Mathews Inc.
Acceptable Penetration
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
Bowfreak 24-Sep-24
Dale06 24-Sep-24
JTreeman 24-Sep-24
Willieboat 24-Sep-24
FORESTBOWS 24-Sep-24
Charlie Rehor 24-Sep-24
Bowfreak 24-Sep-24
Hunts_with_stick 24-Sep-24
JohnMC 24-Sep-24
Michael 24-Sep-24
Grey Ghost 24-Sep-24
IdyllwildArcher 24-Sep-24
Scoot 24-Sep-24
butcherboy 24-Sep-24
DonVathome 25-Sep-24
Cazador 25-Sep-24
sawtooth 25-Sep-24
Charlie Rehor 25-Sep-24
six 25-Sep-24
sawtooth 25-Sep-24
elkmtngear 25-Sep-24
FORESTBOWS 25-Sep-24
Bowfreak 25-Sep-24
drycreek 25-Sep-24
greg simon 25-Sep-24
APauls 25-Sep-24
sawtooth 25-Sep-24
Charlie Rehor 25-Sep-24
Beendare 25-Sep-24
Bowhunting 5C 25-Sep-24
butcherboy 25-Sep-24
bowelk65 25-Sep-24
Corax_latrans 26-Sep-24
Corax_latrans 26-Sep-24
IdyllwildArcher 26-Sep-24
shade mt 26-Sep-24
elkmtngear 26-Sep-24
Charlie Rehor 26-Sep-24
jordanathome 26-Sep-24
Treeline 26-Sep-24
APauls 26-Sep-24
Glunt@work 26-Sep-24
butcherboy 26-Sep-24
Teeton 26-Sep-24
Glunt@work 26-Sep-24
Mike Ukrainetz 27-Sep-24
Beendare 27-Sep-24
Grey Ghost 27-Sep-24
Cazador 27-Sep-24
Bowfreak 27-Sep-24
Goelk 27-Sep-24
sureshot 28-Sep-24
welka 28-Sep-24
Thornton 28-Sep-24
Beendare 28-Sep-24
Blood 28-Sep-24
Bowfreak 28-Sep-24
PECO2 28-Sep-24
butcherboy 28-Sep-24
HUNT MAN 28-Sep-24
stringgunner 28-Sep-24
WhattheFOC 29-Sep-24
Smtn10PT 30-Sep-24
Knifeman 30-Sep-24
Mike Ukrainetz 30-Sep-24
Beendare 30-Sep-24
BlacktailBob 04-Oct-24
carcus 05-Oct-24
Tracker 05-Oct-24
APauls 05-Oct-24
GotBowAz 09-Oct-24
FORESTBOWS 10-Oct-24
From: Bowfreak
24-Sep-24
I am curious what you feel is acceptable penetration on an elk? Theoretically you shoot at a bull that is quartering away to the point where your arrow hits a few ribs from the back and exits near the heart through a rib. Are you expecting a pass thru every time or are you ok with an arrow that travels through the bull and lodges in an offside rib? To put it another way, would you rather have a pass thru with a 1 1/16” fixed with bleeders or a 2” mechanical stuck in an opposite rib with no exit hole?

From: Dale06
24-Sep-24
I’ll take the fixed 1 1/16” pass through every time.

From: JTreeman
24-Sep-24
I’m not afraid to admit that I’ll take the 2” lodged in opposite side.

—Jim

From: Willieboat
24-Sep-24
The devastation of the mechanical. Usually instant blood and seems to suck the life right out them.

This years bull was exactly a shot like that, arrow stopped in the offside scapula. Dead in 60 yards.

24-Sep-24
I get pass through on most of my elk.

24-Sep-24
I shoot a hybrid (fixed/mechanical) and have complete confidence. A thick, 3/4” fixed, 2 blade combined with a 2” mechanical is devastating. I shoot 60 pounds and a 29” draw, 275 fps. In three years I’ve killed 38 animals and most fell in sight.

From: Bowfreak
24-Sep-24
I’m with Treeman and Willieboat.

24-Sep-24
I will take a pass though with any head all day long

From: JohnMC
24-Sep-24
Put me down for 2" cut 100% through animal vs an almost 1/2 the size cut through the entire wound channel plus a second hole in the hide.

From: Michael
24-Sep-24
I have only shot elk with a fixed heads and have gotten pass throughs with every shot. With that said I would not be afraid to use a mechanical on an elk. 70 lbs, 31” draw and high 400’s grain arrow will do the job. It’s me that has to do the rest.

On a side note. I have never really been a heart shooter. If I hit just above the heart I always thought I was hitting where I wanted.

From: Grey Ghost
24-Sep-24
Give me 2 holes, and an animal that doesn’t know what hit him over one with an arrow hanging out acting like a horse whip any day.

24-Sep-24
I don't use mechanicals, but if you make it to the offside rib, you've done the job.

From: Scoot
24-Sep-24
I was told I had "acceptable penetration" once. I was quite proud. ;)

From: butcherboy
24-Sep-24
I’ll take the fixed blade and complete pass through every time.

From: DonVathome
25-Sep-24
For sure a 2" mech stuck in opposite rib. Blood trail might be a bit tougher to follow with only 1 hole, especially if shot from above, but elk will not go as far. Ideally I want an exit hole - if if just barely, for blood trailing, but I will take cutting a lot more blood vessels over that.

From: Cazador
25-Sep-24
Both guys I was with this year who shot elk were wishing they had two holes when we were on our knees looking for them for hours. Both high entry shots, one Spitfire, one Sevr. Both were horrible tracking jobs and both made it 1/2ish mile. I’m convinced two holes would have been better in these two cases. The one guy has been a long time mechanical shooter, but he’s done with them for elk now.

From: sawtooth
25-Sep-24
Lots of lost elk due to expandables and poor penetration. Having said that, expendables have also killed plenty of elk.

25-Sep-24
I love a good ole Broadhead thread. Everybody loves their Broadhead.

From: six
25-Sep-24
I have shot many animals with sharp fixed blades that don't know they've been shot. That is simply not the case with expandable broadheads. Even the expandable hitting the animal sounds different.

Two holes in an animal and an animal that doesn't feel like he just got punched in the side for me.

From: sawtooth
25-Sep-24
I am in on about 15 archery elk kills per year. Expandables will work, but they often have very poor penetration even on rib and gut hits. I have seen it over and over.

From: elkmtngear
25-Sep-24
I prefer to get an exit wound on elk, especially in thick cover where tracking can be sketchy. This is why I stick to a simple 2 blade head.

That's just me

25-Sep-24
Arrow weight is most important when shooting mechanical heads. 500gr or more for me.

From: Bowfreak
25-Sep-24
Food for thought and I know this goes against the grain as to what is considered fact but some of the best blood trails I have had came from mechanical broadheads that hung up in the opposite shoulder. When I first had this happened I was shocked to see this much blood on the ground from just one hole.

Edit: In this post I was talking about bow kills in general not just elk. I have only shot one elk where my arrow hung up but I did have the same experience as with many deer. A great bloodtrail and a quickly recovered animal.

From: drycreek
25-Sep-24
I’ve never shot an elk with a bow, but I’ll take two holes every time over one, especially if the arrow is still lodged in the animal. I have killed plenty of big hogs, and they don’t give you much of a blood trail. Two holes are exponentially better for blood trails.

From: greg simon
25-Sep-24
I'm in the two hole club. Been a member for over 30 years now!!!

From: APauls
25-Sep-24
I used to be all about penetration and fixed heads and the whole 2 hole argument. I am the opposite now. I've lived in both camps. I lost a giant bull with a small fixed head, and a deer or two. I've never lost an animal with a good cutting mechanical. I've never hit the on side shoulder in my life, but I've hit guts three times. Once with a fixed, once with a Vortex 2" and once with a Rage 2". Guess which 2/3 animals were recovered?

When it comes to blood I've shot way too many animals right in the money with smaller fixed heads and got sparse to completely non-existent blood trails. I've double lunged (verified) with complete pass through and had next to no blood on snow. I have found at least 5 or 6 animals where I found no blood. Where I found them by tracking or searching the direction they went. When it comes to the 2" mechs I've never lost an animal and never had a lack of blood. There is theory and there is reality. With small fixed heads I bet I've got 2 holes half the time. I always seem to bury in the off side shoulder. So I came to the conclusion I'd rather have one hole that is guaranteed to be large and most likely to be dumping blood. The added bonus is that even with the 2" cuts you still get pass throughs sometimes. I will still use a fixed head for moose, but everything else I am all about the entry hole.

From: sawtooth
25-Sep-24
My primary goal is to severe blood vessels and other organs to get the animal killed. From there, I will work hard to locate it.

25-Sep-24
I shoot 60 pounds at 29” draw. I shoot a forward deploy mechanical/fixed head and get a pass through every time unless I hit the off side shoulder. I don’t understand why many think you only get one hole? Maybe some are using a rear deploy mechanical?

From: Beendare
25-Sep-24
My buddy shot a 328" bull last week that had a Rage head wedged in him from about a week before....the wound was still healing. The head hit spine and bounced off.

IME, 2 holes is the way to go with a head they don't feel the hit....my bull this year [thunderhead that didn't even slow down on a pass thru] went maybe 25y and fell down in sight.

25-Sep-24
I have never shot an elk either, but when it comes to mechanical broadheads, I'll say pass every time. Many guys i know have also. 2 holes, in high, out low...

From: butcherboy
25-Sep-24

butcherboy's embedded Photo
QAD exodus broadhead
butcherboy's embedded Photo
QAD exodus broadhead

From: bowelk65
25-Sep-24
22 elk slick trick all the way. this years elk spun at the shot behind the shoulder out the hip 2 holes all day long!!

26-Sep-24
“Blood trail might be a bit tougher to follow with only 1 hole, especially if shot from above, but elk will not go as far. ”

JMO, the Math is not on your side….

A hit animal that remains conscious and on foot for 30 seconds will cover about 1/3 of a mile on a 40 mph death run. One that lives for 2 minutes and doesn’t even know that it’s been hit…. Won’t go as far. Too many guys have had zero reaction to a clean pass-through….

26-Sep-24
Looks like I cut myself off…

Anyway, the only constant among the myriad variables on a hit is Gravity. A high exit is arguably no better than no exit, which would seem to favor an expanding BH… except for how hard the animal runs.

Some years back, my brother zipped a Stinger 2-blade too high through a cow. She stood there trying to localize the foreign sound of his bow.

She stood there, got wobbly, lost control of her sphincters…. And walked away, never to be seen again. Plenty of blood, end to end on the arrow. Maybe a mech would’ve dropped her after a short, hard run?

I don’t think there’s an answer that’s going to be right all of the time.

But I can’t argue with Ike when he says that all of the killing happens inside of the thoracic cavity. OTOH, two holes let in more air to collapse the lungs and let more blood spill on the ground.

Just seems obvious that a Legal Minimum Width fixed blade is one end of the spectrum and a huge mechanical is the other.

I’m shooting a 1 3/16” wide 2-blade which has a 90-year track record. I think it’ll work if I can get a clean shot, but I don’t think it’s going to happen this year…

26-Sep-24
Oh, this is a fixed blade vs mechanical thread and I didn't even realize it.

I thought it was a penetration thread.

Of course two holes are better than one, but shot placement matters so much more than the broadhead. A 1 inch cut or a 3 inch cut through the aorta will drop them in the same spot.

I use COC broadheads only, but I shoot a lower-poundage bow than most. I could get a mech to the offside rib on a broadside shot no problem, but I don't think I could get a mech through the guts and into and through the lung and into the offside rib in a hard quartered away shot on an elk-or-larger animal. I use the same setup for Coues deer that I do for moose. The only change I ever make is switching to a vented BH for sheep.

I think shooting deer-sized animals with a mech out of a 60+ pound compound will probably result in more retrieved animals in the general population, but I've seen an elk lost by poor mechanical penetration, specifically the old Rage. And I've seen another elk lucky to be retrieved because of only inches of penetration on the same head.

I think that if you use a mechanical BH, that you need a heavy-ish arrow.

Personally, I want mid-weight arrow with a COC BH for mountain hunting. I don't ever miss left or right, I miss high or low. And I'm not going to sacrifice any Y axis for a heavier arrow so I can make a bigger cut. My experience has either been clean miss high or low, or else they die in 20-30 yards. A mech doesn't help me out at all.

From: shade mt
26-Sep-24
i always said i don't need a bloodtrail big enough i can follow on a run....i just need enough to track. Way to much emphasis on "how" much blood is on the ground, instead of tracking skills. I have helped on tracking jobs where the lack of recovery, had more to do with what was done right after the shot than anything else.

Things not to do right after your shot....

1. move around....save the fist pumping and cell phone calls for after you find it.

2.....stay put, you don't need to climb down out of your treestand, or go look where you shot him, if its down it isn't going anywhere, if it is still alive, you might push it farther. If your on the ground, STAY STILL AFTER THE SHOT! I hear it all the time..."i backed on out of there and waited"....thinking they did a good thing, when in reality they climbed down or moved right away to soon and bumped it without even knowing it...stay put for awhile, often it will lay down before it goes very far. When you do climb down, do so very quietly, let your stand be for now, SNEAK OUT!...and don't travel where it might wind you.

3. when you do go back to track.....don't take all your buddies along to stomp all over the place like a bunch of rodeo bulls...go slow, go careful, wounded animals leave other sign besides blood, if you know what your looking for.

i have found a number of animals that never left any blood trail......but the odds of finding if you bump them go WAY down.....i'd venture to say if you bump them, the odds are you will NOT find them.

From: elkmtngear
26-Sep-24
"but the odds of finding if you bump them go WAY down.....i'd venture to say if you bump them, the odds are you will NOT find them".

^^^^ This

26-Sep-24

Charlie Rehor's embedded Photo
Don’t forget your “tracking spiders”.
Charlie Rehor's embedded Photo
Don’t forget your “tracking spiders”.
Forward deploy mechanicals are far more effective than rear deploy.

From: jordanathome
26-Sep-24
I'm sorry, not sorry.......this thread title and the 24' elk meat pole were next to each other in the thread list.......LMAO.........I will pass on the 24' elk meat pole as acceptable penetration....no thanks. LOLOLOLOLOL

From: Treeline
26-Sep-24
This year’s elk the broadhead was sticking out the other side. The bull was on the ground in 15 yards. Guess that was adequate. Iron Will 200 grain single bevel wide on a 600 grain arrow off a 57 pound longbow.

From: APauls
26-Sep-24
For what it's worth I killed a cow elk one time with a Sevr 1.5 that didn't react to being hit. It looked like the blade swung out of the way when going through entry side ribs and entered the heart off totally to one side. By the time it exited the heart it was back to "usual" deployment with equal blade on each side and exited the other side normally. Full pass through. She stood there for a few seconds, took a few steps and fell over. Then thrashed for a decent while.

So there might be something to the Sevr not smashing ribs for those guys that like the animal not reacting to the shot. Of course all the variables have to line up - just like a fixed head slipping between the ribs for same thing.

From: Glunt@work
26-Sep-24
Acceptable is through the vitals. Ideal is a leaky exit. I shoot trad and a relatively skinny 2 blade. I like simple 2 blades for several reasons but max penetration from my low energy bow is a big one. I haven't shot enough elk to be an expert. I've always had an exit but avoid quartering away shots. I did shoot one quartering to me that exited behind the off leg. I've also shot smaller stuff quarting away with no exit due to hitting heavy bone.

A big bull quarting away can soak up a lot of an arrow's momentum.

From: butcherboy
26-Sep-24

butcherboy's embedded Photo
butcherboy's embedded Photo
All broadheads I saved the last year I cut wild game in 2019. I’ll let everyone guess which ones were found in archery killed elk or rifle/muzzleloader kills.

From: Teeton
26-Sep-24
The way I'm reading it is your hitting the same with both heads.

Either way that elks going down in a 100yds or less.

The real question is should you shoot a head that going to hit where your aiming for. I'd rather have a head hit where I was aiming, than 5 or 6 inches off. That's the big benefit of a mechanical. There's a few mechanical heads that can give the same results as a fixed head.

I'm still shooting my old trusted mechanical head. The rocket Steelhead. I bought a bunch when they stopped making them. For a good penetrating mechanical head, you want a 3 blade , no more than 1.25 wide, well swept back blades, with no vents.

I've only had one pass thru on a elk with the above setup. I've killed two with fixed, non pass thru.

Pick a small mechanical with the above mentioned specs and you should get pass thru's.

From: Glunt@work
26-Sep-24
Of the potential benefits of a mechanical, shooting straight would be last on the list for me. I would give up other stuff to have a set-up that shoots fixed heads correctly even if I planned on maybe using mechanicals.

27-Sep-24
I question whether a mechanical head is going to go through all of the guts, and completely penetrate the chest cavity on a strong quartering away shot? I’ve seen several hunters shoot elk and moose straight in the guts or chest on a broadside shot and not poke out the other side. But I have also found that most hunters that shoot mechanicals also shoot a relatively light arrow, usually less than 450 grains, often around 400 or less.

The mechanicals also seem to be prone to break off blades, badly bend them, dull quickly or even break the ferrule.

I certainly prefer a sharp, tough, fixed blade head for a strong quartering away shot on an elk or moose. Deer or bear, mechanicals are awesome though!

From: Beendare
27-Sep-24
I use an over penetrating 2 blade or COC 3 blade and always get a pass through unless it's wedged in the off shoulder of an elk. Those heads over penetrate, will break bone to reach vitals, and many times the animal doesn't even know that have been hit- no loud KERPLUNK like some short and over the top mech heads.

I never liked when those inefficient heads would stop in the animal with the arrow hanging out of them pushing them harder as they run away. Of course mechs work, from what I've seen, the COC fixed heads work better.

No matter your BH....you still should fine tune it shooting BH's to the same POI as FP's.... a tuned bow means you found the sweet spot for that particular bow. Less sound, more speed and arrow efficiency.

From: Grey Ghost
27-Sep-24
"The real question is should you shoot a head that going to hit where your aiming for. I'd rather have a head hit where I was aiming, than 5 or 6 inches off. That's the big benefit of a mechanical."

I've never had a problem tuning my bow so that any broadhead of equal weight groups with my field tips, fixed or mechanical. But I know a lot of guys do, and that's the primary reason they shoot mechanicals.

From: Cazador
27-Sep-24
I haven’t shot as many elk as some, but I’ve arrowed near 30 of them and have a pretty good idea how the song goes. Let’s be transparent, you hit an elk where you’re supposed to, even if that arrow is smacking them like a whip they rarely get out of sight. Elk are tough, but when they are hit correctly they go down much quicker than deer. Their system just shuts down and down they go rolling. I think I have actually tracked 2-3 elk out of all of them I’ve shot. The others,I’ve just walked right to them.

From: Bowfreak
27-Sep-24
Really good posts. I am a big fan of mechanical heads but I’m also a big fan of the Exodus. It is still hard for me to set down my current favorite, Grim Reaper Mini Mag, for anything at this point. Shoot great, kill fast, tough enough and reasonably priced.

From: Goelk
27-Sep-24
Pass Thru

From: sureshot
28-Sep-24
Pass through....but, number one contributing factor to blood trail and recovery is blade sharpness, outside of shot placement.

From: welka
28-Sep-24
Get the best of both worlds - get a mechanical built for penetration like a Rage Hypodermic and get TWO big holes for blood to exit. It it stays inside, 2" of edge bouncing around likely does more damage than 1".

From: Thornton
28-Sep-24
Throw away every Shwacker expandable you own and that will be a good start...

From: Beendare
28-Sep-24
I've never bought into the Head staying inside them causing more damage theory. ...thats a figment of some guys imagination. I just saw a bull my buddy shot that had a week old rage buried in him.

If the head is in them it's usually along with the arrow. Every critter I've ever seen with an arrow hanging out of them runs further and faster.

From: Blood
28-Sep-24
There’s one guy who has said a few times he’d rather have an arrow stuck in them than pass through….As he’s said, the animal knows something isn’t right and will stop and lay down LMAO. That’s John Dudley. And what does he shoot….a two blade rear deploying BH. He shoot’s more than enough power too.

I’d rather blow right through every animal I shoot. Heavy enough arrow. Fast enough arrow. And a good solid BH sharpened to shave hair. That flies perfectly.

From: Bowfreak
28-Sep-24
Beendare,

You don’t have to buy into it. It’s just my personal findings based on animals I have shot. I am not the only person who has ever mentioned this either.

From: PECO2
28-Sep-24
On any animal, I like 2 holes.

From: butcherboy
28-Sep-24

butcherboy's embedded Photo
butcherboy's embedded Photo
Here’s the hole the exodus made in the entry. Also busted ribs on the exit. Complete pass through with no damage to the broadhead at all. Not to say that it could and will happen but I’ve been really impressed with this broadhead.

From: HUNT MAN
28-Sep-24
My last 4 elk have been with a 2 inch cut mech .. I like to hit the spot I am aiming at. Watched all but one fall!! Killed plenty with fixed heads also. They both have there plus and minus!!

From: stringgunner
28-Sep-24
15 elk with muzzy 100 grain. And another bull this year. Just can’t seem to find a need to switch.

From: WhattheFOC
29-Sep-24
I probably should even comment on mechanicals because my sample size is 1. But I will anyway.

Shot that mule deer in front of the shoulder, arrow angled down and back thru the boiler room. Downright Levi-esque - what can I say :). The arrow may have grazed (and done the Sevr pivot) the scap, but managed to miss ribs in and out. Despite not hitting bone, the arrow did not pierce the hide on the exit, resulting in almost zero blood on the ground, from the high entry.

However, there is the point that the poi was exactly as intended and the deer was dead in 60-70 metres. Can’t forget that part.

Until I have a reason to think otherwise, I’m continuing with the mech for open country spot and stalk. (Hopefully APauls will hang out with me now.) But when it comes to hunting from my treestand back home, all my shots are inside of 25m … anything I shoot at is leaving the scene with two triangular holes. Deer, moose, elk - it doesn’t matter.

From: Smtn10PT
30-Sep-24
I carry Exodus and Grim Reaper Fatal Steel in my elk quiver. Both are 1 1/4" cut. I expect similar penetration from each. In your scenario I would rather have a 2" mech buried to the offside ribs on a quartering away shot than a pin hole.

From: Knifeman
30-Sep-24
A pinhole?

30-Sep-24
Has anyone had a mechanical head get complete penetration with a strong quartering away shot on an elk or moose?

I mean hitting just in front of the hip, then going all the way through the guts and completely through the chest even if it didn’t come out the other side?

My guiding experience has been a lack of penetration with a mechanical hit in the guts on an elk, or moose, even with a broadside shot. To me, it’s the marginal hits that matter when we are choosing a broadhead, not a perfect chest hit. I would be nervous to take a strong quartering away with a mechanical head, you guys?

From: Beendare
30-Sep-24
My experience with mechs on elk. Not quartering...but many years ago when I was shooting Spitfire mech heads I buried an arrow to the fletch on a frontal shot. I shot 5 elk with mech heads, all dead, no pass thru.

That same frontal I've seen may times mostly with 3 blade heads and the arrow either exited the rear portion of the elk or ended up buried in the hind quarter- about 6 feet of penetration. One very light over draw arrow with a 85g Rocky Mountain head went all the way through that bull [from a frontal] and was poking through the hide on the back ham.

That bull literally took 2 steps.

From: BlacktailBob
04-Oct-24
I don’t feel like I've had enough experience to comment one way or the other.

From: carcus
05-Oct-24

carcus's embedded Photo
carcus's embedded Photo
This years elk, upper wound was a exodus, lower was a sevr hybrid, both arrows blew through, 495gr arrow doing 280fps

From: Tracker
05-Oct-24
I shoot Rocket Steelheads. They are accurate, open up reliably, make nice holes, give goos blood trails and most importantly for me they make two holes. Basically I like a mechanical BH but not the oversized ones. I have killed elk, bear, caribou, Auodad and many many deer with them.

From: APauls
05-Oct-24
If I want to shoot a mech with awesome penetration such as Mike U is asking for I would shoot. Rocket Steelhead. If I want blood everywhere I shoot a Rage or equivalent.

From: GotBowAz
09-Oct-24
Mike Ukrainez, I just killed a 320ish 6 by 6 bull through the high guts, liver diaphragm lungs, through a rib and stuck in the ground from a tree stand quartering away at a very steep angle.

Full disclosure, the shot was 5 yards extremely steep. Out of a 70lb bow with a 535gn, 20 percent FOC, 28" arrow. The broadhead is a 125gn 3 blade 1 3/4" cut Grim reaper razor cut.

The bull went 80 yards in a straight-line down hill. blood sprayed out the exit, very little on entry side . found the huge entry hole plugged with fat.

The bull took a step at the shot so I was a little further back than I was aiming.

I have pictures of entry and exit but I can not seem to figure out how to get them from my phone on this laptop.

GBA

10-Oct-24
I shoot Vortex ss125 and get pass through most of the time. I shot a mule deer a few years ago hard quarter right in front of the hip hit shoulder on opposite side. Look like a rifle dropped him. He never took another step. 350#pound deer.

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