Sitka Mountain Gear
Who is the Full Curl Society
Wild Sheep
Contributors to this thread:
tthomas 20-Aug-09
Matt 20-Aug-09
NvaGvUp 20-Aug-09
CO Oak 21-Aug-09
BULELK1 21-Aug-09
Matt 21-Aug-09
Sandbrew 21-Aug-09
NvaGvUp 21-Aug-09
Genesis 21-Aug-09
MNHunter 21-Aug-09
NvaGvUp 21-Aug-09
Zbone 21-Aug-09
MNHunter 21-Aug-09
BULELK1 21-Aug-09
NvaGvUp 21-Aug-09
Sandbrew 21-Aug-09
NvaGvUp 21-Aug-09
Sandbrew 21-Aug-09
NvaGvUp 21-Aug-09
RamDreamer 21-Aug-09
NvaGvUp 21-Aug-09
thetthomas@home 22-Aug-09
NvaGvUp 22-Aug-09
Zbone 22-Aug-09
TD 22-Aug-09
NvaGvUp 22-Aug-09
TXHunter 22-Aug-09
NvaGvUp 22-Aug-09
Zbone 22-Aug-09
TXHunter 22-Aug-09
TXHunter 22-Aug-09
Zbone 22-Aug-09
NvaGvUp 22-Aug-09
Zbone 22-Aug-09
Zbone 22-Aug-09
NvaGvUp 22-Aug-09
TD 22-Aug-09
Zbone 22-Aug-09
TD 22-Aug-09
NvaGvUp 22-Aug-09
NvaGvUp 22-Aug-09
Genesis 23-Aug-09
NvaGvUp 23-Aug-09
TXHunter 23-Aug-09
NvaGvUp 23-Aug-09
Genesis 24-Aug-09
tthomas 24-Aug-09
BULELK1 03-Sep-09
mn_archer 03-Sep-09
Sandbrew 14-Feb-10
BULELK1 14-Feb-10
NvaGvUp 14-Feb-10
sheephunter 15-Feb-10
Panthera lupus 16-Feb-10
From: tthomas
20-Aug-09
Any thoughts or insight on these guys? Don Peay and Karl Malone are the founders. Karl is kicking in 200k to get it started.

From: Matt
20-Aug-09
Never heard of the organization. Where did you hear about them?

You will get...diverse...opinions on Peay. Very smart man, understands the political process and has some very good ideas about making the hunting community a political force. Closely tied into SFW. Many cite him as the primary instigator of making Utah a trophy state to the detriment of over-all opportunity.

Malone is a former MBA player, very, very generous donor to the hunting community.

From: NvaGvUp
20-Aug-09
It's part of, or a spin-off of, Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife. Notice their event is part of the Salt Lake WHCE show.

Apparently they don't think there's enough divisiness among the sheep community as a result of the lawsuit GSCO filed against FNAWS in 2006 over a terminology that was in existance for decades before GSCO even existed. So they've decided to throw fuel on the fire.

From: CO Oak
21-Aug-09
I found absolutely nothing on the internet about the group other than this thread. Where can I learn more about them?

From: BULELK1
21-Aug-09
It is prolly tied into Utah FNAWS....some how some way....$$$$$$$$......or maybe this gig is to replace UFNAWS as the new ground breaking 1st Charter-Chapter of this 3rd sheep org.....?

We have chatted in the past CO Oak....

Good luck, Robb

From: Matt
21-Aug-09
My take is Peay is trying to fill the sheep void at the Utah show that will be left when WSF/FNAWS moves back to Reno, in an effort to pull some of the sheep folks (and their $$$) from Reno to SLC.

From: Sandbrew
21-Aug-09
I have a copy of the 12 page PDF flyer I can email to folks if they want to see it. Email me at Sandbrew@aol.com

Matt is 100% spot on in my mind.

One interesting thing I saw on the flyer FULL CURL and all of its names 1/4 curl, 1/2 curl etc are Trade marked by Utah FNAWS.

So is Utah FNAWS going national?

Sandbrew

From: NvaGvUp
21-Aug-09
Matt,

WSF left the WCHE show in SLC because too many of our members and outfitters told us they would not go to Salt Lake.

Sandbrew,

As for those terms being trade-marked by UT FNAWS, they almost immediately gave FNAWS/WSF and our chapters permission to use those terms simply by asking.

From: Genesis
21-Aug-09
"One interesting thing I saw on the flyer FULL CURL and all of its names 1/4 curl, 1/2 curl etc are Trade marked by Utah FNAWS."

OVIS/GS changed baseball forever and now UFAWS will impact weightlifting.....

or maybe life will go on and more money will be raise collectively than with a single group.

Definitely interesting though

From: MNHunter
21-Aug-09
Wait....wasn't Mr Peay on the board of WSF formerly FNAWS? Is he no longer?

So now we will have WSF, GSCO, & the Full Curl Society??

From: NvaGvUp
21-Aug-09
MNHunter,

Peay's term on the FNAWS board ended on April 30, 2007.

From: Zbone
21-Aug-09
Sounds like more turmoil in the sheep organizations.

From: MNHunter
21-Aug-09
Thanks Kyle. So he took his ball and went to start his own game. Interesting.

From: BULELK1
21-Aug-09
So there will be 3 Grand Slam orgs now?

Good luck, Robb

From: NvaGvUp
21-Aug-09
BULELK1,

"Let us face the facts fella's.......donnie boy cost our beloved FNAWS close to $10 million in Lawyer fees-----plus he cost our beloved FNAWS close to $2 million in settlement with Mr. Cambell and GSC....."

Yeah, let's look at the facts, Rob, my friend:

1. Our legal fees are ~ $1.5M, not $10M.

2. The lawsuit was filed before I got on the board, but to my knowledge, Don was not the one who helped us get into it.

3. GSCO has not been paid a penny by WSF and may well never get a penny. The current status is that the chief judge told both parties in May that she was reviewing our motion to call a mis-trial, which would throw out the verdict. She has given GSCO some time to file a brief as to why she should not do that. Because trial transcripts are not yet available, she has extended the deadline for them to do that until October.

4. The name change had nothing to do with the lawsuit and legally we are still FNAWS with a DBA of The Wild Sheep Foundation.

Got to run. More later as questions may follow.

Kyle

From: Sandbrew
21-Aug-09
Robb- How do you really feel?

Should made this topic "debate free"

NvaGvUp-

Does this apply to the affilates as well? Any idea how they notified the chapters? Last I spoke to the current RMBS Pres he knew knowing about unveiling of FCS or the agreement to allow the use of the terms.

Sandbrew

<< As for those terms being trade-marked by UT FNAWS, they almost immediately gave FNAWS/WSF and our chapters permission to use those terms simply by asking. >>>

From: NvaGvUp
21-Aug-09
Sandbrew,

I believe it does, but you should contact Ryan Fouts @ Utah FNAWS for confirmation.

From: Sandbrew
21-Aug-09
Thanks - I will pass the info on.

From: NvaGvUp
21-Aug-09
Sandbrew,

"Any idea how they notified the chapters?"

Sorry for missing this one from your post.

We had our chapter leaders into a meeting here in Reno last month. Ryan brought up the trademarking of those terms, then told everyone there all they had to do was ask.

BTW, it's likely that the next time we do this annual meeting, we will invite our affiliates as well.

From: RamDreamer
21-Aug-09
Use of the terms which are now utilized by Full Curl Society are pretty plainly spelled out on the final page of their brochure: "Full CurlTM, 1/4-CurlTM, 1/2-CurlTM and 3/4-CurlTM all are terms trademarked by the Utah Chapter of the Foundation for North American Wild Sheep. Any use of these terms requires the prior written permission of Utah FNAWS."

Written permission means just that.

From: NvaGvUp
21-Aug-09
In other words, all you have to do is ask. ;^)

22-Aug-09
I have a trade mark on "Never Give Up" but if you ask and pay me you can use it. Kyle sends me a $1 every time he uses it. He gets to pay in Canadian funds. All others pay in US dollars only. YKWITA

Plus I don't even require written permission. Checks have been coming in like gangbusters and I will use the proceeds to good use. Am thinking of helping out some of the sheep herds by removing large and old rams that are past their prime. Have been doing this program for many years but with low success. Might also TM Sandbrew and RamDreamer to increase the funds to my conservation fund. I gaurantee not one dollar gets wasted and I don't charge any money to look after the organization. Figure if I patent Matt, BullElk and Genesis I might be able to do a few more hunts, YKWIS....oh ya I have a patent on that too.

From: NvaGvUp
22-Aug-09
tthomas,

Well done! lol

From: Zbone
22-Aug-09
Jimmy V Foundation beatja to the "Never Give Up" trademark...8^)

From: TD
22-Aug-09
tthomas, LOL!

How anyone can trademark common terms is beyond me. Full curl, half, etc. have been used in speaking, in books and magazines since sport hunting sheep first existed. It's a measurement like oz, lb or qt.

Trademark? Maybe like a Quarterpounder (tm), you could call something a Half-curler? Sounds like my mother getting ready for bed.

Maybe it should be the Full Kurl Society. Or better yet the Full Karl Society.

Matt probably has this dead on. Follow the money. From what I hear from more than a few Utah folks, this guy Peay follows it like a bloodhound on a trail.

From: NvaGvUp
22-Aug-09
Note that the use of the Full Curl terms require no money to UT FNAWS. Only written permission. That's the opposite of what GSCO does.

From: TXHunter
22-Aug-09
Why did they trademark them then Kyle? To keep that "other group" from being able to use them?

From: NvaGvUp
22-Aug-09
TXHunter,

I suspect they went for the trademark for two reasons: 1. Establish a marketable term that would compete with the term Brand X decided belonged to them fifty-plus years after the term came into the public domain, and; 2. Keep somebody else from trademarking those terms down the road and then deciding to charge others for their usage.

From: Zbone
22-Aug-09
Wonder what it cost them to trademark these terms?

From: TXHunter
22-Aug-09
I see.

From: TXHunter
22-Aug-09
Woody I hope I have to ask your permission to use one of them in a story one day....

;)

From: Zbone
22-Aug-09
What.... Let me get this straight... If I (or someone) publishes material, say like in a book or magazine, and the writer quotes "shot of full curl ram”, that it is now against the law without Utah FNAWS permission???

From: NvaGvUp
22-Aug-09
ZBone,

That's the way GSCO treats their terms, at least with FNAWS/WSF. But I'd be very surprised if UT FNAWS intends to anything more than protect those terms regarding awards and perhaps promotion of their events.

You'd really need to ask Ryan or someone else @ UT FNAWS.

From: Zbone
22-Aug-09
Again, how much did this trademark cost, cause I have a whole buch of hunting terms I want to trademark...

From: Zbone
22-Aug-09
Woody already has - "Curl and a quarter" and "Curl and a half"

I want to register – Spike, 3-point, 4-point, Forkhorn, Forkie, Forky, 5-point, 6-point, 7-point, 8-point, 9-point, 10-point, 11-point, 12-point, 13-point, 14-point, Sticker, Browtine, and Booner… Oh, I have a bunch more too…8^)

From: NvaGvUp
22-Aug-09
Bring it up with GSCO, fellas. It's their actions are causing other organizations to do stuff like this.

From: TD
22-Aug-09
"Booner"'s likely taken by some rifle guy...

From: Zbone
22-Aug-09
This madness needs to end.....

From: TD
22-Aug-09
Kyle, these orgs, in theory anyway, are supposed to be for the sheep? It would seem the more independent sheep orgs that exist out there the more "diluted" the sheep programs become?

Unless the particular org itself is more about the sheep hunter than the sheep themselves I guess.

Anyway, with what logically would seem a limited amount of funds up for grabs out there, is there some concern with the current orgs about any effect any new one might have?

From: NvaGvUp
22-Aug-09
TD,

It's very divisive as you suggest. Guys can only go to a limited number of outdoor conventions each year. To make things worse, the sheep hunting community is very small. To divide an already limited audience in this way is not good for the resource.

That said, we're getting a very positive feedback from our members and our exhibitors because The Sheep Show Returns To Reno!!

We hope you guys will be there! Our goal is to "Wow!" you with loads of fun, comaraderie that only the sheep hunting community has, and a strong conservation message

From: NvaGvUp
22-Aug-09
TD,

"Unless the particular org itself is more about the sheep hunter than the sheep themselves I guess."

WSF/FNAWS is and always has been about the sheep. No other organization comes close. The percentage of the dollars we raise vs the dollars we put into projects, research and our mission is the highest of any wildlife organization I know of.

If you want to go get an award for killing sheep, there's a convention for that as well. If you want to promote the conservation of wild mountain sheep, join us at The Sheep Show in Reno next February.

From: Genesis
23-Aug-09
NVA,I recommend that you trademark the term Full O' Bull because in regards to Ovis that's exactly what your shoveling.

In fairness you really don't know what OVIS intentions are.

I would say speaking authoritatively about your speculations is a qualifier

Funny you use the word divisive and then go a one sided campaign against a fellow sheep org.

There is a new generation of sheep hunters looking to support some group(s).

Everyday is a new day if you choose to make it such

From: NvaGvUp
23-Aug-09
Genesis,

I suggest you study the issue here Steve and that you also take a look at which organization is a conservation organization and which is an awards organization.

From: TXHunter
23-Aug-09
As I stated on another thread my research into the facts supports what NVA is saying 100%. Sometimes the old "let's not be divisive" attitude is counterproductive. If something is not good for hunting/conservation people should know that. Unity just for the sake of unity means nothing except that you are capable of acting like sheep(please pardon the unintended pun).

From: NvaGvUp
23-Aug-09
TXHunter,

Thanks.

"Divisive" is when one organization sues a conservation organization for a sum that would put the conservation organization out of business. And all over a term that was used commonly by the public for decades before the first organization even existed.

From: Genesis
24-Aug-09
"I suggest you study the issue here Steve"

I suggest you not make assumptions about what someone knows just because it creates an ideological conflict for oneself.

"Thanks"

I guess I could assume you check your mirror to often instead of addressing your distractors.

I could also assume that if it was about the sheep for you, you would move on and not speak divisely as everyone moves FORWARD.

BUT I WON'T/DON'T

Nobody is naive enough to not realize that another stories' side doesn't exist.

Lawsuits are just as divisive as posting derogatory comments on the web....years later.

Is pretty easy to smell the venom in your words and really helps the case for Ovis to have to take unfortunate action.

Just my viewpoint,which mostly stems from the productive nature of burying the hatchet in the ground vs a back.

On that I will digress,nothing personal Kyle

Now I have to send tthomas money for using Nva.....:)

From: tthomas
24-Aug-09
I'm counting and looking forward to another eight dollars, YKWITA

From: BULELK1
03-Sep-09

BULELK1's Link
See my link.....

Intersesting read about the 'Full Curl' gig.....

Yeh-- I know....folks in Alaska are just self serving.....

Good luck, Robb

From: mn_archer
03-Sep-09
I hope I am not stepping on any toes here but this leaves a bad taste in my mouth. First of all, i am not seeing where people who have not taken any sheep can even be a freakin memeber! I had to have missed it, but...

An associate membership is $40 per year and only for those who have taken at least one Sheep.

A full membership is $100 and is only for those who have taken all 4 species of sheep.

One of the board members is on there because he donated $4mil to SFW.

There are no administrative fees. How can that be? Secretaries will work for free? Peay and Malone I can see, but all administrative staff will work for free now? for how long?

I see this as some sort of power grab. There will be a lot of money and some great poeple going to another orginization when WSF is already a PROVEN organization who has proven over and over again that they truly are there for the Sheep.

There has to be some serious internal politics with peay leaving WSF and now this, and maybe it is better we not know the dirty details.

michael

From: Sandbrew
14-Feb-10
Anyone else attend the Social yesterday?

Just curious what you all thought?

My views are "tainted" at this point since Karl Malone drew my name for a sheep hunt 1 ticket to early and I had to throw it back!!!!!

Sandbrew

From: BULELK1
14-Feb-10
We all lost Stars on this topic!!

'nuph' said....

Good luck, Robb

From: NvaGvUp
14-Feb-10
Robb,

Nah, you lose stars retroactively if you post something the moderators don't like. Then it applies to all of your prior posts, no matter what thread or forum you committed the transgression on.

So I might have posted a 'love note' to some moronic bed-wetting liberal on the community forum last week, lost a star for it and that would have kicked back and now be showing on every post I ever made on any forum prior to that.

From: sheephunter
15-Feb-10
It was an interesting meeting. Well attended and well funded apparently. Those Utah guys put on a good show and have done some amazing things with their sheep in the last 20 years.

16-Feb-10
The FCS meeting on Saturday in SLC was initially planned for approximately 100 attendees--based on pre-registered forms. Don felt like it would probably be closer to 500, with those joining at the door. The reality was nearly 2,000 waited in line for almost an hour--delaying the start of the meeting, while more chairs were brought in to accomodate the pressing crowd. I am as unsettled as the rest of you regarding the fragmentation of an already small group, but Don has a successful formula in place and a track record peppered with politicians and donors to continue that success here with the FCS.

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