Mathews Inc.
Wyoming Conservation Stamp increase
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
Mule Power 30-Mar-24
Stoneman 30-Mar-24
cnelk 30-Mar-24
Mule Power 31-Mar-24
Huntcell 31-Mar-24
TEmbry 31-Mar-24
KB 31-Mar-24
Nick Muche 31-Mar-24
Mule Power 31-Mar-24
Nick Muche 31-Mar-24
Mule Power 31-Mar-24
Lost Arra 31-Mar-24
Mule Power 31-Mar-24
Grey Ghost 31-Mar-24
WV Mountaineer 31-Mar-24
Mule Power 31-Mar-24
Grey Ghost 31-Mar-24
MichaelArnette 31-Mar-24
HDE 31-Mar-24
Mule Power 31-Mar-24
DonVathome 31-Mar-24
DonVathome 31-Mar-24
DonVathome 31-Mar-24
Grey Ghost 31-Mar-24
WV Mountaineer 31-Mar-24
Jethro 31-Mar-24
WV Mountaineer 31-Mar-24
Mule Power 31-Mar-24
Mule Power 31-Mar-24
Mule Power 31-Mar-24
Nick Muche 31-Mar-24
HDE 31-Mar-24
Mule Power 31-Mar-24
HDE 31-Mar-24
wytex 31-Mar-24
Mule Power 31-Mar-24
Wymuley 31-Mar-24
HDE 31-Mar-24
Stoneman 01-Apr-24
Bowfreak 01-Apr-24
Grey Ghost 01-Apr-24
Brotsky 01-Apr-24
WV Mountaineer 01-Apr-24
Mule Power 01-Apr-24
Mule Power 01-Apr-24
Groundhunter 01-Apr-24
Mule Power 01-Apr-24
PushCoArcher 01-Apr-24
ILbowhntr 01-Apr-24
ILbowhntr 01-Apr-24
Firsty 01-Apr-24
Franzen 06-Apr-24
From: Mule Power
30-Mar-24
I don’t mind spending money to hunt as a non-resident. I have always supported the resident side of most arguments in the western states. I have lived there. I will admit that I feel non-residents at least deserve a certain amount of respect since there is no question we pay the bills. All of the bills for all practical purposes. They could never begin to survive without us. We watch our license prices skyrocket. We support their businesses. Special general at $2000 now. I just saw today that the conservation stamp cost went from $12.50 to $21.50. That’s nearly double. Not a big amount of money. But to me, it’s the principal. Cannot understand why they can’t ever look at residents for more money for their licenses. Not just the conservation stamp. The licenses in general. It’ll never happen, but I wish those states would someday pay the price for biting the hand that feeds them. It’s not the money it’s the principal. It’s flat out disrespect in my opinion. You have your wilderness areas. You have the ease of drawing licenses. Pay some of your own damn bills for a change. What will the money from the increased be used for? More access. Access to what? I hunt national Forest. If you want to go play the private public fence line game pay your own way. Just like the new unlimited cow tags. Follow the money. It’s always coming from non-residence and going to residents. I’m on a lot of the different Wyoming Facebook group pages and there is nothing but outright hatred toward non resident hunters. Those guys should be thanking us. If they had to pay their own bills they’d need a lot more than an elk tag to fill the freezer. Rant over….

Meanwhile $110 for a deer point Colorado after buying a small game license that I’ll never use. Maybe Wyoming isn’t so bad after all.

From: Stoneman
30-Mar-24

Stoneman's Link
Here is the full article outlining the increase which went into effect July 2021.

From: cnelk
30-Mar-24
I paid $83 just to get my qualifying licenses as a Resident in Colorado

From: Mule Power
31-Mar-24
At least you can use it. I’ve purchased 13 small game licenses, and have yet to shoot a chipmunk. Why don’t they just skip the smoke screen and charge us 100 bucks for the point.

From: Huntcell
31-Mar-24
Bought the lifetime conservation stamp back in 2000 so one and done. now more money ahead with increase.

From: TEmbry
31-Mar-24
At least you can use it. I’ve purchased 13 small game licenses, and have yet to shoot a chipmunk. Why don’t they just skip the smoke screen and charge us 100 bucks for the point.

Pittman-Robertson Act matching funds don’t apply to point fees but do apply to license sales.

From: KB
31-Mar-24
“Why don’t they just skip the smoke screen and charge us 100 bucks for the point.”

After land area the other half of Pittman Robertson dollars are divvied out based on licenses sold. Really, it’s surprising states like Wyoming, Montana and Kansas even offer a points-only option these days.

From: Nick Muche
31-Mar-24
You could just move out there and be a resident.

From: Mule Power
31-Mar-24
Stoneman keep reading. So far they have raised over 3.5 million and gained access to 6500 acres. That’s the size of one ranch. Not even a big one. Yes it gives access to more land. Public land. Gee thanks. I’m a mountain Hunter. I couldn’t care less about that crap. They should just make it pay to play. If you want to hunt there, write the check and have at it.

From: Nick Muche
31-Mar-24
Move to the mountains.

From: Mule Power
31-Mar-24
Is that your answer for everything Nick? If I want to hunt moose, should I move to Alaska? What if I want to hunt Cape buffalo move to Africa? When it comes to hunting, I have moved to the mountains. Long long time ago. Which is why all the private land bullshit that affects my hunting is annoying.

From: Lost Arra
31-Mar-24
mule power: the Wyoming residents on Facebook may not accurately represent all Wyoming residents. I have not experienced any hatred. But following the Wyo legislature you will see a dysfunctional group of folks who couldn't agree on a pizza order even if someone else is paying.

From: Mule Power
31-Mar-24
Totally agree Lost Arra. I have plenty of friends out there. Communicate with some other good people over on rockslide. I guess Facebook is Facebook. The resident on there make no apologies for despising and resident hunters.

From: Grey Ghost
31-Mar-24
"It’s not the money it’s the principal."

You could always choose to not pay the fees and stay home, you know...out of "principle". But I suspect your conviction to the principle isn't quite that strong.

31-Mar-24
The next time a looney group tries to ban a form of hunting or, propose legislative plans that negatively impact hunting, HOWL and all the residents of western states could just send the donate links to resident hunters too. But they don’t.

It’s funny how the NR is the problem until it’s time to replace the money gap created by limiting their access. Or, implanted residents want to ban a form of hunting. Then the Nonresident and his money is ‘da bomb.

From: Mule Power
31-Mar-24
GG…. Or I could just skip the license purchasing process altogether. I have always admired the members of the Boston tea party. People like that used to be called heroes. Now they are bitch slapped for bucking “the system”.

Good point WV!

From: Grey Ghost
31-Mar-24
"GG…. Or I could just skip the license purchasing process altogether."

That's exactly what I meant. The only true way to show your opposition to the increased price of NR tags, and other fees, is to not purchase them. Whining about it on a public forum doesn't do a damn thing.

31-Mar-24
I prefer the western states sick it to non residents and make the guides and non resident landowners wait in line with the rest of us. If Colorado would have done this years ago it might be a completely different political environment there as there would have been a true incentive to move there as an outdoorsman/woman.

On the flip side these western states may find out that as they penalize us nonresidents more and more they end up making more of us move there and end up with greater resident pressure because of it.

I just paid $1350 to apply for elk in Montana and if I draw it will cost 1150 I believe to hunt general. It is getting crazy

From: HDE
31-Mar-24
The only true stance any R should have against any NR is a small portion of available tags at a reasonable elevated fee. What WY did recently, and what many other states are doing, with the increased fee is absolutely stupid.

From: Mule Power
31-Mar-24
GG are you done whining about us yet? Every comment voicing in opinion is considered whining by people who don’t agree with it. Feel free to click on a different thread. Doesn’t sound like you have any real solutions. Mine is to charge those people another measly $10. Is that so bad. Or is it the principal? Why should we pay another dime when we can just sell expensive camping trips to people who mostly don’t have the time to figure out what they’re doing here anyway. And bitch about them. It’s like asking welfare recipients if they have thought about paying their own bills or if they would mind peeing in a cup. Heaven forbid. I pay more money for licenses in Pennsylvania. I’ll probably never be lucky enough to draw an elk tag. Maybe you will. If you do look me up and I’ll take the time to help you kill the biggest bull possible. You can even borrow all of my camp gear.

From: DonVathome
31-Mar-24
Mule power I completely agree. I also think the only thing we can do is stop buying and applying in WY. I will not BUT I have cutting my WY apps back. For the first time ever I am not applying for bison or mnt goat. It is likely I will drop moose, even though I probably will draw in 5 years.

I can afford it and price increases help my draw odds. That said it is not fair and it is bait and switch. Please before you argue it is not bait and switch research what that term means legally. Wy has done a bait and switch with the NR - and the biggest bait and switch is still coming (eliminating or drastically watering down our moose & sheep points).

I am working very very hard to spend as little in WY as I can when I do hunt there. Buy nothing, save whenever I can. Go out to dinner a lot less and go cheaper places. No apps. I went with 2 guys instead of 3 for the first time to the elk refuge.

I wish dropping out helped. It does not. They raise prices more. Sheep points went from $7 to $100 overnight and apps dropped in half. That means revenue INCREASED 7.5x. They made more money. They have figured this out the NR combined will never, ever be able to stick it to them. To much NR demand and to greedy WY G&F.

A good example of WY is how they treated my cow bison tag in 2022. Here is the link to my post. Most important is to note they were very interested in my case - but only because I mentioned they gave my friend a refund. All they cared about was why they gave it to him and how they made a mistake and did not screw the NR that time. Once I realized that my WY opinion took a poop.

From: DonVathome
31-Mar-24
https://forums.bowsite.com/tf/bgforums/thread.cfm?threadid=499335&forum=5

From: DonVathome
31-Mar-24
And yes I know spending less hurts the resident economy and not G&F. That said if enough NR do it and make it known it might start to trickle down. I have many good friends in WY and I gently share this info with them. Many have no idea how hard the NR is hit. On my 2022 sheep hunt I shared what I spend in WY with about a half dozen residents. Most wer sheep hunters. None knew what we spend - nonrefundable. About half thought I mean my refundable costs, they did not seem to believe me when I said I spent aprox $600 - $700 nonrefundable. They would respond "but you get that back if you do not draw right"? When I said no I could tell they did not believe me.

Keep in mind these were sheep hunters, generally far more serious than the average Joe IMO.

From: Grey Ghost
31-Mar-24
Mule Power, I gave you my solution. If you want to make a stand on "principle" stop applying for and buying NR tags. As long as you keep paying, they will keep charging. Pretty simple, really. I've killed plenty of elk on my own, but thanks for your offer to help.

31-Mar-24
Everybody wants all the cake. The NR wants to hunt without living there, affordable. The nonresident wants to hunt at little cost. One thing is for certain, nothing we do in hunting is free.

I’m all for resident preference. In any state. That’s the way it should be. But, you are always going to have guys like Peco and Grey Ghost. Both on each end of the resident argument. One wants to spend $12 and the other wouldn’t mind paying enough to make up the gap of less NR money.

I understand resident woes too. What I don’t understand is the wise guy attitude that resident hunters don’t need nonresident dollars. At least until the new migration of liberal loonies wants to take their resident hunting opportunities. Then it’s a rush to raise money from nonresidents to fight it.

Just like grey beard said above, you can stay home nonresidents. Be quiet. Shut up until asked your opinion. And be ready to send your donation when asked for it.

From: Jethro
31-Mar-24
I understand the sentiment, but the stamp price increase couldn’t be that bad if it took 3 application years to notice it.

I’m fortunate, I don’t do Facebook. So all the WY residents I’ve ever met, I got along with. Hunting, vacationing, job interviews, nobody ever showed any hostility toward this easterner.

31-Mar-24
Yep.

From: Mule Power
31-Mar-24
It didn’t take three years to notice it. It took three years to notice that 3 1/2 million dollars later they haven’t done shit.

From: Mule Power
31-Mar-24
And if you notice, I never said anything about the $2000 elk license. We have the option, whether or not to apply for a special license. But here’s my perspective on that. Point creep got out of control. The difference in odds between the special and regular draws was narrowing. So now a preference point wasn’t as appealing to their customers. Neither was spending the extra money for a little bit of an increase in drawing odds. So to solve that they jacked the price through the roof to try to deter some people from the special draw. Of course that does work although it doesn’t help point creep. It just makes their high dollar license look more appealing. Odds in the special random this year should be the best ever. It has terrible effect on regular draw applicants. My question is since that’s your solution and it netted in a huge increase in profits. And the number of licenses was increased, resulting in more revenue…. what are you going do with that money? Maybe you could say hey everyone as a result of solving our point creep problem we’re gonna drop the conservation stamp price back down to where it used to be. Yeah I won’t hold my breath for anything like that. Maybe we should take all that money and give free licenses to all resident hunters. After all they do have to tolerate those winters in order to be able to hunt there. That’s the one thing I hear all the time. If you want to live here, feel free but you probably can’t handle the winters. Maybe we could use all that extra money to provide free firewood.

From: Mule Power
31-Mar-24
Here’s a little analogy for you. You own a house near the beach. You have an apartment above the garage. Maybe a little guesthouse outback. You rent that out to me for two weeks during the summer. It helps offset a portion of your bills. A bit g portion. More than half! You have all the normal bills. A mortgage. Utilities. Your hunting license cost for the place where you live. I was already helping you pay your bills but now the cost of them has gone up. So what do you do? You raise the cost of rent for the two weeks I spend there to pay all of your bills except for say $100. I can take it or leave it. You can tell me that if I want you’ll sell me the house And I could come live there. I own a house in my home state. I’m not 29 I’m 59. I have a career there. Elderly parents to take care of. Children in school. I guess that is an option but it’s more of a sarcastic answer than anything. An obvious slap in the face. If you were even paying half of your own bills, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. But instead you make no apologies for the completely lopsided situation. And to make matters worse, you tell me that when I am there, I’m nothing but an inconvenience and you’d really rather I didn’t come at all. Without a doubt this is not the sentiment of a lot of Wyoming residents. But those people aren’t usually very vocal. The people who speak up or more often than not the ones who don’t care for out of state hunters. I totally understand that sentiments too. Why don’t you just eliminate nonresident hunting opportunities then and we’ll see how that works out for you. There are lots of states with elk that do not offer licenses to non-residence. You offered me a solution. There is yours.

From: Nick Muche
31-Mar-24
Are you venting?

From: HDE
31-Mar-24
^^^ not a good analogy because the increased rent is applied the same to everyone for a commodity subject to real supply and demand . Increased NR license (and stamp) fees are disproportionately larger than it is for R's.

From: Mule Power
31-Mar-24
Ha ha yes Nick. I found mouse poop in my beef jerky from 2022 and it pushed my buttons.

Scratch that analogy. You don’t own a guest house or an apartment or anything I use. I pitch a tent in the woods down the street from your house. I’m never there either. I’m at the public beach from one hour before sunrise to an hour after dark. lol

From: HDE
31-Mar-24
^^^ no problem there. You're charged the same day use fee at the beach as anyone else. Same for the camp site.

From: wytex
31-Mar-24
Wow !! Guess who I won't be looking forward to running into any time soon.

By the way residents pay that same price for the conservation stamp.

From: Mule Power
31-Mar-24
You’re one of the good guys Wytex. Obviously not on the Wyoming Task Force. That’s a whole other subject.

From: Wymuley
31-Mar-24
I am STRONGLY in agreement with Grey Ghost.

Don't like the rules? Don't play.

From: HDE
31-Mar-24
^^^^ and we don't. Simple.

From: Stoneman
01-Apr-24
Mule Power, I got a little more out of the article as far acquired benefits for hunters and fishermen. (bang for the buck so to speak) Regardless, perception is reality for each of us as individuals as it should be.

As a Colorado resident I felt privileged to go hunting - fishing - trapping - and basically enjoying most of what Colorado outdoors had to offer from about the 4th grade on paying what ever fee increases went along with that privilege.

It was a pretty good run however I don’t see myself spending much time or money in Colorado in the future unless I pull a premium tag via one of the many lottery’s. I could list many examples of how Colorado has left both resident and non resident sportsmen and sportswomen high and dry. It shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone anymore.

This holds true for any tags or stamps I purchase to hunt or fish other states as a non resident. It’s the price of doing business and it’s not like it was a surprise how much something was going to cost. More to point, where do I get off thinking I know how to manage their agency with just a fraction of the information needed to make difficult decisions.

Now as a Wyoming resident I am more than happy to pay for Wyoming’s conservation stamp along with license fees to enjoy Wyoming’s outdoors, specifically the hunting and fishing.

I have already met many nice folks in the woods, on the lakes, and streams both resident and non resident. Not once do I remember the price of stamps or tags or how the funds are being managed being discussed regardless if they were residents or nonresidents.

I suppose everyone has their perspective as to what is important to them. Personally if it bothered me enough to bitch about how states managed their game and fish agencies specifically pertaining to the use of license fees and conservation stamps I probably would stop participating with those states.

From: Bowfreak
01-Apr-24
I’ll keep paying to play but it is not sustainable. Eventually there aren’t going to be enough of us, resident and non resident combined, to pay the bills.

From: Grey Ghost
01-Apr-24
"It’s not the money it’s the principal."

^^^Says the OP, then he proceeds to post about the money at least 10 more times. LOL!

I ran the numbers. If Colorado cut 25% of all NR elk tags, residents would have to pay around $250 for a tag to make up the tag revenue difference. I'd do that in a heartbeat.

From: Brotsky
01-Apr-24
Funny how the same guys bitching about free market pricing on tags and licenses are a lot of the same guys calling people socialist on other threads. My how the turn tables turn.....

01-Apr-24
Yep.

From: Mule Power
01-Apr-24
Stoneman I’m not going anywhere. I’m not one of those guys that says screw them I’m gonna burn my points and they’ll never see another dollar from me. I don’t plan on taking my ball and going home. I’m invested. My elk hunting days are numbered. All of my gear is in Wyoming along with the friends that I hunt with. I know my hunting areas well. What you’re hearing is a guy who is feeling the squeeze. I always thought that my knees would give out before my hunting opportunities. Now I’m not so sure about that. I guess the solution to walk away and not participate is a valid one. But I could go on every one of the political threads here and say the same thing. There are other nice places in the world to live. If you don’t like the United States, why don’t you quit paying to live here and go somewhere else? The problem with the federal government is the same. Here a billion there a billion what’s another trillion. Half the time they admit straight up they don’t know where the money went. With the western states it is here a million there a million. I could take the time to dig up the numbers, but I’m pretty sure that they’re income is rising a lot faster than the bills are. And I don’t mind paying. As long as the money goes to good use. That means benefiting as many people as possible to. Not only do I feel they didn’t accomplish enough with the money made from the increase, but I also feel that it benefited a small minority of people.

I could tell you all that things I like about Wyoming. I wouldn’t be expressing my thoughts if I didn’t love the place. Everybody I know and cross pads without there are good people. The locals know where I camp. At the end of my hunt either a local or one of the outfitters stops at my camp to load up all of my unused firewood. On Wednesday nights I go into town for local talent night. I know all the people who sing and play guitar there and they know me. I have a very good relationship with the biologist. The people I lease horses from are super nice and helpful people. The list goes on. But every once in a while we have to vent a little pressure about one thing or another. Like I said, I didn’t care about the $2000 elk licenses. But what’s going on with these little increases everywhere are the little straws that broke the camels back for me. It was only a $10 increase right? Shouldn’t be that big of a deal right? Try telling some of the residents that non res hunters are all tapped out and so we need to raise the cost of their elk license $10. The good old task force would freak out.

It’s blatant discrimination and disrespect. Just like the wilderness law. Ok I’ll shut up and go back to the funnies thread or something.

From: Mule Power
01-Apr-24
Is that a hard to understand GH??? It’s the principle of what they do with the money, the majority of which came from non residents. The discrimination.

There is a very simple solution to point creep. But it means less revenue instead of more so we’ll just keep heading toward the rich man’s game instead.. And for the record this is the very first and one and only time I have ever bitched about the cost of licensing when it comes to hunting. And it’s over $10. If that doesn’t tell you it’s the principal I don’t know what does.

From: Groundhunter
01-Apr-24
What are you yelling at me for? I just read, never posted on this?

From: Mule Power
01-Apr-24
Haha guilty conscience? ;-)

From: PushCoArcher
01-Apr-24
Of all the states I hunt and apply in Wyoming is the last one I'd complain about spending extra money in. Walk-in areas, hma's, wardens actively patrolling and enforcing rules, or just plain old being able to actually get a hold of a biologist for a conversation are a few examples of why Wyoming IMO does a pretty good job with our NR dollars. I've hunted Colorado as much or more then Wyoming and never been checked by a warden. Well over half my hunts in WY I have been checked. On one pronghorn hunt 3 times by different wardens. That same hunt I watched them ticket several people for shooting to close to the road.

From: ILbowhntr
01-Apr-24
My bride has said “let’s move to Alaska” twice now. She also knows the third time, I’m calling the realtor. I’d rather move than complain.

From: ILbowhntr
01-Apr-24
My bride has said “let’s move to Alaska” twice now. She also knows the third time, I’m calling the realtor. I’d rather move than complain.

From: Firsty
01-Apr-24
Don't apply. They won't miss you. In fact there will several guys more than willing to take your spot.

From: Franzen
06-Apr-24
If you believe in the NA model, hunting isn't "just another" free market endeavor.

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