But I don’t really understand why people gravitate towards high capacity magazines when their chances of getting off more than maybe 5 shots are probably close to Nil. Why the hell would you pack all of that weight around???
Obviously practice matters regardless but where the web between the thumb and forefinger sits and grip angle leads to many people pointing high when they first pick one up.
I have over 700rds of a couple HC rds through mine- not one hiccup. Keep it stock.
Its pretty common, You have to put 500 to 1,000 rds through a Glock to get to know and like them.
You can put in an Apex trigger kit giving them a better trigger right out of the gate- if you want to speed up the process.
maxracx's Link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We_aHSA2Pbc&t=1399s
I don’t shoot glocks well
I have over 700rds of a couple HC rds through mine- not one hiccup. Keep it stock.
You have to put 500 to 1,000 rds through a Glock to get to know them. You can put an Apex trigger kit in them if you want to speed up the process.
David....watch this video.
I am pretty sure I remember him saying this was a Taurus revolver on a podcast. Definitely a revolver.
So what is a true consensus of folks that use spray? Do most of you use it, and carry? Do you carry only? If I don’t have to kill the bear, I prefer not to have to. Which deterrent keeps them further away…in your opinion?
My apologies if I ran this outside of the OPs scope of topic.
Just kidding, I’m a fan of red dots too. Old age and a retina problem in my right eye precludes the use of irons for me at distances farther than about 20 feet. If you practice your draw and presentation enough it gets pretty easy to put that dot on the money.
Its not my main defense choice but I have owned (own) way more expensive choices that had their share of issues. For a sub $300, polymer, striker fired with 3 mags its been great. No big deal if it gets dinged up or lost.
You ever been on Kodiak or parts of Alaska when the wind is really blowing? It better be in the right direction. I was on an island in Alaska when an outbound group of teenagers was charged by a bear that they had sprayed, he ran right through the cloud of spray..
What about spray in your tent?
I bet I can draw and shoot 5 rounds from my G20 in the time I get the spray can ready to go. If you decide on spray, make sure you get a couple extra cans to practice with and keep those cans current because they do expire..
I’ve gotten the impression that the folks who spend the most time around grizzlies carry Both. Let’s face it — unless your name is Miculek, your chances of an effective discharge are WAY better with the pattern you get from the spray. Unless the wind is blowing back at you….
JMO…. From a pure logistical standpoint, you are better off using the spray first (if you can), because A) you’re a lot less likely to miss and B) you probably don’t actually want to go through the process of a DLP Shooting investigation any more than you want to C) have to contend with a wounded bear in the area you’re hunting….. so the spray is probably the best bet overall, despite being a whole lot less Heroic. It also weighs a lot less, so you’re more likely to have it on you when you need it…. Years ago, I hunted with a guy who brought a Smith .357 to camp, and after the first day, it stayed in the tent. I was more concerned about it disappearing from the tent while we were up the hill than needing it with us. But that was just one camp-raiding black bear to deal with…
Cheers, Pete
I gave thought of buying a 10mm used and maybe sell after hunts over.
I always look at the source when getting advice. The majority of folks recommending spray are Park Ranger types that just don’t want these bears shot….if its you or the bear- they choose the bear.
I think the hard Cast penetrating Ammo will prove out to be the game changer- from any pistol caliber.
Yeah, there’s a lot of that going around these days, on any number of subjects….
“Now thats a strategy….hold out the can and hope they bite into it. I always look at the source when getting advice. The majority of folks recommending spray are Park Ranger types that just don’t want these bears shot….if its you or the bear- they choose the bear.”
Or maybe the “Park Ranger types” would just rather not have large numbers of people packing sidearms and/or creating Wounded Bear situations for them to clean up?? Also, the spray wears off. I would guess that when people do have time to deploy their chosen deterrent, they probably do so unnecessarily, at least a chunk of the time. If they use spray, that’s Adverse Conditioning and a bear which will probably live a good, full life of avoiding future conflicts; if they use a firearm, that’s just a loss to the species and (I would bet you a dollar) a whole lot more paperwork to deal with after the fact….
Funny thing…. I have often thought that a good (if somewhat drastic) method for reeducating a persistent, camp-raiding bear would be smear a can of Bear spray with bacon grease and honey, and set that out slightly down-wind of your camp….
How does it treat you with .44 Specials?
Battery life is going to be very dependent on the type of red dot. The ones I use nearly all have 50k hour battery life (so about 5 years of run time). Many also use a solar backup and shake awake technology to further prolong battery life and provide a contingency plan.
Nonetheless, I have an alarm set every year to swap out the battery on my guns (I’ve got about 20 in all that I swap out). So I’m generally very confident that there will be a dot there when I grab a sight picture.
Devil’s Advocate:
If you spray a bear and it doesn’t come back, the spray has done its job.
If you spray a bear and that buys you enough time to vacate the area or move away from whatever the bear is protecting, the spray has done its job.
If you spray a bear and that buys you enough time to bring a firearm into play and deploy it effectively, the spray has done its job. Call me crazy, but if a bear which has been hit hard enough with the spray to run it off) should come at you a second time, it’s not unreasonable to assume that it will not be bluffing…
Anyway, just seems like spray is a good first line of defense, even if not necessarily sufficient in all cases….
I have a couple Elk spots just outside of Yellowstone......You carry spray and let us know how it works out.
In exchange for the specifics on a genuinely good Elk-hunting spot, that’s a pretty tempting deal….
Look… TONS of people carry spray only, and when they use it successfully…. You basically never hear about it.
Maulings make the news. Casualties make the news. Grizzlies being killed make the news. Close, non-contact encounters make the news… IF the video is good enough…
Just me, I’m pretty sure that I could get even a “slow” SA revolver out of the holster, cocked, and pointed in the general direction of an oncoming threat faster than I could get a can of spray out of its “holster”, safeties off, can up and ready to spray in a productive direction….. But I’m also pretty sure that my chances of an effective “hit” (especially on a moving target) are way better with a spray can than with a single projectile. Or even several, should time allow. And I’m gonna guess that a bear that’s angry enough to shake off the effects of pepper spray is angry enough to keep coming until you hit it in the brain or the spine, so either way, you’re hosed.
You do you.
"I think the .38 Super is a great round, it's like a suped up 9MM ballistics comparable to the 40 S&W and/or .357 and would make a nice sidearm for Alaska... The smoothest, nicest, sweetest handgun I ever shot was a 1911 Commander size competition race gun in .38 Super... Aside from a .22, it had the quickest site recovery back on target that would be handy on a charging bear... It was a pretty powerful cartridge with low recoil... Owner was a BCI agent"
I've been charged by grizzlies 3 times: 1 time I sprayed the bear, 1 time I deployed my Glock 20 and fired 3 shots, and the 3rd time I had spray at the ready, but the bear turned at 15 yards so I never sprayed.
I'll tell you from my experience, that the thing I feel safest with is neither of them, but rather, a shotgun. It's just not feasible to always have a shotgun over your shoulder. I keep one in the raft or at basecamp.
But I honestly believe that under a circumstance where there is little to no wind and you have time to deploy it, that the spray is superior. A 10mm just doesn't faze a charging grizzly unless you shoot it in the brain and I know people practice a lot and like to think of themselves as ready, but it's just plain and simply really tough to hit a moving target accurately.
If you practice with spray just a little, it's damn near impossible to miss. It just isn't an option if it's really windy or if you're in a tent, etc. And you have to let the bear get really close for the spray to hit it.
I carry both and when I get above the blueberries around 3500-4000 feet where it starts to get rare to see a grizz, I only carry spray and leave the pistol at camp if it's a spike because even the lightest gun is very heavy and weight is paramount in the sheep/goat mountains. Spray shines here because it weighs so much less.
And good to see you still around. Your boys must be solid adults by now….
The whole thing boils down to Ego and Anger. Turning a charge with spray is not seen by most bloodsport-oriented outdoorsmen as Manly And Heroic, but Lethal Force…. yeah, Baby — GIT SUMM!!
Gun Guys always debate how many times they could pull the trigger in a couple of seconds, but you only have to hit the spray button once and hold it, plus you can see where the spray is going and correct your aim, and there’s no recoil to recover from, and the whole time you’re hitting the trigger on the spray can, you’re just making the fog of spray taller, wider, deeper and thicker. And I’ve probably said this already, but a bear that’s not deterred by spray in its face probably won’t be any more discouraged by a couple of bullets striking anywhere but the central nervous system. Either way, you’re gonna get hit.
Given sidearms and bear spray are both ~90% effective in stopping a bear attack, that isn’t the question at all. That is just an attempt by someone to falsely frame the debate in a manner that is supportive of their best guess.
Having both available is good but not always practical. A lot less paperwork with spray if it works. The important part is working to do things right and reduce the odds of a situation.
I love guns and have to qualify at least twice a year due to a security gig I do. So I shoot often. But the spray flat out works.
I also work in a max security prison. Works good there too ;-)
I think remote with Grizzly the gun is the answer.
Matt's Link
From the article:
“ It seems that not even the best preparations could have prevented the fatal attack. When a Wildlife Human Attack Response Team reached the campsite, they found a bear-proof food bag hanging in a tree, as recommended. A discharged can of bear spray was also found at the site, implying the campers had tried to force the animal to leave.”
I bet that couple wished they had a sidearm to stop the charge after their bear spray failed to do so.
Just for the record, if I were going to hunt a drainage known to be part of the home range of one or more grizzlies, I’d want my .45/70 in camp, spray handy to my weak hand and the biggest, baddest pistol I’d be willing to carry on my strong side. Suspenders and a belt and then some.
In camp. Sidearm? Heff Dat. Shotgun or rifle.
Preferred load?
ITEM 8DG 380
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=546
Definitely a heavier bullet made to penetrate; hollowpoints for this round make no sense at all to me, because these bullets are basically pre-expanded…
Even Green-box 405 grain Core-lokts are probably a significant upgrade from most 12-ga slugs….
Zbone's Link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug
I have a single shot H&R 45-70, but if I actually needed protection from a charging grizzly, I'd sure prefer my 12 gauge Remington 1100 stoked with high velocity slugs and buckshot... I remember reading about Alaskan guide Jay Massey stating he kept some kind of a single shot 45-70 device (could only assume it was some kind of single shot pistol) in camp, and I'm like, if I was in Alaska wilderness, I'd want something more than a single shot...
Funny how these threads weave from 10MM to 45-70...8^)
Yup. Beats talking politics…. LOL
Interesting table…. I read somewhere (in a Gun Rag article, many years ago) that a .45/70 can be hot-loaded (along the lines of the Buffalo Bore above) to nearly .458 Win Mag levels…. That writer’s assertion was comparing a custom hot load to Factory Standard spec, which sells the .458 considerably short, but if a .458 Win Mag was good enough for Dirty Harry…. LOL
My shotgun’s a 20 ga double (skeet/skeet), but I have the 1895, which can handle some pretty potent stuff, were I of a mind to get smacked around a bit. Have not had occasion to test my tolerance.. It’s not light or handy like the Guide Gun, but it’s got some capacity and unlike your H&R, it’s a repeater… :D
Zbone's Link
Earlier, I posted the following over on the "Big bore revolver" thread"
https://forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/thread.cfm?threadid=502304&messages=20&forum=2#5296675
Back in the day when I was planning a solo hunt to Alaska I bought this Franchi 48 AL 20 gauge autoloader... Can't read the scale (5 lbs. 6 oz) from the photo but it was the lightest 20 gauge on the market at the time... Some guys around here carried them on organized deer drives for all day walking because they are so lightweight... It's a youth model so I added the recoil pad to fit me better and reduced the barrel length to 18-1/2"... I then got a holster/scabbard to fit it and wear it like a back quiver being able to draw it from over my shoulder like pulling an arrow...
I was going to stoke it with buckshot, slug, buckshot, slug, buckshot... I think I could stop a grizzly with it and would come in handy in a survival situation...
I don’t know if anybody makes it (or even if it could be done, just because of pressures), but an 1894 Guide Gun kind of a deal in .500 JRH seems like it’d be persuasive…. Might have to go to the 1895 in .500 Smith to get a strong enough action…
Beendare's Link
Or maybe those 20-ga sabot rounds which basically are a 405 Core-lokt in a Dixie Cup. Or am I thinking of the “Partition Gold” rounds? I know PG rifle bullets are not intended to expand anywhere near the way that the original Partition does, but I suspect that the slugs are intended for use on softer targets (deer) at longer distances, rather than slamming through a whole deer’s worth of muscle and twice the bone at bad-breath distance…. And bullets are designed for specific applications so that they will actually do what you are asking of them, so it pays to understand the assignment…
“ I’m guessing the difference in a 12 gauge slug and a 45/70 is negligible”
If you hit the brain case, sure. But anywhere else, my money is on the .45/70 (especially with an appropriate heavy load) unless it’s loaded with some flying ashtray of a hollowpoint.
But think about what you’re going to hit if you have a close miss of that brain on a bear that’s coming straight at you…. which is a LOT of muscle and some big bones.
Apart from maybe one Capstick article involving a leopard, I don’t think I have ever heard of a PH carrying a shotgun. PH is pretty much synonymous with Stopping Rifle, and those tend to be not only a lot more potent than any slug load. Also, those loads tend to emphasize limited-expansion/non-expanding bullets. Maybe there’s an exception for following up on wounded lions?
If I already owned a 12-ga pump or semi, I think I would load it up with slugs specifically intended to penetrate like crazy; tell your wife what you have to, but there’s probably no real and specific NEED to run out and buy a .45/70 or any other heavy rifle if you’re only going to suffer through sighting it in and then hope to never have to shoot it again — but I have no doubt that I could find a load for my already-paid-for 1895 which would outperform a slug. ANY slug.
It would hurt.
People tend to disparage buckshot, but that just depends on how close you are. A heavy load (think 3” mag) of 00 buck is a pretty devastating wad of lead hitting in a small area if you are in a defensive situation. It ain’t dangerous if it ain’t close……right ? I know it’s anecdotal at best, but the one deer that I ever shot at with buckshot was literally slapped down to the ground by a 2 3/4” load of 00 buck. All nine pellets hit him at about 30 yards give or take. This was when I was just a kid and only had enough money for one long gun, it had to be a shotgun because ducks, doves, quail, and squirrels were my main targets. There weren’t enough deer in this part of the world to own a “deer rifle” at that time. ;-))
Buckshot may well be the tool of choice for leopards (so I guess cougars, too ;) ), but Capstick was a prolific writer of Dangerous Game Close-Call stories, and I have seen his veracity, ummmmm….Challenged, from time to time…..
When I was about 15, it was all True to me, and I couldn’t get enough of that stuff…. LOL
But “knockdown power” is a myth, escalated by Hollywood depictions of otherwise ordinary firearms which are somehow capable of throwing a large man right through a wall. I’ll just say that’s inconsistent with my understanding of the laws of Physics, what with equal and opposite and all….
But isn’t a load o’ buckshot basically a “big bullet” which has expanded and fragmented before it has even left the barrel?
I have seen a shotgun with 00buck completely stop a big critter in its tracks. Devastating. i don’t want to get into specifics.
00 buckshot is essentially 8 - .32 cal bullets….and I can attest to its “ Stopping Power”
I have never patterned a rifled barrel with 00 buck, but just seems to me that at ranges where you can make a credible case for a DLP shooting, the pattern might well be so tight that it wouldn’t necessarily provide the margin for error which you would be looking for….
And of course, anyone who has patterned heavy buck at close range is expressly invited to share data….
I had thought about the high-density shot angle, but I have really no idea how large you’d have to go to get penetration or how small you’d need to go to get coverage.
And again, Devil’s Advocate, the point of non-expanding bullets is that if you miss the brain, you can still shatter the pelvis, or anything else in between….
And you say you can attest to the stopping power, but on what? Not saying you don’t have good info, but you’re not sharing it much….
I said it earlier... you should probably have what you are comfortable with in your hands at that moment. It'd be crazy for ME to carry a rifle around for <20yd defense situation. I've spent 10's of thousands of rounds on live critters with my shotgun. In a time of importance I'm mostly likely to be able to use it without operator error or even concentration. I'm sure there are plenty of others who feel that way about handguns or rifles.
Corax, didn't you spend half the thread telling everyone they were bloodlusting/macho/ego types that were foolish for considering taking a gun to a bear fight? And trying to convince a guy who expressly wanted opinions about pistols that he should use spray? I may have missed something, why change your stance to rifles instead of spray?
Spray as first line of defense in a charge, vs Pistol (unless your name is Miculek). Way easier to hit with in a real hurry. Ask Ike.
Pistol is probably necessary if a sprayed bear returns, but gotta hope that the spray buys you a little time. Seems that sows will come after you again if they feel like they’re being pursued. I think the young guide who died a few years ago was on a kill with his client and that bear came back also.
But a long gun beats a pistol and guides/PHs carry rifles… not shotguns. Must be reasons.
Just curious....
We do have one or more brazen camp-raiding Blacks (and a resident female cougar) in the drainage above the house, though, so I have spent a bit of time contemplating my options… And who here hasn’t daydreamed about hunting in Grizz country and pondered his personal security alternatives??
Because if you don’t think about your plan before you are facing the bear…. That’s not planning.
As far as the spray is concerned, again, you can carry both. Most charges are bluff charges and shooting and killing a bear can ruin a hunt if you're skinning it out and reporting it to F&G - we're talking lost days and potentially ending the hunt. The last thing I want to kill on a fall hunt is a grizzly when I'm after caribou/moose/sheep/goat.
When a bear is bluff charging, the best option is spray first if there's no wind. I see no reason to only bring spray though. It's very easy to carry both. I have deployed spray down low on a sheep hunt and then had nothing. That's not how you want to end up either.
And if you're bowhunting, most of the time you're going to interact with a bear, you're not going to have a long gun handy and/or your most dangerous encounters are going to come when you dont have one handy, at least that's how it's gone for me, so the whole "this rifle/that rifle" conversation is sort of moot for bowhunters.
DanaC's Link
Bear over-population is getting worse.
Back in the day I played around with buckshot a bit... Both loads were factory 3" magnum shells manufactured by Remington of 00 and #4 buckshot 3" buffered loads... There were 12 pellets in the 00 and 41 pellets in the #4 buckshot loads, and as mentioned, they were buffered loads of hard lead and fiberglass to help with deformation.... They were not soft lead like some sold in bulk these days, these were magnum factory Remington premium loads... They will crumble 20+ pound wild turkeys on the wing at 50+ yards like crumbling black birds with a dose of #8 birdshot...8^) I killed 3 big gobblers on the wing with buckshot... Back when I hunted turkeys my first round was #4 birdshot and follow-ups were #4 buckshot...
Attached photo is of the experiment gun, I called it Stumpy, it was a 12 gauge New England Firearms, model SR1 with a improved cylinder 19-3/16" barrel with end bore inside diameter of .720"...
As I mentioned above, at a dump I shot a stand up stripped out refrigerator with a dose of the #4 buckshot from about 10 paces and it knocked the thing over... This was way before ballistic gels and cell phone cameras nor did I have a camera with me to photograph the pattern, but I distinctly remember if being near perfect and around 15-18" in diameter... It was impressive as was the recoil from Stumpy...8^)
#4 Buckshot is about 20 grains (depending on the lead quality) and .24" diameter... With magnum shells traveling over 1,200 FPS is like getting hit 41 times with a high velocity .22 all at the same time, and we know that the one time world record B&C grizzly was killed by a native woman with a taped up .22 rimfire...
There is no doubt in my mind a grizzly can be stopped at 10 yards with a blast in the face of 3" mag #4 buckshot...
Nyati - As I mentioned above, threads weave...8^)
Several years back at our club 'turkey' shoots we had buckshot rounds. Used 2&3/4 inch #4 buck, 27 pellets. Range was about 28 yards. The best shots might put ten pellets on an 8x10 inch target. And that was with tight chokes. (This is just one observation.)
QQ, though… by how much, would you say, do your chances of a bear encounter go up once you have an animal on the ground or in camp? I’m sure it depends on where you are….
“There is no doubt in my mind a grizzly can be stopped at 10 yards with a blast in the face of 3" mag #4 buckshot...”
“CAN” being the operative term ;)
“a dose of the #4 buckshot from about 10 paces and… I distinctly remember [the pattern] being near perfect and around 15-18" in diameter... “
Devil’s advocate again, so all those who don’t care or don’t think this is worth their time are cordially invited to prove it by scrolling on past or hitting the back button…
I sure as hell wouldn’t want to be anywhere close to the line of fire for that load/gun, but let’s say it’s a beautiful, 16” pattern. That’s a hair over 200 sq inches. With “perfectly” uniform distribution, call it 1 pellet per 5 sq in. If the vital brain area of said grizzly is a 4” circle (12 sq in), then the math comes out not at 41 hits, but 2.5. All of those other pellets are probably going to hit the bear (assuming a good aim) and those that do are going to hurt… but they’re unlikely to kill or incapacitate, let alone immediately.
Still like your odds??
And you said that was with an IC choke; so an open choke would be wider… and a rifled barrel wider still….
And not-for-nothin’, but do I see a half dozen (or more) closely packed .22 bullet holes in that grizzly skull?
At 5 yards I think I'd want 000 and 'cylinder'. (But I haven't tested this on paper.)
Did see my first bear of the year this morning, maybe 225-250 pounds.
Again, I wouldn't shoot at grizzly until within 5 yards and probably wouldn't even aim, likely only point it at the face... If one of those 41 pellets doesn't strike the brain it's still gonna bust jaw bones and teeth... It a direct hit through the nose at 3 or 4 yards, the whole skull would be mush...
If ya haven't shot a 3" Remington buffered #4 buckshot, give it a try, I think they still make them... They are impressive...
The whole pump gun is as fast as an autoloader is pure myth... While shooting IPSC shotgun match I shot 3 plate target staggered at 9, 12, and 15 yards, and all 3 hits in 1.23 seconds from an 1100... Now that was with soft low recoil loads, but can still be done fast with those jaw breaker buckshot loads.... BTW, those IPSC shoots with an audience are high pressure, the adrenalin is flowing...
Not to ignore the difference between stationary and moving targets, but isn’t that usually with an XXFull choke? Worlds apart, WRT group size, no?
You know, it’s a funny thing, but maybe it’s a good thing to have a choke which limits your effectiveness to ranges where you wouldn’t have such a hard time explaining the decision to use Lethal force…. In Dana’s story about the predatory bear, I came across a link to a piece about a guy in Canada who opened up on a bear at considerably longer range “because he was afraid”… The judge agreed that most people are (justifiably) intimidated by a bear, but did not agree that shooting was warranted… so that guy is having some legal issues….
Which brings us back to Ike’s point about not being eager to deal with a dead bear when you can avoid it….
Can’t argue with numbers like those!
