2hunt if you're talking to me I really don't care about his other posts or his political views, I like his salad bar analogy and am able to like it and agree with it even if there is something (or tons of things) I might not agree with him about. That likely is also why even though I don't like or agree with certain hunting methods (bear baiting for example or treeing any animal with dogs to then walk up and shoot it) that doesn't mean I don't support those hunters or that I have to disagree with any and every thought they have.

13-Dec-23
"Ricky the ultra liberal Democratic? LOL, read some of his discussions on other posts."

you crack me up. just last week i was accused of being a right wing extremist...fox news propagandist... trump loving bigot...(among other things...lol)...now im an "ultra liberal democrat?"

see...youve changed my mind again.

from this day forward...i will never vote for a democrat...local ...state...or national.

oh wait...i never have voted for a democrat...local...state...or national...not even once.

bless your heart...

:)

From: KSflatlander
13-Dec-23
"from this day forward...i will never vote for a democrat...local ...state...or national.

oh wait...i never have voted for a democrat...local...state...or national...not even once."

The definition of a "low information voter" LMAO

13-Dec-23
"The definition of a "low information voter"

says the guy who claims a vote for biden was a vote "for the constitution."

i sure hope youre more accurate with your bow than you are with your snipes.

"LMAO" is right. you literally cant make this stuff up.

From: Live2Hunt
13-Dec-23
Ricky, I have to apologize for one thing. I had you mixed up with KC. Sorry bout that.

From: KSflatlander
13-Dec-23
It's no snipe Ricky. My opinion is you're a low information voter...that's a fact. ROTFLMAO.

From: csalem
13-Dec-23
KS invoking voting in any context is hilarious.

13-Dec-23
"My opinion is you're a low information voter...that's a fact."

yep...that is in fact your opinion. its also a fact that in your opinion a vote for biden was a vote "for the constitution."

that speaks volumes about the value of your opinion.

now...do you have an opinion on crossbows or are you just here to snipe?

13-Dec-23
Never a personal attack from me, but have I ever mentioned bow and arrow hunting is declining and will continue. Scoped crossbow bolt machine use is increasing, and will continue.

13-Dec-23
"have I ever mentioned bow and arrow hunting is declining and will continue. Scoped crossbow bolt machine use is increasing, and will continue."

i dont think youve ever mentioned it...at least not that ive noticed.

:)

From: KSflatlander
13-Dec-23
I already posted my opinion on crossbows Ricky. I just don't feel the need to do it over and over and over...kick...kick...kick...yep that horse is dead dead dead.

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