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Have you determined the shear strength of the the bolts holding the steps?

Which alloy are you using? Are all parts the same alloy?

I am not a Machinist! I paid somone to machine them for me! Water jeting these out would be the way to go if you could get a good deal on getting them made! The expensive thing is the damn tie down straps! All of the bolts, steps & V tree lock guide have been put under FEA stress test and the bolts are are large enough that any force that would be applied to them (moment loads and shock loads) would not surpass the shear factor of the bolt(BHCS). The shear factor on these would be far beyound what stresses would be applied to them. Thanks!

Do you have any picture?

I'm not selling these! These are for me and I love the simplicity of the climbing sticks. Have you ever tried to put up a 50 pound "ladder" in the morning without making noise? Good luck. These are for mobility and quitness, not set it up before season and you're stuck there for the rest of the year. Lone Wolf & Muddy have similiar Climbing sticks. However the Cheapest ones are $30-$75 each. I can make these for myself with my time included for $24.44 each (complete)! I'm not interested in ladders that are steel and heavy! I wouldn't have made them if I could buy them for cheap? I respect your opinion but not interested in CHEAP!

Their proximity to one another creates a greatly multiplied leverage when weight is applied to the outer end of the step (and you have to engineer for the guy who will step out there, not the one who will center his weight midstep).

This proximity could also be a factor in the strength of the main beam as well as that of the step and the bolts.

This is an often missed factor in design. Had a Chevy compact two-door once that needed the door hinge pin bushings replaced very frequently because of the door weight being suspended on hinges that were closer together than in earlier (taller) cars where the same pin bushings had lasted many years.

From a background of thirty one years as a toolmaker and a lifetime of fascination with design, I'd like to see a wider step base to allow more separation of the bolts, at least. Even better would be a revision to include an "L" shaped step that would bolt to the side of the main tube, placing the bolts in compression rather than shear, and with a reinforcing plate on the opposite side of the main beam to assure that neither oveertightening of the asembly nor the load applied in climbing would distort the main beam.

I would also agree with the point above regarding the bolt sticking out towards the climber, apparently for an attachment point for the retaining strap. Prefer to see that catch point eliminated by attaching the strap by other non-protruding method (at the upper tree standoff?).

And, to my eye, the standoffs look kind of short. Probably OK for a guy with short feet climbing a slender tree, but it looks like my 6' 5" nephew would be climbing a hefty tree with only his boot toes on the steps.

All meant to be strictly in the spirit of constructive criticism, not nitpicking negativism. I enjoy seeing someone working to improve design or to make something doable for the home builder, and I applaud your efforts. Just trying to toss a couple of things into the mix that might be worthy of your consideration.

In all those years as a toolmaker, I seldom saw a design come through the toolroom that hadn't been redesigned and modified several times after initial use revealed the need, and these were designs from the desks of professional tool engineers that were subject to review by an engineering department head with many years of experience in our particular field of manufacturing. Prototype X-01 seldom flies as well as X-15.

Good Luck.

I completly love productive critisizm! That's how things get done! On your door hinge, the moment load is very heigh because were the hinge point is to the end of the door may be 3-4 feet. I agree with the "spacing the bolts out on the steps" this also lessons the moment load by spacing them out. You will always have a moment load & not a "crushing load" on the steps! The steps are 5" wide! I have a very wide foot size 12EE. Your toes are approx. 2" away from the tree when your foot is on the step.

Any ideas on elimination the should bolt in the front? Muddy has a good design (rope clamp), but Lone Wolf has a similiar desing as mine! Regarding the shoulder bolt shear, it is not a factor. It is a 5/16" shank and it is a hardened bolt. You would have to be 1400 pounds to shear it off! The load with the shoulder bolt is a combination of "shoulder bolt" & "load into the tube" towards the tree.

I am a machine designer and have been in metal fabrication,product design & automaiton design for 12 years. Love it! I just wish I could make a living doing this stuff though! Thanks for your opinion "respected" ! BC

Yes, for 12 years now! Are you a CAD guy/gal?

Could you find me a link on what your calling "cat paws"?

With our beer bottles aka bottle lines and the crowners we always have to design improvements where we utilize compression.

Fantastic job in making them!!!!! Very impressive

Used to work for a big industrial plant. We had great maint. guys and machinists, but they would make changes or fab things without asking any qustions until something broke and they'd finally call us to take a look. Had one time they replaced a bunch of steel ladders to cat walks w/ aluminum ladders that they fabricated in the shop. They were light, they looked great, but the aluminum alloy that they had welded was not meant to be welded. Needless to say, after a couple of uses one of them broke while someone was on it. I also used to help my grandfather farm a little, and he was as hard headed as any man you'll ever meet. He'd try anything. Problem was, if it didn't work, you found out about it while in use. LOL

Looks/sounds like you've done your homework. Nice looking sticks.

Not at all! I'm not perfect by no means and critisizms are great when designing things. You weed out bad ideas & retain the good! My thread sounds proud but it must have read different than if I were to say it to you in person! No feelings hurt! Thanks for the complements!

No, not a CAD guy but I appreciate the ingenious capabilities of CAD. I sent you a PM.

this isnt the exact one I was thinking of but it gives you a idea just screew into up right or a flate plate across . CHECK EBAY TOO steve .

Where might a fella find smokin deals like this? (Sorry to hijack the thread, AR, awesome stuff!)

I like them, what happened to the idea of longer with a 3 step pattern?

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/climbing-stick-and-tree-stand-combo-by-guide-gear.aspx?a=552579

Nice work, DUCK and AR34.

Great JOB!!!!!!!!!! once again

Nice effort, but I don't know how much money and weight you are saving over the Lone Wolf. You can get 3 of them with 3 steps on each for about $100. that's about the same cost for you to get as high as that.

LBB

I don't have the design or mechanical skills that you have, but I have welded up several simple ladder stands using Uni-Strut and expanded metal. I did it for the fun and to make them strong enough to support my plus sized brother and to have a large platform. They are definitely not light or mobile, but gives us a sturday stand that can stay out in all of the seasons. My nieces like them because they have huge platforms

That bolt sticking out the front scares me a bit. Would you consider using a carriage bolt to secure the strap? Would need to customize the a hole to seat it securely.

Again, very nice work

I can get 23-24 feet with 4 Lone Wolf sticks (3 steps per stick).

Make sure you tape them well. Even with the foam insulation, they are loud when they hit something metal.

I also prefer the 3 step as the longer stick and extra weight gives a little more stability coming down.

My guess is the 2 step is easier to get a flush fit to the tree

I would leave off the notches on the top of the steps. Lowering the surface area such a small amount will not improve friction, just takes longer to machine. Instead, I would add a small but abrupt bump at the end of the step to help keep the boot from sliding off the end of the step.

If that shoulder screw is threaded into the tubing....don't. Not enough threads to hold it in aluminum. Go through both sides and use a nut.

The design should work fine if you use quality material and hardware, however, it doesn't appear that it allows for stacking or nesting.

I would leave off the notches on the top of the steps. Lowering the surface area such a small amount will not improve friction, just takes longer to machine. Instead, I would add a small but abrupt bump at the end of the step to help keep the boot from sliding off the end of the step.

If that shoulder screw is threaded into the tubing....don't. Not enough threads to hold it in aluminum. Go through both sides and use a nut.

The design should work fine if you use quality material and hardware, however, it doesn't appear that it allows for stacking or nesting.

I would leave off the notches on the top of the steps. Lowering the surface area such a small amount will not improve friction, just takes longer to machine. Instead, I would add a small but abrupt bump at the end of the step to help keep the boot from sliding off the end of the step.

If that shoulder screw is threaded into the tubing....don't. Not enough threads to hold it in aluminum. Go through both sides and use a nut.

The design should work fine if you use quality material and hardware, however, it doesn't appear that it allows for stacking or nesting.

Look at the exploded views....using nuts.

As far as software, my guess is Solidworks or Pro-E.

For Boone, I am not selling these things. I don't want to worry about the liabilty standpoint of selling or manufacturing them. On all of the components I used a FEA stress program. For those who want to do the FEA you have to know exacly how the load is applied to each member. I designed this to hold 400 lbs. Each climbing stick assembly weights 2.6 pounds with the camlock strap. I weigh 205 lbs.

Keep the ideas coming!!!

Here is a section view of how the shoulder bolt is fastened. I reamed the front of the tube(shoulder bolt shank)and used a close fit clearance hole for the rear so that the threads were not loose in the clearance hole. Then I used a nylon lock nut to contain it!

From the length of the bolt in the drawing compared to the prototype it looked as if the bolt was either threaded into the tubing or the nut was inside the tubing via an access hole. Either way bad.

Good job!!!!

Will they nest together? I can't tell from the drawings or prototype.

Way to go!!!!

Really neat!

I'd like to add a bit of constructive criiticism if you don't mind.

I hunt exclusively with hand on stands and sticks and love the concept. Quick, quiet, and light. Nothing beats them IMO.

The thing that I see in your design though, is that the steps are fixed without the ability to change sides. Bottom step to the right, top step to the left. This means that the stand will always need to be hung to the right of your verticle plane that the steps are on. If not this will mean that from your last step, which will have your left foot on the top step, you will have to try to use your right foot to place on the stand. Which, unless you're a contortionist, is quite difficult. :^)

As I have found, in the majority of cases to get up into the "arms" of the tree you need to be creative in stick placement.

Just my thoughts. Sticks look great, and some pretty impressive engineering there!

If I stay with a fixed step, would you think a double step would work at the top? Instead of the step going to the left, the step would go across as a double at the top. Just a thought. Similar to the attached 3 step design!

Yes, that would do it.

When you reach your top step, you'll just bring the other leg up stepping on the opposing step, shift your weight to that step and step off to your stand with the lead foot. Perfect!

The only other thing that may be of concern is where the strap bolt is located. I can't really tell from the picture, but I think youu might have a problem if it is exactly in the center of the stick. (that is exacly half-way between the top and bottom step) You might want to favor locating it in the top third of the stick.

Last week I killed a deer up in Michigan with my set up. I found an active trail exactly 1/2 way between two ladder stands that a gun hunting friend of mine had set up, which would have given me a 50 yard shot from either one. I grabbed my stand and sticks, set them up and had 6 deer come down the trail within the first hour in the stand. 5 yard shot and my hunt was over in a little over an hour period of time. Suffice it to say, it's a great system.

What do I think?

I think they look like an early Lone Wolf prototype, not significantly less expensive, and far less functional. The V brackets really need to pivot on the post or because of the irregular surfaces on a tree, one end or the other will most likely be only on one leg, or the whole thing will be hanging at some odd angle.

Looking around at other systems, everyone keeps looking for an "Edge" over the Lone Wolf's.. So far I don't think anyone has found it.

Everyone on this thread have some interest in hunting and finding better and easier ways to hunt. Constructive Critisizm is awesome, however negitive critisizm with no advise or solution is pathetic!!! I built these cheaply and they are for me! I am always looking for a betty way of doing something instead of complaining about how a product doesn't work well! No, this probably isn't a LW or MD but I made them and they work!

What Constructive Critisizm would you have to offer other than "rotating v brackets" that everyone knows that LW has!

I think this is a awesome! I just don't know how to make something like this cheaply? Any ideas? I think Muddy's sticks are the best on the market because of the cam lock system and the 20" step!!! Thanks for the link!

Thanks, I believe your right on the top step being 1 all the way across. Hunting in Michigan, is it hard because of the hunting pressure from other hunters? Do you use a Saddle with your sticks? John Eberhart is from Michigan as I'm sure you know!

How long have you worked with DRURY? Does anyone from Drury use climbing sticks or something similiar?

You'd want a larger safety factor there for commercial manufacture, to protect against the user with two fat lawyers on his shoulders, but in designing for personal use I would agree that the shear factor is not likely to be a problem.

Sounds like you've addressed the objection already concerning what appeared to be short standoffs.

I'd still like to see an inch or so wider step profile with that extra inch devoted to more hole spacing, just for general strength improvement at almost no additional cost in weight or expense. Just a greater safety factor for the bolt shear, and extra protection against torque distortion of the main beam in the area weakened by the two closely spaced holes, but I'd buy off on the design for personal use, with some serious jump testing on the prototype while very near the ground, to verify your figures and your trust in the component manufacturers.

I would still like to see an improvement in the strap attachment situation. As stated above by a couple of others, the strap would be better attached nearer the top step. Gravity will greatly aid in keeping the bottom step down there where it belongs, but the top step depends entirely on the strap, which will have much greater influence if positioned higher. A position nearer the top step would also lessen the likelihood of main beam distortion due to strap tightening, by placing the standoff more nearly in line with the force being applied.

The other problem with the strap attachment is the protruding bolt, as mentioned also by others above. It sure looks like it would uncomfortable to land on or against during an emergency such as a slip from an icy step, and it looks like it would be catch-all that would try to grab your belt, suspenders, various equipment straps, or even some other things that you might not want to be grabbed while descending the ladder. I liked the idea of a carriage bolt instead to get rid of the unneeded protrusion. Another option would be to simply take a turn around the main beam with the strap right up below the top step, and eliminate the bolt altogether. A cord or light bungee could retain the strap to that location for packing up and carrying.

Good luck with the project in any case, and please let us know how it turns out in testing and use.

Thanks, I am going to test the heck out of this and I will report back on how things go. I used 3/8" thick material with the steps/v bracket. I could get away with a 1/4" thick step instead. The carriage bolt sounds like it would work well. Are you talking about sticking them out the sides of the stick and just wrapping the strap around the carriage bolts?

Moment Load: See Attached!

WRT to carriage bolt/straps....I was just thinking of straight replacement of the protruding stripper bolt with a carriage bolt with the head lying nearly flat to the surface of the mainbeam. Could be through a hole in the strap, with a flat washer (fender washer) to prevent possible escape. But the idea then came to mind of just wrapping the strap around the mainbeam one turn, and retaining it in that position with a light device like a cord or a flat aluminum plate attached to the beam by a couple of screws or pop rivets just to keep it in place during transport more than to serve any stressed purpose, and I liked that even better.

Whatever the attachment method, I still like the attachment point up near the top step. Down in the center as shown, the beam is likely to bend if the strap is tightened very tight, and if it's not tightened very tight, there is more possibility for the standoffs to slip out position on a smooth tree under the weight transferred to them when the climber puts pressure on a step. Probably won't be a problem often, but should be safer and more secure if repositioned higher, both because of the position having better leverage on the beam and because the strap could be tightened more securely without deflecting the beam. Gravity will be your ally in retaining the bottom standoff in position on the tree, but will be your enemy with regard to holding the top standoff in place. The higher strap position would help greatly there.

I agree that 3/8" should be plenty safe for material thickness for steps and standoffs. The increased dimension I mentioned in step design was in width (or the vertical dimension in the position they're used in) rather than thickness. But you've satisfied me that your design is probably more than sufficient. I'd still use an inch wider stock for the steps myself, starting from a clean sheet of paper, but I like big safety margins as long as they don't cost much.

You'll need 4 of them to get as high as 3 Lone Wolfs. You saved $30.00, and gave up the versa button /fender washer as a retainer.. (I do like putting the bolt in double shear with the strap, which really eliminates bending it or distorting it in the tube..)

You gave up the versatility of the pivoting steps, and settled for an inferior finish.. Spray can vs anodize.

Please believe my constructive criticisms from the above post, that you will be happier if you figure out a way to let the tree bracket pivot and align it's self with the irregular surface of the tree.

As someone else said, I would put the shoulder bolt about 1/3 of the way from the top to keep it from acting like a door swivel, when you step on top and the brackets aren't dug in.

So if you are happy with your savings, and the cost of them, by all means go ahead, and enjoy yourself..

For whatever it's worth, I figure the 3rd design will be about 90%, and the last 10% may not be worth the effort. I'll give you a better than average first go, but your not done.

Also I am not impressed with the Muddy. The Cams are cute, both both are in some pretty heave shear load, which will in my estimation lead to slipping pretty early in life. I believe the TSMA (SP) felt the same way. 8 page instructions 6 of which are warnings, including instruction on how to tie off the tag end.

The last thing I want to do coming down in the dark with cold hands etc, is to mess with untying ropes.

Yours are better than that.

Duck, for what it's worth, I like the current location and use of the shoulder bolt. If you move it higher there is a proportional lower force holding the lower V-bracket to the tree. Trust me, you don't ever want that lower bracket to leave the tree. And as you mentioned earlier, shoulder bolts are hardened (case hardened I believe) and carriage bolts are soft. I would thing that the threads of the carriage bolts would eat into the strap too. Perhaps you can shorten the shoulder bolt a little to minimize to snag potential????

I generally start climbing with my right foot. One of the trees I am hunting this fall I use two sticks to get to a major branch. Step on it.. rotate 90 degrees around the tree and do two more sticks. Because of stepping off of the second stick to the branch, I need to start with my left foot.

Boy is it handy to be able to flip those steps. Who knows what kind of tree you'll want to hang them on tomorrow.

My strength figures for the bolts were way low.

No problem with the bolts.

I'd still make the strap attachment changes described above, but am now satified that the rest is good to go.