Do you shoot ADULT arrows?
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
Landshark Launcher 19-May-24
hunt'n addict 19-May-24
Corax_latrans 19-May-24
Blood 20-May-24
fdp 20-May-24
Jethro 20-May-24
12yards 20-May-24
wv_bowhunter 20-May-24
fdp 20-May-24
Supernaut 20-May-24
Landshark Launcher 20-May-24
TonyBear 20-May-24
Blood 20-May-24
ahunter76 20-May-24
Will 20-May-24
butcherboy 20-May-24
Beendare 20-May-24
Keepitrural 20-May-24
Brotsky 20-May-24
Supernaut 20-May-24
Blood 20-May-24
rattling_junkie 20-May-24
Bowfreak 20-May-24
Murph 20-May-24
Bowfreak 20-May-24
Hondolane 20-May-24
butcherboy 20-May-24
wyobullshooter 20-May-24
Blood 20-May-24
Ziek 20-May-24
RayJ 20-May-24
midwest 20-May-24
Bowfreak 20-May-24
Beendare 20-May-24
Mhg825 20-May-24
Blood 20-May-24
Coondog 20-May-24
RayJ 20-May-24
Mike Ukrainetz 20-May-24
Matt 20-May-24
Blood 20-May-24
Matt 20-May-24
Bowfreak 20-May-24
Blood 20-May-24
DConcrete 20-May-24
Mike Ukrainetz 20-May-24
wyobullshooter 20-May-24
Blood 20-May-24
HUNT MAN 20-May-24
wyobullshooter 20-May-24
Blood 20-May-24
Willieboat 20-May-24
wyobullshooter 20-May-24
Coondog 20-May-24
Blood 20-May-24
Blood 20-May-24
ND String Puller 21-May-24
sawtooth 21-May-24
Murph 21-May-24
Blood 21-May-24
sawtooth 21-May-24
wyobullshooter 21-May-24
Blood 21-May-24
Blood 21-May-24
midwest 21-May-24
carcus 21-May-24
Ziek 21-May-24
Jaquomo 21-May-24
wyobullshooter 21-May-24
Beendare 21-May-24
Mike Ukrainetz 21-May-24
Blood 21-May-24
Mike Ukrainetz 21-May-24
deerslayer 21-May-24
Jaquomo 21-May-24
midwest 21-May-24
Corax_latrans 21-May-24
APauls 21-May-24
Coondog 21-May-24
Ziek 21-May-24
Mike Ukrainetz 21-May-24
Matt 21-May-24
ND String Puller 21-May-24
Jaquomo 21-May-24
Ironbow 21-May-24
Landshark Launcher 21-May-24
12yards 21-May-24
Mike Ukrainetz 21-May-24
Glunt@work 22-May-24
DanaC 22-May-24
Franzen 22-May-24
Will 22-May-24
Blood 22-May-24
Corax_latrans 22-May-24
Shaft2Long 22-May-24
Will 22-May-24
Beendare 23-May-24
Corax_latrans 23-May-24
djl 23-May-24
Bowfreak 23-May-24
Machino 26-May-24
rattling_junkie 26-May-24
Matt 27-May-24
DanaC 27-May-24
Jaquomo 27-May-24
Blood 27-May-24
Beendare 27-May-24
Landshark Launcher 27-May-24
Corax_latrans 28-May-24
Beendare 28-May-24
Corax_latrans 28-May-24
sawtooth 28-May-24
Ambush 28-May-24
Corax_latrans 28-May-24
Ambush 28-May-24
Beendare 29-May-24
Beendare 29-May-24
19-May-24
Been watching some of the utube videos that the RanchFairy has about tuning heavy hunting arrows... He says most don't shoot a adult arrows. He has all the answers... I know my simmons heads are for adults only.. :^)

19-May-24
I tried his method of arrow tuning because I was having problems getting my fix blade broadheads to hit the same spot as field points, and his method worked. So yes, now I shot adult arrows.

19-May-24
So what are the criteria for “adult” status?

From: Blood
20-May-24
Yes I do. But here’s the deal….and no one talks about it……

An arrow isn’t heavy if it’s going fast.

From: fdp
20-May-24
Curious what defines an adult arrow as well. Admittedly I'm not a huge fan of Ranch Fairy.

From: Jethro
20-May-24
Most of my adult arrows are in the spare box. Currently I'm shooting adolescent to pre-teen arrows. I need to buy more shafts this year, so those will be new-borns.

From: 12yards
20-May-24
I believe an "adult arrow" is a heavy arrow with high FOC and a big COC broadhead, preferrably a single bevel on the front.

From: wv_bowhunter
20-May-24
I fall somewhere in the middle I believe. I am shooting a 539 grain finished arrow. I have a short draw length at only 27.5”, so I have tried other configurations in the 400-500 grain range. However, I couldn’t replicate the same broadhead flight and those lighter arrows were not as quiet, nor was the bow itself.

This setup ended up being a very happy middle ground for me in terms of arrow flight, speed and quietness that I have became very confident in. No matter what your setup is, having confidence it it goes a long way.

From: fdp
20-May-24
"a heavy arrow with high FOC and a big COC broadhead"....I wonder what his definition of those are ? I'll have to go take a look at his interpretation at some point.

From: Supernaut
20-May-24

Supernaut's embedded Photo
Supernaut's embedded Photo
1916's or 2016's out of my recurves depending on the bow.

I pick them up on the other side of the shot with my barred white feather dyed blood red.

They might be "kid's" arrows in some people's opinions but there are no cape buffalo here in PA. I shoot hot pink feathers as well and I'm confident enough in my masculinity to laugh off "kid's arrows".

Have fun and good luck.

20-May-24
That guy cracks me up. But I'm sure he is right about alot of folks who know nothing about arrow tuning and shoot expandables, because , they can't tune.

From: TonyBear
20-May-24
I dunno I have some cedar arrows from the 90s I am still shooting with my recurve and some of my carbons for the compound go back 25 years.

From: Blood
20-May-24
The industry focuses on an arrow “getting there”. It does not focus on the “impact point” of an arrow once it hits the animal.

Once an arrow hits your target, it can and does do weird things. Better arrow components, speed, and a durable and efficient system minimizes some of these weird things. Adult arrow systems can help with this.

From: ahunter76
20-May-24

ahunter76's embedded Photo
ahunter76's embedded Photo
I have "yet" to look at anything by Ranch Fairy or in fact, any other "expert" on arrows. Since I actually started archery/bowhunting in 1956 & still hunt & compete, I do my own thing. I use an arrow "for what I am going to do". In competition I build the lightest arrow for speed that I can "safely" shoot. Speed is what I want for that as I shoot more Field (thru 80 yds) & Target (60 yds) than I do 3Ds. Hunting, I "prefer" an arrow of total weight of + or - a few of 500 grns. FOC, I never think about. I have used some model 125 gr. 3 blade Rocky Mountain for over 45 years now. I have a few times use a 400 gr total weight on Antelope. For me, under 400 grns total is to light for hunting but that is "for me".. Oh, I use Aluminum shafts too. I did the Carbon's 2 years & "never" satisfied. My current hunter is 2" 4 fletch Razor feathers, 125 gr 3 blade Rocky Ironhead & 29" 2216 Aluminum shaft out of 60#s. They have blown thru Elk, Buffalo, Hogs & many Whitetails too..

From: Will
20-May-24
Lets see... Somewhere around 1988 I started shooting adult arrows. Sometimes they have flippy flappy heads. Sometimes they have blades that dont move on them. Sometimes they have field points or judo heads. But definitely adult arrows.

From: butcherboy
20-May-24
I shoot adult arrows and kid arrows. Just depends on if I’m shooting my bow or helping one of my kids.

From: Beendare
20-May-24
Have you noticed that the internet hacks have been backing off their crazy recommendations of very high foc and very heavy arrows?

Many guys have tried it and come back to avg arrows realizing- Ooops, I’m missing critters and not getting good shot locations because of the bad trajectory.

Everyone I know shoots in that 420g-500g range for its all around killing efficiency. The experienced guys know that the further you get out on the fringe, the worse the overall performance.

Same with tuning. Its a Bell curve of what works….and further out on that curve gets you worse arrow flight. Now you have to be a good enough shooter to recognize that…which is why the RF’s and Ashby’s don’t know any better.

.

From: Keepitrural
20-May-24
The invention of the drop away rest changed a few things.

From: Brotsky
20-May-24
I only listen to fairies when it comes to shoes and interior design.

From: Supernaut
20-May-24
I thought fairies wore boots?

You gotta believe me.

From: Blood
20-May-24
Some of you are missing the whole story…..

A lot of you are talking about SLOW arrows.

20-May-24
That guy doesn't hunt much, I wouldn't put much stock in what he says.

From: Bowfreak
20-May-24
Brotsky is spot on.

This guy is a bumbling idiot who bases his whole world on shooting hogs at a feeder at 15 yards.

Shoot a 450 +/- 50 gr arrow at a reasonable poundage a DL and kill everything in North America with it.

From: Murph
20-May-24
Anyone that knows anything, knows ranch fairy is 98% full of shit and strictly quotes things that Ashby has done, i was nearly embarrassed for him when I listened to him on Dudley’s podcast and how blatantly obvious it was that he is completely ignorant to some pretty elementary fundamentals of tuning and archery mechanics.. With so much good info on the web, you definetly have to sift through the chaff!!

From: Bowfreak
20-May-24
Spot on Murph.

From: Hondolane
20-May-24
67 pounds I shoot 430 grain arrows with 125 rage and watch elk and moose fall over… I forgot I shoot kids arrows

From: butcherboy
20-May-24
68# 28” dl. 27” fmj 340’s. 50 gr brass hit. 100 gr exodus broadhead. TAW is 482 grains. Shot some axis arrows yesterday with the same set up. Definitely faster. Bow was louder and I don’t like that.

20-May-24
I must be missing something. None of the animals I’ve killed have seemed the least bit embarrassed they were done in by a kiddie arrow.

From: Blood
20-May-24
Murph, Dudley was an A$$ to Troy on that podcast. And Dudley’s test he did with slow arrows vs fast arrows just after that podcast (to “prove a point”) was flawed in so many ways. Yes, Troy tunes differently - but I would say that a large majority of bow hunters have no idea if their setup is as efficient as possible.

From: Ziek
20-May-24
Don't know anything about RanchFairy. But I just got a new bow - RX8 with a BG Ascent Verdict sight. My last bow was a 2011 Carbon Element at 65#, 28 1/2" draw. That bow shot 238 fps with my FMJ at 550 gr TAW. Since my 4 level cervical fusion, I need to go down in draw weight, so my new bow is 60#, which I'll have to work up to. I will shoot the same arrows. I haven't chronographed it yet, but I doubt I'll gain any speed - that's not a problem. I only move the sight housing down for target practice, not EVER for hunting. Still, it pissed me off to find the sight tapes included, only went down to 244 fps. Really?! Am I the only one shooting appropriately weighted hunting shafts out of a modest poundage bow? My wife has the same sight on her new bow which won't make 200 fps. What the heck is BG thinking? Why only provide them for arrows so fast, you shouldn't need to move the sight to begin with?

From: RayJ
20-May-24
I shoot a kid bow and kid arrows.

From: midwest
20-May-24
"Am I the only one shooting appropriately weighted hunting shafts out of a modest poundage bow?"

Define "appropriately weighted". I'd drop down about 100 gr.

From: Bowfreak
20-May-24
Blood,

I agree that Dudley was a jerk on that podcast but it doesn’t change the fact that RF was absolutely clueless. I think I’d rather take advice from Outdoors Allie.

From: Beendare
20-May-24
It's literally like someone telling us we need to drive a semi Truck around town for errands.....because a car or Pickup cannot do the job.

Even today..... there are people that fall for this very high FOC and heavy arrow stuff.

It just goes to show, PT Barnum was right....

From: Mhg825
20-May-24
I have 100 grain suction cups .

From: Blood
20-May-24
See, here’s the interesting thing. There’s so much debate about his approach.….even here. Most of the people responding are stating and thinking “heavy arrow”.

Your thought process is flawed. You should be saying Slow Arrow. If you can shoot what’s perceived to be “heavy” fast, it’s not a “heavy arrow”.

What do some of you consider to be a heavy arrow? What is a slow arrow? How do you know your setup is as efficient as possible?

From: Coondog
20-May-24
Ziek, use an online software to make a tape that fits your set up or just make all your marks on a blank tape.

From: RayJ
20-May-24
I shoot a kid bow and kid arrows.

20-May-24
I’ll agree with the heavy arrows, 600+ grains, and high foc that Ranch Fairy promotes for close range hunting, IF you can get them to fly straight. And that’s a huge IF. But it’s a ridiculous arrow for longer range bowhunting, where you may get shots of 30-60 yds or more. Pin gap, trajectory of the arrow all make it a very poor choice. Virtually no consistently successful Western bowhunter that I know uses a setup like that. It’s a Fairy tale.

From: Matt
20-May-24
RF sounds insecure.

From: Blood
20-May-24
A heavier arrow holds its FPS longer than a lighter arrow…. IE - a lighter arrow will lose speed faster than a heavier arrow. Especially if they are going at a relatively same FPS at launch.

From: Matt
20-May-24
Bows don’t launch a light and a heavy arrow at relatively the same speed. That comparison doesn’t make sense to me.

From: Bowfreak
20-May-24
Blood, Most people have forgotten more about archery on Bowsite than Ranch Fairy will ever know, considering his myopic view. He doesn’t know beans from apple butter about tuning bows or shooting or bowhunting anything that is not super close.

Beendare has given the perfect analogy.

From: Blood
20-May-24
Listen, I’m not saying he knows how to super tune a bow. He messes with a lot variables to play with an outcome. Some stuff is pretty cool. Some stuff, eh, doesn’t make any sense in the grand scheme.

But I do like the heavier arrow approach. However, some of you need to change the way you think….. what if you shot an arrow say, 600 grains at 290 FPS. Is that a heavy arrow now? Or is it a fast arrow? What makes it “heavy”? I think a lot of you equate heavy with SLOW.

The whole heavy vs light thing is not one dimensional. Not by a long shot. Those terms are relative.

From: DConcrete
20-May-24
I like a heavy arrow, going as fast as I can get it. Heavy to me is 500 Plus grains.

20-May-24
What draw weight is your bow to shoot a 600 grain arrow at 290 fps?

20-May-24
^^^^ And what DL?

From: Blood
20-May-24
That’s a hypothetical question. But not far off. Almost regardless of weight of an arrow, if you can shoot an arrow at 275-295 FPS, why wouldn’t you? That’s a very sweet spot for tunability, good arrow flight with BH’s, penetrating power, downrange efficacy, etc.

I get so tired of this “heavy arrow” BS. An arrow isn’t heavy if it’s flying fast.

If you have one arrow @ 425grains and it’s going 290FPS and another arrow @ 550grains going 290FPS - which arrow are you going to shoot?

From: HUNT MAN
20-May-24
The 425!! I like a fine balance between momentum and trajectory. A 420 grain arrow going around 290 has been perfect for me for over two decades. This is Western hunting from 0 to 60!

20-May-24
Blood, apparently you glossed over Matt’s question. Please enlighten us as to what bow shoots a 425 gr arrow at 290 fps, and then shoots an arrow 125 gr heavier at that same speed? I’ll answer it for you. There ain’t no such animal.

From: Blood
20-May-24
Wyo. lmao. I have a setup that can do that no problem. With room to spare.

From: Willieboat
20-May-24
Man the shit just gets deeper every day around here !

20-May-24
Blood, I have no idea what you’re on, but it obviously must be some good sh!t.

From: Coondog
20-May-24
I shoot a 536 grain arrow at 294fps.

From: Blood
20-May-24
I’ll post up some pics of arrow weights and chronograph. And my sight tape. Tomorrow at some point. I’m working on some stuff for a really durable arrow setup too. Haven’t found what I’m looking for yet. But back to the original question posed - yeah, adult arrows. lol :)

From: Blood
20-May-24
So you’re saying you’d take the 550 @ 290? ;)

21-May-24
Huntman x2… that is the sweet spot for trajectory and broadhead flight.

21-May-24
There have been polls taken here. Asking how far your average shot is. The vast majority brag about getting close. And archery is a close game. Then denigrate crossbows for shooting at 100 yards. Risking our primitive status with state regulations.

Then when discussing projectile weight, the same people worry about trajectory and shooting animals at crossbow distance.

I know most have been in the game along time. Please tell me you don’t think a 425 grain arrow leaving the bow at 310 fps is shooting flat ?

You have to have stood to the side, or watched someone shoot out to 50,60,80, 110 yards.

Your 420 gr arrow has 6-10 feet of arc. So even light arrows need a clear runway to shoot 60 yards. A heavy arrow needs more clearance height. That’s the only negative aspect I see with 500-600 grain arrows.

Remember that crossbows at 400 fps and rifles projectiles at 3000 fps arc to the target also.

From: sawtooth
21-May-24
Flat, does not mean flat whether a bolt, bullet, or arrow. Flat is simply a figure of speech.

From: Murph
21-May-24
If you wanna see something even more entertaining then the Dudley podcast, look up 2022 ATA show Ranch Fairy and Jim Burnworrh toward the end of the 35 min seminar Jimbo speaks up quite entertaining IMO..

From: Blood
21-May-24
All else being equal - Do some of you know that those two arrows would have the about the same sight tape? Gravity is gravity. And the 550 grain arrow would retain more of its energy and speed at distance. IE - the 550 Gr arrow would be going faster at distance than the 425 Gr arrow.

From: sawtooth
21-May-24
Simple physics.

21-May-24
Blood, I’m confident most of those that frequent Bowsite are well aware that a heavy arrow maintains it’s speed/momentum better than a lighter arrow. You said earlier that these numbers you keep throwing out are hypothetical. I’d venture to guess that less than 5% (probably less than that) are even physically capable of drawing a bow back that can launch a 550 gr arrow @ 290 fps, given the draw weight and DL it would require. No doubt, the percentage of those than can do so, without sacrificing accuracy, would be far less. That’s reality. Another reality is that no bow is capable of launching a 550 gr arrow at the same speed as a 425 gr arrow, all things being equal.

From: Blood
21-May-24

Blood's embedded Photo
Blood's embedded Photo
Blood's embedded Photo
Blood's embedded Photo
Blood's embedded Photo
Blood's embedded Photo
Here ya go Wyo. I had to run into my basement and take these photos for you. Hoyt Ventum Pro 33. 73/74lbs 30.5” DL. It’s on the 85% letoff. So not even juiced up. I should crank it to 80lbs and go 80% letoff just to see if I can get 600 grains to fly at 285-290 fps.

From: Blood
21-May-24

Blood's embedded Photo
Blood's embedded Photo
Blood's embedded Photo
Blood's embedded Photo
And here’s a lighter arrow. I don’t have a 425gr. made up. I’ll have to see if I can Frankenstein one up and lower the draw weight and DL. But I think it’s completely doable on this bow.

From: midwest
21-May-24
30.5” DL lol. You’re a blessed man.

From: carcus
21-May-24
I made the mistake around 15 or so years ago, I went heavy, I used weight tubes and heavier broadheads plus a slow 8"bh bow, it cost me a easy shot at a moose, never again! I like a minimum of 270fps . I have two setups, my deer and bear hunting bow is a pse fortis 30 cranked down to 65pounds shooting a 420gr axis at 280 and a pse Omen at 70lbs shooting a 493gr axis at 286fps. Both bows serve as backups to the other. Heavy arrows are awesome as long as they are going 280fps!

From: Ziek
21-May-24
Coondog, I know how to set up my own sight tape. My frustration is that BG automatically defaults to providing high speed tapes while totally ignoring a significant group of bowhunters.

Obviously, everyone has different experiences on set-ups. But there is NO "sweet spot". Obviously if you have arms and the strength of an orangutan, you can shoot heavier arrows, faster. Not everyone is built like that. My wife has a 24.5 draw length. With a relatively heavy arrow - for her set up, 420 grains. She has never shot over 200 fps. When younger she was able to shoot a 50# bow. But like most of us, age and injuries has gradually forced her to go down in draw weight. Yet she has completed a Colorado Big 8 & 9. Her longest shot at game was the same as mine; about 50 yds. And like me, shooting that far is rare, and getting rarer. Arrow speed is irrelevant. You only need to know the distance and adjust elevation accordingly. Learn how to hunt to get close, and to judge distance. That's what bow hunting is all about.

My first bow, some 40 years ago, shot a 600+ grain arrow at about 200 fps. I shot for many years with fingers, off a flipper rest with a plunger, no peep, and a 4 pin sight with a square pin guard. There were no range finders, and I learned how to judge distances out to 50 yards confidently. In fact, my first kill was a fork-horn mule deer using my 50 yard pin. I killed many animals of several species with that, and similar set-ups, over those early years. Obviously, the closer the shot, the the more accurate I could judge distance. Fortunately, the more I hunted, the better I became at hunting (getting close), shooting, and judging distance without the crutches everyone seems to "need" today. However, I never increased that maximum 50 yard shot I was willing to take at game. I never could confidently increase that 50 yard distance judgment all on my own, without an electronic crutch. Bowhunting, to my wife and I, is about developing skills, not manipulating technology. Shooting "slow" arrows at "close" range has never been a hindrance for either of us. It's resulted in greater satisfaction from developing our hunting skills.

From: Jaquomo
21-May-24
There's a dead horse around here somewhere. I can smell it.

Since dumping heavy draw weight bows in about 1984, every animal I've killed in North America and Australia has been with kid bows and kid arrows. I'm now shooting 52# with a 430+/- arrow. I think Freddy Eichler is still shooting in the 40s with a comparable arrow, though I haven't talked to him for awhile. He kills a few big animals.

I'm with Hunt, Beendare, Willieboat and other proven western big game killers.

21-May-24
Blood, PM sent.

From: Beendare
21-May-24
The beauty of a site like The Bowsite is there are many experienced bowhunters that can set guys straight.

A bow shot arrow is an amazingly effective killing tool.

There for awhile, the trend was to shoot fast and light with a large inefficient BH without tuning for perfect arrow flight. When those guys were having problems, along comes the Snake oil guys saying they need a massively heavy arrow with very high FOC to kill a deer.

Nope

Tune for perfect BH arrow flight and the problems go away.

21-May-24
RF and Ashby actually promote 650+ grain arrows with high foc. It’s a reasonable idea for sub 20 yd shots, or range found only shots. Again IF you can get them to fly straight out of a compound, not a longbow like Ashby used. Ashby’s average shot distance in his testing and extensive killing was 13 yds.

I think for realistic Western hunting with shots out to 50-60+ yds anything over 550 grains is a terrible choice of arrow, even over 500 grains gives you too much pin gap, I think. Maybe ok for a dial a prayer sight.

And blood, every increase in grain weight causes more pin gap, more arc, doesn’t it? Doesn’t it have to? Physics?

From: Blood
21-May-24
Mike U….you’re incorrect - if both arrows are flying at the same speed, their flight is consistent. Actually at distance, the heavier arrow will be flying faster than the lighter one. The lighter arrow will lose speed faster.

You are correct if the heavier arrow is flying slower. Or any arrow (light or heavy) flying slower will have a bigger pin gap/drop.

This whole thing was never about heavy or slow arrows. It was more about when an arrow hits an animal - so that it drives through its path and a fast heavy arrow does that sometimes better.

21-May-24
Of course at the same speed, the sight tape is basically the same. But the lighter arrow will always go faster, shot out of the same bow, same draw weight and tuned for proper flight. I’ve never shot a heavier arrow and had my pin gap tighten up, have you?

From: deerslayer
21-May-24
Been shooting around 585 grains with 190 on the front end for years... Killed a lot of stuff with them, and the penetration is amazing. (I'm at 80lbs with 30.5" so that helps) I shoot Rage Hypos, on everything from antelope to elk, and with this setup, it puts a 2" hole through both sides with ease (including bone hits).....

However I have begun to reevaluate my setup and am in the process of trimming things down to around 500 grains total arrow weight, which I think for my poundage and DL is the sweet spot.... maybe 490... After thinking on my near calls, I have realized that some extra speed might have made the difference. No way to know for sure, but every advantage I can stack in my favor is a positive. I still am a believer in good FOC, but with all these things there is definitely a balance.... At least that's what I am trying to achieve. Better trajectory while still maintaining dependable penetration with a large expandable.

From: Jaquomo
21-May-24
It's interesting that most of the heavy arrow, EFOC proponents seem to be guys who hunt out of treestands, shooting at a downward angle at relatively close, known range.

Apples and oranges compared to hunting from the ground, at often unknown distances, where trajectory becomes a serious variable.

Also, from past surveys of age of Bowsiters, many are reaching that stage where dropping draw weight down into the 50s or low 60s is necessary to keep hunting. For those of us in that category, heavy arrows anf EFOC are the least of our concerns.

One poster on this thread, whom I believe is the best living elk bowhunter, has killed somewhere close to 60 using arrows in the 385-410 grain range. He doesn't even know what his FOC is but believes it's pretty low based on his overall package.

IMO, this is all much ado about nothing. Tune your setup and shoot a super sharp broadhead, and go back to worrying about politics.

From: midwest
21-May-24
I think most of us need to shoot more, working on accuracy, and worry about the minor details less.

21-May-24
Q: “If you have one arrow @ 425grains and it’s going 290FPS and another arrow @ 550grains going 290FPS - which arrow are you going to shoot?”

A: “The 425!! I like a fine balance between momentum and trajectory. “

You have GOT to be kidding…..

OTOH, this kind of answer explains SO MUCH….

From: APauls
21-May-24
I'm sorry is someone going to a guy with the name Fairy for archery instruction? Questionable start right there ;) Doesn't sound like he and I would agree. I'm in the 430-450grn camp but my arrows only go a paltry 260ish fps. No 30.5" draw here!

From: Coondog
21-May-24
I’m pretty sure Ranch Fairy has said numerous times that he prefers most of his arrows to be between 540 and 560 grains but really does enjoy playing around with heavier stuff. I’m thinking all you guys whining about arrows being “too heavy” maybe just need to hit the gym and pull a heavier poundage bow… lol

From: Ziek
21-May-24
I need to amend what I said about there not being a "sweet spot". It doesn't have anything to do with any specific velocity. It's a balance between what you are able to draw, and arrow weight. That sweet spot is plus or minus 9gr/pound of draw weight. Heavier to increase penetration potential, and less to increase velocity. If you're within 1 gr/# of that, any speed is more than enough.

Claiming that western hunting requires shots at over 50 yards is just BS. Learn to hunt. You NEVER have to release an arrow due to any circumstance. Change the circumstance! At least 90% of my hunting is "western". I've killed 13 different species of big game, all "out west" from AK/northern Canada to the King Ranch in Texas with 17 P&Y entries. Most in Colorado. None over 50 yards. I never kept complete records, but not counting turkeys, I'ld be surprised if my average shot distance is much over 30.

Trajectory is only important if you have no idea how far the shot is. If you don't know that, you should't shoot anyway.

21-May-24
I had a personal back and forth email conversation a few years ago with RF and he said he would build a “lighter” 550 arrow to hunt elk but he prefers the 600+, or even 650+ grain arrows, just like Ashby. He says 650 is the weight needed to break bones on any North American animal. Then you don’t even worry about shot angles, just shoot, that was the story. As long as he could range find it first he was good to go.

From: Matt
21-May-24
Reading this thread, I've realized a couple of things:

* Just how badly the odds were stacked against me with each of the ~100 animals I've killed with kid's arrows.

* That I should be able to estimate distance without the crutches everyone seems to "need" today but that, absent knowing the range, I shouldn't be shooting anyway.

21-May-24
Ziek, you were just complaining about no sight tapes for 238 fps… I can only imagine that pin gap.

From: Jaquomo
21-May-24
Ziek, answer honestly- have you ranged every single animal at which you've taken a shot? Every...single...one?

From: Ironbow
21-May-24
I used arrows weighing 700+ grains even playing around with 1000 grain “Big 5” arrows for awhile out of 75-100# bows. As I aged and had 3 different shoulder injuries I dropped my bow weight and arrow weight. Bows are certainly more efficient now, but at 63-65# and 475 grain arrows I blow through any whitetail I shoot. Shoulder hits and severe quartering angles always poke out the other side. Penetration is the least of my worries when hunting.

21-May-24
My arrows are rated "R".. And my broadhead blades are already deployed when they leave my bow.. lol

From: 12yards
21-May-24
My version of an adult arrow is a Victory VForce Elite 350 cut to 28", standard insert 21 gr., 20 gr. back weight, 4" wrap, 3 Blazer vanes, and standard nock. It is 443 gr TAW with a 125 gr broadhead. This year a Slick Trick Magnum. I think foc is around 14%.

21-May-24
I’ve guided a few sheep and mule deer hunts where some good $ was paid and it’s funny how a guys effective range gets stretched out and pin gap, trajectory and accuracy at long range suddenly matter a lot!

From: Glunt@work
22-May-24
I've been hunting since the 80's and have never shot an arrow at game that left the bow going over 200fps. Are there a bunch of opportunities that I passed that would be a slam dunk for guys shooting whats popular these days? Yes...many, some great memories of what almost happened but zero regrets. I've used heavy arrows and light arrows. Whatever gets me great arrow flight and a good broadhead design trumps weight, speed and trajectory since I don't shoot very far and have low KE and momentum. A good tune is a giant factor in penetration.

For someone looking to maximize opportunies the sweet spot of balance between draw weight, arrow weight and trajectory you get with a mid 400 something grain arrow and a 55-65# compound is amazing.

From: DanaC
22-May-24
I seem to remember that Chuck Adams took most of his slam with heavy aluminum arrows flying about 235.

From: Franzen
22-May-24
Looks like you proved yourself wrong, since the lighter arrow did indeed run through the chrono faster. I don't know if I shoot adult arrows, kid arrows, or somewhere in between, and certainly don't care. I also don't know who RF is, nor do I care.

I'll give you this; at least this is bowhunting related.

From: Will
22-May-24
Corax - is my math nuts. I think in that scenario the heavier arrow will be going much faster at say 30yds than the lighter arrow, given loss of energy will be lower down range. Correct?

From: Blood
22-May-24
Franzen, I was just showing that a “heavy” arrow can go fast. I was also doing it for mathematical purposes to see if I could get a 600 grain arrow to go 285-290 FPS, which I think I can achieve. So the terminology is mislabeled as heavy=slow. When in literal terms slow=slow.

And Will, yes, a heavier arrow compared to a lighter arrow, if both are shot at the same launch FPS, will be going faster at distance than the lighter one. So I’d pick the 550 grain arrow at 290 FPS all day long.

I would also bet that the lighter arrow, even if launched at a fast FPS would still under perform the heavier arrow at distance. IE - it slows down and loses energy much faster.

22-May-24
Nothing at all wrong with your math, Will, although “much faster” is probably a stretch…. and I would have to consult a ballistics program to put a number on it. Because what’s “much”? 5 fps, or 15, or 50….??

But apparently there are those who don’t understand that trajectory is primarily a function of velocity, and mass (per se) has nothing to do with it. On the other hand, to Ziek’s point, if you know the range well enough, velocity is all but inconsequential. Which is why some snipers lob huge, .50 caliber bullets at all of 2800 fps and BPCR guys can group into about a foot at 1,000 yards…. using subsonic projectiles, IIRC….. But if it’s actually 1025, they might well miss a buffalo silhouette entirely… ;)

Ziek’s Not Wrong about 9 GPP; that’s been the rule of thumb going back at least as far as Fred Bear. I hadn’t heard that it’s the same for modern cam-bows, but it doesn’t really surprise me. Basics behind the propulsion are the same. Leaf springs.

I guess it’s a little ironic that the same people most likely to fuss over every last foot per second are the same people who — in Reality — are least likely to have their shot placement affected by it because they’re lasering their shots anyway, whereas the folks who just eyeball every shot are usually shooting somewhere close to 180 fps…

It’s almost as if they were engaged in a whole different proposition….

There IS one good reason to choose an arrow at 425 gr vs 550 at the same velocity, though…. You don’t have to pull nearly the same poundage.

Maybe the Ranch Fairy’s point is that flyweight arrows are a crutch/quick fix employed by those who are too lazy or feeble to shoot a properly heavy arrow at the speeds they think they need, so if you want to shoot 290, maybe “put on your Big Boy pants” and just shoot higher poundage?? Or maybe if one is not physically capable of shooting more pounds, one should perhaps accept the limitation instead of buying a solution…..

From: Shaft2Long
22-May-24
No, I do not. My arrows this year are going to be the lightest in years. Somewhere between 435 and 455 grain’s depending on what I finally decide on. Somewhere between 16-18% foc.

Best part is, as of now, I have no tags to hunt with. I’m not optimistic about my Colorado deer app, so may be all for not.

From: Will
22-May-24
Blood/Corax - thanks guys. Makes sense to me!

From: Beendare
23-May-24
Its physics; a heavier arrow will retain more energy downrange….but the examples above are way off base. The heavier arrow retains a low single digit percentage of energy.

You can calc this energy retention with the momentum equation.

Blood was using two completely different arrows/bows to exaggerate his point. What matters is apples to apples comparison- different arrows from the same bow.

If a 420g arrow…and 650g arrow both blow through any critter in North America….then it boils down to other factors like shot placement accuracy and Trajectory. If you are only capable of taking 13 yard shot like Ashby-or 20y treestand shots-you can shoot heavy arrows, trajectory is not a big factor.

Anyone arguing for these 650g arrows for 40y plus shots is simply not very experienced.

For the most part, good advice above. Dead horse? Well I dunno when there is a question once a week on archery forums from rookies wanting to set up a heavy arrow with more FOC…the uber FOC and heavy arrow fake news is still floating around out there.

23-May-24
“Well I dunno when there is a question once a week on archery forums from rookies wanting to set up a heavy arrow with more FOC…the uber FOC and heavy arrow fake news is still floating around out there.”

Funny thing is that “heavy” arrows being overdone is far from a recent phenomenon… there are plenty of geriatric archers on LW shooting 15 GPP or more (and younger guys, too)… which might make sense from a #30 recurve, but they seem to think it’s somehow necessary….

I’ve been trying to standardize my own rigs around roughly 9 GPP because that keeps my velocities pretty consistent from one bow to the next, which is useful when the ballistics program and rangefinder reside between your ears. If it weren’t for that, I’d have no reason to go over 450 gr TAW other than just getting the bow suitably quiet. 450 grains is 10 GPP from a #45, and that combo is pretty damn well proven, so driving the same arrow faster…. But the way some folks seem to understand GPP, you’d think that a 450 grain arrow from a #45 is overkill, but if you were to launch it from an equally efficient #90, it’ll bounce right off….

Which it won’t.

I just don’t see any up-side to going under 450, regardless of your draw weight; seems to me that by the time you reduce the mass enough to make a really appreciable difference in trajectory, you’re going to run into issues with penetration— especially if the velocity gains translate into tuning issues which far too many people “fix” by switching to a mechanically disadvantaged BH…..

Then (again, JMO) there’s really no disadvantage to going heavier… up until it start making you miss high & low….

I have considered re-tuning my #62 at about 500gr vs the 545 I have got right now, but then I’d have to re-tune at least two others, and probably 4 (if not six). Not sure it’s worth the hassle…

From: djl
23-May-24
mike u

western bowhunting doesn't require those 60 yd shots. that mostly end up in wounded deer , elk or antelope. don't kid yourself on the wounding at long range i see it every year here in southern new mexico. the compound mentality i shoot between 650 to 750 grain arrow killed everything from elk to antelope at less the 20 yds. one of my mule deer won the wyoming governors cup for my team my shot was 8 yds. been doing it for 52 years now still works

From: Bowfreak
23-May-24
djl,

I won't disagree with you on wounded animals. However, I think the same people taking shots that they are not capable of making (too far) would wound animals at 20 yards too. Some people just can't shoot good enough to be bowhunting at all. Some of those are good shots but they crap their pants on a live animal. Either way, they are the problem regardless of their setup.

MOST western bowhunters need flatter shooting setups. Most western bowhunters are shooting game at longer distances than 20 yards. Even a max of 40 yards is problematic for unkown yardages if you shoot 650 to 750 gr arrows unless you are shooting high poundage. You don't have to worry about it as you evidently have the ability to get real close. Many don't have that skill or choose to shoot when an animal is close enough. I am better at shooting than I am at getting close, but I still prefer top pin shots and have only shot a handful of animals at distances longer than that.

From: Machino
26-May-24
"I am better at shooting than I am at getting close" Compounding in a nutshell

26-May-24
^^^^tool

From: Matt
27-May-24
‘“I am better at shooting than I am at getting close" Compounding in a nutshell’

I did not know Howard Hill shot a compound.

From: DanaC
27-May-24
I'd have to say that statement holds true for a great many hunters. Howard Hill - mentioned above - called bow hunting "hunting the hard way" for good reasons. You have to be both a good close-the-distance hunter and a fair shot to be successful. Even with the rifles of his time, closing the distance was not so important as it is with the most archery tackle. We think of 60 yards as a long shot with a bow, but for a rifleman that's a chip shot, even with an old 30-30.

To some degree you can compensate for mediocre hunting skills by being a better shot, or vice versa. Some are good at both, but many are not quite as good as they think ! With any weapon, you need to know your personal limitations.

From: Jaquomo
27-May-24
Howard Hill tried to keep his shots within 168 yards, whenever possible, even though he would sometimes have to take multiple shots to figure out the trajectory. Old time trad hunters thought nothing of launching arrows at ridiculous distances just to "get an arrow in the animal".

Whenever I hear tradholes start in on compound shooters for taking long shots, it reminds me why I left the Leatherwall decades ago and never looked back.

From: Blood
27-May-24
I never thought adult arrows had much to do with arc or range or shot ability…. Modern bows and cams have so much energy in them now.

I was of the thought that adult arrows were an arrow’s ability to maximize its efficiency in order to drive straight through an animal with all its force being directed straight ahead. So that if you encounter bone or hard stuff, your arrow wouldn’t do wacky things. So if you shoot 425 grains or 650 grains, you have the best most maximized setup you could possibly have and your arrow won’t break, deflect or not penetrate fully into your target.

From: Beendare
27-May-24
Seems to me these penetration arguments weren't a thing until bowhunters started shooting overdraws and light arrows with inefficient BH designs. ( big mech heads and wide chisel point heads)

Speed increases the resistance on hitting the animal…then add an inefficient BH that also increases the resistance….and its no surprise guys started having problems.

Those guys were easy pickings for these fringe arrow influencers and their “ Arrow Builds”…when all they had to do was tune for BH’s and shoot a more efficient BH design be it fixed or mech.

27-May-24
tradholes? That's a new one that I haven't heard. Is that like a "pulley puller"? Or a "bow with training wheels term? ? Those words could offend people. Lol

28-May-24
“Speed increases the resistance on hitting the animal…”

I’ll be honest… I’ve never heard that said of arrows…. I’ve heard bits here and there which might suggest that maybe above 300 fps that could be an issue, but…. I don’t know. Of course it’s A Thing with bullets, but that’s so many orders of magnitude…

More info would be welcome…

FWIW, we miss Lou over on the wall… even if he does wear some pretty stupid-looking hats from time to time….. ;)

From: Beendare
28-May-24
CL, its simple physics, do the research.

I don’t know the correct terminology, but its a fact just as faster speed through the air causes more resistance.

A BH with very little resistance- like a 2 blade- is less affected than an inefficient head like say an over the top mech head. It explains why some 70# compound guys can’t get pass thrus with those big inefficient heads….but then guys shooting 45# recurves and very efficient heads blow through everything.

Thus, those bigger or wider inefficient heads benefit from more arrow weight vs pure speed to perform best. ( by more arrow weight I’m talking 450-500g, not 700g)

28-May-24
I would think that the inefficient blade (ramp) angles would be a liability on tough connective tissues and (of course) bone, and I’m on board with drag as an exponential function of velocity, but…. Something tells me that velocity is pretty far down the list of contributing factors in re Resistance… Those big, OTT mechanicals, for example…. It’s gotta take a small miracle for one of those to hit only one rib. Thinking that through, angle of incidence and all…. You’re basically looking at having to chop straight through rib(s) rather than sliding off, and of course if one edge of a 2-blade gets pushed, the other edge can slice into whatever it’s passing through with a minimum of resistance, where the other 2 blades of a 3-blade would be just displacing flesh with the flat of the blade… like skidding a turn on a ski vs carving it…. And the smaller/less violent the redirect, the better. Howard Hill was a fan of a 3:1 length:width ratio, and most time-tested heads are at least 2:1…

But you’re right that the short, stubby winglet type of blade is a response to speed-related woes… Mechanicals maybe not so much, or not entirely — guys have been trying to make bigger holes for ages — but they do have their own set of liabilities…

From: sawtooth
28-May-24
In much of the east one rarely sees arrows in the woods these days, most use bolts.

From: Ambush
28-May-24
Do you get deader being hit by a dump truck or a speeding BMW?

28-May-24
Depends on the hood ornament.

From: Ambush
28-May-24
^^^^ Bulldog or circle.

From: Beendare
29-May-24

Beendare's Link
Thankfully we have a lot of quality info to draw on.

The nok on Vids by John Dudley are solid advice and literally a public service to Bowhunters everywhere.

This one- at link is very good. The internet influencer hacks like to say they do a lot of "Testing" and that the pro's don't know what they are talking about- Hogwash....Dudley is a voice of reason.

From: Beendare
29-May-24

Beendare's Link
Here's Dudley in his "What the FOC" vid on you tube calling out the stupidity of uber heavy arrows and very high FOC.....

I hear the RF and Ashby guys say that the Pros are just target guys and their experience isn't relevant....I beg to differ and here Dudley explains it well.

Here he shoots a variety on arrows from low 400 to 680g ...."I had to trim my trees for the arc of the 680g arrow" funny

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