longbow/recurve
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
PECO2 27-Jan-24
Timex? 27-Jan-24
fuzzy 28-Jan-24
fuzzy 28-Jan-24
Tracker 28-Jan-24
Timex? 28-Jan-24
Ollie 28-Jan-24
Phil Magistro 28-Jan-24
Jaquomo 28-Jan-24
Phil Magistro 28-Jan-24
fdp 28-Jan-24
Jaquomo 28-Jan-24
Phil Magistro 28-Jan-24
Highlife 28-Jan-24
Jaquomo 28-Jan-24
Phil Magistro 28-Jan-24
Jaquomo 28-Jan-24
GUTPILEPA 28-Jan-24
DanaC 28-Jan-24
fuzzy 28-Jan-24
fdp 28-Jan-24
Treeline 28-Jan-24
DanaC 28-Jan-24
Phil Magistro 28-Jan-24
fuzzy 28-Jan-24
Phil Magistro 28-Jan-24
Phil Magistro 28-Jan-24
fuzzy 28-Jan-24
fuzzy 28-Jan-24
Phil Magistro 28-Jan-24
Jim Moore 28-Jan-24
Missouribreaks 28-Jan-24
fuzzy 28-Jan-24
Phil Magistro 28-Jan-24
Phil Magistro 28-Jan-24
Phil Magistro 28-Jan-24
Phil Magistro 28-Jan-24
fuzzy 28-Jan-24
fuzzy 28-Jan-24
Phil Magistro 28-Jan-24
PECO2 28-Jan-24
Timex? 28-Jan-24
fdp 28-Jan-24
fuzzy 28-Jan-24
Timex? 28-Jan-24
TonyBear 28-Jan-24
TonyBear 28-Jan-24
bowhunt 28-Jan-24
Thornton 28-Jan-24
Timex? 28-Jan-24
TGbow 28-Jan-24
Timex? 28-Jan-24
Bobbinhood 28-Jan-24
Eric Sprick 28-Jan-24
fuzzy 29-Jan-24
WV Mountaineer 29-Jan-24
DanaC 29-Jan-24
fdp 29-Jan-24
RonP 29-Jan-24
Builder07 29-Jan-24
TGbow 29-Jan-24
Live2Hunt 29-Jan-24
goelk 29-Jan-24
DanaC 30-Jan-24
DanaC 30-Jan-24
Sam 03-Feb-24
TGbow 03-Feb-24
Timex? 03-Feb-24
Sam 05-Feb-24
PECO2 05-Feb-24
Highlife 05-Feb-24
Zbone 05-Feb-24
Phil Magistro 05-Feb-24
shade mt 06-Feb-24
TGbow 06-Feb-24
Timex? 06-Feb-24
Saphead 06-Feb-24
wildwilderness 06-Feb-24
Phil Magistro 06-Feb-24
Zbone 06-Feb-24
Timex? 06-Feb-24
TGbow 07-Feb-24
TGbow 07-Feb-24
From: PECO2
27-Jan-24
For all of you tired of bowsite becoming a non bow hunting site, consider switching to a longbow or a recurve. Then slide over to the leatherwall. Leatherwall is a bow hunting forum.

From: Timex?
27-Jan-24
Peco2.........I was trad bow exclusive for 10 years... Was on the leather wall back in the aol dialup days. Just be mindful that phill will axe any thread not trad bow related. The compound is somewhat tolerated......

From: fuzzy
28-Jan-24
I haven't shot a compound bow since 1996. Started on recurve in '76. Got my first wheelbowxin '91 killed a few deer then went back to stickbows. I registered for this site on the Leatherwall side in early'98. Started spending more time on this side after I actually met and started hunting with and forming personal friendships with several, around 2003

From: fuzzy
28-Jan-24
This site used to have a "Community Forum" which made it easy to ignore the BS and bickering. I miss that.

From: Tracker
28-Jan-24
Totally agree Fuzzy. Amazing how majority of posts are non bowhunting.

From: Timex?
28-Jan-24
There's a reason the leather wall is linked to bowsight......

Just a hunch.......but I'm fairly certain that without the bowsight user numbers. That in return attract sponsors & add revenue...The wall would fade away rather quickly.

From: Ollie
28-Jan-24
Why is that? This site has turned into a political forum.

28-Jan-24
Times - "Peco2.........I was trad bow exclusive for 10 years... Was on the leather wall back in the aol dialup days. Just be mindful that phill will axe any thread not trad bow related. The compound is somewhat tolerated...... ".

That is correct but you make it sound like it's a personal agenda of mine. The fact is, it isn't my personal opinion, Pat wrote it in the forum rules, even if they are a bit dated.

4. All topics must be related to traditional archery, or traditional bowhunting. Discussions on anything other than tradtional archery or bowhunting can be made at the Bowsite.com's Community forum only. The Leatherwall is restricted to traditional archery topics only.

From: Jaquomo
28-Jan-24
Lifer with longbow and recurve until a couple years ago. I tried the LW wall for awhile but got tired of the bigotry, hatred, and ignorance over there.

Example - I started a thread once about carbon arrows. OMG, did the insults fly. "Why don't you shoot a compound?! We don't want you here! Go to the training wheel site!" Etc... Then a couple years later the High Priest George D. Stout declared carbons as acceptable, so the haters moved on.

Then Phil removed my posts over here on the "training wheel" site, where I poked fun at the bigots over there. He threatened to ban me from the Big Game forum for "mischaracterizing" the Leatherwall. I told him I nailed it, and that was why he was butt-hurt.

I love shooting and hunting with trad gear. I've been extremely successful. I can't stand smug, arrogant trad people. Meanwhile, I never see compound shooters ripping on trad guys over here.

28-Jan-24
Lou, you are correct that the personalities over there can be bothersome as the personalities here can be. Many of the traditional shooters are set in their ways and don't handle other opinions well. Just like many people here. It's a common thread in society.

But you aren't correct that I was butt hurt over anything you ever said. I don't care what your opinions are. But I do care if you violate the rules on that or this forum. That seems to be the part you and some others don't grasp. I have nothing personal against anyone. I just apply the forum rules. And I understand some may interpret the rules differently but I use my best judgement.

From: fdp
28-Jan-24
There are some of the most smug, arrogant people on Bowsite that I have ever seen. Maybe not specifically related to the archery threads, but certainly other topics.

From: Jaquomo
28-Jan-24
So there's a rule on the Big Game Forums that says no one can speak ill of the Leatherwall, even if it's the truth? Can you please.show me that rule?

Your exact phrase was that I "mischaracterized the LW", and that was why you pulled my posts. The LW is not a "person". Can you show me that rule as well?

28-Jan-24
No Lou. I’m not getting into this with you. You complain about folks like George Stout then you turn around and act like that.

Have fun.

From: Highlife
28-Jan-24
Lmaooooo you guys need to go out and fling some arrows

From: Jaquomo
28-Jan-24
I spoke the truth. Apparently that bothers you, Phil. I didn't complain about George. Just accurately pointed out that he is a High Priest among the followers of the religion. Now you're mischaracterizing me.

You have a nice day.

28-Jan-24
One last time Lou just so you hopefully hear me, you have no idea what bothers me but I can assure you it isn't you or anything you have ever said or done.

From: Jaquomo
28-Jan-24
Prevagen, Phil.

Have a nice day.

28-Jan-24
I occasionally check in on Leatherwall. I slowed my posting and reading on it when FDP had River Wolf banned by Phil

May check it once every couple months.

From: GUTPILEPA
28-Jan-24
Exactly Altitude Sickness

From: DanaC
28-Jan-24
Started on Leatherwall, but there's only so many threads about Bear bows that I can stand. Yeah, yeah unique take down system blah blah blah blah blah. (ILF rules!)

From: fuzzy
28-Jan-24
DanaC Bear is the ONLY real trad bow. My son has never shot anything but a recurve but shamefully only Shakespeares and Wings. It's an embarrassing thing.

From: fdp
28-Jan-24
Dang I didn't know I had that much power on the Leatherwall. I'm impressed.

From: Treeline
28-Jan-24
I’ve been shooting longbows and recurves for more than a few years.

Spent some time on the LW in years past. Even posted up a few long hunt recaps over there but it is kinda boring.

A lot more variety over here (including a bit of politics and opinions). All keeps the interest level up. Plus, it’s fun to show the compound guys that old school traditional equipment still works to get a nice critter every now and then;-)

From: DanaC
28-Jan-24
Fuzzy, I've owned Bears, still have one on the shelf somewhere. They are mediocre performers, sorry. Get yourself a Dreamcatcher ;-)

28-Jan-24

Phil Magistro's embedded Photo
Phil Magistro's embedded Photo
Altitude - "I occasionally check in on Leatherwall. I slowed my posting and reading on it when FDP had River Wolf banned by Phil. "

This is the frustrating part for me. People just make crap up and, suddenly, it becomes the truth. Where do you get your information? Nobody, ever, has ever been banned because another person requested it and FDP has never asked for anyone to be banned because he knows that wouldn't happen.

Why would you spread lies like that?

Fuzzy - Shakespeare bows are great bows. Ernie Root was way ahead of his time.

From: fuzzy
28-Jan-24
Lol...I've got several stickbows which outperform my Bears. I just keep the Bear bows so I can be "trad"

28-Jan-24
Phil your wording is carefully selected.

you didn’t ban RiverWolf?

And he and RiverWolf were not having a beef ?

28-Jan-24

Phil Magistro's embedded Photo
Phil Magistro's embedded Photo
Wings are great bows too. The Red Wing Hunter is probably the most copied design of all time.

28-Jan-24
You are connecting dots that don't exist. I truly don't recall River Wolf but I will say that anyone that got banned was because they violated the rules, not as a favor to someone else. Violating the rules is the only reason anyone gets banned and, except if something very wrong was done, everyone gets at least a warning so it's never a surprise. Some folks get more than one.

From: fuzzy
28-Jan-24
Phil you're right. I missed a chance at a lefty 50# Red Wing almost 30 years ago and I'm still kicking myself. I've got a PSE Raven I love and an old Quillians Bamboo Longhunter, and of course the great "Frankenbow" I build in 95 with an Oregon riser and Windwalker limbs.

From: fuzzy
28-Jan-24
Phil I remember a warning from you about 10 years ago. We had a brief PM exchange about it. I think you mis interpreted my first reply but I did appreciate the warning and understood my mistake. You may very well be on the verge of another warning that I richly deserve. Lol

28-Jan-24

Phil Magistro's embedded Photo
Phil Magistro's embedded Photo
There are so many older bows that are both works of art and excellent performers. Probably none better at both than the older Howatt bows. The Hunter from the early to mid 60s has the most beautiful rosewood. Plus it was a great shooter.

From: Jim Moore
28-Jan-24
I've been hanging around this site since it was a Prodigy BBS. Thats quite a stint. I didn't post much on it until the Leatherwall/Bowsite took off. Any of you remember the chat room stuff going on? That was pretty fun. Like a few others though, I've drifted away from both, but still check in from time to time. The LW was a pretty fun place and when I need some info on something, they have a nice search feature via Keyword or Handle.

I think a lot of problem with many responses is the inflection, which brings the ad hominem, etc. I always try to argue or opine on forums much Iike I would carry on a conversation around a camfire, cafe, cab of a pickup truck. Again, it's an inflection thing, the way one responds. There are strong, passionate opinions about our sport, hunting, politics, etc. Some folks get assed-up quickly, others not. Most are not going to change their minds, anyway. I can respectfully disagree and move on, stay in the game with cogent opiniions hopefully backed by reliable sources or experiences, or let myself get pulled into a pissing contest. In the end, you will know my stance and I'll know yours.

These two sites are great sources of information, I usually just use them for a research source and follow a few threads both on here and the LW (though I wish that the BS had a better search function and the LW classifieds offered a better way to filter and find things). All in all, it's been a pretty good and stood the test of time. Apologies for the lengthy opinion.

28-Jan-24
why are people discussing editing decisions when doing so is clearly against the rules?

"No discussion, or challenge, to our editing policy are allowed within the conferences."

28-Jan-24
I have found useful information, the rest is human nature.

From: fuzzy
28-Jan-24
Woof woof!

28-Jan-24
Ricky, I expected someone to post this question and thought you may be one of the ones to do it. I find it ironic because if you really want to follow the rules go read #8 about habitual debaters.

The reason I engage in this from time to time is because I think it answers the misconceptions that are out there. But probably not.

28-Jan-24

Phil Magistro's embedded Photo
Phil Magistro's embedded Photo
For the Bear lovers.

28-Jan-24

Phil Magistro's embedded Photo
Phil Magistro's embedded Photo
And so someone doesn't get the idea I'm mired in the past, ILF bows have opened up a whole new world to many of us.

28-Jan-24
Jim, It's good to see your name. There are still a few of us that migrated here from the Prodigy BBS.

From: fuzzy
28-Jan-24
Nice collection Phil but they're all wrong handed

From: fuzzy
28-Jan-24
Yep RCG seems to stumble on 3, 7 and 8. ;)

28-Jan-24
There's a lefty Bear Kodiak Magnum in there. :)

I have lots more photos but didn't want to bore everyone. These are all bows that I've either owned or refinished over the years. I was never a collector, just a shooter. I only have a few bows now.

From: PECO2
28-Jan-24
"Meanwhile, I never see compound shooters ripping on trad guys over here." Maybe it was on another site, but I've seen many comments from compound shooters in reference to trad shooters. Comments like "they have no business shooting at live animals, most can't hit the side of a barn, from the inside." Or, trad shoots are real fun at 3D shoots, they spend all day trying to find their arrows." etc. etc.

28-Jan-24
"Ricky, I expected someone to post this question and thought you may be one of the ones to do it. I find it ironic because if you really want to follow the rules go read #8 about habitual debaters."

i was clearly be facetious but i guess we have a lot in common... :)

From: Timex?
28-Jan-24
I will defend Phil's fairness..... Well sort of...... I once posted a smoked tuna thread on the wall..... The brining process

The brown sugar & black pepper glase...

The smoking temps & time

Along with pics for each process.......

It got the ax.......I complained to Phil via pm......asked how come the . What's for supper thread was allowed......that's clearly not trad bow related either.

The what's for supper thread went away.

Myself personally didn't see any harm in either.....

But Phil was fair about it.

From: fdp
28-Jan-24
I've had posts deleted too. And everyone of them should have been.

From: fuzzy
28-Jan-24
Pup it's quite unnecessary to point out that your comments are facetious. That's a given. ;)

From: Timex?
28-Jan-24

Timex?'s embedded Photo
Timex?'s embedded Photo
Timex?'s embedded Photo
Timex?'s embedded Photo
The first recurve I bought. A hoyt ram reflex. Bought 1979 - 80. Killed my first trad deer with it....fast forward 30 years had , Sarge. Sam Dunham on the leather wall convert the riser with ilf plates & put a set of Morrison max 1 limbs on it.....some old some new , one bow ill never part with.

From: TonyBear
28-Jan-24

TonyBear's embedded Photo
TonyBear's embedded Photo
Pulled this one out of a bin at a Thrift store. $7 cause it didn't have a string.

From: TonyBear
28-Jan-24

TonyBear's embedded Photo
TonyBear's embedded Photo
Ben Pearson Javelina, touched up the finish, new string and it shoots great.

From: bowhunt
28-Jan-24
Guys

Please don’t derail a thread titled Longbow/recurve with pictures of recurves!:)

From: Thornton
28-Jan-24
I actually own more traditional bows than I do compounds. Haven't killed a deer with one though in over 20 years. I've often thought of "purifying" my bowhunting by going back, but haven't done so yet.

From: Timex?
28-Jan-24

Timex?'s embedded Photo
Timex?'s embedded Photo
Timex?'s embedded Photo
Timex?'s embedded Photo
Timber hawk strike xt......

Without question...one of the finest grips on a recurve ever....another bow I'll never part with....

From: TGbow
28-Jan-24
I started with recurves in 1974/75. Never owned a compound. I have nothing against compounds whatsoever...I just love recurves n longbows. Since Phi is an administrator, he has to uphold forum rules.

From: Timex?
28-Jan-24
Thornton......i love shooting them but with my arthritis I just can't handle the weight under hunting circumstances. With a half hour warm up in the back yard I start stacking arrows. But cold first shot, forget it......

Shooting a 50# Oneida Phoenix now.

From: Bobbinhood
28-Jan-24
Been shooting trad. since the early 60's! I have killed a ton of game with my curves and longbows! I have dropped down in weight. But let them get close and as long as my heads are sharp and my aim is true, things still work out! I've killed everything from small game to Moose, elk and Caribou, antelope, bear and a whole bunch of deer! I don't see changing, if it isn't broke don't fix it! At 75, I'm still shooting 53"s which is good enough! Good Luck to All!

From: Eric Sprick
28-Jan-24

Eric Sprick's embedded Photo
Eric Sprick's embedded Photo
Here ya go bowhunt Wes Wallace Royal

29-Jan-24
people are people regardless of what kind of bow they shoot. lots of good information to be had over on lw...lots of crap too...same here. i tend to enjoy sites where people can have discussions on a variety of topics... just like they would around a campfire or at deer camp.

From: fuzzy
29-Jan-24
RCG for that I'd recommend, Facebook, Twitter/X , etc.

29-Jan-24

WV Mountaineer's embedded Photo
WV Mountaineer's embedded Photo
Maddog hybrid. I love this bow.

From: DanaC
29-Jan-24

DanaC's embedded Photo
DanaC's embedded Photo
My 'indoor' bow, PSE riser, WW limbs

From: fdp
29-Jan-24
Mad Dog, Mike Mecredy built a fine bow for sure.

From: RonP
29-Jan-24
i frequent both sites and the main difference i see is bowsite is (or used to be) mainly about hunting experiences, methods, and adventures. the leatherwall has always been mostly about the gear and shooting, and less about actual hunting.

From: Builder07
29-Jan-24

Builder07's embedded Photo
Builder07's embedded Photo
Wow, Jim Moore X2

From: TGbow
29-Jan-24
I have a Topoint Slither riser coming..I'm gonna dabble in the ILF some. I like longbows but it seems I always end up back on a recurve.

From: Live2Hunt
29-Jan-24
Went back to shooting/hunting with a recurve for 8 years now. Gave the compounds away to the boys, ain't going back!!!

From: goelk
29-Jan-24
I've shot recurve all my life than few years ago started shooting a longbow. Lots of fun!!

From: DanaC
30-Jan-24

DanaC's embedded Photo
DanaC's embedded Photo
My 'outdoor' bow, Morrison G3 riser with Max1 limbs.

From: DanaC
30-Jan-24

DanaC's embedded Photo
DanaC's embedded Photo
How did that happen???

From: Sam
03-Feb-24
Are Black Widow bows worth the money? : )

From: TGbow
03-Feb-24
Sam, the answer to that is subjective. If you happen to like Black Widow bows and you want to pay the money for one then it would be worth it..to you. I've had so many bows I couldn't began to name them all. I can't buy n sell the bows like I use to. I do have a To point Slither riser on the way, it's an ILF riser, will be shooting Samick limbs on it but plan to get me some Nika N3 limbs for the riser. One of the best shooting wood riser bows I've ever shot is my Southwest Archery Spyder takedown...$160. It's all about how much you want to spend and what you like. Lots of good custom bows out there and lots of good production bows also, especially in the ILF arena.

From: Timex?
03-Feb-24
Back in my trad bow days, I went through about a 5 year period that I was looking for """The one magical " bow that was gonna make me a great shot,,,,,,I finally learned that it's not the bow !!! Although I did shoot some better than others. An original Habu 62#@26" & 60" was the best shooter I ever had, killed a lot of deer with it ,,,very similar to a black widow ma 2 ,,, the weight just got to be too much over the years. another great shooter for me was a kanati hybrid r.d. longbow. A Lewis hollow Archery takedown longbow, a 2 tracks, hogamo flatbow, a Mcbroom longbow, an acs longbow with Adcock limbs,, I let so many fantastic bows go searching for that special, one,

Honestly today with the ever increasing $$$ of custom handmade bows,,,,I'd find an ilf riser I really liked, & start searching for that special set of limbs.

From: Sam
05-Feb-24
TGbow, I was just goofing, since this became sort of a Leatherwall themed thread I threw out what was probably the most wore out question ever posted on the LW. However, thank you for the thoughtful response.

From: PECO2
05-Feb-24
What is the saying over on the leatherwall. "I wouldn't give you a nickle for a barrel full of black widow bows?"

From: Highlife
05-Feb-24
Yup if you ain't pulling a Lee you should get yourself a compound.

From: Zbone
05-Feb-24

Zbone's embedded Photo
Zbone's embedded Photo
Zbone's embedded Photo
Zbone's embedded Photo
Zbone's embedded Photo
Zbone's embedded Photo
Zbone's embedded Photo
Zbone's embedded Photo
"I wouldn't give you a nickle for a barrel full of black widow bows?"

Well, I have a like new SAV Ironwood still in box after refinished (without a name inscribed) by Black Widow in storage that I'll probably never shoot will let go at a good price but it's gonna take more than a nickle...8^)

05-Feb-24
It was $20 for a barrel ….. seems to me Paul Rianha (probably wrong spelling) started that.

Timex - “Back in my trad bow days, I went through about a 5 year period that I was looking for """The one magical " bow…”.

You are a much faster learner than me.

From: shade mt
06-Feb-24
I spend time on both sites, It's all good. People are people no matter where you go.

The biggest problem with internet forums is you only see what they type, and folks base opinions on that. sometimes they are right, often they are not.

I like to hunt and fish, fact is a big part of my life evolves around those two things. But politics etc....effect us all, regardless if your a one stringer, a wheel and cable guy, or even (gasp) a crossbow hunter (i whispered that) What a guy hunts with, has no bearing on what i hunt with........who you vote for, very well could.

From: TGbow
06-Feb-24
Back in the 70s it was just "archery". I've searched for that "Holy Grail" bow but I think I've come full circle after 48 years..lol And, I discovered there's no magical bow. My son has some shoulder problems, he shoots a compound at times but he's working his way back to shooting a recurve. He's had some physical issues ever since he got out of the Marines..as long as he is in the woods enjoying himself, that's all that matters to me...be it recurve, compound or long gun.

From: Timex?
06-Feb-24
Phil........ When I was young I was strong. Shot that 62@26 habu with ease, the only instruction I ever had trad bow ,wise, was aFred G Ashbel book, ....pic a spot, concentrate, draw, anchor, tunnel vision on that spot release, I was good, looking back my favorite distance to practice was around 40 yards, it was my point on , but I had zero knowledge of gap shooting,......then along came the internet,, and it ruined it for me....soon as I read how all these others shot, I started """thinking"""" about how I shot instead of just shooting,,,, then came the search for the "one" that was gonna bring the magic back, & I just never found it again,,,,, not saying I'm a bad shot these days, just saying that me & that habu was something truly special for many years,

These days a freezer full of venison is important to me. With which weapon i used to put it there, not so much !!!

From: Saphead
06-Feb-24
Timex, Great post

06-Feb-24
Zbone, what are the specs on that Widow?

06-Feb-24
Times, I know what you mean. I taught myself to shoot watching Fred Bear and others. It worked for me. Fast forward a couple of decades and I learned I had been doing it all wrong. About this time target panic set in and really messed things up. It didn't matter what bow I bought - except when I used a compound for a few years because of shoulder problems - my shooting was OK to about fifteen yards but no longer. With a compound I never had target panic. It took me almost ten years to get past that.

I kept buying bows, partly to try them out and partly looking for the Holy Grail. It wouldn't have mattered eventually. In the past ten years or so I've had to sell off my 65 and 55# bows because I can't shoot them any longer.

I still buy and sell from time to time but not nearly like I did years ago. I've used the same model bows for hunting for the past twenty years. But I do get a bug now and then to try something new. The latest one is a 15" Backland ILF riser that I traded for.

And now I find I'm not using the rotational draw. The internet is a terrible thing. :)

From: Zbone
06-Feb-24
wildwilderness - Right Handed Black Widow Ironwood SAV 56” AMO, 59# @28” (trapezoid limbs)

From: Timex?
06-Feb-24
Phil.....

Currently hunting with a 50# Oneida Phoenix.....

Have 3 trad bows I'll never part with, 2, I posted pics of earlier in this thread, my first ever recurve, converted to ilf with Morrison max 1 limbs, the other a timberhalk strike xt, one sweet little bow, the third I haven't mentioned is a Dan quillen, Archery traditions, patriot recurve, I called Dan's shop in Athens GA. Spoke with Dan personally, said he had a used patriot in great shape & I bought it,,,, 62" 65@28 ....shot that bow for many years, before i bought the habu, it now has a set of Jeffrey royal hunter 50# limbs on the patriot riser & the 3rd bow I'll never part with.

From: TGbow
07-Feb-24
Todd, I miss Mr Dan, he was a good guy. My brother took him alligator gar fishing one time. He was a true woodsman.

From: TGbow
07-Feb-24
Todd, I miss Mr Dan, he was a good guy. My brother took him alligator gar fishing one time. He was a true woodsman.

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