200" now vs then?
Whitetail Deer
I tried to figure it out on the 200" polls thread but there wasn't enough info. Altitude made a good point that management should be producing more big bucks, but where I live I think I've seen the opposite and our best chances were in the 80-90's.
So for those of you who believe you've seen a 200 incher was it before or after 2005?
Born and raised in very good whitetail country I was lucky enough to chase some true 200" deer. Unfortunately, I never tagged one. My last close deer scored 194" taken in 2010. Even though Kansas is 98% privately owned I think the management of the herd is not controlled by the resident hunters. After most of the non-resident hunters spend a week or maybe two here and feel like they need to take something home. That said I would be willing to bet the farm that the average buck shot in Kansas is less than 140". The age structure of deer in my neighborhood is way down in the last 20 years. I have only seen two deer from the stand in the last 15 years that would in no doubt break the 200" mark.
I believe the one I saw was in 2015, this was in Ohio. Not 100% but I'm pretty sure a little gal shot that buck during youth gun season. If I would have been in my stand when I wanted to be , I may have had a chance, I got in around 2:30 pm and he was bedded about 20 yards from my tree.
For me, now is the best time. Less gun pressure than ever coupled with people only wanting to shoot Big deer. Plenty of food plots and plenty of box blinds. When I was young, a buck…. Any buck was special.
SD: Where do you live?
It surely depends on location. Some states are better, some are worse. I’ve hunted 15 states, two Provinces and measure for both P&Y and B&C. For giants Kansas peaked in mid nineties, Illinois around 2005. Pressure is often the culprit.
A 200” whitetail is equivalent to a 7’ human. Extremely rare. The same genetics exist today as in 1995 but more big deer hunters every where so that explains decline in 200” deer in some states.
I’ve seen some before 2005 and a couple after that date. This is mule only. I’ve never seen any whitetail over the 200” mark.
I firmly believe that the availability of tags in Illinois is the reason we’ve lost the 200” bucks. Not arguing good or bad, just stating that we hand out tags like bubble gum. Back in the day when you had just one buck tag, you tended to be pickier.
I'm in Kansas (lived here my whole life). AaronShort pretty much nailed my take on things locally, but I'm interested in the rest of the country too. I agree with you (Charlie) that my chances at a truly big buck were best in the 80-90's. Chances aren't horrible now either, but the state was managed much better back then.
I agree with Charlie. I live in SE-Missouri, all flat farm land. I am out there everyday. I just don't see the the bucks with the bigger headgear. To many, never made it to their third year. lots of shooting houses in fields.
2019 only one I've ever seen. No question on the farm and lease I hunt there are more big deer now then 20 years ago. But that's not suprising when you look at the history of the place. It was hunted fairly hard by our family and any friend who asked and almost everyone hunted it with a brown it's down mentality. In 2006 my mom became the sole owner (it was her father's) and my father and I changed a lot of things. Way less people hunting, size restrictions (except for new hunters), food plots and supplemental feed. Also the attitude of many of the neighbors in the region also shifted like ours to a more management minded approach. Not only has the size of deer dramatically increased but also the number. At our timber company lease about 40 miles north of the farm I'd say the big buck sightings and deer population are about the same as 20 years ago. Also it's had the same management plan for 30 years. Only two places I've hunted for more then 20 years
I'm sure there's tons of places with better hunting than 20 years ago and vice versa. The management of property is the key.
I'm not trying to derail the thread but I also think that making cross bows legal has increased the number of people in the field as well. In the early 90's I only knew of a dozen or so bow hunters. There is a big percentage of crossbows in the woods now that wouldn't be there if they were forced to use a vertical bow. I do euros as a side gig (for roughly 30 years) and this year only 4 deer during archery season came from compounds. Too many people like the easy button and add the Facebook hero pics, smaller bucks meet their demise.
Of the 6 I have seen 5 were between 1995 and 2002. The 2 that I killed 2000 [212 4/8] and 2002 [204 7/8] the last 200 I seen was 2014 I stuck the deer but was unable to ever find it.
Agree with ILbowhntr and some other varibales. Bobcats and yotes have exploded at least in my area.
Last one seen on stand, was in 2009, when I hunted him and did not kill him. A few on cams since but not since 2018.
I killed a 200 in 2005, saw a giant mule deer over that 2 years later, and the other big WT in 2008 or so.
I think hunters are way more efficient now, more technology by far, and way more “QDM”.
Deer hunting today vs the early 2000s is like the NBA when it was all white guys vs what we see today. The game has changed!
I agree, the old and new hot states have changed. There is no such thing as sleeper states any longer.
Here are some notable years for Boone and Crockett deer entries:
1970: 65 whitetails were entered into the records
1980: 73 whitetails were entered into the records
1990: 305 whitetails were entered into the records
2005–2010: 3,090 whitetails were entered into the records, a 400% increase from 1980–1985
Trail cameras enable anybody to know what’s on their property. This causes people to hunt more than they would have and on an area they might not have hunted. When a deer gets huge but is not 200” yet he will be hunted hard increasing the chance of being killed before he has the chance to get there.
I would think that with SOOO many more bowhunters out there now, and the increased reach resulting from faster bows, higher let-offs, and laser rangefinders…. Plus the proliferation of trail cameras, bait/food plots, and the whole “hit-list” mentality….
I mean… When I was falling in love with bowhunting, releases weren’t even legal where I hunted; tree stands were still kind of a new Thing; compounds weren’t really all that much faster than high-end recurves; and the National Average was SEVEN years to get one’s first deer with a bow…
So frankly, I’m amazed that there are still any really “big” deer left out there at all, especially on or near Public.
In my area I would say 20-30 years ago the odds of seeing a 200” were better. Back then, you would have farms that simply weren’t hunted hard and bucks would slip through the cracks and get some age on them.
I would say now with management and passing younger bucks the overall age structure of our deer is better, but most are getting killed once they hit 3-4 years old. Outfitters and out of state landowners generally create some deer honey holes but the ground is getting pressure. You’d be hard pressed to find a farm now that isn’t hunted by the owners and their friends, or leased out.
For me, I’ve never seen a 200” in person or on camera. We had one killed on our place in 2000, and I only know of one of my friends that has had one on camera.
96 was Non Typical
98 was a Typical
24 was Non Typical
Shane
I know a guy that started seeing 190" plus mule deer twenty years ago. And every year since then he "saw the biggest buck I've ever seen this year!". Must be up to at least 250" by now. And they were all "just going over a hill".
So you guys should be looking over hills for the whoppers.
Ha, Rod! We’ve got a guy in our bowhunting group just about like that. He seems to see a Booner pretty much every sit. It’s a bit of a running joke that his “Booner” count resembles the National Debt clock :-)
Back in the 70's and 80's, seemed I chased a least one Boone class buck annually and focused most my time on one such buck on one such farm I had access, and there always seemed to be at least one yearly that got smart and old enough to reach that caliber through to the next season... Learned and seen a lot late season while bowhunting January snows until the last days of bowseason and you kinda got to know what bucks survived and what to look forward to the following season... We didn't have trail-cams then and scouting to find a big one was done with boots on the ground and monitoring summer fields for bachelor groups... Slowly as the farmers and property owners died, sold or cancerous lease their lands, I loss access, so with limited access, I haven't seen a legit Booner class buck in probably a couple decades now, but I would assume some of those properties still not developed produce good bucks but I can't gain access to hunt them anymore...
I think we all were guilty of over estimated inches.:>)))
Until i actually killed a true 300” elk. I thought I had seen hundreds of them. A new post of how many inches off are most people’s guess when judging on the hoof animals.
I’m guessing at least 20” and often 30” credit given. Until you actually kill one that size we all tend to over estimate.
"we all".... You might wanta rephrase that, there are whitetail fanatics with a lot of experience here...
From Boone and Crocket, "Since 2017, nine whitetails ranking top 20 All-time in typical or non-typical categories have been added. Current Top 20 All-time whitetails debuting in the 15th Edition include the No. 3 non-typical scoring 327-7/8 from Illinois, No. 4 non-typical scoring 321-3/8 from Kansas, No. 5 non-typical scoring 315-1/8 from Tennessee, No. 4 typical scoring 204-6/8 from Pennsylvania, No. 10 typical scoring 202-3/8 from Arkansas, and the No. 17 non-typical scoring 282-2/8 from Iowa. The 15th Edition adds trophies accepted 2017 through 2021...
Since 2022 the Club has recognized the new No. 2 typical scoring 211-4/8 from Indiana, No. 3 typical scoring 207-7/8 from Illinois, and the No. 18 typical scoring 200-3/8 from Kentucky." BC
Zbone, I guess I didn’t phrase it correctly. I mean to say. When we are beginners and still learning many of us. (Maybe not you or the experts). Tend to guess high. Until we actually kill one. Measure it and hold it in our hands.
Now with the internet. Many are experts without ever killing one.
I agree, AS, I personally wouldn’t try to claim seeing a buck over 200 inches without knowing what it actually measured. I have the sheds from the one I’ve seen, so I know for sure. Not many folks, percentage wise, have ever seen a legit 200 inch deer but everyone thinks they have. I think my father saw 2, in his whole life.
I agree too with an earlier post about the age structure overall being better due to guys managing private ground, but most deer being killed by 4 1/2 yrs old. They need to get to 6 1/2 for sure to reach full potential and not many places out there that bucks get that old regularly. Factor in that only one in hundreds has genetics to ever get to 200 inches if the deer lived to die of old age and you see the odds.
R
I only started bowhunting around 2011 and got serious about whitetails around then or just before, so I guess I can’t really answer the question, but from what I gather, our archery only zones in MB were pretty stacked in the early 2000s. My guess has always been there were more of them (200” ers) but we definitely have the advantage now in getting them killed. That would also be why there’s less, because most guys will put the heart and soul into killing a 160+ and we’ve got a lot of gear now to help us get it done.
Altitude Sickness - Yeah I get what you're saying, folks knowing I'm a whitetail fanatic come up to me at times saying how big of a buck they seen holding their arms stretched over their head but in reality, it's probably a decent 4x4 or 5x5, and most all say how huge the body...8^) My lady pulled in her drive at night in November and seen what she called the huge buck in her yard, said it was the biggest deer she ever seen, (the buck was tending a doe)... She's lives in town and has been there over 20 years and had never seen a deer in her yard before... So I start probing her for answers, like how wide, how high while using my hands, and all answers were "I don't know, I don't know", all I could get out of her was how "huge" it was and how afraid she was to walk to the door...8^)
But then, some of the experience hunters I know will give details of how wide, high and mass... Then I'll ask, where was this?...8^)
As for wild 200 inchers, as said in the other thread, I've only seen 2 that were guarantee 200" gross, and one was 50 years ago and the other 20 years ago, and that one was crossing a national park boundary cruising to private properties, so I suspect he spent most of his time in the NP... So I figure 20 from 50 is 30, and in about 10 more years I may see another...8^)
M.Pauls - I was born and grew up in Tuscarawas County Ohio, and still hunt here and surrounding counties, mainly Harrison which this whole area is prime Ohio big buck country, the genetics are here, but so is the hunting pressure... If one is lucky or smart enough to reach 6 years of age here and healthy, which a buck of that age would be rare here, he'd likely have a high caliber rack...
Here is a couple local bucks... Top one was killed on neighboring farm of an 80 acre farm I lived on for a couple years in the old farm house back in the 1980's... The second one was killed on the neighboring farm my x-girlfriend's childhood friend that we visited with a few times (annual party actually...8^))) and I guess the guy killed it just a few weeks after we were at their farm, but I never seen it...8^)
Never heard what either of them scored, but the genetics are here, if they could only live long enough... None die of old age around here, that I'll bet on...8^)
I've hunted and worked in all these counties, and my eyes are looking for deer 365 days a year...8^) Both these bucks were killed illegally just a few miles apart and confiscated by the DOW... The massive racked buck NET scores 256-5/8" B&C typical and adorns the wall in the regional DOW office... I seen it around 1980 when the shooter had it full body mounted, then later as a wall mount at the DOW office... Yeah, from killing it in 1975 to 1980, he had it a while before they busted him... Rumer has it he shot it with truck headlights assistance half hour before legal shooting time, then later had a riff with either family or friends and they later turned him in... It was an amish community...
The other was said to be 26-pointer, 4.5 years old and scores 228-7/8 NET B&C nontypical... Never heard what happened to the rack, would assume the DOW has it somewhere...
Wow zbone, I'm envious of the mass each of those bucks have! Very cool!
Yeah SD, I am very fortunate to have grown up hunting my grandfather's farm in Harrison county, and my one uncle had a farm in Coshocton County, and one of my great uncles had a farm in Guernsey County and to still live here in T-County... When I said I've seen at least two 200" bucks, I've seen at least two 200" bucks...8^) Growing up with the deer herd in the 60's and seeing my first giant hooked me early and they seemed to have been an obsession in life since...8^) That buck did something too me... Like the song goes, "Put a spell on you"...8^)
Now for the unfortunate, those men have all passed and I no longer have any access to the farms... To this day there is still a riff between my dad and I because he and his brother sold "The Farm"... It still hurts, that and him selling Grandpa guns...8^(((
Both of these bucks came from neighboring T-County too, top one is a crossgun kill, NET scores 258 1/8" B&C nontypical... I think it has 27 scorable points if I remember right... I think I know the area he killed it and if so, I've probably drove by that buck's home territory a zillion times, but I never seen him...8^) It reminds me of the one I shot at as a kid with my 20-gauge single shot...
I also worked 30 years out of my center that was a 20-mile drive from where the Hole-in-the-Horn was found... I took some time one day and walked the tracks where he was found... I didn't see him either...8^)
The other I think is a dead head Pat may have originally posted... Haven't any info on it, only Carrol County in 2020... Maybe he can give an update...
We're both fortunate men zbone! I grew up and still love in KS. Lots of the "old guys" shot deer like that when I was a kid (none scored other than counting points). Holding a set of antlers like that does something to ya. Wasn't legal to hunt here until you were 14 (bow, 16 rifle). I got my first bow and practiced for 2yrs before I could buy a tag. First sit is saw a doe. Been hooked ever since! The deer you're posting are what dreams are made of!
Yeah SD, we are fortunate... What kind of hunting pressure does your area receive? My area gets heavy hunting pressure being close approximately to the NE Ohio Metro areas of Canton/Akron/Cleveland... We get hammered... Funny thing is I worked in those areas most my adult life and the biggest bucks I've seen the past couple decades have been up there in urban areas, yet the blaze orange army from the north comes down here to slaughter...8^) Most bucks don't get time to mature, and then we have the amish, but I won't to get into that...8^)
I know what you mean about old timers and deer mounts, as a telephone tech I was in many homes through the years and remember in one old farm house near Cadiz and elder lady lived alone (I think) and on the wall was two terrific massive racks on old school mounts... They were huge, I'm sure if scored they both were legit Booners... That was years ago and have wondered what they would have scored and where they are now...
This is kinda funny... Then there was this big beautiful home outside of Chardon with a huge trophy room... You could tell the people had money... The walls were lined with mounts of all kinds, African game, exotics, etc (probably like some guys here...8^)) It was impressive... As I looked around, he had a bit of everything from all corners of the world, including most of North Ameriacn big game, mule deer, elk, moose, sheep, goat, bears although I don't remember if he had a Polar bear, but I think he had a grizzly... Anyhow, I noticed he didn't have a whitetail I hadn't seen and asked if he had one... He replied, "No, I never killed one yet I wanted to mount"... I didn't say a word but kinda chuckled inside myself thinking, "Yeah, big whitetails are hard to come by"...8^)
Yeah SD, once you get your hands on a good mature buck laying there with good antler mass and pull that head up,,, too late, you're done for, hooked for life...8^)
Speaking of first deer, I've told this here before, but I killed my first deer, a button buck as a little shaffer with a .22LR rimfire, but that's another story for another time...8^)
Altitude Sickness, do you think the numbers B & C entries have gone up the same percentage as with the deer population(s) over the years? With the advancement of deer hunting equipment, trail cams, food plots, in some place higher deer densities, and with many more hunters seeking recognition for their trophies does that mean there are more big deer or that a lots of men in the 80's late 90's didn't worry about getting bucks in the books? As PushCo stated, in our home state of Okla things have been getting better in a lot of the areas in regards to numbers and antler size. Especially in the last 9-10 years. Talk to any of our neighbors to the north in Ks and most will say their numbers and size are certainly down.
The one I noted in the other thread was early 00's. But if you asked about 170-190's, I've seen more shot in my area in the last 10 years... But it could be social media. Now a hunter shoots a big deer 50 miles away and we all see it. Even in 2010, social media was not as pervasive. And the BIG ones were seen / killed by someone you know. So we have more exposure to big deer now than then, thus seeing a 175 seems more common, but very well may not be.
Zbone, pressure is spotty. Lots of leasing and outfitting here. Some outfitters care about longevity of the resource, some put a new group on every 80 every weekend for 3 months each fall. Some leases are a local guy and his son, some are large groups of guys from other states. Each scenario pans out differently for pressure and a guy just hoped and preys that if you have land to hunt that you have the "right" neighbors.
Cane pole, I've lived in KS for 51yrs. About 15yrs ago I said KS was going to disappoint many who believed the hunting shows about giants, and that at the same time KS was declining that OK was shooting up. I think OK is a huge sleeper state (parts of it anyway).
Thanks SD for the info...
SD-there is sleeper spots in nearly all states especially the good ones
